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Rookies of the Year

Resolved: I will not mention Ryan Ludwick once in this post, except for that time. Or if, in the course of the day, he's—but I mustn't. 

Anyway, the baseball news today, for there is baseball news, is the the Rookie of the Year announcements. Lead times being what they are I can only say that Dewey beats Truman and that my personal picks are Geovany Soto and Evan Longoria, like everybody else's. But because we must take baseball news where we can get it, now, I thought I'd go a bit further and take a look at the Cardinals' 2008 rookies. In rough order of playing time:

Kyle McClellan - RP - 24

G IP K BB HR ERA VORP
68 75.2 59 26 7 4.04 10.5

As Dave Barry used to say, are you like me? Are you really surprised that these are Kyle McClellan's numbers? Most of the year it seemed like the on-screen graphics had his name as Kyle-McClellan-ERA-2.75, and Dan'n'Al lauded him continuously as the Cardinals' most reliable bullpen piece, but I double checked and I didn't get these off of Ryan Franklin's B-R page. 

But of course something was wrong with McClellan in the second half. After his virtuoso June, in which he struck out sixteen and walked one, he was a mess. He walked more batters in his last 23 innings than he had in his first 52, and the problem was compounded by a minor BABIP spike—when he did get it in the strike zone, they were hitting it harder than they had before. McClellan's chief skill as a reliever is excellent command, and when he didn't have it he simply was not a good pitcher.

His second half does a few things. For one, it reminds us that he had only gotten as far as a half-season at AA before being anointed as the Seventh Inning Man in a Major League bullpen. When McClellan was pitching well he brought the control that allowed him to walk ten in 60 minor league innings to a Big League setting and proved that his stuff was good enough for him to be that fine with it. But he's only been in the bullpen two years; it might have been a little too much to have expected him to arrive fully formed and not give anything back.

The other thing it does is throw his role back up in the air. McClellan is now number two on my Mark Mulder I'm-not-expecting-anything-so-if... power rankings for this year, behind only Carpenter. Right now when I think about the 2009 team he doesn't factor in at all, even though I know he's there. The reason is that there's just too much uncertainty, not only about what he'll do but where he'll do it. 

When he was the Cardinals' bullpen rock circa June it seemed insane to think the early intimations of moving him into the rotation after a year on the Wainwright scholarship would bear any fruit. He was never the prospect Wainwright was in the rotation, and he only even made it onto the prospect map as a reliever, and even Wainwright seemed fated to end up in the bullpen for a while. 

But his late struggles alter the narrative a little. Now that he doesn't have a sterling set-up man season under his belt—now that it looks like a true apprenticeship season, and will on baseball cards from now until the end of time—the Cardinals' options seem a little more open. It's amazing what a bad second half will do to make your versatility seem more important.

Brian Barton - OF - 26

G AB H 2B 3B HR BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS+ VORP
82 153 41 9 2 2 19 39 .268 .354 .392 97 3.7

Say what you will about La Russa, but there is one thing he knows better than any living manager and that is how to parcel out just enough PT to all of his players. (Whether they deserve it or not, at times, which might be a problem.) I'm stunned to learn that Barton, who seemed so forgotten that by June that he was appearing in black and white on the back of the Busch Stadium souvenir cups, played in more than half of the team's games and got 150 at-bats. But all of La Russa's weird tricks—all those times early in the year where he'd start Barton and then pull him after six innings for a "defensive replacement", for instance—got BB what amounts to a full season as a fourth-and-a-half outfielder. 

And Barton did alright with it. At 26 he couldn't afford to turn into a project, and he didn't. He basically did enough of all the things he'd done as a prospect to be a fine reserve outfielder at the Major League level. He walked a lot, even though he wasn't hitting for any power, he ran well in the outfield even though his arm sometimes seemed like it was throwing for an imaginary cut-off cut-off man, and he ran like a man afire for some of those extra-base hits.

Whether he's a finished product or not he seems like he's ready, at 27 next year, to step into a fourth outfielder role on a regular basis. If anyone makes Skip Schumaker the most tradable of the Cardinals outfielders from our end, it's this guy.  

Joe Mather - OF - 25

G AB H 2B 3B HR BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS+ VORP
54 133 32 7 0 8 12 32 .241 .306 .474 102 3.5

Mighty Joe is an exciting player to watch. His vitals make him out to be about the same size as Chris Duncan, but when he finally got called up it seemed like a misleading comparison—he's shaped like a baseball player, or an American Gladiator, not a lumberjack. He looks like an athlete, running with no inefficient movement and leaping like a basketball player. His swing, between the size, the shin guard, and the long uppercut, gives one the visual impression of seeing Mark McGwire again, which is fun. 

Of course, none of those things make you a good baseball player. But last year he certainly played himself into the Great Cardinals Outfield Glut of 2009. I have no idea what the Cardinals are going to do with this guy, or what they should do with this guy, but I think he would impress if given the chance. It's not often you end up with a combination hulking slugger/great fielder, and given that base of skills it's not a stretch to see the kind of improvement in his hitting numbers that you would need to make him an above-average corner outfielder.

Chris Perez - RP - 22

G IP K BB HR ERA VORP
41 41.2 42 22 5 3.46 8.1

Chris Perez came up in a way that didn't surprise anyone who'd followed him all the way up the ladder. He showed immediately that he could strike out Major League batters like it was no big deal; he looked like a future closer; he walked a ton of batters. For a controversial player it was not a controversial beginning. 

But I think he'd become a symbol more than a baseball player by the end of the year. La Russa and Duncan expressed their concern with his readiness as a closer and we jumped to his defense, tired of Ryan Franklin, tired of retreads, tires of the mantra of the proven closer. but when you look at the stats—as we so often ask La Russa and Duncan to do—they might have had a point. 

He walked nearly five batters per nine innings. And it wasn't a surprise, because he's always walked nearly five batters per nine innings. He had some excellent early outings, he looked outstanding in them, and we—I, at least—used our inner Scout's Instinct to declare him ready, even though he was the same wild young pitcher he was before the callup. 

I'm already on the record as pro-Perez for closer in 2009, if for no other reason than to keep payroll down in areas where easy replacements can not be dredged up out of other teams' minor league swamps, but when I look back at how I decided that the Braintrust was out of their mind in not handing Perez the position immediately I see that I was doing the same thing—relying on a hunch and my eyes—that kills me when it leads to, say, Marlon Anderson starting at DH in the World Series.

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Comments

Display:

When you say he walked

nearly 5 batters an inning, is that just careless typing or is there some new “shorthand” I don’t know about in which we multiply the actual rate stats by 10 in order to save time? Because I like to keep up with the jargon you stat kids are always inventing. =D

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 10, 2008 12:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

if you have to ask,

you’ll never know.

Thanks for catching that.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 10, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't get it either

Twenty-two walks over 41 innings is 0.5 batters per inning. If his hits allowed per inning weren’t that bad, he would be a pretty damn good closer. Young Pitcher’s problem is he has to miss bats all the time, and he didn’t.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 10, 2008 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his FIP

was 4.40, not taking hits into account at all. I just think it’s going to be hard for him to strike out enough batters to make five walks per nine innings not an issue. His numbers last year were closer to Izzy’s last year than you would think.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 10, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Stay with the youngsters...

Maybe this is just me “relying on a hunch and my eyes”, but I think the Cards should stick with the young guns in the bullpen, concentrating on bringing in a lefthander or two (Affeldt, Ohman, Rhodes, etc). A pen stocked with McClellan, Perez, and Motte with Worrell, Salas, Gregorson, and Perdomo developing in the high minors is not a bad situation. Grouped together with the best of the group including Franklin, T Johnson, J Kinney, Springer (if resigned), and Manning and I think MI and starter prospects need to be much more of a focus of the Cards offseason. The more we blog about the closer issues, the more I like the idea of letting Perez roll with it (and if he really falls apart, giving Motte or possibly Salas a try). Keep the costs low in the bullpen by developing who we have, trade our OF and 3B depth for MI and starter prospects, and we’ll have the money to go after the Jake Peavy’s of the world.
Oh, and my early vote for ROY for the next two years: ’09 Rasmus ’10 Wallace

by BustaCard on Nov 10, 2008 12:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

oh, I agree with going all-youngsters

I just think that we might have been a little too convinced of Perez’s immediate lockdown-closer success. I think he’ll be a very good reliever next year, with a chance at being an excellent one.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 10, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What do you think of Motte?

I know you can’t judge from his MLB sample in ‘08, and I’ve read he doesn’t offer much other than his fastball, but 100 mph is 100 mph. 76.2 IP, 126 SO and 29 BB (combined AAA and MLB) would seem to put him in the ‘elite’ category of bullpen prospects, especially after his stellar ‘07 season. With two closer prospects like Motte and Perez- not to mention Fernando Salas’ season at Springfield- why is the closer roll even an issue (Or maybe to get to the point, why the reluctance from TLR and Duncan to let the young guys close?) Is their precendence? I know TLR and Duncan have usually had a vet closer (Eckersley and Izzy for most of the last 20 years) but they’ve hit paydirt more than a few times with young talent- three straight ROYs with the A’s back in the day comes to mind. I understand the idea of paying for pitching and developing your talent in the field, but I completely disagree with it as a dogma. We have a crapton of young, flamethrowing arms in the bullpen. Let’s use it for some other reason than trade chips (especially given the trade depth we have in the OF and 3B)

by BustaCard on Nov 10, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Younguns

I’m in complete agreement… I’d rather stuff our closer roll with the possibilities of Motte and Perez and pick up a proven Holiday or a Peavey, than to get a bunch of okay players that are going to slide by. Plus having players like Holiday and Peavey make our other players better… Holiday is going to help protect Pujols, and hopefully AP would put silly numbers up as well as give Glaus tons of RBI opportunities. A guy like Peavey is going to give our bullpen some unfamiliar cushion and more rest opportunity… as opposed to the redundant outcomes from Joel Pineiro… I wonder if there’s any way of projecting increased productivity of increased talent in the lineup.

by pattimagee on Nov 10, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It appears Holiday is a moot point, besides...

…we have plenty of potential pop on the offensive side. Luddy, Glaus, Mather, Ankiel, Rasmus and in a year or so, the Walrus. I think offense is fine without adding some more monstrous bats (at least not for $10 million+). Now, if we could save the $ somehow and get a starter like Peavy, I’m not against it. I’ve seen all the arguments against, including the amount of cash we’d have allocated to our starters for the next few years, but SP is worth the investment like no other position.

by BustaCard on Nov 10, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

but i think we should at least try to get an established closer for one year through a trade, or MAYBE resigning izzy if he looks good.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

izzy looked great

at this point last year.

i won’t be surprised if izzy is still looking for work in march. until he’s able to take the mound and show some teams what he can do, teams will probably be hesitant to offer him a contract.

if he does a formal try out and looks good next year, i wouldn’t be opposed to a one year percival kind of deal.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 10:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

McClellan

My personal theory is that they went to the well a little too often with him. He broke down at the end of the year. Unfortunately, that makes him a question mark for this season, as Dan noted. It’s not like you get to just hit the reset button each season when it comes to pitchers. I suspect they’ll need to use him judiciously to get results from him.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 12:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yes

I’ve read somewhere that there is a hangover effect for relievers used too much in one year- I don’t have time to look for it this morning, but I’m pretty sure it was a THT article. Can’t remember the qualifications, whether it was just “over xx innings”, or if it was more of a verducci thing IE “previous year + xx innings”, or if it was based on appearances, but by all three of those standards KMC is a candidate for a rough year in ’09.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't know if it's the article you're referring to

But MGL did a big long analysis that came to the conclusion that the reliever hangover effect is little more than regression to the mean. Relievers who had an awesome season (for one reason or another) in one year are going to be used more than in years in which they don’t have their best year. So a guy playing above his head will get lots of PT, when he returns to his true-talent level he gets fewer innings naturally making that type of effect essentially impossible to measure.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

If he hadn’t shown signs of severe fatigue in the end ‘08 we’d probably be giving more consideration to K-Mac becoming a starter down the road…but I agree that because it seems like we overused him this season, LaDuncan will need to be using him a bit more sparingly, at least to start the season, then see how he responds.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm more sanguine on McClellan I guess

than you. I think he wore down considerably as the season went along, which isn’t really a surprise given the limited minor league innings, but I think he’s a legitimate middle reliever who could end up being a solid setup man. I also think he could close if we had to ask him to though, like you, I’m on the record as favoring Perez in that role this season.

On McClellan, his periphs are all pretty solid and, in my mind, there’s no reason to think he won’t do a good job for us again in 2009. Counting on him AND Perez AND Motte AND Kinney may be too much to ask, but McClellan’s liable to be the best of the bunch, at least in ’09.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 12:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the group you mentioned above

are all willing to compete within the strike zone. they may struggle with their command, but their gameplan isn’t nibbling.
the 08 pen had too much “nibble and beg”, with gestures. i like relievers who challenge the hitters with strikes and try to take the umping out of it.

by ball in play on Nov 10, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at our RH'd bullpen guys...

I don’t see how we bring back Springer. We have five guys right now and that doesn’t include Thompson (who may be non-tendered). Do we sign Russ figuring that there may be a lot of time where one of the four isn’t healthy or available, or do we let him retire?

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Offer him arbitration since he is a Type A FA

Than if he accepts great since he was very good for us last year. If not we get 2 draft picks or he retires.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Makes sense...

I think he’ll accept, and I hope signs for about $3 mil. He’s very good…just a lot more expensive that the other guys. You gotta figure one or more of he, Franklin, Perez, Motte, Kinney and KMac will miss some time…hopefully not all at once. If everybody’s healthy who gets bumped? Franklin is most likely the worst of the bunch…do we reconsider him as a swingman?

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Mather's defense

was surprisingly good- he was 7 bases (3 outs) in just 189.1 innings in the corners this year, +0 in 19 innings in CF.

I really want to see Mather get 300-400+ PA’s in 2009.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 1:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

Ludwick-Rasmus-Mather with Barton as our 4th…

by BustaCard on Nov 10, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel?

You’d rather see Mather than Ank? I like Joe, looks like he has good potential but Ank has electric potential. Or so it seems to me.

Ludwick-Rasmus-Ank with Mather and Schu on the bench would make me happy. Find somewhere for Barton and Duncan to go in or out of the organization.

by paposse on Nov 10, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think assumed in there

is that Ank and Schu help deliver middle infield help, relief help, maybe an additional starter. I could be wrong, but I bet that is where BustaCard and Sleepy are coming from.

I’d like to see some space cleared out in the outfield if it addresses needs elsewhere. I don’t particularly like Ludwick being the one moved out though, and definitely not for another outfielder.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ankiel doesn't have much value

because he is a free agent after 09 and he is injury proned. He is most valuable to us and we should give him a shot next year to prove that. I say trade ludwick for some real good guys like a stud second baseman or a top notch starter.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily

Maybe Ankiel gets you a MI with FA looming around the corner. I think he still has some value, though clearly not as much as Ludwick. But that’s kinda the point, there aren’t many, maybe any, guys that can deliver that kind of performance and come with 3 years of cheap salary left.

If someone will really pay up for Ludwick, and give the right value you may have to look at it. I’d just assume make a smaller deal involving Schumaker or Ankiel and hold on to Ludwick, if possible.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think that if healthy though

ankiel can produce almost as well as ludwick. Remember in his first full season as a hitter in 07 he had 43 combined homers b/t AAA and the majors. Therefore I think we should trade ludwick because he would obviously get us more value because of those contractual reasons.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 8:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You advocate trading the guy

who put up the bigger numbers in the Majors because the other guy did well in two different levels, one of them being the minors??? I don’t doubt that Rick has the potential if healthy…but look at this guy’s career and it’s riddled with injury. Why can’t we just keep both of them now, and then if both stay healthy and produce we have TWO players surrounding Albert with 35+ HR potential! Couple that with a steady Glaus and decent rookie year from Rasmus and our offense is fine. If you think AK can produce, which you apparently believe he can, than let him have 2B, then re-sign Iz2 as our defensive-minded SS

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't mind doing that

But I believe that will limit playing time to our young promising outfielders like colby, mather and even duncan who could rebound. I don’t think that Ludwick will have this good of a season in the future, so I think It would be good to sell high on him and get and impact player in a wanting position such as the bullpen and MIF. An I don’t think that Kennedy can produce full time, I just don’t think he is as bad as he shows.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 12:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

I still think Ludwick will be a solid player come ‘09. His season in ’07 was solid and he was healthy. ’08 got even better because he was healthy and became an everyday player. I think he’s legit and even if he doesn’t put up the sixth highest OPS in all of baseball again next year, I’d still like to have him around.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 11, 2008 8:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his solid season in 07

was an .818 ops in a pretty good sample size of over 300 at bats. i don’t that he will regress that far but i think that .875 ops would be a fair estimate. still a great bargain and pretty good to hit somewhere in the middle of our lineup, but certainly no better than what mather or colby has the ability to do with good playing time next year. I think that ankiel will produce more next year with a similar injury risk as ludwick.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and he had a .490 OPS over his first 50 PA's

after that he had an .872 OPS over the next 298. It’s flat out amazing that a .872 OPS out of him next year would be a disappointment after this last year…

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 10:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hasn't Ludwick's career

been more riddled with injury?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 11, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure who has had it worse

but I remember watching In My Own Words during a rain delay earlier this season and the spotlight was on Rick. Through his return while in the minors he had something like 3 or 4 different surgeries…I’m too lazy to find it all right now.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 11, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

Well, as far as Skip goes, that is exactly right. An OF with Ankiel, Ludwick and Rasmus will probably have a lot of opportunities for the 4th OF to bat, as well. At the very least, one PH appearance a day, plus start every 3 or 4 days covering for one of the 3 to keep them all fresh.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not speaking for Busta...

but the way I see it is Ank will probably make $5mil in 2009 (still a bargain) while Joey Bombs is due the minimum. If we can get a solid return for Ankiel I’m all for moving him..big IF there. I would be comfortable with an OF of Ludwick, Rasmus, Mather, Barton and Schu…though Baron and Skippy are a bit redundant off the bench – but then you have big power in the OF so maybe speed and opposite handedness are the answer.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ank and Schu as trade chips...

makes a lot of sense. I think we could package those two with one of Freese or Craig and some lower minors RPs for a good return (to the O’s for Roberts and young pitching, to the A’s for Patterson and a bunch of young pitching, etc).
However, whether Ank and Schu are moved or not I’m for the three primary outfielders for 2009 being Ludwick, Rasmus and Mather. Regardless of how much Ankiel stands to make in the next few years I think Mather (and I hope Rasmus although I’m less sure for lack of seeing him on the field) is the better player. I perceive Mather as the better athlete- is their a better athlete in the organization?- the better defender, the better power hitter, has the better plate discipline, has more speed and- this is the clincher for me- is better in the clutch. This does not mean I hate Rick Ankiel, on the contrary, I would love to have him in my outfield IF we didn’t have Ludwick, Mather, and Rasmus in the organization.

by BustaCard on Nov 10, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Mather

but what makes you think he’s the better power hitter or defender? Ankiel played center all year (to slightly-to-somewhat below average range, admittedly, according to the PBP stuff) and has a stunner of a throwing arm. He also hit 43 home runs between AAA and the majors in 2007.

Mather’s a great athlete and I want to keep him around, but aside from his size I see no reason to believe he’s got more pop in his bat.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 10, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

More pop than Ankiel or more pop than what he showed in the Show?

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perceptions mostly,

…but aside from that one game that Ank gunned down two runners (that was awesome) he only had two more assists the rest of the season to go along with 8 errors. It’s hard to equate a corner OFer with a CFer but I was impressed by Mather’s range and speed when I saw him last year. I guess part of this equation is wanting to see Rasmus as our everyday CFer next year, then the question becomes who you want in RF. Again, this is just my opinion, I’ll take Mather.

by BustaCard on Nov 10, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel is a great athlete

if we don’t trade some outfielders away however, a situation may arise like last season where Rasmus doesn’t make the team… which will make things pretty messed up

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 10, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I pray that is not the case....

I’ve been getting excited about ’09 ever since Mo made the comments about Rasmus being in the bigs if healthy and producing in ST

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they'll probably just start him

and be done with the fiasco, plus I don’t see them keeping all those outfielders. if they do, then they are not doing their job.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 10, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

will it?

I don’t think it would kill Colby to spend part of another year in AAA. i know, we’re impatient, but he’s STILL very young. He definitely has to se the big leagues next year, but it won’t be some grave injustice if he doesn’t make it up until june or july.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tony????

i keed, i keed

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it surprised me

until I saw him. He really does look like he belongs out there, especially for a guy who began his career in the infield.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 10, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

McClellan, Barton, Mather, and Perez

are 4 very exciting players. I’d like to see all of them stay Cardinals (except perhaps for Mather, we may be able to make a good trade involving him). I think that Perez will probably end up being the best of these 4… but it’s very hard to compare them. I guess I think we should keep Barton is because of his speed, making him not only a very good backup outfielder, but a valuable pinch runner and pinch hitter.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 10, 2008 1:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Marlon Anderson starting the WS at DH?

when did i black out that madness?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 1:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

game 2, 2004

the same playoffs in which Ray Lankford was not deemed useful enough to make the roster. Ugh.

by DanUpBaby on Nov 10, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of Rookie of the Year

In the National League, I know it isn’t the popular pick but I take Joey Votto over Geo Soto.

Soto
.285/.364/.504
HR/RBI – 23/86
OPS+ – 120
RC/G – 6.6
WS – 24 (Batting 14.6)

Votto
.297/.368/.506
HR/RBI – 24/84
OPS+ – 124
RC/G – 6.9
WS – 20 (Batting 18.6)

Essentially, Soto has two things go for him. 1) Defense, 2) Being a Chicago Cub.
Votto played 1B, Soto played C. Votto wasn’t Ryan Braun out there defensively, nor was Geo Soto playing the part of Pudge Rodriguez, either. What his ‘defense’ is mostly heralded for is his ‘managing’ of the pitching staff of the Chicago Cubs.

I still take Votto. The idea of ‘managing’ the pitching staff is overrated, especially when given the rotation he was given to manage. Am I supposed to believe that Zambrano, Lilly, Harden and Dempster would have all added an extra run to their ERA if Soto wasn’t behind the plate? A quick look at the splits between when he caught and when Henry Blanco caught showed no real difference in pitching results.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 10, 2008 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good point on "managing"

The two are almost identical offensively…but I’d still give the nod to Soto. I agree that his impact on “managing” a pitching staff like that is miniscule, however catcher is also the most physically demanding position to play on the field. So since Soto had to play a tougher position and still put up the comparable numbers to Votto I’d give the slight edge to him.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I’d have to give it to Soto, just because good hitting catchers are pretty rare. although I was not aware that Votto was so comparable in hitting…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 10, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It appears to be a tie offensively...

really their numbers are VERY close. Both play in bandbox stadiums so you can’t give either the edge there. To me it comes down to the fact that Soto was a catcher (most difficult position defensively) on a division winner and Votto was a First Baseman (easiest positoin defensively) on a sub-.500 team.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

Soto has a third, very important thing going for him — premium position. The two are basically comparable but Soto plays the premium position —as far to the left on the defensive spectrum as you can get, and Votto’s on the other end. If a C and a 1B had the same #s, the C had the better season unless the catcher was Mackey Sasser and the 1B was Pujols defensively.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I concur

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 10, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This and last offseason...

is it just me or do this offseason (potentially) and last offseason beat the pants off recent postseasons? The hot stove stuff is unbelievably exciting with trade talk and even big name free agents. The Cards didn’t really get involved last year (when several big named players swapped zip codes), but could be big players this year. Even midseason trades saw some big players move…Bay, Manny and CC.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops...

this was suppose to be a reply to the Holliday trade.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope this off season is not like the one after 06

Were we are in a bunch of talks for trades and signings but than nothing happens. I feel the management and ownership really has to make a show this off season. Where is all this extra money from the Radio and new Ballpark?

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I'm selling the Cards a bit short...

after all we did move Rolen and Edmonds last year, and Bring Glaus in. Each of those guys has more than a couple of All Star appearances under their belt.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well..

Their offensive numbers are pretty much the same, except that Soto is a catcher. Therefore, given the difficulty of catching as many games as he did, his production was more valuable. It’s a close call, but the right guy is Soto.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 10, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

soto was on a great and well balanced offensive team where he has almost no pressure on him. the reds traded away dunn and griffey and votto was able to produce and carry the team to not being in last place.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great...

because 5th place is sooo much better than 6th place…and who cares if the Pirates or the Reds finish last? Both have been non-factors in the Central for years.

Soto wasn’t expected to be one of the top offensive producers of that team and his production made up for the lack of production they got out of the $55 million man. Soto is at a position that puts immense physical stress on a player over the course of a 162 game season. The fact that he produced the way he did and played such a tough position gave him the edge over Votto.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agree...

How is it really up for debate? Look Votto is a good player, but I can find a lot of guys to do what Votto did and play 1B. Heck Soto could move to 1B, can Votto move to C?

That’s the point here. Soto plays a way more difficult position.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 10, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Soto is also only in the offensive 'counting' position

he is in because of the team around him. He hit .269 with men on base, Votto hit .291. If you put Votto on the Cubs, he’d have had 110 RBIs (which we all know is uber-important) and this wouldn’t have been a debate.

Hell, I’ll simplify it further. If Soto was the catcher for the Reds and Votto was the 1B for the Cubs, Votto would have won this award and no one would know who Geo Soto is.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 10, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Votto put up some great numbers...

 but at far and away the easiest position to field defensively and subsequently a position where offensive numbers come in droves.

Votto, ML 1b ranks:
BA – .291 – 7th
OB% – .368 – 10th
SLG% – .506 – 11th
OPS – .874 – 9th
HR – 24 – 14th
RBI – 84 – 18th
Runs Created – 96.3 – 13th

Soto put up comparable numbers while playing the hardest and most physically demanding position on the field, and a position where any offensive numbers above the major league average is a big-time plus.

Soto, ML C ranks:
BA – .285 – 4th
OB% – .364 – 4th
SLG% – .504 – 2nd
OPS – .868 – 2nd
HR – 23 – 1st(tied)
RBI – 86 – 3rd
Runs Created – 88.7 – 3rd

by lunchboxbomb on Nov 10, 2008 9:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

While I am not sold that Chris Perez is the answer

I agree with the opinion that the Cards need not look outside of the organization for 2009’s closer. There is a ML quality closer somewhere on the existing roster. The Card’s goal for Spring Training should be to locate that person and use them accordingly. Given the up and down nature of most marginal closers, it is a waste of valuable resources to spend money to fill a slot that can be already filled.

by JMedwick on Nov 10, 2008 2:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Holliday to the A's

According to mlbtraderumors

Interesting to see what they got for him

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 10, 2008 2:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good.

Not only is that fiasco averted but he is out of our league!

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 10, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 10, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Haren, Barton, and Calero

actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if Barton was involved.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

I wonder if the Rockies will not try to trade Street for more players…

by JMedwick on Nov 10, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm surprised any one would want street

dude’s arm is about to fall off

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can do without the Cards getting Street

But at the same time, I can see why some teams would want to acquire him.

by JMedwick on Nov 10, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that is probably a step down

from Skip, KMC, and Boggs, when you consider that Street is due for a payday (probably 5M+).

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really if the Rockies can now trade Street or Corpas

Keeping one closer around and flipping the other to a team like the Mets (or Cardinals) for more players.

by JMedwick on Nov 10, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NNNNOOOO

Those three names can NEVER EVER be mentioned together like that again. I slowly feel my blood thickening and my heart stopping…“To be, or not to be…”

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 10, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did the A's have to give up a player

like a Ryan Ludwick to get him?? The A’s really don’t have a hitter like that…so I would guess it’s for prospects.

I think the Rockies were trying to play Mo and see if he would bite and give up a guy like Ludwick.
I find it kind of funny that some of these other teams can trade some middle of the road prospects for a “star player” but the Cards always have to trade their best prospect or a close to equal star player in return in these “trade rumors”. I doubt Mo will get much in trades until he has been a GM for a few more years. It seems to me that other GMs are trying to take advantage of him and seeing if he will take the bait.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 10, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty safe to say

Street is going to be headlining in Ludwick’s spot. Not nearly the piece Ludwick is, however.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 10, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mo can hold his own

Colorado was likely leaking that stuff out to try to get a better offer elsewhere. I believe Mo said that the rumors weren’t completely accurate, in terms of players discussed. Having Ludwick mentioned in connection with Holliday isn’t the worst thing in the world for the Cards, and having it reported that we were the ones that said the deal is dead isn’t that bad either.

He may still find a good deal. If it involves Ludwick, though, it better be a heck of a good deal.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

that will be an interesting test of the whole “holliday is average out of Coors” theory. Park factors for McAfee are very similar to STL’s, with a bit less of a dramatic impact on HR’s and 2B’s.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Is it wrong of me to hope he puts up a...

sub .900 OPS while Ludwick goes out and puts up a .900+?

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

of course not

because it will prove we’re right (which we alrady knew, of course…)

by mattybobo on Nov 10, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but even if we're proved wrong we will still be right

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i wouldn't hope for it

but if it happens, you can enjoy the feeling of smug satisfaction.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll be HOPING for it

there’s nothing wrong with an .875-.895 OPS, I think we’d be thrilled to get that from Ludwick this year. I don’t like being wrong.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 10, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's funny,ever since they re did mcafee, i've always thought of it as a good hitters park

big mac, giambi, tajada, swisher, etc all really liked it. sure it’s no Natti or Philly, but i would think Matt would like it better than coors considering there’s no funny biz going on with the balls.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also,

Oakland has massive foul territory, turning lots of popups that would be foul in other places into outs.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Nov 10, 2008 6:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well it looks like

we will get to see an interesting case study in park factors. Holliday goes from the 3rd best park for hitters in all of MLB to the 5th worst. I know he was hurt a little this year, but just a straight park factor conversion would result in:

2008 home slashes .332/.413/.584/.997
2009 home slashes .303/.382/.489/.871

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 10, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His numbers should take a hit

at home BIG TIME. On the road, he gets to hit at Angels Stadium (What do they even call it now?), Arlington and Safeco. Arlington is a bandbox but Angels Stadium and Safeco aren’t that far removed from Dodger Stadium and Petco.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 10, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's starting to become obvious to me that

other GMs think that Mo is still wet behind the ears and only talk to him with the idea of trying to take advantage of him hoping he flinches and trades away a player like Ludwick or Rasmus.

We have some players in the minors (not named Rasmus) that we could swing a deal to get a “impact player” but as of now it seems like these GMs are only asking for the moon when it come to Mo & the Cards. Which is why I don’t think we are going to get much in trades this year.

So far Mo is doing a great job in not taking the bait on some of these crazy offers. But the thing is… I think Mo will need to establish himself for another year or two before other GMs take him more serious. He is being tested right now.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 10, 2008 3:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

If it is Gonzalez, my understanding is that he IS there Rasmus.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 10, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzalez is a very good prospect

but he’s not Rasmus. He was the centerpiece of the Haren deal last winter. For those who think the A’s gave up chopped liver here, they’re wrong. Plus, if the rumors about Street being spun somewhere else are correct, the Rockies will get probably a couple good pieces for him as well. It wouldn’t surprise me if we had been talking to the Rockies as much about Street as about Holliday.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we were just being used

Sounds like the deal that was leaked to the press wasn’t exactly what the real discussions were around. Notice how frequently the trades that leak out never happen, while someone swoops in under the radar and makes the deal. I think this is by design many times.

I think Mo can still make moves here. Especially involving the outfielders, should be some win-win opportunities to be found there.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Another reason to believe that GMs are trying to take advanatge of Mo

By putting these “rumored trades” in the media. From what I read on the Strauss article, Mo realizes this and he is none too happy about it.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 10, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe so

Colorado leaked that crazy Fuentes stuff too. It may not be that this is isolated to just Mo though. There are a lot of leaks involving a lot of other teams out there too. The Manny circus is the first that comes to mind, although there are many others. I think it’s getting pretty safe to assume, if exact players involved in a trade are being leaked out to the press then it is probably BS or at least far from a done deal.

Either way, Mo can wait this out. Rolen-Glaus shows he can be pretty shrewd too. I think he can find a trade partner out there. There are teams out there that can use some outfielders pretty badly and we can’t use them all.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we might have said so

if Edmonds had gone off his meds in SD instead of Wrigley…

He probably made the right move, regardless, but he was a little lucky.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 8:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think is was the opposite

Freese is a much better asset to the Cards than Edmonds to the Padres.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 9:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It might not have been all that serious

but if MO would have said “yes” to that package of Ludwick, Skip, and Boggs then Matt Holliday would not be getting fitted for white spikes right now.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

actually sounds like Mo did the using

Thanks to Colorado leaking the offer, along with the fact that Mo turned it down, the idea that Luddy plus a 4th OF and an unproven pitcher are worth MORE than Matt Frickin’ Holliday is now in play.

I bet if you polled the GM pool, their estimation of Ryan Ludwick and Skip Schumaker’s value rose at least a small amount based on this.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 8:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just ran the numbers

Schumuaker ranked as as the 53rd best OFer out of 229 in baseball last year.

He was also was the 17th best CFer out of 60

Schumaker > Fourth Outfielder

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 8:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh, i agree

and hopefully seeing Mo turn this trade down caused some of the other GM’s in the game to run their own numbers and think “Hmmmmm”…

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All Moz needs to do to

establish himself is make a couple of good trades and say no to the stupid ones. But the whole question is probably moot. I don’t think the other GMs think about whether Moz is “serious” or not. They’ve got their own fish to fry, it’s not like they’re spending their time answering Internet polls about who their favorite NL GMs are.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 10, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He hasn't done that

Rolen for Glaus was a win. Edmonds for Freese was a win. They didn’t deal for Fuentes, [insert other trade that didn’t happen]. I don’t think anyone is trying to use him because he’s green.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's supposed to be "He hasn't done that??"

I would do depraved illegal things to get an edit function.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh come on, i've been on the edit button band wagon for years

sometimes, even a preview button can’t save me

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

an edit button

would destroy this site. you know that.

imagine if i could go back and edit all the stupid shit i’ve posted here.

the PREVIEW button is there. use it. since game threads aren’t around anymore i’ve learned to use it. its not so bad to read your post before you make it public. i’ve been taken a slight bit more seriously around here since i’ve learned to use it.

me.

taken seriously.

try it out, man.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 11, 2008 3:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously?

Not even close.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 11, 2008 9:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BTF added edit for 15 minutes after you post

Seems to have survived.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 11, 2008 9:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's is green to the GM role

but he’s been in the organization for years and was assistant GM while Jocketty was in charge…I think some of us (including myself) tend to forget that Moz does have experience and has a good sense of what he is doing.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also he's new to all of the added publicity that comes with the job

I remember when STL came to play AA Springfield before the season started. Mo was on the field talking to people and signing autographs in the front rows. When he came down to where I was standing with a friend of mine I handed him a pen and my ticket…

…He just took them, then stared at me for a second and then asked “Do you want me to sign this?!” He seemed really surprised when I said “Yeah!” He signed it…but it was a little odd. He seemed really uncomfortable…

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously I wasn't there

but I’m taking that as you just handing him the ticket and pen without saying a word and he’s like “what the hell do you want me to do with this, moron, you could at the very least open your mouth and say ‘hi, could you please sign this?’”

Just my take on it.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well that could have been the case

I didn’t say anything to him at first…I wanted to say “Hey aren’t you the ass that traded Edmonds?!?” I restrained obviously. But the fact that he was signing other people’s tickets before he got to me and then acted as if he had no clue what I was intending made it seem strange…it was pretty obvious what I was intending and he just seemed really out of his element.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your wrong

He was punching people’s valet tickets. He had to work his way from the bottom up

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 11:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So that's what that was!!!

I just thought he had a unique way of making the “O” in

M-O-Z-E-L-I-A-K

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Nov 10, 2008 11:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mo's Auto

My brother and I have a cheap McGwire jersey that we have been toting around to games since 2001. We have about 25-30 autographs on it (plus an awful soda stain that I’m still mad about).
Anyway, we went to the 9/19 day game at Wrigley and my brother managed to get Mozeliak’s signature added. We had very nice box seats behind the Cardinals dugout (given to us by a vendor rep) and John was just standing around. IIRC, the FSN “sideline” reporter nearby interjected that it might have been Mo’s first autograph. Guess he was wrong.

BTW, that was a weird experience sitting there that Friday. A lot of those seats seem to be bought up by corporations or such, because it was the least energetic MLB crowd I’ve experienced. It probably didn’t help that we shelled Big Z early and often (I LOVED the Zambrano exit, where Piniella ordered him back to the mound), but I couldn’t help but sense that what that stadium needs is more involved fans and less entitled/uninterested ones. I couldn’t have been happier to be there – free tickets, a few rows behind the visitors dugout, taking the day off to see day baseball at Wrigley – but there was no life in that crowd from the first pitch, at least in my section of the park.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Nov 11, 2008 10:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh, i bet they are trying

he’s just doing a good job of not making mistakes, so far. probably. We’ll know better in 2 or 3 years.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Speculation

That Carlos Gonzalez and Street were discussed earlier. That would be a huge haul for the Rox, especially if they can move either Street or Corpas.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 10, 2008 3:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Holliday

exactly the type of player we would all expect Beane to be trying to trade away right now?

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 3:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Apparently this is a move

trying to persuade Furcal to sign with the As because they really are trying to be contenders.

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 10, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

So, Beane realizes his way can only get him so far?

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He is taking the Flordia Marlins Approach

Stock up for a few years than blow your load in one year and hope it works out

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his whole stock came within one off season + ’08 season.

They were considered quite bare when ’07 ended.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Florida Marlins 5 Year plan is a downgrade from Beane's Moneyball.

The 5 year plan has been around since the mid-century and it pretty much has only worked the two times the marlins did it. Personally I totally agree with Baseball Prospectus and dismissing it as catching lightening in a jar twice.

Even though beane invented moneyball, Epstein perfected it…Beane is probably trying to Moneyball 2.0 it.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Nov 10, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perfected it?

A mid/low market team would’ve been sunk for years by the Julio Lugo/JD Drew signings going into ’07.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree, Epstein perfected it.

Beane hasn’t won a damn thing…unless that’s what he was trying to perfect.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For years?

Hardly. Lugo was a stopgap signing (and I agree that the $$$ were too high), but Lowrie was ready much faster than they anticipated. There’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone pooh-poohed the JD Drew signing, but he was their second best player in the postseason last year, and their second best player all year this year behind Pedroia. He also hasn’t been hurt that much the last two years, which was his problem for most of his career.

Look at their payroll matrix — do you see any boat-anchor contracts on there? I don’t. Nobody is signed for longer than a 5 year deal except for Dice-K, who they paid $50M just to talk to, so they wanted him locked up long term.

Key Points of the Moneyball philosophy:

  1. Focus on the draft and developing talent. Boston does this just as well as Oakland (Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Lowrie, Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, Masterson) — every one of those guys is cost controlled for at least 3 more years and are already pieces of the current big league club.
  2. Be willing to trade away top players or top prospects for needed parts or to help change the direction of the ballclub. They traded Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett & Mike Lowell and won a World Series. Beckett, when healthy, is one of the best big game pitchers around and Boston has the rotation depth to deal with his injuries. They also were able to dump a 36 year old superstar malcontent with two middling prospects and got back Jason Bay, who could be a .900 OPS player at Fenway for the next 5-7 years. I’d say thats smart front office work.
  3. Don’t sign contracts longer than 4-5 years and don’t sign guys who aren’t going to fit in with the team. I think Francona has a lot to do with this one (he’s so underrated as a manager it’s criminal) because he’s able to get everyone playing as a team and rules with a passive style that doesn’t lend to players being pissed at him (Guillen) or players wondering what their role is.

Now, if Billy Beane had a $130M+ payroll he’d probably have more success, and might have a championship as well, but then he also may not be as savvy a guy when it comes to dumping talent at the right time either because he would have a resources to hold onto it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 11, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think the criticism of the drew signing

had more to do with the fact that the Sox officially became the new Evil Empire by doing it, than anything else.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 11, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Point being "perfected it" is far from the truth

He’s bombed on several signings that would eat through a small market team’s payroll. By my count they paid Manny’s departure 8 million fee, Schilling 8 million, Lugo 9 million and Crisp 6 million for a combined 5 runs above replacement…

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2008 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't blame them

The AL West is a weak division and the A’s could contend quickly if they get a few “impact players”. The Angels won’t be as good next season in my opinion. I think the time to strike for the A’s is now.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 10, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

when it comes to prospects and rebuilding they had a hell of a haul in ‘08. Angels will regress on the close games. A’s pitching isn’t that bad. I guess I’m saying I don’t blame Beane for thinking ’09 will be a year to compete

"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know.

This looks a situation where Beane rolls the dice for 2009, takes the two draft picks next year and moves on. If the team catches fire, the move is pure genius. If not…oh well. I just don’t see the A’s signing Holliday to Boras-inspired money next year.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 10, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

when i read Holliday was going to the A’s, my first thought was “huh, that was quick” and my second thought was “wait, does this mean that the A’s are going to win the world series??? Beane, you evil-genius bastard, you!”

by mattybobo on Nov 10, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

plus there's no way they are going to resign him

so when he leaves, they get the pics.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the angels won't be as good next year...

but they will still probably win 95 games. So much young talent and depth plus a big payroll budget to resign texiera. I don’t see Oakland improving that much over last year no matter who they sign.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We'll see about that

I believe the Angels ridiculous number in one-run games helped them to a pretty amazing +12 to their Pythagorean prediction this year. If they don’t sign Tex and/or KRod, they might be a lot closer to this years Pyth of 88 wins.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 10, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think they need K-Rod

But nothing should keep them from signing Tex. He’s their future franchise player. Vlad is a fading superstar — he’s one of those undisciplined type hitters that start to fade very quickly once their reflexes and talent start to go. I don’t see him adjusting his free-swinging style, and that’s going to cause his numbers to dip since he doesn’t have the reflexes of a 27 year old anymore.

If they’re smart, they let Anderson, K-Rod, and Garland walk, sign Tex, put Willits/Matthews/Figgins in LF, put Brandon Wood at 3B and live with it, and make Shields their closer. Their rotation would benefit from one more big arm to go with Lackey, Santana, and Saunders, although they still have Nick Adenhart waiting in the wings and he projects like a #2 or #3 type guy.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 11, 2008 10:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

but vlad still looks like a great player. He somehow always hits 300 with 25 to 30 homers. I agree that they should make tex there franchise player. and maybe make a push for sabathia or burnett.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 11, 2008 8:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I may generally stand alone

but I’m highly bullish on Mather for ‘09. Having watched him for the past couple of years if he stays healthy (nothing suggests he shouldn’t be) and gets enough playing time to show, I think he’ll probably be the most under hyped asset in our OF next year.

"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 3:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hear expectations

… I very much would like to see Mather get plenty of playing time in 09 to see whether that power potential blossoms. It’s a cry shame he got hurt in the 2nd half of 2008 for there was lots of OF playtime available once Ricky went down. Hell, Kennedy made 10 appearance in the Cards outfield this year.

by jjray on Nov 10, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Likewise on Mather. But I would like to see him develop more plate descipline and lay off the low breaking balls. Maybe it might come with experience.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Nov 10, 2008 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Mather

but if he gets a lot of ABs this year that either means somebody we would rather see starting (Lud, Ank, Raz) is either hurt or struggling. I don’t think anyone will trade for Ankiel until at least spring training due to his injury.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 10, 2008 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I was leaning the original comment in a heavy platoon role (unless we move one of them). Not as a core player as those three who are who I’d like to see on a regular basis.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not necessarily

“if he gets a lot of ABs this year that either means somebody we would rather see starting (Lud, Ank, Raz) is either hurt or struggling.”
TLR loves to platoon lefty-righty. With Raz’s thin experience level, wouldn’t surprise me to see TLR platoon him with a right-handed bat. I would think Mather is in line to be Raz’s platoon partner before Barton.

by jjray on Nov 10, 2008 9:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it should

I’d say experience should help his K rate going into next year. It’s never been that high in his career as it was in a Cards uniform and there’s rationale to say that it’ll just improve.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he'd be a very nice piece

of a platoon in LF — either w/ Skip or w/ a healthy and productive Duncan. I don’t believe he’s a great everyday player, but for 80-100 starts + pinch hitting + 5-10 at 1B, he could be very productive.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's plenty of AB

for me to be happy, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see above .800-.850 OPS should nonregular playing time not hurt his production.

his footwork in the field is much improved, and his value in our situation is quite high.

personally i’d rather have him than skip (weaker bat) or duncan (health) going forward, but i’m highly aware my case would be on a thin foundation until he has more ML at bats.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Mo now needs to get involved in the Peavy hunt again.

If only to try and take the Cubs out of the running. I know Mo tries to say he doesn’t care what other teams do…but he can’t let the Cubs get Peavy for marginal prospects if he can put together a package that can be as good (and doesn’t involve Rasmus).

It’s time for Mo to play a little “hardball” in my opinion. I hope this Rockies mess has started to set a fire in his belly.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Nov 10, 2008 3:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i agree

the purported package the baby bear are offering is on par with what we could offer even without including rasmus…heck we may be able to offer more without truly wiping out our system

the fact that the cubs are even favorites baffles me…the package that the braves seem to be offereing looks better than what the cubs have to offer imho

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 10, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't even read about a rumored Cubs' package

But their system sucks. Terribly. Ronny Cedeno? Sean Marshall? Donald Veal? Jeff Samardzija???? If we can’t beat the Cubs best offer with our 2nd/3rd tier guys I don’t know what to say.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The tight end is apparently un-touchable

Plus, he’s got a no-trade clause (of course he does….he’s a cub).

The deal “reported” is apparently Sean Marshall and possibly Kevin Hart and Mike Fontenot.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's so awesome

He has 95 and that’s it. Not very good command, a backup “slider”, a split/(change?) he can’t control, 25/15 K/BB, and threw 40% balls. Untouchable only with Cubs. He’s a mortgage-backed securities’ Chris Perez.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's pretty darn good

But control is definitely his Achilles’ Heel. Oh, and he absolutely pooped his pants in the playoffs this year.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just going to be blunt

No he’s not. His secondary stuff sucks, he doesn’t throw strikes, he was bad in the minors, unless he plans on a 0 home run rate he won’t be good in the majors barring lots of development. He’s a power arm with damn good fastball, there are lots and lots of those out there. We have (at least) two of those who are better than him on our team.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he can harness his fastball

he’ll be a real good setup man. His fastball has wicked movement and comes in mid to high 90s. The reason Motte needs something else is because his fastball is straight as a string and Perez’s fastball isn’t as fast, plus Perez plans on being a closer and could benefit greatly by a wipe out slider since his 93-94 mph fastball can be hittable.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

A guy who has to take a major developmental step is not good. He’s not untouchable, most organizations have one if not several relief prospects at least as good. The only difference is he got a 10 million deal out of the draft (which I could write a paper on how it could’ve been the dumbest contract given out in baseball history….obviously not in magnitude with say Zito but in black and white stupid opportunity cost)

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What he's getting paid is irrelevant

Chris Perez has control issues as well, in case you over-looked that aspect. And he’s untouchable (maybe “untouchable” is the wrong word to use there) because he has a no-trade clause. Once again, I don’t agree with what he’s being paid or the no-trade clause (that’s how they persuaded him to give up football), but that has no impact on his ability.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Joker's point

…is that paying $10 million (was it over 5 or 4 years? I don’t remember) for a guy who, as of right now, doesn’t appear to be much more than a set-up guy is a foolish move. I agree with you that Samardzija has the potential to be pretty tough (if he can refine that splitter), but even paying that much just to pry the guy away from the NFL is foolish to me.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 10, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It was more than just the NFL thing.

It’s because Chicago is Notre Dame country and they drafted him as another tourist attraction just like everything else the cubs stand for. They were determined to have the great ND tight end pitch for them soon and that’s how they got it done.

And, again, who cares how much he’s getting paid. Yes, I agree the whole contract is ridiculous, but it doesn’t make him a bad pitcher. And it doesn’t make Jason Motte and Chris Perez better than him.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, it doesn't make him a bad pitcher...

…it DOES make it a poor investment. The Cubs are going to get a bajillion people to come to their games every year regardless of who their players are, so they don’t need to spend 2 million a season on an unproven set-up guy. Motte and Perez are more or less the same player as Samardzija, but they’re cheaper, therefore a better investment. That changes of course if he turns into a starter, but that is unlikely from where I sit. Notice that I AGREED with you that he has the ability to be a top-level relief pitcher…but that doesn’t excuse his contract, a matter that really is beyond his control.

BTW…Samardzija played wide receiver, not tight end.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 10, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I noticed that as well

but didn’t say anything because I thought maybe there was some strange inside thing about him being a tight end that I didn’t know about.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 10, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And I'm saying he's not even a good pitcher

He has 95 with movement. That is his only attribute that is desirable as a pitcher. His slider sucks, his splitter he has no command over, and he doesn’t have fastball command. Granted 95 with movement is a good start but Jason Motte is a better pitcher because he actually has command to go with 98. Chris Perez is a better pitcher because he actually has a slider. Anyone want to call them “untouchable”? Perez I’d say even has a higher ceiling given the vast difference in off speed stuff. This isn’t to say Samardzija has no hope, but unless he improves (he can) he’s going to get lit in ’09.

Back to the original, my point was that Samardzija is only considered a top flight potential guy because of his contract, because of his past, NOT because of his actual talent. If his name was Todd Tedford out of Bowling Green and signed for 1.1 mil in the supp round (where Samardzija was actually projected on talent at the time) he’d be a mid-level relief prospect with a high ceiling and 25 people (Cubs fans aren’t people) would know his name. It’s similar to the Derek Jeter Effect.

His being IMO one of the worst investments in baseball was tangential to my point that I don’t think he’s very special to start with. (For the basic premise of the opportunity cost thing I’m not on record here, but I at the time of his signing was saying they could’ve signed Matt LaPorta and Kyle Gibson just with the money he got paid in 2006. They could have done similar every year of the deal. Anyone think the Indians would trade LaPorta for Samardzija? How about Mizzou violating the basic concept of professional baseball and dropping Gibson for him? How about both of them together. Oh yeah, you get to do that 4 more times.)

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Samardja

is also a local boy who grew up a cubs fan. Born and raised in Valpariso, IN up in the Northeast corner – in what we like to call the “cesspool” of the state.

I’d guess the no-trade clause was more his idea, and something his agent was able to negotiate.

"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win---- Bobby Knight"

by Knighttime on Nov 10, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny

I love this line…"He’s a mortgage-backed securities’ Chris Perez.

by patton044 on Nov 10, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the thing with Peavy

What is wrong with him? Why would a GM publically say he doesn’t have to hit a homerun with this deal?

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

either he is damaged or they are just plain desperate to shed salary.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 10, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

its been clearly stated

that they are cutting payroll due to the owners divorce

they are also trying to dump B.Giles if he waives his no trade

by FunkeeC on Nov 10, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If they have to cut payroll because the owner is going through a divorce

then that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Is there a reason why mlb would allow his divorce to force him to salary dump his best pitcher and if he did, allow him to still own the team?

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

from what i've heard, it's a pretty nasty divorce

the owner has already lost his box at PetCo. dude is being taken to the cleaners & he’s probably going to be forced to sell.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I read 49% of his 80% share of the franchise.

But I still see no reason why they’d have to cut payroll, especially their #1 ass-putter-in-seater. He’s the face of the Padres.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ownership is now split up, what? 4 ways now right?

owner, x wife, 2 partners if i am remembering right. please correct me if i’’m wrong.

any way, no one is wanting to work with & for the x. so they all are going to sell. and they want the new owners to not have a big payroll, so Jake has to go.

dumb right? you’d think a new owner would want to keep him. but that’s what’s going on if my memory serves me right.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm waiting for my theoretical future wife to argue about a pre-nup

And once I pull that string and get that argum….explosion started I’m going to sit there, say nothing for a little while, slowly grab my computer, and go to John Moores biography and display it silently.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

explosion, niiiiiice

just make sure you make & have more than her, or she’ll pull a Susan, laugh in your face, say she’ll sign anything & walk away.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And here is the deal: according to Tim Brown

Holliday for Street, Gonzalez, and Greg Smith.

link

Looks good for Colorado to me.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 10, 2008 3:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

imagine the terrible sinking feeling in Greg Smith's gut right now

“I lost 16 games in OAKLAND, and you are sending me to Colorado in exchange for their only star hitter?”

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 9:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I really thought that he would be good for us

I like trading for Greg Smith and I’m sad that Colorado did

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know nothing about the guy

but that 111K to 88 BB in 191 innings is a huge red flag. He got away with it because he had great defenders behind him, and played in a big ballpark, but when people stop hitting .258 on balls in play against him, watch out.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 10, 2008 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What I like about him is...

He is a lefty. He made 32 starts and 2 complete games last year something that we desperately need as our rotation looks pretty thin in terms of durability and depth. He is a great fielder. Duncan can certainly improve on those walks and fly-balls.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He is only 24

And he did pretty well in the minors – though not great in a limited stint in AAA. Not saying he’s the centerpiece of the deal, but I can see why Colorado wouldn’t mind trying him out in the bottom of the rotation. The park factor is a red flag, as are some of the other factors…..still will be an interesting thing to watch in my opinion.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh oh. looks like the Rocks just got Beaned.

Street is probably damaged goods. Didn’t I hear a lot about how Streets velocity was down this year?

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Nov 10, 2008 3:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

what about him?

he’s FA, (mean Corpas?)

"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh that's right

This is what happens when there is no filter from your head to your fingers.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You may have heard that

and I did a piece on that a couple of weeks ago. It was down all of 1 mph this year, I think. In looking at his numbers, I saw nothing that would indicate a problem. He just blew about 3 saves in a week and a half or so and that was it. I can’t help but think that if he hadn’t bunched those up so much, he’d have probably stayed in the closer’s role all season.

That said, I’d still prefer Perez but it won’t surprise me one bit if Street is spun to StL.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Street

Here’s the post I wrote a couple weeks back that included info on Street’s velocity. It was down slightly in the summer but, for the season, it was only down 0.4 mph from the year before. I got that number from the fangraphs page linked in the post. Also, I should point out that, though his mph was down slightly in June and July, it was back up over 90 on average in August and September.

by chuckb on Nov 10, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Colorado is now prepared to Flip Street

Do we have any interest for him?

How bout Skip and Boggs?

The Rockies will receive outfielder Carlos Gonzalez, left-handed pitcher Greg Smith and closer Huston Street in return, though they may not keep Street. One source said Monday that the Rockies are prepared to turn around and trade him — though to which team he wasn’t sure.

http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270335/11618874

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 6:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Boggs the insurance package this year for SP?

He has upside, but then again he could not develope another pitch and turn into a bull pen guy which the Cards have an abundance of RHP in the pen and he becomes redundant……

I don’t know but I think STL may want to consider holding onto Boggs until they can at least see if Carp is healthy.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 10, 2008 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Boggs

Once he gets his change up figured out he will be good. He has a huge mph difference between his fastball and his change up. I think the difference is in the top 5 in MLB.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

been on this bandwagon for quite a while, but if a changeup comes in and allows his LHB splits to regress some, he’s producing #3/#4 type numbers.

and with how great his fastball moves, you have to give him a chance to develop. it’s low risk (still a solid BP arsenal) high reward (cheap and solid numbers for occasional starts)

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 10, 2008 7:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually thinking about it

Since balls don’t break well in Colorado Jason Motte would be perfect there

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Visited the Rockies Blog

Not a fan, Not a fan at all. Just do not seem that intelligent what so ever. A’s Blog is solid though.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why in the world.....

Would we make that trade? I’d rather have Motte than Street straight up.

If they want Skip and something else, assuming Mo thinks Street has something left, I’d do that. But not Boggs, and not Motte.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Nov 10, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did Motte completely win you over?

I remember you being very leary about giving him any key innings around September callups, to the point where you didn’t think he should be compared to Franklin. Worried about whether he could get by with only a fastball. At least that’s what I recall – maybe I have you mixed up with someone else.

I realize it comes across assy here, but that isn’t my intent. Personally I wanted to throw him into the fire earlier to see what we had, because we are struggling so badly in the pen. I liked what I saw in Sept, but it was just a handful of innings, and as a result I am still wondering where his value/role should truly be.

I tend to think I probably would still trade him for Street. I wish we saw more of Motte though, so we could have a better read on him.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was hesitant.....

To bring him up earlier for alot of reasons. The fastball only…..his command issues…..and us being in the pennant race still. Once we kind of fell out of the race, and the games didn’t “mean as much”, and once Motte started throwing strikes in AAA (which he did the 2nd half), I wasn’t as opposed to bringing him up when he got the call.

I’ll also admit that I didn’t think he’d be as effective as he was. I’m not saying the guy should be untouchable, but why move him for a reliever that he is probably as good as, or only slightly behind in terms of what kind of pitcher he is today? That just doesn’t make sense to me.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Nov 10, 2008 8:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Every time I saw Motte pitch

Every pitch was a fastball right down the middle of the plate, a little up. He will have to develope some kind of consistent breaking ball to be good next year. Although a 100 mile fastball is hard to hit no matter where it is located.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 10, 2008 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Especially up....

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 9:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that breaking ball.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What command issues?

The guy has a K:BB ratio of like 8-to-1.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 11, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

offering thompson and franklins

roster spots when trying to acquire a reliever, could avoid the optioning of perez, motte, mcclellan or kinney.
street and 2 loogys w/out options, along with thompson/franklin is 5 of 7 pen members.

by ball in play on Nov 10, 2008 8:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh I could go for a Franklin about now

I think on my next batch of home brew beer I am going to make some ‘Franklin’ label’s for the bottles

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 8:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

$5 a bottle

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Nov 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not if you only market it to VEB readers

i’ll take two dozen cases please

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to go along with taking a six pack

but that’s a $30 six pack. Awfully pricey. Better be good and judging by it’s namesake, I can’t see how it would be.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm going to start my own bar, hence the high case number

i’ll be my best customer

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if you're a retailer then you should be getting a discount.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if the bar's in my basement, does that still count?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 11:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

man

every time i see you post i wish i would’ve kept that avatar for myself.

but it is perfect for you, considering your sig.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who's hand is that in your avatar?

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 11:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

seriously?

dr. claw

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if you want it, you can have it

seriously. it’s your creation, so if you want it, just let me know.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 10, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no way

its yours.

like i said, it fits with your sig. it just cracks me up when i see it. i don’t even know what possessed me to make that. i made a duncan skoal ad the same day for some reason. i guess i was just in a photoshop mood or something.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah.

I knew I knew it, just couldn’t place it. Plus I haven’t watched Gadget in like 25 years when I watched it religiously. Also, Mathew Broderick forced me to completely disown the character.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 11:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

uuuuuuuuuuuuugh.

why’d you have to bring up the film…

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Had to

Gives credibility to my excuse for not recognizing Dr. Claw.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 11:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh

I just felt old

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm 33, turing 34 in Feburary

I just flaked on it.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i just turned 27 a week ago

and felt old.

i feel better now. thanks guys!

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Happy Birthday, kiddo.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 10, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

never turn 30 kid

never turn 30

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 11, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which is…

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 11, 2008 3:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i’m not sure that’s considered “alternative”. what are you anyway, like 31? 34?

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 11, 2008 3:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

probably right

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 11, 2008 3:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and you make my point for me

didn’t occur to use the “preview” button on this one i see.

Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.

by Tackle Box on Nov 11, 2008 9:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

alcohol & late night posting are a dangerous combo

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 11, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing good ever happens after 1 am.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Nov 11, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really know any of you guys

But I get the sense there is a lot of alcohol consumed by a few of us. There may be a big enough market for this idea.

by Merry CRasmus on Nov 10, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

st. louis isn't just known for baseball.

i know a lot of chicago folk who think we’re all a bunch of drunken budweiser-pounding idiots.

psh. like i can afford bud.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't even drink beer anymore

It is only for guests and presents. Wild Turkey 101 is where it’s at

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

when i drink whiskey it usually leads to a

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TIME MACHINE!

Whiskey turns you into a bad 80’s movie?

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 11:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that or

getting thrown out of casinos and waking up in a strange place with a strange woman. or, in one instance, ending up in jail.
damn seven and seven’s…

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Nov 10, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh Seven is so good

Seagram 7 for the Cost minus Actual Value = Has the best team value imo

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 10, 2008 11:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

tequila is a hell of a drink as well

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!