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Heroes

First things first – the relievers’ projections. Yesterday I posted the starters’ projections from Bill James. Friday, Dan posted our hitters’ projections. The Bill James Handbook has been made available to us courtesy of SBN and Acta Sports.

Again, they’re pretty incomplete. For one thing, neither Motte nor Kinney are included, presumably b/c they pitched so few innings this season. Flores isn’t included either. Hmm…Maybe that’s a good omen. I also think that the ERA projections are less valuable w/ relievers than they are for starters b/c so much depends on so many other factors. This time, I’ve included this year’s actual numbers in parentheses. Anyway, here we go:

ERA BB/9 K/9 HR/9
Franklin 4.36 (3.55) 2.7 (3.4) 4.8 (5.8) 1.3 (1.1)
Izzy 3.39 (5.70) 3.9 (4.6) 8.1 (7.6) 0.9 (1.1)
McClellan 3.77 (4.04) 2.9 (3.1) 7.3 (7.0) 0.7 (0.8)
Perez 3.90(3.46) 6.2 (4.8) 10.5 (9.1) 0.9 (1.1)
Springer 3.22 (2.32) 2.9 (3.2) 7.7 (8.1) 1.1 (0.7)
Thompson 4.58 (5.15) 2.7 (2.6) 4.6 (4.5) 1.1 (0.7)
Villone 4.22 (4.68) 4.7 (6.7) 7.7 (9.0) 0.9 (0.7)

There are a couple of things here that should stand out. First, McClellan and Springer should be valuable members of the pen, if Springer, in fact, returns. Villone sucks (he won’t be back anyway) and Thompson, too, is pretty bad. It wouldn’t stun me if the Cards end up cutting bait w/ Brad. He could be an OK Franklin-type out of the pen, but the bullpen isn’t better w/ both of them down there and he’s out of options.

Izzy’s projection is mind-numbing, IMO. Does anyone (including Tony, Dunc, or Izzy) really think he’s got that kind of a season left in him? Finally, there’s Perez, who’s projected to see both his walk and strikeout rates increase precipitously. I could see his walk rate being as high as it was last year – about 1 every 2 innings – but not increasing to 2 every 3 IP. Might his K rate jump like that? I guess if he got better control of his slider (which doesn’t seem to be how Bill James projects it) he might strike out more batters. It’s pretty clear to me that someone w/ the numbers that are projected for Perez wouldn’t make it as a closer for a good team. Either Perez will pitch considerably better than that, or we’re going to have to find someone to pitch in the 9th. Apparently, James likes Izzy!

There were only 8 relievers in baseball last year who threw as many as 40 IP and had BB rates as high or higher than that projected for Perez next year. Interestingly, 2 of them are Ron Villone and Charlie Manning. That gives me a lot of comfort! The best of those 8 was Fernando Rodney who finished w/ an FIP of 4.12 and an ERA of 4.91. BTW, his K rate was also over 10 – as Perez’s is projected. If the best we’re going to get out of Perez is Fernando Rodney, it’s not good enough. I’m going to make the bold prediction that Perez is considerably better, particularly w/ his BB rate than Rodney.

Yesterday kindred asked about any comparisons that have been made between the different projection systems as a way of evaluating how accurate the James projections might be. So far this year, there haven’t been any that I know of. Every year, BP runs comparisons of the projection systems. Here are last year’s hitter projection comparisons and pitcher projection comparisons. (subscription only) Unsurprisingly, they appear to favor their own PECOTA projections so take that for what you will. Here are the ones flimtotheflam found from The Hardball Times for this year. In any case, neither evaluated the James projections as part of their comparison so it doesn’t help us any even looking back a year.

The big Cardinal news coming yesterday was that Albert Pujols was chosen by MLB as its Clemente Award winner. To many, this is a "so what" award. They’re waiting to hear on the MVP. To Albert, however, this is a very big deal. The Clemente Award is given every year to "the player who best exemplifies the game of baseball, sportsmanship, community involvement and the individual's contribution to his team." Albert received this award largely for the work he’s done w/ his Pujols Family Foundation. He also does work w/ the Boys and Girls Clubs of America and the Ronald McDonald House.

Pujols has had the reputation of being somewhat snarly at times, particularly w/ the media. There have been questions at times about how well he gets along w/ his teammates, etc. Still, we’ve all known for years what a great player he is and I think we’ve all known how fortunate the Cards have been over those years to have a team whose best player is also its hardest worker. He is a perfectionist and works arduously at his craft. He’s the best hitter in baseball and probably the best fielder at his position in baseball. In fact, he’s one of the best defensive players in the game.

He’s also one of the best human beings in the game – comments about Tom Glavine or Ryan Howard notwithstanding. Yesterday, he was recognized for it. I’m posting late Saturday night b/c this morning I’m on my way to a 5K walk for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. I’m walking in support of one of my students whose younger brother has type-1 juvenile diabetes. I tell you this not to tell you what a great human being I am. I mentioned it b/c I’ll never hit like Pujols or field like Pujols. I’ll never play for the Cardinals or earn $16 M a year. I’ll certainly never be a World Champion, an MVP, a Gold Glover, or a Hall of Famer. But I can do things to help others, even if it just means getting my ass out of bed on a Sunday morning and getting a little exercise. If our heroes can’t encourage us to be more like them, then they’re not really heroes, are they?

I’ve left the links to all those organizations in case you’re inclined to visit the websites so you can learn a little more about all the work that Pujols does when he’s not crushing baseballs. And I’m done preaching. Thank you for indulging me.

I’ll have a World Series game thread up for Game 4 later on.

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Well said

on everything about Albert. We may not have Albert’s skill, money or platform to reach multitudes of people, but we can all do something. Thank you for bringing this up.

Now, about the projections…. If Young Pitcher experiences an elevation in his walk rate that steep, we definitely need someone else to close. And if Izzy has that much left in the tank, sign him to a one-year incentive laden deal RIGHT NOW! Personally, I don’t think either projection will be accurate.

Oh, and FIRST! Wait, this isn’t a game thread…..my bad.

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 26, 2008 7:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Very well put chuckb,

Question on the projection: where can we find Manning’s numbers for 09? I don’t expect him to be any better than Villone, in fact I’d expect him to probably do worse, but I’m interested to see what his projections are.

Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time

by RunninRedbird on Oct 26, 2008 9:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Congrats to Albert

on winning another much-deserved award. Hopefully he will make a clean sweep with the MVP in a couple weeks.

I sometimes wonder about the getting along with teammates stuff. I think that is overblown—especially when you read stuff like this (from Joe Posnanski’s blog). I wonder what else can the guy do?:

I remember once talking to one guy on the Cardinals and asking him what Pujols was like as a teammate. He went on and on about how the guy always came through, how his work ethic was insane, how he cared only about winning. Then he said something that’s really special, if you think about it. He said: "Albert is so good that you feel like you let him down when you screw up." I thought that had to be the ultimate line that could ever be said about a ballplayer. I build my baseball team around that ballplayer.

Anyway, on to the relievers. Not having Motte in projections is a big hole when looking at the projected relievers. Kinney probably as well. Not sure Young Pitchers is 100% ready for the role but unless it is Motte not sure who else would be. I don’t think signing K-Rod or Feuntes is worth giving up a first-round choice in next year’s draft. Maybe bringing back Izzy on an incentive-laden deal isn’t the worst idea ever…

by nmstar on Oct 26, 2008 10:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Albert's more excited about his teammates' home runs than his own

Nuff said.

I think he’s just snarly with the media because they don’t play baseball and they’re not on his team.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 26, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There was some crazy Fanpost

two posts, actually, about the “culture of winning.” Well, there it is: Albert Pujols is the culture of winning!

by Red in Chicago on Oct 26, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off topic.....

But, what does everybody think of Holliday? Looks like the Rox officially put him on the trading block yesterday.

I know OF isn’t really a need, and I know there has been alot of concern about his numbers away from Colorado, but I like the guy, and think he “fits” in the lineup.

Of course, there is probably no way we can trade for him AND sign a big name SS.

As much as I’d like to find a way to deal for him, and as much as I’d like that way to not include Raz, I just don’t think we can do it, and still fill the other holes that our team so clearly has.

I’d move Skip, Barton, Ankiel, Duncan to try and make it happen though, if the Rox liked any of those guys. Not sure what kind of spects they are wanting back in return.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Oct 26, 2008 12:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lots of reasons why not to do this deal

1. He can only play left. Left field is where Ludwick resides.
2. He’s a free agent at the end of the year. How much do you give up for that?
3. He’s going to earn a ton of money next year—money the team needs to save for non-outfield needs.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 26, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought RF was Luddy's place

while I agree with the 2 & 3, I would much rather have Holliday in left than Skip, Dunc, or Barton. Not at the cost though.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Oct 26, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It won't be next year.

Rasmus & Ankiel have got center and right covered.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 26, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that is if Rasmus makes the team

and I still wouldn’t be surprised if Ank was moved.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Oct 26, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That may be

But moving Ankiel because we don’t want to pay him $8-10 million a year next year and signing Matt Holliday next year (assuming we can) to an even more expensive deal for maybe a little more consistency and the same power is a foolish move.

I doubt Ankiel is traded, and personally hope he isn’t.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 26, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

holliday

excellent point. im not sure holliday is that much better anyways.

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.....

Holliday is a much more polished hitter, and would add a consistent, high batting average type bat, instead of having Pujols and 3 guys that are hit or miss, slugger types.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Oct 26, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree

that Holliday would be preferable, everything else being equal. The problem is, he is far more expensive than anyone he would replace, most especially Ryan Ludwick. He’s probably going to average .320 next year. I’ll say Ludwick will average .300. Those 20 points are only worth 11 hits in 550 plate appearances. Is 11 hits and a little higher walk rate worth $5-10 million a year? (And that’s without considering his defense, which is just average.)

We can easily upgrade the middle infield with that money. Better yet, buy Troy Glaus some antihistamines and get him a pair of goggles.

by Red in Chicago on Oct 26, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well.....

I think Luddy will be closer to .280 or .290. Still not a huge difference though.

I’d rather he replace Ankiel. I think the difference there would be quite a bit, and would help our lineup be quite a bit more consistent, which was it’s biggest problem.

I realize it depends what we have to give up, as to whether it ends up being a good deal or not, just saying that it’s something we should at least look at.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Oct 26, 2008 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

holliday

i didnt say he wouldnt be better, i said he wouldnt be THAT much better. take holliday out of coors and the numbers would be close.

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why does this Holliday thing keep coming up?

it drives me insane. while he’s good, he’s not even that much better than our outfielders, except Ludwick, who is better than Holliday. I’d rather have Ank, Barton, etc. because I like them more anyway.

go rays

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 27, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you want a one year rental, why not go with Brian Giles?

He is a seriously good player. I know his power is gone, but he brings lots and lots of other great skills. And you can send him packing after the year.

One problem, though. He has a no trade clause and has thus far been unwilling to waive it. But he could be good protection against any of the current outfielders regressing/getting injured, and ease some of the pressure on Rasmus, if he happens to be patrolling the outfield next season.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Oct 26, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK...

So I just went on a short speech saying I’d try my best to keep Ankiel and Ludwick next year and beyond if possible on another thread…but if prospects not named Rasmus/Motte/Perez and one of our good starters in the minors (not sure which yet) can be combined with Ankiel to make the move, then I do it for someone of Holliday’s talents.

by stlfan on Oct 27, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My major question about Izzy...

How healthy is he gonna be able to get, and how healthy can he possibly stay? A healthy Izzy is still an effective pitcher; a “dinged” Izzy izzn’t… and trying to “pitch through the pain” is counter-productive for him.

Anyone’s “projections” are more-or-less educated guesses… f’rinstance, suppose Perez gets in better shape (apparently a Duncan concern) and develops a third pitch to “show” batters? (Split-finger? “Circle” Change?) Or Motte develops a second pitch? Obviously, the Cards need to improve their bullpen; if Kinney is healthy for an entire season, that’s an upgrade right there! (And I’m not suggesting Kinney close.)

There’s lots of possibility in the Cards’ bullpenners as things stand; (where, oh where is Tyler Johnson?) whether the Birds get “outbid” on K-Rod (my guess) or not…

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Oct 26, 2008 12:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

worth a minor-league contract?

should we give Izzy a chance to make the roster in ST? Non-roster invitee? would Izzy go for it?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Oct 26, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

izzy

is being nice to izzy more important than winning games? after 07 i was behind him but hes been terrible 2 of the last 3 years. i think his confidence is gone. did u watch him close games this year? he looked scared out there. i wish him luck on his new team.

now whos our closer? my vote is a trade for joakim soria but thats probab;y not happening. anyone want street or gregg as our closer. i dont. krod and fuentes r too expensive so who?

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone care about the World Series?

I hit up a few different parties last night and had to beg people to turn on the game. “Hey, Can you turn on the baseball game?” , Their response “What game?”. I just look at them in disbelief trying to explain to them the World Series. I am huddled around a small TV trying to watch the game and no one else seemed to even care.

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 26, 2008 2:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Is anyone from new york in it?

No? Red Sox? No? cubs? (Thank god No). Is there a rerun of friends on! YEAAAHHH!!

I am enjoying every moment out of this World Series, but very few people are. It’s even gotten kinda quiet around here during the series. But someone did post something in the thread last night showing StL had the highest viewership in the US that didn’t have an interest in the game. So that’s kinda cool.

by davethebutcher on Oct 26, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is what happens when the media (ESPN, ect.)

only focuses on 2-3 teams (Yankees, Red Sox, Mets,) during the season every year. So the fact that ratings are poor when other (non- media hyped teams) shouldn’t come as a suprise. Until MLB can get some of these media outlets to cover more than 2-3 teams during the season it will continue. To me this is baseball’s biggest problem. They REALLY need to somehow get the media to cover more than a few of the big market teams during the season. It can be done…look at the NFL.

Plus I think MLB can do a better job of making the World Series into a bigger event than the way it is covered now. To me they need to get away from FOX and get the games back on NBC, ABC, or CBS.
Another factor…..the World Series has to compete with College football & the NFL on the weekends….that is a loosing battle in this day and age.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Oct 26, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I care

and despite the Bad News Bears-sort of way in which last night’s game ended, think that the series has been pretty good so far. I look forward to 4 more games.

by chuckb on Oct 26, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't

i hate Philly & St. Pete,errrr Tampa shouldn’t have a team in the first place.

last nights game was a joke. starting after 10pm est,, what the hell?

i guess i’m getting too old or too wrapped up in a select few teams that if they aren’t in the post season, my mind wonders elsewhere.

if PK is gone next year, i don’t know what i’ll do with myself.

nice post chuck. we can all be heroes, if only for just one day.

i know i’ve been gone since the season ended, but did you used to be houstoncardinal? if not, and we lost another one, no offense to anyone, but i’m really worried about the future of VEB.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 26, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am worried about the future of VEB

game threads if there is no longer a puppy kicker around

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Oct 26, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 26, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Viva La Puppy Kicker!

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 26, 2008 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, sorry

I used to be houstoncardinal. Everyone’s still around. I just got tired of the name. Thanks for asking.

by chuckb on Oct 26, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good to know. thanks

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 26, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe I should change my name to georgeb

oh wait, that has bad connotations…

go rays

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 27, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not too worried about VEB

Community is still strong here. It is just slowest time of year right now for talking about 2009 baseball

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 26, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i've been away on biz for about a month

i saw Larry’s goodbye late, and i haven’t been able to read anything written since till today. i was a little worried that we had lost all our major main page posters till i realized chuck was htown.

again, no offense to anyone new, but if we had lost everyone from the main page in one off season, i wouldn’t have been the only one who’d be worried.

i’m sure Dan is a great writer. i don’t know this for a fact because i’ve never read his work. but he wouldn’t be here if Larry didn’t think he would be able to carry on the great work he started. i have all the faith in the world VEB will continue to be the best site on the web. change is a must, it is inevitable. but too much change too quickly would have been really scary for this place. i am relieved to know that’s not the case.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Oct 26, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

St. Lou *does* care!

link

Still to find: Game 3 stats for non-rooting cities; is 2006 going to hold as lowest-rated; and why, why insist on that mid-week start date when people go out on the weekends?

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 26, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i have never been able to figure out

why the weekend games aren’t afternoon games. Oh yeah, MLB likes shooting itself in the foot

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Oct 26, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

their big problem is apparently blocking out prime time shows

Well don’t show the games during prime time! But that would be logic, and not Fox-logic.

It sucks that we have so many broadcast networks, yet the NFL always has to come first, and on the smallest number of networks.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 26, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

also: I am getting my free taco. don't watch, don't tell.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 26, 2008 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tampa

The rays have given me some ideas, do you think it’s possible with the ascension of Price (and to a lesser extent Bartlett) that we could try and pry away Andy Sonnastine and Ben Zobrist in a packaged deal. I was thinking maybe Freese, Todd, Schumaker(to play right, I guess), Anderson. Is that deal compatible? Do the salaries match up? Sonnastine has been extremely valuable for the Rays, and would probably land as a 5th starter next year when Price moves up.

Our rotation would be Waino, Lohse, Welly, Carp(if healthy, I’m assuming not), Sonnastine, K-Mac, Looper(if carp isn’t ready). Zobrist plays SS(with Miles as backup), cut loose Kennedy and Izturis and try to find a 2B with that extra $.

Maybe I’m being incoherent and unrealistic, but I think Sonnastine is a rare talent in his approach that would compliment the rotation in a great way, while Zobrist has been tossed around here and would add a good bat in comparison to AK, CI, and AM.

"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"

by tgreenfield on Oct 26, 2008 6:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

#2 reason I'm watching the Series

It’s like a shopping trip for Hot Stovers.

(#1 reason: I might miss something crazy… like a five-man infield, or steals-in-a-postseason record breaking, or the many ways to pick off Jason Werth.)

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 26, 2008 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would love to get Sonnastine and Zobrist

But they don’t really need Todd or Freese. They already have starting pitching prospects and have Longoria at Third. We would have to give up our relief prospects Perez, Motte, Salas, and Reifer. I am not saying all of them but at least two of them would be involved. They don’t have a lot of weaknesses they could use some more relief pitching and another power bat like Mather.

by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 26, 2008 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

that, and a lot of people won’t like the idea, but Ankiel for Sonnastine (or maybe Sonnastine + a prospect) might work. They’ve got a hole in RF and will have depth to spare in the rotation. I think that, in the right deal, they’d move Sonnastine. Ankiel may not be right for them, a year away from free agency, but I think they’d have to at least consider it.

by chuckb on Oct 26, 2008 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that works too, honestly.

If it means we don’t have to give up Motte/Perez, I’d definitely do that trade in a heartbeat. Ankiel + midlevel prospect for Zobrist and Sonnastine.

Ankiel is great to watch, but with our organizational depth in the outfield(especially since Skip could play a reasonably similar CF as Ankiel), he’s definitely more expendable. RF becomes Mather/Rasmus/Barton(?) territory.

"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"

by tgreenfield on Oct 26, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would guess

If Rasmus is with the team, he starts in CF and Skip slides over to right.

Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time

by RunninRedbird on Oct 26, 2008 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Barton can play left vs. lefties and Ludwick shifts over to RF.

by stlfan on Oct 27, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trading ank

the rays would probably not want a guy whos about to be a free agent, eventhough rick is from florida and would probably like it. they also need someone like him. i agree trading ankiel makes good business sense but i just dont like it. i wish we could work out an extension with him. i was thinking skip/motte/barton for zobrist and either sonnanstine or jackson. sonnanstine reminds me of suppan but jackson is probably easier to acquire.

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've told you all before Barton is the bait for Tampa Bay. Think about their outfield.

Um, yeah. They could fit him in there nicely. It’s a place to start……..and Barton did go to college in Florida. They probably want more than him for a young arm, but really, it would be a missed opportunity to not find out.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Oct 26, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sonnastine and Jackson

Jackson would be a prototypical reclamation project for Dunc. While he put up good numbers this year, his K/BB ratio was still pretty poor and he gave up a lot of homeruns. His WHIP was .300 higher than Sonnastine. Sonnastine is far better than Suppan, I think. Projects more to be a Brad Radke type of pitcher, high control, low velocity, but exceptionally solid pitcher. I’d even slot him as the #3 in the rotation, especially if Lohse struggles.

I’m not willing just yet to pencil in Rasmus as the starting CF if Ank gets traded. I’d like to think that he’ll get it, but I’m guessing he’ll have to platoon with mather, and I don’t think there’s much wrong with that.

Which I guess brings up a new point: what’s a good trade to get rid of Skip Schu? Maybe a reliever?

And the same question applies to Ankiel, you certainly can’t let him walk free.

"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"

by tgreenfield on Oct 26, 2008 8:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I for one

think that Ank will be in St. Louis for some time to come. skip on the other hand…..

go rays

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 27, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

seriously guys

did either one of u 2 read my post? skip/motte/barton for zobrist and sonnanstine or perez. kind of answers both your questions doesnt it?

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 9:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

jackson

not perez jackson

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 9:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That’s 2/5ths of their rotation right now to trade for a Grant Balfour lookalike, a low power .300 hitter, and a hometown kid. That seems a bit skewed. Price only fills one hole, and while I’m not entirely well-versed on the Rays farm system, that’s an awfully big hole for them to fill.

 I just don’t think that offer is strong enough to get them to bite. They’re pretty savvy decisionmakers over at the Trop. I think this offer is more likely: Ankiel, Motte, Barton(that’s a strong package) for Zobrist, Sonnastine, Jackson. If Jackson gets included in the trade, what’s his role? It would definitely portend the end of Brad Thompson’s reign of terror over our bullpen. Maybe the Rays could add in one more IF prospect, just anything but an outfielder.

"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"

by tgreenfield on Oct 26, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

please read carefully

i know i screwed up the name but the proposal is skip/motte/barton for zobrist and one of sonnanstine and jackson, not both. with price coming in they will trade one of those two guys, not both. this is why the deal seems right. we dont need both anyways. it would be nice but we dont.

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry about the miscommunication, studying for a weekend straight has made me go slightly off the reservation mentally. Ah the pitfalls of an econ major. Either way, I think that’s a reasonably solid trade. If I was Moz, I’d start to prod for Sonnastine and Zobrist sooner rather than later. If Ankiel isn’t included, that certainly frees up him as bait (and let’s face it, we all know he’s trade bait if they decide to stick to youth with Rasmus, Jones, Mather, and the fact he’s a FA and will cost a pretty penny to resign) for other needs. What that trade looks like, I’m not exactly sure.

"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"

by tgreenfield on Oct 26, 2008 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trading ank

i agree trading ank is the next sensible thing to do, eventhough i wish we could get an extension worked out. ive been pushing trading rasmus for joakim soria but thats probably not happening.

i think the yankees would like ankiel(would he like new york?) they need a cf and might not mind the pending fa status. i suggested on stltoday(good website for cardstalk) that we trade ank for bj ryan straight up. we would get 2 years of ryan so perez could develop. they get a power hitting lefty. they really already have 3 ofs but the al does have the dh, plus a 4th outfielder gets atbats anyways. they have other lefty relievers as well we could use.

by joelcards on Oct 26, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

look right ----------------------------------------^ here

reply, reply, reply!!! it’s our friend…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Oct 27, 2008 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is anyone concerned that so many of the key components to a successful season are coming off the scalpel?

AP, Duncan, Ank, Kinney, Johnson., Izzy I would be very reluctant to trade for any of them.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Oct 27, 2008 1:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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