trade idea/hot stove catch all thread 11/11-11/14 or until 250 comments
Since the Hot Stove Post has reached 415 comments and is somewhat unwieldy, it seems we should make a new one that is a little easier to navigate.
So it seems as if the minute Mo hung up the phone with O'Dowd, nixing the holliday deal, Billy Beane had a deal worked out within minutes and it appears Holliday will be wearing green and yellow next season. I, for one, was for the deal, but only if Mo would have been able to extend Holliday.
Let's just hope that Peavy is dealt soon, so we can find out if the Braves will give us Yunel or not.
Does anybody actually believe Mo when he says that he nixed the Holliday deal due to the information leak by the media?
Update: I'm thinking that a new one should get made once this one hits 250 comments or so? how does that sound?
5 recs |
272 comments
Comments
Well, NL CY announced:
Lincecum won! congrats to Tiny Tim!
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 4:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I thought the media leak frustration was separate from the deal dying?
I could be wrong. I was under the impression that it was more a simple matter of the Rockies asking for way more than MO was willing to give up.
Anyway I hope that the Holliday business was just MO looking into every possible avenue, and that the whole thing became overblown because of the superstar name involved. Furthermore, obviously the Peavy saga prevents us from closing a deal with Atlanta which I hope is forthcoming.
by mattybobo on Nov 11, 2008 4:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i read
that they might look into matt cain if they miss out on peavy. i like the fact that atlanta is willing to deal but i hope Mo doesn’t wait them out for too long.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Nov 11, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One more category needs to be added to the poll
“No, he won’t do a damn thing anytime soon.” That’s the one I vote for, sadly.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 11, 2008 4:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i wish that SB Nation
would allow you to edit a poll after its creation, but sadly, it’s not possible.
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Greene
If I was a betting man, I think Mo is now waiting for the Padres to trade Peavy to the Braves for Escobar and others. Then we will make a trade with the Padres for Khalil Greene. What would be even more interesting is we also trade for Brian Giles and then spin one of Giles, Luddy, or Ankiel to another team to fill another hole. I wouldnt be all that suprised to see this happen, considering it should cost much of anything to get both Greene and Giles.
by stl3bagger on Nov 11, 2008 5:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Padres just picked up Giles for 9 mil.
by madeintaiwan on Nov 11, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea but they tried to trade him last year
some people think the padres are still looking to move him
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 11, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I read where Giles said
he would be willing to waive his no trade if he could start for a contender. I hope he considers us a contender.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 11, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like this move a lot better than the Holliday deal.
Giles and Greene can probably be had for something pretty reasonable. If the Padres don’t get their Center fielder from Atlanta maybe they’d be interested in Skippy. Maybe a Skip+Todd+Worrell or Salas?
by cardzfanbub on Nov 11, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Had to do a double take
when I saw “Todd+Worrell”. Thanks for the flashback.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 11, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
trading retired players is the new market inefficiency!
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
finally
baseball can catch up to the NBA. I think Terrell Brandon is still being traded.
by DanUpBaby on Nov 11, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, Terrell Brandon!
I have to say that I love it every time I hear an NBA trade proposal that involves the words “PLAYER X’S expiring contract.”
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 11, 2008 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel so horrible that we don't have a salary cap.
oh, wait. I don’t feel horrible about it at all.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Nov 11, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+36
Nor do I.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 11, 2008 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
AMEN!
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Nov 12, 2008 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giles
and his OBP would look good in the 2 hole in front of Albert.
If we do get him I seriously doubt we could spin him off since he has no trade protection.
Who do we need to give up to pull off this deal? Would Ludwick be in it to begin with?
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on Nov 11, 2008 5:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
reply
I meant to do this the post above mine.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on Nov 11, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick is too much to give up for Giles.
Schumaker plus Mortenson/Todd, something like that.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 11, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm on board with the idea of Giles in LF and the 2 hole, but...
I really think we would miss Ludwick behind Pujols (and i would assume he would be the piece to go for a Kelly Johnson +, lets say). That would put Glaus Ankiel and Johnson in the 4, 5, 6 spots.
Rasmus
Giles
Pujols
Glaus
Ankiel
Johnson
SS
Molina
P
That lineup has more balance and solid OBP potential in front of Pujols but Im sorry, I just dont trust Glaus and Ank to be ‘counted on’ as middle of the order run PRODUCERS as opposed to mop up guys.
by rlgosnell on Nov 12, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Troy glaus has been doing it for a lot longer than luddy
he has great power potential and draws a lot of walks. I think that he is the best bet to outproduce his numbers from last year, other than AP
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be very leery of building a lineup around Glaus at cleanup
It would be a major reversal of form for him to produce in the four spot. In 2008 he hit .228/.305/.351/.656 batting fourth while his overall slash was .270/.372/.483/.855. He has a history throughout his career of not being particularly productive batting fourth.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giles is better than Holliday
One thing though you have to consider if he gets traded he gets a $2 mil pay raise to $11 mil
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 3:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$11 mil is still less than...
$13.5 mil, and Giles could probably be extended for like 2/$22-24 if he has a good year. I expect that Giles will have a better OPS than Holliday this year IF he’s not playing in Petco. He’s an excellent defender with excellent on base ability and would look great in from of the Mang. It’d probably make more sense for us to move Ankiel for him (since he would effectively bump Ank from the starting OF), but I don’t think the Pads would be interested in Rick’s pending free agency.
by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 8:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giles is not better than Holliday
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by TurdFerguson on Nov 12, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SleepyCA...
wherefore art thou. Someone please provide park adjusted numbers for Giles (worst hitters park in baseball) and Holliday (2nd? best hitters park in baseball) for 2008. You’d be surprised how Giles’ .854 OPS at Petco compares with Holliday’s .947 OPS at Coors when adjusted. Giles is an old man now, but in his last six season’s in Pittsburgh he had these OPS’s: 1.032, 1.026, .994, 1.072, .941, .951 with and avg. OBP .427!!
by cardzfanbub on Nov 12, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stolen from Beyond the Box Score
Brian Giles- The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist. Giles’ trick of convincing baseball fans he’s somehow not a superstar is pretty interesting as well. A raw line of .304/.396/.449 is pretty sweet (you did notice the near.400 OBP, right?), but it’s awesome coming in PETCO, which reduces run scoring by one run per game per team compared to a neutral park. Translating Giles’ performance into 4.6 RPG environment makes it look more like .322/.415/.473, which is of similar value to a .322/.365/.553 line (trading OBP for power.) Oh, and Giles’ glove has averaged +10 runs in right field over the last two years, making him as valuable defensively as the average center fielder.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you really trade
.050 of OBP for .080 of SLG or is that a typo?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
some conversions are even more lopsided, up to three times.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Nov 13, 2008 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The most accurate weighted OPS is about 1.75*OBP + SLG
So, yeah. Should be more like .050 for .090, I guess.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Nov 13, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I’ll be lazy and just link to Sky kalkman’s BTBS “most valuable players in baseball” thread. They were about even in 2008, with Giles getting the nod because he plays RF instead of LF.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 12, 2008 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LFs and RFs get the exact same position adjustment.
But good link. ; )
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Nov 13, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i get your overall 'value' argument but come one - better than holliday?
by rlgosnell on Nov 12, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We will find out in '09
whether Matt Holliday is Matt Holliday or not. I bet you exactly one internet dollar that Holliday does not make the AL All-Star team and has an OPS lower than Brian Giles.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Although Giles is another year older and playing in San Diego it should be hard to hit homers to raise that sluggin
by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PETCO is the pitchers' version of Coors.
Let’s say Coors has a park factor of 115 and PETCO is at 85, meaning the teams that play their have scoring increased and decreased by 15% over all their games, respectively. Let’s say the average team scores 733 runs over the course of the season, which is about 4.5 per game. At Coors, that average team would score 845 runs or 5.2 per game. In PETCO, that average team would score 634 runs or 3.9 per game. 5.2 compared to 3.9 is HUGE: 220 runs over the course of the season!
That’s mostly why Giles was better than Holliday even though Holliday’s raw offensive numbers were much better. That, and Giles rated as a freak in the field while Holliday was merely pretty good.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Nov 13, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as what Mo will do
it’s still very, very early in the trade season.
More and more clear that Luddy was a value pump for the Rockies and attempted to increase Luddy’s value in the market (which may be the rationale on why Mo was mad once three players came out for Holliday, couldn’t have helped the value concept).
I wouldn’t read to much into anything now, I’ll refrain from giving him grief until Xmas.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 11, 2008 5:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think your
take on Mo’s frustration might be accurate. I hadn’t considered that, but business-wise, it makes a lot of sense.
by spants on Nov 11, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey does anyone think we should make and offer to Trevor Hoffman?
I know he is 41, but maybe he could be had at a reasonable cost. Maybe one year with and option? With his out pitch being a change he should still be able to throw it, and with him following Perez and Motte it should be a sound pitch. Why not call his agent and see what it would take?
I crack myself up sometimes.
by nybirdfan on Nov 11, 2008 5:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
august 14, 2006
I wrote my first fanpost. Nothing amazing. I have made 15 others since. Again nothing earth shattering.
It has been said for many years that the Cardinal fan is the most dedicated and knowledgeable fan in all of baseball. In the two years I have been hanging out here I have discovered that most of you believe that. It seams like a fan snobbery exists here, and it’s growing. Maybe it is time to forget the hype about the Cardinal fan, and just enjoy baseball.
And yes I think we should call Hoffman’s agent and see what they are looking for. Why not? It doesn’t hurt ask, and it shouldn’t hurt to make a fanpost!
by nybirdfan on Nov 11, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
second paragraph?
I have no idea where you were going with that, but I want to add my .02
There are few things that bother me more than self described “best of” whatevers. Having said that though, I do think that the vast majority of VEB (or SB Nation for that matter) users are some of the most dedicated and knowledgeable fans in baseball. The kind of work that some people put into some of these main posts and fanposts just screams dedicated baseball fan. As for knowledgeable, the post themselves prove that point on most days. Of course some of them are just pure fun, and there is nothing wrong with that either. I have been a huge Cardinal and baseball fan for far longer than I want to admit, and still almost everyday I learn a little something more at this place. So yeah, I don’t mind if some of the elite posters or comment makers on here believe that.
I still think the worst thing about the new stadium was that damn “Welcome to Baseball Heaven” sign. I didn’t notice it last season, that means they got rid of it, right? I guess it is possible I had one too many Franklins at the games last year to care.
/end rant
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 11, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Matty
A fan post was taken down today. It had the Hoffman idea as it’s heart. Oh, maybe 22 or so comments were made and none were about the content of the post they were all about whether it should have even existed. I felt bad for the first time poster. I think when a post gets ignored and the comments are about whether it should be here or there it might have the effect of preventing some one from trying.
by nybirdfan on Nov 11, 2008 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now I understand
but I can’t say I feel the same about it as you do.
If one isn’t worthy, then it isn’t. You kept on trying, the person that put up that post should too.
I think I have put up a total of one fanpost on here, and it was so sub-par that I had the sense to delete it myself.
Of course all this makes my rant a little less purposeful.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 11, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another $0.02
The Hot Stove threads are meandering and too long.
The last one became a garbage can for trade ideas/news. Nothing wrong with putting stuff into a folder. But when you’re tossing things into a filing cabinet, it loses its effectiveness.
People don’t organize their thoughts into a “Hot Stove” category, they think in terms of ideas. While I appreciate the desire to keep other threads from becoming cluttered, I don’t find “Hot Stove” threads very accessible. Maybe they could be divided into categories or something—position players/starters/relievers—I don’t know…maybe that doesn’t work either.
But let’s stop shooing people away for putting forward their ideas to preserve the sanctity of what is essentially a giant cardboard box filled with trade rumors.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 11, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why?
If it looked like a garbage can, then it served its purpose perfectly, because that is pretty much what hot stove threads are. It’s not about “preserving the sanctity of THE Hot Stove Thread”, it’s about preserving the sanctity of excellent posts like DGOOCH’s, which would get quickly pushed down the page if the hot stove threads weren’t there.
Several of the guys claimed that they come here “to talk baseball”. What they meant was that they want to talk TRADES. “Talking baseball” is about a whole lot more than trying to figure out if mo has the “balls” to make a bad trade, or pointing out something that no one else has noticed, such as the fact that the Marlins have a pretty good-hitting second baseman. The diaries are there to talk baseball; the hot stove threads are there to talk about the tiny subset of baseball that is trading players between teams.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I dislike fan posts that are simple question with no effort on the poster’s part. Just something simple like “Should we sign Trevor Hoffman? Discuss”
I prefer we should sign Trevor Hoffman than go into why we should with some kind of points and some stats to back it up. Like, Even though Trevor has no speed left on his pitches he still has a Swing Strike % of 11.7% but he knows how to use it even better. Since 20.79% of all Place Appearances end in a Swing Strikeout for him.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 3:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait.
Have you rec’d DGOOCH’s FanPost? If you have than it’s only you and I who have rec’d it, and it is a fantastic read with some very good info. Those posts would stay up on the Recommended FanPosts section if people would just rec them accordingly.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 8:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ohhhh
I never knew what rec meant before. It just never clicked
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, many people
were complaining that there are too many fanposts and should be combined into 1 (i.e. the catch-all thread). It would get to confusing and be broken down into to many discussions if we were constantly creating a new post for each category. how are people being shooed away?
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, it had the idea at heart,
but didn’t have much content. it basically said that we should sign hoffman. I agree, i feel terrible that the comments were based on how it didn’t merit a fanpost, but i think that posters should post as long as the post incorporates more than “sign player X” or “trade players X Y and Z for player Q”. I think that anyone can post whatever fanpost they want as long as it has content to it, and is well thought out. Keep trying Bustacard!
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
newbies shouldn't be alowed to post a fanpost
it’s as simple as that. there’s no way they know the rules. and if you don’t know the rules, you shouldn’t be allowed to play.
is that cold? is that mean? i don’t think so. it’s life baby. the easiest way i think to prevent stupid, spam, or poorly thought out fanposts is to have a minimum comment requirement in order to post one. something like 500 or a 1000 should do the trick. that way any one would have been here long enough to know what’s acceptable & what is not acceptable.
and oh yeah, i consider myself a snob. not because i know everything, but because you all do & share the wealth & knowledge with guys like me who just want to have as much fun as possible. thanks for all the hard work & keep it up.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 11, 2008 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hello, this is BustaCard
Let me first qualify my statement, and my spelling, by saying I have had a s—-ton of sake this fine evening (BONZAI!). First off, it was a bit of a blow to my ego to find that every single last comment- accept for the first one (thanks to whoever addressed my questions)- was about how I should not be posting under ‘fanposts’. Let me also say that I am the one who took it down (I don’t think the moderators would be dickish enough to do so- by the way, who are the moderators?)
“Newbies shouldn’t be allowed to fanpost”— Really? Is there some seniority blogger status I have to achieve before I ‘fanpost’. I apologize umpteen times over.
I understand the urge to keep the blog as organized as possible, and I understand that much of the analysis on this blog is over my head (what the f—- is VORP?) But I don’t understand why more people couldn’t address the questions in my post (it’s pasted at the end of this comment). While my name may be BustaCard, I assure all of you that I am no Busta (it’s intended irony). I’m located in North Carolina, well away from many who even care about baseball, much less the Cardinals, and
yes, gdm426, I am a newbie. And while I am a big enough Cards fan- with a dynamic enough ego- not to be completely turned off by my posts’ treatment today, I must say that it is not at all clear what qualifies as a ‘fanpost’ and what doesn’t.
Anyway, I really like the blog, even if it is a little overly bureaucratic at times. And I would still like for others to respond to the questions posted below.
ORIGINAL “FANPOST” FOLLOWS
The Padres, looking to cut even more corners apparently, have rescinded their contract offer to Trevor Hoffman. Hoffman is 41, has 554 career saves, and still possesses the nastiest changeup in the game. He pitched a career low 45.1 innings last year, not because he was injured, but because the Pads didn’t exactly set him up for a lot of saves. His K/BB ratio was friggin’ ridiculous (46/9). His ERA (3.77) was higher than it’s been since 1995 but that’s really just a sign of how consistently good the guy has been.
My initial reaction is to say who the hell wants a 41 year old closer? But that really doesn’t apply to him, seeing as his “out” pitch only gets up to the mid 70’s or so and he has a clean bill of health. So the biggest question I have, and one I would like others to address, is what it would take to get Hoffman in a ‘Cards uniform for the next year or two? And would it worth it?
He made $7.5 million last season and had a $4 million dollar offer withdrawn yesterday. My guess is that the offer was withdrawn as a favor to him (the least the sorry Pads ownership could do) to let other teams know that he is definitely available. I can’t see him signing for less than $5-$6 million + performance bonuses. Could we get him for 1 year? Would it be worth it to offer him 2 years? Are my numbers ridiculously low? It would be truly awesome having a back end combo in the bullpen of Motte, Perez, and Hoffman- I imagine coming in after the young fireballers would make his changeup even more effective.
by BustaCard on Nov 11, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't sweat it too much
Sometimes it just gets inundated with trade rumors and pet free agent signings, and then on top of there are duplicates (Chris Duncan to SF?, Duncan to Cleveland?, Duncan to….). Eventually it was decided that we’ll try to consolidate all that stuff, especially now in the offseason where rumors pop up every day. It looks like you may have taken a bit of a backlash against all that, when it isn’t really about you. I didn’t really see it all so can’t say for sure.
I am not really a board elder, but I have participated a little here and there. I read more often than that. People take pride in the forum and self police it quite a bit. That’s part of what makes it a good forum and what keeps it from being CardsTalk 2. Occasionally, it also means that a good poster, like you appear to be, gets a slap on the wrist. Don’t worry about it – your inputs here will be appreciated I am sure.
I don’t see why a new person can’t have a fanpost. They may have something with a lot of substance to share. Even if not they may generate discussion. And if they do neither, they are sure to be corrected and we can all move on pretty effortlessly.
by Merry CRasmus on Nov 11, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brother Bustsa
I think Hoffman would be perfect. 1yr deal, 2nd yr option. Bring back Springer too and let them pitch with Perez, McClellan, Kinney and our two new LOOGY’s Joe Biemel and Will Ohman.
TLR and Dunc are not ready to commit to Perez as the closer and Hoffman would be a great short term option. I’d go as high as $8M, so your $5M-$6M + incentives is in-line with my thinking.
For the record, I’d let Motte start the season in memphis as the closer there and he’d be the 1st guy called up when needed.
On a personal note, I feel bad your Fanpost got ignored – and am very glad you re-posted it here in the HotStove. I do wish you would have left it up though because I made a post to dunc4life that was flat out funny, I might never have that flash of wit again.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 11, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aw man, I was hoping it was more memorable than that.
especially for you. the post read:
“are we going to trade for Dan Uggla or not?!?!”
:)
a little levity
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, that
i almost crapped my pants because i was laughing so hard!
by dunc4life on Nov 12, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his name is daaaan uuuuugggggggllllllaaaaa
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in the hot stove seasons
comments about acquiring specific players are supposed to be put in the hot stove section, unless it looks like we’ve actually traded for or signed player X. it’s an anal-retentive culture thing that just “is”, because it kind of has to be, given the format of the site. Otherwise the good stuff gets lost really, really quickly.
Your post was a whole lot better than most of what has been thrown out here lately, but because it was a post about a specific player, it fell victim to the herd mentality (of which I’ve been a part) and got burned as a witch. Or turned into a newt, or whatever. It’s no big deal, it’s nothing personal, and hopefully you’ll stick around and have fun talking baseball with us and talking about Trevor Hoffman in the “hot stove” place, which you seem to have found, and where your comment will surely be appreciated properly.
To answer your other question, i believe the moderators can be found if you scroll all the way down. Lboros, azruavatar, chuckb, the red baron. I’d assume danup is also but he doesn’t seem to be listed.
BTW, get used to having the ego busted, because no one lets anyone, 5 posts or 5000, say anything without having a way to back it up here. Even the front page guys get called out if they make bad assumptions or talk out their butts about something.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe the best thing to do
would be to just lurk around for awhile and learn the details of the site. Ive been coming around here for a couple of years, but have only been posting for a few months now.
If you are having trouble with any acronyms, just google them. VORP= value over replacement player.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Nov 11, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude i wasn't dissing you
welcome aboard & i hope you like it enough to stick around.
i’m sorry your first post got jacked, but you gotta understand how things work around her bro. maybe someone needs start a newbie hand book page that you will be directed to after you sign up so you know what’s acceptable & what is not. i don’t know what else to tell you bro except to watch what others do & then fall in line. that’s how i learned the ropes. but don’t take it personally. about once a year we seam to have a problem with this when a lot of newbies sign up, then things settle down. and i’m sure this is one of those times.
again, welcome aboard.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all due respect
if you’ve “learned the ropes”, you should have been a bit more constructive in your initial reaction. that was way too harsh, imo. one of the reasons this is such a good blog is that most of the posters are respectful.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by TurdFerguson on Nov 12, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i know sometimes i can be a dick
i said i was sorry. i wasn’t trying to be a dick, i’m just tired of people not following the rules. without the rules & the good folks here who enforce those rules, VEB would blow up in a matter of days. and nobody wants that.
and if i have to be a dick sometimes to prove a point & that pisses some people off, you know what? i’m OK with that. i’ll be the bad guy, i’ll take one for the team & i’ll ruffle some feathers because that’s how much this site means to me.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Busta
I read your post and the comments yesterday. I went to login and comment, and it was gone. I felt bad. The worst thing that can happen when you post is no one comments at all. The second is they squabble about whether is it is worthy, and thirdly they squabble about where it should be. I apologize for the harsh treatment around here. That’s what I ment about fan snobbery. It seams that some folks here try to make others feel inferior or not worthy. I know I am not worthy. LOL. This is only Cardinal blog I visit even with the problems it is still the best one around.
by nybirdfan on Nov 12, 2008 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hoffman idea - wait it out
I would go for one year but wouldn’t get into a bidding war with other teams that ended up signing him for two years and more money. Trevor could end up like Lohse, just looking for work in mid February.
by ubeddie on Nov 12, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
disagree
Some of the best diaries we’ve had are from new guys. But maybe their first few (or even “all”, to prevent post-ism) diaries should have to be approved by a moderator before being posted?
On many forums, your first “X” posts have to be approved by a moderator before being posted. I don’t think there is anything like that here, but it should be easy enough to do given that there are at most 5 or 6 “good” diaries posted in a day. Assuming that the software allows you to do it, that is.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The one thing that is lame here
Is that when you sign up you have to wait a few days before you can actually post. I think it is supposed to stop trolls. Perfect example of the problem it causes is “Justin” the guy that has those great stats that Sky of Beyond the Box Score likes to use was going to post here when I put up my fanpost using his numbers. But he had to wait a couple days to do so.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 3:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that only on VEB ??
I have joined a couple of other blogs like the Padres just to see their take on the peavy trade and the Hoffman ordeal and there was no wait period but when I initially signed up through VEB there was a 2 day wait.
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 12, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if just VEB
But it is the only Sport Nation site to do it that I know of. I am subscribed to quite a few actually. It really needs to be taken down. Lets say a trade rumor pops up. I would like to see fans come over from other sites to make some kind of discussion with us. It really kills the buzz.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SBN sites can choose this length of "probation"
Most don’t have one, but I’ve come across a few that do (Angels? Dodgers?)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Nov 12, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can understand why
It is probably to prevent people coming over from other teams during game threads to talk trash. Now in the off season it probably should be removed.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hell, I signed up on another blog on here
(I think it was the Giants one), and they have a waiting period before you can even comment. Is that common? I don’t remember having to wait anywhere else on here.
Whatever, it is a brilliant freakin idea.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 12, 2008 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I had to wait two days before I could comment when I signed up. But it was no biggie for me cause I had been reading VEB for about two months before I joined, so two more days wasn’t gonna kill me.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should look at it
Give him a good offer on a one year deal. Maybe include an option for a second with a decent penalty for not exercising it. Be done with it and focus on the more pressing needs. Don’t lock up someone for multiple years at closer, and don’t trade farm assets for one either.
I like this development and think Mo ought to see what he is looking for.
by Merry CRasmus on Nov 11, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that Hoffman would be ideal for us.
Because of his age and that fact that he had a rather high era last year, despite great secondary numbers which are a more telling sign of how good he is, we could probably get him for a 1 or 2 year deal at about 5 mil a year plus incentives. He would be perfect in mentoring Perez and Motte and he would certainly stabilize our closer position in the present. The only question is whether or not he will retire next year, which i don’t think he will.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah,
i would love to have him, but there is talk the indians want him more. i would think that he would want to stay in the national league, so he has some chances to show Sandy Alderson/Kevin Towers/whomever that he still has plenty of gas left in the tank.
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but I think it would be a good fit if he was
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 11, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't see the logic of not going for him
If he is a bust, which judging by his history he prabably won’t be, we would only be losing a few mil and one year of badness.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah its not like we are strangers to this kind of thing
thank you Izzy for the precedent of having an expensive worthless closer
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 11, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, Joe Strauss
mentioned the other day that he wasn’t on the radar, i think that these people are just saying how awesome it would be if he was.
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of course if we have learned anything over the last year
it is not to take Strauss’ word as gospel
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 12, 2008 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt this is it
But could the Cards be leaking misinformation? Fein non-interest to not stir up the bidding, but negotiate behind the scenes? I usually detest these meda games that teams play, but if it benefits the Cards, I guess I don’t mind. Anyway, Hoff and AC/DC would be sweet.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Nov 12, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Got railroaded off of fanposts, so here is my post where everyone will be happy with it...
The Padres, looking to cut even more corners apparently, have rescinded their contract offer to Trevor Hoffman. Hoffman is 41, has 554 career saves, and still possesses the nastiest changeup in the game. He pitched a career low 45.1 innings last year, not because he was injured, but because the Pads didn’t exactly set him up for a lot of saves. His K/BB ratio was friggin’ ridiculous (46/9). His ERA (3.77) was higher than it’s been since 1995 but that’s really just a sign of how consistently good the guy has been.
My initial reaction is to say who the hell wants a 41 year old closer? But that really doesn’t apply to him, seeing as his “out” pitch only gets up to the mid 70’s or so and he has a clean bill of health. So the biggest question I have, and one I would like others to address, is what it would take to get Hoffman in a ‘Cards uniform for the next year or two? And would it be worth it?
He made $7.5 million last season and had a $4 million dollar offer withdrawn yesterday. My guess is that the offer was withdrawn as a favor to him (the least the sorry Pads ownership could do) to let other teams know that he is definitely available. I can’t see him signing for less than $5-$6 million + performance bonuses. Could we get him for 1 year? Would it be worth it to offer him 2 years? Are my numbers ridiculously low? It would be truly awesome having a back end combo in the bullpen of Motte, Perez, and Hoffman- I imagine coming in after the young fireballers would make his changeup even more effective.
by BustaCard on Nov 11, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way...
My vote above (Yes, for a MI [Yunel, Roberts, etc.]) was contingent on the Roberts side of the equation. Yunel is not nearly good enough to warrant trading away some of our best assets.
by BustaCard on Nov 11, 2008 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yunel is better than Roberts
He is younger and better with the glove. Plays a more premium position of SS over 2B. His bat seemed to be down compared to 07 more due to bad luck than anything. All his peripherals were solid and comparable to the ones in 07.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 3:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Roberts is better than Yunel
Where is the evidence that Yunel is better with the glove? The opposite is true- Roberts’ worst FP% since becoming a full time 2B in ‘04 is .985, Escobar’s FP% in his two years at SS is .975. BA and OBP% are a wash between the two and each will hit between 8-15 homers a year. Roberts, however, steals bases- 40 last year, 50 the year before. Compare that with Escobar’s average of 4 over the last two years.
Escobar may get the nod in some people’s head because of age and position, but I like Roberts for the Cards’ situation. We can have a mediocre MI defense with Escobar and ? (Miles, Lopez, Hudson) or a tight MI defense with Izturis and Roberts. Has anyone read that Roberts is available or being actively shopped? His name keeps popping up but I haven’t heard anything.
by BustaCard on Nov 12, 2008 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, fielding statistics...
(To start, I hope I’m not assuming too much, please don’t be offended if I’m telling you stuff you already know)
Anyway, I thought I should go ahead and say something before somebody else shouts “FIELDING PERCENTAGE IS DUMBZORS!!!” at you. Not that it is dumb, or that you’re dumb. But there are a lot of new and interesting (and confusing) fielding metrics out there now, which I am only somewhat familiar with. If I am not mistaken, fielding percentage only takes plays into account in which the defender actually gets to the ball. There’s a lot it does not tell you—such as, how often does the player make plays that others (or the average player, or whatever) would never have a chance? I would be interested in seeing how Roberts compares to Escobar on those, but suffice it to say there is a lot more to be taken into account that FP.
by mattybobo on Nov 12, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where would one locate...
these new fielding metrics?
by BustaCard on Nov 12, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not smart enough to find any other metrics, but
you can find Revised Zone Rating (RZR) and Out Of Zone (OOZ) at hardballtimes.com (the site also has a glossary that explains a lot of the stat terms you will run into on VEB). Maybe somebody in the know will enlighten both of us and reveal the source of some others.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Nov 12, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there are lots; again, I'm a novice at this
But I do know that the contemporary fielding metrics are generally considered important around here when it comes to evaluating defense. Other ones include UZR (I can’t remember the difference/relationship between Ultimate Zone Rating and Revised Zone Rating), Dewan’s plus/minus system, PMR (I’m very unfamiliar with this one, but the 2008 numbers were recently released) and probably others that I’m forgetting. You can usually find helpful but lengthy explanations for them too, if you google well.
by mattybobo on Nov 12, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I looked at the RZR and OOZ...
and we never should have let Placido Polanco go.
Both Escobar and Roberts look pretty solid defensively. So what good is FP%? Would it be safe to say that it’s a good indicator of how well a player makes the routine plays- most errors are either dropped balls or throwing errors, right? Looks like I gots some learnin’ ta do…
by BustaCard on Nov 12, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're pretty much on it with FP%
It is a good indicator of a player’s ability to use their glove and throw a ball, but has no way to account for a bad route, bad footwork, or a slow player that doesn’t get in position to make a play. It is also dependent on the game’s official scorer who determines subjectively whether or not a missed play is scored an error. However, it’s easy to determine and predates the other metrics, as such it is still widely used despite it’s limitations.
And I completely agree that Polanco would have looked fantastic in the middle of our defense for the last couple of years.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Nov 12, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Escobar was considered Top 5 in defense at short?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is
He’s just not the tops in fielding percentage, which we all know is a bad way to measure defensive prowess.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
The best situation for the Cardinals, defensively, would be Escobar at SS and Kennedy at 2B. Both of those guys are in the top 3 in their positions in the big leagues defensively. The problem is that the team still doesn’t have a leadoff hitter. I think I would rather platoon Skip/Barton in the leadoff spot and have Escobar’s youth and tremendous upside over having Roberts and Izturis in the middle infield (which would still be great defensively). Considering that Roberts is going to cost at least as much as Escobar and is 10 years older, I don’t see how that makes sense if Yunel is available.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But...
Both Roberts and Izturis were in the top three RZR and OOZ (as far as I can tell) and I can see TLR salivating over a Izturis- Roberts 9-spot, leadoff combo… speed and defense (neither Escobar or Kennedy provide speed- accept maybe if you count the speed at which AK will be leaving the STL area this offseason)
by BustaCard on Nov 12, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong
But MIFer’s don’t age well at all and Roberts is on the wrong side of 30
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you have to consider
where Colby will fit into that lineup, because that may be your leadoff hitter right there. which puts skip somewhere around 6/7
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 12, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rasmus' spot in the lineup
He’s the perfect 2 hole hitter in a TLR lineup. He’s got power, speed, and a high OBP. I don’t think he’s a prototypical leadoff hitter because of his pop, although he may get stuck there if the club can’t find an option in the middle infield.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we get escobar
then we we most likely keep kenned who is great defensively
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good points
I think it might be a good choice too. He had a good second half. Everything but the homers was in line with his norms, and he only gave up 1 homer in the 2nd half.
I imagine we could keep it to 1 or 2 years, which leaves the door open for our young arms if they show well. I think it is worth making a play at.
by Merry CRasmus on Nov 11, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good post.
Dumb that it was removed.
I like the Hoffman idea if he came cheap.
by paposse on Nov 11, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
some notes on hoffman:
1) he’s old.
2) interestingly, his K/9 last year (9.13!) was the highest it’s been since 2001. His BB/9 was lower than it has been since 2004 and in his entire 15 year career, it’s only been lower than 2008 twice. HR/9 spiked a bit. Was he just throwing it down the middle hoping to get by on park effects?
Because:
3) he gave up 7 HR in petco and 1 HR away, in about twice as many innings at home. After giving up a 3R HR to Berkman on the second day of the season, he had a 3.09 ERA the rest of the way. Every other HR hit against him all year was a solo HR. Only one resulted in a blown save, though 2 others earned him losses. He had a 1.6 ERA in appearances in which he did not give up home runs (most useless stat ever?)
4) his average fastball speed (86) was actually faster than it has been since at least 2005, which is the earliest that data is available on fangraphs.
Dunno if he’d play anywhere other than SD, or if he’d accept an incentive-laden deal, but I’d take him on a 1Y deal if nothing else so that Mo can say “I got us a closer” and not be pressured to trade for a Street or sign a Fuentes. He’s a type B and if he doesn’t work out, we have YP and MH jr and Josh Frickin Kinney to take over…
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 12, 2008 2:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the thing that worries me
is that if he “doesn’t work out” we’re most likely in the same situation as last year. Where YP gets denied by a vet that clearly isn’t working out.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 12, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, d4l
since you seem to have assumed the mantle of “hot stove fan post guy”, can you put up another one when this one gets to about 250-300 posts or so? Gets pretty slow to load…
Thanks
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 11, 2008 6:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Giles
Is now a 10 and 5 man. The Cards are not one of the teams on his list that he has approved to be traded to. (Although, maybe something could be worked out, but it would likely require more money.)
Also, I believe Giles has something in his contract that says that he get $2MM more if he is traded…However, I believe that makes his contract 1 year at $11MM. I think he is one of the most underrated players in baseball and has been screwed by his home ballpark.
I am in favor of the trade for Greene, but I wouldn’t give up a lot for him. (for instance, Ludwick)
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
by Elvis on Nov 11, 2008 6:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Giles, SoCal boy
He doesn’t care about winning, that’s why he nixed the trade to the Cubs last year. Hmmm…first place team vs. last place team. “I’ll stay in sunny So Cal.” He is riding it out there and will not approve any trade.
As far as Greene is concerned, I wouldn’t mind getting him. Looks like Padres are looking to dump salary, and we should be able to pick him up with Mather/Jones type of prospects.
by Numero Uno Birdos on Nov 11, 2008 8:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
well, it isn't that Giles doesn't want to win
He’s from San Diego, maybe he just wants to stay in San Diego for the rest of the season. Maybe he has something against the Cubs. Maybe he just doesn’t like Chicago. Point is, do you have any evidence that he doesn’t want to win?
Also, trading Jones for Greene as well as taking on salary is ridiculous. that is way to much for him. Maybe Mather, but only if we have to eat half of his salary.
by dunc4life on Nov 11, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking
he didn’t want the limited playing time in Boston, where JD Drew was the main right-fielder. Also, perhaps he has no desire to go to the AL and face the (sometimes) steep learning curve of facing all new pitchers and teams. Just a guess.
by spants on Nov 11, 2008 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giles
I think he needed to finish the year in SD to become a 10 and 5 guy….getting dealt to BOS would have prevented that AND confined him to a part-time role off the bench. Seems like a good reason to finish the year in SD, last place or no.
by siddfynch on Nov 11, 2008 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
giles took something like a $10M discount
to re-sign with the padres in 2005. It’s pretty mean to him to criticize him for not wanting to be traded from the team he gave such a discount to.
Agree, mather and jones are too much to give up for greene unless someone else is really wanting him and you think he’s the only guy that fits.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's other reasons Giles takes into account for staying in SoCal
none of which i’m going to go into now because they involve women. that’s all we really need to know anyway.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 11, 2008 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's nothing wrong with that
even in california :/
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
women make the world go round
if you don’t believe that, then i feel sorry for you.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, yes
just making a joke at this silly state’s expense.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 12, 2008 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but that silly state of your has some if the finest examples
i envy you. the o h i o leaves a lot to be desired sometimes
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if the Pads are having a firesale
would they trade Young?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Nov 12, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Atkins to reds?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/11/rockies-talking.html
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Nov 11, 2008 9:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
why?
They already have good, young third baseman, Edwin Encarnacion. I guess they might move Atkins to a new position, but first base is occupied.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HOT! PEAVY TO CUBS?
That’s the latest buzz in Chicago tonight. Could be announced tomorrow.
For Marshall, Pie, Vitters and Fontenot, supposedly. Who knows?
Is this something Mo should react to if it happens, or ignore it and wait for the disabled lists to come out?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 11, 2008 10:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
We aren't gonna catch Chicago next year anyways, sorry for the pessimism
But I still think that we should make a trade that improves us in a position of need. If Peavy is going to the Cubs than that means Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar are available. I don’t think that they are the best options to get in a trade at MIF (Uggla, Ellis, Zobrist all seem to be of better value) but I do think that Moz is gonna trade for one of them soon.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean value as in total value
This is more of an opinion. Ellis though was definitely better then Johnson at second though in terms of total value, even though he had a terrible year offensively. I think that to get Johnson or Escobar we would have to give up Luddy and wouldn’t would get anything else in the deal. If we traded for Ellis or Zobrist then we would get a good young starter if we gave them Ludwick.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i wasn't replying to you
I am wondering where the peavy trade info was found
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 11, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was reported on WGN
It’s not in print yet.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 2:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Booo!!!!
How many more deals can one team make in a 3 year period?
At least we know that if the Cubs do win the W.S. in the next year or two, there won’t be a team in existence by 2011.
Plus, don’t they “love” Dempster and Woody? Marmol is nice, but even Chris Perez has more effective pitches than him.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 11, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
what I meant by “existence” was the fact that the Cubs will be eating contracts like crazy and the farm will be more bare than my grandparents cupboard during the Great Depression.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 11, 2008 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By then they will have a new owner
that could care less about bad contracts and just go out and buy more good players.
I don’t think the Cubs are going to be a last place team anytime soon. They are going to spend and spend until they finally win a championship.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Nov 12, 2008 3:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reminds me of the scene in Trading Places
“Get out there and buy, buy!”
Then an hour later after they’ve been ruined, “Get back out there and sell, SELLLLL!”
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marmol is rediculously good
He allowed something like 40 hits in 86 innings, while striking out over 120. That is pure dominance. Plus his slider is way better than Perez’s right now.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know Marmol is dominant
I know his stats, and I know how effective he is when well rested.
But he is at all times a grip away from losing his slider, and his fastball is nothing more than show.
Perez at least can USE his other pitch.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 12, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marmols numbers clearly don't reflect what you are saying
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we must go back to the original statement
I said “Marmol is nice” I said this because He HAS NO SECOND PITCH THAT HE CAN USE EFFECTIVELY. Name one closer that remained completely dominant by getting away with one pitch, without using his other pitches, even if they be mediocre.
Even with people like Hoffman, or (though he isn’t a closer) Chris Young…..among others, they may only have one money pitch, but if they use their arsenal correctly, the rest of their pitches can become much tougher to hit.
Marmol has gotten away with just a slider for a while now, and many many times, I saw him get out of trouble because the batter couldn’t hold up on a ball.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 12, 2008 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore
This leads to the thought that Marmol should not be the Cubs closer next year, and Woody needs to come back.
But for now, enough about the cubs, we are Cards fans.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 12, 2008 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
How many of his K’s came with his slider outside of the strike zone? Marmol may be nasty, but he doesn’t get many called strike 3’s.
Of course, someone can look up those numbers and prove me wrong, I didn’t look it up, but I did watch a lot of Cubs games this year.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 12, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs give up this much for Peavy
They are welcome to him. Losing Vitters especially, would be huge.
All that said, I will believe this when I see it.
ALSO, the Cardinals should not make moves based on what other teams do. You have a plan, and you stick with it. If the Cubs spend $200 million a year, then that’s their choice. You don’t need to spend a mint (example: Rays) to win.
by JWO on Nov 12, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree 99%
but if you are in a division that has some monster lefthanded or righthanded hitters, especially power hitters, it is vital to get a loogy or roogy to shut the door on those guys in crunchtime (the cant let this guy beat me philosophy. Fortunately for us, there is no APOOGY (Albert Pujols One Out GuY)). But i agree, personnel moves should not be reactionary, but always with an eye on your team and your situation, whether it be looking to the future or a win-now mindset.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on Nov 12, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A good one
Did you come up with APOOGY or has it been around? Brad Lidge is not one, although he is awesome. Brandon Becky (sic) thinks in his mind that he is a APOOGY.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Nov 12, 2008 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am proud
to claim sole ownership of the term “APOOGY”. A rare stroke of linguistic talent that will probably be a highlight of my VEB commenting.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on Nov 12, 2008 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brad Lidge
would be a perfect APOOGY except for the one home run.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
apoogy = pure brilliance
well done jack
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Id prefer APNOGY
Albert Pujols Not Out GuY
by Woodwork on Nov 12, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but the Rays plan was to be horrible for years and year to build up enough picks to be good.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Nov 12, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
future is a relative term.
1 year, 3 years, 10 years, forever, its all relative :)
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on Nov 12, 2008 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not true.
What picks suddenly pulled through between 2007 and 2008? Evan Longoria. That’s it. Andrew Friedman’s been at the helm for less than two years and he’s just doing things differently than before. And by differently, I mean smarter. Yes, those high draft picks helped. But that meme is being completely overplayed.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Nov 12, 2008 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
was there even
a real plan in place before Friedman arrived? I had very little prior knowledge of the Rays FO situation before this year but it seemed that there was no consensus on how to build the team. At least thats how it seemed from an uninterested outsiders perspective.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on Nov 12, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about?
David Price
James Shields
BJ Upton
Delmon Young (brought them Matt Garza)
Rocco Baldelli
Andy Sonnanstine
Those are only off the top of my head, but several of their other players were draft products, too. But all of those guys above were drafted by the Rays and all pulled through this year. That’s one of the best drafted teams in baseball right now.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Nov 12, 2008 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not certain
but I think Price is the only one of those drafted by Friedman.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
But if you look at their history, they have employed the old Jocketty model in the past, by trading away their highly touted prospects for major league talent. With the exception of the Victor Zambrano for Scott Kazmir deal in which they fleeced the Mets, very few of those deals had worked out.
Friedman has made two very good deals (Young for Garza, getting Dioner Navarro) but his strength is that he’s allowing the young kids to come up and develop, which they’ve done very well. He’s also been pretty lucky with free agent acquisitions (Pena, Wheeler) that have panned out for him when they never panned out for his predecessor.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 13, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point was that Longoria was the only one to contribute to the 2008 team but not the 2007 team.
I was trying to point out why the team suddenly improved from 2007 to 2008.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Nov 13, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
trade thoughts
Just a random idea but what about trading Kennedy and Joel Pineiro to the Mets for Luis Castillo (if the Mets pick up some of the 6 mil per for the last two years of his contract).
The Mets are ready to run Castillo out of town but it seems no one is willing to take him for the remaining years and money he is owed. Kennedy gives them an everyday 2B who they would see as an overall upgrade over Castillo in the field and at the plate. Besides the Mets have enough money to eat Pineiro’s salary for one year as a possible swingman in their rotation.
Castillo has had injury problems, only playing in 87 games last year, but he can be platooned with Miles or be replaced by Miles for a time if injured. Castillo did steal 17 bases last year while playing only half a season and could be an ideal 9th place hitter in LaRussa’s lineup. The Cards could save at least 5 million on this coming year’s payroll which could help put them over the hump in landing an impact player in free agency. And even being stuck with Castillo for 2 more years for say around 3 million per year isn’t a huge chunk to eat while giving Mo time to groom a younger long term answer at the position. And I don’t think anyone could underestimate the value of taking Pineiro out of the starting rotation. Boggs/Todd could be probably put up better numbers for the league minimum.
by block writer on Nov 11, 2008 11:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why would the Mets eat part of castillos contract when the cards are dumping just as much salary?
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 11, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The way I thought of it was:
2009 – Mets pay Kennedy 4 mil and Pineiro 7.5 and the Cardinals pay Castillo’s 6 million
2010 and 2011 – Mets and Cardinals split his salary at 3 mil apiece
The Mets take on an extra 5.5 million in 09 payroll for Kennedy and Pineiro but only end up paying 6 million of the total 18 million Castillo is owed for the next 3 years.
The Cards save 5.5 million in 09 and pay a total of 12 million to Castillo for the next 3 years.
by block writer on Nov 12, 2008 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Piniero is fine as a 5 starter
He is healthy. He can pitch deep into games if needed because his pitch count is so low, although he does give up a lot of hits. He was a solid pitcher in most of his career before last year, so i think we could expect a low to mid 4’s era which wouldn’t that bad out of our five spot. He only has one more year left i think so he wouldn’t be a detrement to our future plans. Also kennedy is better than castillo.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on one thing
that Kennedy is overall better than Castillo – but I really can’t see Pineiro improving from the 5.15 ERA in 148 innings he pitched last year to an era in the low to mid 4’s. As a starter over the course of a full season he hasn’t posted an era that low since 2003 with Seattle. Sure his contract comes off the books after next year but I guess I’d rather give one of the young guys a chance to compete in the rotation sooner than that, and I think it gives us a better chance to win in 09 as well.
by block writer on Nov 12, 2008 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Piniero pitches deep into games?
When did this happen? I think I saw him get to the seventh inning twice all season. If you mean “leave him in so he gets pummelled in a bad outing like we used to do with Jason Marquis to save our bullpen” deep then I agree. Guy averaged less than 6 innings a start last year, that doesn’t qualify as “deep” in my book.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
piniero
went 7 innings five times last year. He had some terrific starts and quite a few scarey ones. That’s why I wrote the Dr. Piniero and Mr. Hyde comment. I am still wondering how, if he is so craptastic, that he can suck it up and pitch really well sometimes. I would certainly like to see him pitch more like Dr. Piniero and less like Mr. Hyde.
by nybirdfan on Nov 12, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I really don't want to the defender of Joel Pineiro
I think we get a little too much of a mob mentality regarding his 2008 performance.
His innings per start were very similar to Kyle Lohse, Braden Looper, and Todd Wellemeyer as they were all pretty much six inning pitchers. His FIP was 4.78 while Looper was 4.58 and Wellemeyer was 4.56. He just needs to do a better job of keeping the ball in the park, strand a few more runners and he will be useful.
I still don’t think he was worth the contract they gave him, but he should be in the mix for a #5. He has some chance to improve a bit.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, but I disagree.
Lohse, Looper, and Wellemeyer were all good for 6+ innings a start this year, Piniero was not. Those three also had stretches of starts where they were really, really good. I don’t remember a Piniero string of starts that even approached that. He can’t consistently go out and give a quality effort each time out, and until that happens he’ll always be a mediocre to terrible option. It was the same way when he was in Seattle, just he had more good starts for them than he has for the Cardinals.
By stating FIP are you saying that Joel wasn’t as lucky with the defense behind him as those other guys? His ERA and WHIP are considerably higher than any of those three guys.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Splitting hairs a bit, aren't ya?
Yes, Lohse and Looper exceeded six innings per start at 6.06 and 6.03 innings per start. Wellemeyer was at 5.99, but I’ll subtract out the 20-2 debacle when he shouldn’t have started so his number jumps to 6.07. Pineiro averaged 5.82 innings per start. Do you really think that extra out is that significant? If Pineiro had gotten one more out every fifth start he would have averaged 6 innings per start as well.
Regarding FIP versus ERA/WHIP – I am pretty sure you know which stat is a better indicator of performance. Yes, FIP does, by definition, purport to take luck out of ERA and WHIP. I don’t think many people around here would argue that ERA/WHIP is a better predictor than FIP and I am a little surpised you are doing that.
So, I’ll stick by my original post that Pineiro was a lot closer to the rest of the rotation (except Wainer) than most people are willing to admit. A couple of less home runs and a few more stranded runners and he would be virtually the same pitcher.
He was about a .500 pitcher and that should be good enough to be in the fifth starter mix. He had 11 quality starts and was just one out short of a 12th one in 25 starts. Looper had 15 in 33 starts.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not splitting hairs
That’s kinda what you’re doing. Wainer was about one out better than the three guys you mentioned, so you’re counting that out as significant for him, but I can’t do it for Piniero? Hmmmmmm….
I didn’t say that FIP was a bad predictor, I simply asked whether your use of that was inferring that he was “unlucky”. I don’t think he was unlucky at all, considering that his ERA and WHIP are both considerably higher than league average. He also gave up a ton of home runs — defense doesn’t factor into those. FIP is a better predictor of performance than ERA and WHIP alone, but I don’t think that you can ignore his horrible ERA and WHIP just because his FIP isn’t as bad as those two measures. That’s “glass half full” optimism and shouldn’t be stated as fact.
Should he be the 5th starter? Absolutely, unless the team can find a cheaper alternative for that spot and Carpenter comes back healthy. He’s making $7.5M for 2009, so the club should try to get some return on that investment.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I gave Wainer a break
because he was obviously a better pitcher than all the others and because he was a 7+ IP pitcher before he got hurt. I would expect him to return to that level of performance unless there is some residue from the injury.
So you would agree with me that how deep Pineiro went into games would be a non-issue as compared to Lohse, Looper, and Wellemyer?
As far as the “ton of home runs”, if JP had given up a total of three less HRs over his 25 starts, or about one less every two months, he would have had the same HR/9 ratio as Looper and Wellemeyer. It has been well chronicled here that a principle reason for Lohse’s success was that he was able to keep the ball in the park far better than he had in the past, so his 2008 number was probably out of reach.
I really don’t understand your logic regarding FIP vs. ERA/WHIP. Just exactly what would you say explains the difference between his ERA and his FIP? You mentioned HRs, but that is a part of the FIP calculation. I think most people would consider him unlucky, just like he was lucky in 2007 when his ERA was almost a full run better than his FIP. BTW, his 2007 FIP was slightly worse than in 2008 even though he had a 3.96 ERA
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
scary thought
pineiro was actually quite lucky on ground balls. Opposing batters hit .170 on ground balls in play. Team average was .222, so over 247 AB’s, he should have given up 12.84 more hits on GB’s than he actually did.
He gave up 3.58 more hits than expected on fly balls, and was right on the team average for line drives. So overall, he should probably have actually been worse, by (ERA-FIP), than he was.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 12, 2008 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I am not a JP fan, but I don’t really see a lot of better options coming available unless one of the kids takes a pretty major step up. So I am trying to come up with reasons why he is not as bad as everyone seems to think. Maybe he is.
I want to believe McClellan could be the answer, but I don’t think it would be prudent to add that much work to his arm.
Maybe Boggs will learn that elusive third pitch or Mort or Todd can make the jump, but I am afraid the only real in-house option is on the shelf with TJ surgery.
If it comes down to Pineiro or Thompson, or maybe both if Carp can’t get healthy, then I guess the boys will just have to hit on those days.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is exactly what I was trying to point out
I just didn’t have anywhere to get the data. I just don’t have any confidence in him improving his 2008 performance.
As far as FIP goes, giveml, I just don’t like that people feel it is the end all, be all of pitching statistics because it factors out defense. If you look at his WHIP compared to the other three guys it’s quite a bit higher in 2008, so he’s giving up more hits and, consequently, more runs. I don’t think your can totally discount the ERA and WHIP measures just because his FIP is better than those, as I said above. I also don’t think that because his ERA and WHIP were worse than his FIP it means that he is automatically “unlucky”. As Sleepy says, he was actually luckier than his statistics probably show last year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 13, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you can flip that coin
in another direction. Looking at the exact same dataset, the team allowed a slash line of .213/.207/.565/.772 on fly balls while JP allowed a slash line of .354/.347/.952/.1.299 on fly balls. That is at least as strong counter argument on the luck side. Not all of that can be explained by HRs.
Look, I don’t want to defend Pineiro, as I stated above I am just trying to feel a little less sick about him as a likely option.
So, answer me this, do you think his ERA being almost a full run below his FIP in 2007 (in StL) was luck?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I do
Mostly because you’re only looking at St. Louis numbers there, which is an incredibly small sample size. He also hadn’t ever pitched in the National League, so there were a lot of hitters that hadn’t seen him.
I also think the transition to Duncan helped him a little bit, because of the intensive gameplanning gave him a better idea of how to get guys out then the batters had of an idea of how to approach at bats against him. I think his 2008 numbers are generally as good as he can do in the long run.
Like I said above, I don’t see him getting much better in 2009 or beyond.,
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 13, 2008 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anecdotally
and i am in between metings right now so i have no time to look up the specifics (I just remember because I was at the game), but in pineiro’s first start of the year in SF he gave up something like 4 ER after Rico Washington flubbed an easy 2-out ground ball to 3B.
Those should have been UER. Had they been correctly scored, his era at the end of the season would have been something like 4.90.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 13, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is the kind of stuff
I am talking about. I have no illusion that JP is going to morph into something different. But if he could get the ERA down to where the FIP has been he has a chance of being a slightly above .500 pitcher in the five spot. I am bullish on the kid pitchers, but I don’t see a quality 2009 starter in the bunch. I haven’t actually seen Todd or Mortensen pitch, but it doesn’t seem likely they will be ready out of the gate.
I am not sure what it would translate to, but in 2008 JP had the worst DER behind him of any starter.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would the Cards...
want to add another useless overpaid 2nd baseman when relief of the current bad contract is just a year away? Adding Castillo would at 3 mil/year would be 6 million, which is 2 million more than being stuck with Kennedy.
by Jumsy on Nov 12, 2008 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This has nothing to do with Hot Stove
but I thought Leach’s words were quite hilarious in this article.
I love how at the end he is subtly saying that if Al doesn’t win the MVP, there is a certain group of idiots that needs to have their heads unscrewed.
Hope I’m not putting words in your mouth Matt!!!!
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 12, 2008 12:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can see how you might interpret it that way
It’s becoming very clear that if the Baseball Writers’ Association of America doesn’t select Pujols as National League MVP next week, it will be a single voice in the wilderness.
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 12, 2008 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade thoughts...
I think the Cards should send Ankiel and Kennedy to the White Sox for Javier Vasquez (as long as the Sox eat all of Kennedy’s salary). (If you are wondering why the Sox would want Kennedy – they are moving Ramirez to SS and need a ML proven 2B) This would result in having Vasquez for 7.5 million this season and 11.5 million next (not bad for a sp who can go 200 ip each year). The 11.5 million for next year would be offset by losing Pineiro’s 7.5 in 2010. That leaves the Cards Rotation as Waino, Lohse, Wellemeyer, Pineiro, and Vasquez this season (Carp could replace Pineiro if servicable). This would give the Cardinals a reliable rotation that could give the Cards a chance to win day in and day out.
The Cards should then sign Orlando Hudson to play 2B. He is a solid defender and a solid hitter.
The Cards will still need to address a lefty reliever (Beimel, Marte, Affeldt, Embree).
The last piece would be a quality SS. Worst case scenario would be re-signing Izturis. With David Freese waiting for a shot at the bigs, Glaus could become tradeable (would free up some money as well the ability to gain a player for the future). The Angels have Brandon Wood and are in need of a 3B (Figgins can move to the OF since Anderson’s option was not picked up).
Possible Lineup: Hudson, Rasmus, Pujols, Ludwick, Glaus/Freese, Mather/Schumaker, Molina, Pitcher, Izturis/Wood. (If acquiring Wood, switch Schumaker and Wood in the lineup)
by Jumsy on Nov 12, 2008 12:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just looked up Wood's minor league stats.
And I am quite amazed. What would it take to get him, anyone?
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Nov 12, 2008 1:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea of getting vasquez
He has excellent stuff really and throws strikes. He still has the ability to be 1 or 2 starter. Our rotation then would be WW, Carp, Lohse, Vasquez and Wellymeyer. That would be an incredibly balanced rotation with 3 potential aces in the mix. If Carp isn’t healthy all year than we could use Brad Thompson, who while much beleaguered over the past few seasons, has a 19 and 11 career record with a 4.24 era. His secondary numbers like walks allowed and hits allowed are very similar to those of Braden Looper. Thompson though wouldn’t cost us nearly as much. I would also advocate giving McClellan some starts as he has the stuff and the command to be a good starter in the future.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 1:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a nice idea
but why do you think the Sox want a couple of one-year rentals for Vasquez?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 2:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The deal
would probably be contingent on Ankiel signing a long term deal with Chicago, and I’m not sure that he’d do that.
I’m very interested in getting Vazquez, I think he’d be a huge asset the next couple of seasons in St. Louis
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think they would prefer skip
they have had rumors about being interested in willy taveras
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Nov 12, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson might not even make the Team
Or he will be traded in the off season. Just no room for him anymore and he is out of options.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 12, 2008 4:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he is still young
just 26 years old so we should probably start him in the minors. he still can be a useful pitcher for us, and remember that he was a top prospect for us a couple of years ago. I don’t think we should just trade him for a no talent shlub who will never impact our team.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
out of options
can’t go to the minors. He would be a FA and someone would grab him up.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson was only a "top prospect"
because our farm was so abysmal. He’s a marginal player worth like 1 WAR. There’s no reason to overpay for something like that when you can snag it for free. coughJackCasselcough
by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We clearly shouldn't overpay him
we aren’t he’s making like 1-2 mil a year. he is a solid pitcher
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right but once he hits arb
it’s time to jump ship. I think that is at the end of next season.
by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why this year we should keep in in memphis for depth
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These guys float around all the time.
If you can keep Thompson fine but he’s not someone you should have any serious qualms about losing.
by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2008 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brad
Thompson made $414k in 2008 and is arbitration eligible this year. Now – I have NO idea what type of money he would make in arbitration and he is out of options. I would assume he is expendable.
Per Cots here is the list of arbitration players along with their service time.
Rick Ankiel of 5.033
Chris Duncan of 2.144 *
Randy Flores lhp 4.130
Tyler Johnson lhp 3.005
Ryan Ludwick of 3.109
Aaron Miles inf 5.027
Brad Thompson rhp 3.110
Todd Wellemeyer rhp 5.009
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how Thompson could be expendable unless
we obtain another SP or we know Carp is going to be healthy. Don’t see a lot of SPs in the 2009 pipeline and all we have right now is Carp, Wainer, Lohse, Wellemeyer, and Pineiro.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Brad Thompson's grow on trees.
Jack Cassel is a free agent. The Padres grabbed Cha Seung Baek for free last year in May after the Mariners DFA’d him. Joel Pineiro is probably no better than Thompson at this point and Mitchell Boggs likely isn’t more than a few runs worse.
This kind of depth just isn’t that hard to find for free.
by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Thompson will get enough
in arb to move beyond being free? I am all for bringing in some other free guys to see what sticks.
I hope you are right about Boggs, but I don’t think he can be a starter with the stuff he showed last year. I like the tools he has, but he needs another weapon or two. Lefties kill him and he can’t make it three times through the order.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 13, 2008 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
January Bargain Bin
It may not be a sexy plan but Buster Olney is SPECULATING the economy will affect the free agent market, and there will be bargain shopping available in January. I think we will be able to add a pitcher as protection for Carp.
Somebody has to go.
Current RH Bullpen options:
1. Closer – TBD
2. Frankiln – Could be a Swing Guy – has experience starting
3. Perez
4. McClellan
5. Thompson
6. Kinney – looked good in limited action
7. Motte – I’m guessing AAA
8. Springer – possible, no room yet
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 13, 2008 1:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The pen is a bloody mess.
- Thompson will have to be waived or traded; there’s no room left for him.
- I would like to trade Franklin to make room for Kinney or Motte, though I doubt that happens.
- Springer’s our most reliable reliever but also the oldest and most expensive. What to do?
- McClellan could be a “swing man,” or he could be a starter or he could remain in his current role. Is there any way Tony keeps six RH relievers? I doubt it.
There’s a mess of talent in there. Some is rising, some is fading. But it has to be sorted out, and some one out of this bunch is going to have to be a mop-up long reliever type if Thompson isn’t around. There’s work to be done.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 13, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all due respect to our bullpen prospects
but our relievers get overworked like ned yost driving cc sabathia. i think it would be a great advantage to keep some of our minor leaguers as a reservoir of talent for later in the season.
round about july, it would be great to call up a fresh motte.
so i don’t know that we need to make room for anybody.
by tom s. on Nov 13, 2008 2:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea how much he'll make in arb.
I don’t follow that process closely enough (nor do I agree with the apparent decision making on what they value) to speculate. But Thompson for more than $2M is not something I’d be willing to do.
Everything you said about Boggs can also be applied to Thompson. The idea that Thompson’s skillset is unique or hard to find is all I’m trying to debunk here. It’s not that he doesn’t have value or is a worthless player; it’s that he’s a very marginal player that you shouldn’t spend money on. Put Boggs in the same longman role out of the pen and he’d be fine — heck, he might even be well suited to a role like that to start off.
by azruavatar on Nov 13, 2008 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't let gdm426
see this discussion about Thompson…..Puppy Kicker is his guy
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you know i was trying to stay out of it runninred
seeing how i’m so biased. heh
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm convinced that if PK
is not on the roster, we will have multiple games delayed when the grounds crew is overwhelmed by all of the puppies running wild on the field.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Nov 12, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those kicked puppies...
…while tragic, probably saved lives. And PK’s existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don’t want me in that bullpen, you NEED me in that bullpen.
by Merry CRasmus on Nov 12, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, lol!
I had to learn this monologue for a freshman drama class in high school…ah…memories. (The actual one from A Few Good Men, not the PK version ;)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Nov 12, 2008 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldn't mind taking thorton off the white sox hands
he throws heat and is a lefty
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 12, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would trade ludwick for vasquez and thorton
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think i'd be ok with that
do they need an outfielder though?…dye and quentin seem set at the corners?
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 12, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure that they would love ludwick
you can never have too many good players, and ludwick is cheap and is solid on defense, if they get him they might trade away dye who costs a lot more and is aging.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 12, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny Williams
Isn’t his recent method of operation to trade veteren pitchers for young pitchers? I’m thinking mostly of:
-Neil Cotts for Carlos Vasquez and David Aardsma
-Freddie Garcia for Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd
but he did also trade
-Jon Garland for Orlando Cabrera
So he might trade a pitcher for a position player. Unfortunately, my understanding is the Sox are trying to get faster while looking for a 3B and a CF, so I doubt they would have much interest in Ludwick unless they trade Dye for the speed they are looking for.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just say no
to Orlando Hudson. He is not a solid defender by any available metric. It is debatable as to whether he is a solid hitter. Definitely looks like his numbers are inflated by Chase Field. Plus, he is coming of a significant wrist injury. Not an upgrade over what we have.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Nov 12, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto as trading partner?
I was just looking at the Blue Jays roster and noticed something. They seem to have a severe dislike of righthanded pitching. They must have like 20 southpaws between AAA and the majors- starters and relievers. They also have a pretty nice 2B in Joe Inglett- he’s 30 but has a nice glove with good offensive #s. Seems like Mo should be able to raid their lefty stash and address 2B because they also don’t have, besides Vernon Wells, that impressive of an outfield- or any depth at 3B behind Rolen. They also have great depth in ML ready SP.
If we sent Ludwick, makes sense that we could really stock up on young pitching, starting and relieving, and bring in Inglett. Of course, they’d really have to make that a sweet deal with at least one, if not more, of their young SPs (McGowan, Marcum, Litsch, Purcey), lefty bullpen help (Downs, Carlson, Tallet) and Inglett. We could even throw in Kennedy to give them something to fall back on at 2B or Freese/Craig to give them something to develop at 3B.
I’d prefer, however, to package other OFers besides Luddy (Ank, Schu, Barton, Duncan) with a Kennedy and/or one of the 3B prospects to get the same thing done. It just seems that our teams are really well matched to be trading partners. The Jays need young OFers and depth at 3B (they need players with power) and we need young SP and lefty relief- I guess the Jays make good trading partners with just about anyone on second thought.
Getting specific, I would like to see a deal where we sent Ank, Barton, Freese and Kennedy for Marcum, Downs and Inglett. Thoughts?
by BustaCard on Nov 12, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i may be completely wrong about this
but did’t marcum go down with shoulder problems last season? maybe that was another toronoto starter
not sure who inglett is, but downs and marcum(if healthy) are nice players…i’d personally like to keep freese as our backup corner infielder, but this trade looks doable
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 12, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another piece of confidential information pried out of Mo!
by Ken Rosenthal: “The Cardinals plan to add one or two lefthanded relievers, probably free agents.”
In further developments, the Yankees are interested in CC Sabathia, winter is coming and the Russians still don’t like us.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 10:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yea i just heard that the Yukon territory is cold
whoda thunk it?
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 12, 2008 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You've just qualified to work at Fox Sports. Congratulations!
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Winter is still coming?
Damn Al Gore – he had me fooled!
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, stop it...
…you’re messing with my world view there!!!
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 12, 2008 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
According to these numbers the second and third best relievers in all of baseball are FA this offseason.
Guess who they are before looking . . . I’m betting you wont get them both right!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 2:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The best was (obviously)
Brad Lidge. I will go with Kevin Rodriguez and Russ Springer.
This is a trick question, isn’t it?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sort of
I find it interesting that one left handed reliever who happens to be a closer and is often accused of being over-valued ranks so high
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Over-Valued
doesn’t that just mean the Cardinals would probably be better off spending that money elsewhere? Assume his new contract will be between 3yr/$24 and 4yrs/$40M range, that $8M-$10M per year would be better spent on the MI since we have Perez and Motte – either of which are projected to be the Cardinals closer by 2010 and will only cost ~$400k for a few years?
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not
supporting a Brian Fuentes signing. I just think that it is interesting that his performance ranks so high. I do think Mo is better off spending the money on the more pressing issues you bring up. I just get a sense from some comments I’ve read about Fuentes that there are some people who feel he isn’t very good. With him closing games out in 2008 the Cardinals probably would have been playing in October.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Telling
I think it is insanely telling that we did not have ONE reliever on either of these graphics….honestly, we have to do something about that.
by timmycardinals on Nov 12, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the arms that the Dodgers have
Makes me think that they might consider Saito to be expendable. If that’s the case then the Cardinals should be all over that deal. We could probably get him on a 1 year deal for about the same as what it would cost to get Hoffman.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Nov 12, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's watch Mo
I think Mo will make a deal or two this off season. He does have some cash and trade bait, we just can’t be sure when. And quite frankly I think some have been too critical of him for not making a deal. Remember guys, no deal is better than a bad deal. And I do believe Hoffman is on the radar. The Cardinals are exploring this option as we speak.
by bigmotors on Nov 12, 2008 2:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
MLB Traderumors
specifically indicated Hoffman wasn’t on the radar. I hope you’re right, though.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 12, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually it now says the cards are potential suitors
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 12, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Almost makes too much sense
You’d think we’d make a strong push for him.
by Merry CRasmus on Nov 12, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
meh
Unless we get Khalil with him, I’m not interested. And even with KG, I’m not that interested.
Heath Bell, on the other hand . . .
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Nov 12, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hoffman's a FA
Don’t know how signing him would play into trading for Greene . . .
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Nov 12, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right. I'm an idiot.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Nov 12, 2008 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
didn't when he got #500 against us have a lot of good things to say about the Cards?
not that it means anything, but he certainly fits the bill, especially with TLR still around. doesn’t he? i’m sure MO’s going to at least give the old tires a kick or two.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Nov 12, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't feel like reading through this many posts
but mlbtraderumors says the Marlins will almost certainly trade Kevin Gregg, I beg for Dan Uggla everytime I talk about the Marlins, I know they have talked outfielders, and want a catcher. Could we do something like Skip, Anderson, +pitching prospect? Or would it take much, much more? I would do Luddy if it could bring Uggla.
?
by showmejoe on Nov 12, 2008 9:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
it depends,
who do you mean? If skip, anderson +pitcher for Gregg, too much, but for skip, anderson and pitcher for Gregg and Uggla, maybe not enough.
by dunc4life on Nov 12, 2008 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gregg is a salary dump
I think he could be had for a prospect or two. Look at the deal the marlins just made:
Scott Olsen and Josh Willingham to the Nationals for (2B) Emilio Bonifacio – .240 with no homers and 16 RBIs in 60 big league games, and two minor leagers (2B) Jake Smolinksi, and (P) P.J. Dean.
Uggla certainly changes the equation and I’ll defer to the more intelligent guys here to determine his value, but I doubt Gregg by himself would not cost a MLB regular like Skip.
"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"
by Knighttime on Nov 12, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, Furcal is looking like the guy to me at SS
He fits top of the order needs, can defend AND he’s neither a type A or type B FA. I think that makes him worth overpaying for financially. We dont have to give up picks and he fills a need in the field and a need in the lineup. Also, he has secondary skills – speed, strong arm.
As a random consideration, Jerry Hairston could be interesting for a good price. I know I and most everyone else has had enough of utility MIF’s playing everyday and he’s injury prone. But if we slotted him as the everyday 2B instead of a utility role he might have value. Decent OBP, solid Fielding % and ok range – after a quick peak at the metrics. It would give some flexibility which TLR ‘needs’ in case of an injury or an unexpected surge by a prospect – Tyler Greene im looking at you.
by rlgosnell on Nov 12, 2008 11:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah,
i would kill to have furcal in the lineup. he just seems like the missing piece. let’s see: power? check. speed? check. defense? check. OBP? check. the guy is just oozing with talent, but sadly, i think he will be out of our pricerange, unless DeWitt is willing to spend 45 mil. or so for 3 years.
by dunc4life on Nov 12, 2008 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that he will be worth that much
He is injury prone. He isn’t great defensively at short, he makes a lot of errors, but he does have a great arm. He is also just a leadoff hitter and I am not sure that teams are gonna spend 15 mil a year for a leadoff guy unless he is really good. I’m guessing that we could probably get him for about 30 mil for 3 years. Also I can’t think of another team that needs a good shortstop as much as us.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we're going to overpay somewhere, ss is the place to do it.
if we sit around and wait for everyone to be reasonably priced, we’re going to wait a long time.
by tom s. on Nov 13, 2008 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
We really can’t upgrade both positions in the MI. Why not get the premier available shortstop and use our spare parts to staff second? That way we can keep Ludwick and Ankiel and have that dreamy outfield we’ve been waiting for. Either Skip, Barton or Mather gets traded for a LOOGy or as a piece in a deal for a closer. Keep the club intact, move McClellan to the rotation, pick up a FA LR, the whole thing’s done.
If we trade Ludwick for Escobar, we solve a long-term problem but open up a big hole in the lineup.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 13, 2008 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Kennedy would be fine at second if we got Furcal
Kennedy is great defensively and wouldn’t look so bad batting in the 9th hole.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's making $13M/year now, though.
on a contract signed in 2005. I agree, it sounds insane, but every other team seems to be mentioned when Furcal’s name comes up on mlbtraderumors. I think the bidding is going to be pretty crazy.
I really think buying low on khalil greene (after the big peavy/escobar trade) is the way to go.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Nov 13, 2008 1:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we have 25 mil to spend this offseason
Really the only needs that we can fill on free agency would be Loogy’s. Say that they cost a combined 7-8 mil, affeldt, ohman, rhodes, shouse, beimel would all be around 3-4 each year. then we would still have 17 mil to spend on other guys. Most of that should be spent on trying to get furcal. our bullpen would be fine this year with Chris closing. then after that we could make a minor trade with some of our outifielders like mather, barton and duncan to fill any other holes that TLR can think of.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 13, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

by 