Adam Kennedy is better than Orlando Hudson

by chuckb on Nov 15, 2008 7:00 AM EST in News Comment 56 comments

or, at least, he was last year.

I’m going to respectfully disagree w/ my esteemed colleague who yesterday, stated that he found Orlando Hudson the "most interesting" of the middle infield options. I find him the scariest, not b/c he’s a bad player – he most certainly is not. What I find scary is the affection that so many Cards’ fans and so many in the media seem to have for him.

Stories are legion on the internet about the season Adam Kennedy had defensively last year. Hudson is assumed to be the best, or one of the best, defensive 2b in baseball, but last year Kennedy outplayed him at the keystone. To be sure, Kennedy is not good defensively but, as you’ll see below, Kennedy’s defense last year was good enough to outweigh the difference between the two players’ offense.

First of all, when looking at +/-, it’s clear that the less-heralded Kennedy was superior defensively.

	+/-	Innings
Kennedy	+19	635.2
Hudson	-4	904.2

The gap is 23 plays but you’d have to believe that if Kennedy had played as frequently as Hudson, the gap would have been considerably wider. Indeed, had Kennedy played the same number of innings as Hudson and if his defense had been at the same level over the additional 170 or so innings, Kennedy would have been a +27 – a 31 play difference between the two players. That’s wider than the gap between Pujols and Ryan Howard at a more difficult defensive position. It’s substantial.

PMR comes to a similar conclusion. According to PMR, Kennedy was more than 7 outs per 1000 plays better than Hudson. If Kennedy had been on the field as often as Hudson last year, Kennedy would have been nearly 19 plays better than Hudson just by PMR.

Beyond the boxscore took the PMR numbers and figured out the difference in the number of runs prevented for all second baseman. Dan Turkenkopf determined that, again, Kennedy was the best defensive 2B in baseball and that he would have been a full 23 runs better than Hudson had they both played full seasons. That’s about 2.5 wins better than Hudson defensively.

Ok, so what about the offensive difference? I hasten to remind everyone, however, that Hudson is particularly known for his defense. He’s a fine offensive player but he’s played in some pretty darned good offensive environments as well. Moving to Busch isn’t going to improve his offensive numbers, in all likelihood. Let’s go to Justin Inaz’s spreadsheet, which encompasses offense, defense, as well as a positional adjustment reflecting the difficulty of playing the keystone.

	RAR	Fielding	Pos. Adj.	Total Value
Kennedy	1.9	15.7	0.7	18.2
Hudson	16.9	-5.6	1.6	12.9

Here we see that Kennedy, in 169 fewer innings and 90 fewer PAs, was more than half a win better than Hudson last season. Yesterday, Dan stated that perhaps Hudson’s poor defensive season was "fluky", and he might be right. Was he really more than half a win BELOW AVERAGE defensively last year? Maybe not but Justin’s defensive numbers are based on THT’s RZR which had Hudson last in the NL among regular second-sackers. Again, this is a range statistic. Even if it’s off some, Hudson’s range appears to have declined considerably.

We should also consider the following:

Hudson turns 31 in less than a month
Hudson has finished each of the last 2 seasons on the D.L.
Only twice has Hudson played more than 140 games in a season – in his first full season (age 25) and in his age 28 season
He’s had only 3 of his 6 seasons w/ an OPS+ greater than 100. All were played w/ 81 games in one of the best hitters’ parks in baseball and another 10 or so games/season in Coors Field
Lots of teams could be in the market for second basemen this offseason
Hudson is probably considered to be the premier second-sacker on the market

Is there any doubt that Hudson will likely command a contract in the neighborhood of 3 years and $25 M or so? This would be for his age 31, 32, and 33 seasons. Do I need to point out that middle infielders who lack power and whose defense is primarily based on their range do not tend to age well?

Now, I’m not saying that Kennedy will be better than Hudson next year, necessarily, or even over the next 3 years. Let’s face it, had Kennedy played as often as Hudson last year, the defensive gap would have widened but the offensive gap would have widened as well – and possibly more than the defensive gap since it would have meant Kennedy getting a disproportionate share of those extra PAs vs. lefties (.270/.299/.297 splits in ’08). However, before we jettison Kennedy and replace him w/ Orlando Hudson, shouldn’t we ask the very legitimate question: Which contract is better – Kennedy’s 1 year/$4.5 M contract or Hudson’s 3 year/$25 M contract? I’m ok w/ the notion of replacing Kennedy next season but I’m not sure I see the logic in replacing him JUST to replace him. If it’s a bad contract, in that he’s not worth the money he’s getting – and he appears to be worth the $4.5 M, btw, -- why would we turn around and make a bigger mistake by paying MORE for someone who may only be slightly better than the guy we’re tossing aside?

It is true that Kennedy is nearly 2 years older than Hudson so I’m ok w/ trying to find someone who can provide more offense than Kennedy provides. But if Kennedy saves 15 to 20 runs per year defensively, does it make sense to pay big money for someone to gain us 15 to 20 runs per year offensively? Last I checked, 20 = 20. It’s 20 runs above average – slightly more than 2 wins above average either way.

So I guess I’m ok w/ going w/ Kennedy, or getting rid of Kennedy and replacing him w/ Miles and Lopez on 1 year deals. I’m ok w/ trying out Hoffpauir, maybe in a platoon of sorts w/ one of the others. BTW, Felipe, Dan was right – get real. I know your total value was 18.5 as a Card but it was -10 as a Nat. That’s 8.5 for the season – the same as Ryan Langerhans and less than Craig Counsell. If one year w/ the Cards isn’t good enough, get a multi-year deal from someone else. I wonder if he wasn’t a little more motivated as a Card w/ free agency fast approaching. If he gets a long-term deal, does he lose his motivation?

Anyway, a long-term deal w/ Hudson strikes me as a really bad idea considering that he’s only marginally better than what we currently have. Rather than opening the bank for him, I’d rather keep Kennedy and open it for Furcal or, better yet, find a way to trade for a young SS, go w/ Kennedy, and sign Randy Johnson.

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re: Lopez – it’s probably quite a few things. F.A. fast approaching, new environment, et. all. In this market someone will probably take a flier on him multiyear. As long as it’s not us, I’m fine.

Kennedy isn’t going to be yelling to get traded if he’s in a position where his playing time improves. Even if it’s not wise to trade him, I don’t see him making too much of a fuss next year going into his F.A. So as long as he’s not going to be a drama queen, I’m glad to have him around and figure out 2b later.

Can’t agree on getting in on the Furcal sweepstakes. They looked as if it was going to be reasonable a while back, but the rumored offers he’s been getting is seriously out of control. I have a hard time believing he could be worth 30m/3 let alone 60m/4 and that 60m/4 will really, really suck if it is backloaded. Considering the market, it’s sure to be.

We’ve got to look at cost controlled SS that are blocked, or have little service time. Now’s the time to set a foundation at SS instead of being in ’08 all over again.

We should be on Randy quick before the CC’s, Lowes et all get dealt. Give him a year + an option, Pin and Glaus are gone next year, if we need the option we can afford it. he’s too damn good to overlook, and frankly i think he’ll be quite enjoyable to watch under some birds on the bat.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 15, 2008 8:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

and above all else

clearly we shouldn’t do a salary dump on Kennedy, the more and more ya look at it, the 4m is within market value when you consider it’s just one more year. If we get a 2b or have an option to get rid of him because the market looks to be needing a few 2b’ers, we should get something in return. Something of at least comparable value.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 15, 2008 8:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

here's just one

of a gazillion different scenarios, jm the gm could use at 2b.
flip kennedy for a lhp of near equal salary, who has been made available by his club (schoeneweis as an example). reclaiming 0.4 mil back to the funds available today. not as a mutual dump, but shifting funds to address a need.
the 0.4 mil difference in their 09 salaries, pays for a minimum salaried u.i. (ryan, barden, greene or hoffpauir), behind miles as the current starter at 2b.

nontender miles in his current arb3 offseason, reclaims an estimated 2.0 mil (lboros roster matrix). use the 2 mil from miles against the 8 mil. average, chuckb has hudson signing at (multi-year).
hudson uses 6 mil in 09, they same amount we currently have invested in kennedy (4.0) and miles (2.0 arb3 est.). 8 mil per the remaining years.

ARI can’t afford to offer hudson arb this offseason, due to their budget restraints. a hudson signing after ari declines arb, loses no pick. there is the risk an org who can afford to lose their pick, will sign him before dec 1. stl should wait and save the pick, if interested.

by ball in play on Nov 15, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I beg to differ...

AZ can afford to offer arbitration, cause there’s no way Hudson accepts. I think there’s a good possibility that the team that gives Hudson the 3/$25 deal will hate it more than we did the 3/$12? deal we gave Kennedy. He played in baseball’s best hitters park this year and was just above average. Shift him to Busch III that plays a little below average, and that’s exactly what you’ll get below average offensively and (according to last year) defensively.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ok to differ :)

ari can’t afford that bluff. they supposedly have 3 mil available and need a 2b, sp and bullpen help? they’d be right back in the leagues office asking for another payroll loan if hudson accepted :)
hudson accepts the bluff and ari is -5.0 mil and scrambling to sell off pieces to a league that knows they’re vulnerable, without addressing their current needs.
i wouldn’t, they might.

as far as on field production……there’s a very good reason hudson is currently a “type a” and kennedy is a no compensation.

2, 3b, ss

type a……..#8 hudson 79.911…….#9 glaus 79.670
no compensation…….#41 miles 55.134…..#43 lopez 52.232…..#46 eckstein 50.00……#56 c. izturis 38.462…..#63 kennedy 34.821

not saying these rankings are the best, but the owners are agreed to go with them, as their compensation for a player lost.

by ball in play on Nov 15, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course if Hudson accepts they could easily...

trade him. He’d probably get that $8 mil we’ve been talking about, and AZ could swap him for a decent prospect. How many teams out there would be interested in Hudson on a 1/$8mil deal? He’d be a type A again most likely after 2009, so you can afford to give up a decent prospect for him. Let’s say this happens what would the Cards be willing to give up…Kennedy plus (one of) Schu, Boggs, Mort, Duncan, Worrell? Unless there’s something in the CBA that says you can’t trade players after agreeing to arb…I don’t see the risk.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i hope we don't use that approach.

spending budget $ on a player you know you can’t afford, who you must turn around and trade and try to get equal value in return for. all to save two picks, a cash strapped org will probably go underslot with. does ari want those picks?
they might……… :)

by ball in play on Nov 15, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is "we"...

Arizona? Or are you saying you don’t like the approach? From a business standpoint I think it makes sense. It’s a win-win unless somehow Hudson’s wrist isn’t healing and he becomes untradeable. You offer arb, and he either accepts and gets a tradeable 1 year market rate contract that you can spin for “free” major leaguer (Skip or the like) or he declines and you get the extra picks.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think we've all seen the train coming in our hotstove dreams:

it’s very possible that we keep Kennedy and (my god hopefully) simply get a new shortstop. A good one, even!

by sdrone on Nov 15, 2008 8:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

re: title

not a chance.
you are comparing an everyday starter to a player being hidden on the bench.
compare the 08 hudson as a starter, to the 07 kennedy as a starter. not a chance.

by ball in play on Nov 15, 2008 8:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

you nailed it, Chuckb

I couldn’t agree more. Furcal is the only middle infielder I would consider giving more than two years on a contract (and even he scares me with his history of back problems). There isn’t a middle infielder out there that is worth losing a first round pick for either, imho. I’d be surprised if Floppy can get a multiyear deal (he was after all released by the Nats) but if he can it better be somewhere else.

I’d like to think if the Peavy trade with the Braves is dead maybe Mo can pry Escobar loose from the Braves although that might be wishful thinking on my part. Anyway, obtaining a young SS is more important than 2B. I can live with the internal options there if a SS upgrade is made.

I was encouraged in reading Goold’s article this morning that Mo is targeting lefty relievers first this off season. I think I have seen Affeldt’s name on the wish list of like 10 teams so he needs to go hard after Affeldt and Ohman.

The idea of Randy Johnson pitching for the Cards interests me a lot (on a one year deal). He is going to be super motivated to get his 300th win and try to go out on a winning team. It would also be nice to have a lefty in the starting rotation.

by nmstar on Nov 15, 2008 9:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The nice thing about Affeldt was that underrated

Now everyone in town wants a piece of him. So I don’t know how much he is under valued anymore. I am happy though they are ‘aggressively’ targeting relievers. Above all I want to go into 2009 with a shut down bullpen.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 15, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A pre-condition for a Hudson contract

should be a VERY careful physical. I started to use “Beware of one-year statistics” as the title for this, under the assumption that if you go back before 2008, Hudson’s defensive performance would be clearly better than AK’s. Indeed, it is true that over the course of their respective careers, Hudson has been much the better defender. However, his defense was also subpar (not just relative to AK, but compared to league average) in 2007, having taken a most dramatic downturn compared to his stellar 2006 by at least some metrics (BP disagrees). That leads to the question as to whether there’s something wrong with him beyond the wrist.

I still think Hudson is a fairly good bet to be a significant upgrade on AK going forward. However, between this distressing trend and your correct assertion that AK is a much underrated defender, I don’t think it’s a sure thing. Is “a fairly good bet” worth spending big-time free-agent money, plus a draft choice, on? Not to me it’s not, although I’d be less horrified by it than by a long-term contract to Floppy.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 15, 2008 9:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I agree....but

…only b/c of the age and injury issues you bring up.

Isn’t it possible that your analysis showing Hudson’s inferiority to Kennedy defensively is more reflective of the inability of sabermetricians to MEASURE defense accurately. It seems the whole title/idea of your post is who counter-intuitive AK being better than Hudson. Maybe it’s counter-intuitive because its true. Not every aspect of baseball is capturable and mesaurable by statistical methods. Even the advocates of sabermetrics admit more work must be done to get accurate statistical understandings of defense.

by cardsfaninmass on Nov 15, 2008 9:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Nice analysis

I have long been pretty vocal about Hudson being overrated. Even if you admit to some uncertainty regarding defensive metrics, there is a ton on uncertainty about Hudson’s offense. If you adjust for the home park factors his whole offensive career he is really pretty pedestrian. Most of us know about Chase Field, but the Rogers Centre in Toronto was 4th, 7th, and 10th in MLB for hitters during the three years he played there. Just say no.

Regarding Felipe Lopez: JUST SCREAM NO! I was checking out my brother-in-law’s copy of the Bill James Handbook last night and discovered that Felipe Lopez has the distinction of being one of the six worst defenders in MLB over the last three years at not one, but two different positions. Yes, he was one of the worst at both SS and 2B – that is hard to do. His cumulate +/- over the last three years was -54 and that doesn’t even count his OF adventrures. Unless he wants to fight it out with Miles for bench player money and opportunity there is no way this guy should come back. Come on, MO listen to your numbers guys!

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 15, 2008 10:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Whats the most the Cards have paid for a 2b?

Cause I just dont see them setting aside 8-9mil/yr for 2b right now. My prefs at this point (and they may change the more I read here) would be for them to trade for escobar w/out using Ludwick if possible. But I realize they’re looking for sp’s. To me he seems like the best possible immediated upgrade beside quality lhrp. Plus, if you get E it really takes pressur off whatever happens at 2b. Since I’m throwing in my $.02, I wouldn’t mind seeing them give kennedy his trade but only for reasonable return (I dont think they should have to pay) and then signing Edgar to play 2nd. I think he could really resurect himself here but I wouldn’t bet too large on it. Say 2yrs 9 mil w/ club opt 3rd yr for 7. Of course that’s also assuming he could make the switch to the keystone but it wouldn’t be the first time i’ve heard it suggested. My question is what do some of you think would be a reasonable package to trade for Escobar?

by Walking Underwear on Nov 15, 2008 10:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don't see how we get...

Escobar without giving up Ludwick or Rasmus. Unless there willing to take quantity over quality (doubt it). Yunel is a good hitter and a great defensive player at the most important position on the field (‘cept maybe catcher). He’s also pre-arb (maybe even next year, too). Truthfully I would do Ludwick straight up , and not look back. Mostly because I think Mather will be nearly as good a hitter as Ludwick with perhaps less SLG but more OBP w/ less K’s and he’s not arb eligible till 2011 – read MUCH cheaper. If a Mather, Boggs and some other fill in gets it I’d be willing to go that way, too.

How come nobody talks about Lillebridge anymore? Isn’t he the heir apparent if the Bravos trade Escobar?

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Statistics are fine, but

statistics don’t tell the entire story. I am not a Hudson advocate but I am an advocate for upgrading at SS and 2B. The bottom line is that this team cannot win unless they find a way to significantly upgrade in those two positions. The other positions are fine assuming that they keep Ankiel, Ludwick and Rasmus.

The line-up is fine 1-6 but 7,8 and 9 were and will be backbreakers. There was no punch in these spots, and because of Pujols batting 3rd the problem is exaggerated. Your 9th place hitter is actually your leadoff man after the first at bat and that impacts the effectivenss of Pujols who becomes your clean-up hitter the second time around.

This team can win with the addition of a very good SS and 2B. They probably cannot trade for both spots and therefore they have got to try to sign one FA and try to trade for the other (my opinion). If Hudson is no better than Adam Kennedy then they had better go hard after Furcal because a equal to Adam Kennedy is not going to be enough.

by Warcard on Nov 15, 2008 10:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

What did you just type that statistics couldn't tell us?

by azruavatar on Nov 15, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Keystone

It’s interesting to me that folks are ragging so heavily on the two-baggers here. I’ll admit that I’ve bemoaned Adam Kennedy on many, many times. But, there was a reason that TLR was giving him the share of PAs over the final one-third of the season. He played pretty well. His exquisite defensive season has been well-documented here. And his offensive output bumped up to acceptable for the season as a whole.

Taken in concert with his second base bretheren, the offensive output of the Cardinal second base corps was pretty good. Their collective OPS was good for 15th in MLB, or, in the middle of the pack, at .754. This was dragged down by a lagging SLG % of of .398 (due largely to a mere 7 homers from those batting as second basemen). But, their BA and OBP were very good. Cardinal second basemen hit .312 for the 2008. Yes, you read that correctly. That batting average is second in all of MLB for second basemen. Our second base OBP was .356, which was eighth in all of baseball. Could we stand more pop? Absolutely. But, second base was anything but an offensive liability for the 2008 St. Louis Cardinals.

There is a reason that statistics have been found on the back of baseball cards for decades. They provide a uniform and objective way for evaluating a player’s performance for a season or career. For the 2008 season, the Cardinal second basemen carried their weight.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 15, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Escobar trade

Walking Underwear – I think the Renteria at 2B is worth exploring and Escobar at SS is also a worthy idea. The problem for trading for Escobar as I see it is that you are having to give up to much if it includes Ludwick. I don’t even like the idea of giving up Ankiel and I doubt that the Braves would even bite at an Ankiel trade. But if they did then that may be worth thinking about..

Ludwick on the other hand is too much. You just don’t trade a silver slugger RF’der for a prospect. Ludwick was OK in the Holiday trade because you were getting a slight upgrade in Holliday and that made the line-up stronger. Moving Ludwick for Escobar weakens the line-up unless you have an additional move to replace the 37 HR’s.

by Warcard on Nov 15, 2008 10:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

yes I agree

thats why I wrote “w/out using Ludwick”. I was more specifically wondering which pitching prospects are tradeable for escobar. How about Boggs, Mortenson, Schu? Or Boggs, Ank, Dunc? I mean the team does have a lot of tradeable talent when you think about it. Mather, Barton, Schu, Jay, Anderson, the list goes on. But I’m no good at appraising the value of pitching prospects.

by Walking Underwear on Nov 15, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good stuff

I’d be curious to know how atypical their 2008 seasons were for each player….is there a quick way to show the trend for each from the past 4 seasons (or so)?

Incidentally, there’s a confusing typo in Paragraph 2 – you say defensively, when I think you mean offensively.

by siddfynch on Nov 15, 2008 10:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I thought that too (about the typo)

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 15, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The "kicker" in all this speculation...

…is that TLR (likely) doesn’t want Kennedy as his everyday 2B. After all, that’s why AK was “buried” on the bench last season.

Trade for a SS, and look within (Barden, Hoffpauir, Ryan) for an answer at 2B. Barden’s pretty effectively “blocked” at 3B by Glaus, Freese, and the Walrus (Goo Goo G’Joob!), aqnd played both SS and 2B pretty effectively for the Olympic team.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 15, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hey, you know who could play 2B and leadoff?

David Eckstein.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 15, 2008 12:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Personally I would love it!

Not sure if there’s still hard feelings there, but Eckstein is still a favorite of mine. It was hard watching him as a butcher at SS, but he’s a good fit at second base…not to mention all those jerseys collecting dust in everybody’s closets.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What the hell. Bring back Mighty Mouse for 2b...

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 15, 2008 1:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well since the Braves are out of the Peavy 'stakes

What about packaging up for Peavy and Greene for Ludwick and Kennedy +. Net is $17 million. Leaving 13 for LHR and 2B. 4 to LHR and 9 to Edgar Renteria?

by rlgosnell on Nov 15, 2008 2:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Get Uggla

If the cards are going to replace Kennedy, they should make an all out effort to trade for Dan Uggla from the Marlins. The Marlins are making a big deal out of going back to their winning philosophy of speed, defense and pitching. I suggest Skip, Barton and Brian Anderson for Uggla. We might possibly have to add a pitcher ala Boggs or another minor leaguer. Though we would lose on defense, we would add tremendous power to hit behind Albert. Then spend our money on pitching and bring back Renteria. Just an old hippie’s opinion.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Nov 15, 2008 2:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It's a thought...

but the Marlins are on record saying they won’t move Uggla this year. Skip, Barton and Anderson (especially plus Boggs) seems like a bit much for a guy who’s gonna start getting expensive, but that may be what it would take.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

id love to have the guy

especially if we can sign someone like a Furcal (which will probably be another pipe dream).

I know uggla isnt the best hitter out there but he does have some good pop and heck the secrete weapon could maybe do something with his glove…maybe

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Nov 15, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just exactly

What does this weapon “secrete”?

I kid

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 15, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It secretes

MAGIC.

by spants on Nov 16, 2008 1:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You ask...

but you really dont wanna know

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Nov 16, 2008 4:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Brian Barden

I kind of like giving barden a chance to play short. i didn’t see him miss any plays for the oly team and he hit well. sure would be worth taking a look.

i also like a trade with the rays and marlins. rays want hermida. we send fish anderson, skip and barton or comparable package and get jackson or sonnenstein from rays. rays have said these two are expendable. and fish are focusing on speed, defense and pitching and are willing to trade away power. (see mlb trade rumors) they also want to trade hermida and rays are hot for him. would also be good if we could snag zobrist somehow.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Nov 15, 2008 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I keep forgetting about Barden...

How would he look at 2b with his what appears to be above average bat in the number 2 slot ahead of Pujols and behind Rasmus?

1 Rasmus
2 Barden
3 Pujols

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 15, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

2009 CHONE Defense Projections that are weighted

These are based on 5 years of data from 2004-2008, weighted 1, .8, .6, .4, .2. The numbers are a combination of Stats ZR, Revised Zone rating, and Totalzone (which is not available for 2008). Instead of regressing these to a league average, the regression is to a run value derived from the Fan’s scouting report. The more a player has played, the more his rating is based on his stats. The less he has played, the more it is based on his scouting report.

http://lanaheimangelfan.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

Yunel Escobar = +6 at SS
Rafael Furcal= +2 at SS
Khalil Greene = +5 at SS
Orlando Hudson = +3 at 2B
Cesar Izturis = +7 at SS
Kelly Johnson = -5 at 2B
Adam Kennedy – +6 at 2B
Felipe Lopez = -7 at 2B and – 15 at SS
Aaron Miles = -5 at 2B and -11 at SS
Edgar Renteria = -6 at SS
Brian Roberts = +2 at 2B
Brendan Ryan = -4 at 2B and -2 at SS
Dan Uggla = -5 at 2B
Brandon Wood = -6 at SS
Ben Zobrist = -4 at 2B and -14 at SS

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 15, 2008 2:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

I'm a huge fan of...

Khalil Green… I mean the guys got some serious talent, regardless of his down year. I don’t know why we don’t talk about him more. I guess I need someone to tell me he’s been cheating on me with my best friend, but he’s got a great glove, a possible upside if he can get somewhat close to his freshmen year numbers? And don’t people flourish here in the enlightened atmosphere of St. Louis (I’m so naive)?

Another point… since apparently no one has the prospects/resources to get Peavy… when becomes the point when we can some kind of ‘going out of business’ sale on this guy… I thought he was supposed to be gone like yesterday minus three weeks?

by pattimagee on Nov 16, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How about a what if ?

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 15, 2008 3:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

What if we...

Don’t sign any MIFs but trade kennedy in a salary dump for a prospect.

Then give our MIF prospects a chance to fight for the open spots in the spring and see what happens.

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 15, 2008 3:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not against this...

especially if we keep Miles around (you can depend on him for league average offense and defense at second). I think there’s a good chance that two of Barden, Greene, Hoffpauir and Ryan can justify a roster spot (I listed them in that order for a reason).

by cardzfanbub on Nov 15, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles with the Mit

Miles is far below league average defensively. This last season, however, he was above average with the bat.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 15, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought at 2nd...

he was pretty well league average. I know he’s no good at SS or 3rd, but I thought he was adequate at 2nd.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 16, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Last year

I think he was actually a better short stop than a 2nd baseman.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 16, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i thought we wanted a good team

:-P

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Nov 15, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Uh, what MIF prospects are these?

The system is all but empty of “MIF prospects” at the higher, near-majors-ready levels. Hoffpauir retrogressed this year, and none of the others were looking all that good even at their best. Peter Kozma and Niko Vasquez may make it in two or three years, but they’re not ready for the Show yet.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 15, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

08 wsab

7, 1 and 1.
bet you can match those shares to the right player amongst miles, hudson and kennedy, w/out looking them up.

by ball in play on Nov 15, 2008 3:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

7 wsab (hudson), would have ranked 4th of our 08 position players……pujols 23, ludwick 15, glaus 10, hudson 7, molina 6, ankiel 5, schumaker 5, lopez 5, kennedy 1, miles 1, mather 1, the rest are negatives.

6 mil for 2 wsab or 8 mil for 7 wsab?……based on 08.
the pipline is dry and kennedy/miles are fa after 09. is just one middle infielder signed for 3 years too much to ask? santa? :)

by ball in play on Nov 15, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is Ap good friends with C.C?

haha

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 15, 2008 3:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Over at Beyond the Boxscore

Don’t they suggest using a 3 year average for accuracy of defensive metrics? Doing so would probably give a more accurate story of what the 2 have to offer, especially since both lost time to injury in that 3 year span.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 15, 2008 4:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If you look up I just posted a 5 year average

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 15, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ah

i read your post, but my brain skipped over that little b it of information. I still think 3 years would be a better extimate of actual performance for 09 because 5 years goes too far back.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 15, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs