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Good morning, friends. And how are you today?

You may all remember that last week, we took a vote on a variety of issues facing Cardinal Nation today. Well, the votes are in, they've been counted, and the voice of Viva El Birdos has been heard!

We ended up with 91 total votes. To be honest, there were more votes, but apparently I wasn't clear enough on the formatting. I tried to count the ones that weren't in the comma-delimit format, but only made it through part of them before I just ran out of both energy and time. So 91  votes it is. And here, members of the voting VEB public, are the results:

A. Will Chris Carpenter be healthy enough to contribute in 2009?

  1. Yes- 47 votes
  2. No- 44 votes

And the yesses have it here, by the very slimmest of margins. Chris Carpenter will be healthy enough to make a contribution in 2009, everyone! Hooray!

Personally, I come down on the 'no' side of the equation. I almost think Carp will be healthy, but I also happen to think that the only way you can possibly look at it is to assume that he won't be. If he's healthy, great. But I'm certainly not counting on Carp for anything next season.

B. Which of the following outfielders would you be most willing to trade this offseason?

  1. Rick Ankiel- 29 votes
  2. Skip Schumaker- 56 votes
  3. Ryan Ludwick- 5 votes
  4. Colby Rasmus- 1 vote

I think it's pretty obvious here that we're all coming down squarely in the corner of moving the player that's going to have the least impact on the Cardinals. If you look at it, as the outfielders become less valuable, the more willing we are to move him. That's not surprising, of course, given that we are, in fact, Cardinal fans. I would, however, be interested in knowing the rationale behind those who chose one of the non-Skippy choices. I assume that they were banking on the return value, as well as the various questions attached to each.

Me? I vote Ankiel. He's a nice middle point. He's more valuable than Skip, but less so than Ludwick. He's probably going to get expensive after this season, and he has health concerns. Still, he should bring a solid return from a team with a need for outfield help or left handed power.

C. Who do you want closing games in 2009?

  1. Chris Perez- 72 votes
  2. Jason Motte-  12 votes
  3. Jason Isringhausen- 0 votes
  4. Ryan Franklin- 0 votes
  5. Other- 7 votes

Wow. A landslide victory here for Young Pitcher. I am a little surprised that not even one person gave Izzy a vote for old time's sake. I am not, however, surprised that Franklin didn't get a vote. Franklins for drinking? Awesome. Franklins for closing? No effing way.

D. Felipe Lopez in '09: yea or nay?

  1. Yea- 32 votes
  2. Nay- 59 votes

And the nays have it, by a nearly two to one margin. I'm the Red Baron, and I approve of this result.

E. When should the Cardinals begin talking to Albert Pujols about a contract extension?

  1. Now- 27 votes
  2. After next season- 54 votes
  3. 2010- 10 votes
  4. When he becomes a free agent- 0 votes

This seems to be a pretty balanced, sensible answer to me. One poster did request an additional option; that it should have already been done, but most people are comfortable waiting one more season. Not too many are comfortable waiting any longer than that, though. And no one, I mean no one, is willing to let Albert get his foot out the door. Again, that seems pretty sensible to me.

F. Who is the most attractive lefty relief option on the FA market?

  1. Brian Fuentes- 19 votes
  2. Jeremy Affeldt- 41 votes
  3. Will Ohman- 16 votes
  4. Scott Eyre- 0 votes
  5. Other- 15 votes

It appears we like the upside and potential underratedness of Affeldt, compared to what may very well be an overrated Brian Fuentes. Fuentes will be a Type A free agent, and I'm just not sure if he's worth a first round pick. Affeldt throws harder, might possibly be an option to swing into a starting spot for a turn or two, and won't cost the Cards a pick. Good choice.

G. What should be Mr. Mo's biggest priority this offseason?

  1. Middle Infield- 74 votes
  2. Bullpen- 9 votes
  3. Starting pitching- 7 votes
  4. Impact bat- 2 votes

It appears that we are of one mind on this issue. The impact bat, the rotation, even the bullpen are secondary concerns. The middle infield is the most glaring hole this team has, and we all want to see it filled in, at least a little bit.

H. Who would you like to see succeed Tony La Russa?

  1. Jose Oquendo-  61 votes
  2. Pop Warner- 13 votes
  3. Don Mattingly- 2 votes
  4. Bobby Valentine- 1 vote
  5. Other- 14 votes

Yet another landslide. I'm really not surprised by this one, though. We've all seen Oquendo in a Cardinal uni for so long, it seems like it would be a travesty for him to go anywhere else. Interesting, of course, that we feel that way, when he's on his way to interview for the Mariner's managing gig today.

I was a little surprised that neither Mattingly, who is seen as one of the next guys to get a gig, nor Valentine, who has hinted that he would be interested in coming back to America, interested more people. We are an insular bunch, we Cardinal fans.

Interesting write ins included Jim Edmonds (who I actually think would make a tremendous hitting coach), and the man himself, Mark McGwire. Now  that be a story line.

I. Which of the following minor leaguers is most likely to make a significant contribution to the Cardinals in 2009?

  1. Bryan Anderson- 4 votes
  2. Jess Todd- 18 votes
  3. David Freese- 23 votes
  4. Mitchell Boggs-  46 votes

This one, I'm sure, is a matter of positional opportunity. Both Bryan Anderson and David Freese are blocked at the big league level, and Jess Todd is behind Boggs himself on the depth chart. Hence, Boggs is the man.

I do have a question here. For anyone who voted for Anderson, did you do so on the basis that you think either Yadi will get hurt and Anderson will get a chance or that Bryan will somehow force his way on to the big league club with a briliant spring, or did you vote for Anderson on the basis that you think he'll be traded, thus making a contribution in the form of another player? Just curious.

J. Do you like me?

  1. Yes- 48 votes
  2. No- 3 votes
  3. Maybe- 40 votes

Well, while it is nice to see that the yes's handily outnumber the no's, I obviously didn't learn my lesson from my attempted courtship of Nikki Rush in the fourth grade. You never, ever put a 'Maybe' box on there. That just doesn't do any good! At least force them to say yes or no; you may get lucky and they'll feel bad about hurting your feelings and not answer no. Maybe just gives them a way out. Sigh... First Nikki, now VEB. I just don't know what I'm going to do.

Thank you all so much for participating in the Viva El Birdos voting program. Feel free to discuss the results at length. Oh, and by the way, I don't think I'm going to be doing too many more of these any time soon. Digging through all of those numbers is a pain.

So now we have our official VEB positions figured out. If you're reading this, Mr. Mozeliak, this should give you a pretty good idea of what direction you need to be moving in. Now get cracking.

 

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This was fun...

and I think I agree with the results. I voted differently on a couple, but no biggie. The interesting thing about the Carp vote is I really think his chances of making an impact next year are about 50/50. I presume the optimist of the group took the top 50 and the “play it safe” type took the bottom 50.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 11:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

RE: Which OF should get moved

I voted for Schumaker primarily because of Ankiel’s injury. Ank makes the most sense to move if you can get good value for him. I don’t think that is likely before spring training or during the season.

I want to move Skip before his bubble bursts a little. I think the defensive metrics have been pretty clear that those folks who have been praising his defense may need to watch a little more closely.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 11:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

exactly

I don’t think we’ll get much value from trading Ankiel (unless the gm’s aren’t that intelligent)

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but not full value

of what ankiel is worth. Skip’s value is as high as possible, I believe. Ankiel’s value is low because he is coming off of an injury. Ankiel is more valuable because of his potential, but coming off of injury he will not be at that max value.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

depending on who we're dealing with

one year of a player who could be injured for half the season does not sound that much better than a player who costs much less and is under team control for a while. depends on the team… if it’s a small market team, they’d probably seek out Skip, bigger market would probably prefer Ank.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know of any reason

why Ank would be injured half a season – are you just being pessimistic or did I miss something?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

are you being sarcastic?

or am I missing something?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he asked a legitimate question

that didn’t call for a snide response. I, too, wonder why the expectation is that Ankiel might miss half a season. Anyone might miss half a season, or a full season for that matter. It’s true Ankiel got injured last season but I don’t see any reason to expect it’ll happen again.

by chuckb on Nov 12, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah,

and taking that line of thinking a step (or 1000 steps) further, this pujols character must not have much trade value. Everyone knows he’s one throw from going under the knife.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's a legit concern

He’s recovering from a sports hernia. Didn’t Duncan have a real hard time coming back from that as well? And I know a sports hernia doesn’t lead to a disk issue, but wasn’t that a problem with Dunc at the beginning of the season? Maybe I’m wrong and it was the back all along.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

IIRC

It was more of Duncan’s poor mechanics from playing hurt for so long that caused him to struggle early on. He tried to play with the hernia too long in 07 and changed his swing. The bad habits were still there in 08.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Unlike Ankiel playing with it for well over a month?

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The difference being

I do not recall Ankiel making significant adjustments to his swing when he did play with it. Perhaps a comparison of Ankiels numbers post injury with Duncans post injury from the previous year would be worthwhile, but I got a test to study for.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ank's swing looked awful after the injury

Anyway, he was injured July 26th, 2008. Duncan was hurt “in late July” of 2007, though I can’t find a link to that. Let’s just use opening day- Jul 26 for both of them ;)

               pre-injury             post injury
ankiel ’08 .890 OPS, 386 PA .594 OPS, 77 PA
duncan ’07 .955 OPS, 314 PA .514 OPS, 118 PA

I hereby declare July 26th to be the Day of Doom for STL outfielders. Stay home that day next year, fellas.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 13, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as of now it's a sunday game @ philly, first pitch tba

meaning the wwl could pick it up if they want to. and if they pick it up late, that could piss off TLR. you know how much he hates it when the wwl carries a game. so he very well could go with an all MI OF like he did more than once this september just to piss off the wwl. it wouldn’t hurt to pass along this little bit of info just in case. know what i’m sayin?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 13, 2008 12:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It really sucks about duncan

He was such a good player for the first 600 at bats or so of his career. Then the injuries and the lack of playing time as well as the raw ugliness of his game made him irrelivant in Saint Louis. I would love to see Duncan get another chance once healthy, but with the depth of our outfield and all of that young talent, it doens’t look like he will get that chance with us.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 12:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

with everything you said, except I have a sneaking suspicion he will get every chance to play if he proves he is healthy, even if that cost ABs from Ludwick, Ankiel, and Rasmus.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 12:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

kevin curtis

is having no problem coming back from a sports hernia, but he made sure to take all the time necessary to recover; something duncan didn’t do.

by spencegrif on Nov 12, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I'm not making the argument

I’m just speculating on why CardsFan would think so and I think there’s some legitimacy to it. Also, just because Kevin Curtis did it, doesn’t mean much. Sure, it’s possible he’s 100% healed, but I think it probably should be a concern (at least to a degree). Plus, Rick’s had a lot of injuries in the past, so it’s not like the hernia is the one red flag on the resume. He’s got the hernia, an elbow and a knee. Oh, and a head, but that’s the least of our worries.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just posted that

because I think other team’s GMs would look at him being injured last season, and think, hey, maybe he’ll get injured on my team if I trade for him, making him an extremely high risk acquisition since A. he’ll only be there for a year and B. he may be injured for some duration of that year.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 13, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry

I have a hard time telling when someone is joking on the internet. I really don’t expect any of our guys to get hurt, because all I have to do is be an optimistic fan.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was just wondering

if you had actually heard there were complications with Ankiels condition that might cause him to miss time next year or if you were just assuming he would be hurt for some reason or another.

Just an innocent question.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 9:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry man

I didn’t mean to take it the wrong way; I haven’t heard anything about Rick’s condition since the hernia.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 13, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was fun! A couple thoughts....

You should have asked are you counting on Chris Carpenter to make a contribution in 2009 if that’s what you were looking for. To me there is a big difference between “do you think” and “are you counting on”

Oquendo to the Mariners makes me nervous. I’d really like to see him get a shot at running the Cards in the near future.

I’m willing to trade anyone on the roster if it will make the Cardinals a better team. Having said that, I can’t imagine a single scenario where trading Pujols makes the Cardinals a better team.

I’d like to see an open competition for closer (including Izzy). I don’t think anyone has earned the job.

I’d personally rather see Todd than Boggs. I think Boggs is back end rotation filler and I’d like to see if Todd has anymore upside than that.

by billymartin on Nov 12, 2008 11:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Had fun with this and would like to see it again

Is there a way to present future questions in a poll format that would automatically tabulate?

"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."

by Bahamaredbird on Nov 12, 2008 11:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nope.

See, that was my intention at the beginning of this. I had planned to add a bunch of polls, and then as everybody voted, we could track the results and then have a big wrap at the end of it. Unfortunately, the SB Nation format only allows one poll to be added to any given post. Therefore, this much more labour intensive model.

Victory is sweet, even deep in the cheap seats.

by the red baron on Nov 12, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't

you use a poll service from another website and just embed the code into the SB Nation editor?

by spants on Nov 12, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If not polls,

You could outsource the number crunching to a member of the VEB community. I’m sure there are plenty of people around here that enjoy these posts and would be willing to help out.

Pujols for Secretary of Defense.

by davethebutcher on Nov 12, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And have plenty of time on their hands......

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

do we have a member

cardfaninmexico
or cardfaninindia

I kid, i kid

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Nov 12, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's awesome

sometimes you have to multitask

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Was just playing around online...

Apparently your Internet Famous now – http://incredimazing.com/page/Father_of_the_Year

Pujols for Secretary of Defense.

by davethebutcher on Nov 18, 2008 2:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Manager

At some point, though not necessarily directly following TLR, I’d like to see Mike Matheny managing the Cards. Or any big league team aside from the North Siders.

by spencegrif on Nov 12, 2008 11:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Mike Matheny

for pitching coach

by alberich on Nov 12, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Amen, and amen

Matheny has been my desired pick for mgr for two years now. AND, if he was the manager he would also in effect BE the pitching coach, too.

It’s too bad that the question is temporarily moot, tho. I fully expect LaRussa and Duncan to end up in Cincinnati, but not until 2010 at the earliest. (Another year of odd decisions by Dustbag in Reds’ country will finish his march to wear out his welcome there.)

by the Tewk on Nov 12, 2008 11:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

While I can kinda understand those who question Oquendo's experience

Mike Matheny hasn’t coached anything. And is it even know if he want’s to coach?

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great stuff!

I especially liked the part about Franklin.

by mikeonthecards on Nov 12, 2008 11:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

without the maybe box

you might have had 43 no’s.

but anyway, i’m one of the few that voted for ludwick and i did so because we’d obviously be selling high. and when you sell something that has been performing well, it might continue to perform well for a while. but if you can get something that you think will perform better or for longer, then i think you make the move.

by UNCDubya on Nov 12, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My only hesitation with moving Ludwick...

besides the fact that he’s probably our second best hitter, is that I don’t think he’s “established” himself as a premiere player and is thus undervalued by other GM’s. He, much like Ankiel, could significantly boost his value by a 1st half similar to last year’s. At that point we decide which of those two to move based on peak value. Obviously there are other things to consider…will Ankiel be a type A? Are either one or both of them too vital to our playoff push? Skip is expendable on a team with our depth, but could be a solid 3/4 OFer for a borderline contender with OF issues.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I think if we redid this vote at a point before the trade deadline when (heaven forbid) the cards are out of contention, the results would be much different, even with the same personnel.

by spencegrif on Nov 12, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Just throwing out a random number here, but I think something like a 20% decline is being priced into the equation when dealing with other teams. Holliday, another outfielder with one year remaining and a big payday coming up, doesn’t see to be the right match. I like ATL’s middle infielders a lot, but I don’t know if they are worth dealing Ludwick for either.

If he is being valued as something substantially less than what he did last year, then I am inclined to hold on to him for at least another year.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 12, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you mean

just one of ATL’s MIFs for Luddy or both of them? Because if it were both I would probably have to do that deal, but that just seems completely unrealistic to me.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha

thanks

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would gladly...

Trade Ludwick for Kelly johnson OR Yunel Escobar. In my opinion, the warm body we are likely to run out to one or both of our middle infield positions next year will be much worse then any of our internal options to replace Ludwick in the outfield.

by billymartin on Nov 12, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We would almost certainly

lose more net production from Ludwick than we would gain from Johnson. Escobar I would have to think about.

Of course, I am in the minority that expects another season from Ludwick that is pretty similar to ’08. After all, he only started 132 games last year so his rate stats could slip a little and not affect his counting stats. However, I think his rate stats will be pretty similar.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BeyondtheBoxScore had Luddy as...

…the 21st best hitter in baseball last year, adjusted for park, position, and including defense.

Who wants to guess if either Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar made the top 50?

by mojowo11 on Nov 12, 2008 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The point is

Ludwick and Iz are probably as good as Mather/Colby and Yunel. I personally would start Colby in AAA and trade luddy midseason, but right now for yunel it would be okay.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 8:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

According to OPD Ludwick was a 36.4 and Izturis was a 4.58 for a total of 40.98. Escobar was a 3, so by the OPD system Mather and Colby would have to combine for a production of 37.98 which would be better than every RF in baseball.

Total Value has Luddy at 50.8 and Izturis at 20.2 for a total of 71. Escobar is at 30.4 so the Mather/Colby tandem would have to score 39.6 to break even. That level of production would indicate Jayson Werth or Randy Winn, so you might be able to break even depending on whose system you happen to believe more and just how good the defense is from the kids.

Total Value shows Escobar a lot more love than OPD for whatever reason, I guess they like his defense more.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's for now, not the future.

A thing generally overlooked in the discussion of this particular trade is that Ludwick is on the wrong side of 30 (“wrong” … how damning … but so am I). Even if the optimistic view of Lud in 2009 turns out to be correct, he’s not that many years from his decline phase; no hitter in his thirties is (modulo chemical enhancements…). It’s easy to forget his age, since he’s hardly a long-time major leaguer, but any deal should be evaluated for its long-term effects as well as what it gains the instant it’s made. Yes, Lud for Johnson or Escobar straight up might be a net loss of productivity in 2009. By 2011, there’s every reason to believe it won’t be.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 12, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

I sure hope we aren’t pushing out our expectations for 2011. If we are going to have to wait that long to break even then they better sweeten the pot.

Plus, I hope you are wrong about the aging curve as Albert is only 18 months younger than Ludwick. In 2011 Ludwick will only be 32 at the start of the season. I don’t think you can support that 32 constitutes age-related decline of any significance. Larry Walker hit .379 at age 32, Mark McGwire slugged .730 at age 32, Javy Lopez slugged .687 at age 32, Tony Gwynn hit .368 at 35, Chipper Jones posted a 1.029 OPS at age 35. I think you get the idea.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Albert cannot be compared to Luddy

Although I have no basis for this, I have a gut feeling that Pujols will produce at a high level until he is 40.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 2:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I sure hope so

But i’m sure alot of White Sox fans though the same thing about Frank Thomas as well as Reds fans about Griffy Jr.

I’m not trying to be the wet blanket, but if a players body fails it doesn’t matter how much talet they have.

That downer aside – I think Albert has a great chance to produce at a high level late into his career.

"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"

by Knighttime on Nov 13, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Equal Value

The point of a trade like Ludwick for whoever is for us to get relatively even value changing hands. Just because we have capable reserve outfielders doesn’t mean we should accept an unfair trade, even if the net gain was zero or slightly better. We would be trading Ludwick to get equal value coming back, in some combination of talent, production, upside, positional scarcity & cost certainty.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Nov 13, 2008 9:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Affeldt

tell me more about Affeldt… also, is Beimel going to be too expensive? he was my choice in the “other” category… just wondering why he didn’t get his own option, among others.

also, to harken back to the rookies of the year post, I have to say Barton should get our rookie of the year, considering he basically had to skip the minors and go straight to the Big Leagues, where he showed lots of promise.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 12:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A guy who is heading in the right direction

All signs point to yes

K/9 Up
BB/9 Down
Steadily improving GB rate, and he was even a bit unlucky b/c his BABIP was higher than average

Great tRA of 3.68, which factors in the offense-friendly atmosphere of Great American Ball Park.

by lightbulb on Nov 12, 2008 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

I’m now in the Affeldt camp, although I wouldn’t mind getting Beimel or Ohman either

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One of each...

One of the better/higher profile guys like Ohman or Affeldt plus a Shouse/Rhodes (still my pick)/Beimel sounds great to me.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Affeldt would sign for a lot

probably something like a 3 year 17 mil dollar deal. I wouldn’t mind paying that because he is really good, but i don’t think that we could sign another LOOGY in addition to that. Our bullpen looks very deep for next year with full seasons of Perez, Motte and Kinney so we really don’t need a guy like Affeldt who pitched almost 78 innings this year. We really just need a couple of true LOOGY’s like shouse and beimel.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 15, 2008 2:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And for reference

tRA is on the runs allowed not earned runs allowed scale. -.4 to -.5 to put it on the ERA scale.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps the "other"

selection should have included a list of possibilities: Shouse, Beimel, Rhodes (my “other” choice). Eyre’s already reupped (not at the time of voting) and the other three are probably significantly more expensive in years, dollars and draft pick compensation.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Big question that is burning at me about trading Ludwick

So with all the talk about Mo trading Ludwick for this player and that player….does Mo have a plan to replace Ludwick’s offense in the line-up? Say Mo does trade Luddy to the Braves for a middle infielder….who is going to give us the numbers that Ludwick gave us last year?
I know some will say Rasmus….but to me that would be a huge risk to count on and it would put a lot of pressure on the kid in his first year in the bigs.

If we do trade Ludwick will Mo go out and sign a free agent like a Adam Dunn or will they just hope Mather/Rasmus will give Albert some good protection in the line-up?
I know we need a 2nd baseman real bad…but trading our 2nd best hitter last year for one doesn’t really make me happy. I have a bad feeling that trading Luddy will be a decision Mo will regret by the All-Star break when Albert is getting walked every other at bat and the Cards are struggling to score runs.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 12, 2008 2:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think we're trying to replace...

Ludwick’s production from last year – truthfully I don’t expect Ludwick to replicate last year’s numbers. I think the idea is that the upgrade at 2nd base or SS will more than offset the downgrade (Mather?) in Left Field, hopefully a net gain in production. I think Mather could be just as good as Ludwick, but wouldn’t bet more than a nickel on it. In my opinion JoMo really needs to focus on SS over 2nd as Miles/Barden/Hoffpauir are all better than Ryan or Iz2.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.....

If Luddy falls off some, I think the thinking is that Ankiel’s increased production (if healthy all year) and Raz would adequately replace Luddy’s season. Coupled with better MI hitting, hopefully.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Nov 12, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Troy Glaus had a bad power year by his stardards last year. He could potential replicate ludwicks power numbers by himself with a better obp because of all those walks.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I sorta agree

but my hunch is Glaus’ basic problem is from the neck up. I don’t see that many games but the ones I did see it was common for TG to get upset or distracted, often by the plate umpire. Which leads me to say (swallowing hard, with the fond memories of the bat control Ted Sizemore slowly fading) that I would be ok with Glaus hitting in the 2-hole {get him to concentrate and not feel so much RBI pressure.} BUT…that means KEEP Luddy or make damn sure someone like him hits BEHIND Albert.

by the Tewk on Nov 12, 2008 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Luddy was in the two a lot last year as well

obviously that was where he was the best.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 11:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2-hole

wasn’t the 2-hole the “slump buster” spot? On the surface it seemed whenever Ankiel or Ludwick was slumping TLR put them ahead of Albert to see better pitches. It also looked like he would put the young guys there when they were just getting started – Barton, Mather, Stav.

I would take a guess everybody probably had better stats hitting in that spot vs any other spot in the order.

"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"

by Knighttime on Nov 13, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nein, mein kinder.

Rick Ankiel

Batting 2nd : .236/.295/.458
Batting 4th: .253/.333./.502
Batting 5th: .321/.391/.491

Luddy was far and away most productive in the two hole.

by tom s. on Nov 14, 2008 2:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

look at it this way

if Luddy goes, and we get someone who can actually hit from the MIF, and Ank stays healthy and Rasmus is not a fluke, then I think we can get a net gain from losing Ludwick. lot of ifs there, I know.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but is it wise to actually count on a full season from Ankiel?

dude hasn’t done that since i don’t know when.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel's health for a full season

worries me too. I would be in favor of trading Luddy for some help….BUT I would also like for Mo to sign a guy like Dunn for that extra “HR/BRI insurance” for the line-up.

Say Ankiel and Rasmus get hurt….then what? Remember both went down to injuries late last season.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 12, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then

Mather comes in off the bench. Not a huge issue depending how long one would be out. the bigger issue is the production you can expect from rasmus

by spencegrif on Nov 12, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not to mention

Barton is a viable option

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Based on what?

He has been healthy three years in a row. The last time Ankiel could say that he was a teenager.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ludwick has had a lot of injuries through his career

that’s all I’m saying

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Weren't they more of the "freak" variety though?

I know he fractured his hip at one point, but I can’t remember what else ailed him.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

he’s probably pretty durable now, but he has had his share of bad injuries. you could argue the same for Ankiel, especially if we move him out of center.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How about signing Trevor Hoffman?

Any takers in Cardinal Nation?

mattnj

by mattnj on Nov 12, 2008 3:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

meh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On the cheap?

Absolutely…I’m sure he could teach Motte, Perez and McClellen a thing or two about pitching out of the bullpen. That alone would be worth the money to me.

by billymartin on Nov 12, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

if there’s some kind of discount or he doesn’t command as much $ as I would think… sure. is he a lefty?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

trevor hoffman? no

soft tossing righty.

or where you joking?

fyi, if they bring IZZY back there’s no way they sign trevor. there’s not enough room in that pen unless TLR ships YP back to Memphis again. oh crap,,,,

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he could teach Motte a changeup he'd be worth 20 mil

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I could care less about production from the middle infield

As long as SS & 2b play above average defense and you get good production from the rest of the line up what’s the big deal?

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 12, 2008 3:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe for an American League team with a DH

But in the NL I think at least one of those two positions (SS/2nd) you need some production. If not ..you’re going to have a black hole at the end of your line-up…which is pretty close to what we had last year….except for when Waino or Looper was hitting :)

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 12, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Resisting----urge----to----be------grammar police

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ahah!

I missed that… he could care less, but he chooses not to. why does this never get old?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what happened to all the comments

and where is the stinkin’ star?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 12, 2008 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's strange...

but at least it’s still green.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 9:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Green!!

and all i did was google “i could care less” and clicked on a couple sites

Smell the Glove

by emrfg8 on Nov 12, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maddon and Piniella are managers of the year

Story at Yahoo Sports. Maddon was a no-brainer, but I’m surprised at the margin Piniella won by over Charlie Manuel – it wasn’t huge, but Piniella certainly got more support than I expected.
La Russa got a single first place vote.

by BTown Birds fan on Nov 12, 2008 3:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Two things that cost Tony the award (he was the frontrunner at the All-Star break btw)

1. The annual Cardinals September collapse.
2. The Brewers getting Sabathia and in the process making the Cards not seem like as much of a contender the final two months.
But mostly #1.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 12, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

that’s an unfortunate tradition of at least the last 3 seasons

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's a damn shame

no one did a better job in the NL than TRL did last year. the Cards were picked to fight the jolly roger’s for last place, and they damn near won the f’ing division. this a gotdamned joke. just imagine what he’d do with sweet lou’s payroll? damn you wwl & all you other big market biased hacks for the piss poor job of actually reporting on other teams. you should all be ashamed.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that said

Lou Piniella really isn’t that different of a manager… not quite as good as TLR, but still. I’d have to give manager of the year to the Phillies manager

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 4:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think most of the reasons

the Cardinals overachieved were outside of TLR’s control. Primarily due to Ludwick’s emergence (which TLR resisted) and the Lohse signing.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

combined with

the line ups from a parallel universe or whatever he ran out the last few weeks. far from inspiring admiration

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Nov 12, 2008 9:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to pile on

but playing the injured players (Ank, Duncan) and staying with the non-performing veteran relievers (Izzy, Flores). I have a hard time to see much Tony did this year that would be deserving of any love.

Give Mo some credit for Lohse and Ludwick and Duncan some credit for McClellan. Nobody gets credit for El Hombre – he is on a tier by himself.

Yes, I did want to pile on and it was fun for me.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 9:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm sorry, but it's very hard for me to give an award to a flub over a Cardinal

i know TLR did his best to screw things up at the end of the season, but my bias just won’t let me believe sweet lou did a better job. especially considering how big his payroll is & how many of our guys went down with injuries.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 13, 2008 12:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Last thing I want to do

is give anyone the impression I am a Piniella supporter. I think it should have been either Manuel or Torre.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 1:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

 i don’t understand how piniella could be manager of the year. what a joke.

by spencegrif on Nov 12, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nikki Rush

With a name like that, you know she’s got to be smokin’ hot.

Sorry it didn’t work out, RB.

by Andyfantastic on Nov 12, 2008 4:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

An idea I haven't seen anywhere else

What about Jeff Niemann? He essentially has 0 service time, he’s blocked by about 10000 pitchers already and there’s another 34,223 pitchers going to jump him in the Rays system in ‘09 so he’s available, he’s major league ready, he’s groundbally for LaDunc, he posted ~4.00 MLE FIP (I adjusted minorleaguesplits HR/FB% down to 10%—-not sure why they don’t regress that to the mean) last year, he’s 6’8 and throws hard. Ludwick for Zobrist + Niemann?

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2008 5:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

if the concern about Zobrist

is his defense, and if it’s a legitimate concern, Ludwick’s worth more.

by chuckb on Nov 12, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If S.W doesn't get the M's gig

he could probably help Zob out. But I’d be happy for Oquendo if he does leave us.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I could be way off

but I was thinking more like Zobrist + prospect for Skip. Ludwick seems way to much to trade for Zobrist + prospect, then again – I’m not a sabermetrics guru.

"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"

by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Rays

are looking for more power in the corner OF than what Skip could provide. Maybe Mather+ but I think Mather’s offensive production will be greater than Zobrist’s so I would be apprehensive about that deal. But Ben does play a premium position (even if it is possibly below league average)

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not on the Zobrist wagon

At least not to that extent, either. I might be missing something. I like him, because he shows a little bit of power, but if that is what Ludwick brings back to us then I’d just keep Ludwick. Lud may not play a premium position, and we may have a redundancy in the outfield. The redundancy is really on the left hand side, though, and Ludwicks season was so impressive – I don’t see this as “selling high”.

And as far as I can tell, there are real questions as to whether Zobrist can really stick at SS defensively. That is a big risk for a couple reasons. First you have a groundball, pitch to contact staff he’ll be playing behind. Second, a .250-.270 type hitter with a little pop doesn’t play as well anywhere else than he would at SS, if he needs to move.

Maybe I just don’t see Zobrist’s ceiling the same as others do. His minor league numbers are awesome, but he was always up there in age for the level he was playing at. Freese is a decent comp in that regard. By June he’ll be 28 years old. I hope he does well though – he’s from central Illinois – real close to where I grew up.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 12, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're underrating how well Zobrist hit last year

He didn’t have “a little” pop, he had a whole crapload of pop. He hit 12 homers in 198 ABs. That translates to 30 homers in 500 ABs. There was pop spilling out of his orifices. And one could reasonably assume a move to the NL would help.

I don’t know about you, but I’d love a shortstop with an .844 OPS. That would be the second-best SS OPS in the MLB at the position (still well behind O-Hanley).

If Zobrist could be an average or slightly below-average defensive shortstop and post an .830-.840 OPS, that would be quite nice. The question is, of course, whether he could field the position that well.

by mojowo11 on Nov 12, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One could also reasonably assume

that he doesn’t have 30-HR true talent level.

by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe

he is a big guy, a switch hitter and watching him at times this year he really has a fluid and powerfull swing, especially from the left side. I think that with some minor adjustments and more playing time he could easily hit 25-30 homers.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 8:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love the Projections

and potential of Zobrist. From what I read on this site from you very intelligent and analytical folk – he certianly sounds like a guy who would help improve the production at SS for the Cardinals.

He might have 30HR level talent, but at the moment he is a 27yr old – 12 HR utility player who just played his 1st full season in the majors with a line of .253/.339/.505 in 198 at bats (ba/obp/slg i hope i put them in the right order).

I doesnt seem like he is worth Ludwick, and seems to me more like Skip level talent as far as a trade.

True the Rays need power and Skip does not solve that problem – however they also might lose Baldelli and with this trade Zobrist while Gomes and Gross are both Arbitration eligible. Skip could certianly be able to be their 4th OF and one who can fill in at all 3 positions – and most definitely wont need to lead off for them.

"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"

by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 9:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Zobrist hit 23 HRs in

5 YEARS in the minors. Now he’s projected to hit 30 in one season. C’mon. I’m not saying he doesn’t have power but to take a linear extrapolation of his ABs this year is just not an accurate representation of him as a player.

It isn’t reasonable to expect someone to go from barely made the roster to second best hitting SS in MLB at age 27. Sorry, that doesn’t seem to add up.

by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I like Zobrist OK, but anybody who is drinking that Kool-Aid should not be allowed to post anything about Luddy regressing. Not saying anybody did anything like that, just sayin’…

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 9:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And let's just imagine he is going to hit 30 home runs next year.

Why would the Rays trade a 30 homerun 27 year old shortstop for a 30 home run 30 year old corner outfielder, oh and kick in a pretty decent pitcher as well?

A lot of this stuff doesn’t make sense from lots of angles.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some reasons for pause

There is a lot of variance in a 198 AB sample. Maybe we shouldn’t take those 198 ABs and extrapolate that he’s a top 5 SS, just like we shouldn’t take 280 ABs in 06 & 07 and come to the conclusion he’s one of the worst hitting players in the league. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Heck it probably lies closer to last year than the previous 2. But we also don’t know if he can really stick at SS. At least I don’t. Beyond that his great lines in the minors have to be taken with at least a small grain of salt. He was in A ball at 24, AA most of the time at 25, and AAA at 26. He hit 23 homers total in the minors.

But most importantly, we are talking about Ryan Ludwick. There’s a legitimate case that Zobrist can be a really good player, but in my opinion it is a bit too speculative a play to be making for Ludwick. Ludwick hit 140 homers in the minors. He had a ISO of .241 at the high A level at 21, .220 at primarily AA at 22, .263 at AAA at 23, .255 at 24…..And then he had a .292 ISO last year in the majors (in 538 ABs).

So I feel a hell of a lot more confident in Ludwicks ability to hit for power. Corner outfielder or not, regardless of whether he is 30, this is not easily replaceable either.

He may regress, but in my opinion that is already easily being priced into the equation if we are talking about dealing him for Zobrist.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 12, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that the best trade with Luddy involved would be for Uggla

He is the only available second baseman that could come close to producing Luddy-like numbers. He has been remarkably consistent over his first 3 seasons. Low-ish BA, a lot of doubles and homers, solid defense, good OBP and he did all of that in a pitchers park in Florida. I think that we could get him relatively cheaply, maybe a package of Luddy, Freese and Kennedy. That is the one trade involving Luddy that would definitely improve our offense exponentially. We would be replacing the offense of Kennedy with Uggla, that is 30 plus homers right there. Also if healthy, Ankiel would improve a lot and Colby and Mather would be a good platoon to replace Luddy’s numbers offensively.

The Lineup with that trade:
Schu
Colby/Mather
Pujols
Glaus
Uggla
Ankiel
Yadi
Pitcher
Izturiz

If our position players this year were the best in baseball (combined offensively and defensively) than next year with Uggla we would be even better.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 12:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1000

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Bullpen In Save Situations

Our biggest problem last year was probably our inability to hold on to leads. Knowing this, I thought it might be interesting to get a statistical picture of just how effective each our bullpen guys were during save-type situations.

I went through the game logs on Fangraphs.com and parsed out any outcome that was: produced by a reliever; occurred in the 6th inning or later; & occurred with a 3-run-or-less lead and/or qualified as a save situation (4-run lead & 2 runners on, or 5-run lead & bases loaded). (Sometimes you can have a 3-run lead and it is not a save situation, but it wasn’t worth quibbling over.) Anyway, here they are:

WPA	Name	Out	Reach	Run	BS	Sv	IP	ROW	WHIP	Holds	K

-2.670	Team	416	219	88	31	42	138.2	5.71	1.58	106	112
-.179	Franklin	109	50	23	8	17	36.1	5.70	1.38	13	26
.951	McClellan	108	57	17	5	1	36.0	4.25	1.58	30	27
-2.921	Izzy	47	40	21	7	12	15.2	12.06	2.55	2	14
-.722	Perez	39	15	7	4	7	13.0	4.85	1.15	6	15
.511	Springer	31	13	4	2	0	10.1	3.48	1.26	15	11
-1.057	Flores	22	22	9	2	1	7.1	11.05	3.00	14	4
.059	Villone	20	11	3	1	1	6.2	4.05	1.65	16	6
.717	Motte	14	2	0	0	1	4.2	0.00	0.43	4	5
.295	Garcia	12	3	0	0	0	4.0	0.00	0.75	3	1
-.058	Thompson	9	2	1	1	0	3.0	3.00	0.67	1	0
.040	Reyes	5	1	2	0	1	1.2	10.80	0.60	2	3
-.306	Mulder	0	2	1	1	0	0.0	INF	INF	0	0

Going through the columns: WPA is Win Probability added, a measure of game impact (see Fangraphs); Out is the number of outs recorded during "save situations"; Reach is the number of batters that reached base; Run is the number of runs scored while a reliever was pitching (not to be confused with earned runs); BS is blown saves; Sv; IP; ROW is Runs On Watch Average, basically the Runs listed before, converted over like ERA; WHIP, similar to the normal acronym, except I included all batters who reached; Holds; & K

(I have no numbers to compare any of this to; I did all of this by hand, a few minutes at a time at work, so I haven’t gotten around to doing all of the teams. Unless someone knows how to easily pull up this specific data online, I probably won’t complete the "study".)

Picking through the numbers, Izzy shines like a beacon, or whatever the "I suck at this" equivalent is. He recorded 47 outs while putting 40 batters on base, allowing 21 baserunners to score. Plus his WPA would indicate that he cost the Cardinals almost three full games in the standings.

Flores was nearly as bad, matching up his 22 outs with his 22 batters reaching & plating 9 guys as well. His Hold total looks impressive, given how much time he missed, but it is important to remember – Tony would not leave Randy (nor Villone, really) out long enough in a tight spot to really screw things up on his watch. Going through each particular at bat with a 1-run lead, Randy faced 14 batters; he recorded 5 outs and put 9 guys on base, throwing a WP, allowing 3 stolen bases, & blowing two save opportunities.

Speaking of Villone, his Hold total (16) & one lone save are amazing considering he only recorded 20 eligible outs.

Franklin & McClellan have rather similar numbers (IP & K), so let’s compare the two. Franklin was just a touch below average, according to WPA, where Kyle was over a full win better. This can be greatly attributed to when Franklin blew his save opportunities (1 in the 8th inning, 5 in the 9th, & 1 in the 10th) vs. when McClellan did (1 in the 6th & 4 in the 8th). Also noteworthy is that Kyle was actually 31 for 36 in save opportunities, although he was only credited with one save (30 holds).

Perez wasn’t really that bad, especially compared to the team averages (better ROW, K-rate, much better WHIP). His blown opportunities rate was higher (27% v 17%), but he didn’t have the luxury of the LOOGY one-out-hold.

Springer was under-utilized despite terrific numbers. One reason that I can see for this is that Russ has exhibited problems in the past coming out for a second inning or consecutive days. Tony probably factors that into his role-selection and has to plan out Springer’s usage patterns a little more; someone like Franklin he can "abuse" a little more with fewer ill effects. (NOTE: Russ’ 8th inning numbers were rather poor, including both of his blown saves.)

The rest of the group was quite proficient (not including Mulder). Motte & Garcia combined allowed no runs & 5 baserunners while recording 26 outs. Thompson did fairly well, although he had one blown save and most of the outs didn’t technically qualify as save situations. Reyes only allowed one hit against 5 outs, but it was a 2-run HR (no real harm – it was with a 3-run lead).

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Nov 12, 2008 5:02 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

very nice analysis

that’s why I had to vote for Motte over Perez… though we have little to indicate what will happen with them next year. I’d be comfortable with Motte being the high leverage guy and Perez being the closer though.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would like the Cardinals

To trade for a Cheap SS (Yunel) for Ludwick. Than put the extra money they saved from Ludwick and put it toward the Bullpen. I think they should maybe not resign Springer and put that money towards someone like Hoffman or even better Fuentes.

I would be in heaven if the Cardinals got a shut down bullpen.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not sold on fuentes

and of course, he will be overpaid

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And would cost a 1st round draft pick.

No way in hell would I give up a first rounder for Fuentes.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I’m surprised flim would want that guy

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he is Under Rated

He was worth roughly 30 RAR=$14 million last season. I think most people don’t realize how good he really is. I think the perception of him is that he is just ok.

Plus, If you sign One Type A FA might as well sigh 2

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that I agree with,

The signing of 2 Type A’s, but I wouldn’t want Fuentes to be the one who decided it. Like, if you started with signing A.J Burnett or CC, then I’d be like, “hell, yeah might as well sign Fuentes too” as opposed to “We just signed Fuentes! Now we can sign Orlando Hudson too!”.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 12, 2008 7:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Luddy is just as cheap as Yunel

But I do think we should trade Luddy for him or for Uggla

by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correction

Franklin blew two games in the 8th, not just one.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Nov 12, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

stupid Franklin

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i could use some franklin's right about now

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 13, 2008 12:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This comment

was just copied into a new fanpost where we could all have easier access to it.

by chuckb on Nov 12, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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