Congratulations
by chuckb on Oct 30, 2008 7:00 AM EDT
in St. Louis Cardinals News
Email
PrintI really didn’t think they had the lineup depth or rotation depth they needed to pull this off but, if there’s one thing we’ve learned about the postseason, it’s that the postseason rewards strength over depth. And the Phillies proved to be strong. They’re lineup is stout – Rollins, Utley, and Howard are as good a 1, 2, 3 punch as anybody in baseball has. They’ve also got Werth and Victorino to create a solid top-5 in the lineup. It is a stars-and-scrubs lineup, to be sure but, in a short series, anything can happen. Carlos Ruiz, one of the scrubs, batted .375 and had a 1.188 OPS in those 5 games.
The rotation, again, has strength – power at the top in Cole Hamels – and probably lacks solid depth. Still, b/c anything can happen in a short series (is it trite yet?), even Moyer and Blanton – 2 pitchers the Rays had to defeat – came up strong in games 3 and 4. The Phils pen had more power. Ryan Madson, J.C. Romero, and Brad Lidge pitched 10.1 out of the 44 innings the Phils’ staff threw during the series. Add in Hamels’ 13 innings and the Phils had their 4 best pitchers throw more than half their innings.
The postseason rewards strength rather than depth. In 5 World Series games, the Phils hit 9 home runs to the Rays’ 4. We hear a lot about being able to play "small ball" in the postseason – that’s what wins championships. Ummm…actually, it isn’t. It’s being able to score runs w/o getting 3 hits. It’s being able to score runs by hitting the ball out of the ballpark as the Phils did expertly this postseason. They hit 19 HR in 14 games against, presumably, 3 of the top 8 teams in baseball. On the mound, the Phils’ staff struck out 110 batters in 123 innings this postseason – 8.05 per 9 innings. Power on the mound; power at the plate – the Phillies had it in spades ‘lo these 14 games.
Not only did much of the Phils’ team – and most of their stars – come up through their farm system, but their payroll is remarkable in its relative frugality. The Phils, with all their stars, had just 2 players earn as much as $10 M this year – Pat Burrell and Ryan Howard. BTW, neither of those players was a high-priced free agent acquisition. They both arrived via their farm system – as did Hamels, Utley, Rollins, Madson, Myers, Victorino, and Ruiz. They do have some dead weight on their payroll, though none of it carries a huge contract. They’ll carry Adam Eaton for another year + an option buyout. They’ve got Geoff Jenkins for 1 more year but Tom Gordon’s and Tad Iguchi’s contracts come off the books at the end of the season. Eaton and Jenkins, combined, will earn just $1.25 M more than Carpenter will next year. Do you think they’ll get less from those 2 than we’ll get from Carpenter next year? Sadly, I don’t.
There’s a lot that we can learn from the Phils’ success as we approach the offseason. The first, and probably most important thing, is that we need to pursue stars, and eschew average to above-average players at their expense. What does that mean? Hang on to Rasmus. Mo will be tempted to trade him for someone like Matt Holliday – my greatest fear this offseason. Holliday’s a nice player but he’d only be a Cardinal for 1 year before free agency takes him away. Rasmus may never be a star, but we’ll never know until we put him out there. The Phils never knew if Utley, Rollins or Howard would be stars either, but they traded away vets – Polanco and Jim Thome – to make room for Utley and Howard. Is there any doubt that those moves paid off?
The second thing we can learn from the Phils’ postseason success is that there is considerable value in the ability to hit the ball out of the ballpark and the ability to miss bats. Sure, the Phils have a lot of speed as well but they didn’t win the World Series b/c of their ability to steal bases. They hit 9 homers to their 7 steals whereas the Rays had 4 homers to 7 steals. We know that a lot can happen in 5 games, but you can’t defense the homer. You can’t throw someone out at 2nd on a homer. And you can’t score 2 or 3 runs at a time on a stolen base. It’s true that a stolen base can ultimately create a run on occasion -- B.J. Upton’s romp around the bases in game 3 proved that. But the Phils won even that game, in no small part b/c of the 3 home runs they hit that night.
When trying to fill out our pitching staff, we need people who can miss bats. We’re going to need a left-handed reliever – someone who (hopefully) can get Utley and Howard out next October. Will Ohman, for his career has average 9 K per 9 innings – higher than Brian Shouse, Jeremy Affeldt, and John Grabow. Strikeouts don’t skip through the infield for hits and they don’t carry over the fence either. The organization has a tendency to admire the ability to keep the ball on the ground. We need a couple of guys on the staff who can strand the runner on 3rd w/ less than 2 outs.
The essence of this missive is to suggest that, when building this team, we need to build the kind of team that can win championships, rather than contend for the Wild Card. If we want to win the World Series, we’re going to need multiple bites at the apple b/c it’s not an easy task to accomplish. I’d like to contend in ’09 as well, but not if it’s at the expense of 2010 and 2011. There’s a lot we can learn from this year’s champs.
On another note, there’s a pretty good piece on the Cards’ minor leaguers over at milb.com. In the AFL, Brett Wallace is starting to hit a little and Tyler Greene has really played well. Derrick Goold thinks Greene might be next year’s McClellan. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m a bit skeptical. It’s true that he’s playing very well in the AFL – and has even increased his BB rate to 11%. Unfortunately, his career minor league BB rate is just 7.4%. He walked 33 times in 536 PAs last season. Maybe he has turned over a new leaf, and I hope he has, but Greene hasn’t had a minor league OBP greater than .340 since 2005. Still, let’s bring him to camp and see what he can do.
219 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
fyi - there was some demand for this
For some reason, from last out the media outlets have been breaking out the 2005 memories. For “context”. So while it’s pretty crummy for the insane job Lidge did this year, some might like these Pujols mentions.
And now, So Taguchi. No comment on Kan Taguchi.
GO NL!
I dunno… I’m not sure I’m entirely on board with this. One, there was a failure to execute small ball in many cases, so of course the long ball will break things open. Both teams were largely depending on when their big hitters would get hot again, and no thank you. I can watch a crap shoot in a casino. Two, the Phillies outlasted the Rays in their bullpen and middle infield. Three, as long as we have our pitching coach, the Cards are built to pitch to contact, and that means strengthening the defense. And the bullpen. Did I mention the bullpen?
This WS was too much of a wrestling match to really figure out a formula of ‘how to win a championship’. It was two teams winning with the long ball, so of course someone is going to win with the long ball. The team that executes its game plan wins. The Rays about beat themselves over the head with the sudden onslaught of errors. I don’t see a reason to change our game plan, at least not yet. I just want guys who can execute it.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
sorry if that came out snippy, the coffee is taking too long
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
is the gooch wearing toe socks?
i never would have guessed.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
C'mon Chuck
They’re lineup is stout – Rollins, Utley, and Howard are as good a 1, 2, 3 punch as anybody in baseball has. They’ve also got Werth and Victorino to create a solid top-5 in the lineup.
how do you leave Burrell out of this statement? he had several big hits for the Phils over this postseason and maybe more than anyone else. even though i am sure you didnt do this consciously, it just goes to show you how underrated he is. he might not hit .330 like Utley or 50 HR’s like Howard but he gets on base a lot and can hit the ball a long way often which just happen to be the two most important things you can do. Congratulations Philly!
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Victorino was a rule 5
from the Dodgers. When they didn’t want to carry him on the roster all season, they offered him back to the Dodgers and the Dodgers refused to take him, allowing them to send him down.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 30, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
if that's true
then every other team in baseball also didn’t want him, since he had to pass through waivers to get to LA. That’s a pretty good story.
the enemy's gate is down.
Very nice summary
of this year’s WS, chuckb. The Phillies provide some valuable lessons on building a winning team from within and you have outlined them rather concisely. A good point about building to take multiple bites at the apple though. The Cards learned from their failures in the ‘04 WS to succeed in ’06. The Phillies did likewise. After falling far short last year, the Phills got up off the mat and grabbed the ring (literally) this year. Unlike the Cubs, who simply repeated their failure in spite of having a better team in ’08 than they had in’07.
Ahem /clears throat/. I, for one, would like to apologize for my part in the silliness that permeated yesterday’s thread. I lit the first match and then later threw gasoline on the fire. Sorry. Yet, in spite of all that, there was intelligent discourse provided by many posters about the topic at hand and even the state of our middle infield. So, Viva El Birdos!
I enjoyed it but would like to see it die
I think a one day delve into insanity is nice occasionally but that isn’t the type of gag I want to read all winter.
PS Did anyone else here that the Giants are looking for a left handed first basemen?
Impressive Phillies Postseason
They had only 1 loss in each postseason series. The 1999 Yankees and 2005 White Sox only had 1 loss a piece in the entire postseason. The Phillies really deserved this world championship.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
well I've had my coffee but now I'm pissed off
Something to watch out for in the latest in idiocy. Tell Mo we won’t stand for it, so forth. The lastest ESPN shenanigans (read: Buster Olney) is suggesting the World Series being held in a neutral site. That the chatter is all about that. Hey the football fans do it!
As far as I know, no mention of 1) unlike football, baseball parks do not all have identical dimensions, 2) if any of these games had been played during the day, none of this weather would have happened. Effin hell! As though the weather on November 1 is suddenly so much different than the weather in mid-October. But scientifically the weather can go from mild to impossible depending on when the sun is shining, including through cloud cover. That’s the only reason we’re suddenly having these “problems” after over a hundred years of World Series!
I hate the media. Oddly Cris Collingsworth is the only one who mentions this bit of common sense, before bowing to the ratings stupidty. ARGH. The ninth inning is at midnight, not prime time, I wonder why the ratings are so bad.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
At the Very Least
Why not start these World Series games during the week at 6:35 PM central? The games wouldn’t end quite as late then. On weekends, start the World Series games at 3:05 PM central. That would be late enough in the day for those in the pacific time zone to get home from church on Sunday to catch the first pitch.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
I could see pushing the WS up 25 minutes on week nights
but it’ll never happen with the weekend because if you push up weekend games to 3:05 central/1:05 western, then you’re competing directly with college football on Saturday and (more importantly) on Sunday with the late kickoffs in NFL.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Howard MVP
Pretty sure this will ice it for the media.
Or maybe they’ll open it up to the fans so we can all vote for Aramis Ramirez.
they vote before the playoffs
That’s why albert didn’t win in 2006. This will be a nice reverse. Albert wins the mvp when the cards don’t make the playoffs and the phils win the world series. Nice pay back for when howard won the mvp without making the playoffs and the cards won the series.
The phils and veterns
I do have one issue with the post. Chuck, you mention that the Phils gave up on veterns to make room for their younger players like Utley and Howard. That is true they did, but those players proved themselves ready before the veterns were let go. Howard had a monster half year while Thome was hurt and Utley was a part time player for the an entire season. They earned that spot by putting up numbers that couldn’t be ignored at AAA and then shining in their audition at the big league levels. That is a very different situation from where Colby is at right now. I don’t think that the Phils would have moved Thome or Polanco had the season before Howard or Utley had subpar years and spent half of the season hurt. Also, when the Phils made the move to those young players, they were not contenders. They were a struggling franchise that hadn’t made the playoffs since 1993. While it’s nice to compare them to our team and look at how they have constructed their franchise, lets realize that our franchise has made the playoffs 7 times over that same span, won a world series and been in another.
David Bell
was the veteran they wanted to get rid of so Utley could play 2nd and Polanco 3rd. Detroit, however, would only take Polanco in return for the immortal Ugeth Urbina, now furnishing relief for a Venezuelan prison team, having been convicted of murder with a machete.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 30, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Attempted murder
And if I remember the story right he got attempted murder because he doused them in gasoline and was very nearly going to light them on fire not the machete threat. [Insert joke about closers/fiery personalities]
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
Thanks
I do remember the gasoline part of the story. I thought it was an actual murder. Sorry.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 30, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but that's the story the venesuelan gov't is spinning
he very well could be very Innocent, but we’ll never know because of the crooked gov’t
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
every bullpen has its ups and downs I suppose. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Pop Ups
Hey All – sorry to be off subject. For the first time in a long time I am getting popup ads every time i come to the site’s home page. They cover the text and actually can’t be closed. Anyone else having this problem? I know Larry dealt with it a little over a year ago…
get firefox
It allows you to block all popups. From the “tools” tab, you’ll see an option to block popups.
Ditto.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Also
I’m finding that Chrome loads the page much faster and I also don’t have to deal with the pop up problem.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I'm using IE...
(at work where IT gets pissed if DL software). I’m not having any trouble with pop-ups, and I’m not seeing where they are blocked.
by cardzfanbub on Oct 30, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
IE7
On IE7 go to “tools” then “pop up blocker” pretty simple.
Also I use the Firefox addon “ad block plus” I turn it off so that I see ads on sides I care about helping out, such as VEB, but recently I have had to turn it back on again on some of those sites just because of insane ads that move and make sounds and are just annoying.
Had a feeling I wasn't the only one getting pissed
Yeah I use IE version 7 at work and it is not stopping the pop-ups. Also I cannot find a way to close them. The Dodge ad only covers some of the text but there was one earlier I had to reset the page to try for a different less annoying uncloseable pop-up.
pop ups
i get the popups on ie, but when i click at the toolbar, it disappears, where if i try doing something with the popup itself, i get no results
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 31, 2008 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe
You should stop swinging so late on the balls and getting to much underneath them
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Carp
You mentioned not expecting much from Carp this season and certainly this is a realistic expectation. The one glimmer of hope I see is that in limited duty in 2008 Carp was very effective. Zips or one of the projection systems for 2009 had Carp making 10 starts but pitching like a top of the rotation guy in those 10 starts. Hope at least exists that Carp can give us 10-15 solid starts. Every start Carp makes takes one away from Pineiro / Thompson / Boggs (whoever the 5th starter happens to be) … meaning it’s a huge lift if Carp pitches anywhere near the vintage Carp level. I’m mildly optimistic Carp will contribute to the team in 2009.
I'm optimistic about Carp as well
then again, I’m also optimistic that Pujols will bat .400 with 60 homers….
But in all seriousness, I think that in an effort to be conservative with our estimates, we are really selling short the chances Carp has of pitching in 2009. I think he has at least a 50% of being a solid contributer, because the medical approach they chose wouldn’t have been based on the idea that “there’s a 20% chance this’ll work.” I’m not saying we should mark him down for opening day, just that we should still leave him on the table, so to speak.
As I just typed “table” I thought “operating table” and shuddered.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 30, 2008 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm optimistic
but that damn video showing his “inverted L” makes me less and less so on a daily basis. Especially since the author of that site claims that these mechanics cause elbow and shoulder issues: Carpenter has had problems with both of those. Ugh. I keep getting the feeling that we’re never going to see him pitch 200 innings and get 30 starts in a season again….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
We need to separate the cause from the symptoms
Carpenter has poor timing and therefore poor mechanics, always has had. But TJ was supposed to, and did in fact, fix his elbow. The rehab seemed to be about average as these things go.
The nerve problem is something else entirely. It’s disheartening—as it was in the fall of 2004—to see him sitting around apparently healthy but unable to pitch. If Paletta says the nerve condition will recover on its own, then I believe him. That doesn’t mean it will stay recovered, but I actually think Carpenter has a pretty good shot at pitching a full load this season.
Saying he’s done, or anything like that is extremely premature.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2008 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say he was done
I said I don’t think we’re going to see the 2005,2006 version of Chris Carpenter again. The 200 inning horse that anchors your pitching staff Carpenter. He has poor timing similar to Kerry Wood, who had TJ and then has had all kinds of shoulder issues after that. We haven’t seen the big time shoulder problems yet, but nearly every pitcher on the list of guys with this problem has had some sort of shoulder issue during their pitching career.
I don’t think the nerve problem is going to affect him going forward, but it just exacerbates the other injury issues because it flares up inconsistently.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
an off the wall idea
but if Carp can’t pitch a full load or they are worried about his arm, why not give him a shot ala Wood/Smoltz at closing for a season. It might help him build up strength for a season before returning to the rotation. It also solves a one year closer situation.
the conditioning program for a starter
bugs me, after the lack of IP over the last 2 years.
if 25 saves led to 25 starts x 2 or 3 yrs, i’d take it.
by ball in play on Oct 30, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Carp Closing
Smoltz has said over and over again that he felt that the bullpen work was actually harder on his arm over the course of the season — and this is a guy who’s had a similar injury to what Carp is coming back from. Sure, you don’t throw a lot of innings, but you also throw that 1 inning much more frequently. It helps with guys who have repetitive stress injuries, but I’m not sure if it’s going to help him. Plus, then we effectively have a $15 million closer for the next 4 seasons and he’s not helping us in the rotation.
I really don’t like the idea of putting him in the bullpen. That kind of decision needs to be last resort, similar to how it was with Kerry Wood.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
fair point,
and it might not be the solution. Just trying to think outside the box a bit. It would suck to lose Carp for another year without getting ANY use out of him. Not saying that the closer role would prevent that. We’ll see.
after 08.....
not helping us in the rotation is the new norm, regardless of salary.
is it due to the conditioning a starter must adhere to? he was on a starters regime through rehab and 1 start.
is the conditiong of a 100 pitch count, leading to his unavailability? i have heard his mechanics questioned.
is a different usage by role, what increased smoltz availability? woods?
i’m picking something over nothing, even if his closers salary would be viewed as high.
a conservative 1 yr approach to evaluate his results, before making a different role decision.
different camps, np.
by ball in play on Oct 30, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
What if
he is only part of the closer committee and shares the role with Perez and/or Motte? Then he wouldn’t have to throw so often. I say this only as I would like to get at least some value out of him if he is unable to start. Plus, he could eventually rejoing the rotation and take the training wheels off the kids.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I don't think that works
He’s either a starter or he has some other type of role on the team. The closer by committee rarely ever works because I think players, pitchers especially, need some type of role on the team. It’s better for them when they know what to expect, know how they’ll be used, and know what their job is on a day-to-day basis.
I think he either comes back as a starter (best for the team) or comes back as a closer (distant second, imho). I agree that the club needs to get whatever it can out of the investment that’s been made, but I think you have to look at him as a starter until he proves that he just can’t handle the workload.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I guess we just have different expectations
I refuse to allow myself to believe Carp is going to be able to start until I see it. I was responding to the comment above that stated Smoltz said it was harder to be a closer, at least for him, than a starter. I just didn’t really have any place else to put him that would generate any value.
I think defined roles are great, but they can also be a luxury. Whether we like it or not, it is unlikely this team is going to have a well-defined closer situation at the start of the season.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I'm totally setting myself up for disappointment
But the fact that basically everyone (even the rational side of me) has written him off as likely providing next to nothing makes the contrarian in me start talking crazy things. I mean after all he had pretty much the same problem in ’04 right? That seemed worked out.
OK maybe I just really really miss the world class F-bombs he’d drop when he hung a curve, or missed a bunt, or walked someone, or got to a 3 ball count, or threw a first pitch ball, or hit someone, or gave up a run. That and his whole “I’m not Joel Pineiro” thing he has going for him.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
so if I'm not Jo-El, I have that going for me? sweet!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 30, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
A big hitter the Dalai Lama
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
+ total consciousness
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 30, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
But only on your deathbed
shall it be received….so you got that going for you…
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Lessons and team comparisons
Different teams have different strengths and there is no magic combination that makes it work or not work. With that said the Phillies had significant strengths that seem to obviously be weaknesses for the Cards:
#1. Middle infield star players who were very good defensively and offensively.
#2. Shut down closer and very good pen depth.
#3. Phillies have three STAR PLAYERS and good players to fill in the other everyday spots. The Cards have one Star Player and several good players and a couple of below average players to fill in the everyday positions.
#4. Phillies have very good speed at the top of the order.
The big surprise to me is that the Phillies were able to win with their starting pitching. They realistically did not stack up with the Rays pitching but they did have the very good #1 starter which is huge in the post-season. It is hard to believe that they won with their #2 and #3. I have always believed that you had to at least have two stud pitchers and maybe three for post-season – The Phillies obviously got by with marginal pitchers at those spots.
Three stars
The Cardinals have Ludwick (#2 in slugging in MLB), and borderline stars in Ankiel and Glaus. I don’t think it’s hitting that’s the problem, except at the bottom of the order.
I will agree that speed is an element we could use. Of course the Rays had even more speed and it didn’t get them the runs they needed.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
which of these 4 is not a star?
Burrell, Howard, Utley, or Rollins?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say Burrell
If anybody, because guys like Jay Buhner put up similar numbers over the course of their career, with better defense mind you, without making an All-Star team more than a couple of times.
I think Burrell is a borderline “star” — and he is if we’re talking strictly about Q rating.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Minus one, but plus two?
So maybe Burrell isn’t a Grade A star, but what about Lidge and Hamels? Both have been all-stars, and each just attained a new line on their resume (perfect save season, World Series MVP).
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Oct 30, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
...whose fastball goes slower than a semi...
and who has calluses older than Scott Kazmir.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I see your Ohman's...
9 k’s/9 IP (8.1 in 2007 and 2008) and raise you Rhodes’ 9.7 K’s/9 IP since 1995 (9.8 in 2007 and 2008). I’m gonna keep tooting his horn, as he can get out both righties and lefties, and will come a couple years and several million cheaper than Ohman.
i would not be heartbroken
if we got Rhodes…of course i wouldn’t be heart broken if they brought back Jesse Orosco as long as he got out left handers…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
So long as it isn't Flores and his collapsing K-rate I'm fine with it
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
collapsed
deflated, maybe even imploded
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Our whole bullpen has a horrible K Rate
It was in the lower 5 of all baseball
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 30, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
MLB's This year in baseball awards
So I was looking at MLB.com looking for the awards schedule when I decided to vote on the TYIB awards. It wasn’t until I got to “play of the year” that I realized the people choosing the nominees must be completely stupid. Neither of Ankiel’s outfield assists makes it yet a lot more common ones did. I just don’t see how it didn’t at least make the nominees list.
those two throws
had to be the best plays of the year, right?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That is my opinion but at least top 10
they didnt even get nominated for the top 10 list to choose from.
My favorite part about that play
is when Glaus hands Ank the ball afterward. I mean, have you ever seen a guy keep a ball for a defensive play? That’s special.
"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell
Though I have to admit
Before looking at the Max Ramirez video I thought “Yadi had a similar play!” but then I watched it, Max got bowled over at homeplate and when the pitcher alerted him that the batter was running to third he sat up and fired a bullet to 3rd for the out.
The Triple Play was just luck for the most part, nice grab but if the hit and run hadn’t been on the runner from first wouldn’t have been around 2nd when the ball was caught.
so did someone nominate them yet?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/y2008/tyib/index.jsp
Go there and the select plays:
Beltran and Kapler save homers
Edmonds running up the hill in Houston
Reed Johnson taking a header into a wall
Cabrera turning an unassisted triple play
Max Ramirez getting bowled over then pegging the batter going into third
Harris with a diving catch (one I have seen Duncan make before, so nothing special)
Hannahan going into the dugout to make a catch
and Phillips sliding behind second then running to the bag to start a DP (to me the Kennedy glove flip was better, but meh)
wow
how is alexi ramirez’s play not on there?! the one where he shoveling the ball with his glove from his side. that play was freakin outstanding!
who is picking these things? i can’t believe i’m saying this put espn did a better job then these people are.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
My favorite is missing form that list.
Who do I complain to?
It was Carlos Gomez of the Twins, catching a homerun just over the baggie (Twins don’t have a wall) in gloved hand, and catching his cap in his right hand before it and he hit the ground. Superb! Good hands, man……
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
That should have atleast...
made it on the oddities page, there are some odd plays but that one is one of the best I have heard of, though the ball rolling along the top of the way then swiped back down into play was kinda cool too.
Congrats!
in My Bio I mention I am from Philly and I am the only family member that doesn’t root for the Phills. So to all my brothers and sisters, and the rest of the Famdamily I would like to congrats! Hopefully next year we can meet up in the NLCS!
If anyone from the family reads this and is planning on going to Narberth before you get on the train you must stop at Narberth Park. Go to home plate and toast Pop Pop. Then get on the train and go to the parade!
new dance partner in the NL Central
Brewers name Ken Macha to manage.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
To which millions of sports fans everywhere say...
…Ken…who?
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Ken "I used to be a puppet for the A's and am probably the least inspiring manager hire in history" Macha
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
can anyone explain his firing history?
Multitasking… at first glance it’s like every possible way to lose or leave a job…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 30, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm
I really though it was going to be Bob Brenley.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
SI.com wrote that
Brenly didn’t just blow his interview, he typhooned it.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Oct 30, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
wow. hadn't heard that.
maybe he just really enjoys sitting next to Len Kasper?
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
That's sad
But it can’t be much worse than working with Chip Caray or Tim McCarver….
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Oct 30, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Marriotti wanted him
to climb down out of the broadcast booth and take over for Dusty.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 30, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he can still do that
in Cincinnati, after Dusty ruins Volquez and Cueto like he did Wood and Prior…
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Oct 30, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Turning point for Philadelphia
Bottom of the 8th in Game 3, the first World Series game in Philadelphia in fifteen years, the Rays have just tied the game with three runs off Philly’s vaunted middle relief core, and Jayson Werth gets picked off second base — a phenomenally stupid play. The Second baseman was standing on the bag, he made no secret of it, and still Werth took a ten-step lead. Ryan Howard was up with only one out before the pickoff – a prime scoring opportunity. This was when “The Phillies can’t get hits with RISP” was the primary meme of the World Series.
This being Philadelphia, I would have expected BOOOs to rain down from the stands. I expected the fans to turn on their team, and against their fate, just like the Cubs’ fans did in Game 6 of the 2003 NLCS.
But they didn’t. At least, not loudly. The home ballpark as a whole kept their hope alive. And I thought to myself: “They may actually do this.” Good on the Phillies, and Phillie fans. They deserve it, if for nothing else, for actually showing some brotherly love.
Hell, they might even invite JD Drew to the World Series Parade. He can ride on the Duracell float.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
sea change
"These people have embraced this team. We can see it driving home after games. If we lose, it’s not, ‘Oh, boo. You suck.’ None of that. After we lose, they’re eager to pick us up and say, ‘Get ’em tomorrow. We’re not worried.’ "
Let’s hope it lasts.
…booing Bud was vintage, though.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 30, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but booing the Rays after your team just won the World Series?
Classless assholes.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
one step at a time
who knows, maybe they’ll stop harassing infants and small children
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 30, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Since they won
maybe they’ll be nice to Santa Claus this year too.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Oct 30, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
They've been storing up their Scott Rolen boos for a whole year now that he's not in the NL.
Got to redistribute the wealth.
No Scott Rolen + No JD Drew in the NL
= a rise in domestic abuse in Philly.
But I bet the stores have tons and tons of backstock on batteries….
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Did you hear them boo
Bud Selig?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
Everyone boos Bud
That’s not exclusive to Philly.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Once watched some games in Philly. First one, 7th-inning stretch some nuns were invited to dance on the dugout roof.
Fans booed them. Next night some guy arranges for a diamond vision offer of marriage. Fans booed the couple and began hurling insults – “I gotta dog bettern that one, pal” . . . and the like. Girl ran off crying.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
toronto played in philly this year
may 16-18. rolen received his usual welcome.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
damnit
I even thought – “What about interleague play” and then decided to be lazy and play the odds that they didn’t meet.
You people and your facts!
If you didn't see it with your own eyes...
then it never happened.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
If that's the case
then my 401k really didn’t lose 35% of it’s value in the last 8 weeks, because I haven’t looked at it to see what the damage is like……lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
keep telling yourself that!!
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Turning Point
I don’t know about the fans, but the biggest single event for the Phillies this off-season has got to be that home run by Stairs in the NLCS.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Oct 30, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
tyler greene
I’m irrationally optimistic about this guy and I have been ever since he started sucking. Given a situation like Kyle McClellan’s, in which there is absolutely no expectation for him to do anything useful, I think he’d be a very pleasant surprise. No real weight behind that opinion, only my optimistic winter hunch.
As much as I'd love to see it
I didn’t see much of anything from him in Springfield. I’m not ruling him out, but he was pretty bad for most of the year.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 30, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
When you said “sucking” and “greene” and “irrational,” I thought you were talking about trading for Khalil Greene. Glad you’re not.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
definitely
why trade for a low-OBP slugger shortstop named Greene with a good defensive reputation who might struggle in the majors when we can just grow our own?
you know, that makes me wonder
i commented recently that we oughtn’t criticize aramis ramirez for winning the hank aaron award, because he was probably the third best hitting ramirez in the national league in 2008. now i wonder if the voters just got him confused with the other two?
also, does tyler greene look like spicoli? because that would be totally rad.
"does tyler greene look like spicoli?"
no, but i hear Jeff weaver is tryingto re-invent himself as a MIF. We should give him a shot.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
If he ever learns to make consistent contact
he can succeed in the majors. That said, this seems like a blip on the radar — I’m not holding my breath.
if he does make it
as goold says it will be a lot like mather and mclellan. Neither of them showed much prior to mid 2007. maybe a switch to 2B was all tyler really needed.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Groundbreaking
The second thing we can learn from the Phils’ postseason success is that there is considerable value in the ability to hit the ball out of the ballpark and the ability to miss bats.
You don’t say!
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
it's funny how those skills are ever de-valued
but time after time you hear about somebody saying “this team needs to produce more runs and stop hitting all these homers” or “i don’t care how many strikeouts he gets, i care about winning games”.
Well we do have a pitching coach that wants our pitchers to HIT more bats.
So not everybody gets it.
Cause or Effect ?
If you have a staff that doesn’t think missing bats is important you tend to assemble a staff that lacks that skill.
OT: the royals
have just traded leo nunez for mike jacobs. is it possible that they have no idea of the importance of obp. this year guillen’s obp was .300, teahan’s .315, and now jacobs at .299. what’s worse is that jacobs will block one of the butler, ka’aihue or shealy trio, three guys who will occasionally take a walk. i’m glad i’m not a royals fan
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
the royals figure they could score more runs if they just get more rbi guys.
or something? i am really confused by this. ka’aihue is pretty interesting and has an awesome name to boot. poor joe posnanski…
it's not
just the obp, three of the recent additions have been jacobs, guillen and olivio. what else do they have in common besides being hacking, low obp power hitters? they’re all terrible defensively.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
How did Jacobs manage to
compile an RZR of .624? 55 points worse than any other 1B in MLB and only 15 OOZ to boot. Does he use a glove?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
So they could have had the same player for free...
they have minor leaguers already that project better, Phelps was just released by the Cards and thus available, and yet they choose to give away a reliever…..who is running that team?
Joe Morgan?
Quote:
I liked Jacobs’ consistent competitiveness and his bat speed is similar to Gary Sheffield. Right handed set-up men have very little value on the trade market, so I felt that I was getting good value. Getting on base isn’t near as valuable as hitting home runs and consistently hitting the ball hard, even it it’s right at someone.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I saw that yesterday
thought that was the right time to make a comment about it….lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
In normal circumstances
I’d call shenanigans for his having compared (white) Jacobs to (black) Sheffield, but Joe Morgan is above that law, he can compare ANYONE to Gary Sheffield, even a white left handed first baseman with no plate discipline and 1/4 the power.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
they gave away a very good reliever
then again, if you want to look at it that way, we released a player whom might have had trade value…
the enemy's gate is down.
Phelps was released?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine by me as long as KC stays on our schedule . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Just want to make one remark on payroll
When you say “their payroll is remarkable in its relative frugality”, it should also be noted that their payroll was only $4M or so less than ours last year.
11. St. Louis 99,624,449 12. Toronto 97,001,500 13. Philadelphia 95,479,880
the enemy's gate is down.
There are other bogus "lessons" here too.
Another has to do with the draft. Yes, over the last 5 years or so, the Phillies have been more successful at growing a roster from within than St. Louis has. However, on average they have had MUCH higher draft choices to do it. The average Philadelphia draft position from 1998 to 2007 (2008 is too recent to have had any effect on the ML roster, obviously) was 14.5. The Cardinals’ was 21.9. That makes for a huge difference in the available talent pool.
Personally, I don’t want our team’s performance to decline so badly that we can profit from the Philadelphia “example” on building via the draft.
by StanTheManFan on Oct 31, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The draft is meant
to help build the poor teams and bring the top teams back in line. You HAVE to supplement the draft with free agents and trades if you want to stay good year in and year out. The problem with the old mentality the Cards had was that growing from within was not worth anything and trading a late first rounder was better then keeping him. At least that is how it felt. Hopefully now the mentality is that prospects are worth enough to hold onto your best ones instead of trading for a rental.
The point is taken
on draft position, but the fact remains that the only three significant players the Phillies drafted that the Cardinals didn’t have a chance to take were Pat Burrell, Brett Meyers, and Cole Hamels. In 2000 the Cardinals passed on Chase Utley to take Shaun Boyd. Ryan Howard was a fifth-round pick. In 2003 the Cardinals chose Daric Barton (one pick ahead of Carlos Quentin) and Stuart Pomeranz before the Phillies even had a pick. In 2005 the Cardinals chose Colby Rasmus, Tyler Greene, Mark McCormick, and Tyler Herron before the Phillies got to take their first pick.
MIchael Bourne was a fourth round pick that was packaged to obtain Brad Lidge, and Andre Cardenas was a second round pick that was part of the trade for Joe Blanton.
From 1998 to 2007 the Cardinals drafted higher than the Phillies in 2000, 2003, 2005 and 2007.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
""has taught us....is that the postseason rewards strength over depth."
strength of impact players, i agree. especially over 7 games.
14 players (3 sp’s, 3 rp’s, 8 pos plyrs) can play the majority of a 7 game series.
if depth can provide a large impact in limited playing time, it’s a plus that was unexpected.
the phillies had effective impact preformances, spread out evenly accross their 14 most played.
they earned it, and deserve the celebration.
nice post, very much appreciated.
Depth gets you to the postseason strength wins it
In the season you need a 5 man rotation, you need days off for your starters, etc. to get through all the games. In the postseason Pujols would never take a day off, you can pitch a 3 man or at worst 4 man rotation, you get multiple “travel” days off to rest up the bullpen. Depth is important but only in getting you into October.
lack of depth........
in any one phase (RE: 2008 BULLPEN), can prevent a postseason.
by ball in play on Oct 30, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
This team was deep positionally (weak in MIF but deep nonetheless) and deep in starting pitching (covered for injuries to several starters) but just couldn’t handle a back of the pen implosion.
relief pitcher losses
chc 24, phi 23, mil 24, lad 24, stl 31………..7 reliever losses above postseason teams avg.
save situation losses
chc 5, phi 6, mil 8, lad 8, stl 13………………6 (save situ) losses above ……“………..”……….."
non save losses
chc 19, phi 17, mil 16, lad 16, stl 18………..1 (nonsave situ) loss above…….“………..”………"
franklin, kinney, motte, perez are depth in 09, without lidge type impact.
by ball in play on Oct 30, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
kinney still has an ERA+ of infinity
not even Lidge is THAT lights-out ;)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kinnejo01.shtml
the enemy's gate is down.
actually going back to sept 13, 2006
un-scored upon, for 23 innings and counting…
the enemy's gate is down.
wow
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
it has a "by committe" look
8 losses off phillies pace as a staff. 8 losses behind cubs in saves.
by ball in play on Oct 30, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
"closer by committee" is fine
if the committee is made up of good pitchers. if it is made up of Ryan Franklins, it probably isn’t fine.
Then again, ryan franklin and russ springer combined to be a historically good bullpen in 2007…
the enemy's gate is down.
my favortie line from the Mo chat
Mo speaking about colby
Fact, if he shows up in shape and has a strong spring, then you will watch him wearing a St. Louis Cardinals uniform.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Well you are just mistaken
I mean, it’s just your opinion that .300+/.400+/.600+/1.000+ is a strong spring. If you could see to the heart of the matter like TLR you would have been able to deduce that Skip Schumaker was an everyday player and leadoff hitter while Rasmus just wasn’t ready. [/end sarcasm]
I would love to see Rasmus’ reaction to Mo’s quote. I hope he is a complete beast in ST.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
would it have been better
if he had answered “yeah, colby is in the doghouse; he doesn’t have a chance to make the team out of spring”?
methinks no.
the enemy's gate is down.
It was a "no correct answer" question.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Well they kind made that corner for themselves
I’m just boxing them in.
It’s a hard question to answer but by putting conditionals that we, as fans, can readily (and at least somewhat accurately) measure, they’re asking for problems. My PR answer would have been “We’ve got a lot of very capable outfielders in our system right now and in the majors. We’ll have to assess how to delegate playing time after the offseason depending on who is with the team still and who we think can perform well over a full major league season.”
That’s me saying nothing with a whole lot of words.
that is very PR
but people would have freaked out over that one too. I can hear, “What’s he gotta do to get playing time?” and “Let’s see if he can earn it this time” and stuff like that.
Doesn’t matter what or how PC the answer was, people were gonna rip him for the answer. That’s not a fair question and isn’t worth asking. What’s the point of asking a question that has no acceptable answer?
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
We've got to have something to talk about in these parts
don’t we? Unanswerable questions are like finding a golden goose.
This statement wasn't made going into the 2008 ST though
That is the difference. Going into 2008 they wanted him in AAA, now he has seen AAA and they are willing to give him a chance at the team. Completely different situations. I know you are a minor league guy so I know you understand the whole “service time” and such. I think the idea was to gain one more year of Rasmus’s prime age with the MLB club. He was 21 this year which leaves lots of room for improvement and growing throughout the year and I think they wanted that to occur in Memphis not in StL wasting a year of service time.
While I may agree that he should have been on the ML team this year you can’t compare ST 2008 to ST 2009 that easily.
They absolutely said
that it would be a competition in Spring Training in 2008. That’s one of the reasons that some suspect Rasmus underperformed this year because he was disappointed after being told that if he performed well he’d make the team.
Competition isn't the same
They said it would be a competition, as in someone to keep against. They added veteranness into that equation and he lost out. This statement is different. Now he just has to compete with himself. If he has a strong spring like last year he is in, no competition about it. At least that is how I read it.
Rasmus will be in AAA
Nothing has really changed in the Rasmus situation. He still will be held in AAA at the start of next season to prevent him becoming a super 2 player. There is no way he can play his way onto the team out of spring training with the cardinals save money philosophy. IT is reasonable to believe we will see Rasmus in St. Louis around September.
by Waxing Gibbous on Oct 31, 2008 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I kinda hope you're right...
it just makes a TON of sense to do it this way. That being said I think a lot depends on who is still with the team and healthy at the end of March. If we lose one or two of Ankiel, Ludwick, Skip, Mather, Barton or Duncan to trade or injury…Rasmus has to be on the team (assuming Mo doesn’t add a veteran to the mix). I think it’s very likely that he could be forced on the team for lack of other options.
Dave Cameron wrote a great post over at USSMariner
a while back about holding players in the minors for monetary reasons. He basically questioned the ethics of that decision. It was a good read — worth looking up.
What does ethics have to do with either business or baseball development?
It’s hard to argue that Rasmus should have been on the team last year when we all saw how he performed at AAA espeically when we saw how the outfielders performed with the Big Club.
He needed (and still needs) at bats. He wouldn’t have gotten them last year and if he would have, it would have been at the expense of Skip. If the team was in the bottom part of the division the entire year, I wouldn’t have minded.
Now, this year might be a different story. He’s a year older and we could very well see a situation where Rick or Skip or who knows is traded opening a spot for Rasmus to get regular at bats at the major league level.
Of course, if he does get regular playing time, we’ll all have to make room for the Let Mather Play and the Let Barton Play crowds to be heard, I suppose.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
If Rasmus is sent to AAA only because of a desire to
in essence not promote him and save money, there’s some ethical questions there. I’m wasn’t talking in reference to last year — just looking ahead to Spring Training.
If Rasmus struggles through ST
there are no ethical questions to ponder.
The only way to know if there are ethical questions involved is to let the season play out with a couple of things happening.
1. Rasmus has a great spring and is sent to the minors
2. Rasmus has a great year at AAA and doesn’t get called up to the Cardinals until September.
Otherwise, you really can’t point the finger. If he struggles in ST and/or has a bad year at AAA or comes to camp with a bum knee then you can’t say the Cardinals are acting unethically because ultimately they would have been proven correct in their evaluation. And of course, the club will never admit they didn’t promote him based on money. So, we’re forced to wait and see what happens to make a legit conclusion.
Honestly, I think this whole thing about Rasmus is blown way out of proportion. He’s what, 22 years old? He’ll be with the club soon enough and when he is, the whole Super 2 stuff isn’t an issue. They aren’t going to let him go year to year signing 1 year deals that escalate ridiculously. They’ll eventually sign him to a club friendly deal that locks him up though arbitration. That is, if he is actually pretty good. But, then again, that might be considered unethical as well since the club is once again looking to save money with this kid.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
I'm not looking to point the finger if scenario 1 or 2 doesn't happen
The premise of my comment was holding players in the minors for monetary reasons [I guess I should have said purely monetary to clarify]. If he tanks then send him to AAA.
But what happens
if he has a good spring training and still gets sent to AAA where he struggles most of the season?
I would think we’d be hearing a whole nother round of the same stuff we heard last year about how he earned his spot on the team but was sent down anyway, presumably for monetary reasons, right? Well, it wouldn’t be until we saw that he struggled with AAA again, that we would see that it’s possible the evaluation was correct. That he needed more regular at bats at AAA.
But, once again this is putting the cart before the horse. And honestly, the more we talk about this kid, the higher our expectations go. I hope when he does get called up, he outshines his projections. Heck, I hope he’s on the ML roster day one. That way if he succeeds, great. If he fails, okay. Then he’s got some things to work on. Then again, I’m sure we’ll all have to hear why it’s not his fault and he’s being yo-yo’ed through the organization.
Ultimately, I don’t think the Cardinals can win in this situation with the Rasmus fans. Whenever he gets his chance, it’ll be too late, if he’s great they’ll question why they didn’t see it sooner, and if he fails it’ll be because of mis-management.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
It depends on your "crowd"
I’m finding out that if you’re in the “pro-Rasmus crowd” then there’s no significant reason, other than him losing a limb, that he shouldn’t be on the opening day roster in 2009.
I believe Tackle Box and I are in the “wait & see crowd”, which is composed of people that look at our outfield depth, have seen what Rick, Ludwick, Mather, and Skip have done in their body of work in MLB and AAA over the last two years, and can’t figure out why you’d just pencil in a guy because he’s a top 10 prospect even though he hasn’t had a lot of seasoning at the AAA level yet because of injury. He’s 22 years old for Pete’s sake! He will be on the club soon enough, so why push things for no reason at all?
As TB said above, he may yet get a shot to win a job in ST, and if he has a great spring, the club might try to move someone like Ankiel or Skip to make room for him on the roster. That would be the best for the team, quite frankly, but you can’t just say he should be starting over Ankiel or Skip when they’ve proven they belong over the last 2 seasons.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
yeah
and don’t forget, the player’s union had just as much say as the owners in creating this system. If it’s all a business, as the player’s union tells us, then there are no ethical concerns in treating a player as a business asset rather than a person. You can’t have it both ways.
the enemy's gate is down.
Go back and check my comments at the beginning of the year
I actually said that the team was justified (even smart) in sending him to AAA. He could use the work against lefties and refine his game. I’m not just a Rasmus fanboy.
My problem is the disparity between what the team says the criteria for making the team is and then the action they take in deciding who makes the team. I don’t think those two are in sync and that’s frustrating to me.
Your last paragraph is the paradox of veterans. Just because they’ve proven what they can do doesn’t meant they’re guaranteed to do that again. Also, no player can prove anything in the majors until they’ve been given the opportunity. There’s a cost-benefit analysis to be made between Rasmus’s upside and the more predictable future performance of players like Ankiel and Skip.
Absolutely agree
My problem as well is that the public statements aren’t in sync with the club’s actions. Now we are poised to repeat the scenario all over again. Totally unnecessary drama that doesn’t help the team.
Mo’s comments could also be used by other GMs to devalue our OFs because they may think he HAS to move somebody.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
If Rasmus...............
was to be on the team this year he should have been on the roster in September to get some valuable experience. The fact he wasn’t told me he was going to be in AAA this year again.
Moz said the same stuff last winter in regards to Rasmus having a chance to make the team out of spring training but failed to clear that comment with Tony. You will see Lopez used as an OF this year if Tony feels the need to use one. Thats the veteran we will have.
by Waxing Gibbous on Oct 31, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess I'm just not following the difference between
a “strong spring” and “competition”. Maybe that’s just me though.
One implies that he has others compete with the other doesn't
A competition is usually between multiple people, thus if he had a strong spring it didn’t matter since other would have had to have a weak spring, yet most had relatively good springs(Skip), were veterans(Ludwick) or had other factors (Duncan, Barton and Ankiel).
The statement this year basically says, it doesn’t matter who else is there or what they do. If he does good then he makes it on the team.
I believe the words used last year
were something to the effect that Rasmus would be given every chance to make the team.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina won the Fielding Bible awards
Incumbents Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina won the Fielding Bible awards at first base and catcher, respectively, according the annual awards that are decided by a panel of experts and featured each winter in the Bill James Handbook.
Pujols, the St. Louis Cardinals first baseman, has won three consecutive Fielding Bible awards and this is catcher Molina’s second consecutive. Unlike the Gold Glove awards, which are determined by a vote of managers and coaches and given to a player at each position in each league, a Fielding Bible Award is given one to each position. A year ago, Pujols was the only member of the 2006 winners to repeat.
thanks for that
I just sent that to a cubs fan who of course thinks derek lee is the be all and end all of defense.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't trust anything
that I don’t have the opportunity to vote 25 times for.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
online. on espn.com.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
vote early and vote often
is the chicago motto after all. also encouraged: voting while deceased, bussing homeless people over to iowa to vote there.
my favorite tandem. awesome.
(Please God let Yadi get the Gold Glove.)
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Why is the GM Meetings so Soon?
You think they would at least wait till 15 days after the World Series so Free Agency was open.
Are you actually relenting this?
I can’t wait for somethings to start happenning…after all we’re thinking big trade more than big FA signing. It could be a HUGE week for us – probably won’t, but could be.
I thought they happened in December?
Or is that the Winter Meetings?
I think I’ve just answered my own question.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
what happens in Vegas
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Shocking stat about Albert
among pitchers who Pujols has over 15 PAs against, who has held him to the lowest OPS?
Ron Villone
He’s 2/15 with a walk against RV. A .321 OPS. Just found that interesting.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
so it's the other hitters' fault that they're not Albert Pujols?
Again, are we sure Villone’s on our payroll?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Good argument to sign Capt. Ron long term and DFA AP I suppose
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
you should post that on Bleed Cubbie Blue
and get a thread going about how Villone is the answer to all their Pujols related problems…..LMAO
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Hmmm
So the Tigers declined the 11 mil on Renteria paying out the 3 mil buyout, implication being he’s valued well cheaper than 8 million.
BB-rate took a hit, K-rate improved—-but of more relevance to me is that his batted ball profile was nearly identical to his career line yet BABIP .30 points off. A BABIP back at .323 and his line looks more like .290/.340/.400 in a tougher league in a death-to-hitters park. How is this guy NOT worth signing for ~5 million?
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
Because it would probably be for 2 or 3 years.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Two Years/15 to 18 million
Will still be cheap compared to anything we would have to pay on the Free Agency Market. As long as he can be a 2 Win player it will be fine.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
While Comerica
was originally a “death to hitters park”, it has been modified and was ranked as the sixth best hitters park in MLB by ESPN’s park factors calculation. Edgar’s home OPS was .824, but only .582 on the road.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Help me here....
Am I actually reading the 2009 schedule right? The Yankees are opening their new stadium with the Cleveland Indians? Cleveland? WT#!! Does that make any sense from a baseball or business perspective? Cleveland? Help me out here.
I realize this is off topic, but I am flabbergasted……..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I'm not exactly sure what "baseball perspective" means...
but it makes perfect sense from a “business perspective”.
I assume you are wondering why they aren’t playing the Red Sox? Big rival and all, right? Well, Red Sox games are guaranteed big draws, Indians not so much (although with a new Yankee Stadium that probably isn’t an issue). Anyway, you take a crappy team and send them in there when there is absolutely no chance the place doesn’t sell out for 3 days.
Then later in the season, you send in the Red Sox who are once again going to sell the place out. If you send the Sox in on opening weekend, you waste a bullet on a guarantee sell out.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
I'm surprised they aren't opening with the Mariners
when you put it that way…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Seattle, Cleveland, Texas, Oakland, Kansas City, etc, etc...
There were lots of choices they could have gone with.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Okay, I guess that makes sense. But maybe then it should have been
K. C. I just assumed the Yankees would want maximum hoopla. Which says it should be the Red Sox or maybe send Tampa in there.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
They probably don't want to lose.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Jocketty *really* likes Mulder, doesn't he
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Yeah...except...
we all know that if he gets signed and pitches…his line for the YEAR will be 1 GP (vs. STL) 1 Win, 6 innings, 4 hits, 2 runs, 2 earned, 4 K, 1 BB…and we’ll look stupid…until it’s found out he’s injured again and then BOTH teams will look stupid.
or 1-11
with the win coming against us and the losses coming againt MIL and CHC.
the enemy's gate is down.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Baltimore’s tradition of fans shouting ‘O!’ during national anthem sparks interleague feud
- Chris Perez follows rant against Cleveland fans with even better rant against Cleveland fans
- Pitcher Clayton Richard gets key pinch single in 13th after coming in 0 for 16
- Livan Hernandez welcomes ball boy to the bigs with shower of sunflower seeds (VIDEO)
- Man beaten by four others in Dodger Stadium parking lot
