Trade Idea/ Hot stove catch all thread 11/13-250 comments
I noticed that the Hotstove had reached the limit so I thought I would create a new one.
Some Pressing Headlines
- Braves are close to a deal for Jake Peavy.
- This means no Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar
- Padres will get Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton or Jo-Jo Reyes, and Blaine Boyer
- Free Agency starts tommorow
- The Mariners will make their decision this week on the manager or they will continue interviewing candidates. http://www.kffl.com/team/66/mlb
- The MVP is announced Monday
- From Matthew Leaches Article on Pujols winning the Negro League Baseball Museum's Oscar Charleston Legacy Award
- "It's becoming very clear that if the Baseball Writers' Association of America doesn't select Pujols as National League MVP next week, it will be a single voice in the wilderness."
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298 comments
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I think that big Al will win the mvp unanimously
Also some thoughts about trades. We have discussed getting Dan Uggla before, but now that Escobar and Johnson are off the market and Rafael Furcal appears to be unnatainable right now for contractual reasons, i think that trading for Uggla is the best option to improve our team.
To get Uggla from the Marlins we would have to package Ludwick with either Freese or Anderson. Trading for Uggla would improve our offense a lot. Despite the fact that Ludwick will probably put up better numbers than Uggla, the difference in production of Uggla and our current second base position would more than make up the difference b/t Luddy and the combo of Mather/Rasmus/Duncan and Schumacher that would replace Luddy’s playing time.
After the trade we should sign Hoffman to a 1 or 2 year deal giving time for Young Pitcher and Motte to get ready for the job. Then we should sign Affeldt and Brian Shouse as our LOOGY’s. Affeldt pitched nearly 80 innings this year so he is really more of a setup man than a LOOGY, he has the stuff to beat both righties and lefties consitently, but he also has the big sweeping curve to shutdown lefties. Shouse is great against lefties but terrible against righties. That being said he is on the wrong side of 40 and will probably be really cheap. If we would only use Shouse as a LOOGY and Affeldt as more of a setup man than both guys would have great years.
As for the starting rotation, I think we should move McClellan there because he really doesn’t fit into our bullpen plans. I would like to see what kind of starter he would be in the future, and he is also much better than our current 5 hole starter, Piniero.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 2:35 AM EST
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Furcal Unattainable?
I’m sorry, but I just don’t think that’s fair. He does prefer to stay in LA yes, but with the way Coletti is going after Manny, I’d say nothing is certain he’d go there. There is a lot of interest in Furcal, and other clubs in the market seem to have as much if not a bit more $$ on hand to offer, but every team still has multiple needs.
It’s been widely publicised on mlbtraderumors and other sites that Furcal is targeting at least a 4 year deal and not looking to take a paycut. His salary last year was 13Mil and change. Thus, 4 years at 14/15 million looks like 4 years and 60 million dollars.
I personally say we should be in on this. If we don’t get him fine, but I don’t think we should cast this aside immediately. We have 25+ million to play with, correct?
Sign Furcal to 4 year 60 million. That leaves 10 million this year. With raises in Arbitration to Ank/Ludwick and Welley, we probably have 5 million or so. Personally, I think you spend it on a LHRP, two if you can, but at least one good one. You use T. Greene/B. Ryan or some other cheap option at UTIL, Kennedy is 2B and your outfield roster/remains intact.
This does not add a starter, meaning Boggs/Thompson/Todd/McClellan must be used as a 5th/emergency starter if Carp is not productive or in the event of injury. we have the RHRP to spare.
Next year, Glaus comes off the books, AK too, Ankiel may or may not be here, and cheap alternatives will exist for all. Raises are due to WW and Molina, but nothing that would handcuff us from adding an SP and addressing other needs for 2010. We’d also have Garcia potentially back for Rotation in 2010 and could have a surprise or two from the Farm Arms.
I do realize a Furcal signing limits our financial flexibility, but at the same time, vastly improves our run production at the top of the lineup and solid MI defense, which is proven to help pitching. Lineup looks like this, and we compete in the NL Central, IMO.
Furcal
Rasmus
Pujols
Ludwick
Ankiel
Glaus
Molina
Pitcher
Kennedy
Ryan/T. Greene UTIL, Mather/Freese/Wallace Corner IF, OF—Skip/Barton/Mather/Duncan
I don’t expect it to happen, but I do think it’s possible. We should definitely look into it.
by timmycardinals on
Nov 13, 2008 10:48 AM EST
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While I like your ideas...
I have some issues with your math:
- The increase in payroll due to arbitration will be more significant than just $5M for next year. Ank made $990,000 last year on a 1 year deal to avoid arbitration. If he gets arb this year, he’ll be due around $4M or so since this is his last year of arbitration and the fact that his counting stats have been pretty good for the last 18 months. Ludwick made $440,000 last year and will get a bump up to at least $4M if not more than that ($5M-$6M) considering his monster year in 2008 coupled with his decent rookie numbers in 2007. That’s a $6.5M bump up on the pessimistic end and could end up being an $8M bump on the optimistic side of things. You also forgot the Welley and Schu will also be due a raise this year, which could sop up the other $2M or so that is left. There goes your $10M right there.
- Piniero also comes off the books next year — he’ll make $7.5M in ‘09. While that helps the payroll, it also loses us a rotation starter that you won’t be able to budget a FA for. We also would lose Wellemeyer to FA or have to sign him to a long term deal, thereby investing more money in the pitching staff. So you could potentially lose two starters in 2009 and have no way to replace them with the current budgeted payroll. That means that 2, and possibly 3 depending on Carpenter, of Boggs/Todd/Mortenson/Garcia/Lynn would have to fill in the rotation in 2010. I’m not sure I like that scenario.
- You’re also not factoring in a Pujols extension. He’s making $16M per year until the end of his deal in 2009. By WAR last year he was a $44.5M/yr baseball player. He’s going to get a significant increase in salary, probably in the $10-$15M per year range, to put his annual salary somewhere between $25M and $30M per year, which is still a tremendous discount considering his WAR value. If you consider that Ludwick will be due somewhere between $7-$9M in arb, Ankiel would have to be a FA signing in 2010 for multiple years if we keep him, and Wainer and Molina both start getting expensive in years 2011-2012 you’re now looking at a payroll of around $125-$130M with Furcal in the mix.
My point is, we really cannot afford Furcal at $15M per season for the next four years, if our current budget stays the same. We can’t even afford him next year if the team is going to do anything about the bullpen situation. If Dewitt wants to extend the payroll north of $120M in the future, then he might be an option. If not, I really don’t think that he is at that price.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 11:44 AM EST
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The Pujols extension is a huge deal
obviously. But the real question is can the Cardinals continue to compete with their payroll? I think they can, but they have to start drafting better or it’s a hopeless cause. The club must produce cost-controlled starters and premium position players. We can’t just crank out three more slugging outfielders every year.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 12:01 PM EST
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I don't think that they can...
at least not through 2013, unless those pitchers I mentioned in the high minors all turn out to be #3-#4 type starters at the big league level, and I’m not sure that they will be. While I think the team should pay Pujols accordingly, and he should retire a Cardinal, I also think that it makes it awfully hard to sign an impact pitcher or position player to a free-agent contract when one guy on your 40 man roster is making 1/4 of the total payroll. If Albert wants to stay in St. Louis he would also need to recognize this and possibly defer some of his $$$ until after he retires. It would be the prudent thing to do for him since the money would be guaranteed and we’d be able to build a contender around him for the remainder of his career.
I left a few things out. Glaus comes off the books after next year and will hopefully be replaced by one of Wallace, Freese, or Craig. We get some cost control back there. We also have Daryl Jones in the minors, who may project as a solid left fielder and a 2,6, or 7 hitter in the majors. I don’t think that we know enough about him yet to make that determination. Hopefully Kozma or Tyler Greene can produce at either SS or 2B for us in the future, but I’m not holding my breath with either of those two guys.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 12:53 PM EST
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The only real answer for Albert
which is similar to the answer for Michael Jordan, is to give him equity in the team.
As to the rest, imagine if we had a Kamir or Price in the wings, rather than Mortenson or Boggs. Nonetheless, the team can’t be afraid to bring up guys like Jesse Todd and put them in the bullpen, or even the rotation. One of the reasons Whitey Herzog’s teams did what they did was his willingness to throw young pitchers into the fire.
Yes, next year looks a lot better with a replacement of Wallace for Glaus, Garcia for Pineiro and (presumably) Perez for whoever. That’s a nice shedding of salary that can be applied to second or a new starting pitcher.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 1:06 PM EST
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Why would
Albert want to own a baseball team? They don’t make any money. :P
by spants on
Nov 13, 2008 3:59 PM EST
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Albert already owns baseball teams
that is, all the teams he plays against.
by mattybobo on
Nov 13, 2008 4:13 PM EST
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Albert can't have equity in the team
MLB rules permit players from having any kind of ownership stake in any team in the MLB. I believe all the major sports leagues have this rule.
Yes, next year looks a lot better with a replacement of Wallace for Glaus, Garcia for Pineiro and (presumably) Perez for whoever. That’s a nice shedding of salary that can be applied to second or a new starting pitcher.
Did you mean 2010? Garcia had Tommy John, so he won’t pitch at all next year but might be ready to go by the start of 2010. Wallace will start the season in AA and possibly move up to AAA by June if he’s just mashing the ball, but with Freese and Glaus ahead of him he’ll have to hope that someone gets hurt before he has a shot to make the jump.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 4:31 PM EST
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Yeah, I'm already thinking next year is this year.
Too bad about the equity. They should change the rule. I’m pretty sure the NBA doesn’t have the rule, or didn’t when Michael Jordan went to the Wizards.
Equity is a great reward for players and has tremendous tax benefits over salary. It would also allow a team like the Nationals to pick up a star they couldn’t otherwise afford and anchor a team around him.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 4:37 PM EST
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MJ had to sell his shares in the Washington franchise
Before the league would allow him to suit up for them. There’s a million reasons why these type of contracts would be a bad idea, item #1 would be leagues losing their anti-trust exemption.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 14, 2008 9:52 AM EST
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isn't MLB
the only league with the anti-trust exemption? At least that is what I hear every time Congress threatens to revoke it
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Nov 14, 2008 5:42 PM EST
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you are correct sir.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 14, 2008 9:43 PM EST
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Yes
Legally they are the only one, but there’s literally no difference between the major leagues and every other pro sports league in the country other than the MLB was the only league around when the government was trust busting. There’s a reason that he NFL, NBA, and NHL haven’t been prosecuted for trusts…the MLB’s is pretty much understood for the rest of the sports leagues.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 17, 2008 9:07 AM EST
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Furcal or 60 mil
that sounds like a terrible idea. Even when healthy Furcal isn’t a 15 mil a year guy. He doesn’t consistently hit for a high average, he doesn’t have consistent power and he makes a lot of errors. I think at most he is a 3 year 30 mil type player.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 2:21 PM EST
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if i knew furcal would give us
165 games a year i would definitely be fine with paying him 15 a year.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Nov 13, 2008 2:23 PM EST
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165?
Damn, why not just say 173? That’s the number he’d play if we got swept through the playoffs and World Series. As my dad says: “When you’re dreaming, dream BIG!!!”
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 4:33 PM EST
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exactly 165 games would mean we got swept in the first round of the playoffs.
who are we, the Cubs?
by mattybobo on
Nov 13, 2008 4:47 PM EST
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Whoops
meant to say swept through the playoffs and World Series….it’s been a long day in crappy weather :)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 4:59 PM EST
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i guess i was
thinking about some days off for him after we clinch so early.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Nov 13, 2008 5:26 PM EST
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This could mean we could pick up Greene
now that the Padres have a SS or we could still get escobar from them
by bearcatcardfan on
Nov 13, 2008 2:40 AM EST
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What would it take to get Greene?
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 2:49 AM EST
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I think chris Duncan would do the trick
but seriously I don’t know I think the Pads are looking to cut salary so he could probably be had for skip or craig or someone like that
by bearcatcardfan on
Nov 13, 2008 2:56 AM EST
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probably not too much with the addition of Escobar.
It’s all about salary, but then again, I’m not sure Greene is worth the full price of his salary as it is, let alone trading someone for him. They’d have to chip it down a little.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Nov 13, 2008 12:17 PM EST
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Crabman and Kennedy for Greene...
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
by Red Blazer on
Nov 13, 2008 6:35 PM EST
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no, because
greene and kennedy are both salary dumps. we could give up next to nothing if we assume all of greene’s salary. Probably just a middling prospect/non prospect. stavinoha? cody haerther?
by dunc4life on
Nov 13, 2008 8:26 PM EST
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beware the man who wants to give you something for nothing.
by tom s. on
Nov 14, 2008 2:45 AM EST
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if {the man} thinks "khalil greenes" are worth "nothing"
I’ll shake his hand and thank him profusely, and give him nothing, every day of the week. Sadly, Towers is not a fool, esp not with depodesta advising. He knows what Greene is worth.
(So does Mo, I think. We’ll see how it works out.)
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on
Nov 14, 2008 3:00 AM EST
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Hey, make the case for me. I don't claim to know K. greene well.
But I look at his stats and he’s not a guy who had a bad 2008. He’s a guy who had a good 2004. He’s got 2400 ML PA’s and has a lifetime OBP of .304. He has only once posted an OBP+ of more than 100 in the aforementioned 04 season.
He costs $6M and whatever prospect or OF it takes to get him. We could have both Barden and Izturis for $3M; not that they are my first choices at SS. But explain why K. Greene is worth the extra $3M over both Barden and Izturis, let alone prospects on top of the $3M.
Because I sure don’t see what his value is.
by tom s. on
Nov 14, 2008 3:28 AM EST
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Greene is also a guy
who hit 15+ homers in 4 straight seasons in a terrible hitters park before this year. And if you take out last season’s miserable OPS of .559, which certainly seems flukeish considering his consistency before it , than his career OPS is .756. I would definitely take a chance on Kahlil especially because we would probably only have to trade a guy like Boggs to get him. He is almost as good defensively as Iz and he definitely has the potential to hit 20 + homers. I would say that with the combination of moving to a better hitters park and playing with a better linuep around him, then 20 + homers would be very likely.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 15, 2008 2:24 AM EST
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I am intrigued by the possiblity
of Greene, but Boggs is too much. Maybe a John Jay or somebody like that.
Then we could promote T. Greene to play 2B and listen to Shannon get confused.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 15, 2008 10:13 AM EST
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Randy Wolf maybe?
He is a free agent to be, he is a lefty and he shouldn’t cost much. He has always been a good strikeout pitcher and he eats up innings. If we could get him for 3 years at 4-5 mil a year, than that would be perfect.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 3:13 AM EST
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That is well below market value so I doubt that happens
But I like Randy Wolf as an option there is no way he signs that contract though
by bearcatcardfan on
Nov 13, 2008 3:16 AM EST
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I also like Randy Wolf
and if the Cards can plug the holes in the MIF and fix the relief staff with trades it could be workable. Would Wolf sign for $7 milion a year? $8 million a year? What would it take? If reasonable enough this would leave the Redbirds with money for other increased salaries in either trades or free agency…
Just wondering…..
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 13, 2008 11:04 AM EST
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He's a left coast guy
I think he’ll probably end up back in Southern California pitching for somebody, and he may take a Brian Giles sized pay-cut to do it. He was traded by the Padres last year in a waiver deal, but has pitched in San Diego and Los Angeles the past two seasons.
I think we’d actually have to overpay him to come to the midwest if any of the California teams are interested, and I don’t think that’s a good idea.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 11:23 AM EST
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I agree, the Cards only have so much money to work with
thats why I am wondering what he would want to pitch. I like the thought of him pitching in St. Louis, but only if the Redbirds have enough money left over to fix all their holes. Thanks for your insights…. :) I didn’t realize he was attached to the left coast. Not worth it if him coming to the Cardinals doesn’t allow us to make the team more solid overall.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 13, 2008 11:47 AM EST
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thought I read that the geographic issue with Wolf is has been overblown?
I probably saw something like this on mlbtraderumors. He’s reportedly said that region is not as big a concern as a “winning team” but of course the definition of winning team is somewhat fluid. It could mean a team that will definitely compete, or it could mean a team that’s a good chance to get deep into the playoffs, etc. etc.
by mattybobo on
Nov 13, 2008 1:38 PM EST
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Wolfe is a classic Duncan-type pitcher
so he would be perfect on last year’s team. He would be perfect on next year’s team if they can get the other slots ironed out first. He’s going to be looking for Soupcan money, which I doubt he will receive. But it’s tough to envision a lefthanded starter with adequate stuff being a steal in this market. Boggs or McClellan are steals, and either give you $8 million in flexibility to pursue LOOGys, a closer and a shortstop.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 11:59 AM EST
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Are people experiencing a significant delay with threads at 250 comments?
I’ve not encountered a slowdown until 700-800 comments.
by azruavatar on
Nov 13, 2008 8:44 AM EST
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It hapens to me at like 300 -350
but it also becomes hard to navigate through all different ideas and it becomes impossible to read everything and I just give up
by bearcatcardfan on
Nov 13, 2008 10:49 AM EST
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Navigation, or lack thereof is a far bigger deal.
I only get slow load times when we’ve got game threads with images going.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 11:55 AM EST
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I experience a slowdown occurs at around 750 or so comments
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 13, 2008 10:54 AM EST
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I'm not seeing any issues.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on
Nov 13, 2008 2:05 PM EST
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I'm not having any problems.
If we are going to have new threads open up after 250 comments maybe the old threads should be closed, hard to follow numerous hot stove threads.
Pujols for Secretary of Defense.
by davethebutcher on
Nov 13, 2008 4:11 PM EST
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That's part of why I ask
At 250 comments a thread, we’ll have a new one each day and no one will be able to do more than have the same convo over and over and over. I’d like to see something more along the lines of 500 comments and then one of the admins can hide that thread a few days after the new one goes up. But that’s just my 2cents and if people are experiencing problems with the thread, then I can understand.
by azruavatar on
Nov 13, 2008 5:51 PM EST
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i agree that 250 is not enough,
but too many people were complaining that even 375-400 was way to much. So maybe something like 350.
by dunc4life on
Nov 13, 2008 8:27 PM EST
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Well,
If it looks like we are going to have a new thread every day, then maybe we could schedule a daily Hot Stove thread.
Pujols for Secretary of Defense.
by davethebutcher on
Nov 13, 2008 8:28 PM EST
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no, i think azru
meant that it would be ridiculous to have one every day, meaning that we should increase the limit.
by dunc4life on
Nov 13, 2008 8:29 PM EST
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250 comments isn't near enough
mine gets slow around 350-400 but we’ll fill 250 in a couple of days. Limiting this to 250 comments defeats the purpose of the hot stove thread. It needs to be bigger. I don’t think we could muster 700, but 400 shouldn’t be unreasonable. That would last us most of a week.
by chuckb on
Nov 13, 2008 10:37 PM EST
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that's what i figured with the one from a few weeks ago,
but too many people were complaining that it was too hard to navigate. So you think we should just make it 400-450, and its tough cookies for those who don’t like it?
by dunc4life on
Nov 13, 2008 11:12 PM EST
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latest at mlbtraderumors
apparently the cubs acquired kevin gregg… i wonder if this to to trade with the padres as their replacement for hoffmann?
and speaking of the padres, apparently they “aren’t even close” to dealing peavy and atlanta has a deadline.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Nov 13, 2008 2:25 PM EST
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contingency plan
If they cannot re-sign Wood? Marmol closes, Gregg in a set-up role.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on
Nov 13, 2008 3:31 PM EST
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MLB trade rumors reports that Kerry Wood and the
Cubs have parted ways.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 13, 2008 3:50 PM EST
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Maybe he would like
To come down to StL and stick it to the Cubs?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on
Nov 13, 2008 4:00 PM EST
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would be fun to watch wouldn't it? :)
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 13, 2008 4:06 PM EST
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I still don't trust his health at all
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Nov 13, 2008 7:43 PM EST
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definitely a question, but it
still would be fun to see… :)
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 13, 2008 8:07 PM EST
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i don't trust him period
he’s been on the wrong side of the fence for far too long. he’e got way too much history with that team up north to play for us.
hell, i’d like if Jim Edmonds,,,,,,,,
if it came down to him & IZZY, i’d choose IZZY every damn time.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Nov 14, 2008 1:47 AM EST
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there is something to be said about Wood
being a Cub for so long, but then look at what happened with Edmonds. A lot of fans in Chicago felt the same way about him. But, he did good for them, unfortunately for the rest of the Central.
I have to admit, seeing Wood in a Cards uniform would take a bit to get used too. LOL I doubt he’ll end up in St. Louis anyways, but it would be interesting in a twisted sort of way.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on
Nov 15, 2008 7:16 AM EST
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I find it hard to believe...
the Cubs sent Ceda to the Marlins for Gregg. Ceda was supposedly the guy the Orioles wanted to complete a deal for Brian Roberts last spring. Seems like the Cubs didn’t receive near what they thought Ceda was worth this spring…
by Jumsy on
Nov 13, 2008 4:41 PM EST
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ESPN reporting
Nick Swisher to the Evil Empire
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on
Nov 13, 2008 3:36 PM EST
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If they got him for just a minor league pitcher
that’s a huge steal, imo, even if his numbers were down next year.
by azruavatar on
Nov 13, 2008 3:51 PM EST
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Yeah
I’m surprised at that too. I know Swisher was bad last year, but this could easily still work out great for the Yankess.
by Merry CRasmus on
Nov 13, 2008 4:19 PM EST
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so does this mean we're not trading ankiel to the yankees?
not that i was holding my breath or anything.
by mattybobo on
Nov 13, 2008 4:48 PM EST
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They are probably more inclined to use him at 1B
I’d guess.
by azruavatar on
Nov 13, 2008 5:51 PM EST
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We have another outfielder with a bad back
to fill that position as well. “Brian, I’ve got you’re firstbaseman right here!”
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 6:09 PM EST
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yea
i think this deal means cc sabbathia is about to be a very rich man
they traded for swisher, which to me means they are out of the texiera running…they are going to be givin cc a ton of coin
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 13, 2008 6:11 PM EST
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Ah. Darn useful players who play more than one position...
Although the Yanks might like his flexibility. Have they actually announced their plans for using him or is this just informed, logical speculation (which is probably correct)?
by mattybobo on
Nov 14, 2008 11:20 AM EST
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Randy Wolf
I highly doubt Wolf signs for 7-8 mil per year. Jeff Suppan signed for 10 mil per a year ago. And Wolf is a lefty which will bring a hefty sum.
by bigmotors on
Nov 13, 2008 3:39 PM EST
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Suppan vs. Wolf
Suppan signed for $10M/yr in the 2006 offseason after the Cards won the World Series. Wolf signed as a Free Agent with the Dodgers for $7.5M in 2007 and then signed a $4.75M, one year deal with the Padres last offseason. With his injury history I certainly don’t see him getting Suppan money, because that’s part of the reason that Suppan got paid — he’s going to give you 180-210 innings and 30 starts every year.
I think he’ll be looking for a 1-3 year deal in the neighborhood of $20-$24M total.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 4:40 PM EST
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Brad Penny, anyone?
What about Brad Penny? Here’s a case why:
1. In 2007, he had the 8th-highest ratio of ground balls to fly balls in the league. Hmm, I wonder what Dave Duncan likes in a pitcher…
2. He’s a Type B free agent, so you’re not giving up your #1 draft pick.
3. He is coming off an injury-plagued 2008, but he was close to coming back at the end of the year. He might be willing to take a reasonable $ one-year flier, which would give the Cards time to figure out what’s up with Carp. LA declined his $9.5 option (partially to free up Manny $), so he probably could be had for less than that.
4. He was a horse for LA in 2007, throwing 200 innings with a 3.03 ERA. He has a respectable 4.06 career ERA.
5. He shut down the Yankees in the 2003 World Series.
You figure Jocketty has to be circling on this one. If you want to save Ankiel for a middle infielder, I think this is the move Mo should make.
by El Mertato on
Nov 13, 2008 5:25 PM EST
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Good idea, but...
“He might be willing to take a reasonable $ one-year flier”
It is this assumption, that, IMO, dooms this otherwise reasonable idea.
No way Penny needs to accept any sort of “flier” offer. All his baggage aside, he’s going to get 3 years somewhere.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on
Nov 13, 2008 5:39 PM EST
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3 years seems to much
maybe 2 years with a vesting option/club option. but 3 guaranteed years seems like to much from an average gm. who knows, maybe he can con 3 years out of a dumb gm (sabean, bowden, etc.)
by dunc4life on
Nov 13, 2008 8:28 PM EST
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No
I still remember the last time I faced him, and he K’d me on 3 straight high heaters.
lol
I’ve actually mentioned that he wouldn’t be a bad signing before.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on
Nov 14, 2008 9:36 AM EST
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Randy Johnson
Is not returning to the D-backs
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3701039
He even offered a 50% paycut (7.5MM) to stay. Does this mean we could sign him for $10MM? Should we?
I think so.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 13, 2008 5:50 PM EST
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Not for $10M
I don’t see the rotation as being the biggest problem next year. The bullpen has needs that should be addressed first with the middle infield being a close second. Finding another starter ranks a distant 3rd, imo, because there will be somebody to pick up in the spring this year, right around the time we signed Kyle Lohse last year. Otherwise I’m fine with Boggs getting a chance to start the year in the rotation. If we can shore up the other two needs cost effectively I think then we can look for a starter.
Now, if he would be willing to sign for around $8M or so then I’d have to probably do it, simply because there’s very little risk involved and we wouldn’t have to worry about him after this season. His chances at 300 wins and 5000 K’s are also promotable since he may be the last guy to do either.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 6:05 PM EST
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Agreed--If you are expecting something big to happen fast with the rotation....
you are going to be disappointed. We need lefty relief, and we need a new middle infield.
They are going to wait out the market on starting pitching, and hope that someone falls into our lap late a la Kyle Lohse last year.
Unit could be that guy though, for one year I’d give him 8 mill no sweat
by moser34 on
Nov 13, 2008 7:12 PM EST
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We should offer him
$8.5 – 9 M. I’d say that’s about his value. He’d be a perfect fit — 1 year, solid pitcher, lefty. Sure, he’ll miss 10 starts or so but we could use our spare guys to fill in. I’ve mentioned this before.
by chuckb on
Nov 13, 2008 10:34 PM EST
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i'm gdm & i approve of this message
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Nov 14, 2008 1:48 AM EST
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Off topic -- Peavy
Why aren’t the Angels trying to make a push for Jake Peavy? They’re rumored to be in the running for Sabathia, who will cost more than 7Y/$150M or so. They could easily give away a better package than the Braves are offering by ponying up Wood, Adenhart, Willits, and another one of their minor league pitching prospects. Wouldn’t it make more sense to trade for Peavy and then sign Teixeira to a $150M deal instead, since he’s a much less risky asset than CC is?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 13, 2008 6:09 PM EST
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I think Texeira is their big hold up.
But let’s get one thing straight: No one but New York is the running for Sabathia if the rumor today is true. Six years for $175 million? Madness.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 6:11 PM EST
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The Yankees never seem to surprise me with there contracts
26 mil a year to arod, over 20 a year for jeter, over 20 a year for giambi. It’s unbelievable
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 7:37 PM EST
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Pujols and Luddy are silver sluggers
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 7:51 PM EST
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Nice recognition for Ludwick.
Chipper Jones was robbed at third, BTW.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 13, 2008 8:08 PM EST
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yeah,
but the GG and SS have become damn popularity/big media market contests.
by dunc4life on
Nov 13, 2008 8:30 PM EST
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Jeremy guthrie
i don’t know if the orioles would be willing to, but guthrie is cheap and has put up FIPs of 4.49 and 4.57 the last two seasons. thats better than pinero and actually close to what welly put up this year…i figure we could get him for not much, but i’m not sure the orioles are looking to deal
he could be a solid #4 or #5 for us and would let us not to have to use pinero(assuming carp gets healthy)
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 13, 2008 8:53 PM EST
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Nah.....Baltimore can't spare him.
Guthrie and a bunch of younger guys who aren’t ready and younger guys who may never be ready. That’s their current staff. Someone has to pitch the games……
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Nov 13, 2008 9:08 PM EST
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Guthrie is the best Baltimore has
He is actually really good though and might have the ability to be a #2 or 3 starter. He has excellent stuff and he throws strikes. He is Baltimore’s Wainright; cost effective, young, should improve in the future, good command. He is really Baltimore’s only stable pitcher so I don’t think that they will be willing to trade him.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 9:17 PM EST
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kerry wood, anyone?
i think he could be mighty effective in a non-closer’s role…
by RedbirdAvenger on
Nov 13, 2008 9:38 PM EST
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i think he could be effective in a closer's role
i personally think we should sign prior and have him win the cy young
and sign wood and have him lead the league in saves
and use them both to beat the cubs in the nlcs to go to the world series
and then let the cubs resign them both after the season and have their arms fall off
maybe not the last part
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 13, 2008 9:43 PM EST
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You could have knocked me over with a feather when I heard the Cubs were not
going to try to keep Kerry Wood. I have to get my mind around this for awhile before I can seriously consider it….I bet Cubs fans are up in arms. They love Kerry Wood. I thought he’d be a Cub until his arm became unattached. Really.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Nov 13, 2008 10:47 PM EST
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Seems Gregg would have been a cheap get for us
was kinda hoping to see Gregg come in and handle closing for awhile until Perez and Motte got a little more experience. Cubs got him for not much.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on
Nov 13, 2008 11:40 PM EST
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I don't think that the Cards should trade any of there top 5 outfielders
Meaning Ankiel, Raz, Ludwick, Schu and Mather. Say we go into next year with a starting OF of Ank, Luddy and Raz. We would have two above average OF on the bench, Schu and Mather, that would still get a lot of playing time with the way TLR like to use his bench guys. 4 of the guys are under team control for at least 3 years, the only one who isn’t is Ankiel. I know that we have talked about trading Ank because we have a lot of good young OF, he is gonna be a FA after this year and he is injury prone. However, Ank wouldn’t get us much in a trade because those reasons. When he was healthy last year, he was an exceptional player offensively and defensively. If we keep him for next year and he gets injured, than we still have Schu and Mather who could adequately replace him. If we keep him and he has stays healthy and has a big year than he would help our team win. And then if we let him walk after 09 than we would still have excellent outfield depth to replace him.
As for filling our bullpen and MIF needs we could do so without trading those top 5 outfielders. I would personally take a risk on Greene of the Padres. He is excellent defensively, has a ton of potential offensively and the Padres are looking to trade him and dump his salary due to the fact that he had a miserable offensive year. We could probably get him straight up for Anderson and Allen. Neither of those two players has any place in the Cards future, Anderson is blocked by Molina and Allen by Freese, Wallace and Glaus. I would bet that the Greene would hit close to his 07 numbers because he would be surrounded by a good offense and hitting in a more hitter friendly park.
Our bullpen is actually very deep with Kinney, Perez and Motte all figuring to pitch full seasons. Those three players alone would turn our terrible bullpen last year into a pretty good one even without a closer. Obviously we need to sign some LOOGY’s as that was a huge problem for us last year. I would advocate signing Affeldt and Shouse, but there are 4 or 5 lefty’s on the FA market who could all fit our needs. They would probably sign for about 3 years for about 3-4 mil a year. We would still then have a lot of payroll slack to go after a good closer. I like Hoff who wouldn’t cost much and would probably sign for 1 or 2 years. He would be a great bridge to Perez, Motte or Kinney to take his place. Plus he could really help our young pitchers to get better by that time. Just by those 3 factors alone our bullpen would go from one of worst in the league to one of the best.
As for our starting rotation, it looks OK at the moment. I would personally move McClellan to the rotation because he probably won’t fit into our bullpen next year and he would be a definite improvement over Piniero. We would go into next year with a rotation of WW, Carp, Lohse, Welly and K-Mac. We would have very good depth barring an injury with Piniero, Thompson, Boggs and Todd in the minors.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 13, 2008 11:42 PM EST
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Bryan Anderson and Allen Craig
is, in my mind, way, way to steep a price for Greene, especially if its a salary dump by the Friars. I even think Anderson by himself is too much for Greene, because Greene is only locked up for 09 and catchers that can hit, even a little bit, are just as rare as SS that can hit. I personally dont see Greene as anything more than an upgraded stopgap at the SS position. I assume, and this has been discussed extensively by those who have a better understanding of the factors that have hindered Greene besides overall talent limitations (Petco, BABIP, injuries, etc), that he will at least be comparable to Iz2 in the field and with the potential to be substantially more productive at the plate
I am in agreement with your assesment of the outfield. Unless Mo gets an offer he cant refuse, an infield of Greene/Kennedy/Miles/Ryan/Greene is acceptable if not potent. Getting a LOOGY is superextraimportant and my favorites happen to be Affedlt and Ohman. Offer Arbitration to Springer, get the picks, and if he signs for ~3M, then great. If not oh well. RHRP is overloaded and it is concerning, if thompson is not on the team, to me to not have a long relief guy who can mop up. I have heard Franklin advertised by some for that job but i dont trust Larussa to not use Franklin in the set-up role and stick somebody more talented and less well-suited back there.
I am not ready to count on Carp as the numero 2 at least until he gets a better idea on how his nerve is reacting. My rotation looks like WW, Welle, Lohse, Pineiro, and Carp, with Boggs, and Mort/Todd/other as the reinforcements. Pineiro in the 4 spot scares me but (warning, opinion with very little basis in fact upcoming) i think the injury risk of mcclellan as a starter is greater than in the ’pen. Looper has to be offered arbitration and i wouldnt mind us resigning him but more than 3 years (2 and an team option would be great, but would probably mean ~10M/yr) would be getting pretty close to blocking the young from possibly producing similarly but at a fraction of the cost. Mo should see if he can strike gold twice with the ST signing approach.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on
Nov 14, 2008 1:22 AM EST
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I concur with this.
I would rather not trade any of the outfielders right now. If need be, either Schumaker or Barton could go. The four smackers need to stay. Let’s see if we can stay with the Cubs in offensive production this year. Ha!
I don’t know what Greene’s real value is, but I concur with his quality. He’s maybe a poor man’s Yunel Escobar. But if he returns to form, he’s a steal and would fit in well over the intermediate term, assuming the Cards were to extend him. Second base can be fitted out with spare parts easily enough. LOOGys can be gotten through free agency, possibly even re-signing Villone (I know—cough—but did you see Goold’s article in the PD today on this?) or bringing up Ty Johnson.
The No. 5 slot in the rotation will be either (a) McClellan (b) Boggs © FA to be signed in the next month or (d) FA to be pulled off the scrap heap ala Lohse. I’m betting on C, but A is also a good possibility.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 14, 2008 2:09 AM EST
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I think this makes a lot of sense
but what are you going to do if Duncan is healthy? Surely somebody has to go then, right?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 14, 2008 9:30 AM EST
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Best way to fill MI is to deal OF...
…probably. Anderson and Freese/Craig as well as minor league RHRPs could be used as well but players like K Greene, O Hudson, even Furcal are barely, if even, an upgrade over the Itzturis/Miles/Kennedy MI from last year. I agree with the sentiment that our 5 top outfielders are all very nice to have- young, cost controlled, nice potential- but what about Rasmus? When does he get a shot? I know he’s still young but even if we kept him in the minors we’d still have Barton as a 6th outfielder with Rasmus, Jay, Jones- and Stankonia, I guess- waiting in the wings. Point is, all the points about how desirable our top 5 are are valid. And those 5 along with our high minors prospects create a huge glut that we could trade from-either to fill MI need or stock up prospects at other positions (starting pitching, anyone?)
Oh yeah, if Duncan is healthy, there’s another guy in the OF…
by BustaCard on
Nov 14, 2008 12:09 PM EST
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I agree about MIF
I think that Furcal and Hudson aren’t much of an upgrade especially for the money they will make. I still would advocate trading for Greene because the Pads are basically giving him away and he has tremendous power potential as well as great defense. I would like to see a trade for Mark Ellis of Oakland. He is coming off a terrible offensive year, but he still had a higher OPS than Iz or kennedy. Also before last year he was a very good offensive player, hitting 19 homers in 07. We could probably trade Anderson and Freese for Ellis and get Greene for Boggs. We would have the best defensive MIF in the game, which we had this year, but this version could easily hit 40 homers more than this years.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 14, 2008 12:56 PM EST
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Jack Wilson anyone
I don’t know if they would deal within the division but Mather could probably get the deal done or Craig possibly.
Believe it or not, I also exchanged e-mails with someone in Pittsburgh concerning shortstop Jack Wilson. Way too much free time on my hands.
The Pirates are willing to deal Wilson, though they don’t need to dump his salary. They’re believed to want a young pitcher (stand in line) but would settle for a young third baseman or outfielder with some pop.
http://masnsports.com/2008/11/talkin-baseball.html
by bearcatcardfan on
Nov 14, 2008 1:19 PM EST
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I'd rather trade them Craig
straight up for Jack Wilson, and they then have to pick up $2M of his salary in 2009 — he’s due $7.25M for next year. I would also be fine with sending them Kennedy as part of the package as a straight salary dump, and also to stick it to Adam for requesting a trade after a subpar 2 years in St. Louis.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 14, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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AK will probably go to Pittsburgh and win a Silver Slugger just to stick it to us
by bearcatcardfan on
Nov 14, 2008 1:34 PM EST
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he'll go to chicago and he'll be the dark horse hank aaron award winner
the wrigley winds will just keep carrying those upper-cut swing flyballs over the fence.
by mattybobo on
Nov 14, 2008 1:49 PM EST
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There is really no one who I would want to trade
But Schu would probably be the best option. He has the least potential, although he speed and defensive versatility are great for our team, also against righties he looks like Albert. However he would bring some pretty good trade value in a trade, better than Duncan.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 14, 2008 12:45 PM EST
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it's 2AM! has MO signed anyone yet????
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
what’t taking him so long?? what’s he waiting on???
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Nov 14, 2008 1:55 AM EST
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i was definitely
expecting furcal in a birds on a bat uniform by now…… should be a press conference anytime now….
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Nov 14, 2008 3:41 AM EST
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No but I hear DeWitt has signed Chriss Angel The Mindfreak
to try and make a big illusion to the fans thinking the Cards spent a lot money and made the team better. Before every game Chriss will hypnotize the fans thinking DeWitt pulled out all the stops to make the team a contender. Everybody will think that the money they spend at the park is going towards helping the team. The fans will also recieve a free deck of playing cards and a ticket to watch Chriss walk on water at Lake DeWitt at the All-Star Break.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on
Nov 14, 2008 4:27 AM EST
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Thanks for opening my eyes...
I thought the Cards were gonna be “aggressive” but I guess it was just Chris Angel using his powers to make me believe this. I guess MO thought picking up Manning was “aggressive”
by wizardofozzie on
Nov 14, 2008 9:07 PM EST
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Here's an option for 2nd base (a bit of a stretch)
Aaron Herr..the son of our own Tommy Herr. He is a minor League free agent (was with the Reds minor leagues). So we could sign him VERY cheap and who knows to some he might be considerd an upgrade over Kennedy at 2nd at least in the HR/RBI dept. Maybe not so much in average. Herr hit .221 in the minors last year. He did have 11 Hrs and 40 rbi. with a 263/.383/.646 Line…(not real pretty I know). He at least might be worth taking a flyer on for a chance in the minors. But he would have to get his on base percentage up and his average up to really be considered. It’s probably just me rooting for Tommy’s son more than anything…but I thought it might be worth a post.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on
Nov 14, 2008 7:47 AM EST
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Where did you get those numbers?
First off your “Herr hit .221 in the minors last year. He did have 11 Hrs and 40 rbi. with a 263/.383/.646 Line” contradicts itself.
Secondly his line for 2008 was .245/.285/.411 11HR 40 RBI. His career line is .264/.313/.421.
Third, he is 27 and never played above AAA.
Last year Kennedy hit .280/.321/.372 2HR 36RBI and he has a career line of .276/.328/.389. IMO AK is the better player, and that isn’t even counting defense.
by StLHugo on
Nov 14, 2008 10:16 AM EST
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The Cardinals...
Had him at one point, and let him go. I think there was probably a reason.
Trade Ankiel instead of Luddy!!! Why go buy an impact bat when we got one?
by Ibeatanorexia06 on
Nov 14, 2008 1:39 PM EST
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Any clue what Mo offered Floppy?
I hope it’s only a one-yr. deal and no more than $4M. We’re going to have to eat some of AK’s contract when he’s dealt.
If Floppy takes the Cards’ offer, does this mean the end of the Aaron Miles’ era?
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on
Nov 14, 2008 11:00 AM EST
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I read Floppy wanted multiple years
and Mo didn’t want to do that. I’m guessing it was a one-and-one type deal. I would be just as happy if he goes away since his infield butchery really limits our flexibility at short.
by Red in Chicago on
Nov 14, 2008 11:14 AM EST
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Jason Donald
Minor league SS for the Phils. I was looking at his minor league numbers and they are pretty impressive. After a 1000+ abs his line is .296/.384/.458/.842. and his strikeout and walk rates (.197 and .110) are comparable to Colby’s (.200 and .111), albeit he hasn’t yet played above AA. I am not for sure how strong his defense is. He is blocked at SS by Rollins, and now the Phils are trying to find him a new position. I’m no scouting wiz or anything and I didn’t see Donald on any top prospect list going back a few years, but does anyone know if the kid is legit? Or, does anyone know if there is a big mark against him?
The Phils were supposedly in the Matt Holliday mix for a while, and I’ve seen Donald’s name w/ their top prospect Carrasco as part of Philadelphia’s package to acquire Matt. Shouldn’t the Cardinals be able to pull a similar package from Philadelphia if we offered up Luddy, given the fact that he’s A. infinitely cheaper than Holliday B he’d be under team control for 3 more years as opposed to just 2009 and C. put up comparable (if not better) offensive numbers.
I wonder if something like Ryan Ludwick, Allen Craig and maybe another piece (Boggs?) would work for Donald, Joe Blanton and Jayson Werth?
Give up: A cost controlled top 5-10 masher who, because of injuries, completed his first full season as a 30-year old. In a hitters park like Philly’s, he’d kill. Likely due 4-5 Mil in arbitration. Two top organizational prospects, one (Craig) who is blocked by other players at 3b.
Get: Young SS with a good bat, could be a part of our middle infield for a long time. 29-year old outfielder with a good bat and +speed and defense. Arbitration eligible, 3-4 Mil? I don’t know what he’s due. Back rotation starter, innings eater (205/year for 4 years) and is also arbitration eligible (he made 3.7 mil this year). I am not huge on Blanton, but he is equal to/better than Looper and likely cheaper, at least for this year.
I don’t know, this whole offer could be absurd, but I couldn’t help myself. Feel free to vivisect it as you wish. I’m only trying to get the feel of things around here.
by lunchboxbomb on
Nov 14, 2008 2:40 PM EST
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Donald is the guy I would like the Cards to target as well
1) Blocked by Rollins
2) Glove is good enough for SS (think Jed Lowrie)
3) Phils need 3B
4) Anderson and Freese for Donald.
by indakind on
Nov 18, 2008 3:28 PM EST
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Peavy Trade Idea
We really don’t have much to offer in terms of a young starter the Padres want in a deal, which is why it is unrealistic to expect to pull it off. But Ryan Ludwick seems to have been shopped aggressively this offseason, being mentioned in two trade rumors already. I think we aren’t asking for enough for Ludwick, so maybe Mo values him less than I do, but here’s what I propose.
Tampa Bay receives OF Ryan Ludwick
The Rays have a need for a power bat in RF, but though they won the AL Pennant they are still in a small market and will appreciate Luddy’s affordable contract.
San Diego receives P Wade Davis, SS Reid Brignac, OF Daryl Jones and P Mitch Boggs.
San Diego gets the young pitcher they desire and a few decent prospects to boot. I consider this offer to be way better than the one the Braves are said to be waiting on. I suppose you could flip Davis and Sonnanstine if you think the Padres would take less upside for someone who could succeed there right now, but Davis might really intrigue them more.
St. Louis receives:
P Jake Peavy
So. 1. Would the Rays give up Davis and Brignac for Ludwick? I think so, given they’ve both lost a little stature this past year.
2. Would the Padres consider this deal over the one the Braves are offering? I think yes, they are getting the pitching prospect the Braves are not offering, plus a pitcher in Boggs who I think can be as good as either Morton or Reyes in time and could eat innings for a youthful staff; then there’s Jones who offers mostly everything Hernandez does except less arm strength and more power.
3. Would we give up a quality OF who might regress to an .850 OPS instead of .900+, an emerging OF prospect who’s athleticism is a good fit in San Diego’s spacious outfield and is in somewhat of a logjammed OF picture in St. Louis, and a durable, reliable starter who is nearly major league ready, for an ace who will be cheap for this year, then expensive when Glaus comes off the books? What is Ryan Ludwick’s true trade value(is the alleged Matt Holliday near-deal any indication)?
Thoughts?
by mateodh on
Nov 14, 2008 3:02 PM EST
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Actually...
I bet we could get Ben Zobrist in that trade too….
by mateodh on
Nov 14, 2008 3:07 PM EST
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I like this
I agree that it wouldn’t seem like much of a downgrade for the Pads from what they’d been asking for from ATl…except to the notable omission of Escobar, which had the double value of making Greene expendable.
by siddfynch on
Nov 14, 2008 9:43 PM EST
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If they want to cut payroll...
They’re not going to contend, which alone makes Greene expendable. I think the Braves also included Escobar only so they wouldn’t have to part with the elite pitching prospect the Padres wanted, Tommy Hanson. So with Davis in there I think they get more of the package they’re looking for.
by mateodh on
Nov 14, 2008 10:47 PM EST
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Braves are done with Peavy talks
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/11/braves-moving-o.html
I hope this means we now go after Escobar or Johnson.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 14, 2008 5:28 PM EST
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Whats your beef Johnson?
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 14, 2008 10:53 PM EST
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dammit is right...
WITH Johnson
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 14, 2008 10:54 PM EST
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Johnson
is a below average defender while Escobar is pretty stinkin’ good in the field and at the plate.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 15, 2008 1:20 AM EST
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I agree that Escobar is better
but so does everyone else, so it will take more to get him.
Wouldn’t you at least agree that Johnson is better than any FA 2B thats available?
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 15, 2008 10:11 AM EST
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Yes
there are a lot of things to like about Johnson: age, cost controlled, hits LHPs well, good offensive skills. Mostly I think Escobar is a far more complete player at a more important position where we have a more critical need. Any discussion of Ludwick for Johnson in any combination that doesn’t involve premium young pitching coming to StL is just ridiculous though.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 15, 2008 10:18 AM EST
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Again I agree
and I would hope that the Ludwick for Johnson talk was all BS. Ludwick for Escobar I could see, but we could get Johnson for less.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 15, 2008 10:35 AM EST
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yeah, i agree what johnson is better than most Free agents,
i just think that if we would be giving up ludwick almost straight up for someone, i would prefer escobar. johnson’s fine, but if the braves are willing to part with either for ludwick, then i say we go after escobar.
by dunc4life on
Nov 15, 2008 1:10 PM EST
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Erick Aybar anyone?
Aparentally the Angels would be willing to shop him for the right offer. I really like his skill set; he has great speed, very good defensively and he has a ton of upside. He is also is a switch hitter. I think that he would fit beautifully into are lineup, batting 9th where his base-stealing speed would be more appreciated, because we want high OBP and not necessarily great speed in the 1 and 2 spots because of Albert. He would definitely be a upgrade over Caesar with the potential to be really good and he would be cost controlled for 4 more years. The only question is what would we have to give the Angels to get him. I think that trading Freese and Boggs would be enough to get him. The Angels are still looking for a long term 3B man and Freese is just about major league ready. The would also like the depth that Boggs would provide to there rotation.
Any thoughts people?
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 14, 2008 8:08 PM EST
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I like him a lot
He has a great arm and range. He still makes some mental mistakes, but I think he would provide plus defense.
by OCCardsFan on
Nov 17, 2008 9:37 AM EST
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my idea
crosby
eric patterson
cash
for
freese or craig
2n d tier prospect
A’s pay 50% of crosby 5mill
crosby isnt all that great but a change of scenery would help. plus less pressure in a better stl lineup. throw him in the 8 spot…he plays good defense, tons of doubles
patterson 2b type, his speed and versatility probably fit better in the NL
Cards trade from their 3b depth
by Asfan4ever723 on
Nov 14, 2008 9:08 PM EST
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less pressure?
than the A’s? man, i didn’t know that that existed!
by dunc4life on
Nov 14, 2008 10:37 PM EST
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Eric Patterson, I'd roll the dice on.
Bobby Crosby is made of glass……
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Nov 14, 2008 10:44 PM EST
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Bobby Crosby
simply isn’t a good player. Pass.
by azruavatar on
Nov 15, 2008 8:19 AM EST
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+1
i would say he was an wwful choice for Rookie of the Year, but he wasn’t in much of a rookie class. Daniel Cabrera had a 5.00 era and finished third.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on
Nov 15, 2008 7:58 PM EST
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I would rather get Mark Ellis in that deal
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 14, 2008 11:11 PM EST
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you're not the only one.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Nov 15, 2008 1:57 AM EST
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every player, except
ap is a risk for next year one way or another, which is why i’d make next year’s gamble k greene. some combo of low level prospects +/- a few bucks get’s it done. more inclined to do this than take a pitching risk. overall problem is paying carp and trying to cover his absence is going to be the same as mulder and juan gone past year. tough to go only with expensive multi-year risks like furcal.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on
Nov 14, 2008 10:52 PM EST
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i assume that by AP you mean pujols?
how is he not a risk? i know the surgery he had was minor, but for all we know, something will go wrong and he will not be himself next year.
by dunc4life on
Nov 15, 2008 1:11 PM EST
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Would anyone consider Randy Johnson being signed as a closer?
We would only need to sign him for 1 year unlike any other closer out there, which would allow for Perez and Motte to take over in 2010. He has some track record as a closer, and the fact that he would only throw 60-70 innings would probably allow him to throw harder than he has in a few years.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 15, 2008 2:28 AM EST
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when was RJ a closer?
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on
Nov 15, 2008 3:29 AM EST
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1996 - 6 relief app with one 4 inning save
The only time he has been a relief pitcher was during August 1996 when he came back from a two plus month stint on the DL. He was throwing long relief , 2 innings or more.
Also had one relief appearance in 2001, 1997, 1993 & 1989. His other career save was in 1993. he threw one and a third two days after throwing 8 innings. You could say he’s due for a breakout year as a closer.
by ubeddie on
Nov 15, 2008 2:11 PM EST
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Most of those
were stretch run type situations where he had pitched a couple of days earlier and came out of the bullpen in relief because he wasn’t going to get another start.
He wants to get to 300 wins and have a shot at 5000 K’s so I doubt he’d let someone use him as a closer.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 17, 2008 9:12 AM EST
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RJ
wants to get to 300 wins. I don’t think he would be at all enthused about closing.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 15, 2008 10:19 AM EST
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wants to get to 5000 strike outs too
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 15, 2008 2:44 PM EST
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I'm big on RJ
but not as a closer. Plus I don’t think he’d even consider that. Like giveml said, he’s 5 away from 300 wins. Not to mention 211 away from 5000 K’s. According to today’s Post, there is a hint of mutual interest between the Cards and RJ. However I’m sure the same could be said for about 10 other teams. Either way we’ll have to sit and wait on this one until AZ declines arbitration.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 15, 2008 10:39 AM EST
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i don't care about losing our 2nd round pick
if that means we could sign him quickly
by dunc4life on
Nov 15, 2008 1:12 PM EST
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FIVE?!?
Derek Lowe wants FIVE freaking years?!?
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on
Nov 15, 2008 10:12 AM EST
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Do you blame him?
I’m sure he’ll get at least 4. I think he’s looking for his final contract. And I bet the Yanks or BoSox give it to him.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on
Nov 15, 2008 10:41 AM EST
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I like a Randy Johnson acquisition on
several levels. First, it takes pressure off of JMo to do some deal, any deal, just to quiet the howling of the media and fans. He’d take a one year contract so if RJ breaks down, we’re only on the hook for 1 year. He’s not a Type A so no acquisition cost other than the $10 mill contact. DeWallet can eat that. It calms down the screams of LaDuncan for more proven veterans. When was the last time the Cards had a #4 starter the level of an aging RJ? I can’t remember when. He’s a lefty starter and we don’t have any of those. It still leaves money in the budget to get a solid loogy.
…. then we pool together our trading chips and shop for a solid, young MI prospect.
by jjray on
Nov 15, 2008 10:59 AM EST
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My new take on who the Cardinals should go after (version 11/15/08 AM)
I’ll start with the least imposing acquisitions and gain steam.
1) I’d offer arby to Braden Looper and pay him (around $6-8 million?)
2) After a couple of months of searching for a job, without success, Edgar Renteria signs for 2 years and $11 million to start at 2nd base and back up SS. Kennedy is still the 2B backup/starter when the everyday SS starts.
3) I’d offer Randy Johnson a 1-year $6.5 million deal with an incentive of $1 million more for making either 30 starts or 200 IP.
4a) Jeremy Affeldt was my top FA Loogy pick until I looked at his stats and $. He made $3 million last year and was worse against lefties than righties. He only had a 1.33 or so WHIP for the last two years (which were EASILY the best of his career.) I’ll pass. I’d offer Will Ohman 3 years worth $7.5 to 9 million.
4b) That being said about Affeldt before, I think he is a lefty that could eat a ton of innings for us next year. If he would take a 2 year deal worth $4 million, I’d sign him. If not, no deal…I’ll stick with TJ or Manning or Flores. I think those are three OK options to start with in spring training for your 2nd Loogy.
5) Trade Rick Ankiel (after all that has been said about Ludwick and Ankiel on here this off season, I think this is the best bet) to Atlanta for your starting SS, Yunel Escobar. If it takes a couple of throw ins to get it done (Duncan or Stavinoha or Jay or Mortenson or Thompson or Pineiro (eating contract) or Parisi, etc.) then do it.
6) Sign Kerry Wood to a 2-year, $11 million contract.
That’s my take. (Backup plans would include Jamie Moyer for a year, Jon Garland for 2, Beimel, Mota, Izzy, Miles, Eck, Iz2)
by stlfan on
Nov 15, 2008 11:09 AM EST
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Awesome...
I totally did this write up before reading this.
by stlfan on
Nov 15, 2008 11:17 AM EST
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and more than 2 yrs
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 15, 2008 2:48 PM EST
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The last two years...
He made $5.95 Million TOTAL. I think that an increase to 5.5 per season would be just fine…maybe $12 million over 2 years would be better. I dunno…that’s more than he was making for two years’ time, in each season. What were you two thinking?
by stlfan on
Nov 15, 2008 4:36 PM EST
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i agree an increase of 5.5 mil is nice,
but in the eyes of an injury-prone pitcher who can at times be the most dominant in the league, he should be looking to cash in. he could easily get 8 mil. a season.
by dunc4life on
Nov 15, 2008 5:41 PM EST
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I think
the rangers will give him close to 3yr/$30M. no real basis for that other than a gut feel, but I would think it’s minimum of $8M per and probably a 3 yr deal
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 15, 2008 10:17 PM EST
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Yeah
closers seem to be really overrated nowadays and even an average close like Wood who will give you some saves and strikeout a lot will get a big deal.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 15, 2008 10:21 PM EST
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that, as well as
the whole “Texas” thing. the promotional opportuinites of having him do appearances or commercials with Nolan Ryan.
I know teams don’t sign players just for promotions – but that would be an added bonus for the rangers.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 15, 2008 11:16 PM EST
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Wood
He’ll get 3-4Y and $30-$40M from somebody. If he was going to sign for those peanuts the Cubs would have kept him instead of trading for Gregg.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 17, 2008 9:14 AM EST
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If you sign a closer to two or more years, where do we trade motte and perez?
Kind of like your dad buying you a year-long bus pass a month before your 16th birrthday. Sends a message.
by tom s. on
Nov 18, 2008 3:25 AM EST
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Great Analogy
That one gave me a good laugh.
by wizardofozzie on
Nov 19, 2008 1:37 AM EST
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more like
dad buys you a porsche to drive on sundays, to go with the corvette and mustang that you drive to school on alternating mornings…
Seriously, it hurts nothing to add talent unless the price is high. Mo shouldn’t be looking at $15M/year closing talent, but I’d be fine if he could get someone like uehara to come in at 3/12 and give him a shot (maybe offer to have him close the first year with a shot at starting the next?)
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on
Nov 20, 2008 12:01 AM EST
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Revisiting Peavy
I simply can’t shake the thought of having Peavy in the rotation. I really think this would be the differance maker the Cardinals need to put them over the top. We can talk all we want about Kelly Johnson, Yunel Escobar, Matt Holiday, and Edgar Renteria. We can talk about the possibily of Rasmus emerging as the everyday centerfielder. But no matter how you cut it…if you replace Joel Pineiro’s 6-8 wins with 16-20 wins from Peavy the division is ours for the next season and we’d have to be considered the favorite in the national league. Meanwhile if the Cubs get him…we are done, as an already good team will get even better. If we flip Rasmus to San Diego he’ll struggle to put up serious offensive numbers and this will look like a steal. Maybe I’m dilusional, but it just seems like a perfect match.
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on
Nov 15, 2008 3:36 PM EST
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i agree on getting Peavy
but not sure for who. My thing is don’t rely on carp and go get a serious top of the rotation guy. or a serious #2 for AW, nto sure I’m sold on loshe.
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on
Nov 15, 2008 3:48 PM EST
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I agree
The bad thing is I think Mo/DeWitt are probably gun shy about trading top prospects for a starter after the Mulder fiasco. True there are real concerns about Peavy’s health over the long haul….but this is an opportunity that I think is just too good to pass by. I am in the minority but I have big doubts that Rasmus is going to live up to the huge hype and become this All-Star player that everyone thinks he will be. If I were Mo I would be trying to get Peavy as hard as I can.
Another side of me is telling me the Cardinals are not in “win now mode” and since they got their championship in 06 and that they are just concerned about making some $$ now and are not concerned about putting the best team they can on the field to get back to October anytime soon. I truely believe that DeWitt is satisifed for winning a championship two years ago and they expect the fans to feel the same way for a few more years. They think the All-Star game in St. Louis this season will be big enough for the fans. No need to do more right now….sorry that’s the feeling I get.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on
Nov 15, 2008 4:01 PM EST
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i agree with you on both areas
Rasums has to prove it before i annoint him anything..I think we have several of..the next whoever that have not done well..cough harold miner, cough JD Drew great player, but mantle he’s not.
I don’t think that are nec. saying the ASG will be enough, but i think they will as we have seen about the last 5 yrs mentioned in every big name, and do nothing and obtain some retread as a “project”…We all know ow that goes.. Loshe not too bad, Kip wells likeable but not too good.
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on
Nov 15, 2008 7:34 PM EST
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IMO
After we sign the (2) FA Loogy’s, address SS, 2B, and settle the Closer spot. Depending on what we have to give up to fix the MI – then we revisit Peavy. I get the feeling he is not going anywhere soon. The cubs don’t seem movitated to act, and the Braves appear to have backed off the high demands.
Jake has control as to where he goes, so even if the Pads try talking to the Yankes and Angels there is a strong possibility he declines the move.
I say have patience, wait it out and see what we have left in January, and then maybe find a 3rd team to get involved. Weight that option against the other available options availabe at that time.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 15, 2008 10:30 PM EST
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other available options availabe
Wow, I am an amazing wordsmith. public education at it’s finest.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on
Nov 15, 2008 11:20 PM EST
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It's not a bad thing...
The Cardinals are attempting to rebuild after more than a decade’s worth of bad drafting and trading away prospects, all the while staying competitive. 2007 was a disaster created by the team not cleaning out the roster after the 2006 Series win, and Mo did a nice job this year of taking care of a couple potentially bad situations (Rolan, Edmonds) and turning them into some value (Gaus, Freese), while dealing with a payroll with a lot of money locked up in guys who couldn’t play. The key to last off-season was allowing the question-marks to play to figure out exactly what they had. The key to this off-season is filling the big holes they found, which means lefty relief and middle infield. Help isn’t coming anytime soon from the system in those two areas, so the absolutely need to address them in the FA market or through trades.
Peavy scares me…a lot. The aforementioned Mark Mulder lesson is a good one to take in this instance, because the same warning signs that were there for Mulder are there for Peavy. The biggest lesson was that you don’t discount what you have (Haren) for something shiny (Mulder). Besides, as Goold pointed out, the Padres aren’t interested in the Cardinals’ outfielders, including Rasmus. Any trade for Peavy is going to have to start with high-quality, young starting pitching that is either close to MLB-ready or already broken in. That’s why the Padres kept asking for the Braves’ Tommy Hanson, and that’s why the talks broke down because the Braves refused to include him (the Cards aren’t the only guys protecting their top prospects). The Cardinals do not have a Hanson, unless we’re talking about Adam Wainwright.
Also, trading for Peavy has the same problems with trading for Holliday—it’s a bad use of the Cardinals’ trade assets because it does not address any of their needs, which they still have to fill. The Cardinals do not need an ace—they already have one in Wainwright, who is younger, under contract, and has had no arm trouble. He’s the Cardinals’ version of Tim Lincecum (who, incidentally, plays for a team that knows a thing or two about pursing shiny veteran pitchers). The rotation is not what lost 30 some-odd games this season; it was the bullpen that couldn’t hold a lead. Starting pitching is a secondary need; you don’t blow your best assets on secondary needs.
What the Cardinals do need is a middle-to-back rotation starter to replace Looper (and be an upgrade), preferably a workhorse in case Wellemeyer goes down again. Jon Garland or Paul Byrd would be good options, while Odalis Perez could provide a solid left-hander that the Cardinals haven’t had since Mulder went bust. All three are free agents, and could be had for less money than Peavy without giving away any talent.
The Cardinals aren’t the Yankees; they’re smarter than that. For this past decade, the Yankees threw all kinds of money at the top SP free agents, only to wind up with a rotation that was constantly in hoc. This is a great run down of the Yanks’ rotation follies of the past several seasons, a good lesson for any fantasy GM.
by Forsch31 on
Nov 16, 2008 11:00 PM EST
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i agree, except that if Waino is
the card’s lincecum,
A: I would crap my pants and
B: we would have been in the playoffs last season.
by dunc4life on
Nov 16, 2008 11:02 PM EST
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With Wainwright...
…I’m talking about this upcoming season. Given how Wagonmaker pitched before and after his injury, he probably would have been in contention with Lincecum for the NL Cy Young. But I seriously doubt the bullpen would have allowed St. Louis to make the playoffs, even if Wainwright was healthy the whole season. Luckily, Adam’s injury was a freak thing that has nothing to do with his shoulder or elbow.
I also brought up Lincecum because there were a lot of rumors last years of the Giants thinking of trading him; i.e., not appreciating what you have while window shopping for something shiny.
by Forsch31 on
Nov 16, 2008 11:11 PM EST
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Good points
Don’t do “something” for the sake of doing something. Be very targeted in it. And I agree that the middle infield and bullpen (particularly left side) are where the Cardinals should be looking, with rotation depth as a 3rd priority.
by Merry CRasmus on
Nov 17, 2008 4:44 PM EST
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It would cost us as much to get a FA starter..
and we would still get to keep our prospects. He is going to make a ton of money and I think if we are going to do anything big to the starting rotation like that we should sign a big name from the free agent pool and keep our good prospects.
by wizardofozzie on
Nov 15, 2008 9:12 PM EST
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Just Heard
If the Cubs don’t get Peavy or resign Dempster, they want Randy. Boo!!!!!!! I want Randy in a Cards uni.
I am still in awe at the their extreme desperateness to create the perfect team.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on
Nov 15, 2008 7:59 PM EST
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Any chane of resigning Villone?
If you look at his last 3 seasons lefties have hit 194/.296/.329 against him. Also the combination of Ryan Howard and Adam Dunn hit a combined 1 for 12 against him with 7 K’s. The reason that his numbers looked so bad this year is the fact that he had to face a lot more righties than a typical LOOGY would. I think because of last years numbers we might be able to keep him for next to nothing. If we do that we would also have to sign a guy like Affeldt who can pitch to righties and lefties so we don’t end up overusing Villone like we did this year.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 15, 2008 9:19 PM EST
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Haha
does he torment you that much?
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on
Nov 17, 2008 7:31 PM EST
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Villone makes babies cry everytime he gives up a walk
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on
Nov 18, 2008 3:15 PM EST
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Why torment me with Villone?
37 BBs in 50 IPs (I couldn’t find platoon split for the season only for career) and leftys OPS’d at 0.701. I guess the BBs bother me more than anything. Ditto for Flo’s BBs (20 in 25.2 IPs). Can we please bring in a LOOGY that will at least challenge the hitters.
I do agree with you that TLR was forced to put him in some very non-LOOGY situations. Maybe those outings affected his whole season. But I recall looking at the game logs and seeing that he was pretty much equally bad throughout the season.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on
Nov 16, 2008 2:29 AM EST
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Courtesy of the friendly folks at baseball-reference.com
vs RH: .300/.421/.440/.861 at least he mostly keeps the ball in the park
vs. LH: .176/.311/.318/.629
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 16, 2008 12:04 PM EST
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thx
I had looked at BR for season platoon splits, but I couldn’t find them. I think I need to become more familiar with all the stat sites. :) I love VEB.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on
Nov 16, 2008 2:13 PM EST
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Just go to the home page
click on the team site, click on the player name and near the top of the player page there will be boxes for both splits and gamelogs. You can pick individual years or career numbers.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 16, 2008 6:37 PM EST
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villone vs. dunn
don’t forget he walked dunn three times…
JUN10 @ CIN – Villone walks Dunn on 5 pitches to lead off the 6th. Dunn doesn’t score and St. Louis wins game 7-2. This one was rather insignificant.
Its the other two that really stick out in my mind…
SEP1 @ ARI – Villone walks Dunn on four pitches to lead off the bottom of the 6th. St. Louis lead 6-4 at the time. Dunn was the only batter Villone faced before McClellan came in and gave up the game-tying home run to Reynolds on his first pitch. St. Louis never regained the lead.
SEP3 @ ARI – Villone enters the game in the bottom of the 7th with two outs, runners at 1st and 3rd, once again to face Dunn and Dunn only. Villone throws a wild pitch, scoring the run from 3rd and cutting St. Louis’ lead to one (while also advancing the tying run to scoring position). He eventually walks Dunn, putting the go-ahead run on base. St. Louis goes on to lose the game by one run in the 9th.
As totalloser pointed out already, 37 BBs in 50 IPs… 21 vs RHB (2 IBB) in 121 PA, 16 vs LHB in 108 PA. (Splits found here)
vs LHB that’s a BB once every 6.75 PA. And his two HBP came against LHP also.
No to Villone in 09.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on
Nov 16, 2008 3:43 PM EST
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Forget the numbers did you watch the games?
My heart sank every time one of our lefties came in.
by RayMonD! on
Nov 16, 2008 12:16 AM EST
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Villone looked pretty good in comparison to Flores though
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 16, 2008 12:46 AM EST
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in comparison to flores
haha villone wasnt too bad i didn’t think and without looking at numbers i thought villone started to get overused, like most of the pen. To help the pen the need to get some starters who can go deeper than 5 innings..I hope flores gets limited, maybe his younger bro beats him out in ST?
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on
Nov 16, 2008 2:21 AM EST
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Peavy 3-way deal?
So awhile back on this site, I argued that Cards would better suitors for Peavy than the Braves or Cubs, because the Braves wouldn’t be interested enough and teh Cubs didn;t have enough to offer. So far, things haven’t panned out for Peavy yet, though not always for the reasons I thought. But here we are, Nov 16, and both the Cubs and Bravos seem to have chilled, and Peavy is still available.
Why not deal Freese/Craig and Ludwick to a team that has a need for such a pair? In exchange, they send a player/s to SD, and we get Peavy?
White Sox – We send Freese, Ludwick, and Brian Anderson, they send Danks and Aaron Poreda to SD, and we get Peavy. Chicago can deal Dye. Maybe we angle for Matt Thornton, too.
Giants – We send Freese, Ludwick, they send Jonathan Sanchez and one of their good prospects (Nick Noonan, Tim Alderson) to SD, and we get Peavy.
Braves – We send Ludwick and Freese to ATL, they send Kelly Johnson, Brandon Jones, and Jojo Reyes to SD, and we get Peavy. As part of the deal, we also ship Anderson to SD and take Khalil Greene back.
In all three of these, I think what we are sending away is comparable to what the recipient is giving to SD. Doe SD get enough in return?
by siddfynch on
Nov 16, 2008 12:46 PM EST
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i would love to get matt thorton
what is his contract situation i wonder
i would not mind being in on peavy if we can keep colby, todd, and perez….so a three team deal may actually be our best bet(i think the gigantes are the best bet for this since the fathers are looking for young pitching mainly)
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 16, 2008 1:53 PM EST
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thorton's contract
1.3 million next year…club option in ’10 and ’11 for 2.5 mil and 3 mil respectively
not bad, not bad at all(i doubt they would give him up)
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 16, 2008 2:00 PM EST
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I would do
Ludwick for Thorton and Vasquez. Have them eat some of Vasquez’s contract because we are giving them a cost controlled middle of the order type guy and we are only getting a reliever and a 3-4 starter. Our offense wouldn’t dip that much, assuming that Colby and Mather + the expected improvement of Ankiel and MIF over this year, and our pitching would be way better. We would be getting one of the best left-handed relievers in the game adding to what already looks like a very deep bullpen, and getting an innings eating starter with the potential to be an #2 or #3. Then we would sign a LOOGY in FA and trade for a MIF, I like Greene of the Padres. All of our needs would be filled and we would have enough coin left for TLR to take a look at a guy to protect Pujols, hopefully not though because I wouldn’t want to get stuck with Adam Dunn or Pat Burrell for 3-4 years .
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 16, 2008 2:48 PM EST
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that looks great
but i don’t know why the white sox would do that…they would have to trade dye first and even then would probably want more than just luddy for thorton and vazquez if they are gonna pay for some of javier’s contract
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 16, 2008 4:19 PM EST
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i don't know
They already have a pretty good bullpen and Ozzie doesn’t like vasquez very much. He views him as a back of the rotation starter. Plus I’m sure that he would love the payroll flexibility of Luddy.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 16, 2008 5:31 PM EST
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I have to follow the White Sox for marital harmony.....
No way no how can you all have Matt Thornton. He’s awesome. The White Sox need him and by all accounts want to keep him. They tend to prefer to keep their young arms anyway. I doubt he’s on the market.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Nov 16, 2008 10:18 PM EST
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Not a fan...
…probably ‘cause I’m not a fan of Peavy or Greene. The Cardinals would give up Ludwick, Freese, and Anderson; while the Cardinals get Peavy (who just smacks of another Mark Mulder to me, thanks to his elbow trouble this season) and Khali Greene, who I really don’t see recovering that much from last season’s dismal performance. Anderson the Cards could probably spare, thanks to Molina, but Freese is an extremely underrated 3B prospect who, unlike Brett Wallace, will stick at his position. He’s a guy I’d keep for now, especially with Gaus’ contract ending this upcoming season. Peddle Allen Craig instead.
Honestly, the best thing that came out of the Braves-Padres’ talks crashing is that Yunel Escobar or Kelly Johnson is now available for the Cardinals to trade. I would not give up Ludwick for Johnson, but I’d give him up for Escobar plus a player or prospect in a heartbeat.
On Peavy…the desperation of the Padres have in trading him before the season starts speaks to something more than just salary clearance. Personally, I think they want get some value for him before he begins to slide physically this season.
by Forsch31 on
Nov 16, 2008 10:16 PM EST
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i don't know if ATL
would go for Ludwick for Escobar + prospect. Maybe if we threw in Allen Craig, we could get Escobar + a prospect/reliever, but not if it’s only Ludwick
by dunc4life on
Nov 16, 2008 11:04 PM EST
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Sorry...
I mean Ludwick plus another player or prospect for Escobar alone. The Braves would be creating a hole at short, so we would have to overpay a bit to get him. Escobar is worth that overpayment.
Ludwick, Thompson, and one of Worrell, Craig, or Boggs.
by Forsch31 on
Nov 16, 2008 11:15 PM EST
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Who's going to start in the outfield against lefties...
if we trade Ludwick, and are we going to have a decent chance to go at or over .500 in those 60 or so games?
by Merry CRasmus on
Nov 17, 2008 4:50 PM EST
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Joe Mather would start against lefties and righties most likely.
I’m not sure that Mather over a full season would be much worse than Ludwick if he regresses to a 25-30 HR level. Ankiel played against lefties pretty much all year when he was healthy, and Barton could easily platoon with Schumaker against them. If Rasmus is up, you could use Mather against lefties for Ankiel and use the Barton Scumaker platoon in LF.
While I wouldn’t trade Ludwick for anything, I certainly think that adding a player with the youth and talent of Escobar is worth exploring. He solves a ton of issues in the near future in terms of middle infield talent and cost controlled players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 18, 2008 9:43 AM EST
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That's who I figure too
I don’t know that you will get an OPS+ over 100 from the 3 of them combined. It would probably be close. So I think we’d be hard pressed to go 30-30 against lefthanded starters, assuming 60 games.
I’d be all over Escobar if you can get him for Ankiel ++. That may not be realistic – since they’d have little use for Anderson I don’t know which prospects you could line up behind him. Boggs and Jones?
I don’t think I could pull the trigger for Ludwick. I know he has a reverse split against lefties, but he is still my #1 choice in the outfield against that side. By a decent margin too with all except Mather. I’d like to have him and Mather out there vs. the lefties.
by Merry CRasmus on
Nov 18, 2008 10:28 PM EST
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I think that's too much for us to give up for one guy
You have to look at where the Braves currently are, and where they’re at organizationally. If they’re looking to compete next year, they may be in the market for one of the free agent SS (Furcal) for next year or go with a stopgap type of player and improve one of their other positions where they don’t have solid players (RF, CF, LF, 1B).
If they want to compete next year, then the trade that makes the most sense for them (when trading with the Cardinals) would be to make a move for Rick Ankiel by trading Escobar or Kelly Johnson. They could replace either in the FA market and they have a SS at AAA coming off a horrible year (Lillibridge) who was considered a good prospect at one time, and Martin Prado, who could replace Johnson at 2B. I also think that they’d have to look at adding Adam Dunn as a free agent, giving them an outfield of Dunn, Ankiel, and Francoeur, and a very healthy lineup against righties with some good platoon candidates (Diaz, Prado, Norton) in case they need a boost against lefties. Adding Ankiel and Dunn could make them a very formidable offensive team next year, especially if you bat Chipper 3rd, Dunn 4th, Kotch 5th and Ankiel 6th. Prado would lead off and McCann would bat 2nd.
If I was Mo, I’d offer them Ankiel and Boggs for Prado and Escobar. If that failed I’d probably offer Ankiel for Escobar straight up. The first trade fills some needs in the middle infield with a young infielder who can play a lot of positions, mainly 2B, and a starting SS.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 18, 2008 10:04 AM EST
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I don't like getting Peavy either
He costs too much and definitely has health questions. But I really like Kahlil Greene. For one he is a very good defender, almost as good as Iz. This years terrible season seems flukish considering he was a very consistent hitter before this year with a 4 straight seasons of 15 or more homers. He also hit 27 homers and 44 doubles in the worst hitters park in baseball in 2007. Because of the fact that he did have such a bad year and that they are looking to dump salary we could get him for anyone really. Anderson, Boggs, Craig are pretty solid prospects but Allen and Anderson really have no future in STL. I am sure that the Padres would happily take either of them, they might even give us a low level prospect in return. I think that Kahlil Greene is a risk we definitely should take. If he has another terrible offensive season then we are only stuck with him for one year and he still would be an upgrade from Iz offensively with comparable defense. If he returns back to his 07 form than we have a 25 homer guy who we got for nothing.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 16, 2008 11:11 PM EST
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Anderson...
…does have a future. From my perspective, he’s clearly on the Jorge Posada career track (back up for a season or two behind the entrenched starter, and then take over).
by Forsch31 on
Nov 16, 2008 11:17 PM EST
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Meant that...
as an answer to vivaelpujols.
by Forsch31 on
Nov 16, 2008 11:19 PM EST
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Yadi is the long term starter
He is only 4 years older than Anderson and he has already proven himself to be a great defender and and a good contact hitter. Plus he is under contract until 2011 with an extension for 2012.
by vivaelpujols on
Nov 17, 2008 12:12 AM EST
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Orlando Hudson
Am I the only one who sees in Hudson the spectre of another Junior Spivey — i.e., an over-30 second baseman with an All-Star appearance on his resume & some decent pop in his bat, but who is now going down the road of chronic injury and a decline in skills? I’m not saying Hudson has reached the low point that Spivey had by the time we took a flier on him in the spring of ’06 — just noting the possible similarities, and wondering if anyone else shares my fear that if we spend considerable money on Hudson he will be a bad investment…
by DCRedbird on
Nov 17, 2008 12:28 PM EST
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I am definitely against Hudson
but Junior Spivey? I get your drift though and I think there is a definite possibility of decline/fragility.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Nov 17, 2008 6:27 PM EST
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Missed out on Affeldt
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on
Nov 17, 2008 2:50 PM EST
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That's probably what Ohman will cost
and Affeldt is more than a LOOGY, so I think that’s probably close to market value
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 17, 2008 4:11 PM EST
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It’s less than what we paid for looper to be a setup man.. to handle the same job.
by Birds on the Matt on
Nov 17, 2008 4:39 PM EST
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i don't think so
if anything, that seems underpaid. think of it this way: we would have a lefty who could be a LOOGY, setup man, long reliever, or starter. Tony would pee himself if Mo signed him. His market value is probably close to 2/10.
by dunc4life on
Nov 17, 2008 5:29 PM EST
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The Cubs are going for broke to get to the World Series
Just checked MLB trade rumors and it looks like they are close to re-signing Dempster and are still looking to get Peavy or sign Randy Johnson. PLUS they "could’ be in the mix for Furcal.
Looks like they are trying to go all out to get to the World Series. It amazes me how they are going to keep adding to payroll and they don’t even have a new owner yet. But I am guessing whoever will own the team won’t really care much about the giant payroll for the first 3-5 years anyways. I’m not sure if their spending is now a product of desperation to finally get to a World Series or spending because they know they won’t have to worry about paying for these deals because new ownership will take over and they will put these contracts in their lap. Kind of like using your parent’s credit card and not having to worry about paying the debt because you know in the end you won’t be responsible for it.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on
Nov 18, 2008 12:37 PM EST
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i really don't see how they get peavy
if they do, and Mo doesn’t at least talk to towers again…i will be highly upset…there is no way they can offer a better package with us even if we don’t include rasmus, todd, or perez….they traded away their best pitching prospect for gregg…we cannot let them get peavy for that cheap without at least getting in on it as well
by VolsnCards5 on
Nov 18, 2008 2:58 PM EST
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MLBtraderumors
lists some LOOGY trade prospects (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/11/cards-focused-o.html) today. I don’t know where TIm Dierkis gets the info but some of the names are interesting. George Sherrill from the O’s would be a pretty valuable super-LOOGY. If I may rehash my favorite idea of the offseason, why don’t we send a package to the O’s for Sherrill and Brian Roberts? Maybe Perez and Ankiel? Kennedy, Motte and Jones? Shumaker, Kennedy, Boggs? What do others think, and please, if anyone can tell me for sure that Roberts is not available I could stop wasting so much time daydreaming.
by BustaCard on
Nov 18, 2008 2:08 PM EST
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I've got an idea for a LOOGY
a guy that has had injury problems but has shown that is short stints he may be able to get MLB hitters out.
And he can’t be worse than some of the options still left.
Mark Mulder – $1 M/1y. Atleast until TJ is back.
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 18, 2008 4:15 PM EST
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Phew
Had me going there for a second.
When is TJ expected to return? I thought it was mid-2009 or something around there…is that about right?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 18, 2008 5:06 PM EST
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Roberts and Sherrill
You would probably have to trade Ludwick and Ankiel to get both of those guys. I mentioned them as a target for Chris Duncan because they had the worst hitting first-baseman in either league this year (Millar), but since Duncan is hurt and doesn’t seem likely to return soon they aren’t probably going to be interested in him now.
The O’s could have dealt Sherrill at the break last year for better than what you’re offering and didn’t. They could have dealt Roberts last offseason to the Cubs for a package similar to the one they sent to Oakland and didn’t, and that’s probably more than what you’re offering.
Any trade involving the O’s this offseason is going to be sending starting pitching prospects their way. They have no pitching at the major league level and very few pitchers at the minor league level. If you emptied the Cardinal farm system of pitchers (Boggs, Mortenson, Todd, Lynn, Salas, Garcia) you might be able to finagle one or both of those players out of them, but in no way would it be worth it to do that.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Nov 18, 2008 5:05 PM EST
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"the break" was before
sherrill put up a 7.27 ERA over the last two months, with just one save and an 8 to 9 BB/K ratio (9.31 ERA if you go back one appearance, to July 29th). not to mention he is arb eligible for the second time, so coming off a 31-save season he’ll probably get 3-5M…
You’d have to be insane to trade anything of value for sherrill right now. He was never all that good to begin with, and now he looks like damaged goods.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

