Jan 3 Hot Stove --- Cards Sign Clement
Update [2008-1-3 16:26:32 by lboros]: Cards Sign Clement to one-year deal.
Matt Clement, who last pitched for the Boston Red Sox in 2006, signed a one-year contract with the Cardinals today. The deal includes a club option for 2009.Clement's base salary was not immediately known. The contract includes significant incentives for appearances.
Clement, 33, had shoulder surgery in September 2006. He has an 87-86 record with a 4.47 earned-run average to show for a nine-year career that began with the San Diego Padres.
[end update]
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Nick Swisher traded.From Yahoo.com, I saw that the A's traded Nick Swisher for 2 minor league pitchers and Ryan Sweeney from the White Sox. Swisher is a saber-hero, with his good pop and phenomenal walk rates.
This trade is interesting in that it seems people have generally burst the Billy Beane bubble for saber-metric genius. Sorry Azruavatar. It seems your darlings are finally getting their due.
From what I gathered at MLB Traderumors, the pitchers that the Sox gave up were their top 2 pitching prospects in the deal.
What does this mean for us? Does this de-value Duncan and Ankiel, as their OBP is never going to be great? I think it certainly lowers the bar for anything we can get for Reyes. If the pale hose had to give up this kind of pitching talent for a decent CF with a good batting eye, surely Reyes won't be worth a bag of chips, will he?
I believe this trade at LEAST reflects the move to the saber-metric means of measuring players has resonated throughout the league. No longer are guys like Swisher and co. going to fly under the radar and sign cheap contracts.
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How does this burst Beane's bubble?
Nick Swisher's 2006-2007 offensive performances (.830-.860 OPS) are actually a good estimate for what we can expect out of Ludwick next year, imho, except with better defense and for close to league minimum the next 2 years. I'm kind of shocked that is worth what the white sox just paid.
by SleepyCA on Jan 3, 2008 3:21 PM EST 0 recs
It's obvious to me
I do believe that this was a bit of an overpay, but not by much. Swisher is 3 years from free agency and is headed into his prime, is a switch hitter that can play a lot of different positions, and has a very high walk rate, which is en-vogue right now (and imo, overvalued somewhat).
Oakland fans are up in arms about this deal, but it's obvious that Beane is trying to maximize value in what is a cruddy offseason for free agents, and has done a marvelous job by spinning 2 good players into 6 top prospects. It falls in line with Oakland's organizational philosophy, I'm just not sure what the philisophy of the White Sox organization is at this point!
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 3:50 PM EST
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Why should he be making a run at competing
Selling off what you've got to compete down the road doesn't always work (see: Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Texas)
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 3, 2008 3:54 PM EST
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Since you asked...
The White Sox have Thome, Dye, Konerko. The last two are about to become 10-5 players within the next two years, so you can't just trade them anywhere which makes it harder to get value. All are on the wrong side of 30 and will probably have skills that start to diminish in the next 3-4 seasons. Thome also has an injury history and is already showing signs of slowing down. They are the cornerstone of the ballclub along with Buehrle -- who is more of a #2 pitcher instead of an ace.
They've traded away their second best pitcher (Garland) for a 33 year old SS coming off a career year, traded minor league talent for Carlos Quentin, who hasn't proven anything yet, and now moved your top three A and AA prospects for Swisher. Swisher either plays LF displacing Quentin, or CF displacing Jerry Owens your leadoff hitter. In CF he hurts the outfield defense tremendously since neither he, Quentin, or Dye have much speed. You say they're 2 years removed from a championship, but look how they won that championship -- great pitching and a timely offense that could create runs with speed at the top of the order and mashers in the middle. This team is shaping up to be the inverse of that, station-to-station baseball waiting for the big fly, with not as much pitching depth and not near as good a bullpen even after overpaying for Scott Linebrink.
Now lets break down the division:
Minnesota: The Twins open a new ballpark this year, have one pitcher with a foot out the door (Santana), one with an uncertain future (Liriano), and just traded away another for young outfield talent (Garza). They lost Torii Hunter but replaced his bat with Delmon Young -- didn't replace his glove. They have Morneau and Mauer under control for a few more seasons before they'll have to make a decision on them. In short, the Twins should be competitive in the future as they have a strong farm system and good young talent that they may be able to hold onto if attendance is better at the new ballpark.
Detroit: They have a great team going into 2008, they traded most of their top prospects to acquire one solid SS (Renteria) and one keystone franchise piece (Cabrera). They have 5 key players that probably won't be around in 3 years however (Sheffield, Granderson, Pudge, Ordonez, and Rogers) Verlander is a stud, but the rest of the pitching staff and bullpen have a lot of questions, and Verlander will require a max contract when he becomes a free agent.
Cleveland: Like Detroit, great chance to make a run in 2008, but quite a few questions in the 2 or 3 years after that. Sabathia is a free agent after next season and will require max money. Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Carmona, and Peralta are all going to start getting expensive in the next 3 or 4 years via arbitration or free agency. They still have a good to great farm system, but the current Indian team will probably see a major makeover in the next 2 or 3 seasons unless they have a major increase in payroll from being 23rd in the league last year, when no Indian player made more than $10 million.
Kansas City: Good young talent (Gordon, Butler, DeJesus, Teahen, Pena Jr.) coupled with solid free agent signings (Meche, Guillen) will give the Royals a chance to compete for the next couple of years. In my mind they need one more solid pitcher in their rotation to become legitimate contenders. They have good pitching talent in the minors, but many of those farmhands haven't panned out lately (Zach Greinke, please stand up). If any of them do I expect the Royals to be a solid contender in a couple of years unless they make a really bad trade or signing.
Looking at this division, does it make sense for the White Sox to corrupt their farm system to put together a team that's going to struggle to win the wild card in this division? You have 2 playoff teams (Tigers & Indians), one team loaded for a rebound year (Twins) and one really young team that never keeps its talent when they reach free agency (KC). This division will be the best in baseball until 2010 or 2011. After that, the Twins will have to make a decision on the M&M boys, as well as Liriano and Delmon Young, Detroit will no longer have Sheffield, Rogers, and Pudge, and have Guillen and Ordonez in their late thirties hogging payroll needed to sign Cabrera and Verlander to long term deals, and Cleveland will either have to double it's payroll to keep who they currently have or let some of it's talent go. As the franchise is currently being run Thome will be retired, Dye and Konerko will be either gone or untradeable for good talent, Pierzinski will be in his second career as a bar bouncer, and the farm system will have been depleted enough to keep it from replenishing those players with good talent. It would be better to sell fairly high on those players, cut payroll, and be in a position to sign or trade for some of the lucrative free agents coming available in the next couple of years.
In truth, the White Sox are in a similar situation as the Cardinals, with a better pitching staff and short one future HOF player. After next year the Cards would be 2 years removed from a title, so should they trade off their three best minor league pitchers (Garcia, Boggs, et al) and their second best pitcher (Wainwright) for a 33 year old SS making big $$$ and an .800 OPS switch hitter who plays four positions? Not to mention that the Sox don't have a prospect near as touted as Colby Rasmus waiting in the wings.
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 6:05 PM EST
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Minnesota's new ballpark....
It's scheduled to open in April, 2010. Even that is looking doubtful. The tragedy of the collapse of the I35 bridge has also caused a delay on the groundbreaking and construction of the new park.
They just poured the first concrete pour on Dec. 17th, 2007.
by lemon20pie on
Jan 4, 2008 8:19 AM EST
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Beane
by Eckstreem on
Jan 3, 2008 5:31 PM EST
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no
Baseball right now is in a weird state, with excellent pre-arb players (especially pitchers) being heavily over-valued, and Beane just managed to get 2 and potentially 3 of them in exchange for one middling "proven" CF. Last month he got 6(!) in exchange for one "proven" pitcher (that he got along with a potential perennial all-star in exchange for an older, expensive, and injured pitcher 3 years before!) and a throw-in.
If this was a video game I would swear he was cheating...
by SleepyCA on
Jan 3, 2008 5:51 PM EST
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I agree with
The stupid part of this deal is that the Sox aren't going to win with or without him anytime soon in that division. They should be doing what Beane is doing.
But in a vacuum, this is the sort of future for present talent swap that you'd likely see. DLR is a ways away without a third pitch, and Gio is a great psopect. They both are, and Swicher is a .300 EQA hitter with a good contract, career shape and projections, and defense. Plus, he'll take advantage of the Cell.
by plh903 on
Jan 3, 2008 8:35 PM EST
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Cards got Clement!
by gostlouis on Jan 3, 2008 3:22 PM EST 0 recs
Seriously?
Where does he even fit into the rotation?
Wainwright
Looper
Pineiro
Clement/Reyes/Mulder make up last 2 spots.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 3, 2008 3:31 PM EST
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I don't know
I don't know if Clement will even make the team.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 3, 2008 3:42 PM EST
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ICcardfan
by ridgesee on
Jan 3, 2008 4:07 PM EST
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Competition
Sometimes it has worked out, other times we end up with a Ponson in the rotation.
Throw enough against the wall somebody has to be able to pitch league average, right?
by bdief on
Jan 3, 2008 3:45 PM EST
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He doesn't
I'm sure this deal is cheaper than the Mark Prior deal, and more incentive laden. Clement has accomplished as much or more as a pro and did actually pitch in games in the last two years.
In summary it's really not a bad gamble on the club's part, considering Jennings and Colon both would have cost more and are older. It also falls in line with the VEB Gameplan that most of us seem to agree on: Don't take on long-term, big-money contracts, take some gambles going into next year on guys who could be impact role players down the road (Clement, Barton, Brazelton), and save money for the 2009 free agent class.
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 4:02 PM EST
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What more of a fire
If it's motivation he needs, I don't think signing Matt Clement is it.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 3, 2008 4:10 PM EST
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But at the same time
by aet15 on
Jan 3, 2008 4:14 PM EST
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Cool...
Also, too many pitchers is never a bad thing.
by Beware the Molinas on
Jan 3, 2008 3:44 PM EST
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Radar gun prohibited....
All in all I like it better than Prior and its cheap, which seemed to be the reason some thought the Prior was attractive. Both ex-Cubs, obviously this one "hated" on us less.
Will he be the next Matty Mo, only without the big hook and a sub-par fastball?
by cardschinmusic on
Jan 4, 2008 4:19 AM EST
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link
by erik on Jan 3, 2008 3:40 PM EST 0 recs
Interesting to compare Swisher deal
by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 3:47 PM EST 0 recs
Duncan vs. Swisher
If you compare Swisher and Duncan's numbers they are similar. Swisher has a bit more than 2 times the MLB AB's that Duncan has.
Swisher
.251 BA/.361 OBP/.464 SLG/.825 OPS
Duncan
.272 BA/.356 OBP/.528 SLG/.884 OPS
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 3, 2008 3:55 PM EST
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Not to mention...
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 4:04 PM EST
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Well, right
by aet15 on
Jan 3, 2008 4:08 PM EST
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maybe
Also, Swisher walks a lot more and strikes out less than Duncan. He's also played 3 full seasons in the big leagues so teams basically know what to expect. Duncan has a nice OPS, but really has only played about one full, healthy season at the big league level.
In my mind, if they're going to trade Duncan it has to be a nearly lopsided deal in the Cardinals favor, meaning we'd need to get a #2 starter or a young starting SS out of the deal. Either that or three monster prospects. Since he is the only good trading chip that they have, they can't make a move that doesn't benefit the ballclub in the immediate future.
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 4:20 PM EST
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at the trade deadline last year,
by SleepyCA on
Jan 3, 2008 5:22 PM EST
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That looks great...
Anaheim - Guerrero, Anderson, Juan Rivera
Boston - Papi
NYY - Posada and Giambi
Cleveland - Hafner
Detroit - Sheffield, Mags
Toronto - Thomas, Glaus
White Sox - Thome, Konerko headed there soon
Oakland - Jack Cust had a HUGE second half split and Barry Bonds may well end up here if not in jail.
As you can see, there's only two guys on this list that are similar to Duncan -- Cust and Hafner in that they aren't good anywhere defensively, are young, and can rake. Both of them came up through the farm system. Most DH spots are reserved for guys that have lost a step but can still hit (Thomas, Sheffield, Thome, Giambi, Posada). Most of those guys are also solid hitters and aren't particularly streaky. They also take a lot of walks, which Duncan doesn't do. Duncan would have to rake at a plus .930 OPS clip for a whole season before a team is going to be ready to give a ton of talent to get him. If he does that I'd rather keep him.
The only AL teams that might jump at him are Tampa and Seattle. Tampa needs a lefty power bat and have some pitching to trade. Do you honestly think with Johnny Gomes and their stud AAA 3B needing AB's that they would give up a James Shields for Duncan? Seattle needs a DH that has some pop and has a lot of low A and AA pitching prospects. The Cards would have to ask for at least two of them to make the deal work, and why wouldn't the M's just bring up Clement to get AB's at DH when he isn't spelling Johjima and learning to catch at the big league level? We could send him to Texas, but they don't have pitching and the only guy we'd want would be Adrus and we'd be massively overpaying. Even the White Sox WITHOUT Thome wouldn't have offered near that much for Duncan.
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 6:45 PM EST
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interesting evaluation
Anyway my number-crunching (or rather, David Pinto's computer's number crunching ;) included all of his PA's through 31 July. He had a .936 OPS in those 328 PA, and 78 PA against lefties. When you combine that with his 2006 stats, he had a .946 OPS over 644 PA with 128 PA against lefties. I think his current true talent level is well above .900 and if he can stay healthy, which he'd be able to do a lot better as a DH, he has a good chance of exploding one year for a 1.000+ season; the guy is only 26 and will probably get stronger the next 4-5 years.
That's pretty valuable production regardless of whether he plays in the field or not.
by SleepyCA on
Jan 3, 2008 10:30 PM EST
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Also,
by ridgesee on
Jan 3, 2008 4:12 PM EST
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Nope, he never played catcher
by plh903 on
Jan 3, 2008 5:18 PM EST
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Excuuuuuse me!
his father.
by ridgesee on
Jan 3, 2008 8:16 PM EST
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Heh
by plh903 on
Jan 3, 2008 8:42 PM EST
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White Sox connection....!
by cardschinmusic on
Jan 4, 2008 5:01 AM EST
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Right, but
by StanTheManFan on
Jan 4, 2008 9:47 AM EST
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Clement
The deal also includes a club option for '09 also has a lot of incentives based on appearances
by Cardsfaninia on Jan 3, 2008 3:48 PM EST 0 recs
Blanton
by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 3:51 PM EST 0 recs
Matt Clement, Anthony Reyes
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 3, 2008 3:56 PM EST
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Shoulders
What was the prognosis on Reyes? I know he was shut down last year with soreness. Any word about that?
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 3, 2008 4:00 PM EST
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Reyes
by fourstick on
Jan 3, 2008 4:06 PM EST
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Clement
by ChicagoPete on Jan 3, 2008 3:58 PM EST 0 recs
Humm
I would say the Padres got the best deal in the offseason if you go only on potential upside.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 3, 2008 4:01 PM EST
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If costs $1 mil
by aet15 on
Jan 3, 2008 4:09 PM EST
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Clement
Hey aet if he is healthy and it costs 2-3m then it is still a really good deal!(Just have to pray he is healthy.........)
by Calhoun on
Jan 3, 2008 4:18 PM EST
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Sorry,
by aet15 on
Jan 3, 2008 5:09 PM EST
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time machine
by dmb60614 on
Jan 3, 2008 4:24 PM EST
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are the A's ever not in rebuilding mode?
as far as Clement; considering how weak the class was this offseason and what the current market is, i think hes a pretty good acquisition. definitely couldve done worse.
by thedawnraids on Jan 3, 2008 4:05 PM EST 0 recs
ummm. . . . .
What are you referring to 'cause I'm kinda in the dark on this one?
by azruavatar on Jan 3, 2008 4:39 PM EST 0 recs
Statheads
by Eckstreem on
Jan 3, 2008 5:14 PM EST
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Stat for a head
Also not really new thinking as Branch Rickey loved the OBP and SLG.
by lightbulb on
Jan 3, 2008 5:19 PM EST
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I think you're missing my point
I just picked out AZ because he is the most statistically knowlegeable person I know, and he really does appreciate these Swisher-type hitters. He is the champion of the rate-statistic. I was not belittling him in any way. I just meant that he is an astute character who measures players first and foremost by OPS, rate stats, etc.... Swisher fits his mold well as a hitter.
by Eckstreem on
Jan 3, 2008 5:38 PM EST
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..collegiate above avg. EQA,?
by cardschinmusic on
Jan 4, 2008 5:09 AM EST
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Mo is on 1380
Seems content with the pitching staff as is but appears to have the attitude that if they add another pitcher to the team at all, they wouldn't mind it.
Sheesh.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 4:44 PM EST 0 recs
Per Mozeliak...
by cardsrul on Jan 3, 2008 4:51 PM EST 0 recs
Said his top priority on his wish list
Seriously?
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 3, 2008 4:58 PM EST
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What!@#$??
That is crazy talk!
by JMedwick on
Jan 3, 2008 5:06 PM EST
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beautiful
by aet15 on
Jan 3, 2008 5:11 PM EST
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Eh.
And he looks like he has a set of nuts on his chin.
Matt "Chin-Nuts" Clement.
Nice ring to it.
by bukowski on Jan 3, 2008 5:06 PM EST 0 recs
The Cub Fans used to wear...
by TommyBruno on
Jan 3, 2008 5:35 PM EST
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if he dyed it
by bukowski on
Jan 3, 2008 9:25 PM EST
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blue balls
by rocKStark5 on
Jan 4, 2008 1:25 PM EST
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Clement
Anyway, are the rumors true that the Cardinals will be hiring 4 team trainers this season? ;) Between Clement, Carpenter and Mulder, it could be a long season.
Came across a funny article on Jessica Alba, and it has a baseball ring to it! ha
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/01/off-field-fleeces-gofer-hits-jackpot-lands-alba/
by ET90210 on Jan 3, 2008 5:12 PM EST 0 recs
No kiddin'
by Eckstreem on
Jan 3, 2008 5:16 PM EST
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hell we have a utility team
by cm1000 on Jan 3, 2008 5:14 PM EST 0 recs
Dave Dravecky
I could sooooo see that happening to one of our pitchers this year.
by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:19 PM EST 0 recs
Actually'
by ridgesee on
Jan 3, 2008 8:33 PM EST
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That was Dravecky
by k randolph on
Jan 3, 2008 10:11 PM EST
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mlb rumors
by cm1000 on Jan 3, 2008 5:20 PM EST 0 recs
Paletta factor re: Clement
I gotta believe they are holding on to Reyes until they see Clement pitch in ST. If Clement checks out after a few starts, then Reyes is dealt.
BTW, I like the way MO interviews. Calm, collected, but not a stuffed shirt. Can roll with a joke and willing to give an honest answer. I am so done with the TLR method of heavy smoke up one's anus.
by jjray on Jan 3, 2008 5:22 PM EST 0 recs
It is a little known fact that
It's a pooper-scooper, folks.
Just right for all the shit we give him, and all the bullshit reports he gives us.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+does+paletta+mean%3F
No disrespect, Doc.


