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The Hot Corner is en fuego

Friday, Dan took a look at the position that has the least depth at the upper levels of the organization. The varsity team has no starting shortstop and the closest true heir to the position has fewer than 100 PAs playing high-A ball. Today I want to look at the position in the organization with the most depth at the upper reaches of the organization – third base.

A couple of years ago, many of us thought that Scott Rolen might retire and enter the Hall of Fame as a Card. Unfortunately, two major collisions, about 17 shoulder surgeries, and 1049 arguments w/ Tony later and Scotty is languishing up in Toronto while former postseason stud Troy Glaus mans the hot corner for the Cards. In one of Mo’s shrewdest moves to date, the Cards’ GM sent Rolen, along with the 3 years and $37M owed to him, north in exchange for the bad-kneed Glaus and his 2 year, $23M contract. Glaus outplayed Rolen last year by anywhere from half a win to 3 wins but, even if their performances were equal, the fact that Mo saved the organization a year and $14M by exchanging the contracts was a big victory for the Cards.

This year we enter into the final year of Glaus’s contract. He’ll make $12.5M in ’09 and turns 33 in August. He’s no spring chicken and, you’d have to think that given the state of his knees, probably won’t age well into his mid-30s. The Cards can probably count on a pretty good season from him in ’09 but he’s probably not going to be in the Cards’ plans after the season.

Last year, Glaus was outstanding for the Cards – better than I expected him to be, frankly. Glaus ended the season w/ batting splits of .270/.373/.474 for an OPS of .847. His EqA was .296 and his wOBA was .371. Only Chipper, ARod, David Wright, Aramis Ramirez and Evan Longoria were better, offensively, than Glaus was last season (among all third basemen). Justin Inaz has Glaus as nearly a 4 win offensive player last season.

Defensively, there’s some disagreement as to how good Glaus was. First of all, it’s pretty clear that he was not as good as Rolen but, considering how good he was offensively, it didn’t matter much. The fielding bible has Glaus as a +6 defensive player last season but most of the other metrics has Glaus at about average to slightly below average. PMR has Glaus at about 5 plays per 100 below average last season. According to RZR, Glaus was middle of the pack among NL third basemen. These are the numbers that led Justin to conclude that Glaus was good for -3 runs defensively in ’08. Over at BtB, they used the PMR numbers to determine that Glaus’s defense was worth approximately -14 runs defensively in ’08. BP, the defensive measure I have the least confidence in, had Glaus at 3 runs above average last season.

The only real concern about Glaus this season is his health. He played 151 games and had 637 PAs last season but there is reason to question his ability to do it again. Fortunately, with the depth the team has at the hot corner, his is probably the injury (among the team’s most important players) the team could withstand the most.

The organization’s next three third-sackers – David Freese, Allen Craig, and Brett Wallace – all spent a fair amount of time at AA or higher last season. Freese, who turns 26 in April, had 510 PAs at Memphis last season. Craig, who turns 25 in July, had 568 PAs at Springfield last season. Wallace, the team’s first round pick last June, had his final 57 PAs in AA last August. Their combined numbers last season:

OBP SLG HR BB K ISO RC/27 wOBA
Freese .360 .550 26 39 111 .244 7.64 .386
Craig .373 .494 22 48 87 .190 6.97 .368
Wallace* .427 .530 8 19 39 .193 8.96 .395

* -- Wallace’s numbers came in 234 combined PAs w/ low-A Quad Cities and AA Springfield.

There’s, obviously, lots to like in all these players. Freese is the closest to the majors, as he should be considering the fact that he’s about 15 months older than Craig and nearly 3 ½ years older than Wallace. Wallace is one of the team’s top prospects but there is some concern about his ability to stay at third (as there is w/ Craig as well).

Let’s look at Dan Szymborski’s ZIPS projections for this season:

AVG OBP SLG HR BB K
Glaus .258 .360 .451 21 72 98
Freese .265 .321 .428 18 39 99
Craig .267 .315 .443 22 33 80
Wallace .275 .333 .424 16 29 84

According to the ZIPS projections, there’s reason to think that any of the other 3 could be competent at the hot corner this year. None would likely be as good as Glaus, but, if Glaus could be moved for something of value, any could probably be adequate in ’09. I’m not suggesting that Glaus should be moved necessarily, b/c I doubt that his trade value is that high. He likely provides more to the team this season than the combination of his replacement at third and the person(s) he’s traded for would provide. Still, it’s good to know that, if he went down for an extended period of time, third base would probably be in capable hands.

Finally, let’s look at the 3 prospects’ minor league translations. The first set of numbers is the players’ regular translation – what we might expect from these players if they were called up to the big leagues this season. The second set of numbers is the players’ peak translation – a translation to determine how good the players might be at their respective peaks.

AVG OBP SLG HR BB K EqA
Freese .271 .322 .484 23 35 112 .271
Craig .255 .316 .427 22 42 94 .255
Wallace* .262 .333 .419 .259

* -- Wallace’s counting stats not included based on limited PAs last season. The MLEs use the same number of PAs for their calculations.

AVG OBP SLG HR BB K EqA
Freese .273 .324 .484 23 35 110 .273
Craig .284 .348 .472 24 47 87 .280
Wallace* .281 .365 .438 .279

Considering Wallace’s distance from low-A ball to the majors, his translations are least likely to be accurate. Freese is certainly the closest to the majors and probably the best defender of the 3 but he also, in all likelihood, has the lowest ceiling. If it turns out that Craig and Wallace can handle the position, they’re probably the Cards’ best options for the future, though it’s unclear whether they’ll be ready in 2010 when Glaus leaves. Still, there’s reason to think that the position will be in good hands, regardless of whose hands they are, following the 2009 season – thus leaving Mo the ability to reallocate Glaus’s $12.5M toward solving one of the Cards’ other needs.

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Freese had to have been excited to be traded

last year, but now he’s gotta feel like it’s deja vu all over again.

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Nov 30, 2008 8:53 AM EST reply actions  

The name escapes me

 at the moment as I’m heading to work but in the international draft we also picked up another 3b with a solid, solid bat.

So we have 4 in the pipeline.

I really, really like Freese, but it’s hard to battle for him considering the talent behind him. Gonna be a fun year to watch

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 30, 2008 10:23 AM EST reply actions  

Roberto De La Cruz

Also Jermaine Curtis had a strong showing in his debut at Batavia, although some believe he’ll play better at second.

I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Nov 30, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

It will be interesting to see

where each of our three minor league 3B start out in 2009. Freese at AAA 3B, Wallace at AA 3B, and A. Craig to the OF? Perhaps Freese makes the big club as a spare corner infielder and Wallace starts at Memphis?

by jjray on Nov 30, 2008 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

and none of these guys can be converted to a MIF?

if that’s true, someone needs to be packaged for a MIF or pitching prospect.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Nov 30, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm misdirecting this

But are you really surprised a 3B can’t be converted to a MIF? Anyone think Troy Glaus ever could’ve been a SS/2B?

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 30, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Glaus has played...

in 18 games as a shortstop in his career. And lets not forget about Cal Ripkin (originally a 3B converted to gold glove SS then back to 3B) or Alex Rodriguez (who was converted from shortstop to 3B, despite being a better defensive SS than Jeter). ARod could probably switch back to short and not be the worst defensive option in the league (see Hanley Ramirez).

I’m not saying any of these guys would be appropriate (clearly Wallace and Craig have no chance at ever being even remotely adequate at shortstop), but I don’t think its that big of a stretch to consider Freese at that position. He’s reportedly very slick with the glove and he’s not “overly big” like Glaus. He’d be bigger for a shortstop, but in this era, its really not that uncommon to have a 6’3" SS. If we end up with a low ceiling defensive SS this season, the Cards would be doing a disservice by not considering him as an option at the position. His offensive upside compared to a player like Izturis may be worth the difference defensively.

by CrimsonBirdFan on Nov 30, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Why are we comparing Freese

to Ripken and A-Rod? First of all, these guys were/are freaks — surefire Gold Glovers, MVPs and Hall of Famers. How does Freese merit inclusion into any discussion of them? Second, they came up playing SS and were moved to 3B as Ripken got older and to avoid alienating Jeter. They are not, nor were they ever third basemen converted to SS. David Freese has played exactly 0 professional games at SS. Why would we even consider moving him to a more difficult defensive position?

If anyone ever thought he could play SS before, he would have been converted and, in fact, would have never been traded in the first place. Additionally, the major leagues is not where you experiment by seeing who is capable of playing SS. If any of our coaches or the Padres’ coaches had thought, even for a second, that Freese could play SS, he’d have been moved there and they would have used the minors to see if he could handle it. That’s what the minor leagues are for.

by chuckb on Nov 30, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Minor correction on Ripken

In his first full MLB season (1982), Cal Ripken started the first 71 games at 3B. On July 1, Earl Weaver installed him as the shortstop to stay. The move was somewhat controverial at the time. He was drafted out of high school as a 3rd baseman. I can’t locate his minor league stats to find out how much time he spent as a SS in the minors. Fully agree that Freese shouldn’t be compared to either of these HOFers.

by ubeddie on Nov 30, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 1, 2008 3:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Uggh

Glaus has played there out of necessity, at no point in his career would he have been acceptable to have at SS for a full season. A-Rod was converted to 3B because of Captainitude I don’t see why that’s referenced. Neither of them have the slightest bearing on whether a career 3B can convert to SS. PS Hanley Ramirez was above average last year.

Do you think that if Freese could play even a -10 run SS (which would be in the bottom 3 in the majors according to Inaz’s numbers) they wouldn’t give him a look there?

Btw he’d have to be a 30 run hitter to be Izturis’ equivalent last year which his ZiPS does not have him being

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 30, 2008 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

i’m starting from the same assumption as most others, that if freese showed the slightest ability to play a 2b or ss they would’ve tried him there. but there are stories of guys falling through the cracks. somebody posted a link the other day about barden, suggesting he might one such guy who was pigeonholed as a 3b. for a better-documented example…

it’s a bit different, but david eckstein had only 17 games at short in the minors, all but one of them at a-ball, before the angels made him their starting shortstop at the majors in 2001. we’ve enough of the subsequent uzr’s to suggest it was good move. i’d guess there was some fall league or winter ball work that went into the decision to move eckstein, but we’re still talking about minimal evaluation as a ss before he became the ss (and for that matter, minimal evaluation of eckstein in-house, since the angels only picked him up in mid-august of 2000), and eckstein had some pretty obvious deficiencies that somebody had to be both pretty sharp and pretty gutsy to look past.

by greenback06 on Nov 30, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That was also pre-"enlightenment"

Where positional scarcity was still 3 steps beyond first figuring out “not making outs” is more important than RBIs.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 1, 2008 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

"not making outs" at SS

is exactly why we let eckstein go, IIRC.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 1, 2008 2:00 AM EST up reply actions  

in turn, depends

on how the MI situation settles out, doesn’t it? Either by overt bent of his strategy, or the result of insisting on an over-stock of LOOGYs, Tony doesn’t seem to place value in having a “back-up corner infielder.” Unless I am over-looking someone, this role has largely been absent on recent Cardinal rosters.
Albert being such an ‘iron man’ dictates this, in part; and, as was pointed out above, Glaus stayed remarkably healthy and available last year as well.
My point is, LaRussa seems to be content to throw an MI at one of the corner spots, if emergency dictates. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ‘09 squad of 25 again has four MI’s and no true corner man besides Pu and Troy. We may not see any of the discussed 3b trio until September, if then.

by the Tewk on Nov 30, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s unfair to say larussa doesn’t value his corner infielders. in 06 and 07 Speizio occupied a roster spot, Mabry in 04 and 05, and Eduardo Perez 2000-03. Last year seems to be the exception and it can be attributed to the need to subsidize both of our middle infielders.

I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Nov 30, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

And if Freese doesn't start in the majors

it doesn’t indicate that La Russa favors middle infielders to corner infielders. It may just be a desire to have Freese get as many PAs as possible and, w/ Glaus healthy, that just wouldn’t happen at the major league level. What might limit Freese is his ability to play more than 1 position but if Tony felt he could stick him at 1B, LF, and RF, he might stick short-term.

by chuckb on Nov 30, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

now

can you find a precedent for larussa using a young guy off the bench in a situation over a veteran?

Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Nov 30, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Placido Polanco and John Mabry

I’m sure there are plenty of other examples if you’re willing to actually look for them.

I don’t believe in this stuff about ‘Tony hates the rooks’

He has players he loves and players he hates, sure, but he doesn’t globally hate all young players. He has given chances to plenty of them.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 30, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

disagree.

Boog was given very little chance to prove himself; he was almost certainly the better player than izturis, leaving spring training, and wasn’t given the shot. After fighing his way back fron “injury”, he was still almost as good while given sporadic playing time under non-optimal conditions. iE, pinch hit every 5th day if the moon is in the 7th quadrant.

I seriously cannot believe any cardinal fan who watched any number of games in ‘07 or ’08 considers Ryan to be less of an option going forward than izturis… I know that ryan probably isn’t The Answer, but if we had started Ryan instead of Izturis in 2008, I still think we would have won 86 or 87 instead of 86, and we very well might have a trade chip + $3.5M on our hands. i still don’t see any justification for the izturis signing in ’08.

At best, ryan turns into a competent defender + competent bat, a .750 OPS + plus 10 on the dewan defense scale; at the worst, the diff between izturis and Ryan in ‘08 was 1 win, in the past, for an FA who sn’t even worth a draft pick.

Bad decision, Mo, and it’ll take a lot of work to change my mind on this.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 1, 2008 3:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Freese is interesting

in that, the more I look at his minor league stats, the more I think he is indeed a very good prospect. Of the three he reportedly is the best defensively by a wide margin. If he was two years younger he’d be considered a great prospect and would fetch us some good return in a trade. As it is though, I think everybody looks at his age and thinks AAAA player. I’m not sure this is fair as he achieved these AAA stats in only his third professional year and his first at that level. Is age really that big a factor in evaluating a player in these circumstances? Considering how old he was when he entered pro ball could he have gotten here any faster? We could be passing up a pretty good regular player if we, or circumstances, don’t find a way to give him a real shot.

by easy on Nov 30, 2008 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

+1

also, players seem capable of sustaining performance longer these days, especially those not requiring great speed, as in corner IF and OF. in short, i think under some circumstances, you need to give these “older” guys a hard look, e.g., ludwick, and not have too hard a rule re calendar age.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Nov 30, 2008 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

He definitely needs to get a shot this year...

Considering how much of a shot Skip got, Freese should get at least as much. He’s got more upside, too.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro

by DiscoJer on Nov 30, 2008 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

rather than try to move a player to a different position, i would trade one or two of our third basemen for middle infield prospects or pitching. does anyone know if we have a good young promising catcher in the system, other than anderson who needs to go. maybe someone at a or high a? i think our minor league system needs to be better balanced. if we should be top heavy in anything it should be pitching.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Nov 30, 2008 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

Sounds like an Abbott & Costello routine...

The Cards are counting on “I Don’t Know” at third base.

Lou Brock loves Lamp.

by birdjam on Nov 30, 2008 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

Who's in the infield, except 1b?

While your post is about 3B, can some of the more knowledgeable commentators please enlighten me as to why Brendan Ryan is not being considered as the SS, as opposed to trades or free agents? Not good enough bat, or makeup, or what?

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Nov 30, 2008 5:19 PM EST reply actions  

he was kind of horrible last year

I’d rather re-sign Izturis than start Ryan next year.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 30, 2008 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

In fact, after looking up his season statistics, I will quote only one thing:

He slugged .289!

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 30, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

For shortstop

sadly, he was around replacement level.

by azruavatar on Nov 30, 2008 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

do stl/oak match up in a trade?

stl has 3b depth, needs middle infielders, bp help

A’s need 3b, have middle infield depth and relievers

freese or craig

for

crosby or pennington
patterson
cassilla, blevins, devine, ziegler etc

by Asfan4ever723 on Dec 1, 2008 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

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