Culture makes a difference in winning and losing
Team culture seems to be one factor that makes the difference between winning and losing in sports. I submit that premise for your discussion.
Culture is the prevailing, persistent pattern of ideas, beliefs, assumptions, customs, symbols, and traditions that are shared by a group. Different teams, different cities have different cultures. They are ever evolving, but the core pattern of beliefs and assumptions tend to get passed down by various “rituals”, “legends”, “heroes”, and “myths” that express the core beliefs and assumptions and practices of the culture. This is what makes culture persist for a long time, changing much more slowly than particular customs and symbols do.
There is plenty of research evidence that every organization has a culture, and that culture has a significant, pervasive effect on the success of the organization. (Anyone can google the question and find a number of articles from leading business schools and organizational psychologists.) Rather than cite the dry academic evidence, I will post the much more colorful and entertaining evidence that can be found in articles by baseball writers and reporters. I hope those who are interested in the question of culture will enjoy them.
Here is the first reference for your consideration:
How did the Rays do it?
By Gerry Fraley
SPECIAL TO THE POST-DISPATCH
10/21/2008
[Excerpts]
Joe Maddon insists that he is as “old school’’ as Branch Rickey....
(Outfielder Delmon) Young was among several young players whom Maddon felt had a sense of entitlement that turned the club into a splintered group.
“I was more concerned about building relationships and trust within the organization,’’ Maddon said. “The accountability factor had to be nurtured and grown. It was almost at zero.’’
In case anyone did not get the message, Maddon twice pulled talented center fielder B.J. Upton from games this season after he gave half-hearted efforts. Upton has tied a record with seven homers in the playoffs.
“We’ve always had talent over here,’’ Upton said. “In the past, it’s kind of been guys on the individual, trying to do their own thing. Now, we’re thinking like a team and playing like a team.’’
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Maddon leading the cultural revolution
Maddon leading the cultural revolution
By Howard Bryant
ESPN.com, October 13, 2008
[Excerpts]
A cultural revolution
There is a segment of the baseball establishment willing to listen to Joe Maddon, hungry for a new paradigm, and another segment that seems untrustworthy of the motivational speeches, the references to Sisyphus and the unorthodox methods that appear part Oprah and Dr. Phil, part Vince Lombardi and — given the number of scrapes his team gets in and his baseball lineage — part Leo Durocher.
…Said former big league player and manager and current television broadcaster Buck Martinez…, "It is a total cultural revolution because they’ve never had a culture of winning. That’s what he’s trying to do, and it’s absolutely appropriate."
"The culture here had to be changed," Maddon said. "If you go to a different country, you have to learn to eat different food. You have to learn a different language, different dress, different customs. We had to change all of that. Why did I think it was going to work? I don’t know. I just had a lot of confidence that everything I had thought about could work.
"More than anything else, I’m trying to get us to play the game the way it was played in 1920. I’m a traditionalist," Maddon said. "I want to play in the simplest way. I believe that. I think people are really reading it the wrong way. I want my defense to play catch. I want my pitchers to have command of the fastball first. I want my hitters to have a two-strike mentality.
Maddon believes in psychological construction as much as calisthenics. There was the time during spring training when the military’s traveling baseball team was on a furlough from Iraq and asked Maddon if it could take batting practice with the Rays. Maddon agreed, but went a step further: He asked the soldiers to talk to his team about Iraq, about life when life isn’t about losing a tough game and still earning more than 99 percent of the population, but actually is a game of life and death. After the soldiers, Maddon invited Dick Vitale and Tampa Bay Buccaneers defensive coordination Monte Kiffin to speak to his team.
by CardsWin on Oct 21, 2008 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
'cultural revolution' = ABSURDLY bad choice of words
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 22, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How have the Cardinals sustained a winning culture through all the ups and downs?
Though the Cardinals have the most successful franchise in the NL, as measured by World Series victories, there have been many periods over the last 50 years when the Cardinals had meager talent on the team. Yet the team’s winning culture over the last half century (and before) is reflected in another record of accomplishment that is unmatched in all of Major League Baseball, in one respect at least, as described by Rick Hummel:
From Rick Hummel, ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, 09/28/2008 (excerpts):
Throwing out the strike-shortened year of 1994, when there was no postseason, the Cardinals have not had two consecutive losing seasons in nearly 50 years….
No other team is even close to the Cardinals in the length of time between back-to-back losing (full) seasons.
In the National League, the closest for consistency is Los Angeles, which last had back-to-back losing seasons in 1986-87. Atlanta last had consecutive losing seasons in 1989-90 and Houston in 1990-91.
The Chicago White Sox are the somewhat surprising leaders in the American League. The Sox haven’t had consecutive losing seasons since 1988-89. The New York Yankees are next, last having back-to-back losers in 1991-92.
Perhaps one clue to how the Cardinals have maintained a winning culture for so long is reflected in this observation from Derrick Goold:
From Derrick Goold, St. Louis Post-Dispatch 10.07.2008:
“Every player in the Cardinals’ Organization since 1940 has had contact with George Kissell and they have all been better for it. … Well known for his emphasis on fundamentals, George taught several generations of Redbirds how to play baseball.”
George Kissel, Tony LaRussa, Jose Oquendo, and others on the Cardinal coaching staff seem to have been keys to the continuity in the Cardinal winning culture. Committed ownership also seems to be a vital factor, in the current ownership group and earlier under August Busch. And, of course, the fans seem to be a crucial factor in keeping the focus on “respecting the Game” and “playing the game the right way” and otherwise honoring and supporting sustained motivation and excellence in performance on the field, even among visiting teams and players.
by CardsWin on Oct 21, 2008 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Repeated loss can make a bunch expect defeat. - The Hardball Times
Teams can have losing cultures as well as winning cultures. The Cubs (media and fans at least) have the longest lasting culture of losing in MLB. Dreading defeat is the definitive value and tradition of that culture.
It was difficult to witness the pain on the faces of Cub fans and in the voice of announcer Ron Santo during the team’s shocking defeat in the NLDS (being swept by a Dodger team barely over the .500 mark in the regular season that mustered only one win against the Phillies). Here’s an article from The Hardball Times searching for the causes of the latest Cub failure….
The Corpse on the Dissecting Table
by Chris Jaffe of The Hardball Times
October 13, 2008
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/the-corpse-on-the-dissecting-table/
[Excerpts]
They Cubs have dropped 13 of their last 14 postseason series, but they’ve
never looked as utterly inept as the last two….
With repeated and unprecedented choke jobs, you have to wonder what the
heck is going on. From a perfectly sabermetric point of view, the last two
postseasons can be shrugged off as a quirk of sample size. To hell with the
perfectly sabermetric point of view. Again, it’s the process, not the
result, that sets off the alarm bells….
It’s unduly simplistic to claim a sole cause for the 2007-8 shortcomings,
but some underlying causes can be rooted out. A key one revolves around the
decisions and actions of the team’s manager, Lou Piniella….
Stonewall Jackson once noted that repeated victory will make an army invisible. He meant they’d have more faith in themselves, come to expect victory, and be willing to endure greater costs to achieve their goals than a less proven unit would.
The converse is also true. Repeated loss can make a bunch expect defeat. When the wheels start coming off, the result can be a ghastly sight….
by CardsWin on Oct 21, 2008 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was difficult to witness the pain on the faces of Cub fans and in the voice of announcer Ron Santo during the team’s shocking defeat in the NLDS (being swept by a Dodger team barely over the .500 mark in the regular season that mustered only one win against the Phillies).
If culture really does have an effect on whether a team wins or loses, then this should have come as no surprise at all. The Dodgers obviously have a much richer culture of winning than the Cubs do. If this really is the case, then the Cubs fans, players, and media should have known going into the divisional series that they didn’t stand a chance against a team with such a great “culture” despite the fact they were the best team in the NL this year.
Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time
by RunninRedbird on Oct 21, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then again, the Phillies have almost as much of a culture of losing as the Cubs do...
At least when measured in terms of wins and losses.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 22, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But they’ve actually won a World Series in the last century….But I’ll agree with you. Only team in the league with 10,000+ losses doesn’t say much for your “culture”
Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time
by RunninRedbird on Oct 22, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stonewall Jackson?
“Stonewall Jackson once noted that repeated victory will make an army invisible. He meant they’d have more faith in themselves, come to expect victory, and be willing to endure greater costs to achieve their goals than a less proven unit would.”
He was killed…by his own men…who were freaked out by seeing a guy riding right at them in the dark.
The Confederates LOST the war.
I don’t mean to start a socio-historical-politcal flame war here…but this is a crappy reference. I realize it is not yours, which makes it even more egregious.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 21, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
quick fix
Rather than cite the dry academic evidence objective, verifiable research, I will post the much more colorful and entertaining evidence subjective opinions that can be found in articles by baseball writers and reporterspeople who have a vested interest in meaningless and, at times, false narratives.
by azruavatar on Oct 21, 2008 5:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
That revision appears accurate to me
Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time
by RunninRedbird on Oct 21, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ding
But he’ll probably unveil a vague reference to a study that showed positive thinking was a factor in improved performance.
This is his new drum after he got tired of banging the Cesar Izturis was a good signing b/c he’s the same player as Brendan Ryan, but more expensive drum.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 21, 2008 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Gospel According to Az
Azruavatar, VEB main post, October 3 (excerpts):
The last bit of advice I have for the Cardinals could be more valuable than all the rest combined [WHERE IS YOUR OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE RESEARCH TO SUPPORT THIS ALLEGATION?] but has nothing to do with personnel decisions: Learn how to talk to the media and the fans. [SUBJECTIVE OPINION] The Cardinals… are borderline deceitful [SUBJECTIVE OPINION] when releasing information to the public about injuries. Far more harm comes from injuries like Ankiel’s that turn into something really bad than from letting other team’s “know” how desperate you may or may not be. [WHAT OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE RESEARCH SUPPORTS THIS HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE ALLEGATION?] The club winds up looking like they are lying to their fans or are totally incompetent. [SUBJECTIVE OPINION] The damage to the club-fan relationship is more important than another team knowing that Ankiel really is hurt. [SUBJECTIVE OPINION] Find a way to correct this problem. [GRANDIOSE PRESUMPTION OF AUTHORITY TO ADVISE ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FRANCHISES IN ALL OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS]
…send TLR/DD to a class or have them sit down with a politician. [SUBJECTIVE OPINION AND ARBITRARY PRESCRIPTION.] They need to find a way of either being straight without being condescending or sounding like they have a grudge. [WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THIS KIND OF SUBJECTIVE FACTOR MAKE? WHY BOTHER TO ADDRESS SOMETHING SO EPHEMERAL?] If they can’t do that let them learn how to say nothing but offering equivocations (the politician). I’d rather they speak their mind but doing so without throwing players under a bus or demeaning them are skills they obviously don’t have. Head back to PR 101 and figure out how to not start a s—tstorm every time you speak…. [HOW TOUCHY FEELY CAN YOU GET?!]
NOTE FROM CARDSWIN: Azruavatar, you might do well to think twice before you pose as the supreme arbiter of what is a “valid” opinion and what is not. Obviously you have a double standard in vetting the “subjective opinions” of others and their lack of “objective, verifiable research”, while you yourself freely spout your own personal editorials as glibly as if they were The Gospel According to Az….
by CardsWin on Oct 22, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't give a rats ass if you want to present it as opinion.
But you don’t. You say, “There is plenty of research evidence that every organization has a culture, and that culture has a significant, pervasive effect on the success of the organization.” and yet I’ve seen NO EVIDENCE. What you are quoting was my opinion of the club’s PR problems — something that I’ll readily admit is subjective. I don’t present it as fact.
The problem CARDSWIN is that you come here and try to blow smoke up everyone’s collective ass and then get pissy when people ask for proof of things you claim are factual. Do I really need to dig up the BS you posted about Izturis’ offense and how totally offbase it was? Not to mention this is the second time I’ve read the same crap. It got shot down in a different diary by people but what the hell, why not post it a second time.
I don’t act as the supreme arbiter of valid opinions. Plenty of people still want to acquire Peavy. I disagree with them. I’ve had discussions about it with them on here and no one gets there feathers ruffled quite the way you do.
by azruavatar on Oct 22, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So the Rays now have a winning culture?
Interesting. Maybe it is just that they have won? Maybe this is all circular logic? Outside of the Cubs, the teams that probably have the biggest reputations as long time losers are the Red Sox, Rays, and White Sox, and they have all experienced a good measure of success lately. Did they just have a sudden change of culture? Or did they just start winning game, and then playoff series?
I feel like I could say that the Cubs lose because they play too many day games, and that would be as strong an argument. The Rays don’t play as many day games and look at them – they are in the WS. The Red Sox don’t play as many either, and they have won a couple. In fact, everybody else plays fewer day games, and everybody else has won more titles. I rest my case – the Cubs lose because they play too many day games.
So Maddon lays into people that loaf. That’s good, but Lou Pinella tore Fukudome a new one several times this year. He’s put people in their place more than a few times. Whatever the Cubs problem is, it is not that Lou Pinella is too much of a softie. I am pretty confident in that.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 21, 2008 6:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ugly Uniforms
the Cubs lose because they have the ugliest uniforms in baseball.
Second ugliest? Astros! The only reason they got to a WS is because the GOB had to reward them for getting rid of the even uglier uniforms they had before.
The culture of losing was worth 2 fanposts? Wasn’t one enough?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 21, 2008 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The culture of losing was worth 2 fanposts? Wasn’t one enough?"
Good question.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 21, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was
thinking the same thing, but I refrained from responding first. I intend to ignore this drivel from here on. If we ignore it, maybe it’ll stop.
by spants on Oct 22, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good plan
I posted my 2-cents, and now I’m like TLR in game 4 of the 2005 NLCS…OUTTA HERE!!!
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 22, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only clicked on this post because I thought, "wow, that sure has been on the fan post side bar for a long time"
Then I discovered it was merely a copy and paste job re-stating what had already been stated a few weeks ago. My reaction? “WTF?”
by Ray Lankford on Oct 22, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear Lord
You cite Gerry Fraley…so do I. He thinks Frank Thomas and Ryan Howard aren’t that good, saying that Howard killed the lineup with strikeouts…mind you, this was right after he’d posted a .976 OPS…and that Thomas caused the Jays to have an “unsuitable” lineup…mind you, right after his release he went on to post a .916 OPS over about 150 PA’s, probably due to the fact that he’s a really good hitter in a funk, and those types of people usually rebound. He thought that after 2007 the Yankees should have unloaded A-Rod and Mariano Rivera. Good source, I’d say.
How did the Rays’ culture make Carlos Pena, B.J. Upton, Evan Longoria, Dioner Navarro, and Carl Crawford good at playing baseball? How did it make James Shields and Scott Kazmir good at throwing them? Maddon has been there for 3 years now. How come the Rays didn’t win earlier? Presumably, Maddon was still trying to put his culture in place over that time. Was it possibly because the Rays players developed into good players, and they bolstered their roster with guys like Pena (a career underachiever), Iwamura (a solid glove who posts decent OBPs), and Matt Garza (a guy they picked up b/c they dealt perhaps their most talented kid)? Is it that they were a better team skill-wise this season then in the past?
Why is it that you insist on carrying these arguments well beyond their terminus? We had this discussion not 3 weeks ago. It does no good to kick the same topics around again and again, and it pushes other topics off of the board. I respect your right to post this…however, that right does not exclude you from criticism.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 21, 2008 8:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is a culture of sorts that accompanies every ballclub.
I certainly do believe people like George Kissell and Red Schoendienst were carriers of a sort of “Cardinal way.” But I don’t think the culture extends much beyond spring training, preparation and perhaps some managerial expectations. The culture of, say, the University of Michigan football team—as rich as any in the country—did not help it last week when the Illini pasted them on their own turf. It didn’t help the Yankees or the Red Sox (enough) this year, etc.
Yes, I think players can play up to expectations sometimes. But I think the effect is marginal most of the time. Sportswriters are quite good at misattributing cause and effect and drawing inferences from ridiculously small sample sizes. I don’t think we really need to do that at VEB. There are enough supportable theses to present without advancing nebulous theories to explain what is nothing more than a largely well-run and supported franchise.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 22, 2008 2:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cards Develeopment in Minor Leagues
Memphis finally broke a string of losing seasons with a 75-67 mark in 2008. Despite all the losing seasons the AAA Redbirds have had, a ton of Memphis guys have gone to St. Louis to contribute. Ryan Ludwick, Adam Wainwright, Yadier Molina, Skip Schumacher, and Rick Ankiel start the list. At the end of 2000, when the Redbirds won the PCL, they had some guy named Pujols. Maybe, Memphis can finally get back to the playoffs in 2009 with players like Brett Wallace coming up from Springfield.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Oct 22, 2008 8:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Develeopment=Development
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Oct 22, 2008 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Culture doesn't count?
Every team and every organization has a culture.
But a lot of you guys seem to believe that culture has no effect whatsoever on winning or losing. Your dogma seems to be that you can quantify talent with statistical data, so talent is the only factor that counts in winning and losing; or at least that anything that cannot be quantified isn’t worthy of being consider a factor at all.
Evidently, then, you presume that the Rays went from worst to best in one year entirely on the basis of talent. Right… Your presumption must be that the Rays had a massive, sudden influx of new talent or an astounding rise in the skill curve for existing players. Right…. Likewise, the Tigers had the best talent in the AL last year, virtually every baseball analyst agreed, yet they got off to a miserable start and finished out of the running. I guess their players just lost their talent all of a sudden. That would be your presumption no doubt. Right….
Hey, it’s not my problem if you don’t get it. The manager of the World Series team for the AL and those around him definitely get it.
“The culture here had to be changed,” Maddon said.
I trust his judgment in the matter far more than I trust the judgment of you who sit on the sidelines with your blind faith that the only thing that counts in team performance is what YOU count….
by CardsWin on Oct 22, 2008 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're not even internally consistent with your definition of culture, CardsWin
It “persist[s] for a long time, changing much more slowly than particular customs and symbols do,” but at the same time a team that’s never been within 21 games of .500, that’s finished out of last place only once, goes from last to first and improves by 31 games in a single season because of culture?
No one has claimed that the only possible explanation for the Rays’ success this year is talent, so you can quit beating on that strawman any time you’re ready. Obviously there are productive and non-productive attitudes by players and coaches that can help or hurt a team. But your particular framing of the “culture” argument is silly because you’re using the term so vaguely and subjectively that you could use it to explain almost anything.
by BTown Birds fan on Oct 22, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ding!
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 22, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I like that
And I have a strong hunch that if one tried to assign mathematical variables to “winning culture” and “losing culture” the best you would get is a GIGO analysis that looks like some PhD student in sociology’s thesis.
by Red in Chicago on Oct 22, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They give out PhD's in sociology.
I kid, I kid.
by azruavatar on Oct 22, 2008 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talent is subjective to potential
Yes, the Tigers were the most talented, but they didn’t live up to the potential of that talent this year; they underperformed. The Rays had potential talent in Upton, Longoria, and Price, and they have all lived up to it thus far. Rasmus has unbelievable amounts of talent, but he may or may not live up to the potential of that talent.
All of these posts you present are based off of ideas or perceptions that cannot be analyzed by any statistical measurment. There is no way to accurately measure a team’s level of “culture”. Because of that fact, there will always be people here who will take intangible ideas like culture into consideration, and then there are those who will brush it to the side. No matter how many posts you present on this subject those people, like myself, will always consider culture a secondary factor in the process of winning and losing. So PLEASE stop trying to convert all of us because it never going to happen.
Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time
by RunninRedbird on Oct 22, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CardsWin...
I will agree with you if you can explain just one thing to me. The Rays.
If culture makes a difference in winning and losing, why is it that a team with such a losing culture is in the World Series? If it is because they somehow changed their culture over the course of one year, doesn’t that disprove your whole argument? After all, if culture can be changed so quickly, then it obviously makes little difference in winning v losing. If Maddon said, "The culture here had to be changed," don’t you think he’s probably refering to the fact that the Rays have always been awful? Therefore, he wants them to start winning? This is a revolutionary idea! (Note the sarcasm) This doesn’t mean that he thinks the team’s losing culture has caused them to keep losing. It’s the fact that they just fielded some really bad teams until now. Their losing culture may have made it more acceptable to lose in the past, but it sure didn’t MAKE THEM LOSE. Just like now, if somehow a “culture” can be changed in one year, it’s not what’s making the Rays good. Just wait a few years until the Rays inevitably suck again with their low payroll, and see if you say that their new “winning culture” made a difference.
If you can explain where I’m wrong, I’ll agree that culture affects winning and losing. I kind of doubt you will but I’m happy to be surprised.
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 23, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a fascinating discussion here
Rather than cite the dry academic evidence, I will post the much more colorful and entertaining evidence that can be found in articles by baseball writers and reporters.
I didn’t know you could scoop a pile of turds out of the grass and call them “evidence.” College would have been a lot easier if I’d known that!
by jdub176 on Oct 23, 2008 1:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe one of the presidential candidates should try that
“Rather than cite the dry academic evidence to support my opinion on the economy, here is what this dude from the Wall Street Journal said. It must be true! Vote for me!”
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 23, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
have you been following the Presidential contest? They aren’t exactly rarin’ to get into technical wonky conversations about the economy.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 23, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true
didn’t even think about that. haha
Is it fraud when Cubs ownership says "this year is our year?" Can somebody sue for that?
by thegodfather on Oct 23, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs




















