Middle of the road
The worst kept secret in the Midwest this offseason is that the Cards need to make some changes to their middle infield. We know well of Adam Kennedy’s strange, yet fortuitous, demand to be traded. We know that Cesar Izturis and Felipe Lopez are free agents. And we know that Tony loves Aaron Miles (and, oh, btw, he’s arbitration eligible.) The Cards also have Brendan Ryan on hand, who will probably end up as a utility infielder in Memphis.
In trying to sort through the detritus that is our middle infield situation, it’s reasonable to wonder which of these MIFs should be back and which should be allowed to be on their merry way. Tony seemed to have no discernible pattern, for most of the year anyway, with his starters at the keystone and short. Izturis played almost every day – presumably b/c of his outstanding defense. I guess I shouldn’t use the word "presumably" since his offense was so horrendous that it absolutely MUST have been b/c of his defense. At second, Miles got much more playing time than Kennedy. There’s a certain strangeness to this b/c Kennedy was, by far, the better defensive player. It would have been understandable to play the better defensive player at each position w/ the idea that, since they offer very little offensively, you should save as many runs as possible on the defensive end. Yet Miles got considerably more playing time at 2nd for most of the year.
So, ok, you go w/ Miles at 2nd most of the time to compensate for the fact that you’re getting nothing offensively from your SS – at least you’ll get some offense at one of the two positions. And, as critical as I’ve been of Miles, he did have the best offensive season of his career -- highest OBP, highest slugging %, highest OBP and OBP+ (by far), and the highest isolated power of his career. He struck me, for most of the season, as the Cards best middle infielder largely b/c of his defense. It was my belief that Kennedy and Izturis offered less of a difference defensively than Miles offered offensively.
If Miles was, in fact, better than the other 2, and worthy of so much playing time, then where was he after the club’s acquisition of Felipe Lopez? Lopez played his first game w/ the birds on the bat on August 6. As a Cardinal he had 169 PAs in those 7 weeks. In that same time period, Aaron Miles had 107. Cesar Izturis had 153 PAs following Lopez’s arrival. The oddity of these numbers lie in the idea that Lopez arrived w/ the pedigree of a horrendous defensive player. No one’s playing time suffered more than Miles’ after Lopez’s arrival. Lopez’s offense was great as a Cardinal, but don’t you give back any gains w/ his defense? And, if his defense doesn’t matter, why not sit Izturis and his feckless offense and play Miles at SS. Yes, Miles is not a good SS, but Lopez isn’t a good 2B so, if Tony made the decision to go w/ offense over defense – as reasonable a decision as choosing defense over offense if the defense is really good – why is he still sticking Izturis at SS? There seemed to be no consistency or pattern to it. The one thing we could say for certain is that Tony, and likely Mozeliak, wanted to see what Lopez had to offer in light of the fact that he was a free agent this offseason.
Deep down, if I was going to rank the Cards’ middle infielders in terms of their value to the club this year, I would go w: 1. Miles; 2. Lopez; 3. Izturis; 4. Kennedy; 5. Ryan. If you want to compare their values throughout the year, including Lopez’s time w/ the Nationals (where he created a new definition for the term "awful"), he’d probably be between Kennedy and Ryan. If you get released by the Nationals, you’re plenty bad! Let’s see how right I am!
| BRAA | fielding +/- | FRAA | TRAA | RAA per 560 PAs | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Izturis | -12 | +19 | 14 | 2 | 2.5 |
| Kennedy | -5 | +19 | 14 | 9 | 13.8 |
| Lopez | -2 | -12 | -9 | -11 | -11.6 |
| Miles | 2 | +6 | 4.5 | 6.5 | 8.9 |
| Ryan | -9 | +1 | 1 | -8 | -20.5 |
BRAA is batting runs above average, as compiled by Baseball Prospectus. +/- is John Dewan’s fielding plays above average and the FRAA, fielding runs above average, is based on their +/-. Then there’s what I call total runs above average and the total runs normalized for 560 PAs. Many, if not most of you won’t believe this, but Adam Kennedy was our BEST middle infielder last year, not our worst (Ryan excepted). His defense at the keystone was that good. Now, his offense was atrocious, but better than Izturis’ and his defense was also better than Izturis’. Miles was solid, and even above average defensively, but he didn’t add enough offensively to keep up w/ what Kennedy brought defensively. Lopez was bad, b/c of his numbers w/ the Nats, despite the fact that his defensive numbers were the best of his last 3 years. Make no mistake, Felipe Lopez is exactly THAT BAD defensively. Ryan sucked.
If you’d rather use BP’s fielding numbers, Miles would be 1, followed by Kennedy, and then Izturis, Lopez, and Ryan. Still, the idea that Kennedy would be one of our best (should I say "least bad?") middle infielders instead of one of our worst would have surprised me a great deal. That doesn’t mean, of course, that he was good. He wasn’t. But I think it does tell us exactly how bad Izturis truly was. If you like him for his defense, you should like Kennedy better b/c Kennedy added as much in fewer innings, and hurt us less at the plate, in fewer PAs, than Izturis.
As for next year, it’s pretty clear to me that Miles will be back and that Kennedy probably won’t. I’d bet that Lopez is back as well. Can we get by w/ some sort of Lopez/Miles combo at 2nd? It could be worse, I guess. The question then becomes which one of them is our backup SS? AZ made the point pretty eloquently last week that it was foolish to keep 4 middle infielders on the roster. Astoundingly, Miles is actually the better SS, which tells you something about Lopez’s defense. The other thing I see is that acquiring a SS should be a higher priority than acquiring a 2B. Yes, Brian Roberts would be nice to have, but SS is clearly the bigger area of need.
So, who may be available?
| BRAA | fielding +/- | FRAA | TRAA | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cabrera | -5 | +1 | .7 | -4.3 |
| B. Crosby | -17 | -13 | -9.8 | -26.8 |
| Furcal ‘07 | -9 | +6 | 4.5 | -4.5 |
| Renteria | -7 | -9 | -6.7 | -13.7 |
| Tulowitzki | -7 | +4 | 3 | -4 |
| Zobrist | 9 | -6 | -4.5 | 4.5 |
I went ahead and used Furcal from ’07 due to a paucity of playing time last season and, b/c Tulowitzki played 101 games last season, I used it instead of ’07. I think we can probably all agree that both are better than the numbers shown above. Tulowitzki was the best defensive SS in the big leagues in ’07 and Furcal has only had 1 bad offensive year in his career – in ’07. Both, as you can see, are above average defensive players. It’s a good question as to whether Furcal will remain so as he ages and considering his back problems but, based on the data we have, he’s still better than most.
As you can see, Crosby, Renteria, and Cabrera should, absolutely, be non-starters. The latter 2 are aging free agents. We should not go there. Crosby would require us to give up something of value. Thank you, no, Billy! There are some others we could consider – the Angels’ Erick Aybar, Brandon Wood or Sean Rodriguez, for example. Tulowitzki is definitely worth having. Is he worth trading what it would cost to get him? I’m not sure about that. I’d trade Ludwick for him, but I doubt that the Rocks would do that trade, even if we threw in Anderson, Jay, or Mortensen.
We could sign Furcal, who’s price tag may be rising w/ every PA he takes this postseason. He’ll cost a pretty penny, and he’s 31 (or will be in 2 weeks) but he’s a plus player offensively AND defensively. It’s not easy to find SS’s like that, and we wouldn’t have to trade for him. He is definitely a player to consider.
My choice, however, is Ben Zobrist of the Rays. He’s blocked in Tampa, now by Bartlett and soon when Reid Brignac is ready. He has 530 major league PAs and would be under the team’s control for 5 years. He was a plus player offensively this year and played 6 different positions for the Rays. He doesn’t seem to be a strong defensive player – he’s been -5, -7, and -8 at SS in his 3 partial seasons in the big leagues but his offense seems to be strong enough to overcome the defense. FWIW, he would have been in the middle of the pack in the AL, according to RZR. Since he’s blocked, there’s no reason the Rays won’t trade him, if we can find a sufficient match.
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agree
i’m of the same mind here re kennedy. i can only conclude that he really was more injured than we thought his first year. this year, however, he was just about what i assume they expected from him when they signed him-good defense and mediocre offense with a little xbh component thrown in for good measure. he’s a little expensive in this contract year for what he brings, but paying him to play elsewhere makes little economic sense. i’d rather see those $ go toward a ss. i also agree that zobrist is a really good solution (not sure what the rays need from us though). we’d have to trade for him, but if we signed furcal, etc., we’d give up picks. no free lunch, but we can tolerate a kennedy/miles (miles in 09 is a given i believe) at second with a competent ss. this proposal also saves a few bucks that could go toward pitching, even one of the FA relievers, fuentes and marte may cost too much, but ohman or the like coupled with even rv or flo (if healthy) might do the trick. lots for mo to wrestle with.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Oct 11, 2008 9:50 AM EDT 0 recs
furcal will be type B
probably and therefore we wouldn’t have to give up any picks
by eglasier on
Oct 11, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
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oh, that is sweet
I dont know much about zobrist. WOuld be make as much of an offensive impact as Furcal?
What type of hitter is he? Is he a leadoff or #2 hitter or would be be a #7, #9 hitter for us?
What does he bring to the table? Does he have any outstanding skills for the position?
Like pop or speed, or is he kind of just a guy?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Oct 11, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
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Zobrist had exceptional walk rates in the minors
this season he went on a power binge but that’s probably not going to be his long term calling card. If he’s going to stick in the majors you’d hope for a .270/.350/,400 type player who is just average defensively. He’s not very fast but has fringe-average range with good hands.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 3:00 PM EDT
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FWIW
Justin Inaz did some player value calculations and here were his rankings:
Kennedy 18.2
Izturis 20.2
Miles 11.8
Ryan -0.5
Lopez 8.5 (-10 w/ WAS and 18.5 with STL)
As someone who acknowledges defense is undervalued, even I have a hard time reconciling myself to these numbers. These include a positional adjustment that HC’s don’t which accounts for some of the differences. Still, my two least favorite middle infielders this year may have been the two best.
by azruavatar on Oct 11, 2008 9:51 AM EDT 0 recs
A quick explanation
Justin calculates these based on linear weights for offense and RZR for defense w/ Ton Tango’s positional adjustments.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 9:52 AM EDT
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Pretty revealing
that, even with his white hot offensive numbers in StL, Lopez is about the same player as Kennedy. If you average the WAS and StL numbers he is worse than Miles as well.
I think Inaz’ rankings look pretty solid. I wish many of the posters here would compare Mark Ellis’ (30+)numbers with the overrated Orlando Hudson (12ish).
Pretty surprising to see Ankiel and Glaus as both negative defenders, though.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Oct 11, 2008 10:36 AM EDT
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They're probably solid explanations for what a player did.
but they aren’t necessarily predictive tools. They hand out runs (or partial runs) for events (singles, HRs, walks, Ks, etc.) that may or may not be talent based or lucky.
As far as the defensive component, RZR is a great in-season tool because it’s readily available and updated on a daily basis but, imo, it’s a step behind UZR, PMR and the +/- systems. Also, to have the same degree of correlation for 1 season of offensive stats, you need 2 seasons of defensive stats. There’s still a lot of noise in defensive metrics.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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justin also credits "the hardball times" as his source which data was pulled from, BEFORE he tweeks it.
THT also does win shares, and they completly disagree with justins calculations on ellis having a better total value than hudson in 2008.
win shares……batting……fielding…..WSP…..WSAB
hudson…………..10.9……….5.2……..636……….7
ellis………………..7.9………..4.9……..479……….3
how justins gets ellis at 30.3 and hudson at 12.9 is by his defensive calculations showing ellis as a +17.7 fielding and hudson at -5.6…………hudson did have 5 more errors than ellis on the season.
but is a 5 error difference enough to offset the differences in OPS (.694 ellis, .817 hudson) and wind up showing ellis having over double the total value of hudson at the same position ? maybe justins right, or maybe he still has a few bugs to work out.
by ball in play on
Oct 11, 2008 11:26 PM EDT
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I need some help here
as I don’t get how fielding win shares can be so different from RZR. If you go to THT and query all the qualified 2Bs in most league the top fielding 2B is Mark Ellis and Orlando Hudson is the worst. Ellis’ RZR of .897 is more than a hundred points higher than Hudson’s .784 and it isn’t like Hudson makes it up with OOZ as Ellis successfully fielded a total of balls that exceeds the total number in his zone, while Hudson is -32. This is a little more noise than I can be comfortable with.
Also, if win shares is park adjusted then it seems that the delta for batting is larger than it ought to be. Of course, Ellis was absolutely horrible at McAfee with a .189/.291/.318/.609 slash line. Conversely, while hitting at the 2nd best hitters park in MLB according to espn’s 2008 park factors Hudson put up pretty ridiculous lines of .326/.403/.536/.939. However, if you compare road numbers, and I realize they play in different leagues, Ellis’ .282/.355/.435/.790 is superior to Hudson’s .288/.337/.381/.718.
If anyone can add any insight here I would be most appreciative. I haven’t seen Ellis play much, but from what I have seen of Hudson it is pretty easy to believe he would be near the bottom defensively among NL 2Bs.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Oct 12, 2008 1:15 AM EDT
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Johnny Mo.......
should make a video blog of his offseason exploits in trying to shore p the pen, make roster moves in the farm, and try to find anything that can provide worth at the middle infield. I think it would be fascinating. Plus, he could call it MIF Hunter.
"You cannot fully understand the relations of choice and time until you are beyond both."
-cs lewis
by Crentist on Oct 11, 2008 10:38 AM EDT 0 recs
Is there anybody in the "system"
that can provide improvement in MI? Is Brian Barden (.770 OPS in Memphis) or Jarrett Hoffpauir (.735 OPS with the Redbirds) legitimate candidates next season, or must the Cards look elsewhere?
Admittedly, I dunno… what’chy’all think?
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Oct 11, 2008 11:24 AM EDT 0 recs
I don't think you want either of those guys as your starting SS
and in that sense they just get lumped in with all the mediocre 2nd basemen on the team. So, to find a SS, yeah you gotta look outside since Tyler Green is the closest we have to a “prospect” SS who’s close and he’s not been very good.
Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
by Tackle Box on
Oct 11, 2008 11:53 AM EDT
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I still have some hope that Hoffpauir can turn into another version of Aaron Miles.
When you can have a player like that for “free” it’s often worth it.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 1:20 PM EDT
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it would have been nice to get a look at them
at the end of the season, you know, to like see if they might be something
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Oct 11, 2008 3:51 PM EDT
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I agree that
middle infield has to be the main focus for the off season. I will be disappointed if pitching is assigned the higher priority. I also agree that Furcal may be worth ponying up a bundle for. It would solve our leadoff problem, make our lineup generally stronger and allow us to settle for Miles at second. The added offense might also allow us to take a chance on bringing up Colby rather than depending on Schu for the leadoff spot. If we don’t get Furcal though the choices get really murky and I would opt for shooting for an offensive 2b and resigning Cesar. With our pitching staff we can’t afford to be defensively weak up the middle. Cesar, actually, did everything we could have asked of him early on and late in the season. He is one of those players, though, who just doesn’t respond well to injury and he goes into the tank offesively when playing hurt.. He’s no Ted Williams the rest of the time but he did put up a respectable oba, threw in some steals and played great defense when he was totally healthy.
by easy on Oct 11, 2008 11:44 AM EDT 0 recs
They will need to see about Furcal before doing anything else
I think. Simply because he would be the leadoff. If you get him, then Schumaker becomes the odd man out in the outfield and gets tossed into a trade for someone else, perhaps. The money is also a big driver as to what else from the club’s shopping list it can afford.
Question, though: Looking at these numbers, are the other teams’ middle infields that much better than ours on a plus/minus scale? Could the double-leadoff be exaggerating the impact of having two lousy hitters at second and short?
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
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im telling ya
How good would a mid season lineup of
Furcal
Rasmus
Pujols
Ludwick
Glaus
Ankiel
Molina
Waino
Lopez/Miles
look?
To me it looks pretty solid all the way around, at least after the last couple of years.
Yeah, I know dont get my hopes up
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Oct 11, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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why?
I’m not being argumentative, but can you explain why Shumaker the odd man out? I’m not following that logic. Even when Colby makes it up to the big leagues he is not going to be an everyday starter (I think TLR has made that clear). Unless he is just on fire and pushes his way in like Ludwick did this past season I see him as the 4th OF (assuming no trades have been made)
If the Cards can sign Furcal for SS and leadoff hitter – then they sign Lopez for 2B and Miles as Utility, and keep the OF intact. Schumaker hits 9th – which is not a bad thing at all. Colby would more than likely hit 9th or 7th when he plays – with the occational rotation into the 2 hole like everybody else.
Any of Shu, Ankiel, or Ludwick might get traded for sure, but none of them need to be – even after Rasmus gets called up.
by Knighttime on
Oct 11, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
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If Rasmus is on the club
then that’s three lefthanders in the outfield. How does Schumaker get playing time? You can platoon him with Ludwick, but why would take at bats away from the No. 2 slugger in the major leagues to give them to Schumaker? You could platoon him with Barton, but Barton can’t play right, and you don’t want Schumaker playing center with Rasmus and Ankiel available. You could platoon him with Mather, but is Mathermaker a better player than Ludwick, Rasmus or Ankiel at ANY position?
No. Look, I like Schumaker. But the fact is that he cannot hit lefties; he has to be platooned. So unless we carry three bench outfielders (a possibility, I suppose), he has no firm role on the team.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 3:26 PM EDT
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OK, I follow that
Can Colby hit LH pitching? I do not know what he’s done in the minors – and the question will remain until he get the opportunity at the major league level.
Actually I am basing my assumption that Rasmus opens the season in Memphis while the Cardinals open with Schumaker, Ankiel, and Ludwick as starters with Barton and Mather on the bench.
The way I see it is Schumaker/Barton or Mather platoon in LF, Ainkiel in CF, Ludwick in RF. Wen Colby gets called up then it creates a LH hitting glut since Shumaker has to platoon – unless he gets called up due to an Ankiel injury.
That creates a need for a utility man who can play 3B, 1B and the corner OF spots – much like Scott Spezio. I’m not sure who that guy is, or if it might be Freeze (I hope it’s not Lopez/Miles) – but I certainly see how a player like that could help the team when we need to have a all RH outfield.
Not considering his possible career ending injury I see Ramus making Chris Duncan the odd man out – but maybe that is wishful thinking on my part.
by Knighttime on
Oct 11, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
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One more thought
In thinking about this further, Schumaker and Barton (or Mather) could be the outfield bench. But he’s just not going to be an everyday or every other day player unless someone is injured. I would rather monetize him in exchange for help elsewhere on the team.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
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Lopez and Miles
I agree with HC that we’re likely to see Lopez (who seems to have tickled TLR’s fancy for a dull utility knife) and Miles (who seems to have tickled TLR’s fancy for a tough and gritty player who makes drops of OJ out of orange peels). But, why? They seem to be duplicative in the way that four fearsome foursome was this season. Surely, there is a better option out there for back-up utlity IF than Lopez. (Yes, I sadly realize he’ll be playing a lot of OF, too.)
How many years will Furcal command? Four? Five? Could he shift over to second in the third or fourth year when his range is reduced by age?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 11, 2008 12:30 PM EDT 0 recs
goold thought 2 years with a option
its in the comments below the article
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on
Oct 11, 2008 1:05 PM EDT
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That's not at all what i would have guessed.
I would have thought 4 years w/ an option. 2 w/ an option would be great.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
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Goold also says
“It’s also possible that the market pushes his price higher.”
Furcal signed a 3yr $39M deal with the Dodgers, and I personally think that is probably what he will get again. Still, at 3yr $39M I’d be in favor of seeing him in a cardinal uniform.
by Knighttime on
Oct 11, 2008 4:26 PM EDT
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other targets
i made a comment in the hot stove post about some other targets.
i think peralta, lillibridge, and possibly lowrie are also attainable. i say possibly on lowrie because he might have found a place on that team this season.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Oct 11, 2008 1:10 PM EDT 0 recs
The way Lowrie is playing
I can’t see the BoSox letting him go.
by nmstar on
Oct 11, 2008 9:57 PM EDT
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very true.
BOS may just eat lugo’s 18 mil over next 2 yrs as the utility infielder. with a team budget like theirs, they could keep their shortstop lowrie and the burden contract of lugo’s.
bartlett will be arb eligible this offseason. he may be easier to trade for than zobrist.
really, we’re just speculating :) but it’s fun.
by ball in play on
Oct 12, 2008 12:00 AM EDT
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About Miles and Kennedy
This post is a good reminder never to always let numbers speak for the value of a player. I’ve been dogging Kennedy all year, but his EQA isn’t all that bad for a second basement, .252. Of course, his .596 OPS versus lefties is a serious detraction from his overall offensive line, but he deserved to start against RHP and be a late-inning replacement this year.
BTW, I nominate Aaron Miles to the 2009 regress-to-career-mean team.
"Never judge a taco by its price" - Dr. Gonzo
by KennyWang on Oct 11, 2008 1:27 PM EDT 0 recs
BTW
That “never” should be stricken from my post
"Never judge a taco by its price" - Dr. Gonzo
by KennyWang on Oct 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT 0 recs
so numbers should always speak for the value of the player?
or am I still confused?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Oct 11, 2008 3:54 PM EDT
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I think that's what he was trying to say
Personally, I think his comment made more sense before he said he should strike the word “never”.
Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
by Tackle Box on
Oct 11, 2008 4:00 PM EDT
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one ray of hope with Lopez
when we picked him up, he was a (-16) on defense at 2B. So over his time with the cardinals, he was apparently a (+4). That’s not what my eyes told me, though, and +/- doesn’t do anything to account for GIDP’s not turned, which Lopez had at least a couple of. So I dunno.
I studied this a couple of weeks ago, and basically concluded that Lopez would need to have an OBP-heavy .860ish OPS to be as valuable as adam kennedy with his defensive awfulness included.
the enemy's gate is down.
by SleepyCA on Oct 11, 2008 2:14 PM EDT 0 recs
lowrie over zobrist for me.
BOS is committed to lugo for another 18 mil, next 2 yrs. i’d use freese, craig or anderson as future replacements for lowell or varitek in trade talks. if ryan got included, i wouldn’t mind.
if they insisted on freese, i’d pull the trigger. call craig and mather the backup plan to glaus walking, while i tried to acquire d’antona from ARI (3B / C).
i have no problem with resigning izturis again affordably. none. if we can’t fix the ss position with at least a 5 yr commitment, i’ll take izturis over furcal, and spend the remaining furcal $ after resigning izturis, on arms.
furcal $ will be close to pujols $ in 2009, based on 35 games started in 08 and some high exposure in the postseason. pass on furcal.
by ball in play on Oct 11, 2008 2:31 PM EDT 0 recs
wallace
i think wallace is our #1 backup plan for glaus .. with freese and craig being behind him
by Glowsticks on
Oct 11, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
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In 2010, sure.
But Wallace won’t be in Cardinal red in 2009.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 3:29 PM EDT
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don't get ahead of yourself on that
he won’t start the year in Cardinal red, but if his bat is advanced as everyone thinks it is, he could taste the big leagues next year
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Oct 11, 2008 3:55 PM EDT
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Wallace will not be in STL
unless they are sure he can catch a ball. Bat or no bat.
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 7:20 PM EDT
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That never held back Duncan.
Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
by Tackle Box on
Oct 12, 2008 12:49 AM EDT
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completly forgot about wallace
by ball in play on
Oct 11, 2008 6:59 PM EDT
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Brandon Wood? Yes, please!
Zobrist would be good too but my only concern with him is that he is already 28 (or will be for next season) and SS over 30 scare me so he could start his decline while Wood is still a few years from his prime and Z’s MLB #‘s haven’t been that good to start with. As a stop gap he should be fine and maybe Kozma will have it all put together by 2011.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Oct 11, 2008 3:03 PM EDT 0 recs
so, maybe this is just a typo or something...
but what is the rationale for saying kennedy’s offense and defense are better than izturis? aren’t +/- and FRAA exactly the same for them in that table?
and also, i assume TRAA is just BRAA + FRAA?
despite my curiosity about furcal recently i come away from this still more intrigued by the zobrist/peralta/k. johnson type young guys. basically my wish this year is for a younger legit middle infielder who won’t start to cost a fortune right around the time he falls off a cliff production-wise. obviously this is the most i could possibly ask for a modest proposal.
by mattybobo on Oct 11, 2008 3:13 PM EDT 0 recs
+/- is the number of plays that a player makes
HC is converting it to a run metric (every play worth .7 runs) and then TRAA = BRAA (offense) + FRAA (defense).
by azruavatar on
Oct 11, 2008 7:22 PM EDT
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This may not be a crowd pleaser but....
I like Lopez for his bat and yes I think Oquendo can coach him up. Look at Glaus.
For SS I like Izturis his glove is solid and I think he started coming around at the plate near the end of the year.
Izturis is a steal and so is Lopez. Between the two I feel we will get above averag defense and offense.
This saves money for a closer or starter.
Plug Rasmus in for schumacher with schu and barton on the bench and your ready to go.
In my mind I could care less about any position other than closer because had we a closer we would be in the playoffs now.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on Oct 11, 2008 3:55 PM EDT 0 recs
I guess this reasoning escapes me...
Why settle for below average players at important positions like SS and 2B and spend money on overrated places like the bullpen? And we are not going to find a better pitcher than we already have for the type of money we are going to spend. If you get cheap controlled players that are good in the MIF and you have extra money THEN u can spend it on some relievers but even then you are just throwing it away.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Oct 11, 2008 4:47 PM EDT
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Just a little perspective
the MIF will combine to play in approx 2600 innings while the ENTIRE bullpen will throw in <500. So why skimp on the positions that have the most chances to have an impact on the game?
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Oct 11, 2008 4:56 PM EDT
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look at PA
the middle infield will have 1000-1200 plate appearances and the bull pen will need to get 1500 outs. They are of the same importance in that perspective.
by djsmokyc on
Oct 11, 2008 5:33 PM EDT
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if the MIF didn't have 2 of the 3
most important defensive posistions too it would give you more credibility…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Oct 11, 2008 7:19 PM EDT
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I agree with you
And I’d add that what pushes it over the top to me is the lack of MI alternatives we have internally. Particularly if you look beyond one year. So we go flea market shopping for infielders in 09….then that means we are guaranteed to have to do it again in 2010. Probably again in 2011.
Perez, or Motte, or McClellan, or whoever may not be able to handle high stress spots in 09, but I’d think somebody could. And I’d be even more confident that someone could going into 2010 and beyond. So why use a huge chunk of the cap space, and commit years, to an area that may only require short term solutions?
by Merry CRasmus on
Oct 11, 2008 5:06 PM EDT
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cap space
Just to clarify, I understand this isn’t the NFL. Just saying that the Cards are likely to spend something just north of 100 million.
by Merry CRasmus on
Oct 11, 2008 5:13 PM EDT
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Hey, maybe they will open up
DeWallet. They could go into pseudo-win-now mode: pay a couple of relievers top dollars and step on on the middle infield. Maybe even trade for another starter. It’s as good a year as any if Carpenter is healthy and Rasmus makes the big club.
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
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Two choices in my view
You can sign a FA SS and trade outfield surplus for a starter, or vice versa. Bullpen help is the 3rd priority – though you definitely need to find a lefty or 2.
As far as MI, I agree Lopez gets signed. I hope it is just for a 1 year deal, maybe an option for the second. I also agree they probably want to keep Miles around. So that means SS is needed much more than 2B. I’d like to get a SS that you can count on for a few years. Furcal is the one FA that I feel that comfortable about. If one can be had via trade, and is a little younger, that is ok too.
I don’t really want to give a big $ contract to a closer. It’s an area of need perhaps, but then again relievers are unpredictable. We just saw last year what can happen when you sign the “safer” choices… the veterans, to multiyear deals. In particular at the end of those deals. Is the solution, after going through what we did last year, really to spend big money for a more veteran bullpen help, for multiple years? I think we do need to get some bullpen arms in, but not wanting to spend a big chunk of the $’s there.
Put it this way, I think there is less chance of buyer’s remorse in year 3 of a Furcal contract, than in relievers. And the reason is because there is little chance we’ll be looking at someone in our system thinking they could do as good a job. There is a very real chance that will happen with any bullpen help we acquired to a multi year deal.
Taking the short view I can see where bullpen could be viewed as important as anything. But taking the long view – anything more than 1 year – I think it is not near as good an investment of $‘s. Reason is that there is little in the system to look to for MI help until 2011, most likely. Let’s say Furcal slips to an OPS+ around 80 in a few years….even then, do you think we’ll have something in our system that could do better and have the defense to stick at SS? Spend the most resources for SS, either by trade or by FA.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 11, 2008 4:58 PM EDT 0 recs
What about an aging starter as your closer?
Sign him to a one-year deal. Can Randy Johnson warm up quick? I say this only half in jest, as a fair number of pitchers have made the transition over time. Look at Smoltz, for example. Izzy used to be a starter, Wood, etc.
The problem with signing a pure FA closer is his presumed goal of a 3+ year deal. Any deal of that length blocks Chris Perez and might even demoralize him to the point of losing his edge
by Red in Chicago on
Oct 11, 2008 5:30 PM EDT
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We always have Reifer in a couple years
Who channels his hatred for the enemy into a 98 mph fastball.
by FlimtotheFlam on
Oct 11, 2008 6:00 PM EDT
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sarcastic comment coming...
Tom Gordon is having elbow surgery and Philly will not pick up his option. He sounds like a perfect 1yr closer for Dunc. 40yrs old, former closer, coming off surgery.
by Knighttime on
Oct 12, 2008 3:09 AM EDT
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+1
big money on a reliever is not a good idea. we have folks in the pipeline for that. what we don’t have is any mi help. i doubt, however, we will get a new 2b and ss and are pretty unlikely to get more than iz2 and floppy with miles in reserve. if we want to really compete, that combo will not likely be the ticket. we need hudson, furcal, ellis or the like at one of the 2 positions at a minimum. i mentioned zobrist above because he is likely to be affordable in players and could bridge to pete, niko, or even greene. if one of these guys makes a jump, zobrist would not be too big an investment. the traditional cardinal way of middling effort for middle infielders will leave us on the outside looking in again next year, no matter what rasmus does.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on
Oct 11, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
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