Projection -- the rotation
| Starters | Starts | ERA | BB/9 | K/9 | HR/9 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Carpenter | 8 | 3.34 | 2.2 | 7.2 | 0.8 |
| Lohse | 30 | 4.41 | 2.6 | 5.5 | 1.0 |
| Looper | 30 | 4.03 | 2.5 | 5.0 | 1.0 |
| Pineiro | 22 | 4.63 | 2.7 | 5.5 | 1.2 |
| Wainwright | 25 | 3.80 | 2.7 | 6.6 | 0.8 |
| Wellemeyer | 31 | 4.15 | 4.1 | 6.8 | 1.1 |
Just for reference, here are this year’s numbers.
| Starters | Starts | ERA | BB/9 | K/9 | HR/9 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Carpenter | 3 | 1.76 | 2.4 | 4.1 | 0.0 |
| Lohse | 33 | 3.78 | 2.2 | 5.4 | 0.8 |
| Looper | 33 | 4.16 | 2.0 | 4.9 | 1.1 |
| Pineiro | 25 | 5.15 | 2.1 | 4.9 | 1.3 |
| Wainwright | 20 | 3.20 | 2.3 | 6.2 | 0.8 |
| Wellemeyer | 32 | 3.71 | 2.9 | 6.3 | 1.2 |
Many oddities here, IMHO. Let’s start at the top. Carp’s only healthy enough to make 8 starts but pitches like a Cy Young winner when he is healthy. Does that strike anyone else as odd? A K:BB ratio that’s greater than 3:1? I just don’t see it happening to a guy healthy enough to only take the ball 8 times. There’ll be rust. There’ll be control issues and probably velocity issues as well as he pitches his way into shape. 3-4 starts in the minors aren’t going to get him there.
The projections expect Lohse and Looper to be roughly the same pitcher next year w/ most of their peripherals. Curiously, the projections have Lohse giving up many more hits than Looper next year – thus the considerably higher ERA. In any case, they have him as a league-average, or slightly below league-average pitcher. I guess the larger surprise is that Looper is seen so favorably. Would he have been the better sign? Fewer years, less money. No…he’s older and not even as good as Lohse is. It’s still worth it to offer him arbitration – either he’ll accept and fill our 5th starter role for this year or he’ll decline and we’ll receive a supplemental 2nd round pick.
It’s got Wainwright about where he was this year. Walks are up a little, Ks are up a little also. Same for Pineiro – by about the same amount yet Pineiro’s ERA falls by half a point and Wainwright’s rises by half a point. I suppose mathematically that’s conceivable.
Wellemeyer’s walk rate jumps by more than 1 walk per 9 and yet his ERA rises by less than half a point? If Wellemeyer’s walk rate increases by that much, I’d suspect that he’s going to have a very bad year. Wellemeyer’s success last year was predicated on the fact that Wellemeyer’s walk rate was about 1.5 walks per 9 LESS than his career average. His strike rate last season was 63.5%. Prior to last season, his career strike rate was 59.9%. Prior to last season, Wellemeyer was a bad pitcher. I suspect that his increased strike rate is the result of a learned skill and is, therefore, repeatable. He’s also in his final year before free agency, so signs point to him at least being able to repeat his success next year.
I also think that Looper’s relative success last year gives us a bearing on what to expect from Wellemeyer. Like Looper, Wellemeyer had spent, basically, his entire career in the pen. Like Looper’s ’07, Wellemeyer went through a rough patch in the middle of the season. Wellemeyer’s began in early June – he made just 3 starts in June as he was rested w/ elbow concerns and a tired arm. Between June 13 and July 19, he made 6 starts w/ a 7.55 ERA. He gave up 6 homers and 42 hits in 31 innings. He struck out only 15 in this period. Nevertheless, he still only walked 9 in those 31 innings. In other words, the guy w/ a history of control problems throughout his career, was even able to throw strikes during his worst stretch of the season.
Looper went through a similar stretch in his first season as a starter. Looper’s stretch was longer and more pronounced, however, as he simply doesn’t have the ability to miss bats the way Wellemeyer does. Between May 18 and August 1 of 2007, Looper made 12 starts and spent some time on the DL w/ a tired arm. He gave up 10 homers and 85 hits in 64.1 IP while striking out just 20. He walked 22 during this stretch. His ERA during this 2 ½ month stretch – 7.55. Wow!
The point is that Looper was considerably better last year. He was, like Wellemeyer this year, in his contract year and may earn himself 1 more long-term contract for pretty good money. For his sake, I hope he does, though I wouldn’t mind him returning on a 1 year deal after accepting arbitration. I expect Wellemeyer to be at least as good next year as he was this year, as I think his arm will be stronger and more durable. As long as he can throw strikes, which I guess is Bill James’s point, he’s going to be OK.
Nonetheless, when I see projections like those above for our pitchers, I wouldn’t mind seeing us find a way to add a young starter to the mix.
Tonight’s game 3 of the World Series. I’ll have a game thread up around 7:00. I promise this one will be up on time.
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41 comments
Comments
Any pitch from Carp is a bonus. Did I miss something about Blooper? Is he in the fold?
Chances are that K-Mac will inherit the majority of Carp/Blooper innings with the bulk going to a PTBNL. Shudder. .. .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Oct 25, 2008 7:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i'd like to see looper back next year
someone will need to absorb innings and the need is greater if he walks. if he walks, and carp only makes eight starts, there simply aren’t enough starters. of course the standard options apply, use a young pitcher, sign a free agent or start the search for high upside low investment arm, or wellemeyer v 2.0.
every year GMs find a few of these players, grant ballfour, carlos quentin, jack cust, even wellemeyer are all recent examples of getting a pretty significant return for a small investment.
So here’s the pitch, Boof Bonser. terrible strand rates but an 18% K rate, 6.8% walk rate, 4.22 fip and that good velocity. nothings really out of line with him except the amount of hits he gives up with men on base
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
by Dave Barry on Oct 25, 2008 8:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1 on all accounts
Good post Dave Barry.
I really think, as chuckb said, that we need to offer Looper arbitration. If he accepts, we have this:
Waino
Lohse
Wellemeyer
Looper
Pineiro
Again.
If we make that move, then Carpenter, McClellan, Thompson, and Boggs can all be counted on as #5b starters…starters that can fill in in a pinch. Again, citing chuckb above, Wellemeyer should get better in terms of durability, but Looper still had some problems with that in his 2nd season as a starter. I’d expect BOTH Looper and Wellemeyer to improve in this facet of their game, but let’s face it…both will probably see some starts go by the wayside.
If Pineiro pitches like 2008, then one of those four may be #5a by the end of the season. With one year left on his contract, I see no way that Pineiro isn’t cut, or made a permanent member of the bullpen by June or July if he pitches the same as ’08.
If we don’t get Looper back, we have Pineiro as our #4. If that is the case, then everything after the bolded statement above, is DOUBLY true. That is scary.
by stlfan on Oct 25, 2008 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One point
Thompson’s out of options. It’s not clear there’s room for him in the pen. Boggs may be the designee—which I have no problem with.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 25, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Bonser's acquirable
I don’t know what the Twins will want in return, but we should look into it. You just can’t have enough good arms and, even if he couldn’t stick in the rotation (he’s their Reyes), he could stick in our pen.
by chuckb on Oct 25, 2008 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they need to
rebuild the left side of their infield. we can’t help much with the shortstop, but we might have a spare third baseman around.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
by Dave Barry on Oct 25, 2008 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
08 min infield (excluding 1b)
3b buscher 97, ss harris 94, 2b casilla 91, u.i. tolbert 92 …….f.a. ss punto 96 ……..avg 94 ops+…….
w/out punto in 09……avg 93.5 ops+ remaining
08 stl infield (excluding 1b)
3b glaus 124, ss ryan 59, 2b kennedy 82, u.i. miles 99…….f.a. ss izturis 67………avg 86.2 ops+……
w/out izturis in 09……avg 91 ops+ remaining
w/out izturis in 09……with punto……avg 92 ops+ (up from 86.2 in 08)
a punto f.a. signing could ugrade the stl infield in 09, while min loses depth but very little from quality of ops+ remaing.
freese could put up a 97 ops+ or better in 09, but buscher’s 97 is proven. trading for fresse may be less than the ugrade they hope to acquire, after possibly losing punto this offseason to f.a. status.
stl in 09 could sign punto 96 over izturis 67, and replace ryan 59 with freese 97(projected) and look to gain 67 ops+ while not trading freese due to buscher, harris and tolbert filling their roles w/ a near avg quality ops+.
glaus, punto, kennedy, miles and fresse(97 projected)…..avg 97.6 avg ops+ (up from 86.2 in 08)
it doesn’t help the bosner acquisition topic, but a freese trading could force a lesser ops+ onto the roster in a utility infield role.
trading for a potential starter should require a potential starter in return. if stl uses outfield depth as the chip for bosner (instead of freese), we could be chosing schumaker, mather or barton to the roster over ryan (miles as the middle infield u.i. after a shortstop signing). if a kennedy trade did happen, stl could upgrade at 2b with a f.a. signing, or start miles at 2b w/ryan as u.i.
300 ab from freese in 09 allows stl to get a half season evaluation of their 2010 3b replacement, and chooses freese over ryan.
just another viewpoint to consider……
by ball in play on Oct 25, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
couple of things
freese’s minor league line is .307/385/527, or a .912 ops, against buscher’s line of .287/359/416 and .775 ops, and i don’t think 218 big league at bats makes you “proven.” just an example, but brendan ryan put up a .753 ops in 180 at bats last year, before falling to a sub 600 this season.
for the record i never directly advocated freese for bonser, simply stated their shortage happened to match a surplus of ours. however, i am skeptical that freese would be put into the utility infield spot, not because of his skill level, but i just see larussa finding an old vet to fill the spot, which the catch words of experience and versatility as the monikers for the extra expense and lesser production. simply put, i don’t see freese having direct impact on this club next year short of a glaus injury.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
by Dave Barry on Oct 25, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
then who
if not freese……glaus ? (he may have a no-trade). wallace can’t be traded yet. craig doesn’t bring back a guy who you consider a possible #5 sp, does he? so i used freese as your “spare 3b around”. if you don’t see freese, then just name the mystery player. freese for bonser is trading down, imo.
i’d rather upgrade the infield backups with one being freese. i’m on the “grow from within” bandwagon, if the player is good :)
punto looks like an upgrade too.
by ball in play on Oct 25, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know
that’s why it was left ambiguous. the feeling i get is that the bonser situation in MN is not so different from the reyes situation here, and we all know he was acquired for a minor league reliever, not vital to our 25 or 40 man roster. i’d like to think craig would bring back bonser, but it’s all useless speculation on my part.
i do like the idea of the young cost controlled freese getting the opportunity to be the twenty fifth man on the roster, and if he can replace one of the lingering middle infielders off the bench and aid his development, great, but i just don’t see it happening that way
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
by Dave Barry on Oct 25, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we should have traded reyes then
perdromo isn’t exactly rocketing along
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Oct 25, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
prefer thompson over bonser
which bumps bonser to an already over crowded rhp pen.
hope looper looks for a 3 yr deal, declines arb, and thompson replaces looper as 5th sp.
if $ are spent on a 5th f.a. sp, as an upgrade over thompson, fine.
don’t see bonser as an upgrade over looper or thompson.
by ball in play on Oct 25, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonser reminds me a bit too much of kip wells.
Decent velocity and stuff but no mettle or guile.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Oct 25, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brad Thompson is not a starting pitcher
He has one above average pitch. There’s not a chance he’d last a whole season in the rotation.
by azruavatar on Oct 25, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else think
this projection sells Wainwright waaayyy to short? The guy has, at least IMO, Cy Young caliber stuff and if he’s healthy in ‘09 I’d say he’ll be one of the top 5 righty pitchers in the NL.
Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time
by RunninRedbird on Oct 25, 2008 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Wainwright:
ERA BB/9 K/9 HR/9
2008: 3.20/2.3/6.2/0.8
2007: 3.70/3.1/6.1/0.6
Career: 3.48/2.8/6.5/0.7
Wainwright showed improvement this year as a starter in a decent sample size of 132 innings. The only category in which he really faltered was the homeruns allowed, but as long as he keeps walks down he should be OK. I don’t see why the projection is so down on him when it comes to ERA. Even with his terrible start in 07, he didn’t post a 3.80 ERA, so I just don’t see that happening. With a full season, I say he’s a CY Young contender.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 25, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I thought so too.
At this point in his career, Adam is still getting better. He won’t be “regressing” because he hasn’t even reached his average of achievement yet. Low threes ERA seems pretty achievable if he’s healthy.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 25, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it does, in a way
it’s silly to try and project ERAs b/c they’re so dependent on defense and luck. The peripherals, however, do have some value. These sell him short in terms of his BB/9. His career BB/9 is 2.78 but last year, as I pointed out, it was 2.2. Projecting him to jump up half a walk a game is a bit much for a pitcher in his prime, particularly one of Wainwright’s caliber. He definitely improved his BB rate last year and I see no reason to believe it was a fluke.
The projection for his K/9 is a pretty good one — certainly better than last year’s numbers. So I think these are a mixed bag.
by chuckb on Oct 25, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The art of projecting pitching success is a roll of the dice and anything can happen and usually does. It is smart to protect yourself for the unknown because the unknown is going to happen. This staff may have enough depth but I do not believe that the top end of the rotation is of the quality to win championships. The top of the rotation starts with Wainright these days, not Carpenter, and I agree that Wainright is undervalued. He can compete with the other #1’s and probably will. From there the drop off is significant and in my opinion there is no legimate #2 or #3 guy. Lahose and Wellemeyer are fine for the bottom of the rotation but Pinero is a gamble and Carpenter should not be counted on for anything. The other guys who have been mentioned can fill in at the bottom of the rotation, but you don’t fill-in at the top of the rotation.
Just an opinion, but I think they are for certain at least one frontline pitcher away from being a contender.
by Warcard on Oct 25, 2008 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agree
which, i hope, is why they did not go after looper. maybe they will spend some more money here and try to get bonser, lowe, or penny. definitely can’t count or carp, but can’t financially afford to duplicate him a la peavy. tough spot finding the competitive middle ground with the rotation
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Oct 25, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with most points...
except I would call the Colonel a #3 if he pitches like he did this year. If he improves even just a little, you could make a case for calling him a #2. A 3.71 ERA and a high strikeout rate are not things to complain about, although he will have to limit the walks more.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 25, 2008 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dr. Pineiro and Mr Hyde
When I look at Pineiro’s standard pitch line of 7-7 and 5.15 I regret him being signed. I also admit that I was wrong in my initial excitement. However when I went to the Cards MLB page and looked at his game log I see a tale for two pitchers. In April he pitched well twice, and on the 29th pitch seven innings of one hit ball. After back to back strong starts I was looking forward to watching him the rest of the season. Then May rolled around and yuck. I ask in all sincerity if he is "craptastic" how can he come out like he did in June on back to back starts against KC and the Sox and pitch as well as he did? Is it an age thing, poor conditioning, bad preparation, or a combination of all three. The Cards certainly need him to be more consistent next year. Again in all sincerity does anyone think he can be? His 2008 season was a tale of two pitchers Dr. Pineiro and Mr Hyde.
With the rotation looking like: Wainman, Loshe, Welley, Pineiro, and Looper? Signing another free agent pitcher might not be needed. I wouldn’t mind seeing some of the younger guys getting a start now and then to help keep the rotation fresh. A couple of starts from Carpenter might do that. This way when September rolls a round the staff will not be played out.
On October 13 Merry CRasmus’ post about free agent pitchers and the odds against them paying off got me thinking that it might not be a good idea to go after Lowe/Burnett. So Mo if you decide to spend money get Furcal and leave Lowe/Burnett alone.
by nybirdfan on Oct 25, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you assuming we sign Looper?
He’s not under contract, and I’m doubting that we’ll sign him. I would offer him arb because we either get draft picks or a 1-year deal, but I don’t know how things will work out.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 25, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well,
I have “?” next to looper’s name. I am not sure what will happen there, but I would like the arbitration offer is a smart move.
by nybirdfan on Oct 25, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I should have noticed the ?. My bad.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 25, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loop
Has Mo ever mentioned arbitration for Looper? I don’t recall ever reading any comments by Mo to that effect.
by santiagofish on Oct 25, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are waiting to see about Carpenter.
Based upon public statements, I think they are planning on going outside to find a “swingman.” I hate that term. It basically means a relief pitcher who isn’t good enough to start anymore, if he ever was. We already have one of those and his name is Brad Thompson.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 25, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson
agree with the assesment – I’m reading between the lines that Thompson will probably not be back with the Cards in 2009.
by Knighttime on Oct 25, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
would be nice to know looper is going after a 3 yr contract, if that's the case.
could be a career end type contract, i couldn’t blame him for looking for.
if the FO knew that info, they could offer arb knowing it will be declined. taking the pick and avoiding paying looper in the 7.5 mil range (pineiro) for one year, as a bottom rotation guy. add budget to loopers declined arb $ and go after a solid #2, as $ better spent. (loopers arb or a #2 sp offer, as part of the 20mil available in 09)
leaves carpenter, pineiro, thompson, boggs as 5th sp.
by ball in play on Oct 25, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
question...
… i’m assuming James doesn’t publish his formula, but does he follow-up on his projections to see how accurate they tend to be? i’d especially be interested in the standard deviations from his predictions.
same with PECOTA and the rest of the models as well. anyone know if that info is out there?
by kindred on Oct 25, 2008 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BP does this at the end of the season
and, if I get a chance tonight, I’ll see if I can look up that info and put it in tomorrow’s thread.
by chuckb on Oct 25, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is one by Hardball Times
Comparing how THT, CHONE, PECOTA, and ZIPS did against each other this year
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/so-how-did-tht-projections-do/
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 25, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cool, thanks...
… as i suspected, the variance for pitchers is pretty high. the average s.e. for pitchers was ~ .650 points of ERA, and none were less than .620. and that’s one s.e.; if this approximates a standard distro, then ~ 32% of players will be outside of one s.e.; tack on another s.e. to cover 95% of pitchers and you’d be looking at a bound of +- 1.3 point of ERA. that’s a lot.
so if James’ model performs similarly to the others, then Wainwright’s projected ‘09 ERA is roughly within one s.e. of his ’08 actual performance. it seems a tad unreasonable at first glance, but actually it’s probably a pretty good guess.
by kindred on Oct 25, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i imagine...
… that these projections are just midpoints of some confidence interval. and i know that some projection systems actually give leveled projections. i’d love to see that data, if you find time to track it down.
by kindred on Oct 25, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitching
looper wont come back unless the news on carp is definitely bad. carp really needs to come back. i would prefer to assume he will at this point. if he doesnt it will be a tough year.
bonsor would be good but hes righthanded. with garcia(our only potential lefty starter) going down we need a lefty starter or at least a swingman(thompson but lefthanded and good). how about jeremy affeldt? he had a career year but it was in cincy. k an inning, era of 3.33, he looks good. i also like mark hendrickson because he should be cheap. who has a young lefty starter available for trade? thats what we need. tampa has a lot.
by joelcards on Oct 25, 2008 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i really dont think having a lefty starter
is a priority. if we had a stadium that favored left handed batters a lot more than right handers (i.e. Old Yankee Stadium) then a lefty starter would be more useful but since our stadium is more neutral it doesn’t create the dire need for one. although, that doesnt mean it wouldn’t mean nice to have one…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Oct 25, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One would come in handy against
the Phillies, the Mets and the Brewers, to name three.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 25, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure i understand the Brewers
they only have one left-hand batter that is any good and they are trying to trade him. and the other two is why you have two lefty’s in the pen for situations when you face the big hitters in crucial situations.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Oct 25, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
starters
i wouldnt call it a requirement but it would be nice. we have no starter or bullpen guy from the left that can get people out. i think olsen from florida is available but hes a knucklehead. i dont think there is a team in baseball with worse pitching from the left side.
by joelcards on Oct 25, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stay away from olson
a drop in velocity combined with declining K rates=trouble not to far away. now if florida loses their minds and decides to trade any of their other starting candidates, i’ll be all for it.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
by Dave Barry on Oct 25, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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