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hot stove 10/28-11/04

i'm re-posting lboros' roster matrix for reference.   community question, who are the diamonds in the ruff of the 09 season.  those unappreciated, misused, unhealthy and generally unknown players that come out of nowhere every year to have a nice impact with their club?  think grant balfour, y. soria, carlos pena kind of production for a small investment.

STARTERSBENCHROTATIONPEN
molina c
$3.3m
miles ut
$2m
wainwright rhp
$2.6m
perez rhp
$400K
pujols 1b
$16m
duncan lf
$600K
lohse rhp
$7.1m
franklin rhp
$2.5m
kennedy 2b
$4m
barton of
$400K
pineiro rhp
$7.5m
motte rhp
$400K
glaus 3b
$11.3m
mather of
$400K
wellemeyer rhp
$2.5m
mcclellan rhp
$400K
[vacant]
- - -
ryan ut
$400K
carpenter rhp
$14m
kinney rhp
$400K
schumaker lf
$450K
rasmus of
memphis
boggs rhp
memphis
thompson rhp
$500K
ankiel cf
$2.5m
anderson c
memphis
todd rhp
memphis
jimenez rhp
memphis
ludwick rf
$1.8m
freese 3b
memphis
mortensen rhp
memphis
worrell rhp
memphis
TOTAL
$39.0m
TOTAL
$3.8m
TOTAL
$33.7m
TOTAL
$4.6m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $81.1m

5 recs  |  Comment 221 comments

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My hope

is that all those type of players are currently within the organization. My guesses would be Motte, Kinney, Rasmus, Freese, and Mather. Maybe Barton, but I have a hard time seeing him get a chance. If we have to have a reclamation vet on the bench I hope it is a RH bat that either plays corner OF or corner IF.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Oct 28, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

alfreda amezega

I know this isn’t going to be a tremendously popular idea, but picture a scenario in which miles is not your reserve middle infielder, where a legitimate defensive replacement can come off the bench for either of the middle infield spots, or the outfield and be really good as a pinch runner.

the pitch is, when he has played shortstop, he’s been one of the best defensive shortstops around, but the sample size is relatively small.

i’m not advocating using him full time, i would never want to see him used as against left handed pitching but he does bring several qualities that would help.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Oct 28, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not a bad idea at all

TLR would love him immediately since he can play 4 or 5 positions….

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Oct 29, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

plus he can do this

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Oct 29, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm..

Now that’s just a little silly…

by pattimagee on Oct 29, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you kidding me?

Holy cow, what a play.

by stlfan on Oct 29, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You might be selling yourself short

It’s probably more popular than you think. Now Miles had a good season, much better than I thought he would. I still think there may be better options out there. Others probably agree, but most of us think it’s not going to happen. We just kinda assume Miles will be back.

Kinda like when you just expect your crazy uncle is gonna show up for Thanksgiving dinner. Maybe you don’t like it, but you know it is going to happen. Just plan for it and hide the booze.

by Merry CRasmus on Oct 29, 2008 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, but a crazy uncle with an unpredictable upside,

like one who tells great dirty jokes.

A relative anticipated with a mix of dread and perverse joy.

by tom s. on Oct 30, 2008 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is it bad that i want to be that crazy uncle to my nephews?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a nephew

and I’m pretty sure I’m that crazy uncle. well, sort of. I’ve been his uncle since age 8.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 31, 2008 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brad Penny

Not sure what kind of deal he’ll be looking to sign this offseason, but he might be a good guy to take a shot on for a year. He has the ability, if healthy, to go put up a season similar to Welly, I think. I legit 2/3 guy.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Oct 28, 2008 5:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea

of Penny. I think that a lot of teams will be on him though due to the injury and seemingly cheaper contract. It might drive the price up, but worth a shot. Plus, wasn’t the signing of Lohse to help stabilize the rotation and allow us to make a signing like this one?

by JBagKY on Oct 29, 2008 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What will his contract be like?

Right now he has a 3 yr., $25.5 mil contract and an $8.75 mil 2009 option w/ a $2 mil buyout. I doubt the club picks up the option though. He had a terrible year and on the night the team clinched the division he cleaned out his locker and went home. He has also spoken about how he doesn’t like the Dodgers management.

Maybe we could get him slightly cheaper, considering his horrible year last year, but I think he could definitely be a huge asset to the team.

by wizardofozzie on Oct 29, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eric Patterson.

The A’s have been hoarding 2nd baseman. I don’t think Patterson will be a great player; I do think he will be a very good one though. They need a close to ready 3B man; they need a power hitter, they always gamble on good young arms……there could be a trade there.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Oct 28, 2008 6:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hitoki Iwase,

as long as he is willing to throw only middle-relief instead of closing and doesn’t break the bank.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Oct 28, 2008 6:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dave Cameron at fangraphs likes

jeremy affeldt as a relief ace/potential closer archetype.

Though that didn’t work out so well for the royals, he’s just a type B free agent, he’s a LHP, and he throws 94+. Struck out more than a batter an inning in ‘08 with a 55 percent GB rate, so even Duncan could get along with him… sounds like a steal if he’d sign for what Dave proposes.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 28, 2008 6:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I wouldn’t want to pay much over 3-4 milion a year for him but he could be just the lefty we need out of the pen. The only risk is that he doesn’t really have much of a history of sucess other than recently, but I see no reason why he shouldn’t continue to be good.

Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?

by thegodfather on Oct 28, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Affeldt was terrific

for the Rockies in 2007. He’d be a good addition since he’s more than a LOOGY.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Oct 29, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right...

I’m just saying that before 2007 and 2008, he wasn’t so terrific. I’d go for signing him though.

Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?

by thegodfather on Oct 29, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Affeldt

Would be a great signing for the cards. Living in Louisville, I get a lot of the Reds games.

He would be just what the doctor ordered.

by RDF922 on Oct 28, 2008 8:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's a thought

New here,

I’ve been thinking about this:

First off, go for Affeldt, if we can’t get him, go after Mike Gonzalez… down year but he is very good. Braves need prospects for Peavy

Second, there has been talk that JJ Hardy or Fielder may be traded to get CC. What do you think about acquiring Hardy?

by EFan on Oct 28, 2008 11:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd love to get Hardy

But I don’t think the Brewers are going to want to fill in a glaring weakness for a division rival just to sign Sabathia when they have some good young pitching talent anyway. I doubt they’re going to trade either of those guys — if they do, it will be to a non-division rival for sure.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 29, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, he isn't

His OPS+ has gone up every full season in the big leagues.

His OBP has gone up every year he’s been in the big leagues.

Coming off of a year in which he hit .283/.343/.478 with 24 homers.

He’s a +1 defensive SS (projected 2009) by CHONE. Izturis is a +6 in comparison.

That’s awfully good production from a SS not named Rollins or Ramirez.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 29, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or reyes

yeah, he’s pretty dang good! I had no idea… maybe I was looking at his midseason stats and didn’t know he improved that much. or something.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

From John Perrotto today in Baseball Prospectus "Rumors and Rumblings"

 Blue Jays right-hander A.J. Burnett is certain to exercise the opt-out clause in his contract, and if he does not re-sign with Toronto, the Cardinals are said to be number one on his list; he nearly signed with them when he was a free agent after the 2005 season. Other potential destinations include the Yankees, Orioles, Nationals, and Rangers. …

by moser34 on Oct 29, 2008 2:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

we were number 1 on his list last time too

and he decided to take the money, so I’m not sure that I put a lot of stock in that rumor even if it is true.

I have the feeling that the Yanks and Rangers are going to throw a crapload of money at him, and I’d rather not pay him more than $10-$12M per year because he’s a huge injury risk.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 29, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

However,

If he were willing to do something like 4Y/$40M with a $15M option/$3-5M buyout, I’d listen…

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 29, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so would I

but the Yanks or Rangers will offer him something like 4Y/$60M with a $18M option and a $5M buyout and he’d probably take it.

Like I said above — we were his first choice last time and he took the money, don’t see how anything has changed…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 29, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, three frustrating and obnoxious years in Toronto have happened

There’s no reason to believe anything, and no reason to get excited, but it’s something to keep an eye on. One could also think that the Yanks or Rangers might be distracted chasing Sheets or Sabathia, and let Burnett slip under the radar.

In the end, we don’t know anything, and all we do is speculate. So we can pay attention and keep a clear mind.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 29, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true...

… but AJ’s current contract pays him more than $10mn AAV, and he’s still relatively young. he’s not going to opt out unless he’s positive he’ll get significantly more or he expects to suffer a major injury in the next two years. hell, Toronto is supposedly prepared to offer him something like 3/36 to keep him.

of course, if he miscalculates and is out there for Lohse ’08 money, then of course you gobble him up. i just have a really hard time imagining a scenario in which that happens.

by kindred on Oct 29, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not this offseason

Weird shit happened last offseason because there were no blue-chip starters out there to drive up prices. Lohse was looking for money that compared to his former teammate Carlos Silva, gave up similar money to that to get out of Philly (indicating that he would not take less), so he ended up in Mo’s lap looking for a job. That won’t happen with a pitcher as talented as Burnett.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 29, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish I could find the link

but I read somewhere that AJ was looking for a 5yr deal. He is trying to get the Jays to add 3 yrs to the remaining 2 yrs of his current deal.

If he does opt out, I’m assuming he is looking for a 5yr contract. It will be interesting to see if any team is willing to do a deal that long.

by Knighttime on Oct 30, 2008 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

Ludwick was the diamond in the rough for ’08

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 29, 2008 8:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Two players I'd like to keep an eye on

Sean Rodriguez of LAA. He’s a 2b who has quite a bit of time playing SS. Carrying a great glove and a very solid bat.

We could have something that the Angels may want. They lack depth in 3b which obviously we could fill on various ways, they may need some pitching from the pen, obviously could use someone with closer material. Another need they could very well have is OF with Anderson now gone and Vlad with surgery, Vlad is also on his last year.

They have massive depth in the middle infield which should help us open their coffers.

Chin Lung Hu of LAD.
I haven’t checked too deep off hand on what the Dodgers do need, and part of it depends on what they do with Furcal, Manny et all. But Hu is an excellent glove who has shown a great bat while in the minors. It hasn’t translated when he was with the team however, at all actually. He seems (from an outside point of view) to fall out of favor with the org as a whole.

They have great depth at SS position and Hu will end up shortly being an opportunity cost. A change of scenery should do him justice. Compared to Iz his bat should be no worse at the worst of times and has massive upside in comparison. His glove would be comparable and he has a great arm.

I’m not sure what it would take to get him, but I can’t see his value reining out of control.

Both guys are under 2 years service time and would be cheap for quite a while. If backed by someone like Miles or Ryan they’ll keep our MI quite cheap this year while they develop further, in the future they may grow back higher into their upside and be a solid value.

But more importantly it sets us up for the next few years where we have players at 3b, SS, 2b and CF who are young, cost controlled, all with great upside. And neither should dilute our farm system.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Oct 29, 2008 8:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A few notes on both these guys

The Angels are pretty high on Rodriguez as a 2B — rumor has it they might be trying to move Howie Kendrick to make a spot for him in the next year or so…..coincidentally, about the time that Kendrick hits arbitration. They do need quite a bit of help at 3B, but Figgins is a beloved player in the organization and there’s nowhere else to put him on the field. They also have Brandon Wood to come up and play 3B, and he has about as much pop as any 3B that the Cardinals could trade (since we can’t trade Wallace). Considering how loaded the Angels are at every position in the majors and high minors, I’m just not sure how the Cardinals could swing a deal for Rodriguez.

If the Dodgers don’t re-sign Furcal, and it looks like he wants to stay, then Hu is their starting SS next year. If they bring Furcal back, I think Hu probably gets a very long look as the starting 2B in spring training — in fact, I think it will be his job to win. Again, I just don’t see any weakness in the Dodger ballclub or high farm system that we could move for such a high profile player like Hu. They do need a 3B prospect since they traded away Andy LaRoche to get Manny and Casey Blake certainly isn’t getting any younger, but I don’t think it’s something they’re worrying about this offseason, and I certainly doubt they’d give up a middle infielder that’s one year removed from being the Future’s Game MVP for any 3B prospect the Cards can currently deal.

I think both of these guys are going to be good players, but I just don’t think that we have the right pieces to acquire either of them.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 29, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

added comment on Figgins

Figgins moving to LF, Garrent Anderson gone. G Matthews RF, Torri Hunter CF.

by Knighttime on Oct 30, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

jayson nix

the white sox jumped on their chance and picked up a low risk 2b. wish the cards would have picked him up.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/10/white-sox-sign.html

....my quick smells like french toast...

by mstreeter06 on Oct 29, 2008 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Indeed

I wouldn’t have had any qualms with us signing Nix. Also, from what I’ve heard, players loved him.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Oct 30, 2008 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

after reading mo's chat on the PD site, what do you think the likelihood of this scenario is?

For reference, when asked who was going to be the surprise player to land on the 2009 roster, Mo answered that Tyler Green could surprise everyone with a good ST.

I see the club doing something along these lines — getting ONE marquee name middle infielder and populating the other side of the middle infield with a stopgap starter(Miles/Izturis/Lopez/Kennedy) and hoping that Barden or Green comes up and wins a starting role.

The obvious flaw is that if both Barden and Green are hitting .164 in ST, we will be hard pressed to find a reasonable MIF in April and stuck with at least one of the mediocre MIF we overexposed this year.

The upshot is that this might allow the club to really pull a blockbuster for the marquee name MIF (or elsewhere, like relief), in terms of prospects and/or dollars.

How ML-ready do you think Barden and Green are? NB — Green is pulling time at second in the Arizona League. If his defense is up to par, that would probably put him ahead of Hoffpauir as a potential 2B, yes?

by tom s. on Oct 30, 2008 1:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

there's always brendan ryan as a fallback

I still think he wouldn’t be worse than Izturis was last year, if he wasn’t treated like a pariah, and he could be much better than izturis…

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 30, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

can Brendan Ryan play 2B?

I wouldn’t mind him being our starting SS if we get a plus hitting second base guy

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 30, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree Sleepy

It would make me Grumpy and not Happy if we don’t look at using Ryan in the UTIL role at least this year. He can play SS, 2B, and 3B serviceably, has speed, makes good contact, and I haven’t seen him much at all. I think his weapons should translate well with somewhat regular playing, and he’s a cheap alternative to Miles, without the 65 mph cut fastball :-)

He would give us good depth, and a signing of Lopez would give us two guys who could start one of MI positions and the other be the UTIL. Depth would be kept at Memphis (Barden/Hoffpauir) and that would only commit the 3-5Mil that Lopez would cost. Therefore, Miles salary can go to upgrading LHRP/LOOGY/Closer and we still have cash to be competitive with a SS/2B FA. If we can ditch Kennedy then great; but I’m obviously not expecting that to happen. Therefore, his involvement may spur Mo to get Lopez only, call that the MI help from outside, and spend in the bullpen/rotation only.

I know a hundred different scenarios could manifest, but I feel that Ryan gives our team, and roster more flexibility than Miles

by timmycardinals on Oct 30, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair

Ryan was frickin’ terrible this year. He didn’t exactly play well enough to merit a spot on the team.

.244/.307/.289 over about 200 ABs. That is downright putrid.

by mojowo11 on Oct 30, 2008 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair too

Ryan was one good game away from having the same numbers as Izturis and is very similar defensively at SS. For a delta of $2.45M, I’ll take Ryan and a LOOGY over Izturis. Too bad they both sucked against LHPs. After Ryan’s .863 OPS vs LHPs in 2007 I was hopeful he and Izturis could be a usefull platoon.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Oct 30, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and further being fair

he did a much better job as a starter. Some players are just awful in a utility role and need to see action every day.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Oct 31, 2008 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He isn't near the defensive player

that Izturis is. Have you seen the rankings? Izturis is No. 2.

The trouble with Ryan is you can’t carry four middle infielders, or shouldn’t. If we carry one bench player, it’s going to be Lopez or Miles. Ryan is okay if we have a second baseman who can slug. But if we’re counting our backup as our slugger, we’re in real trouble….again.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what rankings?

Ryan didn’t have enough playing time to be in any defensive list. Small sample sizes for defensive metrics are pretty much useless regardless of the system used.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was simply saying that Ryan probably isn’t the 2nd best defensive player in the majors at SS, regardless of sample size. Izturis was that good last year defensively.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 31, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, if he is looking at RZR

izturis was #2, and if Ryan had enough playing time to qualify his RZR would have been #3 on the list.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute...

…didn’t we just mention small sample sizes?

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes.

ryan is imo better defensively than even his excellent RZR suggests. But his RZR suggests he is close enough to izturis in talent that he could replace him easily, defensively, and at the league minimum.

Or are you saying that it is OK to quote defensive metrics when they agree with you, but not when they don’t? Because it isn’t fair to say that Ryan “isn’t near the defensive player that izturis is” and then quote a metric that only applies to one of the two players.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I just don't think Ryan

is as good as Izturis, and I don’t think a miniscule sample size showing him to be close is evidence that he is.

Let’s put it this way: Izturis’s salary is low enough that re-signing him as an all-glove guy isn’t going to make or break the payroll. We could put Ryan in there instead and save a little, but at the margin I think it’s better to use Izturis since he’s got more experience and TLR likes him.

Personally, I would rather have Adam Everett if we’re going all-glove, but that’s just me…

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish

we were in the situation that we could just spend an unnecessary $2.5-$3.0M on a player and it wouldn’t make any difference. It will absolutely make a difference in either roster construction or trade deadline flexibility. $3M is enough to acquire a $9M per year rental at the deadline.

Whether you think the defensive numbers have predictive value for coming seasons is one thing, but it is clearly just wrong to say that they are meaningless. Brendan Ryan was just as good a shortstop in 2008 as iz2. Who knows what Ryan will do with the glove next year?

What we do know is that iz2 WILL be one of the worst offensive players in all of baseball. So, does this mean I think Brendan Ryan is some kind of cure for this problem? ABSOLUTELY NOT. We need a new shortstop, it is a glaring shortcoming of the team and if we are not going to get one then it is an absolute waste of money to keep Iz2.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Oct 31, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he was asked

but declined. Anyone know?

I agree that we need a new shortstop. Ryan is not a starter or a backup, really, because he has zero pop in his bat. Izturis is an extremely reliable defender and a horrendous offensive producer. If you get Uggla or someone like that, he can hide in the lineup. But if it’s Lopez at second, he HAS TO GO!

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

defense is easily underrated

SS and 2B are positions in which defense has phenomenal value. Ryan (like AK) is a great defender, one of the best available. He’d be more valuable if he had shown the ability to hit, but hitting is only half the game.

It’s way too soon to write the guy off. if he can just get on base, he has great value to our team in the future.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 1, 2008 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can't project

defensive metrics out based on a small sample size — you’re doing Izturis an incredible disservice by replicating Ryan’s actual performance over and over to get a “projection”.

I’m not saying Ryan’s a bad defensive player, but I don’t buy that he’s as good as Izturis is.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 31, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, ryan looks like the better defender to me

and the numbers don’t dispel this, within the margin of error of a 255 inning “season”. You are right about the defensive stats not necessarily being projectible, but that works both ways- ryan could be much better or much worse than the stats say.

it’s “doing an incredible disservice” to Ryan to say that his defensive stats don’t count at all, especially if you use the same defensive stats to support izturis.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but you can't really support an argument

that says he wasn’t essentially just as good in 2008.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Oct 31, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you.

I was referring to the Zone Ratings, but I’m pretty sure there are others that have Izturis up there as well.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well given how awful he was last year

he has more upside in hitting than just about everyone but Todd Wellemeyer.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you know what I mean

especially if you don’t just go by 2008. I think he was probably just confused as to his role with the team, and it was growing pains if nothing else. not that I expect him to turn into Reyes by any means.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 31, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edgar's been cut free by DET

any interest? I’d be willing to pay AK + Iz2 money for him. Admittedly I’m biased. I think he should retire as a Redbird.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Oct 30, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

edgar is a type A

so if we sign him, it won’t be until after the december cutoff.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 30, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that applies

Since they bought out his contract. Wouldn’t they have to then offer him arbitration, which I don’t think they can do anyway, for us to have to give up a draft pick?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 30, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They can still offer arbitration but I don't think they will

They are cutting payroll and Renteria could get $8 to $9 million in Arbitration and I don’t think Detroit can take that risk. The nice thing though if we signed him to a one year contract and he had a half decent year we could offer him arbitration. He probably would still be a Type A Free Agent also.

He is the guy I want the Cardinals to target in the off season. He is a perfect buy low candidate.

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 30, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really wouldn't make sense to offer arbitration...

unless you’re 100% sure he won’t accept. I think in arbitration he can receive no more than a 20% pay cut meaning at least $7.2 million. I guess they could potentially save themselves $800K in this arrangement ($3Mil buyout + $7.2 mil salary vs. $11 mil option)…but then they have a VERY disgruntled player.

by cardzfanbub on Oct 31, 2008 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, it applies.

If they offer arbitration, then he costs a draft pick no matter when he is signed. If they don’t offer arbitration, he costs a draft pick if he is signed before dec 15th.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 30, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't get the Edgar love

well, maybe i do. kind of. but remember, he chose to leave us over what, $1 measly million damn dollars? he’s grown old (as sadly we all do) and his rage & hitting ability have taken a downward turn the last season. is he our savior at SS? no. can he be a good second baseman? maybe. but not at what IZ2 & AK earned combined for a season.

nostalgia is a dangerous drug. don’t let it blind you my friends.

and i blame him & Walt for the Marky Mark fiasco. if Edgar wasn’t so greedy in the first place, Walt never would have dumped Kiko, Barton & Danny for a broken former Cy Young candidate. just for a second think back on how different the Cardinal’s history would be if that trade never happened? i wonder how different the Cards would have looked with Danny in the rotation & Edgar at short?

talk about nostalgia blinding you,,,,

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nostalgia blinding us?

So you’re going to hold a grudge against a guy because he decided to go play for the World Champions, who were also going to pay him more money? It’s business — holding personal grudges over stuff like that will put you behind those that don’t.

I don’t see how the Renteria thing had anything at all to do with the Mulder trade. Walt was going to be looking for a starter regardless of whether he was able to get Edgar or not.

Also, had we signed Edgar we wouldn’t have signed Eckstein, who ended up being the MVP of the World Series in 2006. You can make that cruddy analogy of yours work both ways.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 31, 2008 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

easy there big fella,,,to quote Walt

“If Edgar had never left, we’d never would have even talked to Oakland about Mulder. We simply could not have afforded his salary.”

if the PD’s site had records that go back that far, i’d send you the direct link.

i’m not holding any grudges. Edgar’s gotten old. it happens. he’s not the player he was when he was a Cardinal. that’s my point. people seam to think he’s the same player, and he’s not. i think nostalgia is blinding them.

talk about cruddy analogy. if you watched the 06 WS you’d know ECK being awarded the MVP was a joke. considering Edgar was still an all around better player at the time, the Cards would have won that series anyway. do you really think they would have lost with Danny in the rotation & Edgar at SS? perhaps you should focus on the facts more than personally attacking posters you don’t like.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...just...wow

So, because Walt says he wouldn’t have made the Mulder deal if they’d signed Renteria, that means it’s Edgar’s fault that Walt didn’t pony up enough cash to sign him and then went and made a trade that ended up being totally one sided? That’s completely false logic — you should be blaming Jocketty, not Renteria. Talk about attacking a guy for something he had nothing to do with. If the Cards ponied up the 4Y$40M he wanted he probably would have stayed in St. Louis. I don’t think he was worth $10 million a year, and I don’t think he has been over that contract.

This was your analogy, not mine. I did watch the 2006 World Series, I’ve watched it 4 times since then since I own the DVD’s. Eckstein made as good a case as any to win that award since he hit over .400 for the series and made a lot of positive things happen every time he came to the plate.

people seam to think he’s the same player, and he’s not. i think nostalgia is blinding them

Who’s saying he’s the same player? I don’t think anyone is saying that, I just think that he could be had for about $5-$6 million on a 1-2 year deal, which is cheap if he hits around his average over the last couple of years. If it’s not bad blood tainting you version of him, then why preface your whole post with this comment:

but remember, he chose to leave us over what, $1 measly million damn dollars?

.

that isn’t even true?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 31, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm only gonna say this one more time, relax

i’m not attacking any one. i have no bad blood towards any one, Edgar, Walt or Mulder. hell i was on board with letting Edgar go & getting Mark when it all went down. every player has the right to get the biggest pay check they can. i dont have any bad feelings towards Edgar because of that. but a lot of fans here & elsewhere keep saying he needs to come home. gocards62 even thinks he should retire a Cardinal. that’s all find & good, but not if they are letting nostalgia cloud their judgment about what Edgar can offer the Cards now. that was my main point till you went off on your rant trashing me for holding grudges & making up cruddy analogy’s. who’s to say the STL is even home for him? he actually won a ring playing in south beach. maybe that’s home for him?

i only brought up he left over the $1 Million dollar figure because that’s what was widely reported & a lot of fans back then were really unhappy about it. and yes, technically it is true. but if you take out the many millions of deferred money, with interest the entire deal with bean town was probably worth more. in the fact that Edgar got all of his money right away instead of waiting 20+ years for it. people seam to forget this is a biz, a big one at that. Edgar said at the time he felt disrespected by the Cards because they didn’t pony up as much or more money than bean town could. a lot of fans got angry about that. yet a lot of those same fans seam to forget that & now wax poetically about how great it would be to have Edgar back home. that’s what i don’t get. and just because i don’t understand that & try to point out he’s not what they remember him to be doesn’t make me a bad fan who holds ridiculous grudges.

i’m not as number smart as you are fourstick. you know a hell of a lot about stats, team numbers, etc, and can throw them out day after day to prove your point. i wish i was more like that, but too many numbers start making me dizzy. i am more of a seat of your pants, take what you see on the diamond & draw your conclusions thinker & fan. but i do take the numbers seriously. you have to. i also watch a lot of teams & a lot of players. i’ve seen Edgar take a turn for the worse in his playing ability the last couple of seasons & the numbers dont lie. he isn’t what he once was. from watching his performance, especially last seasons, i don’t think he can help the Cards win. i think he’d be a huge disappointment along the same lines as AK as been. there are better players out there than MO can bring him to play SS or 2nd. that’s all i am trying to say.

it’d be a great story if Edgar came back & tore it up once again. but i just don’t think that is a gamble the Cards should be wiling to take.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I have been pushing hard for Renteria on VEB because I view him as an undervalued asset. Not because he is a former Cardinal. He is not as bad with the glove that a lot of people accuse him of. He projects to be slightly below average.

I would rank them from Best to Worst – Iz2, Ryan, Renteria, Miles, Lopez

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe he is pretty out of shape

He looks flabby in his pictures, and I think people in Detroit have commented on this also. Is his head still in it? He seemed pretty messed up, frankly, when he went to Boston because he wasn’t loved enough by St. Louis. Over a miserable $4 million over four years or something. I’m not sure I want him around if he’s a headcase—and I know Tony won’t want him.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree with a lof of what you have to say Red

but to me he simply looks older & slower. the entire team this past season in Detroit was disinterested from day one. most of them never head their head in the games. which is so odd considering they were the fave coming out of spring to win the AL. and their 10 smokes breaks a game manager. so i don’t believe he is a headcase.

and Flim, that’s your opinion & God Bless you for it. but i have to believe if you had seen him play the last couple seasons, you wouldn’t think that. the only option i see Edgar as is a 2nd baseman. but, would he be open for that? who knows unless you ask him, right?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Metric-wise

he was one of the worst SSes in all of baseball. Far worse than any of the Cardinals mentioned above. I haven’t seen him, but the numbers were pretty bad.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 1, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he was -9 by +/- in 1173 innings

compared to izturis at +19 in 1000 innings. Aaron miles was +5.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 1, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing to remember about renteria deal

when the red sox signed renteria they gave up a draft pick that we used on Colby Rasmus.2005

"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."

by Bahamaredbird on Nov 4, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not so much that I love him

but he has the ability to solve a problem the team has right now, and he might come cheap. That’s all.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was more than one million

We offered him a 4 yr/$32 mil to $36 mil vs 4 yr/$40 mil. Plus, A huge portion of the salary was going to be deffered money which makes a difference. When you are getting paid $20 million over a 10 year period it loses a lot of its value.

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you remember correctly, the Cards upped their offer to 4 yr/$39

before he went to bean town. yes a large part of it was deferred. but that doesn’t seam to bother almost every other star the Cards do that with. so why should it bother Edgar?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would Detroit cut ties with him

and then offer arbitration? (a) He might accept and (b) They don’t want him. It’s not going to happen.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 31, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is not likely that

he would accept. That’s the problem. They both want to part ways but Detroit wants something out of it.

by eglasier on Oct 31, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Renteria wants to leave

He has openly said he wants to be a Tiger in 09 and how he thinks they will make it to the World Series.

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nationals have non-tendered

chad cordero. of course he’s coming off of shoulder surgery for a torn labrum, i’ll bet somebody signs him to a big league contract, which could turn out either way

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Oct 30, 2008 5:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yikes, torn labrum

No thanks. Pitcher’s worst enemy.

by mojowo11 on Oct 30, 2008 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i would not mind signing cordero

to a low money, low risk deal…torn labrum’s are awful for pitchers, but it really depends on how big the tear was

minor league contract worth around 1M+ incentives would be ok with me

by VolsnCards5 on Oct 31, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh wow

i just saw that he didn’t have surgery until july…i was thinking he had it in ST…he’s got another 12 months before he’ll be good to go, if he ever gets there

so nevermind

by VolsnCards5 on Oct 31, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bad bad bad bad

Shoulder injury was a nightmare. he’d have to be super cheap.

by spencegrif on Oct 31, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

white sox in search of catchers?
But declining the $2.25 million club option on Toby Hall leaves the White Sox temporarily in search of a backup catcher. A.J. Pierzynski and Minor Leaguer Cole Armstrong stand as the only two backstops on the White Sox 40-man roster.

“Shortstop Orlando Cabrera, third baseman Joe Crede, infielder Juan Uribe and relief pitcher Horacio Ramirez all figure to join Griffey and Hall in free agency from the White Sox. Closer Bobby Jenks and outfielder Dewayne Wise both are arbitration eligible.”

They also signed Jayson Nix. I’m undecided about dealing Anderson, but might be of interest.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 30, 2008 5:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I doubt it

I don’t think teams wanting Anderson would be interested in using him as a backup this year, I think they’d be looking at him as a potential mainstay at the position in a few years.

That’s not to say the White Sox wouldn’t want him for the post-Pierzynski era, whenever that is (too lazy to check Cot’s).

by mojowo11 on Oct 30, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can I just say

a little off the recent topic, but now that Burnett seems to be on the open market, barring monday’s decision, our signing of Lohse seems to look pretty dumb….A good way to judge whether a signing was a good idea is to see what kind of trade value he would bring now that he is signed long term. My prediction – NONE. That $40 mil would have gone nicely into getting a REAL impact pitcher named A.J. Burnett, not the replacement level rubber arm we got.

by Yadi on Oct 31, 2008 12:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i would much rather have durability

right now than talent. when burnett is healthy he is great but those 200+ innings he put on his arm this year are forecasting injury this year. if you sign him to a five year deal your looking at only getting 2-3 good years out of that.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Oct 31, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

didn’t we already go with durability when we signed Lohse? why not try and get a little more talent now? (especially if we somehow end up signing Looper and Pineiro turns into some sort of backup or long relief guy)

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 31, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right

his comment seemed to say that burnett would have been a better sign than lohse and in my opinion the opposite is true because of lohse’s durability.

i’m going nowhere near burnett. looking at his history he is a very risky investment.

even with lohse we still only have two durable pitchers, lohse and hopefully wainer. if wellemeyer gets through another year without many problems like looper did this year than i will consider him durable.

if we do sign looper than yeah we can take a chance on talent but i think we are already doing that with carp. going into the season with 4 reliable starters who can get us quality starts and one wild card is fine in my opinion. especially is we upgrade the offense.

i’m all in favor of trying to upgrade the rotation in a trade if the right offer comes along but i don’t think we need to sign anybody beyond looper.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Oct 31, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're right

probably can’t afford another good pitcher anyway, unless another Lohse falls in our lap during spring training. hopefully they’ll do what they need to do, and acquire either a plus hitting shortstop or 2B

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 31, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

point taken

so how many spots do we leave open for a rookie? I’d love to see one of our young guns step up. but I wouldn’t put the odds on more than one. Wainer, Lohse, Welley, Pineiro, rook?

by Yadi on Nov 3, 2008 1:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

pinero

a lot relies on carp obviously. if they think he can come back and at least pitch decent then pinero becomes our 5th starter until one of the rooks is ready and then he will move into the swingman role. if it looks like carp isn’t going to pitch then we will obviously need another starter but i really don’t believe he will need to be a top of the line guy.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Nov 3, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, what?

We have Carpenter, Piniero, Lohse, and Wainwright signed to many millions for next year. The only way we hire BOTH Looper and Burnett in the off-season is if Adam Wainwright’s right arm physically falls off his body.

I think the likelihood that DeWitt wants to pay either of them right now is low. Bill DeWitt can find better uses for $18M this year (a low-ball for two FA pitchers, and ignoring the multi-year aspect of the contracts) than getting a fifth AND a sixth starter.

by tom s. on Nov 1, 2008 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

burnett will sign with a team close to his hometown in maryland

"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."

by Bahamaredbird on Nov 3, 2008 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett

is from Little Rock. That’s in Arkansas.

by eglasier on Nov 3, 2008 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah isn't that where his wife is from?

he’s already proven he has no loyalty to the Cardinals. i don’t know why that’s so hard for some to understand.

it’s all about the Benjamin’s baby

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 3, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Alan Embree

I haven’t heard this guys name thrown out there yet. I saw that he is a FA and I don’t see why we don’t go for him. Especially if we are trying to bridge the gap at closer this guy has backed up Street pretty successfully the past two years so he could be put in that role and he is a lefty. I know he is older, and he made 3.1mil last year, but unless i am misunderstanding things he might be worth kicking the tires on. What do you guys think?

by Viva Vina on Oct 31, 2008 1:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He'd be a good LOOGY to target

I’d look at a 1 year deal though, since he is getting up there in terms of age.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 31, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The marlins

are pretty much unpredictable, but it’s hard not to notice they have some real pitching depth. this is what they have at the big league level.

Ricky Nolasco
scott olsen
Josh Johnson
Chris Volstad
Adam Miller
Annibel Sanchez
Eulogio De La Cruz

and then quite a bit of pitching depth below that with guys like west, sinkbeil, hernandez, winters, thompson etc. If they were serious about competing, they certainly have the talent to do it. I have my doubts that’s what they’ll do.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Oct 31, 2008 3:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

???

who’s going to play first for the fish next year now that jacobs is gone?

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Nov 1, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess

Amezega goes to either 3B or SS…Cantu moves to 1st.

by stlfan on Nov 1, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

cantu

will take over first, he was pretty bad at third this year. the incumbant for third is probably macpherson.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Nov 1, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They also have a minor leaguer they're high on named

Gaby Sanchez who may go to first base.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Nov 1, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Willie Bloomquist

Is he a possibility for a supersub role. Plays all over the field with a slash line of .279/.377/.285 this year. That slugging % is disgusting, but he did steal14 bases this year so he could provide a bit of speed that is definitely lacking on this team. Ideas?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Oct 31, 2008 3:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

.377 is not a bad OBP...

don’t really see where he fits in though.

by mattybobo on Oct 31, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

josh kinney--

could be the first to 15 saves, in 09.
jamie d’antona 3b/c/ari—needs his shot. could have 15 hr in 300 ab as backup infielder.
robert andino ss/2b/3b/fla—could be next years mike aviles/kc, at 3b for fla.
tyler johnson—could be 7-2 w/l, as the vulcher in tie games.
aaron hill as al comeback player for 09.
anthoney reyes—good luck.

by ball in play on Oct 31, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

kind of an ignorant question, i know...

but isn’t mcpherson penciled in at 3B in fla for 09?

TJ and Kinney could be tremendous difference-makers in ’09, for sure.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry if this has already been posted

si.com has a list of the top 50 free agents and where they best fit….interesting that they have the cardinals as the best fit for renteria, garland, renteria, and, drumroll please, kerry wood

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ben_reiter/10/30/reiter.top.freeagents/index.html?eref=T1

by VolsnCards5 on Oct 31, 2008 8:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i think when u say

Renteria twice, you mean Renteria and Grudz, because SI seems to think that he would do well as a reserve for us. Just what we need! another reserve MI!

by dunc4life on Oct 31, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at Grudz

And I got to say I am impressed. His numbers have been pretty much the same since 03 with no real drop off and he is still good with the glove.

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

see the sky kalkman discussion in today's main thread

grudz is one of the worst possible solutions.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 31, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually think garland would be a decent move

A lot don’t, why i don’t know. He shouldn’t cost as much as others. I’d like to see Joe Beimel, Garland, Furcal. Beimel gets righties out as well, SI shows he had a 2.02 era. I’m sure kahil greene will be explored, I’m 50/50 on him, if we don’t give up meaningfull prospects on our end then eating the salary won’t be as bad.

by from First to Third on Oct 31, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He would fit right into Duncan's philosophy..

Good groundball pitcher.. Duncan might make him into a really good starter. Or maybe not

by wizardofozzie on Nov 1, 2008 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

geez

i’m really starting to dislike everyone penciling us in for over the hill veterens.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Oct 31, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no doubt

we need to get younger & better. not older & more busted.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed,

it’s like they had a bunch of crappy veterans left over after the Dodgers and Yankees signed everyone else. They filled in those spots with the cardinals.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Nov 1, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was interesting that they suggested Kerry Wood to the Cards

I’m actually not opposed to that and wouldn’t be surprised to see it happen. Perez can take over if he gets hurt or is ineffective. Orlando Cabrera would be nice at SS methinks…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 3, 2008 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

long live

pornstache larue! So it now appears that Mo WILL make a trade this offseason, seeing as how this now makes Anderson expendable. Any thoughts on what we could get for a sweet-swingin’ lefty catcher?

by dunc4life on Oct 31, 2008 8:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

why is everyone so eager to trade Anderson?

catchers who HIT are extremely rare. Plus all catchers are vunerable to injury. I don’t think you can have too many catchers/prospects.

IF Mo’s serious about moving Anderson, I hope he’s asking for ’09 ML talent.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Oct 31, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not eager to move Anderson.

22 year old catcher at AAA? He can hit, his catching is improving, and there is still a lot of growth left. I would hope he’s kept for their own possible use. I know Molina is on a long term contract, and I also know he’s been out parts of the last two seasons. Catching is hard on the body, and It could turn out that we NEED Anderson. I prefer they keep him unless they get an offer they can’t refuse.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Oct 31, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i concur

keep the kid, bring him up this season if Stache or Yadda go down for some experience. and then starting next year, he is Yadda’s main back up for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 31, 2008 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

we’re going on and on about how valuable he is and then, the oslution to the whole thing is to use him at the most useless position in all of baseball. If he has that much value, he’dd have even more value to us in terms of the trade products he’d bring us.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 1, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i see your point

so if he’s so valuable, who do you think he could, in realistic terms, bring the Cardinals in trade? could he bring them a good SS or 2nd baseman that could start in 09?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Nov 1, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And that's kind of my point

If Anderson could be the centerpiece of a trade for, say, Brian Roberts or Dan Uggla (though I’m not a fan of that guy’s defense, so maybe not), I think he’s brought more value to the team than he would as being a backup catcher for the duration of the time that Yadi’s on the team.

Then again, maybe it makes sense to trade Yadi, and not Anderson. I would imagine that Yadi has quite a bit of value to other teams, too.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 1, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that got me thinking

The Marlins have a young, talented pitching staff. Think that they wouldn’t love to have Yadi leading that staff? I know it won’t happen, but I bet that would be a great starting point to get Uggla. I don’t even want it to happen, but I am sure that would get them talking.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 1, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would move Yadi

in a heartbeat in the right deal. I know this is sacrilege, but he is probably the most overrated Cardinal.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 1, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and yet...

he also is one of the most underrated because of the rate at which he is improving. He has nearly doubled his OPS+ over the past 2 seasons from his 2006 low of 53.

by stlfan on Nov 2, 2008 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you suppose that rate of improvement

will continue? Even with his career-best season he is not in the top ten in the bigs at his position. Now I don’t have anything against Yadi, but if someone really, really wants him and we have a potential replacement who is nearly ready, then I would be all ears. I would certainly think his trade value far exceeds Anderson’s.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 2, 2008 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does it exceed Anderson's enough

that the difference we would see at catcher would make up for it?

by stlfan on Nov 2, 2008 9:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think there is any way to know

but I am not so sure the gap between Anderson and Yadi would be that big. Yadi’s slash line of .304/.349/.392 wasn’t particularly lucky with a BABIP of .310, but with his foot speed you wouldn’t think he would be able to consistently exceed a .300 BABIP. I certainly don’t expect him to be among the league leaders in infield hits again next year. I would imagine a line of .285/.330/.375 would be more likely in 2009.

According to today’s main thread, Yadi was 2 wins above replacement in his best year so far. According to Beyond the Boxscore, Yadi was the 15th best catcher in MLB in 2008 – just ahead of Rod Barajas and John Baker.

I have never seen Anderson play, so I don’t have a feel for how could he could be. To be clear, I am not lobbying to get rid of Yadi. Neither do I have a man crush on Anderson, but I think the trade value of a still young, but established everyday catcher who is signed to essentially a 3 year, $12.5M contract is probably much greater than a 21 year-old prospect. If it takes moving Yadi to make the team better then I think it should be considered.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 2, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again

the methodology used for ranking catchers as btbs was extremely sketchy. I wouldn’t use it for evaluating catchers fielding talent, or for making decisions about how good yadi was behind the plate.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 2, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What is your favorite method?

Always looking to find a better way.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 2, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my problem with it

is that it creates results which are WAY out of line with my perceptions, and the only information we are given about how the system was built is one cryptic sentence:

"For catchers, fielding is based on passed ball/wild pitch rates and SB/CS ratios. "

As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and here all I have is one number that could very well be pulled from arse that contradicts what I see and think. The fact that Jason Kendall is rated the best defensive catcher in baseball, almost twice as good as the nexy guy, is bizarre enough, but that yadi is 11th and only 2 runs above replacement defensively simply cannot be correct.

Anyway, I don’t know of a better system off the top of my head, but that doesn’t keep me from calling shenanigans on this system.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 3, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's also worth noting

That catching defense affects the game in all kinds of ways that are very difficult, if not impossible to calculate.

As a quick example (one of many I could give), Yadi’s ability to pick off runners at first base (and sometimes even at second) not only generates extra outs over the course of the season, it also keeps baserunners much closer to the bag on their secondary lead. That makes it tougher for runners, particularly those of average speed, to go first to third on a single, score from second on a single and from first on a double.

Sometimes that leads to runners not trying to advance and other times it lets Ankiel gun a runner down from the warning track. Over the course of a season, his arm saves many runs that simply don’t show up in defensive ratings based solely on “objective” criteria.

by fltfire on Nov 3, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's a good example

of one of the unquantifiable things Molina does

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 3, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Backup Catcher=not completely useless.

Cleveland kept their young catcher Kelly Shoppach for themselves, as a backup, and he ended up a regular when Martinez went down. He had a terrific season, actually ended up leading AL catchers in home runs. He is now a very valuable trade chip, flexibility to maybe put Martinez in a new role, or just stick around as a backup for another season. There’s a scarcity of good young catchers, and right now Texas and Cleveland have the best trade chips. Another reason, IMO, to keep Anderson around in 2009, and just let him smooth out the rough edges, get a better idea of what he’s worth to the Cardinals and everyone else.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Nov 2, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they want to keep him in the minors, I respect that

I don’t understand why one would want to call him up this year, though.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Nov 2, 2008 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

I do not believe Anderson should be a trade chip right now.

I believe that the catcher position is one that we should strive to keep a tremendous backup, like Anderson, at. LaRue will get the 2009 season as the backup, seeing as though he was signed this week, and Anderson should start 75-80% of the games in Memphis. 2010, though, should be a different story. Just imagine what Anderson could learn from Yadier Molina and Dave Duncan (if he’s still around) in September and beyond.

Yadi will be entering his age 27 season, whereas Anderson will be entering his age 23 season in 2010. Why not pick one pitcher that Anderson works really, really well with (probably someone who will be in Memphis next year and with the Cardinals thereafter as well…(cough Boggs *cough*)…and let him catch every game in which that pitcher comes to the mound in 2010, in addition to any time Yadier needs to take a rest?

by stlfan on Nov 2, 2008 9:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

he’s pretty young so they may just be giving him one more year in the minors, no?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 3, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anderson is only 22, and LaRue is signed for 1 more yr.

why would that make anderson expendable? He hasn’t even played a full season in AAA yet.

Matthew Leach wrote on mlb.com…

The move makes it clear that the Cardinals do not expect to begin the season with prospect Bryan Anderson on their Major League roster. Anderson, who will turn 22 in December, split 2008 between Double-A Springfield and Triple-A Memphis, putting up a combined line of .308/.377/.416 (average/on-base/slugging) between the two levels.

The organization clearly still views Anderson as a catcher, though. He will catch in the Puerto Rican Winter League this offseason, backing up Molina on a team that will be managed by St. Louis third-base coach Jose Oquendo.

by Knighttime on Oct 31, 2008 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is great to hear

I hope he learns some defensive skills behind Molina

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 31, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting.....

the first player EVER from South Africa has been signed by the Pirates. He’s an 18 year old switch hitting shortsop. It would be way too cool if he made it…

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Nov 1, 2008 5:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There are a staggering number of countries

that play baseball. It’s not just the U.S., Canada, Central America and Japan. It’s all over Europe and there have been, IIRC, like 17 players in the major leagues from Australia.

Check out this documentary about Irish baseball. Pretty cool.

All this leaves me thinking, shouldn’t we have a scout roving around some of these places looking for talent? There’s got to be some more out there.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 2, 2008 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damaso Marte's option was declined

by the Yankees. Made $2 million this season. Will surely bring in a little more. What do you all think?

by EFan on Nov 2, 2008 10:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he's a type A

and they will offer him arbitration. If we sign him, we’ll lose our first round draft pick.

He’d be a great addition to the bullpen, though.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 2, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just go ahead and sign a good FA pitcher

Don’t gamble on Carp’s health.
Don’t pinch pennies when we’re talking rotation.
Go ahead and either have a legit starting 5 or 6 if all works well.
You can always trade from your surplus (like we were going to be able to do this past season, right?)

My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!

by 82Special on Nov 3, 2008 9:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

strangely enough

Looper is probably the best person to sign.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 3, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Arbitration

is it a foregone conclusion that MO offer Looper arbitration? it seems stupid to me not to….

by timmycardinals on Nov 3, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

pinch pennies

there is a difference between pinching pennies and handicapping our team. we have 20 mil to spend right now. so signing another “good” pitcher will cost at least 10 mil a year so that forces us to sign below average players at LHP, 2B, and SS. imo we should address those three positions and then we’ll focus on the rotation. if it turns out that carp isn’t going to be healthy you have a much better shot at convincing dewitt to increase payroll than if you just have crappy players at three positions.

never bought the trade from surplus idea for our pitching staff. especially when the majority of our starting pitchers will all be over 30, signed to 3+ year deals, and making at least 8-9 mil a year. just not very valuable. valuable to us and hence the reason we signed them but not valuable enough for any team to give us something other than a fringe minor leaguer. their is a difference between depth and “tradeable” depth.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Nov 3, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

increase payroll

that’s what I mean by not pinching pennies. Rather than gambling too much on Carp and the health of the other potential starters, why not hedge our bets, spend a few more million up front, and then trade away the excess if it ever matures? Aren’t there always teams around the trade deadline who are looking to add a viable starter? We would still be out the prorated salary up to the date of the trade, but wouldn’t that be better than being the ones searching the scrap heap in June or July for another arm? That was my point.

My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!

by 82Special on Nov 3, 2008 11:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tim Dierkes of MLBTR

put up a link today….www.mlbtraderumors.com

He attempts to place each of his top 50 free agents with teams who will sign for them.

In his opinion, St. Louis picks up Orlando Hudson, E. Renteria (on a one-year deal) and Damaso Marte. (Lopez signs with Baltimore, Looper to SF).

How do we feel about this? What would the lineups look like? While playing around with the rosters, I don’t necessarily think the Defense would be that bad, with an above average fielder at 3B, 2B, and 1B, and a former gold glover at SS in Edgar. In fact, if Troy Glaus and Yadi both picked up the Golden Rawlings this year, that would put a gold glover at EVERY position in the infield. How could we be disappointed in that? Yes we’d be much older, and yes Edgar seems to have slowed, but he is still the same guy; how old was Izturis last year?.

I also think the batting orders Tony would play around with would be very interesting. What questions jump out to me is who bats leadoff and who bats 9—Skip and Colby would be the biggest difference makers assuming they are on the team. Where would Hudson bat? He’s traditionally a 2 hitter, with good pop, OBP and a decent average with low strikeouts. Who’d lead off? My best bet would be whoever is in the lineup between Schumaker and Rasmus, (or even Barton if he wins the fifth OF challenge). Would Renteria be the 9 hitter? It looks like he would be to me…

Schumaker/Rasmus – CF
Hudson – 2B
Pujols – 1B
Ludwick – RF
Glaus – 3B
Ankiel – LF
Molina – C
Pitcher
Renteria – SS

Does Renteria look better now that he’s a 9 hitter in our lineup? Would TLR bat Schumaker (or Barton) in the 9 hole and put Hudson or Edgar in the Leadoff? Lots of potential problems and lots of potential runs in that lineup. Looks like a fun challenge for TLR—something he’d enjoy, no doubt.

So our roster would look like

OF—Ludwick, Ankiel, Schumaker, Rasmus, Barton/Mather/Duncan
INF—Pujols, Hudson, Renteria, Glaus, Molina, LaRue, Ryan, Freese (I’m insterting these two since we’d have spent our FA money completely) Mayber Mather and Barton both make it as Mather becomes corner IF backup and Ryan can back up Glaus at third and Troy backup Albert at 1st? Where’s Duncan in this scenario

SP—Wainwright, Welley, Lohse, Piniero, Carpenter/Boggs
RP—McClellan, Perez, Marte, Franklin, ? Does Springer get re-signed cheaply? Motte in the bigs or closing in Memphis? Kinney/Tyler Johnson/Worrell??? Who rounds out the team?

so, through my stream of consciousness here it looks like MO and TLR have A LOT of questions to sort through. Looks like fun to me.

by timmycardinals on Nov 3, 2008 4:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

izturis was 28 I believe

and waaay better at fielding than renteria

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 3, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as an addendum

the thing I always liked about Renteria is that he seemed to be very clutch… I know clutch is not a well defined ability, but he did seem to have his fair share of game winners. still, I think we could do a lot better than getting renteria and hudson…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 3, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure where this goes...

But I live in Chicago (well, south sub.), and I was listening to the local drive home on ESPN Radio (Mac, Jurko, and Harry) tody when I hear Jim Hendry of the Cubs met with San Diego people informally involving Jake Peavy. It was reported that the Friars were interested in this group of four players; Sean Marshall, Felix Pie, Ronny Cedeno, and a Triple A prospect whose name escapes me. Now to me even if the Iowa prospect is the next best thing in baseball (and I haven’t heard that out of Cubbie-land) that seems a bit low. My point is this: 1) I am outraged at the thought of the Cubs getting maybe the biggest impact pitcher in the NL (Top 5 at least) for three players not worth the stale gum that comes with thier baseball cards and ONE prospect, and 2) Maybe Peavy isn’t going to cost as much as we originally thought if we decide to go after him. What do you guys think?

by Viva Vina on Nov 3, 2008 7:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

so you're saying we could get Peavy if we just throw any four prospects at 'em?

Four is the magic number?

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 3, 2008 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if it's Vitters

that’s a lot. Josh Vitters is the Cubs’ No. 1 prospect. I don’t think he’s as good as Rasmus, but it would be like Rasmus/Garcia/Schumaker/Hoffpauir or something from us.

It would pretty well wreck the Cubs’ farm system, which already stinks, but it would be a pretty incredible rotation for at least the one year when Harden and Peavy were together and actually healthy.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 3, 2008 8:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

peavy pitching in wrigley field

might be really fun to watch, from our perspective. I’d almost like to see this trade happen just so we’d get closure on the conversations that took place in the peavy trade thread; wrigley is almost a worst-case scenario for peavy in the “peavy stinks outside petco” framework.

Then again, we said the same thing about lilly, and he has worked out pretty well.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 3, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I think Peavy is a savvy enough pitcher

to make the necessary adjustments. He’s a firece competitor. He’ll be good wherever he lands. Even in Wrigley.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Nov 3, 2008 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

twas amazement, given how much the race for Peavy is cooling here

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 3, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

correction

they acquired a right handed first baseman.

by azruavatar on Nov 3, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that makes me happy

I like josh phelps. I’m really, really glad that he didn’t get much more playing time for us in 2008, of course, but he’s a good hitter who has gotten a bad deal in the past. Still think an AL team would be a better fit, but he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do and AL teams seem strangely hesitant to sign true DH types, even to league-minimum deals.

FWIW, Mo did not have to release phelps- he could have kept him at least until spring training. He should get a karma kudo for giving the guy the opportunity to move on to another organization.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 3, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the releases are starting to bug me too

If they’re not a fit for us, they’ve got to be trade bait for somebody.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 3, 2008 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

These are replacement level players

no one is going to trade for Josh Phelps. If you can get him on the free, great; otherwise, no go.

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2008 7:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the difference between mike jacobs and josh phelps

is miniscule. Basically, Mike Jacobs’ agent did a better job of picking a team for him to play on.

Anyway, if Phelps is a “replacement level” player then the bar is set very high; every DH in the AL should have at least an .830 OPS.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

An .830 OPS true talent for Phelps?

Eh, I’m not sure I buy that. Replacement level for a DH is probably around .725-.750 OPS (not my favorite metric). Maybe Phelps is a little better than replacement level (1 win) but who is going to trade a prospect for that? (No one should at least).

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your Thoughts

CNNSI released there top 5- free agents and potential destinations and had the cardinals getting renteria, grudzelaniek, and kerry wood, what are your thoughts on that

by eburn40oz on Nov 4, 2008 12:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about that

If we can’t get Furcal, we may as well sign Izturis. Renteria, i doubt, will ever hit the way he once did. That said, his defense isn’t very good. Izturis might be the better choice. Grudzelianiek is getting up there in age and won’t be playing as much as we would expect. Love the guy, but I’d rather sign Felipe, WHICH WE BETTER DO. Kerry Wood, if it doesn’t cost too much, and depending on what we do with Izzy and Springer. We have Motte and Perez for the pen possibly.

by EFan on Nov 4, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree on keep lopez instead of getting grudz

I have a feeling that izturis would be about the same as getting renteria…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 4, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis over Renteria??

Renteria having a bad year offensively is still a ton better than Izturis having a normal year. I wouldn’t put that much more value in his defense over his offense.

by wizardofozzie on Nov 4, 2008 11:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually

It’s not.

Izturis (2008) – .263/.319/.309 OPS+ 67

Renteria (2008) – .270/.317/.382 OPS+ 84

That’s only 17 points of difference, and when you consider that Izturis was the second best defensive SS in all of baseball last year, while Edgar was one of the worst, the difference in defense will easily make up for that difference in OPS. Considering that Iz2 would probably also be cheaper, I don’t think you can make a case that Edgar is worth the money unless he’s going to revert to the form he had when he was a Cardinal, both at the plate and in the field.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.. wasn't aware he had that bad of a year

Guess you proved me wrong. But still him coming back to the NL would have to improve his numbers, and it would be a slight improvement over Izturis but not worth over 5-6 mil.

by wizardofozzie on Nov 4, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Renteria

If you’re going to sign Edgar, it has to be on a one year deal for about $6M, and you have to be nearly sure that he’s going to revert to 2007 form (or something close to it), or you might as well re-sign Iz2 and pay him half of that.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fresh from the Rumor Mill....

straight up makes me hesitant, but if there were some more goodies in their grab bag…then maybe….

by timmycardinals on Nov 4, 2008 5:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i've been a pretty big

proponent of dealing for k. johnson, but more has come back for ludwick. now escobar strait up, that seems more likely.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Nov 4, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ludwick/Johnson

I feel this would be a pretty good deal for the Cards. Johnson is slightly younger and plays a position we desperately need. We have Rasmus to take his place, and Ludwick probably won’t have another great year like he did (even though he is still projected to have a pretty darn good one). It would leave us money to sign a SS and a pitcher.

by wizardofozzie on Nov 4, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but if he has a better year than last season...

boy do we look dumb

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 5, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sell high on ludwick

i have a feeling we’d be coming out on top on this one. just a gut feeling though

Smell the Glove

by emrfg8 on Nov 4, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ludwick for kelly johnson isn't selling high, though

KJ is probably not even better than kennedy when defense is considered…

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope Mo isn't seriously considering a deal like that

no where near equal value – especially since SS is a more pressing need than 2B.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Nov 4, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ludwick was worth twice Johnson in 2008.

Even if Ludwick regresses, a one-for-one swap looks like a loser for the Cardinals.

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2008 8:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

I’d do either of these two deals with the Braves:

Ludwick for Escobar and a pitching prospect

Ankiel for Johnson, Lillibridge, and a low level pitching prospect.

Anything less than that and we’re getting the shaft.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Nov 4, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sleeping well...

I’m of the school that anything Carp gives us next year is a plus, but we shouldn’t plan on him. I think we can be competitive without him, if we make the smart moves and improve the pen, SS, and 2B.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Nov 4, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

palms sweating

I kept refreshing hoping there was more information. Stomach dropped, just thinking what history might come of what happened on Tuesday… Why did this happen? What are the projections? What would the outcome be? How is this going to turn out and what will it mean for our future?

Too soon to call, they say. Damn them.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 4, 2008 9:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

apparently the braves think kelly johnson may be too much for ludwick

am i completely missing something here…are the braves that stupid….if i was the braves i would jump all over that deal

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 4, 2008 10:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

just now managed to read that thread

Too funny.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

then again

they do have jeff francoeur to play right field. snicker. The worst defensive right fielder in the game, by +/- . Skip schumaker would be a 3-4 win upgrade over francoeur, and luddy would be 7 or 8, most likely. 24.3 and 57.8 runs offensively in 2008, plus around 2 wins defensively each.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't seem like a sabermetrically inclined group.

Kelly Johnson is a good 2B but Ludwick was a great RF last year.

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2008 10:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

i can barely stand to read the comments for most articles. Right on par with the PD, except that you have cubs fans and yankees fans to deal with.

Still, every now and then you find a gem that makes it worthwhile.

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Nov 4, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kelly Johnson??

Why is everyone so high on this guy? His hitting is supposed to be his plus and that isn’t even very good. His defense is attrocias. We’ve got to go after Furcal, and then make a trade with the white sox for alexei ramirez for 2b. Ludwick for furcal. A few other prospects for ramirez.

by pkjsp83 on Nov 7, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Furcal is a FA

so we don’t need to make a trade for him

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Nov 8, 2008 9:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thoughts on Holliday for Ludwick?

Ludwick no doubt had a career year but still should be a valuable and relatively affordable for the next couple of years. Holliday’s home/road splits are rather telling.

1.063 OPS Home
.803 OPS away

Coors effect, anyone?

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Nov 6, 2008 9:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Some quick reasons I see as why it could and why it could not happen.....

First I find two things that make me think this trade won’t happen.

1. The huge increase in salary the Cards would have to pay to Holliday to fill in a position that is not in dire need of filling. They have a glut of outfielders and I feel they will trade some OF’s to fill the two holes in the MI first and others. Its just not like the Cards to do something like this in the past as they tend to fill needs first. They put a self limit on how big they will let their payroll rise. The more they pay for a OF the less they have for the holes they need to fill. But, things can change, so who knows?

2. The Rockies would be taking on Ludwick who had a great year, but was it a career year for him or the beginning of a great future? He is 30 years old….. So, which is it? Career year? The beginning of more great years? To give up a proven player like Holliday, who is 2 years younger seems a bit like a chance they would be taking.

Reasons why it may happen:

1. The Cardinals get a proven big bat. I kept hearing how playing in Coors helped Holliday, but I looked up his split stats and his road numbers are pretty darn good also. But, playing at Coors does have an effect on his numbers. With him batting behind Pujols it could be a lot of fun to watch.

2. The Rockies could free up a lot of money to fill their needs and become more competitive in the West, but that is if Ludwick continues to perform. I believe he would, especially at Coors. So, the Rockies would gain a lot from this.

Those are just some quick thoughts I have about this proposed trade. I am sure there are more reasons to make this trade happen and more reasons to keep it from happening. I would love to see more reasons on both sides of why this trade may or may not happen.

"It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."
-Dizzy Dean

by thegashousegang on Nov 9, 2008 7:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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