Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: NHL Free Agency Coverage: NHL Rumors, NHL Signings & Trades
spread the word

Most Plays for Playoff Teamable Player

Jack_benny_tiny by DanUpBaby on Comment 356 comments

or: If Albert Wins, This Is Also A Very Long Open Thread

So the NL MVP is being announced today—keep the timestamp in mind, since we here at Viva El Birdos like to combine the amateurish nature of blogging with the slow-paced, deadline-focused structure of newspapers—and I'm going to be honest: if Ryan Howard wins it, that's it. I'm done. The BBWAA can pick their winners and so can the Scientologists, for all I care, but I'm not going to pay any undeserved attention to either set. 

Ryan Howard, if he wins, will win because he drove in 32 runs down the stretch in an admittedly great month of September to Lead the Phillies to the Playoffs. Here is a list of the players' hitting by month, ordered by raw EQA—Baseball Prospectus doesn't give out the adjustment that makes it look like batting average, so far as I can tell—to adjust for Howard's high slugging percentage and Pujols's high OBP. 

# Hitter Month G AVG OBP SLG EQA
1 Howard Sept 25 .352 .422 .852 1.235
2 Pujols Aug 26 .398 .491 .745 1.193
3 Pujols May 27 .373 .454 .706 1.125
4 Pujols Apr 29 .365 .523 .594 1.104
5 Pujols Sept 25 .321 .427 .702 1.097
6 Pujols July 27 .347 .413 .564 1.004
7 Pujols June 14 .302 .444 .558 0.991
8 Howard July 25 .311 .366 .612 0.969
9 Howard May 29 .238 .344 .590 0.928
10 Howard Aug 29 .213 .328 .463 0.795
11 Howard June 26 .234 .287 .439 0.736
12 Howard Apr 28 .172 .297 .343 0.670

For three months this year—out of six!—Ryan Howard was the bad Richie Sexson, or Cory Snyder, or Dave Kingman, or any other stiff, godawful slugger who couldn't reach first base if his arms were ninety feet long. Giving him the MVP would reward him for that. 

In his three great months—the ones where he was carrying the Philadelphia Phillies to the World Series on his back, uphill—Howard hit .297/.375/.675. That OPS is sixty-five points lower than Albert Pujols's year-long mark. Albert Pujols was better than Ryan Howard with the bat all year. He was better when his team won (.401/.516/.789 vs .294/.382/.620) and when his team lost (.306/.396/.498 vs. .192/.279/.438); he was better in the first half and improved his numbers in the second half—like Howard did—only he was way better again; he was better at day and at night, in domes and in the open, in the rain, the sleet, and the snow, always and forever. 

Albert Pujols hit better with two strikes on him—.270/.351/.460—than Ryan Howard did in April, June, and August.

He did all this while playing the best defensive first base in the league; while being a far better baserunner; while playing in a pitcher's park. 

This MVP would be far more about the Philadelphia Phillies having better pitchers than it would be about Ryan Howard's value. If the Phillies had Albert Pujols in the lineup in April, May, and June there would be no need for a late-season surge, and, more importantly, Ryan Howard would be pinch-hitting for Cole Hamels all year. If the Phillies had Albert Pujols in the lineup in September they still would have made the playoffs, and they probably would have had the same record. If Ryan Howard wins this year the old joke will really be true: he'll have two MVP awards and zero Albert Pujols awards. 

0 recs | Comment 356 comments | Share on Facebook Digg!

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Viva El Birdos

The NL All-Star Team, according to chuck

Jul 2009 by chuckb - 325 comments

Walking Pujols

Jun 2009 by chuckb - 159 comments

choosing up sides

Jun 2009 by lboros - 296 comments

An unfortunate Odalliance

Feb 2009 by DanUpBaby - 127 comments

Panic Attacks

Feb 2009 by DanUpBaby - 253 comments

Around SB Nation

Dusty Baker has no idea what the hell he's doing, the bullpen loses this one 7-4

Jul 2009 from Red Reporter - 27 comments

Blogger Smackdown: Peter Baker Of The Good Phight

Jul 2009 from Amazin' Avenue - 2 comments

Phillies vs. Mets: July 3-5

Jul 2009 from The Good Phight - 2 comments

How valuable is Daniel Bard?

Jul 2009 from Over the Monster - 25 comments

Pujols vs. Mets First Basemen: Who Ya Got?

Jul 2009 from Amazin' Avenue - 4 comments

Read More: most valuable player, Albert Pujols (1B - STL), Ryan Howard (1B - PHI)

Comments

Display:

If Howard wins...

If Howard wins the person that should be the most upset is Chase Utley, shoot even if Howard comes in second Utley should be pissed. How is Howard the MVP of the league when Utley is the MVP of the Phillies is beyond me. I would like to see your chart above including Utley too since I can’t find a site with EQA stats and it seems you might already have a spreadsheet for it. Also what about Berkman or Jones or any of the other top batters this year? Doing a quick look at RC/27 Howard was 27th in the league, Pujols 1st and Utley 7th, how Howard is even in the MVP debate is beyond me.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 8:41 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have crystallized my thoughts eloquently

and actually provided facts to back them up.

by sdrone on Nov 17, 2008 9:13 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Better pitchers"

and also more guys on base in front of Howard. A large part of the reason for those RBI totals was that the top of the Philadelphia lineup had distinctly higher on-base percentages (Rollins: .349; Victorino: .352; Werth: .363; Utley: .380, for starters) than the guys in front of Pujols (Skippy: .359; Iz2: .319; Dunc: .346; Ank: .337; Mather: .306; Barton: .354 — Floppy fought this trend, but not in time to help much, and often wasn’t batting “in front of” AP). That’s one reason why statheads, of whom I count myself one, tend to denigrate RBIs when it comes to evaluating performance — and value.

As for the “credibility” of the BBWAA, remember that three of these clowns voted for a player in the Rookie of the Year balloting who wasn’t even a rookie. They’re an atavistic anachronism, and their awards can be ignored already.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 17, 2008 9:43 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interestingly enough

the Cardinals 1-2 slots were pretty comparable with OBPs of .345 and .371 respectively, compared to Philly’s 1-2s of .356 and .347. Big difference in 3 spot of .359 compared to 9 spot of .322. So Howard gets a significant advantage by hitting fourth, especially in the first inning. For example, in spite of Albert having 35% more PAs in the first inning, Howard had twice as many HRs and 77% more RBIs.

Also, OBP doesn’t tell the whole story. The Phillies 1-3 hitters were far more efficient at getting into scoring position. They combined for 122 doubles, 22 triples, and 104 stolen bases while the Cardinals 9-2 hitters had 84 doubles, 13 triples, and 40 stolen bases. Thus, Howard had 24.2% more ABs with runners on base and a ridiculous 52.2% more opportunities with runners in scoring position. Makes you wonder what kind of numbers Albert would put up with the same opportunity.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 10:35 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not scientific

but if you assume the additional 52.2% of the chances were equal to the ones he already had and that he performed in the same Albert-like manner, that would extrapolate to 177 RBI.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 1:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think I know the answer to this, but humor me.
Makes you wonder what kind of numbers Albert would put up with the same opportunity.

What kind of opportunity are you talking about?

  1. Hitting 4th in the Philly lineup.
  2. Hitting 4th in the Cardinal lineup.

I know you’re an advocate of hitting Albert 4th. But I think him hitting 4th in the Cardinal lineup is much different than him hitting 4th in the Philly lineup. Philly would have 2 pretty good hitters behind him (Burrell, Victorino/Werth). Albert would have 1 good one (Glaus) and some combo of Ankiel/Molina/pu-pu platter, because Ludwick would have to hit third.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2008 1:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess I meant

Albert hitting fourth in the Philly lineup, but of course we can’t even contemplate Albert playing for Philly so somehow we would have to acquire their top of the order guys.

As far as hitting fourth for the Cardinals, I don’t really buy the lack of protection argument much as nobody can really protect Albert. Manny maybe, but that isn’t going to happen. However, I think he makes the guys hitting in front of him better and he gets better pitches to hit when they get on base in front of him. From the previous discussion we had on lineup toys, it seems like if we are not going to bat him at the top of the order then 4th is a better spot than 3rd.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 2:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I did a little research on the ROB opportunities

Howard had 351 plate appearances with runners on base. There were a total of 483 runners on base in those 351 plate appearances (224 at 1st; 170 at 2nd; 89 at 3rd). That ranks 8th in MLB.

Pujols had 322 plate appearances with runners on base. There were a total of 438 runners on base in those 322 plate appearances (235 at 1st; 131 at 2nd; 70 at 3rd). That ranks 31st in MLB.

That means Howard had 45 more men on base. Furthermore, Howard had 259 men at second or third (in scoring position with a single) versus 201 for Pujols.

Of players with more than 300 plate appearances, Howard finished 6th and Pujols 7th in driving in players from 1st base (11.2 vs. 11.1). Howard was much better at driving in players from 2nd base. He ranked 10th (24.7) versus 142nd (16) for Pujols. Pujols ranked was much better at driving in runners from 3rd base at 45.7 (40th among all MLB). Howard was ranked 180th (34.8%).

This doesn’t take into account the easier hitting environment of Citizens Park versus Busch Stadium.

Stats are from Baseball Prospectus.

by UofIx3 on Nov 18, 2008 5:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

did you subtract IBB's?

Albert was IBB’s 26 times with men on 2nd or men on 2nd and 3rd, and 9 times with men on 3rd and less than 2 out. Howard was IBB’d 12 and 4, respectively. That is 19 fewer chances that Albert had, in prime RB opportunities.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Nov 19, 2008 12:41 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Goold already did this analysis

on Bird Land, but I don’t have a good link atm, just search through his old blogs to find it. Basically he took the rate stats from both players and gave Pujols the same RBI chances that Howard had.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 2:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, I've got a class today:

about what time do they announce these things?

by craig3410 on Nov 17, 2008 9:44 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2 PM Eastern Time

For the record, we don’t Howard should win, either.

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 9:47 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don't THINK he should win

eom, I’m a dummy

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 9:47 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Saw your post already.

Nice preemptive strike there!

P.S. – I like your user name, very clever.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 17, 2008 9:54 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I definitely rooted for Howard to win in 2006, Pujols was “better” by most advanced and basic metrics, but it was still close enough that I was happy to be a homer. Ditto Rollins in 2007.

This time I’d just be embarrassed.

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 10:01 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks for chiming in, WC

Always good to hear an outside perspective.

by DCGreg on Nov 17, 2008 11:23 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More reasons why Albert Dominated - RARP & WARP3

Leads Chipper Jones by Runs Above Replacement, Position-adjusted (RARP) by nearly 20 damn runs.

Ryan Howard is the 6th-best 1B in RARP, trailing both Carlos Delgado(!) and Prince Fielder(!!).

And though a lot of us here aren’t huge fans of WARP due to BP’s not-so-great fielding metrics, I think it’s worth pointing out that Albert’s Danvenport-Translated WARP3 (wins above replacement adjusted for all-time is 13.5 – that’s the highest of his career.

So yeah, no MVP for Albert is a travesty and an indication that the BB in BBWAA might as well stand for Bocce Ball.

by lightbulb on Nov 17, 2008 9:57 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Greatest quote on the matter:
It’s the hardest award to vote," said Paul Sullivan, Chicago Cubs beat writer for the Chicago Tribune. Sullivan voted Howard first, Pujols second. "Contributing to a team that makes it (to the postseason) is a key element for me. If someone was way ahead of everyone else and didn’t make it, I’d consider him. But I don’t see that as the case."

:sob:

by craig3410 on Nov 17, 2008 9:58 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there is a reason

newspapers are dying!!!

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Nov 17, 2008 10:14 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

What a dolt

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Nov 18, 2008 2:49 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"but i don't see that as the case"

there you have it.
the bbwaa as a group has an idiot level of understanding a players worth.

by ball in play on Nov 17, 2008 10:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's a Cubs beatwriter....

He’s still sore that Derrek Lee didn’t win it in 2004, the only year that he’ll ever have a chance.

I’d also like to hear his defense of Andre Dawson winning it for a last place Cubs team in 1987 when there were 3 candidates that were clearly more qualified and had made the playoffs that season.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2008 10:33 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you mean Derrek Lee in 2005?

He did have a strong case for it that year. Andruw Jones, not so much…
For the record I don’t care about the playoffs being, in itself, a qualification. But I totally agree with you that they are maddeningly inconsistent with the playoffs angle. Blah!

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 10:46 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well maybe if Davey Concepcion had won more MVP awards

then I’d give the BBWAA a pass. But I haven’t watched Concepcion play that much, so I can’t say for certain. He is going to have to be leader on that team, but no player can really carry his team by himself anymore, except Gary Sheffield when he’s being consistently consistent. It’s a matter of concetrating [sic]. But there are no great teams anymore.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 10:55 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe Strauss

I thought the whole article (capped by the Sullivan quote) was far more favorable to Howard than warranted. No mention at all of how Pujols dominates Howard using any quasi-sophisticated statistical measure (not even OBP or OPS).

It reminded me that the author, Joe Strauss, said something on one of his chats a while back that made me think he might be voting for Howard over Pujols. I’ll be very interested to see how he voted.

by DCGreg on Nov 17, 2008 11:15 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I couldn't even read that article

Are you talking about the one in the P-D over the weekend? The table of “statistics” seemed intentionally designed to cherry-pick numbers that supported a pre-determined conclusion; that this was a close MVP race with “no clear front-runner”. It’s like he was thinking, “how can I slice and dice some stats so that Howard has about as many advantages as Pujols?” I couldn’t believe a St. Louis sports writer produced it. I’d expect at least a little homerism, especially since in this case the homerism coincides with near-undeniable truth.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nah

DCGreg is probably talking about one of Joe’s last chats where he talked about being torn between both sides, Albert’s off the chart year or someone with power #‘s that get their team to the playoffs. Said he didn’t know which way he was going to vote.

at least he was honest, but still

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 17, 2008 11:53 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+100

Even some Eastern Seaboard Programming Network folks (Stark, Kurkjian, etc.) agree that Albert is the only logical choice for MVP. Well, except for Gammons. He’d find a way to give it to a Red Sock if he could.

"Better teach this kid some control before he kills somebody" - Lou Brown (Major League)

by TurdFerguson on Nov 17, 2008 12:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Side note

It’s become increasingly annoying how Rob Neyer is getting the contrarian this-isn’t-defensible-but-I’m-still-doing-it-to-draw-attention-to-something bent he has. Lance Berkman?? Really? Sadly it’s still a better pick than Howard but there isn’t a world out there where Berkman is an MVP this year.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 12:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

I think guys like Neyer, Keith Law and Steve Phillips are in some sort of contest to prove they’re smarter than anyone else. Unfortunately for them, I think the opposite usually happens.

"Better teach this kid some control before he kills somebody" - Lou Brown (Major League)

by TurdFerguson on Nov 17, 2008 12:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But in all worlds

Berkman and Jones and Beltran and H. Ramirez and Utley et al. are all better choices than Ryan Howard, even if they’re also not MVPs.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 12:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

*holds my nose*

But at least they have reasons to pick Howard. They’re bad reasons, they’re dumb reasons, they’re wrong reasons, but they’re reasons. I can understand the line of thinking much like I can understand why my dog chases a ball: they just don’t know better and if you dumb yourself down that far that might be fun.

What possible argument could Neyer make to say Lance Berkman, he of .312 .420 .567, is the MVP? There just isn’t one. He’s picking him to be clever and different. He’s trying to be a snowflake. Berkman for MVP is like a hormonal woman telling me she doesn’t want something that she wants. I feel like I’m being challenged to figure out some sort of puzzle that I am missing but any way I go about thinking about it I come back to concluding “stupid” within .0000023 seconds.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 1:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see what you mean, I think

I too get the illusory and wrong “reasons” for picking Howard. Are you saying that you understand (and do not endorse) picking Howard, whereas you do not understand (and also do not endorse) picking Berkman? I would agree. Berkman had a great year and was in all ways very good and still inferior to Pujols. Howard had an OK year but had all those homers and ribbies. So it makes sense that journalists would be fooled into picking Howard, whereas it’s hard to see how they honestly would be fooled into picking Berkman, even though he’s actually more deserving.
In other words, if Neyer gets that Berkman > Howard, how the hell can he not get that Pujols > Berkman??? Answer; maybe he’s just being contrarian.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 1:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bingo

There’s simply no reason. Pujols was obviously a better hitter to the tune of about 25 runs, he won the Fielding Bible award (of which Neyer is a panel member). What did he really give Berkman that much credit for 11 extra stolen bases?

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 1:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Berkman had a higher WPA than

Pujols this year. I don’t like WPA as a statistic but I know it’s favored in some circles.

by azruavatar on Nov 17, 2008 2:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How is that possible?

Does it value Runs and SB’s at a higher rate? Those are the only things that Berkman has on Pujols. I know it’s position adjusted which would give Manny an advantage over both since he plays in the OF, but to me it’s ridiculous to say that Berkman had a better year.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2008 3:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WPA doesn't look at stats at all

WPA is a measure of each action taken during a game and how that action changed the % chance a team wins by the new situation. Each of the situations is boiled down to the basics, men on base, what bases, number of outs, what inning type of stuff. So how many times does a team down by 3 top 9th with 2 outs and 3 on win the game? Then someone hits a HR making it a 1 run lead, 2 outs top of the 9th 0 on, if the change in win chance is 50% then that player earns .500 WPA, if he strikes out he loses WPA equal to chance to win in the original situation.

For reference here is the WPA graph for the last WS game:


Link here
 Hamels earned .095 WPA for that game while Lidge earned .165, therefore Lidge was more important in the win then Hamels.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 3:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lidge,

more important than Hamels.?.? Then WPA is just plain IGNORANCE.

by chicagocardfan on Nov 17, 2008 8:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's not what it means...

…It means that Lidge was responsible for the things that had the greatest effect on Win Probability in that particular game.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 17, 2008 8:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That game he was more important in the end. Remember it was a rain shortened game

Hamels only lasted 5 innings, the other “starter” was the most important pitcher of the 3 in the end.

by StLHugo on Nov 18, 2008 8:29 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Berkman & WPA

The difference in their WPA’s is overtaken by the difference in games played. Albert’s WPA probably would have been a bit higher if not for the DL stint. Plus Berkman had a lot more “big games” (+.100 game score) than Pujols (43 vs. 34).

As far as Runs Scored & Stolen Bases, WPA does give credit for stealing bases. But it does a piss poor job of valuing non-SB baserunning on base hits. The infamous scamper from 2nd base against Colorado was a marvelous piece of baserunning by Albert, but Fangraphs chalked it up as +.233 WPA for Ankiel, as it was Ricky who grounded out to Qunitanilla & “drove in” Pujols, who got nothing for it. Unless the baserunner does something very separate (positive or negative) from the batting play, all of the credit/blame goes to the batter.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Nov 17, 2008 3:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In other words...

it’s a crap statistic for valuing overall performance on the field, but can be useful when looking at stretches of games or trying to prove how “clutch” someone is.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2008 3:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

about sums it up

WPA can be good and over a season I think it ways itself out nicely but it is an easily abused stat.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 3:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the argument though

We can concoct situations and corrections that show why Albert, on a rate basis, is more valuable but the MVP is about what a player actually did last year. I don’t agree with this argument but I think it’s far more valid than someone who is arguing for, say, Howard.

by azruavatar on Nov 17, 2008 3:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And though WPA is not something that necessarily measures an ability

and is a poor predictive stat, I think it might be one of the best ways of analyzing just what a player DID for you over the course of the season.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 17, 2008 3:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And not necessarily even then

Pujols blasting a home run in the first inning that puts a team up 3-0 and helps mean the game stays low leverage for the rest of the game doesn’t have as much WPA as a single with a guy on 2nd in the 9th inning. All well for clutch and all, but gimme the bomb to start the game so I don’t need to be in the game in the 9th.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 3:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, yes

But in that situation, you kind of do have to factor in the fact that the pitching was pretty spectacular to keep the game from getting close. Especially considering how pitching strategy changes when you have a big early lead.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 17, 2008 3:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well yeah

But point being even quantitatively evaluating the value of clutch is impossible when playing well in the first place removes the necessity for clutch at all.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 3:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't look it as clutch

so much as coming up big in big situaitons. If you were really trying to evaluate ‘clutch’ you would probably have to come up with an ‘expected wpa’ by enalyzing things like walk rates and hr rates, and then comparing to actual wpa.

Note that the really good players have high wpa’s, for the most part.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 17, 2008 3:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No I understand WPA

But obviously it ends up taking BaselineGood and adds ClutchFactor in a backwards way in so many words. Pujols’ BaselineGood was clearly better than Berkman’s by any measure and it’s the “clutch” that is mattering here. Thus the ambiguous value that “clutch” has comes into play.

Just cherry picking but if Berkman had been better than .203 .338 .328 in the 6th inning (I know, what the hell? Fun with small samples) the close and late stuff wouldn’t have been there. And likewise Pujols’ .438 .532 1.063 (that’s 1.063 slugging) in the 7th undoubtedly kept him from 9th inning heroics. A run in the 6th counts the same as a run in the 9th, valuing it differently doesn’t make sense to me.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 4:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WPA is supposedly based on past games

From how I understand it WPA is based on historical games played and how often a team won in certain situations. A team down by 1 in the 6th is more likely to win then one down by 1 in the 9th. It isn’t really adding “clutch” to the stat it is a very simple measurement of how “important” the moment was compared to historical examples. Hitting a grand slam in the 1st isn’t as big as in the 9th because while runs all count the same one situation gives the other team 9 innings to catch up while the other only gives them 1 (assuming away team).

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 4:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But what's the difference

If Player A hits a 3 run home run in the 1st and strikes out 3 more times, how is that ultimately different from a player who strikes out 3 times then hits a 3 run home run in the 9th? The net result is a 3 run homer and 3 Ks, who cares when it happened?

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 4:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When did the Ks happen?

Did his K in the 9th happen with a runner in scoring position down by 1?

Most fans will gloss over a K with 0 outs in the 1st yet yell about one with a game on the line in the 9th or extras. You can’t argue to me that a first inning out is more important then a 9th inning out (which would be silly to argue) and while I do understand that a 1st inning out could be argued to be the same weight as a 9th inning out I still don’t see it. When you make the first out of a game there are still 26 more chances to make something happen, when you make the 27th out of a game you have no more chances. Pressure, fatigue, etc. all play a part in making it harder to make something happen later in a game then in the start.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 4:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

stupid enter button

that’s why they’ll often use WPA/pLI to weight the leverage.

(Again, I don’t like this process. Merely being contrarian.)

by azruavatar on Nov 17, 2008 4:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am on the fence with WPA

but I like playing devil’s advocate. To me WPA is good and bad all rolled into one. It is a good quick look stat for a season long event but not so good for single games.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 4:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm getting out of the tiny text-box-squeezed-into-the side thing here

To STLHugo, the “pressure, fatigue etc” is balanced out just the same by saying the opposing pitcher is under pressure, “the hitter has gotten his looks in” and then we’re back to it being just as likely to happen.

Getting back on Pujols v. Berkman, I was hypothetical-ing that their total run production was the same and it very much was not last year. The fact that Berkman’s WPA was marginally higher because he was clutchier cannot possibly outweigh the fact that Pujols was a significantly better hitter period.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 4:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dang

I wanted to see how small it would get!

by spants on Nov 18, 2008 12:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WPA and the intentional walk...

I tried to post this earlier…but it apparently disappeared.

Does the fact that Pujols gets pitched around in high-leverage situations effect his WPA? I would have to think so. Berkman is nowhere near as fearsome as AP, and also has Lee behind him.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 17, 2008 4:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WPA doesn't care who the hitter is

just what came of. In the end those a walk does raise your chance to win, the question of how much depends on the situation it creates. The stat doesn’t care who is before or behind you.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 4:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yet another big limitation

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 4:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I realize this...

but does the fact that Pujols gets intentionally walked even with runners on 1st and 2nd while Berkman gets pitched to not affect this? Berkman hits a double driving in two runs while Pujols just advances the runners…WPA for Berkman could be +.6 or more while for Pujols it’s maybe +.05. This happens enough times and it makes Berkman look like the better hitter when the only difference is he was given the opportunity.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 17, 2008 6:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Berkman always made a more advantageous

play in those situations, than it’s possible. But he’s also being given the opportunity to do something negative (make an out) where Pujols is guaranteed a small, but positive bounce in his favor every time in your scenario.

by azruavatar on Nov 17, 2008 8:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But...

if he was in the same situation (where the team has a .1 chance of winning) five times and reached base in two of them once with a walk and once with a double. His WPA’s would be (something like):

walk + .05
2B + .6
double play – .1
groundout -.05
K – -.07
+4.3

Pujols walks five times and net +2.5

by cardzfanbub on Nov 17, 2008 8:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure

I’m not arguing it couldn’t happen. Unless you go through situation by situation, I think this is an attempt to rationalize away a difference in WPA that is significant (within the statistic; not necessarily in general).

by azruavatar on Nov 18, 2008 12:05 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FWIW

Pujols wasn’t walked intentionally this season with a man on first, or first and second, or with the bases loaded.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 18, 2008 8:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you think Neyer knows that?

Honest question. If that’s his rationale, it’s a lot more interesting. I knew that Berkman had an awesome WPA total this year, higher than Albert, etc. But I was assuming ESPN columnists wouldn’t care. Maybe I was wrong.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 3:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes he does

I guess I overstated how stupid it was, but it still is pretty bad.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 3:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rob Neyer wouldn't be the first ESPN guy that I would choose to rip on

it’s been a few years since I’ve read his column, but I was usually pretty happy with it.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 17, 2008 3:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually Gammons picked Pujols

Neyer picked Berkman. Gomez picked Manny. And Howard Bryant, whose name I don’t recognize, picked — get this — CC Sabathia.

Yes, Mr. Bryant, CC SHOULD win the MVP, considering he didn’t even win the Cy Young and considering he only played in 17 National League games.

by Ray Lankford on Nov 17, 2008 12:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone who picked Manny or CC should be fired. Today.

How can a player be the MVP of a league that he only played in for half, or, less than half, of a season? It’s utterly absurd. How do these people get hired and then maintain their jobs?

Mattybobo is absolutely correct. Berkman, Hanley, and Utley are all better MVP picks than Howard. I’m becoming increasingly angry about this. How can any sports journalist who gets paid every fifteen days to follow baseball not spend an hour twenty minutes researching stats and determine that Albert Pujols is head and shoulders above all other NL ballplayers for the entirety of the 2008 season? I need answers.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 17, 2008 1:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow that is awesome!

Mr. Bryant must be the biggest idiot in the world. it only took 17 games for CC to win the MVP according to him?! Wow I bet Bryant would have nominated him for the HOF if he was able to play in 30 games.

What a complete idiot!!!!! 17 games!!!! out of 162 that means he would win the MVP for playing in 10% of the games for the Brewers!

by thoran85 on Nov 17, 2008 1:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Journalists like Mr. Bryant

are why firejoemorgan.com was invented. (sadly, it is no longer with us) Mr. Bryant should be subjected to public ridicule for that pick, and ESPN should re-evaluate his position.

by Ray Lankford on Nov 17, 2008 1:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ha!

Just out of curiousity, I looked up Howard Bryant on ESPN so I could get some more of his insight. He also picked K-Rod for AL Cy Young,

by Ray Lankford on Nov 17, 2008 2:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice rant!

Not vitriolic, just righteously indignant. Again, we see an intentional framing of events to make a better story; even if Albert wins, even if he wins in a landslide, I’m guessing journalists have something to gain from making it seem close. It seems this is a common complaint of journalism in general, these days. Perhaps the difference is that there is much less outrage in the general populace at sports journalism’s lack of objectivity.
And thanks, guys, for informing me about the chat stuff, both above and below. I was really flabbergasted when I saw the article comparing Howard and Pujols, and that chat quote puts it into better perspective. At least he sort of tries to give a rationale, although I still think he is guilty of “tailoring the number” as he says, to support Howard’s case against Pujols.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 12:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+100

Definitely my dream job.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 17, 2008 3:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

rec'd

way to go yard, bgh!

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 17, 2008 8:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, that's the one.

And this is what Strauss said in his Sept. 24 chat:

—-

I’m not going to go into the 12-step process used by various people to determine their vote. It’s my belief that most voters tailor the numbers and their philosophy to fit their favorite guy. The same folks who insisted two years ago Ryan Howard didn’t deserve the award because his team didn’t win now ride the El Hombre bandwagon. Others who dismissed Barry Bonds’ percentages compared to Albert’s raw numbers in certain seasons now point to AP’s slugging and on-base percentages. Whatever.
I give weight to the success of a player’s team, but it doesn’t eliminate a player from a team failing to reach the postseason.
Ballots are due Sunday night, barring a Monday playoff. I honestly don’t know who I’m voting for. Albert is on the short list. I’m convinced he will finish no worse than 3rd in overall balloting. But I can see as many as seven players receiving first-place votes this season.
Howard is gaining momentum given the Phillies’ push in the NL East.

by DCGreg on Nov 17, 2008 12:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll never understand the philosophy

where a team’s performance impacts an individual award. It is truly idiotic in a sport like baseball where you can (in large part) isolate the contributions of the individual.

by azruavatar on Nov 17, 2008 12:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+some billions

That is pretty much the new-fangled-internets-sports-journalism creed of baseball player “value”.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 12:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

any one who covers the flubs should automatically be discredited

just sayin

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 17, 2008 3:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Busch 3 a "Pitcher's Park"?

Really? I’m not disputing the claim. It’s certainly NOT a “hitter’s park.” But if not a hitter’s park, does that mean Busch 3 must be a pitcher’s park? I thought the stadium was more to the middle than either way. What are the stats/research that you’re using for St. Louis having a pitcher’s park? Again – not to disagree, I’m just curious to see the numbers, is all.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

by palampe on Nov 17, 2008 10:00 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

According to espn park factors

Busch was the 4th toughest hitters park in the NL with a “Runs” park factor of .943.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 10:10 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More truthfully called an average park

99 Park Factor over the past 3 years; just baaaaaaaaaaaarely tilting to the pitchers.

by craig3410 on Nov 17, 2008 10:10 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just curious

whose numbers?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 10:12 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks

I always wonder how many years were in “multi”. Any idea why they don’t agree with espn’s numbers?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 10:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I'm remembering correctly

BBRef uses a slightly different equation than the calculation ESPN uses.

by craig3410 on Nov 17, 2008 11:09 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ESPN simple BR not so much

ESPN: PF = ((homeRS + homeRA)/(homeG)) / ((roadRS + roadRA)/(roadG))

BR: http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/parkadjust.shtml

The first step in the BR model is the same as the ESPN save for the simple change of not counting interleague games (An NL team should score more runs in an AL stadium then they do at home due to the DH assuming equal factors, thus it isn’t fair to compare runs scored in an NL park vs runs scored in an AL park). Then they do some alterations and such to even things out over innings and other factors. In the end you get a long equation, ESPN’s is very simple and easy for most fans to follow.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 4:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does BR

make an effort to adjust for type of hit and BBs the way espn does?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 4:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neither takes that into account

ESPNs formula only looks at runs scored and allowed on the road and at home, nothing fancy. BR looks into park offsets due to some wacky numbers I don’t fully understand from my ~15 minutes of looking at it.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 5:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So the espn park factors

for HR, 2B, 3B, H, BB are just pulled out of somebody’s backside?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 6:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you want a really in depth of park factors

I suggest reading this Natural effects on baseball

I want to do some figures just for Busch Stadium just haven’t yet

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 17, 2008 8:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok, I see what you mean now

I thought you were asking if the run scoring park factor differentiated between hits, instead it seems that you are asking if BR has a HR or 2B park factor as well. I have not seen anything beyond just run scoring on BR. Again though the ESPN one just takes Home Scored and Allowed averaged over home games and then away scored and allowed averaged over away games then divides the two averages. to give you the factor, I am sure you could do that with the BR stuff as well but I don’t know if anyone would want too.

by StLHugo on Nov 18, 2008 8:35 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't take this the wrong way

but I find that really hard to believe. There has to be a different formula for each of the categories they list otherwise they would just be a total fabrication. They must substitute the type of hit, or walk, into the same formula to compute those factors.

I couldn’t find any explanation, but it would be totally bogus to post a park factor for 2B, 3B, HR, etc. that was only based on runs.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 18, 2008 8:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you took what I said wrong

Their main park factor, the default sorting on their site, is based on runs scored. I am guessing that the formula for the “HR Park Factor” is basically the same (average of HRs hit vs allowed at home and away divided), the same goes for 2B, etc.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Nov 19, 2008 8:33 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Back in 2006

Pujols questioned why Howard got the MVP when the Phils didn’t even make the playoffs. So how’s he feel about his chances now that he’s on the other side?

by JShell73 on Nov 17, 2008 10:04 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd say something along the lines of:

“If a player has a worse statistical season than I do wins the award for a non-playoff team, that’s, um, CRAP. The shoe is on the other foot this time in that regard, except that my 2008 season is phenomenally better than his. My OPS+ this season is 65 points better than his, I play in a tougher hitters park, in a worse lineup, with a worse pitching staff. Hell, he isn’t even the most valuable player on his own team, how can he be the most valuable player in the National League?” — excerpt from Being Albert Pujols.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2008 10:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A fair enough question; it'll be interesting to see his reaction.

But I really don’t care what Albert thinks about the award, or who he thinks deserves it. Albert was simply better than Howard that year. Luckily the players don’t get to vote—Albert might not have voted for himself in ’08.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 10:52 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll betcha

in spite of his comments about it, he’ll still have no problem accepting the award now.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've got to believe that...

Nearly every BBWAA voter will have Pujols 1st or 2nd on the ballot. While Howard may get more 1st place votes (for whatever ridiculous reason), he will get several 6th-10th places votes, and maybe left off some ballots entirely. Pujols will win the 2008 MVP.

by southsidepat on Nov 17, 2008 10:18 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The difference between 2-10

is a lot less than the difference between 1st and 2nd. 14 points vs. 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, … 1

Usually, whoever gets the most 1st place votes wins.

BTW, according to Wikipedia, Cardinals are second in MVPs with 18 with Yankees at 22 – Come on Albert let’s get them!

by enoscountry on Nov 17, 2008 11:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right, but...

What I’m saying is that there could be some “right thinking” voters who put Howard at the bottom of their ballot or leave him off completely. If 10-12% of the voters have Howard 6th or lower, that could mean that Pujols could lose the first place vote 60/40 and still win the MVP (Assuming nearly all voters have Pujols in the top 2).

It’s impossible to say what is going through the minds of these clowns when voting, but I’m hoping there are just a few who looked past HR and RBI before casting their vote.

by southsidepat on Nov 17, 2008 12:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree Dan

Howard’s a good ballplayer, but if he wins I’m finished as well. We might as well have monkeys sling their feces at photos of the candidates and which ever one gets hit the most should be crowned MVP. (Okay that’s disgusting. I don’t advocate that)

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 11:09 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disgusting...

but mildly entertaining. Curious, did you choose monkeys based on the “characters” they represent in this metaphor – characters being the BBWAA writers – or is that a mere coincidence?

by cardzfanbub on Nov 17, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Monkeys at typewriters would be just as good.

“It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times??? You stupid monkey!”
Sorry, needed a Simpsons reference to being some levity to the proceedings.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 11:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I already imagine BBWAA voter conferences...

Warning, low-brow possibly NSFW monkey humor: …like this

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 11:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is there a list of how the voters voted?

or is it a secret ballot?

is there even a list of those who can vote out there somewhere?

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 17, 2008 11:54 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When

yes when, I’ll play optimist, Albert gets his MVP this year he’ll be the second Cardinal to have multiple MVPs along with Stan Musial (3)

Today “El Hombre” will be quite fitting.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 17, 2008 12:13 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But it'll be so fun to wage a bitter war of words if he loses!

Thanks for the perspective; perhaps I should spend more time hoping he’ll win (and being happy if he does) than expecting him to not win.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 12:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He should already be in that rarified class of Cardinal greats

But the baseball writers voted in ways only they could to job him out of the 2006 and 2007 MVPs. If they do it again this year, I may start a website outing these chuckleheads. Sullivan and Strauss will be nos. 1 and 2 and the most-wanted list, followed by Gomez and Howard Bryant.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 17, 2008 1:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mark Cuban will not be buying the Cubs

he may be on his way to ‘in the butt’ prison.

Insider Trading charges from 2004 for a website called mama.com.

Ouch.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 17, 2008 12:36 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1117081cuban1.html

Though an “upset and angry” Cuban reportedly told the unnamed CEO, “Well, now I’m screwed. I can’t sell,” the SEC alleges that he, in fact, moved quickly to unload his Mamma.com shares. Within hours of learning of the stock offering, Cuban allegedly directed his broker to “sell what you can tonight and just get me out the next day.” The SEC charges that by “selling his Mamma.com shares prior to the public announcement” of the stock offering, “Cuban avoided losses in excess of $750,000.”

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 2:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Civil case

The case against Cuban is for civil penalties. There are no criminal charges being sought at present.

by holden on Nov 17, 2008 2:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And even if there were

he’d be going to federal prison, which is really easy and rarely violent.

by spants on Nov 18, 2008 12:27 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Are there conjugal visits?"

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 18, 2008 12:32 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As someone who is family with someone that has worked their entire

career in federal prison, you could not be more wrong.

Unless of course you were joking.

This is starting out like the Stewart case. Civil suit, which will be followed by criminal charges…specifically if they can catch Cuban in a lie in the civil case.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 18, 2008 12:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CUBAN....insider trading charges...

First the let Kerry Wood go….and Now no Cuban for sure……it’s a tough week for the Cub fan…LOL

by Timbo02 on Nov 17, 2008 12:37 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I refuse to believe Cuban would be as stupid as what they are charging him with

There’s simply no way. That’d be the dumbest case of insider trading in history, I can’t possibly fathom a man as smart as Cuban would do that and a man as rich as Cuban to save 750k.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 12:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hard to believe

Yeah, that makes you scratch your head. He seems like a smart guy. Hard to imagine he would risk it all (and his net worth right now is roughly 2.3 bill) on a “piddly” stock that saved him 750k in losses.

Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

by paposse on Nov 17, 2008 1:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Has CNN called the votes yet?

Just wondering. Figured Wolf Blitzer is out there somewhere with an itchy projection finger.

by paposse on Nov 17, 2008 1:37 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And a touchscreen map that really isn't that cool

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 1:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe some pretty lame holographic interviews.

With 0% of divisions reporting, we are projecting the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim will defeat the Milwaukee Brewers in the 2009 World Series.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 1:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey those holographs

we’re pretty cool. In a cheesy sci-fi porn movie kind of way.

Won’t be long until I’m able to watch a Pujols AB with my iPhoneHolograph.

by paposse on Nov 17, 2008 1:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dammit....

f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5

by craig3410 on Nov 17, 2008 2:00 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm

Are you mad at browser refreshing or do you know something we don’t?

by paposse on Nov 17, 2008 2:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if that is accurate...

i would LOVE to know what jackass voted albert 7th…are you kidding me?

by LukeMP1186 on Nov 17, 2008 2:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks for the link

but, man, that site hurt my eyes. I’m happy for Albert, but pretty hard to believe Chase Utley didn’t make the top ten.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 17, 2008 2:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PUJOLS NL MVP!!

thank the lord

7 rec comment - November 12, 2008

by emrfg8 on Nov 17, 2008 2:02 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MLB

Shows Pujos!

Damn, you people type fast.

by paposse on Nov 17, 2008 2:03 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MVPu! MVPu!

defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.

by effin fisk on Nov 17, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

THANK GOODESS!!!

....my quick smells like french toast...

by mstreeter06 on Nov 17, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank God

This is a big relief…

Congrats, Albert/Cards fans.

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks WC

And congrats to you, too, as I think all concerned would rather have the trophy you’ve got in Philly….

by random on Nov 17, 2008 5:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Albert, when reached for comment

“You know, mang, first I just want to thank Jesus Christ My Lord and Savior for giving me this opportunity, mang. Mama going to be making some good cookin’ tonight.”

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 17, 2008 2:05 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

D's pork chops are delicious

i highly recommend them to everyone

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 17, 2008 3:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow news travel fast!

wohoo baseball channel announced Pujols the winner!!! Congrats, compadre. Latinos, we are dominating this game :D

Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!

by Paulspike on Nov 17, 2008 2:05 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is there anywhere..

That shows the voting tally? Like who got the 1st place votes, 2nd place votes etc.?

by lunchboxbomb on Nov 17, 2008 2:07 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as posted above

Check this out.

defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.

by effin fisk on Nov 17, 2008 2:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

holy crap i'm blind!

damn WTF made that

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 17, 2008 3:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

98

It also reminds me that Big Mac did not get the 98 MVP despite being the world favorite slugger that season.

by paposse on Nov 17, 2008 2:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ludwick with seven top 10 votes

Attaboy, Von Ludwig

defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.

by effin fisk on Nov 17, 2008 2:07 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All hail the King!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:08 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!!

MVP…MVP….MVP…MVP…MVP!!!!!!!!!!!

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 17, 2008 2:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

winner winner chicken dinner!

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Nov 17, 2008 2:10 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Congratulations El Hombre

Justice is served; the BBWAA MVP award still means something, for now.

by iwannarock24 on Nov 17, 2008 2:10 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who the hell...

voted Albert 7th?!? What a joke…

by nzach54 on Nov 17, 2008 2:13 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just noticed that myself

Whoever ranked Pujols 7th in MVP voting has about as much business casting a ballot as my pet turtle.

by BTown Birds fan on Nov 17, 2008 2:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They should be fired immediately

Like no joke, they should lose their job over that vote. Not out of the BBWAA voting, they should lose their job about writing for sports.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 2:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they probably coded that page

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 17, 2008 2:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They confused Albert and Ludwick

For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!

by miniboscorino on Nov 17, 2008 4:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Crabman is that you?

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 17, 2008 5:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chase Utley

Finished 15th? Hoo lawdy. Whatever faith in the BBWAA that was restored for giving the award to Albert is effectively canceled out by Albert receiving a 7th place vote and by Chase Utley not even being in the top 10. :/

by lunchboxbomb on Nov 17, 2008 2:16 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, it’s kinda nauseating.

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 2:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would have put Utley somewhere behind Pujols, Chipper, and Berkman, I think. I actually kind of like Lidge as team MVP, too (his WPA was ridiculous).

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 2:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Utley

produced a TON for a 2B… so I think I’d have to give him 2nd place.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 17, 2008 2:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And by some metrics he was the best defensive player, at any position, in MLB in 2008.

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 2:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, hey last time he won the MVP

The Cardinals won the World Series the following year…

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:18 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the following year

Albert was better than when he won. Looks like 2009 will be awesome!

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 2:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The best part about him winning

ESPN actually has to show Cardinals highlights.

For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!

by miniboscorino on Nov 17, 2008 4:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

18 First Place votes for APu

10 second place….Howard received 10 first place votes and Brad Lidge got the last two for first.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

18 of 30

would be better if we made the playoff

by J.Wu on Nov 17, 2008 2:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whoops...

Howard with 12 first place votes, not 10

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are 32 first place votes

Albert:18
Howard: 12
Lidge: 2

I just can’t type…..

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've said it 20 times

But I wonder if Victorino doesn’t throw out Gregor Blanco and he isn’t perfect if Lidge gets even a single top-10 MVP vote.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 17, 2008 2:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It looks like

Someone left Howard off their ballot entirely.

by lunchboxbomb on Nov 17, 2008 2:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You beat me to it...

1st – 12
2 – 10
3 – 6
5 – 1
6 – 1
7 – 2
10 – 1
= 31 total votes. Who was it, and when can shake his/her hand? I’d also like to meet the voter who gave him the 10th place vote. After that I’d like to meet the voters that put AP 3rd, 4th and 7th in a dark alley.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 17, 2008 2:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No kidding.

There are still a lot of double-you-tee-effs in the voting, even if the best Mang won.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 2:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Congrats Mang!

The greatest

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 17, 2008 2:33 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait...none of this makes sense!!!

Hank Aaron Award=Best offensive player in the league=most valuable player to his team=MVP

2008 Hank Aaron Award Winner=Aramis Ramirez=10th Most Valuable Player in the league

What is this madness!?!?!?!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 17, 2008 2:38 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ahhh web voting!

Chicago style.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 17, 2008 2:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Tradition Continues!!!


5 NL MVPs Between the two best players in Cardinals history!

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 17, 2008 2:41 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

6 NL MVPs next year!

Pujols will tie Musial for most MVPs in the Cardinals organization

by J.Wu on Nov 17, 2008 2:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Albert is so good

He wins the MVP multiple times despite the baseball writers. Now that’s powah!

Congratulations El Hombre.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 17, 2008 2:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OT: Affeldt to the Giants

Guess winning isn’t a priority to everyone.

Affeldt signs 2 year deal with Giants

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 17, 2008 2:51 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that is exaclty who i had him going to in yesterdays post

or at least will have there when i get around to doing it…

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby

by nomar34 on Nov 17, 2008 2:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As of mid-day yesterday

i was the only one picked him going anywhere other than to the Cards. Don’t remember where, but I don’t think it was the Giants. I would like to take this time to change my vote, however.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 17, 2008 2:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have that card, Scoot.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Nov 17, 2008 3:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do too

Actually, I may have a couple copies of it. Found the pic online today. Love the sideburns and fro

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 17, 2008 3:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vote for a baseball blogger.

Dave Cameron was nominated for a $10,000 scholarship based on the USSM post he wrote about Kind Felix’s pitch selection. It’s something of a popularity contest and he was in the lead for a good while but as of this weekend has fallen into second place. It literally takes 3 mouse clicks (10 seconds?) to vote for someone who is consistently offering insights about the Mariners and baseball in general at Fangraphs.

I’d encourage anyone who hasn’t yet to take the time to vote for Dave.

by azruavatar on Nov 17, 2008 3:00 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I support this initiative.

Bloggers getting money? Using the slippery slope line of reasoning, I can only assume we will be seeing lboros on Baseball Tonight soon.

by mojowo11 on Nov 17, 2008 3:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ben Popkin from Consumerist

is now a regular guest on MSNBC, so there is precident for bloggers making it to TV shows even if it is just guests.

by StLHugo on Nov 17, 2008 3:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nate Silver got a lot of attention recently

What with FiveThirtyEight being insanely accurate and stuff. And he did PECOTA, so that’s pretty sweet.

by mojowo11 on Nov 17, 2008 3:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I voted

Very easy, just a couple clicks like azru says, and the vote is extremely close.

Get out there and make your voice heard!!!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 17, 2008 3:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i've voted for dave

but this is a stupid way to decide as to who gets a scholarship. Dave probably deserves to win, but 10K shouldn’t be decided by who can drum up the most internet votes. If that Daily Kos guy wins, well…ergh.

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Nov 17, 2008 3:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ballot issues

I noticed that the BBWAA made a pretty big error in their voting for National League Most Valuable Ramirez. First of all Manny is at the top of the Ramirezes when he played about a third of the season in the NL. Second, poor Hanley is right behind Aramis. Not cool guys.

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 3:13 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

vindication, oh how sweet you taste

congrats Mang. and thank you Gob for letting him be a Cardinal. may he never leave us

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 17, 2008 3:16 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His stats aren't a trick

they’re an illuuuuusion.

defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.

by effin fisk on Nov 17, 2008 3:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Que "The Final Countdown" by Europe.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 17, 2008 3:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Damn, beat me to it.

Watch out for loose seals, everybody.
Who is this “Hermano” guy anyway?

by mattybobo on Nov 17, 2008 3:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does he have a (Ryan) Franklin hand puppet?

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Nov 17, 2008 3:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who is this little friend?

My name is Judge.

Whose name is Judge?

My name is.

That’s a silly name.

Judge. My name.

Yes, I am judging your name. It am silly.

Is.

Oh, now you’re correcting my grammar?

defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.

by effin fisk on Nov 17, 2008 4:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At Least

The BBWAA can’t say “I’ve made a terrible mistake.”

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Nov 17, 2008 4:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thank the lord

congrats, mang!

this site might’ve exploded had howard won.

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 17, 2008 3:19 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what I don't get

is how Ryan Braun finished 3rd in MVP voting

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 17, 2008 3:20 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I found that amusing, too

Ludwick was better than Braun in just about every conceivable way, and finished 16th (!) in balloting.

But then there’s that whole playoff thing…but, wait, Albert got first in balloting…

Goddamnit, this system sucks.

by mojowo11 on Nov 17, 2008 3:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mark Worell

lead the majors in slugging and OPS, maybe he should switch from being a pitcher

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 17, 2008 3:25 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

GS

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Nov 17, 2008 3:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I stand corrected.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Nov 17, 2008 3:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was the 3rd most memorable moment of the year.

2nd: Mather hitting his home run a few innings later

1st: Kennedy hitting the double off Pappy.

and guess what, the pen blew up in both those games.

For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!

by miniboscorino on Nov 17, 2008 4:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs