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LOOGYs, Defensive Stats

So it looks like the Cardinals will be addressing the LOOGY problem in a familiar way: bulk. To Charlie Manning Mozeliak added, yesterday, Ian Ostlund and maybe-Trever-Miller.

Miller first, since as of this moment he is "... still working on the language of the contract." Provided the Cardinals actually get him he seems to echo the last lefty reliever the Cardinals handed a two-year contract—Ricardo "Gulp" Rincon.

Which is not to say that he's going to pitch eight games or lose his job to Bill Pulsipher or anything. It's just that, like Rincon, he's an aging LOOGY whose appearances have, of late, gotten shorter and shorter—whose platoon split has widened to where it would be better for him to throw underhand against righties, or just do the hidden ball trick every time, than to actually challenge them with his fastball.

The year before the Cardinals got Rincon, who had a one or two year run as one of the better LOOGYs in the league, he threw just 37 innings in 67 appearances, and faced 30 more lefties than righties. He still seemed outwardly effective, but he was far gone from his peak, when he got righties out better than the average relief pitcher.

Miller never had Rincon's peak, but like him he's become even more one-dimensional in his dotage. From averaging three quarters of an inning an appearance in his three year "peak" he's down to just barely half in 2007 and 2008, during which time he's become more lefty focused and less effective.

Basically, Miller is an upgrade to the Cardinals bullpen like a cold is an upgrade to the flu. You feel better, because you used to feel like crap, but you'd still rather not feel that way all summer. I hope this isn't the zenith of the bullpen construction.

As for Ostlund, he looks like he might be a keeper. A reliever for most of his career, he's made his way slowly up the Tigers' system by spending what amount to whole seasons at each stop. Now 30, he was extremely effective in the AAA International League, where he struck out 77 batters to just 17 walks in 69 innings. That sort of control is par for the course for Ostlund, who's walked two batters per nine innings in his Minor League career, and not at all par for the course for LOOGYs, who typically walk the hitters they can't get out.

As per Minor League Splits Ian Ostlund doesn't have the prototypical LOOGY split we discussed re: Charlie Manning at all. In fact, in 2008 he walked one more lefty than righty. His career splits only show one significant difference between the way he attacks lefties and righties: he's allowed one home run to a left-handed batter in 97 innings, but 23 to right-handers in 157 innings.

As a lefty on the Cardinals he almost certainly wouldn't be called upon to get many right-handers out, but that he can do it—at least at the AAA level—makes him a more palatable option, for me, than any of the other LOOGYs the Cardinals have presently thrown against the wall.

But you know who I'd love to see? R.J. Swindle. Anybody whose #2 pitch is the eephus curve is alright by me. 

Anyway, I've been working on it all week and the formatting is still godawful, but it's time to present version 0.5 of the Defensive Stat Aggregating Chart. Down the chart are the positions; heading right you reach the backups. Fielding Bible +/-, available at Bill James Online (which is definitely worth the $3 a month) is measured in outs; DRS, computed by Chris Dial, is Zone Rating converted into runs. PMR—David Pinto's stat—has been converted into runs at Chronicles of the Lads and now Beyond the Box Score.

I'll work PMR into the rest of the starters' tables today, but I wanted to have some semblance of this nasty-looking table up before, uh, Saturday. (I've only checked this in Safari—if it looks even worse in IE or Firefox, let me know in the comments and I will probably... well, I'll probably throw my hands up. But let me know.) 

POS

1

2

3

C

Yadier Molina

Jason LaRue

1B

Albert Pujols

08: FB +20 DRS: 14.5 PMR: 28.5

07: FB +37 DRS: 12.1 PMR:  ---

06: FB +25           PMR: 30.7

Chris Duncan

08: FB -1 DRS:  ---

07: FB  0 DRS:  0.7

06: FB +1

 

2B

Adam Kennedy

08: FB +19 DRS:  9.1

07: FB  -1 DRS:  3.4

06: FB  +1

Aaron Miles

08: FB  0 DRS:  -.8*

07: FB -1 DRS:  1.5

06: FB  0

Brendan Ryan

08: FB -1 DRS:  ---

07: FB +2 DRS:  ---

 

3B

Troy Glaus

08: FB  +6 DRS:  4.5

07: FB  +9 DRS: -5.2

06: FB  +8

Aaron Miles

08: FB  0 DRS:  ---

07: FB +1 DRS:  1.1

06: n/a

Brendan Ryan

08: FB -1 DRS:  ---

07: FB +1 DRS:  ---

 

SS

 

Aaron Miles

08: FB +5 DRS:  ---

07: FB -9 DRS: -6.3

06: FB -2

Brendan Ryan

08: FB +3 DRS: -1.9*

07: FB +3

 

OF

Ryan Ludwick

08: FB  -7 DRS:  0.4

07: FB +10 DRS:  4.4^

 

Chris Duncan

08: FB +4 DRS:  5.3

07: FB -4 DRS: -4.6

06: FB -6  

Brian Barton

08: FB +4 DRS:  0.5

 

 

CF

Rick Ankiel

08: FB -15 DRS: -1.3

07: FB  -1 DRS:  ---

Skip Schumaker

08: FB -2 DRS: ----

07: FB -1 DRS:  1.0

Joe Mather

08: FB 0

 

OF

Skip Schumaker

08: FB  +5 DRS: -5.0*

07: FB  +5 DRS: -0.6

Rick Ankiel

08: FB +1 DRS:  ---

07: FB +4 DRS: -2.1

Joe Mather

08: FB +7

 

* - The stats are only available in this year for total defensive value, and are not broken down by position. This is the Aaron Miles asterisk.

^ - This year Ludwick derived most of his value from playing center field.

I think the fundamental thing to remember here is that at many of these positions the starter sees fewer fielding chances per game than he gets at-bats, and that for many of the utility players or part-timers they're playing the equivalent of 30 or 40 at-bat seasons at each position. The Fielding Bible stats put it best in their tables--another reason to pick up a Bill James Online subscription--which list "expected" plays, given their playing time and the balls hit to their area, and the actual plays that were made.

It's one thing to say that Aaron Miles was +1 play as an outfielder--it sounds permanent, like a rate stat. But it's another to realize that that was one more play out of three he was expected to make. I wanted to mention this in the table but, well, it's a table, and the benefits of a table get lost when you begin writing disclaimers inside the cells. Use your best judgment. 

What strikes me immediately, besides how absurdly good Albert Pujols is by every available metric, is how good a prospective defensive team the Cardinals trotted out to begin the year. Ludwick's 2008 seems to have been shaky at best but he was a career centerfielder who'd acquitted himself extremely well in 2007. Ankiel's exploits in center were well-regarded for a newcomer and, as the refrain goes, he certainly had the arm for it. Glaus is the only player who didn't come into the season with either an excellent defensive reputation or every reason to have one, and even he did well by +/- coming into the season.

It's difficult to really declare it a pattern, or a Mozeliak predilection, since a guy who might be the best defensive third baseman ever was traded before the season even began, but given the Izturis signing and the Kennedy non-signing Moz's tastes certainly mesh with the valuation of players in the publicly available metrics.

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Comments

Display:

I've posted here a few times

about how good Kennedy was last year defensively. I’m just so surprised that it seems to be worth mentioning over and over. However, your table may be just as important (if not more so) than any single mention of Kennedy last year. Your table seems to suggest that perhaps Kennedy’s defensive play last year was fluky. He never had been anywhere near that good before.

I wonder to what degree it’s possible to have a flukishly good defensive season. We both wrote about a week ago about what might have been a flukishly bad defensive season for Orlando Hudson. With hitting, it makes sense. Some balls find gloves one year and holes the next, for example. Could the same be true for defenders? Some years more balls are hit 2 steps away instead of 4? I suppose so.

Good stuff, as always, Dan. And you’re right about Pujols — it’s often lost how good he is defensively, probably b/c he’s so good offensively. When announcers say that he has no weakness or no holes, they’re usually talking about him at the plate but it’s true of his entire game. Not only is he the greatest player in the game, but he’s also the most complete player in the game.

by chuckb on Nov 21, 2008 12:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yeah

The FB numbers seem to portend fluke for Adam Kennedy, and I was working on that assumption last week, but the UZR numbers from 2003-2006 show that he was almost that good in the past, too. After looking at all the numbers I could find—most of which I couldn’t post here—my guess is that Kennedy splits the difference between barely-above-average and it’s-like-two-people-are-playing-over-there.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 21, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

whoops

also, look at Duncan’s numbers for this year. I think the problem is figuring out what’s an actual fluke value year, like somebody hitting .350 all of a sudden, and what is just a fluke year within the flawed defensive metrics. Until there’s a defensive statistic that inspires OPS-ian confidence it’ll be tough to figure that out.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 21, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand all the intricate

details of how each play is rated, but is it possible that Albert’s ridiculous range helps make Kennedy look better? If Albert makes a play in Kennedy’s zone ithen that would be an OOZ play or Albert, but what is it for Kennedy?

I think we also have to remember in 2007 that his range was reduced with the bum knee – he never looked right all year to me.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 21, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, it isn't given to AK

but it isn’t deducted either, and I suppose Albert’s range means AK could play closer to second than otherwise.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Nov 21, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But didn't Rolen have a positive effect on

Eckstein on the other side of the diamond? It allowed Eckstein to play more up the middle because Rolen’s range towards second afforded him that luxury.

This year, Izturis was practically playing behind Glaus on a lot of plays.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 21, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Furthemore

I’ve often wondered about some of the defensive metrics. For example, OOZ. The Cardinals defensive alignment was completely out of wack at times last year and in 2007. They would have Chris Duncan playing places I’ve never seen LF’ers start at.

Then, we’d look at Duncan’s OOZ plays and he’d have a very respectable number. I often questioned if this was because he started OUT of the a traditional LF’ers zone, thus the ‘routine’ plays he made out of zone artificially propped up his defense.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 21, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my question is.........

What is the “zone”?

Is there some diagram of the filed that is color coded and a player who makes a play outside of that area is an out of the zone play?

Like hardcore was saying, does is account for where a guy starts? Does the zone move according to where a guy starts?

Defensive metrics are hard to understand…

by ICbirdfan on Nov 21, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i can't get to the site now

but if you look around at http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/ , you can find the answers to these questions.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Nov 21, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Those concerns are why

I like to use what I call POOZBIZ which is simply looking at all the balls a player fields as a ratio of the total balls in the zone. It misses any balls out of the zone that could have been caught, but were not – otherwise it is a pretty good tool.

Just go to hardballtimes.com and compute (Plays + OOZ)/BIZ. It is not perfect, but it correlates pretty strongly with both Justin’s numbers and Dewan’s +/-. Plus, it is readily available and you can sort it a number of ways.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 21, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I'm missing something but

OOZ is out of zone plays which is what you are saying “POOZBIZ” doesn’t include. . . do I have my wires crossed?

by azruavatar on Nov 21, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What I am saying

or at least trying to say, is that if POOZBIZ essentially corrects for any zone misalignment or defensive positioning it would only count the OOZ plays that are made, not the ones that could/should have been made but weren’t. I don’t think RZR counts OOZ plays not made, or at least not in a way that is capturable.

Using Hardcore’s Duncan example, if a fielder lines up in an atypical way that gives him an advantage in reaching certain OOZ balls, then RZR will only count the ones he actually fielded not the ones that should have been caught due to the atypical positioning.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 21, 2008 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Still confused.

OOZ plays are only counted when made, right? The not-made plays that count are the plays not made IN the zone.

Who counts OOZ plays NOT made? That wouldn’t make any sense. Why would Izturis get penalized for Adam Kennedy missing a grounder on the 2b side, or vice versa?

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2008 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, I'll try again

to continue with the Duncan example, let’s say Duncan is shifted way towards left center which would effectively shift his zone by, say, 50 ft towards CF without changing his statistical zone. Let’s further say that adjustment is the correct thing to do because for whatever reason hitters don’t take advantage by hitting the ball down the LF line. Under those circumstances Duncan would be more likely to make a higher number of OOZ plays because of how he has shifted his zone. However, there may be balls hit into his effective zone that RZR considers to be out of his zone. On those balls only, he would get an OOZ credit for each one he fielded, but there could also be balls in his effective zone that he didn’t field. Those balls would be considered OOZ so he wouldn’t be penalized for not fielding them. Therefore, his high number of OOZ could distort his real range.

This example applies when only one fielder shifts his zone. I would guess this only happens because of a coaching/scouting decision and really wouldn’t be a credit to the player. Nevertheless, he would still get the statistical credit.

The only reason I even brought this up is because my understanding is that some other vector-type systems may actually be based on the position of the player and not on a defined grid. I am pretty sure PMR would look at where the fielder was positioned and make a judgment on whether the ball should have been caught based on that.

Defensive metrics make my head hurt. I wish we had more real baseball stuff to talk about so I wouldn’t spend time on this. I am highly suspicious of the value of the metrics, but I don’t have a clear enough understanding yet to make a confident decision. My gut tells me we are spending a lot of effort on trying to objectify inherently subjective data.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 21, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You really couldn't have said

that better. It essentially sums up what I wonder about.

The only way to shorten it would be to say “If Chris Duncan starts out of the normal LF zone and makes the play, will he get credit for an OOZ play”?

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 21, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

None of the systems track fielder position to my knowledge

PMR is vector based in tracking the travel of the ball after it’s hit but I’m 95% certain that no one tracks (or shifts) their fielder position. I don’t think your stat is doing what you want it do because the zones are static in all regards.

Someday they’ll develop a software or tracking device and have players where it so they can truly measure everything. (why there’s no micro in a baseball is beyond me.)

by azruavatar on Nov 22, 2008 2:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, I vehemently disagree that this is subjective data

We may not have accurate data but there’s a measurable baseline of what an average defender should get to. That’s objective even if the metrics struggle to quantify it accurately.

by azruavatar on Nov 22, 2008 2:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was just inferring

from descriptions of PMR I have read that they predict whether the ball will be caught based on actually reviewing the play. If that is not a correct inference, then I will be happy to yield.

I am not sure what you mean by, “I don’t think your stat is doing what you want it do because the zones are static in all regards.” All I want to do is come up with a freely available stat that correlates nicely to the more sophisticated and/or proprietary ones. I think it does this very nicely. All I was trying to point out was that, in certain specific and unlikely situations, counting the OOZ plays can skew the reliability of the metric.

I agree that the zones are static, but since they are not painted on the field, then a borderline ball is subject to interpretation and that is what I mean by subjective.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 22, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What's a small sample when it comes to PMR?

Does anyone have a frame of reference as to what makes a sample too small when it comes to PMR? We know that Adam’s comparatively lower level of playing time this year must be influencing things a bit, but at what level do we think about ignoring results due to lack of attempts?

After averaging David Pinto’s columns, I come up with the following:

Avg In-play: 2409 (AK: 2036)
Avg. Actual outs: 282 (AK: 247)
Avg. Predicted outs: 283 (AK 226.55)
Avg. DER: 0.116 (AK: 0.121)
Avg. Predicted DER: 0.117 (AK: 0.111)
Avg. Ratio: 100 (AK: 109)

So Kennedy had 373 fewer outs than the average second baseman. That sounds like a lot, but I guess I don’t really know. Thoughts?

by lightbulb on Nov 21, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

kennedy played about half a season.

take those numbers, then divide kennedy’s innings played on defense by the league average and multiply it by the average outs above to see how many Kennedy would have had if he played every day.

IE :

(Avg in Play) * (kennedy IP)/(average IP) = kennedy number to compare to “avg in play” from your list

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Nov 21, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The St. Louis See-What-Sticks Bullpen

Under Jocketty, the Cards adopted a see-what-sticks philosophy to the ‘pen. Sign a bunch of AAAA players and extend some ST invites to aging, grizzled vets and we’ll see who makes the squad. When we’ve gone out and signed relievers with an established role, TLR has just as often as not seen fit not to use them in their traditional career role. So, I guess, with LOOGYs, I’m okay with a see-what-sticks mentality for filling one of the two LOOGY slots in the ‘pen, but I’d feel much better if we invested in a relatively proven, relatively young LOOGY that we have for those clutch squared situations. Thus, I sit with baited breath awaiting Mo’s next lefty relief signing…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2008 1:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

there's something to be said for acquiring depth early on

and then going forward and building the rest of the team. If one of the big names becomes available, at a decent price, pick him up and then move the depth at the dealine, if not earlier. Worst case, you are negotiating from a position of strength and best case scenario is that you have talent to move that you acquired freely.

Interestingly enough, the difference between Miller at $1.5M and Marte or Fuentes at $6-8M+ is probably less than a win. Just going off the marcels projections at fangraphs, assuming FIP = ERA and 60 IP:

               Marcels FIP	     Projected runs allowed
ohman 3.91 26.1
miller 4.16 27.7
marte 3.77 25.1
fuentes 3.76 25.1
affeldt 4.21 28.1

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Nov 21, 2008 5:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that is where projections get me

I love projections, I really do, but what did the projections say the difference was last year between Miller and Flores or Villone? I have to hope that before the season he was projected for more than 1 win.

I hope someone understands what I was getting at there.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 21, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i actually did flores and villone in my spreadsheet

but forgot to move them over. Villone is 31.6 runs, flores 28.6.

Your comment illustrates one of the shortcomings of Marcels. It bases the amount of regression it does for pitchers based on the number of innings pitched- IE a guy who throws 30 innings will get regressed much more than a guy who pitches 150, so even the best RP looks like a league-average pitcher (and the worst do, too). It was probably a poor choice of methods to use, for relievers, but I was on fangraphs and it was staring at me… maybe i should have used WPA/LI?

But still- the difference between 60 innings of 2008 real-world fuentes, and his 2.73 ERA, and Randy Flores and his 5.26 ERA would be just 16.9 runs, or less than 2 wins- and that’s close to a worst-case scenario.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Nov 21, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I don’t understand them. I could if I bothered to learn them, but frankly I don’t have the time or motivation.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Nov 21, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still working on understanding the new offensive stats

then I will move on from there… I’ve made leaps and bounds in the last year though

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 21, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

stupid question

i keep seeing the acronym “F.A.T.” on other blogs, usually in reference to young free agent relievers without much major league experience (i.e. ostlund).

so, what does it stand for?

(it will probably be something completely obvious…)

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 21, 2008 6:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

freely available talent

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Nov 21, 2008 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ah.

i see.

thanks.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 21, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This includes things like minor league free agents, right?

I too am still a little unfamiliar with F.A.T. However, beyond the box score tells me that it rules us all the way Jess Todd and Amaury Marti will someday enslave the human race with pure awesome.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i think its mostly referring to them.

i took it to mean guys who can be signed for league minimum, which would include minor league free agents.

however, this list includes players such as everett ($2.8M in 08) and izturis ($2.85M in 08), as well as kennedy ($4M in 09), who isn’t even a free agent.

so, i’m confused.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 21, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OT: I heard on the radio today

on XM that a study was done not too long ago that 80% of MLB FA pitchers who are signed to long term contracts under perform their career averages in the first year of their contract.

Has anyone else heard this? Does anyone know where to find this study?

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 21, 2008 8:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

it makes sense

they probably have a psychological thing going on where they know they’ve already “made it” so they don’t have to try as hard, or something like that

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 21, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or that there best years

are behind them. That as always been my argument with giving bog contracts to pitchers. The way that they have to earn them seems to me to be the main reason that they underachieve.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 21, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

their. grrrr

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 21, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe they are trying too hard to impress the new team & fans?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2008 2:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes. There is enormous pressure to "live up" to the new contract.

Prove to the fans and the team you really are worth all that money. Not to mention an adjustment period (Josh Beckett, anyone?) when changing teams and/or leagues. Oh, yes. Add in the normal wear and tear that all pitchers endure. I don’t think personally that the “I made it” mentality is much of a factor, at least not for most of them.

It’s better to buy a bat. You generally get what you pay for.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Nov 22, 2008 8:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Underperforming

I hadn’t seen that, but it’s certainly interesting. I won’t say it’s surprising, though. And I don’t think it’s a psychological effect or anything even that involved. I think it’s just a matter of timing. Look at the age that most pitchers are signing long term deals.

We all know that players are under the control of the team that drafted them for the first six years of their careers, right? Well, in all reality, it’s usually a couple years longer than that. Take Adam Wainwright, for instance. His rookie season was in 2006. He signed a deal before this season that guarantees him four years, plus options for fifth and sixth. By the end of that deal, in 2013, Adam will have been a Cardinal for eight years. Basing this on nothing other than just sort of logic, I would think that’s a fairly typical tenure for a good young player who comes up with a team. Plenty don’t make it that long, of course, but if they aren’t good enough to get locked up for a couple of years beyond their arbitration season, they probably aren’t signing a long term contract anyway.

After the ‘13 season, Wainwright will be 32 years old. He’ll be a free agent for the first time, and if he continues to pitch anything like he has the last couple of years, you have to think that somebody will be all kinds of eager to hand him a big contract for about four or five years. Of course, that four or five year deal will begin in Wainer’s age 33 season. Coincidentally (or perhaps not), that’s right around the age that a lot of players will begin to decline a bit. Again, I’m not looking anything up here, but I would bet lots of players, pitchers especially, underperform their career numbers in their age 33 season. I think it just so happens that a lot of guys hit free agency right around the same time they’re hitting the years that they begin to lose a bit off their fastball, both literally and figuratively.

Like I said, I’m just sort of theorizing wildly here. But we always see players sign contracts that buy out their last couple of arbitration seasons and their first year or two of free agency. After that, they leave the team that developed them and sign a long term deal. Guys typically get to the league at about age 23-25, so that eight year hypothetical period with their original club puts them right around 31-33 when they hit free agency. The timing, I think, just makes players likely to underperform at least one year right around there.

Yet another reason it’s important to develop your own talent, rather than trying to buy it.

Victory is sweet, even deep in the cheap seats.

by the red baron on Nov 21, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

What’s really amazing is that your comment actually managed to travel back in time to do so. Freaking awesome.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Nov 22, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I noticed that little red box in the corner

as I was typing it out. The one that said “the red baron commented” or whatever.
I knew right then you were gonna get the better of me, but that is what I expect out of you.

I should have went along with the time traveling thing!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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