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Legitimately Mediocre

After the Matt Clement signing, Mozeliak declared that the starting rotation was "legitimate." That's a curious term to use considering two of the rotation's projected starting 5 are coming off surgeries and the 2 have thrown a combined 26 innings since the 2006 All-Star break! Another member of the rotation is coming off season-ending surgery and may not pitch at all in '08. Certainly the team can hardly count on Carp's contributions in '08 and the two leading contenders to fill in when a member of the rotation goes down combined for a 5.32 ERA in '07.

The rotation in '07 was hardly stellar either. Last season's numbers include the following:

IP/Start HR/9 BB/9 K/9
5.49 1.16 3.25 5.39

The IP/start were the 4th worst in the NL and the K/9 were the 2nd worst in the league. Only the BB/9 were respectable - finishing 9th in the NL - pretty much smack-dab in the middle of the league. Still, there's reason to think the Cards rotation might be slightly improved over last year. Wainwright and Looper will be entering their 2nd years as starters. The Cards will have Pineiro for the entire year. Yes, these are (or appear to be) actual improvements over last year's rotation that saw Kip Wells make 26 starts, Anthony Reyes - 20, Brad Thompson - 17, Todd Wellemeyer - 11, Mike Maroth - 7, and Randy Keisler - 3. That's 84 starts, folks. More than half of last year's starts were made by this distinguished group. Plus, Mark Mulder made 3 craptastic starts last August.

So, what can we expect from this year's group? Is it "legitimate?" Is it even better than last year's group?

I wanted to try to predict how this year's group might fare compared to last year's. Considering the fact that Mo is already lauding this year's group, and the fact that they've added their one veteran to the group, I'd be willing to bet that the '08 rotation is pretty well finalized. Sure, it's possible that a young-un such as Parisi, Boggs, Hawksworth, or Garcia might pitch his way onto the opening day roster, but I wouldn't bet on it. It's also possible that Mo may sign another veteran retread to a minor-league contract, but I doubt that as well. We won't be signing Kyle Lohse or Jeff Weaver (whew!) and we won't be trading for Joe Blanton, Johan Santana or Scott Kazmir. It's possible that Mo might find a taker for Anthony Reyes before the season starts but he's not going to play a prominent role in next year's rotation anyway. We're going to go w/ what we've got.

Since the peripherals of HR/9, BB/9 and K/9 are the best predictors of future performance, I decided to begin w/ those for the '08 starters. This was fairly easy to do w/ Wainwright and Looper as I simply used last year's. I considered using Wainwright's second half splits only since he was considerably better in all 3 stats in the 2nd half and it could portend his future numbers but I decided to be a little conservative. I don't expect this year's ERA to be 2.71 - `07's 2nd half ERA. He's a very good pitcher but I don't expect him to contend for the Cy Young - at least not so early in his career.

Pineiro was a little tougher. He pitched fairly well in his 11 start stint last summer but I hardly consider 63 2/3 innings a very good barometer of future performance, particularly when it contrasts so starkly with the previous 3 ½ years (593 IP). LB did some discussion of this, and Pineiro particularly here and came to the conclusion that, while pitching an entire season the way he did last year's 11 starts is probably unreasonable, there is some reason to think he might be better than his previous stint in the AL - due to switching leagues and some improvement under Dunc's watchful eye. In light of that, the stats I used for Pineiro are an average of last year's 63.2 IP in St. Louis and his previous 593 IP. It's a compromise, and one worthy of criticism, but it's probably closer to the truth than either of the two extremes, IMO.

Clement and Mulder are the most difficult to predict. For Mulder, I used his ZIPS projections, as LB did in the above post. They're not rosy, but I'm not especially sanguine on Mulder in '08 either. I just don't feel there's reason to be. As for Clement, his ZIPS projections aren't out yet so I went w/ the peripherals from his first full year in the league. The p-d article linked at the top acknowledges that Clement's control will likely not be there, at least to begin the season. It also questions his ability to throw 180 innings. Because he hasn't pitched in a year and a half, it seemed better to go w/ his K/9 from that year as opposed to one of his best or his career average and his HR/9 has always been pretty consistent. Considering that Busch seems to suppress homers and he's returning to the NL, I felt pretty good in going w/ his HR/9 from that year as well. It's not a perfect setup by any means, but I think we can all acknowledge that we have no idea what to expect from either pitcher this year. This is, of course, the main reason to question Mo's claim that the '08 rotation will be "legitimate."

We can't expect this group to take all 162 starts this year, particularly since the Cards have acknowledged that Mulder won't be able to go until May (at the earliest?). In any case, somebody(ies) will have to take some of the other starts. There is a large contingent available - as we might see some of the youngsters named at the top but the first crack will probably be given to either Brad Thompson or Anthony Reyes. Whoever it is, it's not going to be Johan Santana. It'll be some near-replacement-level pitcher. For the peripherals I've included below, I've named this pitcher Branthony Reympson. Very clever, huh? For this pitcher, I've combined Reyes' and Thompson's numbers as a starter from '07 to generate the peripherals.

HR/9 BB/9 K/9
Wainwright 0.58 3.12 6.06
Looper 1.13 2.62 4.47
Pineiro 1.39 2.29 5.60
Clement 0.92 4.28 6.75
Mulder 1.13 3.69 4.94
Reympson 1.25 3.16 4.83

I estimated that Wainwright, Looper, and Pineiro would make 32, 30, and 32 starts, respectively. That's the number that the first 2 made last year, and I just guessed w/ Pineiro. He's never had major arm surgery and the Cards don't have a lot of better options so I don't see any reason why he won't pitch the entire season. For Clement and Mulder, I estimated 25 starts each. I'll take some heat for that one, I'm sure. That leaves 18 starts for Reympson. I could take a few starts away from Mulder but the bottom line is that his numbers aren't that different from Reympson's so it really shouldn't matter that much. Clement's are a little better, despite the high BB/9, but I don't see a material difference here.

For IP, I went w/ Bill James' projections for the top 3. This gives a few extra IP to Wainwright and Looper over '07 to account for increased performance. This means 213 IP for Wainwright, 183 for Looper, and 173 for Pineiro. For Mulder, Clement and Reympson, I multiplied last year's average IP/start by the number of starts I expect them to make. As they'll all be around replacement level, they won't pitch deep into games. Clement will be a little better but his high BB/9 should mean short stints as well. This gives Mulder and Clement 137 IP each, and Reympson 99. Add `em up and it's 942 IP - an improvement of 53 IP over last year's rotation. Legitimate? It's above last year's NL average and would have ranked 6th in the NL. Perhaps the predictions for Wainwright and Looper are a little ambitious but I'd say the rest are pretty good. It certainly represents an improvement over the revolving door that was the '07 rotation.

As far as the peripherals go, there's improvement here as well.

IP/Start HR/9 BB/9 K/9
'07 numbers 5.49 1.16 3.25 5.39
'08 forecast 5.81 1.04 3.13 5.47

It's improved. I would argue that there's not tremendous improvement. In reality, we're probably talking about something on the order of 3 wins or so. That's better than a jab in the eye with a sharp stick but, when you consider that the Cards beat their Pythagorean record by 7 wins, it still leaves the Cards as a mediocre team at best.

Where's Carp, I hear people asking. What should we count Carp to produce in '08? If he does, indeed, return in August, we're looking at, what -- 10 starts at the most? He won't have pitched in almost 2 years. Do you expect him to be considerably better than Reympson? When Morris returned after major surgery he finished the year in the bullpen. Might we see Carp do that? Who knows? If he does return to the rotation and pitches better than Reympson, perhaps that's covered in the somewhat rosy projections (at least in terms of IP) for Wainwright and Looper? Whatever he pitches, I don't see him improving the rotation much in his few starts over what the others will produce in their 150.

Is it "legitimate?" There's only slight improvement among the other NL teams - moving the Cards up 1 spot in BB/9 and K/9 from where they were in '07. Mozeliak seems to think it's legitimate. Of course, he also thinks that Aaron Miles gives the Cardinals "added flexibility." Dammit! I tried so hard to get through this w/o an Aaron Miles crack. I'm a weak man!

I guess the bottom line is that the rotation should be improved, slightly, over '07. It's dubious at best to consider it competitive w/ the other playoff contenders in the league.

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sweet
I stay up late and what do I find?  A new post at 2:00AM.  WOOOOOO!
Now the story of a wealthy family who lost everything, and the one son who had no choice but to keep them all together...it's Arrested Development.

by Bowen on Jan 6, 2008 3:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's a legitimate rotation,
as in it is legitimately a major league starting rotation. It is also a legitimately mediocre-to-bad starting rotation. Semantics, whatever.

As you pretty much stated, it is hard to believe the rotation can be worse than last years, though, so it almost has to be an upgrade, no? (Let us freaking hope so.)
 

Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 6, 2008 3:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

We hoped for the same last year
being deluded that Wells couldn't possibley be worse than Betty....wrong.

At least our Legitimate GM has assembled a legitimate MI to back up the legitimate rotation.  Oh wait...

I'm no longer sure I'll re-up MLB.TV because I might find more legitimate things to do with my time than to watch the 08 Cards reset the baseline of VORP.

by Birds on the Bat on Jan 6, 2008 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

technically
Wells WAS better in '07 than marquis in '06.  Just barely, but he was, at least in terms of ERA, K/9, K/BB, HR/9, etc.  Marquis '06 only beat Wells '07 in terms of BABIP and BB/9.  And W's ;)

It was Anthony Reyes who really crapped on our predictions in '07, since we expected him to be in the high 3's/low 4's ERA and he ended up worse than '06 Marquis.  Sigh.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 6, 2008 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't we say something along
the lines of "they can't be that bad" the last few seasons and then they go and prove us wrong?  Didn't we all think the offense was going to be better in 07 compared to 06 -- that Rolen and Edmonds would rebound?

I'm not excited to see what this starting rotation is going to do.  It's going to be ugly.

by azruavatar on Jan 6, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Legitimate as in...
We're not converting two relievers this year, for whatever that's worth.  Legitimate as in maybe scott  spezio won't pitch this year.  Legitimate as in a legitimately suspect rotation.

by spencegrif on Jan 6, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mo's declaration...
After the Matt Clement signing, Mozeliak declared that  the starting rotation was "legitimate." That's a curious term to use considering two of the rotation's projected starting 5 are coming off surgeries and the 2 have thrown a combined 26 innings since the 2006 All-Star break!

With all due respect, what did you expect him to say, "this rotation is a clusterf***, but it's the best I could put together, given the budget restraints(make no mistake, there are budget restraints, despite the payroll being over $100MM) and the fact that no one wants to come here and play."?

"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jan 6, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The payroll isn't over $100 M
Before signing Clement, using DeWitt's false $115 M budget ceiling, payroll stood at $96 M.  If you believed DeWitt (which I don't), he had $19 M to spend on a starting pitcher if he deemed fit.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Semantics...
it will be over $100MM after all is said and done.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jan 6, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not semantics
they cut payroll with Edmonds and then spent it on dumpster dives like Miles, Izturis and Clement.  That's $6 M.  If payroll 'is going to be above $100 M when all is said and done', I'd rather spend $8 M on an above average pitcher and let Ryan, Jiminez, Barden, etc fill in for the middle infield.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was just trying
 to make a point about what Mozeliak said; that was the gist of my original comment. I never said the money available would be wisely spent.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jan 6, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So is it legitimate?
Mo can spin it any way he wants. I could give a shit about his spin. How good is it? It's unfortunate that you missed the entire point of the post.

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carpenter
This comment on Carp sticks out like a sore thumb..."He won't have pitched in almost 2 years."

Man if we don't see something from Carp soon that expensive extention Walt gave him is going to be a disaster.  I sure hope they are getting insurance money on Chris.

I had a bad feeling when they signed Chris up to that extention a full year before they even really had to... it was going to come back and bite them, I just didn't think it would happen so soon.  Sad fact: Carp pitched ONE regular season game after he signed on the dotted line. Ouch.

by KYCards on Jan 6, 2008 9:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

OTOH
1y5m rounds to 2 years?  heh.

by sdrone on Jan 6, 2008 11:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How's this
w/ the exception of 6 innings last April, Carp will not have pitched between October, 2006 and August (at best) of 2008. So, you're right -- Carp will have thrown 6 whole innings that interrupt my "almost 2 years" comment.

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2008 12:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's starting to look pretty bad
But it might not bo TOO bad, long-term.  

If we hadn't extended him and hadn't picked up his option after last year, we'd have been out the 9M for '07 + '08 buyout anyway, so even if he doesn't pitch at all in '08 that will effectively make the extension into 3Y of pitching for 56M (~19M per). Maybe 4Y for 70M (17.5 per) if we pick up the 15M 2012 option.  If he returns to form following the surgery that's basically market rate, maybe a bit over, maybe a bit under for the out years.  And that math assumes we don't get anything from the insurance settlement.

Obviously the fuzzy math changes if he doesn't come back...

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 6, 2008 7:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

miles crack right on
well, things look quantitatively just like they feel qualitatively.  nice to see they are not likely to be obviously worse!  what i find interesting and a little bit hopeful is that there is less of a log jam of starting pitchers than of middle infielders, i.e., it seems that one of the young pitchers could actually get a sufficient look to make the team, even rotation.  in the mi, they've signed such a multitude of ex-major league has beens that sorting through those will not likely leave much of an opportunity for the younger players to make a show.  so, the aaron miles comment does have it's place!

by sportsman on Jan 6, 2008 9:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree on Carp, but...
the last time he hadn't pitched in two years he came back and was pretty good.  I hope TLR/Dunc follow your advice and use him out of the pen to in '08.  Maybe we could move Izzy around the deadline and use Carp/committee to close the rest of the year.

The analysis just goes to show that the line between legitimate and illegitimate is a pretty fine one.  Too bad we can't count on more run support than '07.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 6, 2008 10:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

houston, you said in the kazmir thread
that he wouldn't make this team a contender next year.

What if you replaced Brathony with Scott Kazmir?  How many wins is that worth to the team?

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 11:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great question
he was worth 8 last year and 6 the year before that. Let's say 7. Then subtract the number of wins that Rasmus will be worth next year. Last year, Mike Cameron was worth 5, Chris Young about 3, Gary Matthews, Jr -- 4.4. Rasmus won't be Sizemore next year but he should be better than Young. Let's call it 4. Therefore, trading Rasmus for Kazmir gains us about 3 wins (maybe 4) next year. Add that to the 3 that I estimated above and that makes up the +7 we finished vs. our Pythagorean record. That brings us to 78-84!

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You assume that Colby Rasmus
will be worth anything to the MLB club next year.  I'm still dubious he will be with the amount of guaranteed roster spots we have right now.  Ankiel, Duncan, Ludwick and Barton are all almost locks for the OF.  Even is Skip is traded, I don't know that Colby cracks the 25 man roster.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure how to use periphs to calculate
how many wins a pitcher is worth, but using your table and zips for Kazmir:


            HR/9 BB/9 K/9

Reympson    1.25 3.16 4.83
Kazmir      0.86 3.22 9.86

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I used WARP1 from the last 2 years
and assumed that Reympson was replacement level. If Reympson is above replacement level (doubtful) then Kazmir's obviously worth less.

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OT: Steve Carlton picture
So, I was scanning Getty Images to see if there were any photos of Lefty's 19 strikeout game and stumbled upon this.

Anyone see Gibby in this photo?

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 11:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Looks like there's a full moon arisin"!!! LOL
pretty funny , HL...it's amazing what you can stumble onto on the Web...this reminds me of when I was scanning some of the images on Wikipedia a few years ago, and ran across some Full Monty photos of Joe Dimaggio and Bob Feller that some photographer has snapped when they were in the shower,back in the forties, I would guess...the point was that back in those days, the press had some scruples and would not publish pictures that would embarrass a major celebrity...today, of course, those images would be all over the internet.

by tbell61 on Jan 6, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I Have To Disagree
The Hardball Times did an article on rotation numbers-giving an ERA total to league average slots.

While the Cards do not look as though they will have that bonafied ace from April to October, there is reason to believe this rotation is legitimate.

You did a nice job of breaking it down but I think you were rather pessimistic.

Here is what Bill James projects for Wainwright, Mulder, Pineiro, Clement and Looper:
Wainwright - 4.06era 213ip
Looper - 3.98era 193ip
Mulder - 4.34era 143ip
Pineiro - 4.53era 173ip
Clement - 4.17era 95ip
Reyes - 3.88era 109ip

As mentioned, that is nothing spectacular, but admittedly strong.  Here is what THT averaged for playoff teams in the NL:
#1 - 3.43
#2 - 3.87
#3 - 4.41
#4 - 4.89
#5 - 5.95

So while the cards appear to be about half a run behind in the #1 and #2 spot, they make up a good deal from the #4 and a major deal in the #5 slot.  Also, 'what if' Carpenter returns in May or June?  The rotation improves by that much more.

by bheikoop on Jan 6, 2008 11:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Early Returns
...Oftentimes occur.

Obviously I'm not banking on it, otherwise I would have included his numbers in my post, but if he returns early, that makes a quality rotation that much better.

by bheikoop on Jan 6, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The periphs I used
were very similar to what James went with.  The only areas of disagreement are with Clement and Reyes.  It's interesting, BTW, that you didn't include Thompson's numbers.

What if Reyes isn't around and the Reympson person I created is Hawkson or Thompisi?  We're still looking at some replacement-level hybrid.  

Are you really that sanguine on Reyes and Clement?  Clement hasn't pitched since June of 2006.  I saw James' forecast for him but disregarded it b/c it was far too optimistic IMO.  I'm just not buying that he finishes the year w/ a 4.17 ERA.  And if he does, where are you accounting for the innings that Hawkson or Thompisi get that Clement isn't pitching?  95 innings is hardly an entire season.

It would be great if Reyes pitches that well but I think if he does, it'll likely be for someone else and I'm certainly not counting on it.

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thompson et al.
I actually didn't see a need for Thompson.  The pitchers I used contribute 926 innings.  Given the fewer then 1500 innings needed for an entire team, I would say that amount is sufficient.

As for Clement, my prediction would far exceed what James is giving him credit for.  95 innings pitched seems like an obvious median-that is, he will either be in the 160-180 range or the 30-40 range.  I can't see how he would efficiently pitch 95 innings.

I do somewhat agree with you assertion of Reyes, stat heads have loved him for some time now.

by bheikoop on Jan 6, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Budget constraints aren't the issue.
It's lack of available free agents. If AJ Burnett were available like he was two years ago, I suspect they would be all over him.

There simply isn't a difference maker among the FAs out there--even in the outfield.

by Red in Chicago on Jan 6, 2008 2:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Unless, of course
you want the guy from Texas who shoots up with carrot juice.

by Red in Chicago on Jan 6, 2008 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Reply To This
Please.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rotation
That rotation, "legitmate?"  I don't think so.  Maybe if Carpenter were healthy for Opening Day (obviously not happening) and Mulder was back to '05 (?) form.

Off topic, I know, but I found a cool list of free agents for next offseason...

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/09-free-agents/

by ET90210 on Jan 6, 2008 6:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So basically
This is likely another year of crapitude from the mound...cool.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 6, 2008 7:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I've been accused
more than once here of being too critical of the team.  Being critical of the rotation certainly wasn't my intention.  While I don't see next year's rotation as strong, I do see it being an improvement over last year.

Wainwright's continued development is something to watch, as is whether or not Clement can return to form.  The Cards have a reasonable option on Clement for '09 so he'll definitely be one worth watching (I hope) in '08.

It's not all piss and vinegar.

by chuckb on Jan 6, 2008 8:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
I have to agree with you on one note:  It will be quite interesting to see how Wainwright does this year.  I think he's got the savvy and the command to be a very very good pitcher.  The thing is that after him, its literally a total crapshoot.  The buy-low, obtain projects approach has worked in the past for certain guys.  I'm just worried that this kind of situation on a massive scale is going to give poor Dave Duncan a coronary.  

I probably took your insights a bit too far by saying it will be another year of crapitude, and I also agree that this should be an improvement over the 07 bunch simply because of the volume of arms at LaDunkiak's disposal.  If you have a big enough pile of wood, you're going to pull 5 good pieces out at some point.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 7, 2008 3:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cardinals shopping for a lefty?
Just saw a rumor that the Cards might be looking for a lefty.. if this is true there could be a deal in the making....

http://bellevillenewsdemocrat.typepad.com/viewfromthecheapseats/2008/01/rumor-mill-lean.html

by Calhoun on Jan 6, 2008 9:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

sigh
it's after posts like these that i start to question my fan hood.

seriously folks, i'm am not excited about 08, i have no interest in seeing if tony & scotty will play nice. i dont want to see Albert killing himself just to finish higher than 4th in the division. i dont want to be a bandwagon fan, but i'm really starting to question whether or not i should devote 6 months of my life to this club. despite what the team & the post-dispatch say, this club won't finish higher than 3rd in a very winnable division.

if the club isn't willing to put forth the effort to put a contending team on the field. and on top of that they flat out lie to every fan & insult our intelligence & say they are. as a fan why should i put forth the effort to watch them suck for 6 months when i just as easily could do something productive for myself?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jan 7, 2008 1:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

What do you want them to do?
There isnt exactly a good free agent market....
Cardinals are doing exactly what needs to be done getting this team younger and developing a decent farm system.....

by Calhoun on Jan 7, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
Cardinals are doing exactly what needs to be done getting this team younger and developing a decent farm system.....

EXCEPT for signing Aaron Miles, that is...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jan 7, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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