Molina officially Golden
by mtzxc on Nov 5, 2008 4:12 PM EST
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PrintFrom StlCardinals.com:
"Dodgers pitcher Greg Maddux won his 18th National League Gold Glove on Wednesday, extending his own record for the honor.
Maddux, who also pitched for the Padres this year, broke Jim Kaat's record of 16 Gold Gloves in 2007.
Joining Maddux as repeat winners were shortstop Jimmy Rollins of the World Series champion Phillies and third baseman David Wright and outfielder Carlos Beltran of the Mets.
It's the third straight Gold Glove for Beltran, the Mets center fielder. Rollins and Wright won for the first time in 2007.
The rest of the NL winners were tabbed for the first time: Yadier Molina of the Cardinals at catcher, Adrian Gonzalez of the Padres at first base, Brandon Phillips of the Reds at second base and Nate McLouth of the Pirates and Shane Victorino of the Phillies in the outfield.
The American League winners will be anounced on Thursday."
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Adrian gonzalez
-6 by +/- (pujols +20),
.697 RZR with 35 OOZ (pujols .850 with 52 OOZ)
Probably not as bad of a deal as Chase utley got, though at least phillips is in the top 3 2Bmen in the league. Gonzalez is well below average.
Nate McLouth was an awful pick, as well, at the expense of (imho) Brian Giles.
the enemy's gate is down.
Pujols
Pujols also had the best ZR and RF in baseball at 1B. His F% was identical to Gonzalez’s.
Does anyone know what the hell the writers use to measure these things?
they use objective measures
such as other voted-upon awards, playing the game the right way, doing little things, popular concensus, etc.
I thought part of it was how good of a hitter you are
Or wait, maybe it’s only if you’re a passable hitter, but how good you are once you’re passable doesn’t matter.
Ah, who the **** knows. How much longer before the old-timer writers all die off and we can move on to an age where things like statistics carry some weight in important decisions?
Especially doing little things
as opposed to big things, like Pujols.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 5, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Come ON Mojo!!!
They use the best system of all, the most objective, the most awesome-y one…
The dartboard!!! Duh!!! How DARE you question the dartboard??? Why don’t you go do…something…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
EXACTLY!!!
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
what about rollins at SS?
surely there was a better fielding shortstop in the NL than rollins.
and i don’t get the 1B choice. hasn’t it been proven that the two best ways to win a gold glove are 1) to have won it in the past and 2) to be a good hitter. shouldn’t albert have this wrapped up for those reasons, let alone because he actually deserved it???
rollins had the best +/- in baseball for ss
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
wow! i honestly would not have thought that. ok, so i take it back about rollins. i guess that's defensible.
although +/- is only one stat…
He's the best fielder for his position
at any position, in all of baseball. He hits okay, too.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 5, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, Sleepy...
I was just about to look these stats up. And they are just as telling as I suspected.
Just further proof that Albert
is the most underrated defensive player in the league……..
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
I'm no fan of this trend
Pujols not winning the awards he deserves…
Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"
I don't mid it
him not getting a meaningless award means that he is that much cheaper to re-sign.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Do you really think
he’ll be any cheaper to re-sign because he doesn’t have two GG’s? There’s already talk that he is worth $41 million a year. Barring serious injury, that ain’t gonna change…
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
by RunninRedbird on Nov 6, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
The Gold Gloves, not so much
but if he had four or five MVPs by now, instead of one, he would definitely be worth more money now than he would otherwise be.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Agreed
But I still think even if he doesn’t have the MVP’s accumulated by then he would still command the largest salary of any player to ever hit the FA market, if he ever does.
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
by RunninRedbird on Nov 7, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
How did Glaus stack up to Wright? I was thinking Troy had the better year.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
He was better
Significantly, I think.
Feliz was probably better, too, but played a lot less.
Glaus may have gotten hosed…can someone who knows where to find them post the RZR, +/-, and OOZ stats for the 3B candidates?
wright was better by RZR
RZR .714 w/56 OOZ for wright, .698 W/37 for glaus. link
OTOH Wright is a +3 by +/-, with Glaus a +6. Wright ranks 16 in the ML by +/-, glaus 13, with the top 8 all being AL players.
the enemy's gate is down.
Hmmm
Interesting. For some reason I had it in my mind that Glaus’ RZR was significantly better than Wright’s.
Wright’s OOZ is pretty damn solid, too, FWIW.
Just so you know, the writers don’t vote on the GG and SS. It is the coaches and managers. So you can’t complain that the writers screwed up…blame Tony! lol.
I think they're less qualified to vote on other players sometimes
Because they only get to see them a few times a year. If David Wright made some spectacular plays, and he did, that’s the stuff you remember, not how good he is over a long season. They’re dealing with only what they see.
You win Gold Gloves based on reputation — it has very little to do with how good you are defensively, which is why Ryne Sandberg possesses any Gold Gloves at all.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Well, if that's it then why the hell does
Maddux keep winning? How many times do other coaches see him pitch? For that matter, how many chances does he get a game? He’s only in what, an average of seven innings, max?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 5, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
inherited position
this doesn’t explain how he won it the first time, but sometimes the truth is paradoxical. and the gold glove award is truth, there is no questioning.
Don't copy articles straight
Please modify the post to contain a link to the story and some commentary or else it might have to be deleted. I hate being “that guy” but I do think we need to maintain a good quality of Fanposts.
Thanks for being that guy
somebody had to say it eventually…
Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"
I hope I'm wrong...
and getting screwed out of a Gold Glove (again) isn’t even a good barometer, but I have a feeling we’ll all be up in arms when the MVP is announced later this month. Sure, Albert has won a good deal of secondary awards during his career so far, but the major awards? A Rookie of the Year, a sinlge MVP, and a single Gold Glove…that’s all he has to show for 8 years of being the best player on the planet. So I hope I’m wrong, but I won’t be shocked in the least if the screw job comes again…
I'm >50% sure that the writers are going to give it to Howard
He heated up in September for the playoff push and led the majors in the all-important homers and RBIs. Prepare for disappointment…
I think the testament to how "valuble" Howard was
was the playoffs he does jack didly S*@# and the Phillies win the World Series
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 6, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
How about McLouth
Check here to see exactly how bad he was. Say, exactly the opposite of golden?
Just can’t wait til tomorrow when Jeter gets his GG. Not a more deserving player in baseball.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
it's about freaking time
congrats Yadda. it is long over due.
oh & how the hell do the players & coaches not pick Santa & The Mang? seriously, do they even pay attention to the games they are playing?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I think Glaus's range is just so limited in comparison
that he wasn’t even up for comparison. It’s not really fair, he does the best he can with his body…but there it is. He’s not a leopard like Rolen.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 5, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Though he certainly looked Rolen-like a lot this year
He’s as nifty with the glove as I’ve seen (can we give him the award King of the Short Hop?), he’s just carrying a big load.
In any case, I’ve been nothing but pleasantly surprised with his glove, so I’m still happy.
congrats
To Yadi for winning in his worst (yet still deserving) defensive year.
To Nate the Mouth for leading the league in +/- for centerfielders, or wait, i mean being the worst, and still winning a gold glove.
To Rawlings for giving out, what is now, most meaningless award of the award season. One which, unfortunately, has to degrade the memory of past defensive wizards, like, The Wizard himself and Frank Robinson.
Defensive wizard?
Frank Robinson won 1 gold glove.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Nov 5, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
mclouth made that throw in the all star game though
which if thats all it takes, then ank shoulda won with those two outstanding throws at coors. but then again it wasn’t in the all star game.
Smell the Glove
a throw in an exhibition game makes him eligible?
that’s totally lame. i hereby hate all non-SABR-type-internet awards until further notice!
It is "Play of the year"
the throw in the ASG is one of them while the throws in Col are not….makes no sense
it's really frustrating
the general perception/importance of the all-star game is an issue for me that is very frustrating. why isn’t it just a fun, exhibition game? is that not good enough? if they want people to watch it they should find ways to make it more entertaining, not more “important”. McClouth makes a good throw, so now he’s a gold glover instead of a bad fielder. Uggla has a crappy day, so now he’s completely terrible at fielding instead of acceptably mediocre. blah! some people rationalize this stupidity by saying things like “it’s a high-intensity situation, a big-game atmosphere, like the playoffs”, when the exact opposite should be true. it is only important artificially because Selig made it “count” for something. but that’s just my opinion, i could be wrong…
skip the frustration
there isn’t any evidence anywhere that his great throw in the ASG had anything to do with his gold glove. He’s got great raw numbers defensively. The “bad fielder” thing comes only from his relatively low totals of BIZ as near as I can tell. A variety of things other than bad defense can explain that. He also got to balls out of his zone at a higher rate that Carlos Beltran. That is odd considering he’s not booting balls and supposedly not getting to closer balls.
I agree with skipping the home field advantage for the all star game win though.
are you talking about mclouth?
Mclouth was a solid -40 in CF this year. Beltran was +24, so that is 64 extra bases given up in PIT that wouldn’t be in NY. That is just insane; his pitchers must hate having him out there. Also, not sure how you can say he has a higher OOZ rate, either, as beltran caught 111 balls out of zone with 332 BIZ, while McLouth caught 87 OOZ with 338 BIZ. Unless you are talking about a different system.
Mclouth was dead last in both +/- and RZR among qualified CF’s, and if you don’t trust defensive metrics, how about the fact that we on this forum made a point of making fun of his defense after only seeing him play a few games? It is amazing that he could possibly even be in the discussion for gold glove.
I guess there is one conspiracy theory that explains this- if opposing managers vote him a “gold glove”, he might be less likely moved to RF where he belongs, thus helping the guys who voted for him win games against his team. Man, these MLB managers are clever…
the enemy's gate is down.
sure I'm talking about the same system
I was looking at number of OOZ plays and was thinking of Cameron as I was comparing several – my error. But think about this, McLouth had 87 OOZ plays for a guy who supposedly lacks range. At least if you believe the raw data. Does that make sense to you?
The -40 and +24 thing is an estimate based on BIS or STATS data. Looking at McLouth’s raw numbers, somehow he’s not getting to balls close to him, getting to balls further out and not dropping balls.
And he received the award as an outfielder not a centerfielder.
I don’t buy the theory that the managers and coaches of the NL are mostly rubes kept there by a bunch of billionaires for no good reason when they could hire mathematicians who don’t even have to see the players and could run the teams better.
i don't necessarily disagree with the gist of what you are saying
TLR has to make dozens of decisions in a very short time frame that we have hours and hours to second-guess. it’s easy to argue that a given decision wasn’t the optimal decision when you have 30 minutes between innings to make a spreadsheet, but when you are on the spot, with all hell breaking loose around you and some 8 year old kid just dropped his ice cream on your head and you have to make a pitching change, it’s not that easy to remember how many times you’ve used KMC this month. TLR is probably a better manager than any of us would be.
But TLR would himself be a better manager if he was better at math. I have no doubt of this.
the enemy's gate is down.
the spreadsheet decisions
adequate time or not they may not be correct. Most formulas by their nature can’t include every factor. Even if they’re completely correct, the raw data, at least for defense is crude and unscientific.
Like I said, supposedly McLouth lacks range but got to 87 balls out of his zone, more than one every game. How do you think that’s possible.
well, first off
87 is one every 1.86 games, not “more than one every game” ;)
And the best players at his position got to more in-the-zone balls that he did, as well as more out-of-zone balls. The point of the GG is to give it to the best players at the position, not the guy who doesn’t catch 20 balls hit in his direction and who knows how many balls just outside of his direction over the course of the year.
I don’t know; mclouth was visibly, obviously struggling in CF in the 12 or so games against the cardinals that I saw this year. We made fun of his defensive abilities in game threads, and at the end of the year the numbers backed up our observations, and he won a gold glove. I find this funny.
But I also feel sorry for guys like Giles, who are truly elite defenders, and who might have made the HOF if managers had been better at evaluating defense when voting for GG’s.
the enemy's gate is down.
you consistently prove the preview function
isn’t enough to help me.
I saw all the Pirates games against the Brewers including the one where he made an error. I didn’t see him struggle. Coming up through the minors he was considered a good to excellent defender. The people who gave the GG are the coaches and managers. I don’t buy that they’re all confused and incompetent.
The only two NL CFs who made more OOZ plays were Carlos Beltran and Chris Young. Two.
The numbers also provide zero information how many balls were close to him, rather they show how many balls that were judged by someone looking at a video monitor to have landed in rigidly assigned zone definitions. Putting aside the numerous distortions possible from the technical collection of data, the fact that there isn’t correction for where the fielder plays provides an obvious factor in the results.
McLouth plays shallow. The only discussion I’ve come across that even considered that known flaws may have a significant influence was over at royalsreview. Elsewhere I’ve seen them accepted with almost cult like devotion.
Consider JJ Hardy. The metrics had him as an average fielder and some had him not moving well to the middle. When they came out, even Brewers fans who watched him all the time would repeat the estimation of the metrics. This year the numbers say he’s great, but really he’s pretty much the same. And hey, what do you know, the Brewers play a lot of infield shifts. JJ rocked in OOZ plays. Now some metrics say he isn’t as good moving to the other side. Another known flaw, in the metrics, influence of adjacent players affected those numbers. Last year Braun played 3rd and this year it was mostly 2 guys who ranged heavily to the middle. JJ was never anywhere near as bad as he was made out to be and while a great infielder, he probably doesn’t have as great a range as the numbers make out this year.
Braun is another. He suh-moked the competition in OOZ plays. He has great range. Is he a GGer? He’s really quite good, but no he’s not. His numbers are produced by being an excellent athlete and playing deep.
well, i admit i mentioned the gold glove,
but my original point was about the all-star game. even if i’m wrong about it having something to do with the gold glove, which is unprovable, i still say a throw in an exhibition game shouldn’t be included in that silly voted-upon “this year in baseball” thing. Ankiel’s dual throws in Colorado were ridiculous. and i of course stand by everything else about the all-star game as well.
jo-el
I thought piniero at least deserved some consideration. He made a lot of really slick fielding plays this past season.
Congrats, Yadi
It was mentioned before, but if you’re going to make a fan post it needs to be mostly commentary and not cut and paste. That’s more of a fan shot.
And Gonzalez is a wrong pick, but not an egregious one. Derrek Lee winning again would have been egregious, if Derek Jeter wins another GG, that would be egregious…Brandon Phillips winning is also egregious.
I think that Utley is very very underrated defensively by many people. The dude is flat out awesome there. His instincts, hands, arm, general ability to play baseball are all outstanding.
Finally, I wonder if the pitcher GG is just a matter of laziness…was Greg Maddux really the best defensive pitcher in the NL, and has he been for 18 straight years? I don’t know…he’s clearly outstanding, but isn’t it possible that someone was better somewhere in there?
Anywho, I’m glad one of our guys won one, but it’s still kind of a silly award.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2008 5:44 PM EST reply actions
lee is much better than gonzalez
so it would have to have been less egregious if he won, right?
the enemy's gate is down.
Yeah ok, I agree
Lee’s RZR and OOZ are higher…
…I f’ed up, hang me. Seriously. I was seduced by the raw beauty of Gonzalez’s play over the ugly, yet effective way Lee plays. I have become Plaschke/Paige/insertyourfavoritepoorsportswritingpunchbag…
Now, if Ryan Howard had won…I think this Ryan Howard is a better fielder than the one who plays for the Phillies.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2008 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
You know what, screw it...
Pujols losing was egregious…I’ve thought about that over the past ten minutes and I think it is now so…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
You know THAT Ryan Howard...
is named after the REAL Ryan Howard, right? When “The Office” launched, the real Ryan Howard was doing his whole “lots of homers, even more K’s, murderer of defense, MVP larceny” routine for the Phillies’ AAA affiliate in Scranton. The character was apparently named for him as some sort of shout out.
Yes, I'd heard that...
…that Ryan Howard is also the counterpart of Ricky Howard on the UK version, so it’s convenient that a guy named Howard was playiing for Scranton-Wilkes Barre at the time.
What a great show, I may add…and it’s on tonight too.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 6, 2008 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
way to go yadi
but the pujols snub in unacceptable.
maybe it will keep his price tag down when we start talking extension though
Worst Gold Gloves EVAR
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
Except for, you know, that whole Yadi thing...
Pujols for Secretary of Defense.
by davethebutcher on Nov 5, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
the real gold gloves
here would be my pick
P- Maddux
C-Yadi
1b- Pujols
2b- Utley
3b- Glaus
OF- Beltran, Schumacher, Victorino
I agree except Maddux.
I happen to think Peavy deserves the award for pitchers. He is a terrific fielder, picks up that ball like it offends him for being on the field……..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Schu is good
But he just didn’t play enough.
I think Chris Young deserved the last NL award over McLouth. I have no issue with Victorino or Beltran.
Skip isn't good....
By just about any fielding stats I’ve seen, he’s pretty average at best
He he had qualified, he would have been between Adam Dunn and Ryan Braun in RFR in LF
In CF, he’d be middle of the pack. Though at least ahead of Nate McLouth (who was dead last)
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro
congratulations Yadier
A long time coming, and probably bittersweet too. (There’s a fanpost simmering, but I’ll wait till he’s back on the field, be it WBC or spring training.)
Here’s to Yadi matching or bettering his brother Bengie’s collection.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Has AP pissed off other coaches & players?
Albert wasn’t elected by the players for the all-star game and the managers/coaches choose someone else on the gold glove again.
they selected him for best player in the MLBPA awards
didnt they or am i dreaming that up? Oops it was the Sporting News but still voted on by his peers.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Wilson did well but only played in 87 games this year
and his +/- was worse than Izz2, Hardy, Escobar, and Rollins who all played full seasons.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
How about the lead glove awads?
Two obvious nominees – Uggla at 2nd and Duncan wherever he plays. . . . Others?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Uggla isn't that bad...
he has that reputation for some reason but a the very worst he is at least average, +/- is +4
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
and the great Kelly Johnson
Is a -5 in the field. And according to the rankings over at BTB, he’s only 7 runs better than our own Kennedy
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
shockingly
he was actually average by +/- in 2006- I thought he was much worse than that. In 2007 he was -19, and then he was +4 this year.
The storyline I’ve been hearing is that “he improved this year”, but it seems he may have just bounced back.
the enemy's gate is down.
I would think Ryan Braun might make the list.
I thought Martin was pretty good with the glove, though.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
Ryan Braun
He didn’t make an error all season and he was plus 2 on the +/- rating
Russel Martin through out just 23 of 92 would be basesteelers, yuck
Better than lead glove, "Air Glove"
Trophy being a two-headed player – Dick Stuart on one side and Jose Canseco on the other. Ball bouncing off the head of the latter. Shudder to think of the 09 Birds with Floppy and Edgar up the middle with Miles in reserve. . . .. Might be a Hall of Shame combination. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Pujols for MVP?
Anyone read John Donovan’s article over at SI.com? He picks Pujols hands down for MVP. That’s nice and all, but how can you possibly figure he wins MVP when he got completely screwed out of a “sure-thing” Gold Glove?
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