Do the Cards Have What the Cubs Lacked?
My first Fan Post! Hopefully not as incoherent as usual. I stopped by The Hardball Times to see what they said about the Cubs knock-out. Or knock-off. I've been digging through post-Cubs stories, not to rub it in as much as to figure out what _not_ to do when you're a loaded franchise out of the NL Central. Think of it as a failure analysis.
It struck me that Tim Dierkes echoed what the BBTN crew said: the Cubs don't have anyone that scares the cleats off opposing pitchers. So goes the article:
The offense does not have a scary monster that teams go out of their way to avoid, like an Albert Pujols or a Manny Ramirez.
I don't think they're saying that's all a team needs, but it's like this, well, "impact player" is a key component to post-season success, something to put them over the top. Agree? Disagree? Is that all the baby bears need? Or are the problems just too deep? (It's worth noting that the same outlets mention that the Cardinals' standing pat through the trade deadline as one reason we didn't contend.)
My gut instinct is that the sheer hunger of our Cards squad is the edge when all things are equal. As the NL Central starts to change from a two-team joke to a four (or even five) team rumble, and more owners consider opening up their pockets, we've gotta stock up for leaner times. Personally I don't think that impact player needs to be an overpriced star; witness David Eckstein. (Well, exorbitantly overpriced.)
It's hardly a convincing argument, though, since "hunger" and "spark plugs" and "leadership" can't be measured in numbers. Team concept is pretty nebulous, especially with a closed-doors clubhouse like the Cards'. Vets have time and again have contributed off the field, including some of the guys on the DL — that has to help a young team. Reputation can affect what the other team does, too, i.e. the teams who didn't dare run on Ankiel under any circumstance.
At the same time I'm not sure it's fair to use the 2008 Cubs as a cautionary tale of what happens when an otherwise talented team doesn't have that mix of cohesiveness and hunger. Maybe it was something else like: being out-scouted, or being streaky, or simply not having to deal with adversity (24-22 in one-run games vs LAD's 31-21), or helping knock out the Mets. More data is needed, or at least more seasoned opinions. What do you think? Talent and money being equal, can one player complete the equation? And if so, do the Cardinals have the edge in that category, or do we need to go get it?
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25 comments
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From what I remember this season
in head to head matchups vs the Cubs and Brewers, the biggest thing the Cards lacked was the ability to get that clutch hit with men on…and the inability to not give up home runs.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Oct 6, 2008 11:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
clutch hitting
How does anyone shop for that? The Cards as they’ve been constructed the past few years (protect Pujols, platoon everyone and their dog) really needs clutchiness IMO. Do the scouts just call in and say the magic code word (Taguchi)?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 8, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was merely
stating the relative inability to predict who would have won those games, and who should have won the division.
Clearly the cubs had best production overall throughout the course of the year…but there was a strong possibility of the Cards winning the division with much less production from every position until the pen imploded…which probably couldn’t be been stopped once Izzy went down.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Oct 9, 2008 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just askin'
I really am wondering if/how scouts look for clutchiness.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 9, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With their eyes.
Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
by Tackle Box on Oct 10, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 2008 Cubs...
reminded me a lot of Piniella’s team from 2001 with the Mariners (116 wins-fell apart in playoffs). A lineup that had some big RBI guys, but no scary threat (remember, Jr. and A-Rod were not on this team). They scored a ton of runs and had 5 decent starting pitchers who could give you 6-7 solid innings per outing (Freddy Garcia was the ace). I felt that the biggest difference with the Cubs this season from that team was when they traded for Harden. I thought he put the pitching staff in a position where they had their ace that could be lights out in the playoffs.
All I know is that the Cubs are getting old and big contracts are kicking in, so it may be very soon that I don’t have to hear a Cubs fan complain about the curse, but more about the ridiculous backloaded contracts they can’t dump (Fukudome, Soriano).
by Jumsy on Oct 7, 2008 12:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Harden
Anyone notice he has had only one truly solid year in his career? And he is 26??? How much longer is he going to pitch?
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Oct 7, 2008 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by one truly solid year
You mean one truly healthy year, then yes, I guess you have a point.
2005-2008 has certainly been riddled with injuries, but the guy has posted a 2.56 ERA over that span. He’s fragile, but he’s a monster.
He’s going to pitch for as long as he can consistently dominate when healthy, just like everyone else.
by mojowo11 on Oct 7, 2008 4:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden
Rich Harden is always solid…it’s just a matter of getting him on the mound. The guy has unhittable stuff, and is the kind of guy who could throw a no-hitter or win a Cy Young if he puts together a full season. That’s his issue.
I have wondered about the question you pose at the end of your post quite a bit though…Is he going to get to a point where he’s just had enough and hangs it up? I hope not…I’d hate to see someone so brilliant not have a greater impact on the game, even if he does play for the Cubs.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 7, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the question about him
He has a reputation for wanting to take extra days off in between starts, especially after games in which he throws over 100 pitches. Who’s to say he wouldn’t want to take a year off, or longer?
But, what stood out to me in your comment was this line:
The guy has unhittable stuff, and is the kind of guy who could throw a no-hitter or win a Cy Young if he puts together a full season. That’s his issue.
I would have changed that slightly to say…
“The guy has unhittable stuff, and is the kind of guy who could throw a no-hitter (If he could put together a full game) or win a Cy Young if he puts together a full season. That’s his issue.”
jk.
Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
by Tackle Box on Oct 8, 2008 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your addendum
…is indeed correct, sir. A tip of the cap to you…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 8, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what , you couldnt find a Card tipping his cap?
you had to sully this place with Joba?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 9, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 9, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano didn't qualify as a possible lights out in the playoffs ace?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 7, 2008 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Zambrano is a wildcard. You are not really sure what you are going to get from start to start. He can be unhittable, but so have many other pitchers who are not considered lights out ace. I just think he isn’t consistently effective to that degree to be considered that lights out type pitcher.
by Jumsy on Oct 7, 2008 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you might have a good point there
and I don’t think Harden is durable enough to be a lights out ace. One of those needs the ability to consistently go deep into games, has Harden ever been that guy?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 7, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, he has not
Most of his starts are spent with the very watchful eye of a trainer stalking him like the grim reaper.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Oct 7, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
thats what I meant, one year with well over 150 innings, the rest of the time has been spend on the DL, or watching him very very closely…
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Oct 7, 2008 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
From a Cubs point of view
I think things are being over analyzed (sp). All year long Aramis Ramirez was an insanely clutch player. The Cubs were so good all year long.
The only problem I feel that is big for the Cubs right now is Soriano, and his unleadoff style of hitting * and 10 year $375M contract *. (I feel like Kosuke Fukudome will figure it out during spring training. It was his first year after all)
You can’t say anything bad about Zambrano. He showed up. Yes he did give up the 3RBI double but come on, he had gotten like 6 outs that inning already.
The Cubs just didn’t play well. If they had played solid defense the games would have been closer to game 3.
by cubsfaninatl on Oct 8, 2008 11:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Re: ARam, it’s not like Albert had his absolute best series in the WS (though we later found out there were personal issues at the same time).
Soriano, just wow, I don’t know what to say sometimes when I watch his games. It’s not enough to be inexcusable, but it’s inching there.
And Z did show up. As did DLee. The rest of it was inexplainable to me. It seemed beyond ‘the team went cold’.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 8, 2008 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember
anything about Pujols’ personal issues in 06.
by spants on Oct 9, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his uncle passed away
During the NLCS. (I think his aunts and uncles basically raised him.) It’s not a total explanation for his performance on the field, nor do I think his play was terribly out of character. It just wasn’t hyped-up Fox-ready performance.
I am not sure about Albert’s moodiness at the time — not enough information besides what the media said. Point being these guys are human beings, and consistency can be thrown off by any number of things that are none of our business.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 9, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
small sample size.......
i don’t think it’s roster design, as much as it is some of the well known cliches, coming to truth…..
“in a short series any team can get hot and………” or “good pitching beats good hitting”.
LAD did lead the NL with lowest ERA. but, they also were swept by the nationals.
cubs had a bad series, dodgers didn’t, probably looks like an oversimplification. but it fits.
by ball in play on Oct 9, 2008 8:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
for completeness' sake
BCB asks a version of this question.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 15, 2008 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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