Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

The Izzy Conundrum

The Winter of Discontent continues here in Cardinaltown.  Just in case you haven't seen it yet, Tony came out once again, guns a blazin'.  His target this time was Adam Kennedy.  (Although, one could argue his real target was us, since he's essentially threatening us with more Aaron Miles.)  Tony comes out and blasts Kennedy for, among other things, missing the Winter Warmup:  

"...he needs to make sure he dots all the I's, and not coming to this weekend is, I hope, his first and only mistake."  

I can understand Tony's frustration, and I can even understand his bluntness with what he felt was a player who didn't show up in the way the club needed him to.  But is this really the situation the club needs now?  Tony seems to be making a habit of calling players out even more regularly than usual as of late; I'm not sure if he feels he lost the clubhouse last year and is trying to reassert authority, if he feels as if the whole organisation is his to run now that everyone who didn't properly kiss his ass is gone, or if he's just flat out gone batshit.  Honestly, I don't particularly care, either.  Tony, whatever motivational technique it is that you think you're mastering here, I sincerely doubt it's going to work.  Taking a guy to task for bad performance privately?  Okay, good idea.  Writing letters questioning the heart of a player, throwing a fit over a player not showing up for a glorified autograph session, and declaring publicly that you regret giving said player the benefit of the doubt last year?  That I have a little bit of a problem with.  I don't want to go down the road of all the problems I have with LaRussa at this point, but I really do wish he would stop airing all of the club's, and his own, dirty laundry, in public.  I just don't think it's productive, and it's definitely kind of bush league.  More baseball dynasty, less TV Dynasty.  

We also have Albert tossing reporters out of his press conference.  Don't get me wrong, I actually applaud Albert for his stand on this one.  KTVI still refuses to admit any wrongdoing, claiming they were simply reporting what information was out there.  That's fine, you can report the news, but don't send reporters to the man's restaurant and ask them what they think about Albert being a steroid cheat.  I'm fully behind Pujols bringing some small consequences home to them.  Even so, just another very unhappy corner of our baseball world.  

In fact, the only player who seems to be really happy about things is Jason Isringhausen.  During his Winter Warmup press conference, Izzy publicly pronounced, among other things, that he would exercise his no trade clause to block any potential deal.  He also nixed the idea of his retirement being imminent.  

"As long as I do my job, I'll be happy.  I want to stay here."  

All right.  Now, I'm the first guy to applaud a player who genuinely seems to want to play for a specific team.  A player who isn't interested in the typical mercernary behaviour we've come to expect from our athletes is a rare commodity, in my opinion.  It's refreshing.  I'm also at the head of the line to give all the kudos in the world to Izzy.  After some of the nasty things I said about him in 2006, as well as some of the nasty things that I thought but didn't vocalise, I owe it to the man.  He's healthy, and he's proven his worth.  However, with all of those positive, feel good vibrations that I've got going toward Isringhausen, his current stance presents the club with a very sticky situation.  

I think that most of us can agree that the 2008 St. Louis Cardinals are not a great bet to be a real contender.  Lots of people think they could be competitive, and there may be some truth to that.  But even the most optimistic among us have to be aware that it isn't going to be an easy road this season.  The division is rapidly getting better around the Cardinals, and they're in a transition period.  So, we're looking at a team that is a marginal contender, with an eight million dollar closer.  Does a team in that position really need to be spending that on a commodity that will probably be seriously underutilised by the club?  It's a tough question, and one that I'm not really sure I can answer satisfactorily, even just to myself.  

The real conundrum we have here is because of Izzy's absolute desire to play here, and pretty much only here.  Ordinarily, a team that falls out of contention, with an elite closer in the last year of a deal, would be an excellent bet to do one thing and one thing only: trade him.  A top tier closer is a luxury that a non contending team simply doesn't need; the return they can get for such a valuable piece can often go a long way toward turning around the fortunes of a struggling team.  In this case, however, Isringhausen is on record, declaring he won't allow himself to be traded.  Okay, that's fine.  He can just finish out his term here, move on with our everlasting gratitude and best wishes, and the Cardinals can reap the bounty that such a high quality free agent will bring, in the form of the draft picks.  

Hold on.  

See, this is where this situation gets really interesting.  Izzy has proven, by words and actions, that he really doesn't have any real desire to go anywhere else.  Given that fact, if the Cards really wanted to expunge him from the payroll at the end of the year, can they possibly risk offering him arbitration?  To me, the answer is no.  I think, if you offer Izzy arbitration, he'll just accept it.  I think he would be happy to get paid market value for his services, while continuing to play where he wants to be.  If the Cards really didn't want him back for 2009, they can't offer him arbitration.  Of course, that means they don't get the draft picks that would help them bring in the players to turn this ship around.  So, at this point, it looks to me as if the Cardinals flat out cannot get rid of Izzy, if they hope to get any kind of return at all for his departure.  If you offer him arb., with the hope of reaping the draft pick bounty, he accepts.  If you really want to get him off the books, you have to accept that you're going to get absolutely nothing for him.  

So, what course of action can the Cardinals possibly pursue?  Should they keep Izzy around?  He does appear to be healthy, and when he's healthy, he's still a hell of a closer.  On the other hand, they do have a whole lot of bullpen arms coming along very soon, including a couple who look as if they could definitely be closer candidates.  Do they let him walk?  At that point, they get absolutely nothing.  Bupkes. &nbspNot even draft picks.  What say you, denizens of Viva El Birdos?  

Personally, I would argue for keeping Izzy around.  It's strange for me to be arguing in this direction.  I'm usually all about making the most extreme moves you can to get younger and cheaper; I think these half assed rebuilding jobs tend to end up leading to years of in between, mediocre or worse teams.  And, as I said earlier, the kind of drain that Izzy puts on a payroll is hard to justify for a team on the fringes of contention.  So why do I feel this way?  

I love the Cards' bullpen prospects.  I really do.  I think they've got several guys who could step in and do a very nice job this second, and they're only going to get better.  But what's the problem with Chris Perez being a setup man for awhile?  Or Jason Motte handling the seventh, rather than the eighth?  To my mind, absolutely nothing.  I have a tough time justifying to myself the financial outlay for Isringhausen, but I also think that a bullpen, composed of those kinds of terrifying arms, could go a long way toward making the team competitive.  A bullpen that can shut down literally the last three or even four innings can make a starting rotation look a whole lot better than it actually is.  To me, this is the sort of bet-hedging that could actually work out beautifully for the team in the next few years.  Particularly once you take out the salaries the Cards are paying to the Russ Springers and Franklinsteins of the world and replace them with affordable, early arbitration year salaries, suddenly the bullpen isn't a huge investment anymore.  If Izzy is really as serious as he sounds about staying here in St. Louis, then he should be signable for a reasonable deal.  I'm not saying you lowball him out of the negotiating room, but he shouldn't be looking to break the bank if he's that passionate about staying.  

To me, keeping a guy like Izzy around to provide stability and solidity at the back end of a bullpen isn't a bad thing.  It's a luxury this team may not necessarily need this year, or even next, but if the alternative is watching such a talented ballplayer walk away without getting anything in return for him, I don't have a problem with putting gold rims on a Pinto.  

At the very least, we'll know there's at least one guy who's really happy to be here.  

Next week, I think I'm going to start profiling some of the players we may be looking at when the Cards make their pick in the June draft.  I'm not going to do them all at once, so I want to get started on them pretty soon.  

One last thing.  I met a gypsy not too long ago, and I totally stole her crystal ball from her.  As a result, I'm going to start looking into the future, once a week, and see what's on the horizon for our favourite baseball team.  So, without further ado, I present,

Great Moments in Redbirds Future History!  

August 12, 2008  
A rash of athlete's foot is reported among the players.  It is eventually traced back to Jason LaRue, and he is fined $50 by the team's kangaroo court and ordered to buy new shower shoes for the team.  He sheepishly does so, and laughs are shared by all.  Over the following days, all thirteen players who have caught the fungus visit team doctor George Paletta to get a prescription for some cream to knock it out.  Sadly, there are no survivors.  

This has been a Great Moment in Redbird Future History.  

Today's tournament of champions results are directly below.

0 recs  |  Comment 123 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Make it stop
I about lost my shit when I read the "to the detriment of a guy like Aaron Miles."  
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Jan 23, 2008 10:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

well
in tony's defense, that was a fairly legit statement last year.  kennedy sucked that bad.  we can only hope the same thing does NOT happen in 2008.

by moboiler on Jan 23, 2008 10:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Me Too
Aaron Miles getting significant playing time is a sign something has gone wrong. Saying someone got in the way of that occurring is a very odd statement.

by tarakas on Jan 23, 2008 10:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just have
one question... when did Tony become Grandpa Simpson? I fully expect him to start telling people to get off his lawn.
"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it."

by cardsrul on Jan 23, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

grandpa tony
Marge: "There are only 49 stars on that flag."

Grampa: "I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by Fitz on Jan 23, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Detriment of Aaron Miles
What about the detriment of the Cards young MI prospects?
I'm starting to lean toward the batshit assesment, and I'm a TRL guy, at least I was but I've sent the jury back out.

by That's a Winner on Jan 23, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm also a TRL guy
Carson Daly is soooo dreamy....
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Jan 23, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Izzy plays well
I'd offer him arbitration in a minute.  He says he wants to stay a Cardinal but if he's offered 1 year here vs. 3 somewhere else, his loyalty will likely change.  Even if it doesn't, Izzy on a 1 year deal is likely a very good deal, assuming he plays well.  As long as he's very good, and is willing to accept a 1 year deal in arbitration, I'd keep offering it.  

I really believe, however, that someone will offer him at least 3 years at the end of the season.  

by chuckb on Jan 23, 2008 10:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree...
if we're okay with signing him long-term, then where's the danger?  Offer him arbitration; if he accepts sign him for 1-3 years.  If not...hello draft picks.
Thanks for the highlight moments 15 and 27!!!

by cardzfanbub on Jan 23, 2008 10:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
If Perez is ready to close, which is a bit of a maybe, can't you tell him that he will be the setup man in 2009 if he accepts?

If not, we'll still need a closer. If he performs well enough to keep type A status, then you either have him for another year or get the picks. If he drops to B, then maybe it's moot.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By that first
part, I'm assuming that would make him less likely to stay, coupled with a market offer to be someone's closer.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we can only hope
that pujols takes his frustrations with ktvi out on the field.  every grooved fastball has a big ol' "2" on it.

by moboiler on Jan 23, 2008 10:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Izzy's body has rarely passed up
any opportunity to break down.  It will break down again, this year, thus changing the whole situation. This is a problem that will likely solve itself.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 23, 2008 10:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I SO hope you are right
he's a nice person, but I don't want him on my team.  He makes me smoke too much.
I don't call protecting a 2-run lead... by giving up a walk and a few hits and a run, only to be bailed out by some defensive gem from Yadi or Pooh or someone else... as being the work of a "closer."

by the Tewk on Jan 23, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear you......
While it may not be that visible to us, from all small news items Ive put together over the years  based on situations where Isringhausen was discussed by other players, he is considered to be "the guy"...

To most he looks like the last guy on the block to be the jock, but the bullpen and position players look up to this guy and the way he guts it out, no exceptions I can see.

He's one of the focal team leaders no matter how many times he puts us thru 9th inning hell, hes out there to do one thing and thats win, come hell, high water or hip injury yada yada.

Also, I wouldnt take any talk about his no trade clause too seriously if the Cards are fighting to hold 4th place in Aug and the first place Yanks (insert other winner here) come knocking.

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Jan 24, 2008 8:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well it worked for the Blues
Both Keith Tkachuk and Doug Weight had expressed the desire to stay in St. Louis during the rebuilding years.  The Blues GM (Larry Pleau) saw the chance to improve the club via trade and the chance to give the players a shot at the Cup.  The blues traded Weight at the trade deadline in the last year of his contract and then resigned that off-season ASAP (weight refused to sign anywhere until he heard from STL).  The following year Pleau did the same thing with Tkachuk.

I don't know how different the FA structure is in Hockey as apposed to Baseball, but it worked for the Blues.  I am sure there was some communications between the parties (it's not player tampering if it happens before the player leave your organization.)  

Maybe Izzy would be interested in it, never hurts to ask.

by Stan and Slaughter on Jan 23, 2008 10:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like this one!!
especially if we end up in the bottom half of the league and therefore, don't have to give up our number one pick.

If Izzy is healthy all year he will surely be a type A.

Thanks for the highlight moments 15 and 27!!!

by cardzfanbub on Jan 23, 2008 10:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the problem is
You're taking his words at face value. I believe he made similar statements during the beginning of last season, only to change his mind and say he'd be open to being traded to a contender later when things weren't going so hot. Winning (and conversely, losing) can do wonders for your mind-set. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of trading him if the cardinals are sucking it up mid-season.

by Birds on the Matt on Jan 23, 2008 10:41 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually,
if I remember correctly, during Spring Training last year, Isringhausen made a lot of statements to the effect that, "it just isn't the same here as it was," and, "I see it as much more of a business now," due to the fan base's less than favourable reactions to him at the end of 2006.  I don't have links; maybe someone else will take the time to run them down.  But he seemed decidedly lukewarm toward St. Louis and it's people last spring.  

Again, I don't have links, but I believe there was talk about moving him at the trade deadline last season, which he nixed.  He told management he would exercise his no trade clause to avoid being moved.  

I won't swear that my memory is correct, and I don't have the time to look it up right now, but I think his actions last year supported the things he's saying now.  

Nobody puts Baby in the corner.

by the red baron on Jan 23, 2008 10:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your memory
is accurate. I recall those statements as well. He seemed pretty disillusioned over all the booing. But it's also true that Izzy does possess one of the most essential mental factors needed to be a successful closer--a short memory concerning past games. After last year put him back on the map, the cheers returned and so did his love of The Lou. I agree that keeping him is better than getting nothing. And who knows what factors may change his mind again.

by rockin redbird on Jan 23, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to lean toward
the school of thought that TLR has indeed gone batshit crazy. Bush league PR management that has done nothing but damage relationships.
Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jan 23, 2008 10:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Astros (Circa 2001?)
I would love to see the Cardinals bullpen become the Astros bullpens of the early 2000's.

In 2001, they had Billy Wagner in his prime saving 39 games while finishing 58.  They also had Dotel for the 8th (with a better ERA+ than Wagner) and Powell and Cruz for the 7th (I believe) both pitching well.

In 2002, they had Wagner, again being set up by Dotel.  Also, Tom Gordon and Ricky Stone were in the pen with good ERA+ and decent peripherals.

In 2003, Wagner was probably had his best season with the Stros.  Perhaps not coincidentally, his setup men that year also had great seasons.  Dotel set him up mainly in the 8th.  They had Lidge and Miceli, along with Stone having great years setting up in both the 7th and 8th.  It was a beautiful thing to watch...if only you were an Astro fan.  :(  sigh

In 2004, Lidge was the closer now and had a tremendous year.  Dotel stuck around as a sometimes closer, sometimes setup man.  Miceli got promoted because he pitched so well in 2003 and was a primary setup man.  Then, Qualls and Wheeler jumped onto the scene and were good as well.

If they Cardinals could get a few men (Franklin, Springer, Perez, Motte, Kinney, etc.) to pitch very well in the 8th and 7th, thus getting to Izzy...not only could the Cardinals have a decent season, but they could look well set up for the future with a stable bullpen.

stlfan

Of course, that gets us to another problem of getting to the setup men in the pen with the rotation that we could be putting together.

by stlfan on Jan 23, 2008 10:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

How does TLR saying this benefit the team
in any way?  These mind games that he engages in are either juvenile or arrogant.  Call Adam Kennedy, talk to him about the issue, resolve it behind closed doors.  Don't air your dirty laundry like that -- it's unbecoming for a HoF manager to act like that.  Didn't this type of behavior create an untenable situation with another player within the last month?  It's obvious that TLR has free reign and Bill DeWitt's ear because I can't imagine that most GMs would allow their manager to say something like that publicly.

re: Miles
Anyone who didn't see shit like this coming when he was re-signed was being too optimistic.  For whatever reason, TLR doesn't (appear to) have a realistic interpretation of Aaron Miles skillset.  We'll see him receive another 400+ ABs and the disagreement over his value to the club will continue here.

Remind me again why we re-signed TLR?  

by azruavatar on Jan 23, 2008 10:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

az
Do you know he DIDNT call Kennedy personally? Also, Im guessing he responded to a question about Kennedy. Someone asks about Kennedy, Tony answers honestly.

I find it funny that people think guys just randomly call up media people and say things. It's almost always in response to a question.

So if Tony is unhappy with Kennedy he's not supposed to say it? But then the same fans get mad that Tony isn't forthcoming with us. Again, we have no idea if/when Tony called Adam personally.

The standards get so confusing to me. Is he or is he not supposed to answer questions honestly when asked by a reporter? Or should he run it by us first, then decide how to answer.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't care
I think what Tony did was fine.  He was probably ansering a question about where is Adam Kennedy.  I assume there was something stating he would be there and he was not there.

Adam is a big boy, if he has a reason for not attending he will tell the media.  Maybe he should have alerted the team as to why he was not going to be there.  Maybe he did alert the team and no one told TLR.

Kennedy was horrible last year and I really don't see what he will give to the team his final two years of his contract.  I figure he is blocking Ryan and Hoffpauir from an opportunity to play.  Why is Adam Kennedy in 2009 going to help the team?  Heck 2008 seems to be a wash so how does Kennedy help in 2008?

I did not know Kennedy would be this bad but I did wonder the day of the signing why the Cards picked him up.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 23, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your right, I don't know whether he
called AK first.  If he did, kudos.  But, if he did, my question then becomes why does he feel the need to air things out in public?

We do, at this point, have a pretty good historical comparison with Rolen where those two individuals created such a toxic environment that one of them had to leave.  I don't think anyone can deny that that was a two person problem and TLR's comments to the media only exacerbated the situation.  Maybe TLR and Kennedy get along a lot better -- again, I don't know.  

The problem I have is that TLR seems to lack a basic level of tact when answering some of these questions.  If you find the right button to push that day, he'll give you an honest answer but at times it comes across as petty.  I'd like for him to be honest about questions but you can do that without throwing people under the bus as well.

by azruavatar on Jan 23, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"the same fans"
I don't think they are the same groups of fans.  I think there are two positions held by fans who strongly care about what goes on inside the organization- some fans feel they have a right to information about what goes on inside the clubhouse, and therefore TLR should be more forthcoming.  Others feel that TLR airs too much dirty laundry and uses the press to do dirty work that a phone call or fine could take care of.  

Our entertainment dollars pay their salaries, so both are legitimate points.  However, the same people don't usually take both positions, though there is no dissonance in simultaneously thinking TLR should talk less and that DeWitt etc should be more forthcoming, or in thinking that DeWitt should talk less and TLR should be more forthcoming, or that UFO's are actually time masheens.  

"My other option was to go hunting dogs and cats with Scott Rolen." - TLR

by SleepyCA on Jan 23, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Excuse me, but.....
"it's unbecoming for a HoF manager to act like that."

and

"I can't imagine that most GMs would allow their manager to say something like that publicly"

Earl Weaver, Dick Williams, Leo Durocher, John McGraw, and Casey Stengel all beg to differ.

So do Whitey Herzog and Billy Martin.

by flynn on Jan 23, 2008 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

7 people now constitute "most"
If you were a manager of 30 workers and you were having issues with one of them, do you think it would be appropriate to denigrate that individual in front of the other 30?  How about in front of your clients or shareholders?

That's essentially what's happening here.  It is unbecoming.  It is unecessary.  And most importantly, it's detrimental to the Cardinals.

by azruavatar on Jan 23, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sure
it would be appropriate if the worker wasn't responding to any other attempts at dealing with the  problem. Sometimes bosses need to take things a step further.

Coaches denegrate players in front of other players all the time. Nothing new there. None of us know how the Kennedy/TLR relationship has gone in the past....that makes it tough to know really whats going on.

At least tough for me anyway.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Coach does not equal business supervisor
This is sports, isn't it?  If you have a problem with a coach or manager "denigrating" a player in front of his teammates then I suppose you have a problem with the majority of all coaches in all sports at pretty much every level above T-ball, since that happens at most every practice and game.  At least that's what I've experienced and seen.  
Your perogative, of course.    

As for taking it to the press, that's been an avenue taken by managers, including the HOFers listed above, for years.  Obviously in the view of HOF voters, those managers' actions weren't so detrimental as to keep them from winning a ton of games and gaining entrance to Cooperstown.

On the GM quote  - not exactly the same topic, so it shouldn't have been lumped in with the HOF manager quip.  (I'm saying my bad here, not yours.)    
 

by flynn on Jan 23, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TLR is coming out to the public
and saying that a part of their product is acting in a deficient manner.  It's not a hard analogy to make to envision him as a sales rep or something who goes out and says, "We have this great product except for this one piece that is currently acting up."  Does that make any sense to you?

And I have to wonder if you've ever had a job before where the manager goes around slamming people all the time.  I have -- it didn't encourage me to work any harder.  It did create a lot of hostility and resentment between the manager and other employees.  Do you really envision a situation where Tony goes to AK about this and AK blows him off but when Tony says this to the press AK suddenly goes, "Well, I'm convinced. I'll try and do better."  That sounds foolhardy to me.

by azruavatar on Jan 23, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as someone who
CRINGED when Tony was re-signed for two more years, I should be jumping on this heavy.
However, I can't get over the over-whelming fact that Adam Kennedy sucked horribly and gave ME every sign (watching him) that he will continue to suck.

A part of me (perhaps illogically) wants Tony to be even tougher.  But NOT by inveighing about AK missing some social event.

How about Tony having the yarbels to tell the GM/owner, "we can't win with AK at 2b -- DO something."

by the Tewk on Jan 23, 2008 7:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hurt feelings, big winners
This is obviously something that people all over this board are going round and round on so I'm not going to try and change your mind.  I just think there are too many differences between the dynamics of a professional sports team in 2008 and those of the "normal" workplace to make the analogy you propose.  I understand the analogy, I just don't buy it.  

And, in the spirit of backing up a point with proof that we love so much around here, I submit again the HOF managers (and many other non-HOF, but successful managers) who have utilized the technique of calling out players to the press.  These guys made a few enemies along the way, but their teams won a lot of games and championships, which are all that really matter to most fans.  

by flynn on Jan 23, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely agree
Tony only has a year or 2 left with the team so he's going to kick some ass and take names later.  Remeber, he wants to win no matter what type of scraps he's given.  I am glad he's trying to light a fire under people's asses who aren't playing to their ability.  Kennedy is on a short leash and I'm pretty sure everyone will be happy about that.  

by RonGant on Jan 23, 2008 7:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't get me wrong
I'd love to see better production out of 2nd base.  But Tony isn't chiding Adam for not hustling or beating out a ground ball; he's publicly embarrassing him because he didn't show up to an autograph session.  Adam should have been there, and it pisses me off when players don't take an interest or give back to the community that supports them.  I just didn't like the way it was handled, in terms of publicity, venom, etc.

And that's my last post on the subject.

by Ray Lankford on Jan 23, 2008 8:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In Three Nights in August
didn't TLR say managers should address problems with players privately, and not through the press? I don't have the book with me at work, but I'm pretty sure that was in there.

If so, he is failing to follow his own standards. And TLR is all about following standards of behavior and principles--that is usually one of his strengths--so that makes this particularly disturbing.

by tarakas on Jan 23, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I applaud Tony L....
...for finally becoming a manager that holds players accountable for their performance (or lack thereof) on the field, even if it means calling them out in the media. I have no problems with that. Whatever leads to greater production.

For years he'd continually pencil in Scott Rolen as the 4 or 5 in the lineup even after consistent disappearances in September and October (including multiple hitless performances in the playoffs) when alternatives to him hitting in such important spots existed.   He finally held him accountable in 2006, benched him, which promptly lit a fit under his a$$ and eventually led to a productive Scott Rolen and a championship.  

And Scott Rolen didn't handle it well. Too bad. He hit well, the team won and Rolen should have been satisified with the team's success. He wasn't.  Not sorry to see him go.

Kudos to Tony. Sometimes I wonder if he took on this philosphy the cardinals would have more than 1 championship during his reign.

by yargs on Jan 23, 2008 11:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Accountability vs. Public Embarrassment
I am all for accountability, but this is something that can be taken care of "in house."  Holding someone accountable in front of the media and fans seems more like an attempt to embarrass.

by Ray Lankford on Jan 23, 2008 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok then
How do you know that LaRussa didn't contact Kennedy when he knew he wasn't going to be there?  I don't get the flame war on LaRussa for this one...the guy was fucking HORRIBLE last year in every phase of the game and then decides to blow off the first team event in 2008?  He obviously needs a kick in the head and maybe killing him in the press is the only way to get it done.  Remember, it was Rolen who started with the press in 2006 during the NLCS, not Tony.

I think Tony is looking for players who "want to be here".  Missing a chance to mingle with fans and talk to the press is codetalk for "I don't care about the team or the team's image".  On a younger, rebuilding ballclub you'd like to think that your veterans would set a nice example for the younger guys in how to be a professional, and Kennedy certainly didn't do that by missing this event.

As far as the threatening of Aaron Miles getting more playing time, go look at his numbers side by side with Kennedy last year and tell me that Kennedy was better for the ballclub.  If Eckstein doesn't get hurt, Kennedy is riding the damn pine the entire second half of the season.  I agree that the playing time SHOULD be going to younger players like Ryan and Hoffpauir, and hopefully someone will be in Tony's ear about stuff like that this season (I'm staring a hole in you Mo!).

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 23, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fourstick
Fans know this. Just ask them. And heck, Miles WAS better than Kennedy last year. I realize some people have a weird hatred of Aaron Miles but, compared to Kennedy, he was better.

Every single statistical analysis will show you that.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't care
If Tony did call him before making the public comments.  It should have stayed an in house matter.  I'm not trying to roast Tony in a flame war -- simply saying its unprofessional to call a guy out in public with or without a previous private phone call.  In the same breath, however, its also unprofessional to not show up at the winter warm-up, a charity event where players can show appreciation to the fans.  Bad move, A.K.

I guess I just disagree with your assertion that "well, because Kennedy was 'fucking HORRIBLE' last year, lambasting him in the media is OK because he needs a 'kick in the head.'"  Yeah, he was horrible.  But I wouldn't advocate publicly bashing an underperforming player for every miss-step they take -- that simply kills morale.  

by Ray Lankford on Jan 23, 2008 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ray
How should Tony have answered questions like "Tony, where is Adam Kennedy?" "Tony, why isn't Adam Kennedy at the Winter Warmup when everyone else is?"

I'm not arguing--just seeing how you feel he should respond to the questions.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The perfect response
to the question was: "I'm not sure where Adam was, but I'm sure he had a good reason.  He'll be ready for spring training and a successful season."

Then, as soon as Tony is done, Tony calls up AK and says: "Where the F#$% are you boyo?  Get your head right.  You're a g'd StL Cardinal and we expect more from you."

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 23, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yours is exactly the right response.
I worked retail 20 long, hellish years.  When you call out an employee in front of the customers, it makes the employee look bad, it makes you look bad, and most of all, it makes the company look bad, all in front of customers, competitors, and potential future employees.  I've always been amazed that LaRussa would act this way.  It's completely unprofessional, and the fact that Kennedy may have been acting unprofessional doesn't make it right.  

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 23, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh please
I hate it when people compare baseball players to retail employees.  Kennedy doesn't work for Tony, he works for the organization.  He's under contract -- he doesn't get paid by the hour.  He makes millions of dollars, paid by US, to play a game 6 months out of the year.  Tony just decides whether he plays or not, but he has absolutely no bearing into whether Adam gets a paycheck.

When you're working at Wal-Mart there isn't press constantly around to ask you questions about why you don't have enough cashiers or why your deli market guys isn't here to be interviewed and sign autographs.  If you rip a bad employee in front of customer it does look unprofessional, when that employee isn't taking care of the customer and treating them unprofessionally you should step in and say something right?  Not showing up to fan friendly activities isn't taking care of the customers, us.  It's also not in the player's  best interest and they ought to know questions like those asked of TLR are going to be asked if they don't show up.  Had Kennedy released a statement saying he couldn't be there for personal reasons I'm fine with that.  He didn't, and that makes it look like he just doesn't care.  That's the essence of being unprofessional.  

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 23, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ball players are people.
They are highly competitive people with large, delicate egos.  Yes, they make lots of money.  That's no reason to treat them unprofessionally, or with a complete lack of respect.

Kennedy is not the first Cardinal who has been called out in the media--try Rolen, Edmonds, Encarnacion, Lankford, Marquis, Wells, Reyes, Rodriquez, and on and on and on.

Maybe there's a reason the Cards haven't been able to sign any top notch free agents the last couple of years.

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 23, 2008 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well that's some faulty logic...
St. Louis has always been known as a player friendly town, I don't think TLR is changing that at all.  No big time free agents huh?  How about resigning Albert and Carpenter for less than they would have made on the open market?  I'd say those are pretty good signings.  Obviously they wouldn't have signed Carpenter if they knew he was going to get hurt, but hindsight is always 20/20Face it, the club isn't going to spend like the Yankees, BoSox, and Mets to field a team.    

You are making way too much out of this situation.  Look at the reaction Tony had for Rick when he came up and belted a home run in his first weekend with the ballclub.  Look at how he helped to shield Rick from the criticism surrounding the NY Times article implicating him in the PED scandal.   He backs his players as much as he rips them, that's the sign of a good coach and a good motivator.  He simply said "I'm disappointed he's not here.  This is a statement we make to our fans: 'Thanks for coming out' and he's not here."  Tony lives on the West Coast, makes less money than Kennedy and he showed up.  Why shouldn't Kennedy do the same thing?

Outside of Scott Rolen, can you name one player who has publicly stated that he couldn't stand playing for Tony LaRussa?  Remember also that Scott Rolen's pissed away two relationships with manager's up to this point in his career.  He's 2 for 2!  If we're going to talk about facts than stick with them.  

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 24, 2008 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ozzie Smith. Ron Gant.
They're also two more examples of players that LaRussa ripped in the media.  

All the things you say about LaRussa taking care of Ankiel are true.  I also happen to think that, at his best, he's a brilliant and innovative field manager.  That doesn't excuse his unprofessional habit of ripping his own players in the media.

As far as players not badmouthing LaRussa to the media--just turns out they're more professional about that sort of thing than he is.  I remember when the Ron Gant debacle was going on, a reporter asked Brian Jordan (then with the Braves) for a comment on LaRussa.  His response was something like, "No way I'm bad-mouthing LaRussa--I may want to play in St. Louis again some day."    

by Archaeopteryx on Jan 24, 2008 9:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
That is the perfect response.

I'm not arguing either, beano, but I just don't think that being asked a question is an excuse for an unprofessional response.  We might disagree on whether Tony's response was unprofessional, but we can agree (I think) that quite a bit of posturing goes on with the public statements of the organization.  ("we are going to be competitive," "this team will compete now," "Rolen and Tony have patched things up," "Mulder should be ready to return to 2004 form")  Tony should have addressed this situation in a similar manner -- less venom is all I'd like to see.  Simply saying "I don't know where Adam is but I'm sure he has a good reason for not being here" conveys the point subtly without conveying embarrassment.  

Of course, we wouldn't be having this discussion if Adam had fulfilled his obligations and shown up like the rest of the team.

by Ray Lankford on Jan 23, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
Although sometimes people respond to an individual one on one thing. However, maybe others need to be called out in public to get them motivated.

I don't know where Kennedy falls. Im just pointing out the other option. Maybe all the "one on one" stuff wasn't working with AK and now its time to move to Plan B.

In the end, none of us know enough about the situation really.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don Tony
I really don't understand how we can denigrate Tony for being honest with the press.  We just spent most of 2006 and '07 bitching about the lack of candor from the front office.  I distinctly remember everyone lauding Billy Beane for being honest with the press and admitting that the A's were rebuilding.  

Tony stepped up to the plate and let his feelings be known publicly.  Great!  We know how he feels.  Maybe AK deserved a good public butt-chewing.  I have had my butt chewed in front of teammates before.  I have watched my coaches eat guys alive in front of my teams before.  It may not be the management style that I PREFER, but it definately works.  It is a great way to find out where a player's heart is.  Some players will just wilt.  Others will "man-up".  You have to know who you are dealing with.  I have dealt, as a coach, with several very talented but unmotivated players.  Eventually the last straw is to publicly chew them out.  If you don't, your team and your fan base will begin to question your leadership skills.  It is a great way to tell your players "Hey, shit or get off the pot!".  

I argue that if the player feels demeaned and pouts after a public butt-chewing, then you really didn't want them on your team.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 23, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

being honest?
Being honest doesn't mean calling out the player through the media.

An honest response could be "I'm not sure where Adam is, I'll have to ask him."

No one is objecting to TLR talking to AK within the team context. It's his taking it public---yet again adding to these public soap operas that he seems all too willing to breathe life into---that some are objecting to.

It's like screaming at your kid in the mall in front of everyone instead of taking him back to the car to chew him out. That's not honesty, that's poor leadership.

by salvomania on Jan 23, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fully agree
Maybe I'm becoming Japanese or just mellowing with age, but going public with your criticisms represents the nuclear option, IMO. You only do it you want to make a public statement that you have lost faith in the relationship. In general, backing someone into a corner won't get you the result you hope for, if your hope is something other than alienating the object of your pronouncement. I have tried both approaches (public vs. private) as a manager and a husband, I am completely sold on the private approach--if your goal is to change behavior.

by Hungry Jack on Jan 23, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

love your post, hj...
and I whole-heartedly agree..." if your goal is to change behavior "

But it crystallized this evil thought (altho' a pleasant one too, for me) I have been having.  Namely, what if LaRussa wants to get rid of Kennedy?

For that matter what if he wanted to get rid of Rolen?

Maybe some of us are psyching these cases out too much.  Maybe Tony is more oblique and foxy than we imagine; that is, maybe he ISN'T being listened to by GM/owner as much as it often assumed, and he (Tony) has to resort to more nefarious procedures to get what he wants.

May be crazy, but it's a thought.

by the Tewk on Jan 23, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But was AK
seriously the only Cardinal that didn't show up for the winter warm-up? I don't live in St. Louis, so I have no idea, but I'd doubt if he was alone.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 23, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re-signing TLR
was the biggest error of the offseason. If the organization wants to rebuild or get younger he's the wrong guy. I am not a TLR hater- I think he's a great manager for a veteran club. But what we've seen is his power bring about the mediocre veteranization of the roster. Does the organization really have a plan? If they do, I can't make it out.

by vinniefromjersey on Jan 23, 2008 11:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Motivation a la LaRussa
I'm pretty sure TLR is going by the numbers on this one.  He probably has something on his little stats card that says, "Kennedy 4-for-7 in 2007 after sassin' him to the papers.  Remember to do this early and often in 2008."

by lightbulb on Jan 23, 2008 11:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Genius
I can't top this, so I'll just say "Well done, sir!"
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jan 23, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kennedys reaction?

 Well I haven't seen any reaction from Adam on TLR's comments. Hopefully he won't over react. Now that Glaus is at 3rd I really didn't want to throw out my "Ex Angels in the Infield" sign that I worked so hard on last year!
CliffNotes

by CliffNotes on Jan 23, 2008 11:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Terry Francona
who has a variety of personalities in his clubhouse and INTENSE media coverage doesn't do that.

Can't think of any other managers who successfully embarassed their players into playing better during the off-season.

Tony...Tony...Tony...why? Why? WHY?  

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 23, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yeah
And you follow every other team as closely as you follow the Cardinals.

To compare how "our" manager does something compared to another is tough to do because we don't follow the "others" as closely as we do ours. I think this is a fair statement and it makes it tough to be objective.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You have a point.
Duly noted, and perhaps it was a poor comparison.

Allow me to paraphrase your point to add a moment of levity to the discussion.,

"Since everybody's asshole smells different, you only can really recognize your own."

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 23, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

amen
brother.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tony is teaching ...

... to the youngsters, He wants to be sure thay hear him. By saying this, he is loudly saying that the 2b job is there to be taken by the best player, not by the highest contract player. Of course, by his definition of best.

I'm with him on this, but only of he sticks with Hoff or Ryan and not with Miles...

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Jan 23, 2008 12:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He could have said that to the clubhouse
and just stayed shut up to the media. It's entirely possible.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 23, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

would the effect
be the same? I don't know. He's accountable for that, the results will speak the truth.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Jan 23, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izzy
I guess my primary concern is that some of the younger bullpen arms get an extended look this year, so that a more informed decision on Izzy can be made in 09'.  I'm not sure if that will happen or not.  I hope so.  

There's certainly a case to be made to have a respected vet in place to show the young arms the way to handle themselves in 09'.  I really don't know how Izzy is in the clubhouse, but I guess I assume he's pretty good and could be a help to the young arms.

A lot of this will hopefully work itself out during the season.  We'll have a better idea come August vs. now.  As it stands now a solid case for either side could be made, and Red Baron kinda did just that in his most excellent diary.  

by Merry CRasmus on Jan 23, 2008 12:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

interesting point
"really don't know how Izzy is in the clubhouse"

Does Izzy even speak?  From what little I know, he seems like a drip, to me.  However, I would still qualify as a member of the jury on this... because I can't recall having a perception of his "clubhouse" value one way or the other.

Perhaps he has that 'quiet respect' thing going?

by the Tewk on Jan 23, 2008 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All of the
"Bullpen Brats" from the 06 postseason, especially Wainwright, gave Izzy the main credit for guiding them through their run and keeping their heads on straight. Ditto about how to get through losing Hancock last season -- he talked to the younger guys about how they got throgh '03 after losing Kile.

I'd say Izzy is one of the main leaders on the team, and the man when it comes to the bullpen.

Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 23, 2008 10:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DFA Kennedy?
In light of these comments...what are the odds that Kennedy is DFA'd by season's end?  If he's not helping the team, what's the point of putting him on the DL?
Thanks for the highlight moments 15 and 27!!!

by cardzfanbub on Jan 23, 2008 1:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

chances are low imho
In reality TLR is in a very bad position with guys like AK.  AK will still get paid the same even if he doesn't do anything in 2008 or 2009.  Where's his motivation?  A guy like this has to be self-motivated, and embarrassing him may be the only way to make that happen.

Still, this looks to me like they are building a foundation (in the minds of casual fans) for DFA'ing him, and those who point out the "leadership implications" of something like this have a very valid point.  Players likely lose respect for TLR when he takes something like this public, but he may not have much left to lose at this point.  

The other side of THAT coin is that AK hasn't been pulling his weight; for all we know the players have lost patience with AK too and are standing behind TLR 100%.

"My other option was to go hunting dogs and cats with Scott Rolen." - TLR

by SleepyCA on Jan 23, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no survivors!
that gave me a hearty laugh.
i look forward to more great moments in redbird future history.  

i also agree that keeping izzy, even with an 8-10 mil salary is good on all accounts especially the mentoring aspect.

by mdarshan on Jan 23, 2008 1:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Future
I agree--I really can't wait to see more of the future!

by Cardinal70 on Jan 23, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy
TLR does some things that I don't agree with.  This isn't really one of those things.  Not that anybody was rushing to see Adam Kennedy, but he should have shown up nonetheless.  It doesn't matter how popular he is with fans.  Reyes had a real bad year too, and he showed up and answered some questions.  The young guy seems to get it, but the veteran doesn't.  If he doesn't realize that he is in a tenuous spot, then there really isn't much hope for him.  He shouldn't need it spelled out for him, but it looks to me like he does, and Tony obliged.  He should show up to a team function like this if his head was in the right place.  Or at the very least, give a good reason why he couldn't show.  He did neither apparently.  

Also, this contradicts the "Tony likes vets" mindset.  Tony likes vets that perform, no doubt.  Vets that are struggling run into problems with him just like youngsters that are struggling do.  Maybe more so.  He's held Gant, Martinez, Rolen, and now maybe Kennedy to the fire.  

Tony has his faults.  I agree with those who are worried Miles is the guy who will benefit most if Kennedy stays on the bench.  And I don't think thats the best approach to take.  I agree that he doesn't need to keep continuously sticking little jabs to Rolen either. It's petty and unnecessary.  But calling out Kennedy for blowing off a team function seems very appropriate to me.

by Merry CRasmus on Jan 23, 2008 1:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Here's what you do with Izzy
If....IF the Cardinals aren't competitors near the trade deadline, and I assume they may not be, you take Izzy asside and explain to him that it would be the best thing for this organization he loves so much to trade him for some younger talent.  Then....you tell him that you would be willing to bring him back next year for a league average salary.  

For all you Blues fans out there, you'll remember that the Note did this with Doug Weight one year and then with Keith Tkachuk the next.  We traded them at the deadline, but because they were so loyal to the team, they came back and signed smaller contracts before the next season.

Seeing how loyal Izzy is to this team and to TLR, this might just be a situation that could work for the Cardinals.  And hell, I wouldn't mind resigning Izzy next year for a league average salary.  I also think that this is something the organization would do for him.

Thoughts???

"And that's a winner. A World Series winner for the Cardinals."

by Bird Watcher on Jan 23, 2008 1:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't buy this
while it sounds nice for the Cardinals, you are basically telling Izzy to take a hike for a few months and then take a paycut for next year.

You have to give alittle to get something.  They are giving him nothing in that equation.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 23, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

like Hardcore said,
I wouldn't say to someone I'm about to trade away: "oh, but we'll be willing to pay you around LEAGUE AVERAGE next year." That doesn't exactly say "we appreciate your services."
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 23, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

total compensation
i don't remember if his deal was at or below market for a closer, but i would be willing to wager that in his negotiations, he sacrificed dollars in order to get that no-trade clause.  he wanted it; he got it; he deserves to keep it.  

the cards made that decision when they put their name on the contract a few years ago.  they shouldn't get to renege just because it turned out to be a bad decision.

by birdsonthebat on Jan 23, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izzy is a 5-10 guy.
He can't be traded anywhere he doesn't agree to be traded to.  That's for all 5-10 guys.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 23, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like what Tony is doing...
He is making it clear if you don't give 100% then someone else will regardless of who you are and where you play. I think a lot of it has to do with setting the tone for all the younger players that will be coming in as well. Even Spiezo recognized that he needed to be more of a leader with the kids coming in this year. What if Ryan or Rasmus had said "I don't need to go to all the company functions if Adam kennedy doesn't". I'm sure that won't be happening after Tonys remarks.

Regarding Izzy. Sign him for another 2 years with a 3rd club option. Perez has control issues and could use some tutleage under Izzy. Remember he was the rock in the bullpen last year. How well do you think they would have done without him? He helped Wainright he could be a big help to Perez and the other young hurlers coming in to the club for spring.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jan 23, 2008 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like it too
but I'd like it a lot more if he delivered that message in a closed-door team meeting.  Or better yet, had such a rapport with the players that they didn't even think twice when it came to showing their dedication to the team by abiding by team rules and engagements.  

The more I think about this, the more I think Tony's public comments are a manifestation of disorder in the Cardinal clubhouse, as opposed to a cause of disorder.  If things were grooving right along, I doubt Tony would feel compelled to belittle his players publicly.  The players would respect Tony and the organization enough to abide by team rules and engagements.  

by Ray Lankford on Jan 23, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"Perez has control issues"
I'd say TLR also has control issues.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

by 26thMan on Jan 23, 2008 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love it
that because Kennedy had a bad season, it's OK to "call him out" in the media. Why is that ever a good idea? Because Kennedy wasn't trying last year or something?

He's an over thirty second baseman that was injured and posted a .239 BABIP. I'm not exactly shocked that LaRussa has gotten pissy and talked publicly about a guy that was injured an ineffective.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 2:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The Fans
Tony says that this event was a statement made by the team to the fans, which is true.  The fans have to pay $175 to get into the event and to get autographs and to not have a member of the team there is a bit of a ripoff.

That said, I doubt anyone that paid that money gave a shit that Adam Kennedy wasn't there, so it's comical that Tony was so upset about it.

I think Kennedy probably wasn't 'his guy' when it came to getting a new 2B for the 2007 season and now he wants rid of that offensive black hole.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 23, 2008 2:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well
I said it earlier too. Usually at these fan events, the whole team is NEVER there. I'm sure there were other guys missing -- so why is it such a big deal that Kennedy decided to extend his vacation?

Please let me know if I'm wrong, but isn't it usually only a few players that show up to these things.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 23, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For whatever it's worth
he was ticked at Speezer as well.

La Russa was also unhappy with utilityman Scott Spiezio, who showed up late for his autograph signing session on Monday.

"That's one dot off his resume," La Russa said. "I don't care what the excuse was, that's not a good way to get started."

Link and discussion at Primer

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
he's got some serious temper issues this year.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 23, 2008 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a quick word
I wanted to clarify a bit.  I have absolutely no particular objection to Tony doing this to Adam Kennedy.  I have a problem with this sort of public dressing down, period.  How attractive do you think the Cardinals look to FAs when they see the manager go on a power trip, ripping a player in the media?  Personally, I wouldn't want to walk into that situation.  These sorts of things should be done in house, not in front of the cameras.  

As for all of you that think its good, that Adam needed a wakeup call, look at it this way.  What if I had come on here today, and instead of putting up what I did, I posted a diatribe about how bad I thought Azruavatar's post was last Friday?  I thought it was poorly written, had no point, and didn't seem like he put any thought into it at all.  In fact, it was so bad, I really hope that Lboros gets somebody else to take his spot.  (I totally don't mean this, Azru, btw.).

Now, after reading that, is he going to feel motivated to write something really great, to prove me wrong and show everybody what he can do?  Or is he going to be humiliated by being lambasted in front of everyone, say,"that Baron guy's a dick; screw him," and end up feeling as if he doesn't even want to be part of this forum anymore?  It's not even as bad as the LaRussa situation; I'm not in any kind of position of authority over him.  It would still affect the way he feels about the place.  How would everyone else who visits this site feel if something like that happened?  I know if I had seen that sort of thing happen when I first started visiting the site, I probably never would have ventured a single opinion.  (You can argue that might have been best for all involved, but that's a separate issue entirely.)

It's not about Adam Kennedy.  It's about the culture that's being created, a culture of arrogance and disrespect.  Public humiliation is not a motivational tactic.  It only creates resentment and anger, and not only in the individual being attacked.  The Full Metal Jacket theory of personnell relations is not the program you want to see being applied.  Regardless of the quality of contribution you're risking, it's not an environment that's going to work.  

Nobody puts Baby in the corner.

by the red baron on Jan 23, 2008 2:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

red
Ok..you really want/need Azrutar to do better..to write better..to produce better. As a result, you have called him a few times to talk about it. You have emailed him a few times to talk about it. You have reasoned with him. None of this has worked. He continues to stink and rebuff you. But you really need him to write better and produce more.

Now, isn't it fair to try Plan B? Be a little more harsh? See if something else lights a fire under his butt to get him going?

I'm not saying what Tony did was proper if it was the only thing he did. However, I (and none of us) know whether or not he HAS attempted to deal with this internally. That's my point. We are making comments as if we know Tony didn't do this---maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

But I'm not going to make that assumption.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy hasn't
stunk since he sat down last August after being sidelined with an injury that bothered him all year. He's old. Bad luck on BIP. Second baseman fall off the cliff to never be seen again all the time.

It's January 23rd! If Tony was asked where Kennedy was, a simple "I'm disappointed that he's not here today" would work just fine; he could be honest with a little more tact.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He could also so
"I'm not sure where he is.  It's not my turn to watch him.  Give him a call and ask him."  

Tony was absolutely wrong to, once again, air all his grievances in public.  This has become a pattern w/ him and it's terrible for the players and for the organization.  There is little doubt in my mind that Tony gets a little bit of a power-kick by doing stuff like this, but a cult-of-personality has developed -- where Tony thinks he's bigger than the team, and it's time it ended.

by chuckb on Jan 23, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The sad thing
is that when Kennedy has a totally predictable bounceback, people will say it was Tony. Like when everyone cites that retarded 17 at bat sample size or whatever when Rolen got the cortisone shot.

If Kennedy is toast, it'll be, "Tony really knows what he's talking about, Kennedy just didn't give a shit anymore" or something like that. Like his famous 75% quote about JD Drew. A guy with a 128 OPS+ who sleeps in a hyperbaric chamber and thinks OJ instead of food will help him stay on the field.

Maybe Tony's smart enough to know this and he's doing it on purpose. He's just gone completely batshit.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so
With your outlook Tony can't get credit either way. How is that anymore fair/reasonable than giving him credit for either thing?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 23, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because
Kennedy has plenty of self-interest to play his best regardless of the manager. It's much MORE likely that these things are explained by normal variance, aging curves, injuries and whatever than a manager criticizing him or not criticizing him at the Winter Freaking Warmup.

I mean, let's be serious here, and not do this whole dude sitting on his couch cracking a beer, reading Jay Marriotti and refusing to apply simple logic thing. These are adults. Kennedy is a professional with a proven track record just like LaRussa. The game will pass them both by eventually. I'm not sure about either one at this point.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good point,
But the real issue here, in my opinion, isn't the performance of Adam Kennedy, or Azru, or me, or some guy who posts a diary, or even just a comment.  The point is that this sort of thing makes the organisation look dysfunctional and out of control.  Those of us who regularly contribute here work very hard to create a good culture, as do most of the people who only visit to look around.  Public flame wars hurt that culture.  We start having that sort of thing here, people get turned off, and pretty soon, nobody wants to come here anymore.  The site stagnates, and we all have to find somewhere else to talk about baseball.

It may not work exactly the same for the Cardinals, but how does this make them look to free agents?  How does this make them look to GM candidates, to other front office types the team may want to hire?  If the organisation looks like it has problems, you can bet that they're going to have difficulty attracting the most talented, worthwhile people.  What if this costs the Cards the chance to sign even one great FA, because he looks at the situation and doesn't want to play for a manager that's going to hang him out to dry?  

The performance of Adam Kennedy isn't the main issue here.  The main issue is the way that Tony LaRussa is choosing to handle situations that affect the way others view the organisation.  

Nobody puts Baby in the corner.

by the red baron on Jan 23, 2008 11:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa's primitive methods are telling
Excellent point, Red Baron.  

If LaRussa had wanted to make sure that players other than Kennedy understood that being absent from public relations events was taboo, then all he had to do was make that point on the first day of spring training after the full team had reported, in the privacy of a closed clubhouse.  He might have also counseled Kennedy to apologize to the fans for not making the event or offer a credible explanation, if there was one.  That would have maintained LaRussa's standard just as strongly and much more adeptly than firing off a public admonition.  A sophisticated leader would have chosen that kind of course and avoided the detrimental side effects of speaking in such an overbearing way.  

It seems evident that LaRussa's chosen course of action had at least one other purpose, namely asserting his authority per se, making sure everyone, players and public alike, know that he's the boss.  This implies that Tony has an inferiority complex lurking underneath his gruff posturing.  No wonder Bobby Knight and the like are buddies with him.  

I'd much rather see a sportsmanlike statesman like John Wooden as LaRussa's model, or Red Schoendienst, Joe Torre, or another class act like those men, who know how to guide a team to great success without being drama queens.  They all know that intimidation is the most primitive, inept means of motivating.  The best motivation comes from inspiration and from constructive feedback, whenever needed, that conveys not only a high standard but also confidence that the player can meet the standard and trust that he will.  

by CardsWin on Jan 23, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

worth repeating here
altho most here already know:  two of LaRussa's close buddies are Bobby Knight and Bill Parcells.

by the Tewk on Jan 23, 2008 10:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my last post on this matter
That's an excellent point Baron, but lets look at it a different way...

Suppose you ghost-write a post for Azru that doesn't go over well with the VEB community.  There's a lot of discussion on whether to keep Azru around if his posts don't get better, until you decide to speak up and say it was you who dropped the ball and not to blame Azru because you put him in a bad situation and things didn't turn out the way you wanted them to.

Have you ever heard Tony rip a player in the post-game press conference for a poor on-field decision or for not producing?  No, most of the time when they lose he takes the brunt of the blame and media fire for the on-field product and doesn't ever publicly call out players for on-field performance.  He's even more protective of his players when questions come up about their performance.  What he asks in return is that you respect him, respect the organization, and, above all else, respect the damn game.  When he feels someone isn't doing this he's going to call them out, and he's done that his entire career.  Larry Bowa used to flame guys out for striking out at the end of ball games and making a poor throw to first base; I don't see TLR ever doing anything like that.

I feel that it's a privilege to get to play in the big leagues, and I'm sure that most of us would not be skipping any opportunities to meet with fans and give autographs and talk with them and with their kids about how cool it is to be a big leaguer.  No matter how good the public relations department of the Cardinals is, they can't do much at all without help from the players.  

Albert Pujols is a great example of this, on and off the field.  As the superstar player you're expected to be at these events more than Kennedy, but he enjoys doing all the little things that make baseball great, like giving back to community, attending events and playing with kids.  I've witnessed it myself and it's nice to see someone using his status to make those fans feel appreciated.  He truly enjoys being there!

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 23, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey fourstick
It's Harry Caray.

Bustin' balls

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 23, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Discretion
The question does not seem to be whether Kennedy would have better joined in the Warmup.  Isn't the question how LaRussa responded when Kennedy didn't attend?  

You make a good point, fourstick, about LaRussa's much better discretion when a player blows a play when the player is giving his best effort.  But why should LaRussa abandon such discretion when the player chooses not to do something that technically is not required and has no effect on the team's performance on the field?  

Tony may be showing the effects still of his embarassing DUI last year.  That must have been extremely difficult for such a proud man who makes such an issue of maintaining high standards of conduct.  He seems to be overcompensating, straining to demonstrate that his standards are still high, despite his mistake.  It's called reaction formation, i.e., exagerrating the mistakes of others to offset or divert attention from one's own mistakes.  When Tony went out of his way, literally, at the Warmup to add new comments about his feud with Rolen and when he made that bomb of a joke at the Writer's Dinner about going hunting for cats and dogs with Rolen, he seemed to be in the grip the same syndrome.  

It would be wise for LaRussa to remember that "discretion is the better part of valor".  Me thinks Tony doth protest too much.    

by CardsWin on Jan 23, 2008 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he was getting paid like Kennedy and
He performed like he did I would probably say he had it coming. Not the same. Maybe Kennedy told him to f*c! off and Tony decided to say it back. We only know one side. The worst that happens is Kennedy gets traded to Toronto(instead of Siberia we will just ship out players Tony pisses off to Toronto) and we get to see Hoffpauir at 2B. If Juan can ever play again( and I hope is blessed with that chance again) he is so going to Toronto.
"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jan 23, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If who
was getting paid like Kennedy?

And if Kennedy told LaRussa to fuck off, that's something that LaRussa should be man enough to handle without responnding to a room full of people with cameras and voice recorders that aren't named Adam Kennedy.

And remember, it's to the detriment of Miles. Not Hoffpauir, unfortunately.

by plh903 on Jan 23, 2008 8:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pujols and KTVI
Just a quick point-
I'm sure it's not the stations official stance but, Martin Kilcoyne, KTVI's Sports Director, has said (on his 1380 radio show) on several occasions that he is "embarassed" by their pre-Mitchell Report coverage... especially the station sending reporters to Pujols' restuarant.

 

by Mike Laga on Jan 23, 2008 3:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That whole thing
was ugly. It was handled in the poorest possible way, and I'm surprised - truly surprised - that it hasn't caught the bigger attention of the national media.

Bottom line, if you're in the press, you have a responsibility to verify sources.  Not wanting to be scooped, they made a call - the wrong one.

We (as in the StL area) keep doing this shit to Pujols, and he'll retire a Yankee.  

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 23, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I honestly don't think this has legs
This will die (in my opinion).  I think Albert made his point.  Surely, he won't exlude Fox2 from everything, all season.

by Mike Laga on Jan 23, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Party Boys
I wonder if some of this relates to the Party Boy rumors I have read on other blogs about Kennedy, and relating him to partying with Speizio and Hancock.  Now, I could be completely off base, but if true that Kennedy was one of the Party Boys of this team, maybe Tony sees this latest transgression as another example of Kennedy not growing up and acting responsibly.  It seems that Speizio has gotten the message (by crashing and burning last summer).  Is this Tony's way of trying to make sure Adam gets the message?

by finmsully on Jan 23, 2008 4:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes
I think that's part of it.  Mentioned here earlier that these TLR comments might be a result of other problems rather than a cause.  I believe that to be true.

The clubhouse culture among many of the vets needs to change.  It's gotten a little out of control in recent years.  I think Tony knows he will have his hands full on that front this season, and he probably sees this as a early chance to deal with that issue.

All that being said, it wasn't that extreme a comment that he made.  He essentially said we want him to perform but he won't be given as much rope again, and that he needed to show he's going to put the effort in and that this wasn't a good start.  It's not on par with some of the shots he's been giving Rolen lately - which I think are over the top.  It's not as though he called Kennedy a no talent bum or anything.  I think this comment regarding Kennedy was measured and controlled, and was made to deliever a message that he needs to get himself better prepared this year.

by Merry CRasmus on Jan 23, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Edit
To clarify - It was mentioned by others that the comment is a symptom of other issues, rather than the cause.  I didn't make that comment myself, although I agree with it.  

by Merry CRasmus on Jan 23, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good point
I remember reading that Bennett, kennedy, and edmonds were the guys hancock was driving to meet when he killed himself.  I don't remember Spiezio being in that conversation, but 2 of those 3 are now gone.  

I wouldn't be surprised to see an effort made to move Kennedy even or especially if he IS productive this spring/summer.

"My other option was to go hunting dogs and cats with Scott Rolen." - TLR

by SleepyCA on Jan 23, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem I have with Tony's action is
that it had the exact opposite effect that the occasion was supposed to promote.  I find it odd that anybody noticed whether Adam Kennedy was at the Winter Warm Up.  I assume that the warm up is meant to be a happy talk autograph session that gets us fans psyched for  the season.  This is a season that follows one of the hardest for Cards fans.  A bad team, a player killed, another sent to rehab, the manager arrested, manager/player feuds on and on.  So now the major memory from the feel good event of the winter is that us hard core fans are left analyzing a new down beat issue.  If I was management I might be mad at Kennedy but I'd be damn mad at LaRussa.  Managers have a tough job riding herd on 25 egotistic young men and every team has their problems.  This one ,though, was a stupid one to go public with.

by easy on Jan 23, 2008 4:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you summed it up well.
Did you all know that Matt Clement didn't show?  I didn't think so.

Before I would blast Mr. Kennedy, I would want to know if there was a valid reason for him to not be there.  Like him or not, he's a living, breathing human being with all of the everyday problems and obligations that we all have.  I mean, what if it turns out he was at a funeral?  Or his brother got married?  Or someone from the organization sent him incorrect information?  Or his kid was sick?  Or he was sick?  It's possible there IS an explanation.  It's also possible he just blew it off. Perhaps he didn't realize how much it meant to Mr. LaRussa.  But I'm not comfortable hearing Kennedy being called out.  I'm just not.  I don't think it's the  best way to handle these situations.

I may have to put Mr. LaRussa on mute.......

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 23, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

for all the soap opera talk about albert
the real story is he may need surgery, and can't even straighten out his elbow.
I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 23, 2008 4:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

when i first read that article
i got sick to my stomach... no albert for an entire season if he has surgery?  eek!
When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Jan 23, 2008 6:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My two cents...
By my I.D. you can all tell my position on La Russa, but I don't plan to be overly hard on him here.  Well, that might not be possible.

First, I think there are valid points on both sides of the public vs. private airing of grievances.  It's essentially a philosophical or psychological difference of opinion on human motivation, and the fact of the matter is that we don't and can't know all of the back story on issues like these.  I think we can probably all agree that we would like for these public confrontations to be avoided, but it is entirely possible that it was in fact unavoidable.  That said...

I tend to look at the type of behavior a person has exhibited in the past as to how much benefit of the doubt I'm willing to give him in the future, and it does seem to me that TLR is exhibiting a trend of confrontational behavior.  While just the Rolen and Kennedy situations may not be enough to blame it on him, I tend to think the person who continues to have these problems is likely more than 50% responsible.  Then I remember situations such as the All-Star game where APoo was the one seeming to really bridge the gap, when he had every right to be angry with his manager.  And if TLR wants to really take a stand against these supposed "Party Boys," maybe he should cut down on the liquor himself.  At any rate, TLR's actions at the very least do not absolve him from question about his tactics.

The bigger problem with him is what has gotten us to this position of mediocrity in the first place.

  1. A lack of willingness to give young players a chance.
  2. An active resistance to learning more about the complicated actions and interactions that cause teams to win and lose games through new statistics, studies, and other information that is helping teams like the Red Sox become juggernauts, because of some arrogant belief in your own power of observation.
  3. An unnecessary play for power over decisions that should not be made by managers.
I think we all can relate these problems to a lot of the things that we would like to happen with the Cardinals right now that are not happening.

II. Izzy

We have to keep him.  If he is honest about his desire to stay/play/retire as a Cardinal, then we can't let him go.  What is we had dumped Bob Gibson for his final 2 years of sub 100 ERA+, or Lou Brock for his last 3 poor season so that either had retired with some other team?  Now, Izzy isn't a great like these two, but you get my point?

Loyalty between players and clubs is certainly missing, and if you have a chance to develop some of that old time loyalty with a player you can't pass it up.  I think these type of intangible decisions can go a long way toward signing future free agents, keeping current players on your roster, and creating a positive culture around the club.

Not only can you get these unmeasured/unproven/potential benefits, but you get a player that brings people to the ballpark, helps create more wins for your team, and "mentors" a young bullpen for what it's worth.  I can't see the downside to keeping him, except in the sense of payroll opportunity cost for an unnecessarily stingy ownership.  But if it were up to me I'd be changing that too.

by oquendo4manager on Jan 23, 2008 4:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Signing TLR for two more seasons
will eventually be know as a huge blunder as we are now on the hook for two more years of the drama queen act. Worst signing in years, no doubt it will make the Tino ordeal seem like a picnic.

Whether you are pro or con TLR, you must admit there were many better options available for a team attempting to build from within. Just a horrible decision that will come back to haunt the club for many seasons. What was DeWitt possibly thinking?

Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jan 23, 2008 5:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Matheny back with the Cards
  I read in the Post-Dispatch that Matheny is coming to Spring Training as an instructor.  I'm really excited to have him back.  He's a great man and from all accounts, an incredible baseball mind.  My favorite part of the article is the last line.  When asked if he would assume is old #22 now that Eckstein is gone, he all that mattered was "the logo across the chest. It's great to be back."

Similar to Matheny, Izzy loves the Cardinals and wants to stay.  That kind of loyalty is rare nowadays, and I think it should be applauded.

by birdsonthebat on Jan 23, 2008 6:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

let the Oquendo/Matheny
era begin ;)

Also in the news recently was that Mike Aldrete is joining the team as an additional hitting coach...

"My other option was to go hunting dogs and cats with Scott Rolen." - TLR

by SleepyCA on Jan 23, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brewers in 2008
I read a breakdown of the rival Brew Crew for 2008.  Pretty solid read:
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/23/the-2008-milwaukee-brewers-growing-pains/

by ET90210 on Jan 23, 2008 9:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You really
like that blog!!
Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 23, 2008 9:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tony
I agree 100 percent that we should keep Izzy. The odds are that the Cardinals won't be in contention. But at the same time, they do reside in the National League Central. The Brewers lost the division last year because their pitching was unreliable and because their manager went insane. The Cubs are - well the Cubs. On paper, they are the team to beat, but let's face it - they will be playing this year with the pressure of 100 years of futility engulfing them. I doubt Soriano's ankle can hold up under that kind of pressure. My point is - yes the odds are that the Cardinals will not compete. But if a few things fall into place - they could. So, having a killer closer is a good thing. I think the Cardinals should do right by Izzy and give some time for the kids to mature. By all accounts - Perez tends to walk a lot of people. He needs to learn some command before we can trust him in the 9th inning of a big league game.

Now, as to Tony calling out Kennedy - I am glad he did it. Even Albert Pujols attends the winter warmup. I am sorry, but Adam Kennedy is no Albert Pujols. It is disrespectful to the fans and disrespectful to the organization. I attended one of the caravans last weekend and met Brian Anderson and Chris Perez. You do not see big time stars on these caravans. You see guys who are just looking for a chance. The Cardinals are not expecting Kennedy to go on these caravans. One weekend in St. Louis is not asking too much. So, I say go Tony!!!!

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jan 23, 2008 9:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

extend izzy now? no!
he says he's happy here, so believe him and look to be a contender with him during 08. if we are 10+ games back, behind three teams by late july, pull him aside and explain this position as "best for both stl and izzy". we want you back in 09. but since we appear out of it for 08, we want to flip you to a contender, and give you a shot at a 3 month ring. if, you will not veto the trade (detroit type team). we pull what we can get as a prospect, and revisit izzy's FA status before 09, as soon as MLB allows.  
if he has a similar 08 to his 07, offer him arb equivelant $. if he's truly happy here, he will accept and we have him resigned without competing at everyone elses cost.
if we are out of it by mid july, why would he want to stick around and see bench time while our youth gets their shot in august and sept? why would we continue to play him, if we had the opportunity to develop our youth at the mlb level? i believe izzy wouldn't want that either. the bench time or holding back our youth.
if he has a great year and postseason, he may want to see what teams will offer him as a FA.
we have made his position stronger by trading him to a contender and their save opportunities.
not only do we to get see izzy's 08, but we also see the entire organizations 08 year.
if izzy has an 08 comparable to 06, then there is no trade value. we allow him to walk and get nothing for a FA we didn't want, as it should be.
this position we take with izzy, could also apply to "FA's to be" springer and looper. would they not be returning to a slightly better team, with the players we acquired in their trades?
it seems the fairest approach for all, with no speculating involved. he says he's happy here, so believe him, and let our 08 season determine our decisions.

by hard9fan on Jan 24, 2008 5:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Stl_ia_card_45_-_dark_small
Jeff Pearlman Thinks Of Hair Clumps When He Thinks Of The Thief McGwire
Black-spider-monkey_small
Losing my religion (w/ baseball)

Recent FanPosts

Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..
Cathybachebay1_small
The current Busine$$ of Baseball...how long can it last?
Avatar_small
VEB CheBird T-Shirt for Sale - Red or Powder Blue, CLEARANCE
Stl_ia_card_45_-_dark_small
October Lore: One In A Million

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Trigun_001_small the red baron