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alcs preview: tampa bay vs boston

if you're not already using SB Nation's postseason portal, you're really missing out. the affiliated blogs (Over the Monster, DRays Bay, The Good Phight, and True Blue LA) are all top-notch. simon says check them out.

this series features VEB’s adopted team, the tampa bay rays. in looking over their roster, i’m surprised at how few truly homegrown players they feature. what tampa has done is, in some ways, even more impressive than growing their own --- they’ve poached cheap young players from other organizations and knit them into a winning roster that feels homegrown:

posplayerhow acquiredageyrs to
fr. ag’cy
c d navarro

trade (dodgers) for m hendrickson

24 3
1b c pena free agent 30 2
2b a iwamura free agent 29 2
ss j bartlett trade (twins), partial for d young 28 3
3b e longoria homegrown 23 7
lf c crawford homegrown 27 2
cf b upton homegrown 24 4
rf g gross trade (mil) for j butler 28 3
dh c floyd free agent 35 1
sp1 j shields homegrown 26 6
sp2 s kazmir trade (mets) for v zambano 24 4
sp3 m garza trade (twins) for d young 24 5
sp4 a sonnanstine homegrown 25 5

if they want to, the rays will be able to run most of this same team out there in 2011. yet just 3 everyday players and 2 starting pitchers came up through the ranks w/ this franchise, and nearly the whole bullpen comes from outside the organization. i’m not counting some key role players, including rocco baldelli (who starts against left-handers) and ben zobrist; david price will probably be in next year’s rotation, and reid brignac may join the starting lineup at shortstop. so they’re becoming more homegrown, rather than less.

in that respect, tampa bay is aping (roughly) the model that made the kansas city royals so good back in the 1970s. the royals (for those of you who are old enough to recall) got good with other teams’ young players --- amos otis (snagged from the mets), john mayberry (astros), hal mcrae (reds), freddie patek (pirates), darrell porter (brewers) --- and then became a dynasty by rolling in homegrown players like george brett, frank white, willie wilson, and al cowens. beginning in the late 1970s, the royals churned out boatloads of mound talent --- dennis leonard, steve busby, paul splitorrf, rich gale, and dan quisenberry in the 1970s, then bret saberhagen, danny jackson, mark gubicza, et al all in the 1980s. the result: 15 winning seasons, 7 playoff appearances, 2 pennants, and a championship in their first 21 years of existence.

surprisingly, the red sox rely on homegrown talent at least as much as the rays do. they drafted and groomed four of their starters --- at 1b (youklis), 2b (pedroia), ss (lowrie), and cf (ellsbury) --- and acquired a fifth (varitek) from the seattle farm system; he has spent his entire big-league career in boston. they gave 60 starts to homegrown pitchers during the season this year, and the back end of their bullpen for the playoffs (masterson and papelbon) is completely homegrown.

the series is a battle of ballparks, as much as anything. tropicana field was the al’s 4th lowest-scoring park, with an average run total 5 percent lower than average; fenway was the league’s 3d-highest scoring, with an average run total 7 percent above the norm. so the essential questions might be: a) will the red sox offense (2d in the league) be able to score at the trop, and b) will the rays’ pitchers (2d in the league in run prevention) be able to put up zeros at the fens? during the regular season, the answer to question A was no: boston hit just .216 / .303 / .365 at the trop and scored 33 runs in 9 games, or 3.7 per game; the sox went 1-8 in those games. the answer to question B was also no: tampa bay pitchers gave up 6 runs a game in fenway and allowed the red sox to hit .289 / .388 / .452; the sox went 7-2 at home. the rays have 4 games at home, which yields a not-insignificant advantage, and i don’t think they will be intimidated by the red sox: they won both of the head-to-head series played in september, when the division title (and october home-field advantage) was still very much up for grabs.

shields, who will start game 5 (if nec) at fenway, lasted a total of just 4.2 innings in his 2 starts there this season and gave up 11 runs, almost singlehandedly losing both games; but the sox could hardly touch him at the trop, scoring just 2 runs against him in 15+ innings. kazmir was vulnerable in either location --- he only had one decent start in 4 tries vs the red sox this year. the only tampa starting pitcher who thrived at fenway this year was andy sonnanstine; sure enough, he’ll start game 4. if it comes down to game 7, matt garza will face jon lester; garza had a 4.50 era vs the red sox this year, while lester dominated the rays (3-0, 0.90).

the teams are closely matched on paper, but i’m gonna pick the red sox to win for two reasons. one, i think they have more dominant players; the rays have superb depth and balance, but you need game-changers in the postseason and i think the red sox have more of those. and second, the red sox have the better bullpen --- that alone could decide the series.

i’ll be rooting for the rays in my heart, but my head says the sox will win. let’s make it 7 games.

0 recs  |  Comment 26 comments

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I just wanna re-iterate

All the days off in these post season schedules drives me nuts.

by sdrone on Oct 10, 2008 9:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Average age

in the table is under 27. Wow. Only two players 30 or older. Have there been any other young playoff teams like this in recent memory (Twins? Marlins? As?).

We’re pulling for the home grown boys here in the Bull City

by ncgostl on Oct 10, 2008 9:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

looks nice doesn't it

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Oct 10, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really like the way the Sox have composed their team

and, b/c of that, I’m one of the few here who was pulling for them over the Angels. I’d like to see the Rays win here, though, but, like you, think the Sox will probably pull it off. I do think, however, that the Rays bullpen is a little underrated but I’d much rather have Papelbon closing them out — and pitching 2 innings when needed — than Dan Wheeler. Beckett also is probably a little bit of a concern, or should be, for the Sox though Lester has become a tremendous force in their rotation. It’s possible that the Rays’ great young pitchers, particularly if they get meaningful innings this series from Price, could win the series for them but if the Sox can pitch w/ the Rays, they’ll win it.

Either way, it’s so impressive to see 2 great teams made up of great young players. The ALCS should, as usual, probably be the World Series. The Sox get a bad rap for being like the Yankees — a team who spends tons of dough and outbids others for the top free agents. The facts, however, rarely support that. They did get Matsuzaka and Drew but they signed Beckett before he went on the market, got Ortiz after he was dumped by the Twins, and have filled their roster w/ good, young prospects. This is the best, largely-homegrown team in baseball. Though the Rays don’t have quite as many homegrown players, they have been very astute w/ some of their young acquisitions. The other thing is that their stars are largely homegrown — save Kazmir and Garza — and Garza was acquired for a homegrown player.

by chuckb on Oct 10, 2008 9:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i have been feeling this way recently about the red sox

i wasn’t rooting for them because i’ve become tired of them winning everything. but they are clearly awesome at putting a team together, and i have to at least admire that. they basically do it all—homegrown, free agents, generous budget, etc. etc. though the rays are all the more impressive because they have a very competitive team with great depth on a shoestring.

by mattybobo on Oct 10, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not the team that annoys me. It's the fans

I know at least a half dozen people here who are big-talking Sox fans. But NONE of them watched a single game of the ALSD, despite the fact that they were playing our hometown (sort of) Angels. I don’t expect everyone to love the sport as much as I do, but even fair-weather fans have to actually watch the games once in a while, right?

defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.

by effin fisk on Oct 10, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

And there’s a lot of new BoSox fans that have appeared in recent years—anyone who ever passed through Boston for a few years. I don’t begrudge the old fans who lived with them their whole life (I have a 50 year old friend in Maine I’m happy to see finally happy); it’s the guys who hopped on in 2004 that annoy me.

This may be blasphemy, but I think I could have rooted for the Cubs tthis postseason if it weren’t for the fact that their fans were already big-talking. It’s gotten quieter.

by ncgostl on Oct 10, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe they didn't have cable?

nah, they are probably just bad fans

go rays

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 10, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"but they signed Beckett before he went on the market,"

And remember they were able to do that because they had the resources to eat Lowell’s contract.

by sdrone on Oct 10, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Bay

Bay was acquired for Manny, who was another player they “had the resources” for

Boston also pours more money into scouting than anyone. That is smart, but it also made possible by their deep pockets.

They are certainly a model in many ways, but let’s not forget, at the end of the day they are still only outspent by one other team.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Oct 10, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i have to keep reminding myself lately that they are filthy rich

otherwise i might find myself in the sticky situation of being tempted to like the red sox. blech!

by mattybobo on Oct 10, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and the homegrown talent

to allow them to acquire him

by chuckb on Oct 10, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

Having deep pockets means you can staff the Caribbean with the most scouts, which they do, and spend the most on signing bonuses, which they do. Now, Hanley’s bouns was only $20,000, but the point is that they can hand out LOTS of those. For every Hanley there are surely dozens of guys who got $20,000 and went nowhere.

I’m not knocking the Sox, or anyone pointing out that they have a great system. I’m only noting that, as smart as they have been, they also have more resources to go and find and take chances on guys than most teams.

As HC has said, they are a model in many ways. (The team, NOT the fans!)

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Oct 10, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that

although I know nothing, really, about the fans. I don’t begrudge the fact that they spend a lot of money on scouting. I don’t know for a fact but I’d bet it’s more than most other teams do. I just think their farm system is overlooked by critics who focus on how high their payroll is. I hope that the Cards can soon be doing what they’re doing, if at a bit lower payroll.

by chuckb on Oct 10, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Side Note

Was I the only one who was annoyed to the point of distraction with Buck and McCarver ragging on Manny Ramirez? I get it. Manny is a bad guy. He’s a greedy man-child. His antics and trade have been one of the big storylines this season. I get it. But, the 2008 NLCS is being played. Can we focus on the game and the series rather than Manny? I eventually put the SNL special in the picture-in-picture and piped in its sound so that I wouldn’t have to listen to the FOX broadcasters any longer.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 10, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Joe Sheehan at BP

authored this yesterday, in anticipation of Tim’s bloviating about what a terrible guy Manny is. What he did to the clubhouse attendant was reprehensible, but the stuff about him not wanting to play or tanking it or whatever is completely fabricated.

by chuckb on Oct 10, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

100 games worth of stats tells you a lot about what kind of player a man is

A single at bat against The Great Rivals closer in which he takes three consecutive strikes as a f—-you gesture to management tells you a lot about what kind of man a player is.

Manny helped the Sox much, much more than he hurt them in 2008; they may not even make the playoffs without him. But Sheehan’s article does the Sox, and baseball, a great disservice by trying to justify behavior that should not be justified. Manny in effect threw a baseball game because he wanted to be traded. That is one of the worst things I’ve ever heard of a player doing, and I consider it a worse offense against baseball than anything barry bonds did. He really should have been banned from baseball after that, if it happened the way I understand it happening.

Of course, no one is going to pursue that- selig doesn’t have the balls, and Epstein has too much to lose. If the choice is “trade him for Jason bay, or lose him”, the red sox aren’t going to ask to have him banned from baseball. But in a perfect world, that’s what would have happened.

(and to prove that we do, indeed, root for laundry, i still wish he was playing LF for the cardinals in September)

the enemy's gate is down.

by SleepyCA on Oct 12, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for recalling how the 70's-80's Royals were built, LB...

I vividly remember those teams, and my favorite player was one Octavio Victor Rojas, which the historians among you may remember as “Cookie”…he put in six solid seasons for the Royals (hung around for a couple of others) and was a 4 time all star and a fine bridge for the franchise from the early expansion years until they were contending with the Bretts, Wilson and Leonards.

I also recall they started the “Royals Baseball Academy” in the early 70’s, which was quite an innovation in those days, and actually produced Frank White.

by tbell61 on Oct 10, 2008 11:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I remember Rojas

I had a baseball card of him from 1968. He wore glasses w/ coke bottle lenses. I liked him fine, but in my pre-adolescent eyes nobody compared to Julian Javier. Hoolie playing second base was a real thing of beauty.

by random on Oct 10, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kevin Youkilis

For some reason I thought he was drafted by the A’s. Is there any palpable reason why I would have thought this?

by stlfan on Oct 10, 2008 12:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Youkilis

I associate him with the A’s sometimes because he’s referred to as the Greek God of Walks in Moneyball which always makes me think of Billy Beane. Possible explanation…

by brafi on Oct 10, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe...

It could be that I associate the book “Moneyball” with the A’s…and Youkilis was mentioned. Good call.

by stlfan on Oct 10, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lewis went on and on

about how Billy Beane tried to acquire him from the Sox — how he tried to take this guy off the Sox’s hands. The Sox made a good decision to stand pat on that one.

by chuckb on Oct 10, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heard in passing on espn

Charlie Manuel’s mother passed away. Condolences to the family.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 10, 2008 1:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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