True Value
Every year, Tom Tango asks his readers to evaluate defensive players by what they see, rather than looking at statistical metrics and, surprisingly, every year the voting ends up looking pretty solid when compared to the metrics. Once again, Albert and Yadi won the Fans Scouting Report as well. I wonder if fans’ perception of these 2 players defensive abilities will end up being reflected in the more well-known awards – the MVP and the Gold Glove. Yadi deserved a GG last year (and Pujols won one) and Pujols again should win this year. A few weeks ago, I argued that this year was probably Yadi’s worst defensive season yet and, probably, his best season overall considering the strides he made at the plate. I’m not sure he deserves a GG this year, though John Dewan and Tango’s fans seem to disagree. We’ll see. It’ll also be interesting to see if Pujols’ defense, which now appears to be widely regarded as the best in the league at his position, helps him win the MVP despite the Cards’ 4th place finish.
Today I want to look at value. Which Cards’ players were the most and least valuable last season. In using the term "value" here, I’m not seeking to figure out who our best players were or even who contributed the most to Cards’ wins. That would be a spectacular waste of time since we all know the answer. By "value" here, I want to look at who provided the most production per dollar. Who was the best bargain and who did we overpay the most? Albert’s undoubtedly our best player but we probably got more production per dollar from Ryan Ludwick since his salary was 1/39th Albert’s.
The aforementioned Tom Tango has determined that the market value of a marginal win – a win above what a replacement-level player would provide – is worth about $4.4 M. An "average" major league ballplayer is 2 wins above replacement level – thus worth about $8.8 M per year.
What’s striking about the Cards’ payroll last season is how many relatively high priced players we had who produced absolutely zero. Most, of course was due to injuries. Still, if you combine Carpenter’s, Izzy’s, Encarnacion’s, and Mulder’s salaries, we paid $31.5 M to get negative 1win above replacement. Put another way, we paid more than $31 million to 4 players to play 1 win worse than replacement-level players would’ve played. That’s nearly 30% of our payroll that went to guys who were about the same or worse than Memphis Redbirds would’ve been. If you like, add in Pineiro and Kennedy to those 4 and that brings us to about .7 wins below replacement for a total of $40 M. About 40% of our payroll was worse than replacement level. It’s amazing that we could win 86 games w/ numbers like that. Successful teams don’t often carry so much dead weight. (Still think Pujols wasn’t valuable, voters?)
WAR is wins above replacement. Value per WAR is the expected market value of their performance based on their WAR. Salary is 2008’s salary in millions. Value to team is the difference between their value per WAR and their 2008 salary. Positive numbers mean the player performed better than expected to based on his salary (i.e.: he was underpaid). The opposite is true for negative numbers.
| WAR | Value per WAR | Salary | Value to team | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ludwick | 5 | $22 | $0.411 | $21.589 |
| Pujols | 7.7 | $33.88 | $16 | $17.88 |
| Wainwright | 3 | $13.2 | $0.5 | $12.7 |
| Wellemeyer | 3 | $13.2 | $1 | $12.2 |
| Lohse | 3 | $13.2 | $4.25 | $8.95 |
| Lopez | 1.7 | $7.48 | $0.13 | $7.35 |
| Skip | 1.7 | $7.48 | $0.396 | $7.084 |
| Yadi | 2 | $8.8 | $1.75 | $7.05 |
| Ankiel | 1.7 | $7.48 | $0.9 | $6.58 |
| Looper | 2.1 | $9.24 | $5.5 | $3.74 |
| Perez | 0.2 | $3.08 | $0.39 | $2.69 |
| Glaus | 3.3 | $14.52 | $12.5 | $2.02 |
| Springer | 1.1 | $4.84 | $3.5 | $1.34 |
| KMac | 0.1 | $1.32 | $0.39 | $0.93 |
| Franklin | 0.7 | $3.08 | $2.25 | $0.83 |
| Miles | 0.3 | $1.32 | $1.4 | -$.08 |
| Kennedy | 0.3 | $1.32 | $3.5 | -$2.18 |
| Izturis | -0.3 | -$1.32 | $2.85 | -$4.17 |
| Pineiro | 0 | $0 | $5 | -$5 |
| Carp | 0.3 | $1.32 | $10.5 | -$9.18 |
| Izzy | -1 | -$4.4 | $8 | -$12.4 |
Is a $21.5 M benefit to the club enough evidence to support the notion that Ryan Ludwick ought to get some top-10 MVP love? If it’s not, there’s something wrong. Pujols is simply tremendous and, while people may complain about players’ salaries, it’s indisputable that Pujols is one of the most UNDERPAID players in the game – despite being the highest paid player on a $100+M payroll team. Lopez’s salary and numbers reflect those w/ the Cards only. The Cards were responsible only for a prorated portion of the league minimum – roughly $130K. He was tremendously valuable over his 2 months in uniform.
We’ve got to get more out of our middle infielders – we know that. Our right-handed relief corps, Izzy excepted, was pretty good. Moreover, Perez and KMac are young and should get better. Our starters, Pineiro excepted, were pretty good. Aside from Wainwright, they’re not standouts and his value would’ve been higher had he not missed 2 ½ months or so. If the wagonmaker had pitched the entire season, his value would’ve likely been up over $20 M. We got a ton out of Lohse, even more than I expected going in, and I was pretty sanguine on the signing.
Aside from that, I think the numbers speak for themselves. It should add a little insight to the numbers that Looper can probably expect this offseason as he goes for his first free agent contract as a starter. He’ll likely get at least 2 years, and maybe 3 in the $16 – 26 M range. It also gives us an idea as to what kind of numbers Ankiel’s likely to get after next season if he continues to improve. He was worth $7.5 M last season and had only 463 PAs. If he can play 140 games this season and get up over 600 PAs, he’s going to get at least $10 M per season for 3-4 seasons.
Finally, I think we can see what opportunities will open up once we are able to extricate ourselves from some of that contractual dead weight. If Carp can’t provide us anything, that contract’s going to be a heavy weight going forward as it escalates.
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Terrific post. If not Yadi for a GG award, who has been better? I think a lot of the starters' success is attributable to Yadi's game calling.
The pen, awful as it was, would have been infinitely worse with a mediocre catcher . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on
Nov 2, 2008 2:06 AM EDT
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There is really no evidence
that Yadi’s game calling is any significant factor whatsoever. All the gameplans on how to attack the hitters are formulated by Dave Duncan and shared with both catchers. Looper, Wellemeyer, and Pineiro all were more effective, as judged by opponents slash lines, when LaRue caught them. Wainer was about the same and Lohse was better when Yadi caught him.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 2, 2008 11:01 AM EST
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this
also, fielding
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 3:15 PM EST
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small samp
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Nov 3, 2008 5:41 PM EST
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Laying game calling aside
As was pointed out early in the season, Yadi’s poor percentage on stolen-base attempts is deceptive. Lohse, in particular, surrendered a lot of early-season steals simply by not working hard to hold guys at first and by having a slow motion to the plate. That’s hard for even the best defensive catcher to overcome.
Note too that Yadi only had 52 guys try to run on him this year. Pro-rated, that would have been about 70 if he’d played 100% of the time. No team in baseball, except the ponderous Padres, attempted that few steals. He was just as good at destroying the running game this year as ever; he just got less help from his pitchers.
by StanTheManFan on
Nov 2, 2008 3:21 PM EST
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excellent post
I would have expected Luwick to really be much higher on the list than El Hombre because of the difference in salary. That they are so close again points out how great Albert is.
by nmstar on
Nov 2, 2008 8:44 AM EST
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Pujols: Best Player in Game
He’s the best hitter in the game, and he is a Gold Glove caliber first baseman. While he’s not blessed with speed, he is a very smart baserunner. He has come a long way since hitting that home run to win the PCL championship for Memphis in 2000.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on
Nov 2, 2008 9:14 AM EST
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Glaus
Where did he fall in the Fielding Bible?
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on
Nov 2, 2008 9:15 AM EST
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Looks like glaus
finished 11th behind Arod. I can’t believe Rolen is 3rd and he only played 115 games.
http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/complete-votetally.asp
"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."
by Bahamaredbird on
Nov 2, 2008 10:05 AM EST
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lohse, 13.2 value per war in 08
suggests his resigning was at below market value.
his production could fall off slightly over the next 4 years, at roughly 10mil avg invested, and still remain a positive “value to team”.
if he holds his 08 production, while the “market value of a marginal win” inflates the next 4 yrs, he becomes a very good signing, as a “FA to be” extended.
by ball in play on
Nov 2, 2008 9:58 AM EST
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I don't necessarily see it that way
This year his value was $13.2M, and his contract will give him an average of $10M a year. That to me says that if he had always pitched like a $13.2M pitcher, then we signed him to a great deal. However, he had a career year, and he was only worth $3.2M over what we will be paying him the next four years in his career year. It’s a great deal if you expect him to keep it up, but I don’t. He may be better than previously, but I can’t get over his previous numbers.
ERA+
2004 – 89
2005 – 106
2006 – 78
2007 – 100
2008 – 113
$10M a year isn’t a good price for what he’s done outside of 2008.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on
Nov 2, 2008 10:17 AM EST
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i agree with the players career norms
being a true indicator. your concern lohse might not be a favorable signing long term, is valid, based on his norms.
lohse career norms do have alot of developmental years in them, at the mlb level.
i probably overvalue “as a cardinal”.
when onfield managment can raise an acquired players value, i also credit them with helping maintain that level, barring injury.
their track record is very good. edmonds being the best example. wellemeyer the latest.
my “homerism” shines bright some times :) lohse spent his career reaching his peak . i’m looking for the platue right after peak. the slight age related decline in skills, but knows how to pitch effectivly.
by ball in play on
Nov 2, 2008 11:26 AM EST
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I can appreciate the "homerism" :)
I’m pulling for him just as much as you are, and I expect him to be slightly better than his career averages in STL. I just don’t want to get my hopes up.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on
Nov 2, 2008 11:34 AM EST
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our "half full" approach
could also look at his career norms rise, and hope his next 2 years are his peak.
he might pitch though age 35 or 36. he can already pitch w/out relying on overpowering.
the 5 yrs we have him, could eventually be his best, in hindsight.
by ball in play on
Nov 2, 2008 11:45 AM EST
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could repeat
the one reason i see that he could repeat his performance is gb/fb ratio.
01 – .89
02 – .83
03 – .90
04 – 1.18
05 – 1.25
06 – 1.18
07 – .95
08 – 1.54
that is a pretty dramatic improvement and seems a result of philosophy change. and if it is a result of philosophy change then it would also seem to be repeatable.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Nov 3, 2008 12:12 AM EST
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To be Fair
You left out defense metric’s in value. That is a huge part in players like Iz2 and Kennedy. You talk about Tom Tango’s metric’s but didn’t even use them.
I have looked over some similiar articles that use RAR to judge values
http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2008/10/preliminary-2008-total-value-estimates.html
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 11:31 AM EST
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wsab
has both offensive and defensive win shares, in its formula, to establish wsab.
by ball in play on
Nov 2, 2008 12:12 PM EST
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defensive win shares are pretty quick and dirty, and they do underestimate the value izturis and kennedy provided. may have overestimated lopez’s value as well.
by greenback06 on
Nov 2, 2008 12:28 PM EST
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making 160 gs wouldn’t have hurt cesars chances of matching o-cabs 8 def w.s. in a 19 expws season.
cesar’s 110 gs helped limit his win shares of 4.6 in a 13 expws season.
kennedy 80 gs in a 10 expws season, earns 2.1 win shares.
the defensive ratios of, earned / available to earn, are there for me with quality factored in.
by ball in play on
Nov 2, 2008 2:17 PM EST
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don't know if this answers your question but
how to calculate WAR
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/how_to_calculate_war/
"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."
by Bahamaredbird on
Nov 2, 2008 10:32 AM EST
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the problem I see
w/ Tango’s WAR calculator is that there’s no defensive metric. There’s no way to distinguish Pujolsian fielders from Howardian defenders, for example.
by chuckb on
Nov 2, 2008 4:19 PM EST
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just pick a good one and use it
Pujols gets, say +15 more runs and Howard gets, say -5 runs
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 4:42 PM EST
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the first thing that popped into my head when i saw WAR was jim rome
and for the life of me i couldn’t understand why HTown, err,,,i mean chuck (sorry. i’m still getting used to the switch) was quoting rome.
if they ever come up with a stat that spells out “rack him”, i think we’ll all know the world is about to end
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Nov 2, 2008 11:11 AM EST
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i love this exercise
it’s always fun to see just how good some players were. It’s also scary to think about how much albert might cost 4 years from now.
otoh, it is a big assumption to say that “memphis redbirds” would automatically be capable of replacement level production, especially if “replacement” is set so high that albert was only worth 7.7 wins this year.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on
Nov 2, 2008 12:32 PM EST
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albert's value
some people scoffed at my mention of 30 mil a year for albert. obviously he might get a discount but the point is he can get that amount on the on market if he wants it.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Nov 3, 2008 12:19 AM EST
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Yadi
Make him the Rays catcher during the WS, and they have a much better shot. I couldn’t believe what Navarro was whiffing on.
by Hoffa on
Nov 2, 2008 1:01 PM EST
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Or they could of just had Barry Bonds as their DH and Won
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 1:21 PM EST
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agree, the Rays have horrible DH options.......
by ICbirdfan on
Nov 2, 2008 1:53 PM EST
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Arguably the Rays lost
because they couldn’t use a DH in Philly. As generally weak as Aybar was, he was 10X better than the Rays’ pitchers.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 2, 2008 6:04 PM EST
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every team blog should run this analysis
thanks for doing it for the Cards.
nitpitck — I, too, would use Justin’s stats instead of Win Shares
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 3:17 PM EST
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so you would take
Pujols’ roughly 10 wins above replacement and use Tango’s $4.4 M per WAR to estimate value? (really about 9.8 WAR?)
by chuckb on
Nov 2, 2008 4:26 PM EST
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yes.
make sure to add in $400K for minimum salary, although that’s nitpicking.
A side note: to hold individual players responsible for their salary isn’t fair. Pujols should be MVP no matter whether he makes $1MM or $100MM. But as a way to judge organizations, it’s a good method. It’s also a good way to describe player value: some people don’t get what WAR is, but they understand when you say “Bob was worth $12MM and Steve was worth $4MM in 2008”
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 4:48 PM EST
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Total Value is where it's at
Total value (TotalValue) measures value above replacement level for position players, in runs. It is based on hitting (Runs Above Replacement; RAR), as well as a composite fielding measure (average runs saved according to zone rating and revised zone rating). This measure also includes adjustments for differences in difficulty among defensive positions, as well as differences in difficulty of leagues (AL>NL). Pitchers are rated via two measures—RAR (runs above replacement) and FIP-Runs. RAR measures actual value similar to total value for position players, whereas FIP-Runs is a defense-independent estimate of value. Closers receive a bonus reflecting the leverage of situations in which they pitch.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfdux2FC_hs6ROEQ&gid=0
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 4:49 PM EST
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Could use some help
I made a spreadsheet of all the Cardinal Hitters by Total Value
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=plm0s-kSSQDxdBDnZi9bIEQ&hl=en
I would make a Matrix but I have no clue how. I will do the pitcher’s in a second. Now I could be wrong but I am under the assumption for every +10 of Total Value equals $4.4 mil.
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 5:10 PM EST
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Try This
Please Tell me you guys can actual see this too cause I am not sure if I have the right share values
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 5:11 PM EST
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whither Yadi?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 2, 2008 7:14 PM EST
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matrix?
I would go with something more like 9.3 runs = 1 win, but yes.
(runs per win is just about twice the league-average runs-per-game, per team. use whatever that is in the NL. the AL is a bit higher, although it’s barely significant)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 5:13 PM EST
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if by matrix you mean pivot tables in Excel, it's way easier than anyone thinks
i’ll walk you through it via email or IM if you want.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 5:20 PM EST
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I would appreciate that
My E-Mail is FlimtotheFlam@gmail.com . I don’t mind doing the work to make a Fan Post pretty duplicating Chuckb’s work just based on Total Value instead.
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 5:22 PM EST
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Excel is one of the things that Microsoft has consistently done well.
Pivot tables, macros, formulas to drag and drop. . . my life would be a lot more difficult without excel.
by azruavatar on
Nov 2, 2008 6:50 PM EST
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I really need to get better at it
As someone that used to be an analyst I suck at Excel. I used to work with a guy that was a Jedi Master of Excel. I think he could of shot a co-worker and they wouldn’t of fired him.
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 7:11 PM EST
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if you're in stl
The local community colleges have some total gurus. I worked with a guy like that, and he taught at St. Charles. STLCC is pretty good too. I should get another one of those courses, so that I too may grow stronger with the Force.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on
Nov 2, 2008 9:40 PM EST
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this is easier than a pivot table for getting out the card's data
select all of justin’s data. go to data, filter, and select auto filter. click on the little arrow box at the top of the team colums. select stl. it’ll hide everyone other than cardinals players.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Nov 2, 2008 10:02 PM EST
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So then what does this say about Felipe Lopez?
We have his ‘cost’ as far as salary clearly going up should the team resign him, his production most certainly going down if nothing else as a reversion the mean and any weighting against 162 games of his defense at whatever position Tony pretends he can play that day dragging his overall value down.
But, he was, as you say, extremely valuable to the Cardinals over the last two months of the season. Should we simply ignore that and stick to what we ‘assume’ will happen, that being he isn’t a very good defensive MIF and he certainly isn’t as good offensively as he showed?
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 2, 2008 7:01 PM EST
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He was super lucky
He had a BABIP of 0.434 when it should of been something more like .300. His OPS was .964 but based upon his ‘true’ stats should of been more like .756. Add in the fact he has just a horrible glove I say no way.
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 2, 2008 7:20 PM EST
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Lohse.
Lohse was worth 3 wins above replacement in 2008, which, statistically, was one of his best seasons.
Now that he’s signed that 12MM/yr deal, he’s pretty much going to have to stay a +3 WAR player for his entire duration for the contract to look good(him to be a positive/zero value to his team). That looks interesting.
Still, ouch at Izzy. Just ouch.
The Dirty Canuck of the now.
by Blicks on
Nov 2, 2008 9:16 PM EST
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Not really
FA salaries increase at ~10% yearly, so using that as a discount rate the NPV of his deal is 31.98, meaning he has to average 8 million in value a year in today’s dollars (a little less than 2 WAR) over the course of the contract. If he follows a 3→2→2→1 WAR career path that makes it a fair market deal. I think that type of career path is very possible; this isn’t a great deal and it’s not a terrible deal, it’s fair market.
Going back to the long running discussion awhile back regarding backloading, it’s really hit me that it makes no sense why no one does frontload contracts at the same NPV. 13-10.5-10.5-5 would have the same NPV, so no one on either side would be losing any real dollars, but they’d actually be paying out the appropriate money for the value they’d be getting year-by-year.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
by joker24 on
Nov 3, 2008 12:43 AM EST
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one interesting side effect
is that if the player had a 2008 izzy kind of season, the team would have more incentive and less risk in offering arbitration on your proposed contract…
Still don’t know that it makes a lot of sense to do this, but this is another point in favor of this kind of structuring.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on
Nov 5, 2008 2:42 PM EST
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