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Is Ted Simmons a Hall of Famer?

I stumbled across this topic the other day over at The Hardball Times and thought it would make for some pretty good discussion around here. My understanding has always been that, despite Simmons’ excellent offensive exploits, his defensive shortcomings prevented him from being strongly considered for the HOF. Indeed, most HOF voters seemed to agree as he received votes from just 3.7% of the voters the only year he was on the ballot. Rusty Staub, Vada Pinson, Thurman Munson, and Mickey Lolich all received more HOF votes than Simmons did. Dave Concepcion, a nice player to be sure, but hardly a Hall of Famer, was on the ballot for 15 years to Simmons’ 1. Did Simmons really deserve the cold shoulder he received from the voters?

Let’s acknowledge first off that we’re all Cards’ fans here and predisposed to believing that Simmons probably does belong – at least more so than fans of the Cubs or Mariners might be. I want to try and look at this objectively and to assess his candidacy from a non-Cards’ fan standpoint.

We have to begin by understanding what a truly great catcher Simmons was. His career OPS+ is 117 – better than Gary Carter and tied w/ Carlton Fisk for 9th among Hall of Fame catchers. For those who argue he spent too much of his time at DH, Simmons caught 1771 career games – more than Berra, Bill Dickey, Piazza, and Bench. His career wOBA is .346 and he had seasons of .393, .339, .386, .387, .370, and .384. Just for comparison, Brian McCann had the highest wOBA of any catcher in baseball this year at .387. So imagine putting up 6 straight seasons of the highest wOBA in baseball from behind the dish. Chase Utley’s wOBA this year -- .391. Simmons was better than that in 1975. He was an outstanding offensive player. Compare him to other catchers who’ve entered the Hall in the last 15 or so years.

wOBA
Simmons .346
Bench .361
Fisk .354
Carter .341

Geoff Young, in the THT article linked above, goes to great lengths to compare Simmons to Hall of Famer Gary Carter. For most of their careers, Simmons OPS+ is better than Carter’s. Simmons had more great seasons at the plate than Carter did. Now, FWIW, Carter is in the Hall as much b/c of his defensive accomplishments as his offensive ones but it’s fair to say that Simmons compares favorably to another Hall of Famer and, in fact, was likely a better offensive player than Carter. Young isn’t convinced that Carter’s even deserving of entrance to the Hall but Jay Jaffe at BP calls Gary Carter "#2 among all Hall catchers, behind only Johnny Bench." According to Bill James’ ranking – referenced in Young’s article – Simmons is the #10 catcher of all time. His is the highest ranking for any catcher eligible but not yet in the HOF. He has more career win shares than Hall of Famer Bill Dickey.

One knock against Simmons’ candidacy is the aforementioned time he spent at DH. To me, that doesn’t hold a lot of water considering the number of games he spent behind the dish. And Paul Molitor – who is deserving, by the way – is in the Hall of Fame and he spent 44% of his career resting every half inning. Simmons spent 76.5% of his career games behind the dish.

A second knock against Simmons is that the last several years of his career were spent playing positions other than catcher. He wasn’t really a full-time catcher, so goes the argument, those last few years so any numbers he put up during those years don’t really count. Young squashes this argument by comparing him, once again, to Carter. Carter gets credit for staying behind the dish toward the end of his career but he was so awful during his last few seasons that it shouldn’t get any more credit than Simmons playing 1B, 3B, and DH. Remember, Bench played a grand total of 13 games behind the plate after he turned 33, instead playing 76 games at 1B and 149 games at 3B.

Over at BP, Jaffe has created his JAWS system (defined in the BP article linked above) to evaluate the candidacies of prospective Hall of Famers. It involves taking the average of a player’s WARP3 and their PEAK, which is sum of their WARP3s in their 5 best consecutive seasons. Then he compares them to the average Hall of Famer at the player’s position.

BRAR BRAA FRAA WARP3 PEAK JAWS
Avg HOF C 406 197 61 94.8 41.3 68.1
Simmons 560 271 -16 94.9 38.1 66.5

Going by the JAWS scores, Simmons may fall just a tiny bit short but his all-time WARP3 can keep up w/ anyone. It seems that, if anything, Simmons loses a little b/c his peaks weren’t as high as his competitors and he gains points for longevity. Jaffe seems to agree w/ that assessment saying that Simmons, along w/ a few others "had longer careers with lower peaks than the average enshrinee." Still, if you add BRAA to FRAA for total runs above average – the average HOF catcher had 258 (197+61) and Simmons had 255 (271-16). Pretty close.

It’s tough to argue that Simmons clearly belongs in the Hall but it seems to me, as it does Young and Jaffe, that the voters in 1994 gave him short shrift. He was clearly a notch below Fisk and Bench but seems to be pretty comparable to Carter. If you look again at the wOBA table at the top, you see Simmons finished 3rd among the 4 catchers. I mentioned earlier that one of the primary critiques of Simmons’ candidacy was that maybe he stuck around too long – becoming less of a catcher and more of a DH. However, his last 5 wOBAs were .260, .327, .298, .319, and .272 – all 5 well below his career average. But what if he had hung it up after 1983 – his age 33 season?

If he didn’t have those 5 down (for him) years on his record, his career wOBA would be around .356. Now he’s ahead of Fisk and just a few points behind Bench. I’m not so stupid as to believe that most Hall voters consider (or even know what the hell wOBA is) but voters might have better memories of him as a great catcher rather than as a player who hung around playing every position except catcher. He still wouldn’t have the MVPs or Gold Gloves on his record, but I think it’s a lot more likely he’d have stayed on the ballot for a while and then, who knows…

Jaffe said, of Simmons and some others (Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Dwight Evans – just to name a few), that "they may not all belong in the Hall of Fame, but their cases deserved better airings than they got." I think that’s where I stand, too. I’m not at all convinced he belongs. In fact, I might lean to the he-falls-just-short side. But 3.7%? Are you f-ing kidding me? If he doesn’t belong, he’s pretty damned close. He certainly deserved a better fate than he got, Cards’ fan or not.

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10th best

It seems to me that the argument is flawed at its basis. Measuring him against other HOF catchers is a good start, but shouldn’t the 10th best catcher of all time be in the HOF simply on that statistic alone?

If only the 9 best at any position were allowed in, we’d only have 81 players in the Hall of Fame. In a brief glance at the list, it does appear that catchers are the most under-represented in what is arguably the hardest position.

I would vote him in with no hesitation, I don’t think there is really a strong arguement to keep him out.

by The Duke on Nov 29, 2008 7:35 AM EST reply actions  

+1

I absolutey agree. This is the problem with the “let’s comare X player to the players in the Hall at his position” method for evaluating HOF candidates. If the voters have been too lax in their standards prior to then, then it becomes a license to continue admitting unworthy players. And, as in the case with catchers (and third baseman), they’ve been unreasonably stingy, it provides a basis for perpetually denying worthy candidates. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Nov 29, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

                                  Ab R H 2b 3b hr rbi ave obp slg

Johnny Bench: 7658 1091 2048 381 24 381 1376 .267 .342 .476

Carlton Fisk: 8756 1276 2356 421 47 376 1330 .269 .341 .457

Gary Cater: 7971 1025 2092 371 31 324 1225 .262 .336 .439

TED SIMMONS: 8680 1074 2472 483 47 248 1389 .285 .348 .437

The only thing that looks to keep Simmons out is his HR totals. 52 more and he’d be in already.

by nybirdfan on Nov 29, 2008 8:11 AM EST reply actions  

Sorry,

that the rows don’t line up, but if you look Simmons leads in 5 of 10 categories and ties with Fisk with triples. The glaring thing to me is that Cater leads in none of the counting stats. Like I said homers get you in the Hall and Ted simply didn’t make it to the magic 300 number. He is in the ‘Hall of should be Fame’ along with Rice, Mattingly, and Jim Kaat.

I just looked at Kaat’s stats again and it is a crime that he is not in. Check them out. 16 gold gloves to boot!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kaatji01.shtml

by nybirdfan on Nov 29, 2008 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

None of Rice, Mattingly, or Kaat

belong in the Hall. They’re not even really that close. They were very good players but they are not Hall of Famers. If Simmons is, indeed, in the same category, then he doesn’t belong either.

Blyleven belongs w/o a doubt. There’s a good argument for Bobby Grich and Ron Santo. After this year, when Tim Raines is denied, he’ll belong. But Rice, Kaat, and Mattingly are not worthy.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

+1 on Blyleven

If I want to get really annoyed at the voters, I go look at Burt’s career numbers and shake my head. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Nov 29, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

There are certainly worse pitchers than Kaat in the HoF.

See Hunter, Catfish, and Sutton, Don. (Yes, Sutton was clearly not as good as Kitty; the higher wins total reflected the fact that he usually was on much better teams.) I’d consider him marginal, Blyleven and Raines clearly in, Mattingly clearly out, the others (including Simba) marginal.

It’s interesting that BR calls Simba one of Fisk’s top 10 comparables. One would think that if there’s room for one, there’s room for the other.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 29, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but

saying “there are worse pitchers than __________” is hardly a feather in his cap. I won’t argue for Hunter or Sutton either but Kaat is not up to the standards of the average HOF starting pitcher. There are always examples of people in the Hall who don’t belong, but comparing prospective candidates to those guys only serves to devalue the Hall by lowering the standards for entrance.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess

I should have said “hall of almost fame” instead of “should be fame.” In reviewing some stats I agree Rice and Mattingly are not quite worthy. Here is another name that deserves consideration. Fred McGriff. I think it is true that no one with 500+ HR’s failed to make the hall. Fred has 493 and 2490 hits. I saw him play here in Syracuse and always respected his game.

I do think Kaat belongs. It could be said that the number of years he played hurt him. As he aged and dropped off in skills his individual years are less and less impressive. Still his career totals are worthy of consideration. As far as Simmons goes I think if Carter is in then Ted should be as well. Carter has 300+ HR’s and a ring, but still Simmons was a better player. When 2011 rolls around I hope the Veterens Committee votes him in.

by nybirdfan on Nov 29, 2008 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

disagree

and don’t have time to explain why he isn’t… but imho, off the top of my head, he isn’t a no-brainer; at best, he’s a “those other guys were worse and they got in’ – ’er” type.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 1, 2008 4:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, take some time...

…because Blythleven, if admitted, wouldn’t fit in at the bottom of the HOF pitching ranks. He’d rank smack dab in the middle. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Dec 2, 2008 8:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Simba's one of my first Cardinal heroes

and the fact he’s NOT in the HOF (and Gary Carter is) is a joke. Time to revive the East Coast media bias conspiracy? But BBWAA are always right, aren’t they?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Nov 29, 2008 8:17 AM EST reply actions  

The fact

that Carter played a number of years in NY does make a difference.

by ridgesee on Nov 29, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree

If Simmons were a Yankee he would be in the HOF no doubt.

I also think if Willie McGee were to have played with the Yankees in the 80’s he would have been given A LOT more consideration for the Hall too.

As for Carter, if he would have played with say the Tigers or the Royals in the mis-80’s instead of the Mets I really doubt he would be in the Hall right now. Him being on that 86 Mets team got him in in my opinion.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 29, 2008 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Willie...

You might be right on the Yankee effect, but there is no case for Willie to the Hall. Love Willie…but he’s not a HOF’r. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Nov 29, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Carter definitely deserves entrance

Remember, Jaffe has him as the #2 catcher of all time. While that’s probably a little high, the notion that Carter’s only in the Hall b/c he played for the Mets is pretty absurd really. Carter’s offensive accomplishments are about equal to Simmons’ — maybe slightly less — but he has 3 Gold Gloves to Simmons’ 0. He has a 35% career CS%. BP has Simmons at 16 FRAA and Carter at 152 – that’s a 168 run difference just on defense. Simmons’ WP+PB/G % is .390 for his career. Carter’s was .267. For their careers, Carter caught 285 more games than Simmons did.

Remember, the THT article only really compared Carter and Simmons offensively. There’s no comparison defensively. By every measure, Carter was a superior defensive player and Simmons was, at best, mediocre. Can we then dispense with the notion that Carter is no more deserving than Simmons and that he’s only in the Hall b/c he played in New York. That’s just patently ridiculous. Simmons may belong, but he is not as deserving as Gary Carter.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Defense Trips Up Simmons

I remember him better with the Brewers than the Cardinals. I always thought of Simmons as a mediocre defensive catcher. He wasn’t the defensive equal of Bench, Carter, or Fisk. I think he should have gotten more HOF votes, but I don’t think Simmons is a Hall of Famer.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Dec 1, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

a favorite with me, too

as was Hal Smith, McCarver, Pagnozzi and Matheny. But Simba exceeded them all. One of the few players ever to hit over .300 from both sides of the plate in the same year. And with any wheels at all would easily have hit above .300 for a career. {as a Cardinal only, he hit .298}
A pure line drive hitter, which I personally always prefer over a higher HR but much higher K player. Consider the career K rates… Simmons .080 {wow}; Bench .167; Carter .125

All that aside, I was emotionally attached to him as a player in any case. He made it much easier for me to be a proud Cardinal fan for over a decade. &%#@ on the HOF, I don’t care.

  • what other player had Ernie Hays play a symphony trill when he came to the plate?

by the Tewk on Nov 29, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Simba

A hero of youth…..the guy consistently smoked line drives all over the park………and cigarettes in the tunnel……..kinda of a sports John Wayne to me………very tough competitor too

Perception wise he suffered the ill fate of having a career parallel to Bench who was the darling of everyone and perhaps rightfully so. Simmons was always all-star back-up at best and was never featured in post-season play. That pretty much did his HOF chances in.

Statistically speaking, I’d vote him in. If the “high standard” guys want to cut him out, fine, I can live with that but he certainly deserved more votes and the Gary Carter thing (relative to Simmons) is just silly

by Hinkster on Nov 29, 2008 8:36 AM EST reply actions  

low vote totals don't necessarily lead me to the conclusion

that simmons didn’t get a fair shake. maybe the vast majority of voters poured over the numbers just like chuckb did and decided he fell just short. that would be a rational explanation for the low vote. no way the wise old sages at the BBWAA just looked at his home runs and decided on that alone … right?

in all seriousness though i’m guessing his defense worked against him a little bit, which i’m assuming voters put a premium on for catchers in particular.

by rannpb on Nov 29, 2008 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

According to Rick Hummel

he has been asked about this in his commish column at stl today. He said that as a member of the veterans committee, he will not rest until Simmons is in. That’s a pretty strong advocate for Teddy. I must have watched him play at least a hundred games back in the seventies. What I can say is that in his prime he would be an all star every year today and would be very highly paid. Anyone who watched the team back then would surely agree that they were watching a future hall of famer!

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Nov 29, 2008 1:28 PM EST reply actions  

catchers in the hall

HOF number of inductees by positition
First Base 19
Second Base 16
Shortstop 22
Third Base 11
Left Field 19
Center Field 20
Right Field 22
Catcher 14
Designated Hitter 1
Pitcher 66

Do we all agree that catcher is THE most difficult and demanding position? Why the low total? I don’t want to induct every Gary Bennett that comes along but would not Simmons stats, even with mediocre defense, WHILE CATCHING, not be enough for HOF? Carter, yes. Simmons, yes. btw, Santo and Blyleven too.

HOF Catchers
Bench
Berra
Bresnahan
Campanella
Carter
Cochrane
Dickey
Ewing
Farrell
Fisk
Gibson
Hartnett
Lombardi
Mackey
Schalk
Santop

 

by Hinkster on Nov 29, 2008 3:51 PM EST reply actions  

Using BR's OPS+ scores

Simba would be at about the 30th percentile among the HOF catchers, in a dead heat with Fisk, if offensive performance is the main criterion. That puts him in “marginal” territory, but not clearly out of the discussion. (There are a couple of real clinkers in that list — Schalk and Rick Ferrell are really reaches for the Hall.) In his favor is the fact that his career was a lot longer than most of the incumbents’, and at least somewhat longer than any’s except Fisk’s; against him is the fact that most were considered excellent defenders — which Simba was not. Of course, he may have been a victim of Nichols’ Law of Catcher Defense.

I’d vote for him, but it’s not a no-brainer. BTW, what are Mackey and “Santop” doing on this list? I assume that by the latter you mean Louis Santop, not Ron Santo, but he and Biz Mackey are both in for Negro League accomplishments — which are difficult to compare usefully to the others.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 29, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

117+

Playing in a low offensive era (remember as offense mean rises, so does the standard deviation) in a pitcher’s park, a 117+ career ops is nothing to sneeze at.

His defense wasn’t great, but he is probably under-rated while carter IMHO is over-rated. I am think Simmons is again damaged by the era. If he’d played in a high offensive era when base-stealing wasn’t so prominent, his arm might not be such a liability. I’d still give some points to Carter for the ~500 more games he played behind the plate.

On the balance its close, but I think he should be in. Then again I don’t see it as a travesty— yet—- that he isn’t in.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 30, 2008 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

June 24th 1979

The day Simba lost the HOF. Broken hand while catching. This is the peak season that would have put him over the top.

.321 18hr 52rbi in less then half the season. ended with .283 26 87

It was made worse by his inability to adjust to a new league. .221 and .263 in the first two years in Milwaukee

FYI His throwing was not the issue with Simba it was his inability to stop the ball. PBs were his weakness. He had double the PBs the other HOFers had

Andy S

by apaul1029 on Nov 30, 2008 3:02 AM EST reply actions  

Unfortunately

Simmons played for some dreadful Cards teams while Carter was a part of a fantastic NLCS and a universally remembered WS in 86. If Carter finishes his days in an Expos uni, I’m not sure he’s in the Hall of Fame…

I bought the t-shirt.

by thejackclarkfive on Nov 30, 2008 4:58 AM EST reply actions  

+1

I agree with that wholeheartedly. Carter languishes in obscurity if he’s not dealt to the Mets, which was the media darling in the mid-80s (until almost everyone on their team was arrested for drugs/drunk driving/domestic violence/insert criminal activity here).
If Simmons had played for the Phillies during their run in the East, or the Dogers, this wouldn’t be a discussion. He was fortunate to play in the best baseball town in the world, just the misfortune of playing at the wrong time…

"Wherever you go, there you are"

by brik on Dec 2, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

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