Hot Stove Fanpost: 10/6 to 10/12
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Let me just go ahead and say now,
that my philosophy is that we should commit to bringing in high-value prospects by trading Ankiel and/or ludwick while their values have peaked, OR we should commit to winning next year by spending every penny of our surplus on Fuentes or Furcal and trading Rasmus, Anderson, and whoever else it takes to get a starter, and shore up any other weaknesses in order to win now.
In between those two, sort of rebuilding and sort of competing, I think is the worst idea because we will not be able to maximize the value we get from our currently cheap, extremely talented, and soon to be free agent core.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Oct 9, 2008 9:34 PM EDT 0 recs
Build for the future?
I ahve to admit, I don’t like the idea of trading Rasmus ( a guy who profiles to be an all star by the way) or Anderson (a good prospect who everyone is hopeful comes into his own) for a rental of a starter.
by tnek5 on
Oct 9, 2008 9:37 PM EDT
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agreed on moving Ankiel
not so much on Ludwick. Isn’t he under team control for 3 more years? My math might be wrong on that, but if he is, you sure the better hope that he will not have another season in the next three anywhere close to his 2008 season. I think that 2008 might just be the norm for Ludwick, I don’t want to trade a cheap, productive outfielder that we can put out there for the next 3 years just so we can get some prospects. That is just looking way too far down the road.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Oct 10, 2008 6:49 PM EDT
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I just think ludwick has already peaked, and while he is under control, his price tag is not,
remember what Ryan Howard got in arb?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on
Oct 11, 2008 11:34 AM EDT
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How much is too much to pay
for the No. 2 slugger in the major leagues? He’s a bargain at anything under $15 million if continues to put up those numbers.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 3:31 PM EDT
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And that's a HUGE IF with a HUGE price tag.
We will have to pay before we see if he has the goods to do it again.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on
Oct 11, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
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agreed.
You don’t trade away solid commodities, you build around them. I would be ecstatic if rasmus put up those numbers. For some reason people like to label players. What have you done for me lately??? I say trade Rasmus for a great MIF, not starting pitching. Lets give a young guy a spot. I like saving a spot in the rotation next spring for the Boggs/Todd/Motte/Garcia combo. Why not? one will earn it this spring and we cannot lean on Carp like we tried this August, remember how getting him back would be the same as acquiring a top pitcher like Harden or CC?…or Burnett?!?!!?
Point being, trade rasmus and anderson if you can get position players or relievers back. (good ones, obviously)
by Yadi on
Oct 12, 2008 6:15 PM EDT
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there is some control that teams have
in his arbitration years. He was great this year but he’s not going to get paid as the #2 slugger in the big leagues. He’ll get $3-4 M as a very good 4th year player would. Now, he may have already peaked and we may never see another season like this one again, but he’s still likely to be a very good bargain for the next 3 years — or at least the next 2. Ankiel, OTOH, stands to be a good bargain this year, but then he’s a free agent. His price tag jumps immensely. If Ludwick and Ankiel are the same player for the next 3 years — a step down for Ludwick or a step up for Ankiel — Ludwick is, by far, the better bargain b/c of their relative salaries. And we won’t be able to sign Ankiel for just 2 years if he continues to play well. He’ll get 4 — taking him to age 35. Would we have signed Torii Hunter to the contract the Angels signed him to? I wouldn’t have. But that’s probably a pretty good comp if Ankiel continues to improve.
by chuckb on
Oct 12, 2008 11:03 AM EDT
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re...Ludwick.
If he’s having a similar season next year do we try to extend him during the year when it might save us some money?
by cardzfanbub on
Oct 12, 2008 2:13 PM EDT
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I don't think so
he’ll be 31 next season and we’ll have him under our control through his age-33 season. I wouldn’t want to extend him past that until that last season and then, maybe not at all. How good will he be when he’s 34, 35 and 36? My guess is not very good and not nearly the player he was last year.
by chuckb on
Oct 12, 2008 3:51 PM EDT
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And to add to it
Ankiel is another lefthanded bat. We have a bit of a redundancy there.
by Merry CRasmus on
Oct 12, 2008 2:54 PM EDT
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Ankiel's improvement
Best case with Rick, imo: The team keeps him for next year, he plays 140+ games in CF with above average defense, hits 30+ homers with around a .280 BA and a .340 OBP, helps the Cardinals compete in the division and possibly get into the playoffs.
The team could then tender him an offer in the offseason that they think is fair, meaning that we’d tender him an offer similar to something we’d offer a corner outfielder, since that’s what he’d be for the Cardinals in 2010. If he doesn’t take it he’s a Type A free agent and we’ll get 2 draft picks in compensation for him in the 2010 draft. If we don’t trade Colby, we have a guy who could come in and fill that spot to start the season in 2010.
By having Rasmus waiting in the wings, we don’t need to trade Rick for value this offseason. We can hope he has a giant contract year this year and then make a decision at that time.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Oct 13, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
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Ludwick is not going to get Ryan Howard money
he hit 22 fewer homers this year than Howard did in his first full season, and the Cardinals didn’t hamper Ludwick’s career by keeping him in the minors for 2 full seasons when he would have been playing for just about any other team.
That said, he would probably be a bargain at that $10 million per season with the kind of numbers he’s capable of putting up, especially since he can fill in out in CF in a real pinch. You can’t say that about too many slugging corner outfielders.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Oct 13, 2008 12:01 PM EDT
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Great idea
This could get fun as we all like crazy trade proposals from passionate fans. (ok, not everybody likes to hear them). I think this would be my wish list in order of priority – trying to keep in the back of my mind approx $100M payroll (or a bit higher).
Hole 1) SS: FA sign a) Furcal, b) Cabrera, c) Izturis
Hole 2) LH Relief #1: FA sign a) Will Ohman, b) Joe Biemel
Hole 3) LH Relief #2: FA sign a) Joe Biemel, b) Jeremy Affleldt
— In house I would also try to sign Flores to a minor league deal and keep him around
Hole 4) 2B: FA sign a) Orlando Hudson, b) trade for Brian Roberts c) Felipe Lopez
Hole 5) SP: a) keep Pinerio use McClellan/Boggs if Carp can’t go. leave the option open for midseason acquisition.
Hole 6) Closer: If payroll is too high then they can/should use Chris Perez ; if they still have wiggle room: FA sign a) Trevor Hoffman, b) trade for Kevin Gregg, c) use Chris Perez
by Knighttime on Oct 9, 2008 10:10 PM EDT 0 recs
starting with the 40 man roster analysis over at Birdhouse
they are projecting that Duncan will be a super 2 and thus be arb eligible
they also list Miles, thompson, ty johnson and Flores as arb eligible in addition to wellemeyer, ankiel and ludwick
I think this diminishes the trade value of our favorite offers — thompson and duncan
it also, to me, means we should definitely dump flores
(1) LHRPs johnson probably still would be worth keeping for one LH relief spot and Fuentes is probably our top choice for adding to the pen. Scott Downs would be another option.
(2) SP I doubt that we target a big ticket FA SP………if we do sign a SP, its likely to be from the cut-out bin. All other things being equal, a lefty would be nice………….Randy Wolf anyone? Randy Johnson? Jamie Moyer? Is Warren Spahn still alive?
(3) 2B we and everybody else are in the hudson and roberts derbies…..so, I figure Lopez returns to higher cost and more typical production….say $4 mill for a weak fielding .720 OPS
(4) SS deal for a young guy who can field and maybe hit too……Zobrist, Y Escobar, Wood…..unless Greene is better and more ready than I think we have no internal options in the next few years
(5) impact bat its on TLRs wish list so its probably more in play than a top of the rotation SP. I am opposed to dealing Rasmus for this and would prefer a free agent to a trade. Type B free agent ideally……………………….hence my fondness for Milton Bradley, balky knees and all
by vances law on Oct 9, 2008 11:02 PM EDT 0 recs
The club is in a tight spot.
They can afford one star-quality middle-infielder. They can either go for a Furcal/Hudson/Cabrera at short and platoon Lopez and Miles at second, or they can go for a Roberts/Uggla type at second and re-sign Izturis at short. Either way, you can still keep Lopez and Miles around as your MI bench.
They can probably get one nice LOOGy (Ohman, Bannister) and one so-so LOOGy (Villone) unless Ty Johnson can return to form. The right side of the pen is currently overloaded with short arms (Springer, Izzy, Perez, Motte, Franklin). Only three of these guys will be staying, I believe, because you need one long man, two LOOGys, and an expected new closer.
As far as the outfield goes, this has been discussed ad nauseum IMO, but the current crop hits so well, it’s difficult to see how there can be a home for an “impact bat” out there. The “impact” would come at the expense of two of our top four hitters. I don’t see it. The only place to park another slugger is in the middle infield, and that means either Furcal, a trade for Tulowitzki, or a trade for Roberts, Uggla, etc.
In terms of the rotation, they could surprise us all and step up for Burnett or Lowe. I’m expecting no help at all on that front, save a “swingman” scrap-heaper who can take Brad Thompson’s role in the pen and do it worse for more money.
On the closer front, they have talked about Fuentes enough that I think it’s a strong possibility. Particularly if there’s a trade for a cost-controlled middle-infielder instead of a FA acquisition. I can see Perez as set-up/understudy, or I can even see Perez traded. But I think Tony’s made up his mind that Perez isn’t going to be the 2009 closer unless he has to be.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 10, 2008 1:43 AM EDT
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hopefully
we don’t carry 2 reserve MIs next season……..if we keep Lopez, he projects to start at one of the spots. I like the idea of Freese taking a bench spot to back up 3rd, 1st and pinch hit
I’m all for signing a Hudson or a Furcal and batting them leadoff…..just think we get out bid. So we deal for a young ss and bat him lead off lets just plug in the name Zobrist
the “Impact” bat in the OF works like this deal Skippy, sign Dunn or Bradley or Manny or Bay or Giles or Nady to play LF
they all had OPS’s over 800 and significantly higher than Skip’s last season……..the lowest was Giles at .854 (even with the Petco effect) compared to Skip’s .765 so lets use him as the example
OF next season becomes Giles in LF, Ankiel in CF, Ludwick in RF………Mather/Ras or Bart on bench
Ankiel is a FA after next season and so is TLR
2010 OF is then Giles/Rasmus/Ludwick Mather/Bart
by vances law on
Oct 10, 2008 9:23 AM EDT
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Pretty sure...
Giles’ option was/will be picked up.
Could Freese back up short? He’s supposed to be one of the best glovemen at the hot corner…he may be a better back up than Mario.
by cardzfanbub on
Oct 10, 2008 9:35 AM EDT
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I suppose you do it that way
But I’m assuming Rasmus and Ankiel are your everyday CF/RF starters. You certainly wouldn’t want to bench Ludwick just so you can pencil, say, Giles in the lineup. If Rasmus is out, it’s a different deal. But I also think Rasmus is a bit of an “impact bat,” too. He could be every bit or moreso than Brian Roberts from day 1.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 10, 2008 11:09 AM EDT
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Not sure what Uggla makes.....
But is it really impossible to both trade for Uggla, and sign Furcal?
I’m too lazy to look it up, but if we moved Skip or Ank for Uggla (plus spects, I know), I think we’d be okay, especially if we got to keep Raz and plugged him in.
by SoonerfanTU on
Oct 10, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
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I like that deal a lot
And I wouldn’t rule it out. I just think the club likes Lopez enough to give him the strong bat/weak glove position. I would rather just let him go before he regresses or boots a ball in extra innings.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 10, 2008 11:11 AM EDT
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Well.....
Uggla might be the only guy I’d rather plug into 2B than Lopez next year. Not saying there aren’t other, talented 2B, just that they likely cost too much $-wise, or prospect wise.
I was agaisnt Uggla at one time, but I think we can overcome any defensive shortcomings he’d carry over here.
by SoonerfanTU on
Oct 10, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
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the biggest problem w/ Uggla
to me, isn’t his Ks or his defense, but rather the bounty it’ll likely cost us to get him. For them to give up a cost-controlled middle infielder who hits 30+ homers will require us to back up the truck. Why would we do that? Sure, I’d rather have him than Miles or Lopez but is he really that much of an upgrade? He’ll up our payroll by $3 M or so (which, admittedly, isn’t that much) plus cost a truckload of prospects. It would seem to make more sense to sign Furcal or trade for Zobrist.
Hell, if we’re going to trade a ton for a middle infielder, I’d much rather get Tulowitzki.
by chuckb on
Oct 12, 2008 3:54 PM EDT
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The best reason why
is wearing No. 5. The club has to be planning for his extension already. Cost-controlled players will be an absolute must to step up payroll by $10-15 million a year to keep Pujols a Cardinal.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 12, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
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Signing Albert Pujols is the reason
why we should up our payroll now by $3 -4 M and trade for Uggla?
by chuckb on
Oct 13, 2008 11:41 AM EDT
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Uggla makes
the league minimum , but he is arb eligible so that figures to skyrocket next season.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Oct 10, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
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jhonny peralta
seems to me like a guy we should go after. it sounds like they plan on trying to make him fit at 3B since cabrera’s natural position is SS. Apparently they don’t have much RH bullpen help in the minors either. However, they do seem to have quite a few LH pitchers on their prospect chart.
maybe we work something out with freese and one or two of our plentiful RHP’s for peralta and one of their LHP’s.
just a thought.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Oct 10, 2008 12:59 AM EDT 0 recs
Outfielders might be attractive to them too
If they really want to deal Peralta, I could see us being a good trade partner for them. They have some pitiful outfielders once you get past Sizemore. I’m not sure where to grade Peralta’s defense for the position but his bat is a huge plus. His age makes him a good long term option. I’d really love to find a way to stop playing the stopgap game for SS every year. Doesn’t look like the farm is ready to help for 3 years or so, so let’s find a longterm option now and save ourselves the hassle of flea market shopping for a critical position for the next several years.
If you can’t find a trade partner for SS, then I’m inclined to make a strong push for Furcal.
I’m not inclined to spend money, or more importantly – years, to relievers. I wouldn’t mind a starter for a 1-2 year deal, or trading from the outfield depth for one after you figure out how SS will be addressed.
by Merry CRasmus on
Oct 10, 2008 2:04 AM EDT
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from what i could tell
some metrics have his defense above average and others right at average. although i think his range his below average which unfortunate since glaus would be to his right.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Oct 10, 2008 4:16 AM EDT
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Just my own two cents...
My personal dream trade would be Ankiel for Mark Beurhle. I know it’s not sexy, but it just makes too much sense, in my opinion. He would add another reliable arm to take pressure off Wainwright and Lohse.
Oh, and I suggest we try to trade Kennedy to Arizona for a bag of balls. Ok, so a AAAA pitcher would work too…
by mtzxc on Oct 10, 2008 4:10 AM EDT 0 recs
I'd trade Kennedy for a six pack of diet coke.
ok, so fourstick doesn’t like the Burrell idea…then I guess go after Perralta, or Furcal…I don’t like Cabrerra, and Renteria might work, but it won’t be the same ole’ Edgar.
I think we should get only 1 LHP, and see how Johnson holds up…remember, he was doing pretty well last year until tendinitis knocked him out. and he got overused.
I am still dreaming of a Burrell signing, but if that doesn’t happen…maybe we can get the “other” Rockies outfielder…Brad Hawpe!!! Come on, you know you wouldn’t mind him, especially if we get Furcal.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on
Oct 10, 2008 5:21 AM EDT
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And I just looked up his stats for this year
No Rocky Mountian air problems.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on
Oct 10, 2008 5:22 AM EDT
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Burrell is too expensive
and doesn’t field all that well. Short and second are the places to look for an upgrade.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 10, 2008 11:13 AM EDT
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and we don't need a LF
Burrell’s a nice hitter but doesn’t at all fit our needs. I like Adam Dunn a lot, but he can’t play SS.
by chuckb on
Oct 12, 2008 11:04 AM EDT
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Can they play 2B though?
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on
Oct 13, 2008 12:30 AM EDT
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Going ideal with the position players
If Cleveland could use an outfielder, as has been suggested, then I wonder what it would take to get Asdrubal Cabrera. I would like to see an Ankiel for Cabrera trade. I don’t know what we would have to throw in to make it work. (If that doesn’t work, then we get Brandon Wood…although, I like the better defense at SS.)
Then, I would like to see us sign Renteria to play 2b. (Like I said…this is ideal for me.) Edgar has lost a step and will still be a good 2B as opposed to SS..
Now, I hit a road block. Both Kennedy and Miles have the option of being on the team for next year. I only want 1 back up MI. With Renteria at 2B, you have your backup shortstop option, so either Kennedy or Miles would only have to play 2B, which is completely perfect, because you don’t want either at SS. Miles has played his way back on to this team, whereas Kennedy has not. I would say you cut your losses at this point and offer Miles arbitration. Once he accepts, you cut Adam Kennedy, unless someone will take him in a trade.
Staying on the infield, at the backup CI spot, I have to say that I don’t know what else David Freese has to prove at AAA. The kid will be in his age 26 season. In 2006, he put up a redonkulous .964 OPS in various A ball leagues. In 2007, he dropped to an above acceptable .889 OPS in high A ball. Last year, he skipped AA and in AAA hit with a .911 OPS. He committed only 10 errors at 3B last year. Brett Wallace is obviously the bat of the future, and it could come soon, so why waste Freese in the minors any longer? It’ll open up the spot for Wallace to start at AAA.
Resign Jason LaRue, unless you think Anderson will benefit more from Yadi than from playing nearly every day in Memphis.
C – Yadi
C – LaRue/Anderson
1B – Albert
2B – Renteria
SS – Cabrera/Wood
3B – Glaus
MI – Miles
CI – Freese
LF – Skip/Mather
CF – Rasmus
RF – Ludwick
OF – Mather/Skip
OF – Barton/Stavinoha/Jones/Duncan/Other
This would leave a LOT of money to work with the pitching staff, which is where I think it should be spent.
by stlfan on Oct 10, 2008 8:06 AM EDT 0 recs
I like the renteria at 2b idea
Renteria would be a great 2B, if he would go there. But I think you are undervaluing Ankiel. He is a gold glove centerfielder with 30 home run/100 RBI power in his prime.
Since we are dreaming:
Furcal SS
Ankiel CF
Pujols 1B
Manny LF
Ludwick RF
Glaus 3B
Molina C
Pitcher
Renteria 2B
With a bench of:
Rasmus OF
Mather/Barton OF
Freese 2b/3b
Barden/Lopez 2b/SS
LaRue C
Trade Schumaker, Kennedy
It would be costly, for a while too, but making the playoffs would be a certainty for at least the next two seasons and probably more since our minor leagues will be set to back up any fading stars, and the cost would be easily recovered via playoff revenues and merchandising. Roll the dice, DeWitt, bring in Manny and Furcal. I know it is a dream, but it is a good dream.
by abothecardinal on
Oct 10, 2008 11:05 AM EDT
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We have outfield depth and...
the trade for either Cabrera or Wood would likely shore up the SS position for 5 years. I do like Ankiel as much as anyone, but I’d say he is expendable at this point if he can bring back our franchise SS.
by stlfan on
Oct 10, 2008 12:58 PM EDT
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I can't see Raz on the bench.....
He either starts, is traded, or starts the year in AAA.
Contrary to what alot of folks think, I think the “where he plays” decision will have more to do with any potential moves we make, moreso than how well he performs in ST or anything like that.
by SoonerfanTU on
Oct 10, 2008 1:10 PM EDT
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I don't know
I think Rasmus as fourth outfielder would have plenty of at playing time with a Larussa managed outfield of Manny, Ankiel, and Ludwick.
by abothecardinal on
Oct 10, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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if this season is like last season
there is no arguing with that logic
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Oct 10, 2008 7:02 PM EDT
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Sure there is
That’s where you get at-bats for your back-up middle infielders.
What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray
by Tupelo on
Oct 10, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
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Raz
He’s either the 4th OF in St Louis or starting in Memphis. I really do not see him as the opening day CF for the big club. Maybe later in the season if he performs well – or Ank gets hurt again. either way it’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
by Knighttime on
Oct 10, 2008 8:03 PM EDT
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Ankiel's also
a year away from free agency, has trade value, and, b/c of Rasmus, is eminently replaceable.
by chuckb on
Oct 10, 2008 5:05 PM EDT
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from what i've read
it sounds like they would rather move cabrera to SS and have peralta be the odd man out. although they do have josh rodriuez in the minors. he’s still a year or two away though.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Oct 10, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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Look at Athletic Nation
the Oakland A’s SB Nation blog, and there they made an interesting trade proposal. Huston Street, Bobby Crosby, and Dan Meyer plus cash for Anderson and either Freese OR Craig. The A’s are probably the MLB team I know the least about so I can’t fully judge this proposal. Street used to be good but struggled this year. Bad year or injury problem? Same with Crosby, will he ever be good? Who the hell is Dan Meyer? How much do we like Anderson? I fully agree we should trade either Freese or Craig for something this year. Their value will never be higher and we have no need for both in the system. Please feel free to enlighten me on these issues or anyone else we could substitute in the deal.
by stl3bagger on Oct 10, 2008 8:21 AM EDT 0 recs
Rasmus
The inclusion of Rasmus was only mentioned if they offer us Duchscherer and some other pieces. The whole debate is about what is Anderson actually worth.
by stl3bagger on
Oct 10, 2008 3:05 PM EDT
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AJ Burnett
MLBrumors.com is saying that he may want a 5 year deal, and that Toronto may not want to go that long.
Does a 5 year, $80M contract make any sense at all for STL? I don’t know. I’d love to have him, but that would take away any flexibility we had this offseason. Be tough to fill the other holes that we clearly have.
by SoonerfanTU on Oct 10, 2008 1:17 PM EDT 0 recs
if we sign burnett
then our MI will be miles and iz2(maybe lopez) and our LHRP will be villone and flores
i’m ok with making an incentive based contract offer to brad penney
that and….SIGNING FURCAL….DO IT!!!
by VolsnCards5 on
Oct 10, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
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Injury risk!!!
We may already be paying Carp $15mil/yr to not pitch…I don’t think it would be good to have two guys making $15mil+/yr to not pitch.
by cardzfanbub on
Oct 10, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
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looking at the injury history
i’d say no. even for a less years i’d say no. throwing 200+ innings he is bound to have a down year next year. plus he’ll be 32 at the start of the season.
looks pretty scary imo.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Oct 10, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
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You're really paying 30% more than that
on an innings-pitched basis, simply because Burnett will spend time on the shelf. With Carpenter’s situation and the whole five-year-pitcher-deals-can’t-be-insured stuff from the last go round, I give something like that happening in St. Louis about a 2 percent chance. They would be better off signing Sabathia for $20 million than Burnett for $15. Not that that would happen, either…
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 10, 2008 3:55 PM EDT
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When's the last time...
if ever a player made so much sense for the Cards that there was as much of a consensus to pursue him as there is now for Furcal? I’m just curious because I always consider the Cards VERY unlikely to sign high priced free agents, and generally brush off suggestions that we sign them…Furcal might be an exception.
by cardzfanbub on Oct 10, 2008 1:40 PM EDT 0 recs
i agree
i think Mo hopefully makes a call to tampa bay, cleveland, LAA, boston, and atlanta and if none of those options are available or if they will just cost too much i hope he makes a strong push for furcal.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Oct 10, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
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Let me list the teams that an above average middle infielder doesn't make sense for
. . .
Done.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 12:50 AM EDT
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I'm not asking about other teams...
I’m asking about the Cards past. Trying to see, basically if there is any kind of precedent. Has there ever been a player that could fill both our biggest defensive and perhaps our biggest offensive needs at the same time? I understand that Raffy is a hot commodity, and will be handsomely rewarded. I also know that we went into recent offseasons with big question marks in spots (second base)…but was there anyone available who could have had the same impact Furcal could have for our boys next summer?
by cardzfanbub on
Oct 11, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
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The last guy like that
was Scott Rolen when he first came over. You could say Larry Walker accomplished the same thing, though with less overall impact on defense just because his chances were fewer.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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2000
I want to say Fernando Vina had that effect both defensivly and offensivly settling the 2B spot and leadoff hitter, but we also added Jim Edmonds and Mike Matheny that same season – so maybe Vina’s impact wasn’t as much as i’d like to think it was.
by Knighttime on
Oct 11, 2008 5:24 PM EDT
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I may be the outlier
But I don’t want Furcal. I love him as a player, but he will be too expensive. I don’t mind dreaming about getting Furcal, but as you stated, the Cards do not have a track record to outbidding others on the FA market. Jocketty’s record was based on small trades not outspending.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on
Oct 21, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
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I meant to say smart trades not small
D’oh.
e.g. Rolen, Edmonds.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on
Oct 21, 2008 12:15 PM EDT
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atlanta
how much do you think it would cost to get kelly johnson and lillibridge in a package from the braves?
it sounds like they are high on prado for 2B and lillibridge is obviously blocked as we all know. they could use outfielders i think but what else?
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Oct 10, 2008 1:55 PM EDT 0 recs
Trade with Atlanta
To get both of those guys we’d probably have to give up Rasmus + pitching/OF prospects or Todd, Boggs, and OF’s like Jay and Mather. They’re dealing from strength and they know it, and they waivered their best CF to Boston during the stretch run, so they’ll need someone to replace him out there. With Francoeur regressing and a platoon in left, it seems like they need OF help as much as anyone right now.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Oct 13, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
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that's the feeling i had too
i’m guessing they will get quite a few calls on those two players this offseason.
i’m just thinking that maybe we could work a deal around ankiel. I don’t know what kind of value the rest of the league is putting on him though (even pre-injury). i have a sneaky suspicion that we value him much more than everyone else. can you describe him as a less hitting adam dunn that plays better defense and plays center?
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Oct 13, 2008 4:29 PM EDT
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No, you can't
Because Dunn has posted an OBP better than .380 every single year he’s been in the majors. He’s also hit 40 homers before. Ankiel hasn’t done any of those things and he hasn’t been healthy for an entire MLB season yet either, and that includes his time as a pitcher.
If there’s one thing that we overvalue here more than anything else, it’s his defense. He’s not a GG caliber centerfielder, and most of the defensive metrics don’t have him rated as one either. He takes bad routes to the baseball pretty often and doesn’t have the speed to make up for bad routes or bad jumps. He has a killer arm, which everyone knows after the game at Colorado, but he’s pretty average in all other aspects. I think he would be an above average right fielder, but he’s not an above average center fielder imo.
Reminds me of the argument I used to have with people over who was better in their prime, Griffey or Edmonds. I would always say Griffey, because Ken would catch balls on the run that Jimmy would be diving for. He didn’t make a lot of spectacular plays, but Junior was the best CF around for most of the 1990’s.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Oct 13, 2008 5:27 PM EDT
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ankiel WAS a GG caliber CF
He was the best defender in baseball by RZR through the middle of July. It was the late august-september timeframe, when he hurt himself and was unable to run, yet TLR kept sending him out there, that made his defensive numbers look the way they do. He also lost almost 50 points of OPS in that timeframe.
The injury concern is a very valid one, and he is no Adam Dunn offensively, but he is a good CF when healthy and is worth more than Dunn overall.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on
Oct 13, 2008 5:55 PM EDT
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What would it take...
Realistically, to get Peavy from the Padres and Greinke from the Royals?
Do we have the chips to do that?
Ankiel, Anderson, and Boggs for Grienke
Rasmus, Perez/Motte, Craig, Jay/Jones, and Pineiro/Thompson for Peavy (slash lines mean either or, not both)
That would leave us with:
C – Molina
C


