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Election Day Notes

Is there anything happening today? There are no trades or even fresh trade rumors, no free agent breakthroughs, no—

Well, okay, there's that

The big (baseball) news: Greg Maddux is probably done, and it's a low-key end to a career that never demanded the sensationalism it seemed to deserve. In 1994 and 1995, those absurd low-ERA years he'll be best remembered for, he went 35-8 with 20 complete games and six shutouts. He averaged nearly eight innings a start; he struck out 337 and walked 54; he allowed twelve home runs in 411 innings. That's not great command, it's perfect command. It's hitting every corner with your crappy fastball and putting that weird back-up change-up just out of reach for hundreds of different hitters, all with different weak spots. I's a Walter Johnson season pulled out of the Dead Ball era and spread out over two of the livest seasons of all time.

He didn't return triumphantly to the Braves, and he didn't fulfill our sports fan urges and go out on top, so it wouldn't have been right if he'd held a tearful press conference or gone out on a one-last-season tour. So of course this is how Greg Maddux would retire: through his agent, a few weeks after his season was over. 

Of course there's one thing that makes this more Maddux-ian than anything else: it overshadows something really impressive that his brother just did. It's okay, Mike: you'll always have the coolest mustache in the family.

Meanwhile, the GMs are in California for the GM Meetings. Not to be confused, he said, having just confused them himself, with the Winter Meetings, which are next month. Derrick Goold likes Aaron Heilman and Kevin Gregg, who both seem like reasonable mid-level trade targets. Heilman, in particular, with both starting and relieving on his resume, would fit this team, although his extreme control issues during 2008 are a real concern whether they're the harbinger of an injury or plain ineffectiveness.

Speaking of sudden-onset control problems, Izzy's going to test the market. For what it's worth I wouldn't mind the Cardinals taking a chance on Isringhausen, if they can bear to not give him the closer's role unless he's throwing fireballs in Spring Training. 

But as a Hot Stove spectator I hope they don't sign him immediately, if they plan on signing him—I'm really interested to see what his value is on the open market. Are there teams out there who haven't watched him appear lost for weeks at a time, who didn't see him land awkwardly on that hip and sail fastball after fastball high and outside, who think of him as a great potential bargain? Is there a fanbase, somewhere on SBN, that thinks about Izzy like we do about, say, Edgar Renteria? The idea fascinates me. 

Why is Matt Holliday still getting play as a possible Cardinals target? (Link goes to Strauss's article from yesterday.) Did I miss a week in which the Cardinals traded off all their outfield depth for middle infielders? Holliday is a great hitter, road stats be damned, but on a team where Colby Rasmus isn't guaranteed a job out of Spring Training but Adam Kennedy might be there's no urgent need to bring in another outfielder. An "impact bat", as the P-D sidebar terms it, would be fantastic, but they just don't come at the positions the Cardinals have available right now.

Maybe they could try this: a league-average bat is nearly as far above Cesar Izturis's 2008 season as Matt Holliday would be above Skip Schumaker's 2008 season. If the Cardinals find that guy it'll be a less impressive move, but probably more helpful. Now, uh, good luck with that.

Finally, Kelvin Jimenez was plucked off waivers by the Blue Jays. I don't dislike Kelvin Jimenez as a person, and I'm sure that, now that he's on another team, he will blossom into the relief ace that La Russa and Duncan at times appeared to think he was. But I've never been more confused about a relief pitcher—and what he was doing in the major leagues, at any given moment—than Kelvin Jimenez. I just never got it. 

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josh phelps

signed a minor league contract with giants, with a ST invite.

by ball in play on Nov 4, 2008 10:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

on that team

he could actually end up the best hitter, depending on how much you like Nate Schierholtz, which is some of the fainter praise I have ever handed out.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 4, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i’d pencil sandoval in for 600 ab’s at 1B and make him change my mind. phelps could be depth.

by ball in play on Nov 4, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I'm glad to see that.

He’s earned another chance. The Giants are in a much better position to do that than we were. He has had some major league success in the past; maybe he has one good year in him. That’s probably all the Giants want from him anyway.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Nov 4, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My thoughts on Matt Holiday exactly

i almost threw-up when i read that yesterday

by bearcatcardfan on Nov 4, 2008 10:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Me too.

I actually was involved in a few heated arguments about this when it was discussed mid-season. (back when people thought Ludwick would turn into a pumpkin by season’s end). Actually, I can’t think of a stupider move, except trading for Ortiz.

by Ray Lankford on Nov 4, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that would be one of the most stupid things to do in the offseason

is trade a bunch of potentially great players for one player who will probably not do as well outside of CO

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 4, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I always thought that Kelvin Jiminez would eventually become Juan Cruz.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 4, 2008 10:45 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wallace

Nice to see in the sidebar that Brett is hitting in the AFL now. Even nicer to see that the 3 run jack and 2 run double were off Clay Buchholz.

Not going to be able to keep Wallace down for long.

by paposse on Nov 4, 2008 10:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Like Alabama said:

You can’t keep a good man down.

. . . . unless you are a good man named Rasmus! (I kid, I kid)

by Ray Lankford on Nov 4, 2008 11:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On full assumption

I still think that his slow start was because he was back in Az and hanging out with friends off the field, I wouldn’t think of it as a slow start, and he seems to have settled out. Something of note, he’s practically error free in AFL thus far. (2 errors total, I think)

Cardinals Project 2009 - Ensure 100 More Years

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 4, 2008 11:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha

That strikes me as a pretty huge assumption.

by mojowo11 on Nov 4, 2008 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d say it’s a lot smaller of an assumption than one may think.

Cardinals Project 2009 - Ensure 100 More Years

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 4, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

John Sickels over at minorleagueball.com

Says that

2) A lot of the players here look tired, going through the motions more or less. The ones with the better work ethics and/or greater reserves of stamina and energy really stand out.

This is the longest season Wallace has ever played. So I just assume fatigue.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 4, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh I’m sure that’s part of it.

Cardinals Project 2009 - Ensure 100 More Years

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 4, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jimenez..

you know how there is always that ONE guy on the team you live and die with , that just makes your skin crawl when you hear the name being announced as he comes in the game?… Jimenez was that guy for me….
The last time I can remember having a similar feeling for a Cards player?….Estaban Yan! D’OH!

by Timbo02 on Nov 4, 2008 11:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Al Reyes

For a while Al Reyes was that guy for me even though he was probably far superior to those guys. For some reason his bad outings stuck with me.

by paposse on Nov 4, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess his bad ones must've been BAAAD!!!

in 2005 he pitched in 65 games totaling 67K’s against 20 BB’s only 30 Hits and a 2.15 ERA in 62.2 innings – better than 3:1 K:BB ratio WHIP was .80.

He only got in 12 games in 2004 – 11K’s, 2 BB’s, 3 Hits .75 ERA.

He was one of our best relievers when he was here and healthy…not sure why you trembled at his name.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 4, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Al Reyes & the bases loaded

I looked at this a while back and Al was absolutely horrid with the bases juiced. I don’t have the numbers handy, but I think he had 5 or 6 opportunities in that situation (all but maybe one in high leverage) and gave up 3 or more runs four times, at least. Just that one set of circumstances and it was his Kryptonite.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Nov 4, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brantley (98 version)

would come in and I’d go “oh great…extra innings.” Sure enough it happened all the time by way of the 2-run bomb.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Nov 4, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing was like Ricky Bottalico

I remain convinced despite the overwhelming statistical evidence that the Cardinals never once won a game that he entered.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Man our pen

was bad there for a while. I’m thinking of another guy goes by the name of Kent Mercker that scared me also.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Nov 4, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mercker

I do believe he is the last Cardinal pitcher to hit a grand slam tho.

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Nov 4, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mercker was pretty bad for the Cards...

but it wasn’t out of the pen he made 29 starts in ’98 posting 5.07 ERA.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 4, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh I know

I just was remembering pitchers that made me a little queasy.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Nov 4, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Javier Vazquez

Reading the local Chicago papers the Sox seem intent on trading him. They do need a centerfielder—I am wondering if Ankiel could be a starting point for a deal.

Vazquez is one of those pithcers that I think Duncan can help. His stuff is nasty, but he isn’t able to keep it together a whole year so his stats always look worse to me than the way he ptiched.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 4, 2008 11:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The problem with Javier Vazquez?

He’s bad.

No way in hell would I start with Ankiel. I’d probably start with LaRue and expand it to Luis Perdomo.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 4, 2008 11:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trade them Phelps.

I’m sure the giants won’t mind.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Nov 4, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bad? Only if career #3 starter type numbers are bad.

He’s got the most K’s in MLB since the start of the decade, has multiple seasons with ERA+ north of 120, has thrown 200+ innings 8 out of his 10 seasons, and has relatively no injury history to speak of. His contract runs through 2010 at $11.5M per year, and he has a limited no-trade clause that states that he can’t be traded to the AL or NL West, so that eliminates a couple of teams that could use him (Texas, Colorado).

He’s coming off a subpar year, so It’s possible we could steal him as kind of a need-for-need, salary dump type situation. I wouldn’t start with Ankiel, but would start with something like Boggs, Skip, and another mid-level position player and negotiate up.

I could see him having a lot of success in St. Louis, especially if Dunc can bring his gopher ball rate down similar to what he did with Lohse in 2008. That’s Vazquez’s big problem — he gives up a ton of taters.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

I think the home runs are part of it. I think a bigger part of it is that he has been overworked and misused a bit by Guillen. I think he suffers a lot of dead-arm streaks where he just isn’t that effective.

Really Ankiel, who we only have control of for one more year and is expendable, too much? I was thinking it would take Ankiel and a pitcher from the system like Herron for two years of a reasonably price #3 starter with some upside.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 4, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would think...

if we send Ankiel, we could dump Kennedy and all of his salary to Chicago as well (since we will be taking on all of Vazquez’s). The Sox are moving Alexei Ramirez to shortstop, and could use a 2B. I know they just signed Jayson Nix, but he is unproven at the ML level. Kennedy could be insurance for them. If we are able to dump Kennedy’s salary, that means that Vazquez would only cost 7.5 million this season and 11.5 next. Sounds like a pretty effective way to use payroll to me.

by Jumsy on Nov 4, 2008 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now we are thinking.

That sounds like a decent idea…

by BigJawnMize on Nov 4, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

unloading vazquez 11.5mil / 2 yrs contract, a year early, should have value to k williams (vazquez/kennedy/pineiro).
pineiro/kennedy doesn’t reclaim vazquez player value lost for 2 yrs. pineiro/kennedy/ankiel does.
cast pineiro/kennedy/schumaker out there first, but agree to a pineiro/kennedy/ankiel, if they will.

vazquez as the 4th, carpenter/mcclellan/thompson/boggs as 5th, as an improvement to the 08 staff. 3 roster spots cleared, one used.
ankiels 3 mil for 09 is reclaimed (arb3 estimate), with the white sox having the opportunity to extend a core player in ankiel, with vazquez $ freed up for 2010.

vazquez possible IP in 09 and 2010, helps give stl SP depth through the carpenter contract.
the current pineiro/kennedy budget $ would then be committed to vazquez in 09 and 2010, which gave the white sox salary relief from a player they chose to be the scapegoat.
ankiels arb3 $, and possible 2010,11, 12 extension $, could now be used towards wellemeyer, who is a member of ankiels FA class.

with dave duncan, carpenter status and stl team defense factored into any vazquez acquisition, i like it.

by ball in play on Nov 5, 2008 10:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Home Runs in Vazquez's home parks

2005 – Chase Field is #5 in HRs
2006 – US Cellualr is #9 in HRs
2007 – US Cellular is #9 in HRs
2008 – US Cellular is #2 in HRs

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Nov 4, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well...

part of US Cellulars numbers is the fact that the White Sox and all their sluggers play there.

Still, I think Javy would be a good pickup to pitch in Busch III. We are always talking about pitchers that miss bats as hard to find, and he misses a ton of them every year. He’s been in the top 5 in whatever league he’s pitching in strikeouts almost every year of his career.

I’d much rather pay him $11.5M for the next two years than to pay Burnett and his shaky injury history $15M per over the next 4-5 years.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i might be warming up to javy as well...

Busch III tends to help pitchers, right? although I don’t know if the actual homerun rates are that different because i know little about the specifics of the effect. and it would be fun to have a starter who struck out a ton of guys.

by mattybobo on Nov 4, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh, and if he ends up being a ~200 inning, average-pitching horse

that wouldn’t be too bad. especially if we lose looper.

by mattybobo on Nov 4, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who's your long reliever that's ready every 5th day?

Vasquez can’t get past the 5th inning. It makes Guillen insane.

by sdrone on Nov 4, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

200 innings...

…is till 200 innings.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 4, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

right

he pitched 208 innings in 33 starts. thats about 6 and a third innings per game. if he is pitching 5 inning games then he must also be pitching 7 inning games.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Nov 4, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Vazquez was worth a lot more than you think

Some rough Estimates here. He was worth 49.2 FIPRAR last year. So some math here 49.2/9.56 * $4.4 = $22.64 mil minus the $11.5 mil he made in 08. Than you can see he was actually worth $11.14 mil more than he actually got paid.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 4, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ehhhhh

His ERA has been worse than his FIP 9 out of 11 years, I’d venture to say for whatever reason, FIP doesn’t really capture Javier Vazquez. Doesn’t mean he isn’t valuable, he just isn’t as valuable as FIP would say.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True

Than just using his RAR of 34.6. He is still worth $15.92 million last year.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 4, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Any HOF voter...

who doesn’t vote for Maddux first-ballot in 5 years should be shot.

by mikedallas45 on Nov 4, 2008 11:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I need a new player to pick on from the 40 man roster

with Jimenez departing and Aaron Miles sucking less.

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2008 12:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You could always go with...

Kennedy, but he is too unpopular to meet your normal standards I think.

And you always have Flores.

by StLHugo on Nov 4, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, perhaps you've forgotten about

Joel Piniero? Mike “Get the bus running, we’ll be there in a second” Parisi?

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 4, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh

Just seeing Pinata’s name makes me cringe.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Nov 4, 2008 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who?

Dont ruin my offseason by answering.

by Evilfrog on Nov 4, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Another good candidate

In the offseason, I block off all the crappy players from my mind. Especially the ones we overpay for.

Any dark horse candiates?

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Charlie Manning

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Nov 4, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i have a feeling

that felipe lopez will be that man in 2009.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 7:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't tell you

how happy I am that Jimenez is gone. I would’ve never disliked the guy if he wasn’t up in the major so much, but he was, and for that reason, I am very happy to see him gone. Let’s hope they replace him with someone worthwhile.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Nov 4, 2008 12:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

can jm the gm fix ss?

1) will he choose a high level FA signing for 3-4 years?—doubt it.
2) a mid level FA, super utility type, for 2yrs/9 mil?—maybe, would give kozma / vazquez 2 yrs to develop.
3) or trade for a quality defender with a project bat, at 1 yr/5mil difference?—maybe, but with offensive risk.
(probably a shorter term patch, that would need addressing next offseason).
4) find a ss prospect in trade, by trading down a FA to be. (edmonds / freese type deal)

you’re up, jm. sho-me

by ball in play on Nov 4, 2008 12:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

that is pretty impressive

there are plenty of effective ways to demonstrate how awesome albert is, but Chone’s little equation there is pretty staggering. i don’t want to spoil it though.
i was checking some stuff on b-ref after i read that, and i realized again (for the first time!) that the lowest OPS+ albert has ever posted in any of his years in mlb is 151. that’s his lowest OPS+. his lowest ever. 151.

by mattybobo on Nov 4, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what is with

all these people doing good work and posting it on blogspot?

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'll miss Mad Dog.

in his prime, every time he took the mound, he had the chance to pitch a no hitter. not too many pitchers in the history of baseball can say that.

i only wish he would have pitched for the Cards. to say he was a master while standing on the mound is a major understatement. the guy was simply amazing with a ball in his hands.

if he ever becomes as good of pitching coach as he was a pitcher, i only hope he’s our pitching coach.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 4, 2008 12:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yea, but

having your own personal strike didn’t hurt

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Nov 4, 2008 8:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maddux

I loved when, before he got contacts, he’d wear those glasses off the field ..and he looked like some geeky CPA…then he’d hit the mound and just blow guys away with pitches that lived on the corners….the guy was a beast.

by Timbo02 on Nov 4, 2008 12:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Best write up on Maddux I've ever read

This ESPN article by Tim Keown is such a delight to read. It is a story of a man who calls games from the dugout and tests his own cliches with a Mythbusters like precision. If you have a little time it is something you will probably be telling people about for the next week.

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Nov 4, 2008 1:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That is a very good one

Here is another one, by Joe Posnanski of the KC Star.

BTW…is there any chance the P-D could get Posnanski to write for them? He’s wasting away covering the horribly-run Royals, a franchise that just added a guy who is guaranteed to get out roughly 3.8 times (or more) out of 10 PA’s and will likely do no better than an .820 OPS at a corner, blocking either Billy Butler and Kila Ka’aihue. A franchise that is willing to play Tony Pena, Jr. b/c of a slick glove, never mind his OPS+ of FIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if he got out 3.8 times out of 10 PA's

his on base percentage would be .620. who wouldn’t want that?

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 4, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DOH!!!

Gotta love oversight…thanks for pointing that one out. Long day!

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i knew

something didn’t seem right about that. what did you mean to say?

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 4, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

I was trying to say that his optimistic OBP is .320, and probably more like .310 or so. Which is awful obviously.

I think what I meant to say was he is guaranteed to make an out roughly 6.8 times out of 10, or NOT make an out 3.2 times out of 10. I think they wound up getting smashed together into some kind of weird statement that makes no damn sense.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for that

I wish that when I was younger (I’m 19), when Maddux was in his prime, that I realized how dominant he was. Those weird stats that Posnanski gives about Mad-dog are absolutely _______!!!!! (I can’t think of an adjective.) Madduxian?

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Nov 4, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem!

Posnanski is awesome. The dude can flat out write…depending on the situation he can be serious, funny, reflective, indignant, awestruck, whatever. He makes Bernie and Gordo look like 17 year old kids writing for the school newspaper.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bernie doesn't need much help looking like a 17 year old kid writing

I have always thought he was useless.

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Nov 4, 2008 5:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait...

…you mean you don’t like every single column to be some kind of class warfare deal? Gosh, my world is shaken…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or...

…seeing Don Tony typed…

…forgot to tack that one into the previous post.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I freakin' hate

the “Don Tony” bullsh*t.

Bernie writes flatulence.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Nov 4, 2008 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

New Trade

Bernie Miklazkksksasz, a plate of t-ravs, and a StL Arch snowglobe for Joe Posnanski.

Let’s do it StL P-D.

I keeed. I keed.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Nov 4, 2008 8:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad he's retiring one win ahead of Clemens.

Since it should be Maddux and Junior going down as the best hitter and pitcher of their generation.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Nov 4, 2008 2:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bonds was better than Griffey pre-roids

And Griffey brought the injuries on himself by coasting on talent

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're forgetting a few things

Griffey played a premium defensive position, and was the best in baseball at that position for nearly a decade. Bonds was an above average left fielder for the first 10-12 years of his career, but he was never the defensive great that Griffey was.

I agree that Bonds was a better hitter late in his career, but he wasn’t hampered by a lot of injuries until very, very late in his career (and he took steroids as well). If you look at their average seasons prior to 1998, when Griffey started being banged up every year, they’re much more comparable.

And Griffey brought the injuries on himself by coasting on talent

That’s a horrible thing to say about a guy who suffered a broken wrist while crashing into a wall making a catch, broke the hamate bone in his hand taking a swing, and had numerous leg injuries that can’t be attributed to being out of shape (torn hamstrings happen to the most highly tuned athletes in the world) that severely hampered his ability to play at a high level. The guy sold out for his team for years while they were horrible and couldn’t put a decent team around him, which led to a number of his injuries. I don’t ever remember Barry crashing into walls on defense or selling out his body to make plays on the bases. Ever. Don’t tear down a guy just because he got hurt — it certainly wasn’t because of lack of effort on his part.

Do I think that Barry is a better player? Probably, if you twist my arm. But Ken Griffey is most certainly the better person — so saying things that aren’t true about him is a terrible thing to do.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with about everything you said...

…Except that Bonds was ALWAYS a better hitter. If you adjust for positional factors and what not, it becomes closer…But Bonds was just better offensively.

Here are their OPS+ numbers between 1991-99:

Griffey: 155,149,171,170,122,153,165,150,139
Bonds: 160,205,204,183,168,188,170,178,155

Griffey played largely in the Kingdome, a neutral to hitter friendly park, while Bonds played in Candlestick, a hitter’s graveyard to neutral park.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

griffey vs bonds (and some other guy who is a pretty good hitter)

presented graphically, in terms of RC/27 and age-season, courtesy of fangraphs.com:

Bonds diverges radically following their age-25 seasons. It’s really never close after that.

Danup- click for a comparison including frank thomas. Don’t want to spam with pictures.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the pretty colors!

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Nov 4, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 4, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oops

link above was batting average, which isn’t useful. here is RC/27. Thomas blew them all away through age 28, except for albert.

Thomas vs Pujols

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting bug

wonder why fangraphs has data for ken griffey’s age 39, 40, 41 years? What do they know that we don’t know?

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 4:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ahaa

lets try it again, using ken griffey Jr and not ken griffey, sr. Lol.

Jr is a bit more competitive with barry and frank.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What kind of idiot creates a graph

and has half the graph be off the grid?

Change the scale magic math man!

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 4, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say that's a pretty accurate way to describe Bonds' juiced years though

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There's so many stories of Griffey uhh....coasting

He’s a good guy, been good for the game, but he didn’t take care of himself. Whether the injuries were a direct result who knows—-I overstated that, but those things teeeeennnnd to happen when you don’t like stretching before the game…

And Bonds was better defensive position be damned, Bonds average season from 88-98 (57.8 batting runs) was about as good as Griffey’s best season (60.8 batting runs)—-and 18 runs better than Griffey’s average from 90-99 (40.1). Bonds led the league in batting runs 5 times during that time finishing top two 8 of 9 years (the 9th was measly 4th place), Griffey topped out at 3rd and finished top five 5 times.

I know Gold Gloves are a joke, but for someone as media hated as Bonds it’s a little more believable that he was pretty good winning 8 GGs. Bonds was better for longer. He’s an ass, he juiced (cough and was 100x better than anyone else who was juicing but that’s a different argument coughcough) but he was better.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't say he wasn't better

I just said that it’s a whole lot closer than what you made it sound like initially.

All that said, I’d much rather root for Ken Griffey Jr. than Barry Bonds any day.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 10:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All I said was Bonds was better than Griffey

2nd part was what was overstated but I’d still say it’s likely a different story if he does the behind the scenes work.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what about

my man frank thomas? His numbers before he lost the one step he had are just outrageous.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 4, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When people say...

…that no one started their career like Albert Pujols, I say eu contraire. Frank Thomas was pretty doggone close, and one could argue better.

Frank Thomas was a monster of a hitter, plain and simple. If he’s not a first-ballot HOFer, I don’t know what someone would have to do.

To anyone who doesn’t believe me regarding Frank v. Albert, just look at these:

The Big Hurt
El Hombre

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Big Hurt was an absolute monster

in his first 10 or so years. Great batting eye. He’s certainly a sure-fire Hall of Famer. I think Pujols surpasses him as an all around player though (so far anyway) because he certainly never fielded like Albert and he wasn’t the heads up baserunner as is El Hombre.

by nmstar on Nov 4, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and what is really sad

is that The Big Hurt should have been a Cardinal. Instead we drafted Paul Coleman. That still stings.

by nmstar on Nov 4, 2008 9:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Big Hurt vs El Hombre

Here’s the thing when comparing these two: Frank Thomas has seen a decline in production because of his inability to get his hands through on inside pitches, which was always his biggest asset when he was a monster hitter. He had very quick hands and could inside out the ball the other way similar to what Jeter does, only he could hit it out of the ballpark. When pitchers starting busting him inside, he became strictly a pull hitter, and his average and slugging took a hit.

IMO, Albert will never have this problem because he doesn’t rely on great bat speed — he’s much more reliant on great plate coverage and being able to hit any pitch using nearly the same swing plane. His swing is also very “quiet”, i.e. it has very little wasted motion. The Big Hurt’s swing had a ton of goofy motions in it when he was getting bat to ball, and I think once his reflexes started to go he saw a precipitous decline in his batting average and walk rate.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Orlando Cabrera

what is your opinion of signing Orlando Cabrera?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 4, 2008 2:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

currently overpriced. a super utility FA at half the cost, as a better investment.
if jm signs a punto type (4 mil?), rather than sign o. cabrerra (10-12mil?), 6 to 8 mil of budget $ is retained. which is better in 09, is a tossup for me.
0-cab does bring 160 starts, he may get his 12 mil per.

by ball in play on Nov 5, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reclamation project?

I’m thinking of Freddy Garcia of Detriot. Perhaps we can trade someone that they need? Do they need any rh relievers or a hard hitting lh first baseman that can moonlight as a left fielder? Would/Should Bryan Anderson make sense? Just curious.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Nov 4, 2008 3:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

"lh first baseman that can moonlight as a left fielder"

Are you talking about Duncan?

While we’re at it, let’s see if they’ll take Juan Encarnacion or any other severely injured player who might never play again…. Or maybe we could sign Mark Prior and then spin him to the Tigers in the same package?

I can’t wait until the day the trade proposals involving Chris Duncan cease to exist. Btw, when is the last time Chris Duncan hit anything “hard”? Two years ago?

btw, is Garcia even under contract with the Tigers?

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 4, 2008 4:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow

I mean you have been on this site for a while, but I thought you would obviously see that I was joking. That is the running joke around here about trading Duncan to SF for Matt Cain or some other far-fetched trade. I don’t follow other teams so closely as the Cards, so I am not sure what other teams need. My question however does merit some thought however. Freddy Garcia might be someone worth looking at but he is coming off an injury so I’m not sure what it would take to get him. Just because somebody has an idea that doesn’t line up with your beliefs doesn’t mean you need to ridicule it. This is a site for healthy debate about our favorite team.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Nov 4, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, I mis-understood your intention

Sue me.

The point is, there are people here who actually think Duncan is a legit trade piece. Sorry, I thought you were one of ‘em. I should have figured you weren’t serious, so once again I’ll apologize and I’ll be sure to keep the ridicule to a minimum.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 4, 2008 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carpenter goes under for Ulnar Nerve Transposition

Linky here Paletta just resuited the same stuff having done the exact same thing on Pujols. For those of you too lazy to hit the link, this ISN’T related to the shoulder nerve condition, this is separate. I’d assume this goes back to the setback he had during the year involving the ulnar nerve neuritis and guaranteeing that doesn’t happen again. From what I gather they frequently just do this when they do the Tommy John in the first place but such is the…luck…of the Cardinals with injuries.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 6:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Apparently he's also a knuckleballer [sic] now

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 4, 2008 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone know

If Carpenter smokes? I seem to remember someone somewhere saying it at some time.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 4, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hearing talk you would think so

man, does he have a LOW raspy voice or what…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Nov 5, 2008 8:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gdm called it in June

link

So glad we waited.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who pissed in my cheerios that day?

geesh, i have no idea why i was so angry.

hey scoot, why do you want to know if Carp smokes? what does that have to do with anything?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 4, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Smoking and Nicotine

Have some really adverse effects on healing processes within the body. Just curious to know if he does smoke. Don’t remember where I heard that one. But, if he does, then you can’t honestly say that he is doing everything possible to get healthy.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 4, 2008 9:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carp dips during games.......

I don’t know how much dip tobacco he uses outside of the ball park but Carp definitely uses dip tobacco. I have no idea if he smokes.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 4, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

Probably doesn’t matter one way or another. Just an interesting thought to me.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 4, 2008 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i've never heard that before dude

at least when it comes to this kind of healing. i’ve heard getting over the flu & other lung related illnesses is hard if you smoke. but not nerve or ligament injuries.

i’m not trying to discredit you scoot, i’ve just never heard that before.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 5, 2008 1:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

for whatever its worth

i smoke a pack a day.

last year i broke my elbow. the doc told me it would take 6-8 weeks to heal, but it healed in 4 weeks. he said he’d never seen that bone heal anywhere close to that fast.

maybe i’m just a freak. but as far as i know (not much), smoking doesn’t have a thing to do with healing. i could probably find just as much evidence to the contrary (none).

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 5, 2008 5:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sample size much?

Also, maybe instead of voodoo, smoking, L-arm or whatever other black magic, carpenter is just injury-prone.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Nov 5, 2008 7:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

See my post below

Apparently, either yes, you are some sort of freak, or the Dr. was off on his prognosis. How bad was the fracture? Prognosis is just a guess FWIW.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 5, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe you are Wolverine

Logan smokes and heals more quickly

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 5, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

good chuckle

by Knighttime on Nov 5, 2008 10:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The effect

is on bloodflow. Nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, so less blood means less healing. I can’t tie it in to the nerve healing, but ligaments and tendons, definitely. Blood flow is definitely important for healing of any structure, and the better the bloodflow, the faster the healing typically. And, as for bone, many studies have shown that smoking delays the healing process.

Also, a study done by Cecelia published in AORN Journal showed that patients who smoked who underwent surgery had a better outcome from the surgery if they stopped smoking for a period of 8 weeks before the procedure.

I understand its not as easy to see the direct effect that smoking has on the lungs in other tissues, but just because the effect isn’t direct in the other areas of the body doesn’t mean that there is no effect.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 5, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

reading that made me throw up a little bit

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 5, 2008 12:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

according to braves fans

that isn’t enough. Lol.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 5, 2008 3:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are these the same Braves fans...

who were ready to deal him for a bag of baseballs and some chewing tobacco two years ago?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 5, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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