Clemens on 60 Minutes

by bukowski on Jan 6, 2008 9:06 PM EST

Just got done watching Clemens be interviewed by Mike Wallace. I think he brought up some good points, but there are still some serious doubts in my mind. And yes, in my mind, you're innocent until proven guilty. There remains reasonable doubt on Clemens. Even though Clemens waffled hard on the question about a lie detector, and probably wasn't giving the whole answer when asked about Pettite. I do think Wallace through him some soft-toss...but then again, he's like 89. CBS went way deep in the pen on this one. With that, the first bukowski poll...

Poll

Clemens :

Used steroids

132 votes

Didn't use steroids

7 votes

Don't give a straight damn - I got my own problems

24 votes

So what? He's still going to the HOF

17 votes

180 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 21 comments

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Comments

Lie detectors don't work...

well, they don't detect lies, anyway.

by DiscoJer on Jan 6, 2008 9:00 PM EST 0 recs

60 Minutes

The 60 Minutes interview of Clemens is not a just or accurate gauge on Clemens, because Clemens & Wallace are known to be close friends. There is no way that Wallace would actually ask Roger some questions that could hurt his case. If Clemens was interviewed by a different news anchor/show, then that is a different story...

sign someone GOOD this time!

by dunc4life on Jan 6, 2008 9:49 PM EST 0 recs

I'm not so sure

that is not an edited version of what was originally suppose to be televised because Clemens from reports talked to CBS about not airing the interview last week after being threaten by law suits.

by ridgesee on Jan 6, 2008 11:19 PM EST up 0 recs

The Interview

Was it just me or was Clemens squirming in his chair and flinching when Wallace was naming off the accusations?
I don't know about you guys but he looked guilty as charged............

by Calhoun on Jan 6, 2008 11:28 PM EST 0 recs

Guilty?

Clemens sounds like he full of shit just talking about oatmeal. He's not wasting any time lobbying for the vote in five years after watching Bonds break the biggest record in baseball and possibly seeing just an * at the end of it all.

Some guys just dont look good in red.

by cardschinmusic on Jan 7, 2008 12:11 PM EST 0 recs

My favorite part

was when he made the comment that he

"...was popping Vioxx like they were Skittles..."

Not only is it incredibly dumb to make a statement like that in the course of this interview, but the whole question was set up to make him look like the victim of some trainer who didn't know that the drug had problems. I'm sure the trainers stopped prescribing Vioxx after they knew it was harmful, and wouldn't have prescribed it at all if they knew the harm it could inflict. This doesn't excuse his alleged steroid injections at all, and popping prescription anti-inflammatories "like Skittles" actually hurts Clemens' case, imo. There are no prescription medications that don't have harsh side-effects from consistent overuse.

This morning Clemens filed suit against McNamee for defamation which, considering the timing, looks like a really good excuse for not showing up to the Congressional meetings. If these things were not true, why wouldn't you file a lawsuit immediately after the release of the Mitchell Report? Why would you wait three weeks? He also skirted around the accusation of "lies" by saying "it's not true"...obviously he was prepped by lawyers for this interview.

And Roger, I hate to tell you this, but all of the big names in that report have been around for 20 - 25 years (Bonds, McGwire, etc.), why should you get accorded more respect than them? They have accomplished just as much as you have, but McGwire has already suffered more than you probably ever will from this and there's less proof of his use than there is of yours. His home-run chase in '98 literally brought fans back to the game and he didn't get in on the first ballot of the Hall of Fame because of "alleged" steroid use, basically tied to a steroid precursor (Andro) that was a legal supplement at the time he was taking it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 7, 2008 12:25 PM EST 0 recs

Re: McGwire

The one thing I can't understand is why McGwire didn't just say "No, I never took steriods, but I took the shit out of Andro." I just don't get why he would say "I'm not here to talk about the past" instead of admitting taking something legal that explains his weight gain and Incredible Hulk body. Unless he didn't want to lie . . .

by Ray Lankford on Jan 7, 2008 1:57 PM EST up 0 recs

Ummmmmm...

That's assuming that he's completely clean, which is a huge assumption given the amount of steroid use going on throughout the last 20 years in baseball. It's one thing to pull a Barry Bonds and "possibly" perjure yourself in supposedly sealed Grand Jury testimony, it's quite another to possibly do that on national television in front of Congress. It's better to stay away from making blanket absolute statments (see Palmeiro, Rafael) and take some criticism than to end up with egg on your face later on.

As a defender of Mac, I use the number 49 a lot, which was the number of homers he hit in his first full major league season playing in a pitchers park in Oakland. He also has always been a very stout, muscular guy, so the growth he exhibited after his various injuries could easily have resulted from extensive weightlifting workouts, and Mac's work ethic in the weightroom has never been questioned.. Canseco was a tiny little shit when he first came up, was never much for working out, and now we all know why. Bonds and Clemens both had slight builds for the early and middle parts of their careers, then both exhibited extensive growth in their age 35-40 seasons.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 7, 2008 3:32 PM EST up 0 recs

I don't

I don't defend Mac anymore than the next guy. I don't care if he played in STL.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 7, 2008 6:11 PM EST up 0 recs

It appears

Logic tells us, if Andro is all that McGwire took, that is what he would have done. However, he said what he said because a lawyer coached him to. Why, because if he admitted to taking steriods, he would forever be labeled a cheater and would never get into the HOF. Once admitting it, there is no going back. If he pulled a Palmeiro, he stood the chance of being proven a liar, which is even worse. (odds are his trail was not 100% covered up, since roids were basically encouraged at the time that he was accused by Canseco of taking them.) Unfortunately, the way his testimony was perceived was that of a half-assed confession, which has had the same effect as admitting it.

McGwire has tried to disappear to keep what he did out of the public eye and promised to help by teaching kids to stay away from the junk, but nobody wants to let him do that...they just want a confession so they can trash him.

What would you suggest he do? Stay hidden?...Come out and apologize for doing it? (Which would lead tons of people to ask him to rat out former teammates and friends.)...Deny it 100% like Clemens or Palmeiro knowing there is a chance he will be busted later?...Fake being unable to speak English?

Only time will tell on how the public will perceive him over the next few decades, but Mac is likely sorry, doesn't want to rat anyone else out, did it to keep up with Canseco and others in a game that was encouraging it, and now just wishes the whole thing would go away.

I, for one am glad he didn't lie, and glad he didn't come out and blatantly admit it unless the others taking it had to also. He did it while the league wanted him to, he quit when the league stopped wanting him to.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 7, 2008 5:23 PM EST up 0 recs

Clemens and Congress

I just think its ridiculous that the House Oversight Committee actually wants to call old Roger in for a little chat. You would think they'd be able to find something else worth talking about given the complexity of the world in which we live, but NOO! they'd rather do some self righteous, whataboutamerica'syouth finger-wagging at some possibly 'roided up baseball player (all the while ignoring the NFL of course). Its ridiculous.

It's also my personal opinion that Clemens took something illegal. However, I find it a little bothersome that some individual can come out and say "Oh, yeah, I shot him in the bum with some chemicals!" and that is taken as absolute fact. It puts the accused in a position where they have to prove their innocence in the Court of Public Opinion, and given the fact that his trainer beat him to the punch that will be pretty much impossible. I would probably care a bit more, though, if we weren't talking about a dude who just gives teams a call whenever he feels like playing and gets paid a kajillion dollars for a couple of months of work, all the while leaving teams around him in a complete lurch.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 7, 2008 2:12 PM EST 0 recs

Agreed

Under the current thought process of the American people, I could come out and say that: "Lboros is a Cub fan, and has secretly hidden his Shawon Dunston autograph and underwear collection" and people would think that's the gospel truth. Sorry, LB. :)

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 7, 2008 2:17 PM EST up 0 recs

Consensus

I think I speak for all of us when I say we are just fine without seeing a Shawon Dunston underwear collection. (Cards or Cubs)

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 7, 2008 5:04 PM EST up 0 recs

Ha!

Good one on the Shawon Dunston underwear collection. I should point out that he actually played one year for the BOB in 2000. Even then, that guy could chuck it.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 7, 2008 5:10 PM EST up 0 recs

You forgot

the SHAWON-O-METER hanging on his wall reading .231 from his last year with the Giants.

by That's a Winner on Jan 8, 2008 11:32 AM EST up 0 recs

I respectfully disagree...

The Oversight Committee should be holding hearings on this type of thing because it is what we, as taxpayers, pay them to do. Athletes that have admitted to taking PED's (Pettitte) should be called in for testimony if the government intends to investigate how easy it is to procure these drugs, where they come from, and how they get distributed in this country. If our current drug laws are not working then Congress needs more information about illegal distribution in order to crack down and close loopholes. The majority of these businesses are not operating in the public interest -- BALCO and the Florida rejuvination clinic (which is complicit in the double homicide and suicide at the Chris Benoit residence, imo) don't produce a product that has any social value. Should Clemens have to testify? No...but if he wants to prove his innocence he really has nothing to lose.

Furthermore, it's not just his trainer's testimony that's damning, it's the fact that Clemens failed to denounce the charges immediately. He also failed to go on the record with the Mitchell Report when asked to cooperate. I realize that he was probably legally advised not to do either, but if he's truly innocent, he should have been out there refuting this report from the start, not waiting 3 weeks to get his shit in order and THEN coming out with a softball interview and then a lawsuit that has no chance of ever being settled. If he was completely innocent, which doesn't seem likely to me, then he has nothing to lose by coming out immediately and talking about it.

Clemens stated last night that he took shots of Linocaine in his buttocks; unfortunately those shots only work when injected directly into a joint -- injecting them anywhere else would be a fruitless endeavor. There are also plenty of other, safer ways to get B12 supplements into your body.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 7, 2008 3:52 PM EST up 0 recs

Counterpoint

I don't disagree that Congress should at least be looking in to these sorts of 'roid peddling services. I think it falls under the overall "war on drugs" deal that should be looked at by those in power. HOWEVER: there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that this will be nothing more than a publicity stunt by the HOC to make themselves look good. I've watched at least 15 committee meetings in their entirety in my day (not really by choice, just b/c of my job being what it is), and whenever some big situation like this is being discussed and the cameras are on you get a bunch of old crusty men waxing poetic about why they're there and why person X is destroying the minds of America's youth or whatever. There are about 10 actual questions asked during the course of the several hours of blahblahblah, and at the end you get the feeling that the witness would have said just about anything to get the hell out of there. Its nothing more than a 3-ring circus to appease the constituents.

I think the existence of these "doctors" giving out HGH like Skittles is a bit distressing. However, the act of calling in Roger Clemens to find out where he got his stuff is a futile effort designed to drum up publicity. If they're actually serious about going down this road, then they need to start calling in football players, pro rasslers (not wrestlers, big difference), body builders, and 'roid middlemen. The issue of 'roids in baseball is such a small part of this entire industry that making MLB the central face of this situation is foolish, and is nothing more than a stunt to make the assorted consituencies feel like their elected officials are doing something. It's all very shameful from where I sit.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 7, 2008 4:56 PM EST up 0 recs

Furthermore

I fail to see any reason for him, or any other baseball player, to go talk to the Mitchell people on his own accord to defend their own name. The whole "I have nothing to hide" line is so ridiculous on so many levels that I don't even know where to start. If you didn't do anything, you shouldn't be made to go talk to someone with the entire purpose being to say "I did nothing wrong" over and over again. That's harassment, plain and simple.

I also strongly disagree with your claim that sitting around saying nothing for 3 weeks is "damning." How does that prove anything? Again, this is very suspect evidence that is being used to crush this guy. Your other evidence put forth in this post is the fact that he injected himself in the butt with something that doesn't work if you inject yourself in the butt. It is certainly possible that he was trying some kind of bait-and-switch defense, but that could just mean he's a knucklehead and can't read a product's instruction label (after all, he is from Texas!). It doesn't PROVE anything.

It makes me sick that I'm defending a guy I consider to be a great player but a suspect individual. Like I said earlier, I have a strong suspicion he took something somewhere along the line. But I also believe that no one should have to prove their own innocence, especially in the face of hearsay and a circumstantial evidence which has been taken as absolute fact by about 87% of people in the world.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 7, 2008 5:07 PM EST up 0 recs

Circumstantial?

There is an eye-witness who admitted to injecting the stuff into Mr. Clemen's ass. That is a hell of a lot more than circumstantial or hearsay. Circumstantial would be that McNamee gave him some steriods and Clemens asked for a refill but never saw or asked what he did with them. This is strictly Clemens' word versus McNamee's word.

I don't know where this came from about him "sitting around for 3 weeks" before denying it that has been playing in the media. He had a statement released the night that the Mitchell report came out denying it and other statements several times since then. He did not wait 3 weeks...it just took him 3 weeks to get his buddy Mike Wallace to put him on 60 minutes.

If he didn't do it, then he shouldn't have to defend himself...but he will still have to because he has been accused and his name won't clear itself.

If he did it, then he should have to defend himself because he cheated the game. And if he did, he should face the consequences...whatever those may be.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 7, 2008 5:45 PM EST up 0 recs

Agree on the Mitchell fiasco

any use of illegal PEDs prior to them having been banned by MLB is purely a law enforcement matter.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 8, 2008 12:01 AM EST up 0 recs

Certainly

this is not circumstantial evidence. It's not hearsay either. In a court of law this would be permissible evidence for two reasons: it's testimony from a witness under oath talking to federal investigators, and the witnesses claim of injecting another player (Pettitte) has been corroborated by the accused.

There are plenty of ways for Clemens to clear his name if he is truly innocent, but playing the pity party and asking for "respect" are hardly ways to endear yourself to those who think you're guilty as charged.

I've read the Mitchell Report in its entirety and every player who is mentioned has a large amount of evidence entered about their activities. Circumstantial evidence is ignored for the most part, such as the former NY Met batboy's statements regarding that clubhouse were, for the most part, omitted from the report.

I completely disagree that he shouldn't have to defend himself if he "didn't do anything". This accusation isn't going away -- it's not something he can just ignore and deny and people will forget about it. It hasn't happened for McGwire or Palmeiro or Bonds, it certainly isn't going to happen for Clemens. If he has nothing to hide than what is the harm in talking to investigators who ask appropriate questions while the subject is under oath? I agree, he has the right not to, but don't throw out the "respect" card when there's a simple way to distance yourself from this business, which is to testify on your own behalf to investigators. The testimony can even be mediated so that Clemens doesn't have to answer questions about any other player or incriminate anyone else while attempting to clear his name. It's really just that simple.

Had Pete Rose simply come out and admitted his mistake immediately after he was caught, he would probably be in the Hall of Fame right now. Instead, he's played the "respect" card with the public for years, admitted his transgressions in a book off of which he made vast sums of money, and is generally only interested in the best interests of Pete Rose, not the game of baseball.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 8, 2008 2:07 PM EST up 0 recs