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Around SBN: Doug Flutie's Hail Mary, And Why College Sports Matter

taking the challenge

a quick reminder --- if you want to fill out a bracket for the tournament of cardinal champions, time's running out; we start posting results tomorrow afternoon. brackets and e-mail link available at Cardinal70's tournament tracker page.

while we're on the subject of simulated baseball: you'll never believe which team is alone in first place in The Sporting News' 1986 replay. will leitch, i salute you.

the glaus-rolen swap got the fellows at the jays blog Batter's Box thinking about challenge trades:

Challenge trades are straight-up, one-for-one deals, usually involving two guys who play the same position. The first such trade I can remember is the legendary My-Bobby-For-Yours deal of 1974, when the Giants sent Bonds to the Bronx for Murcer. The most legendary such deal is one that actually never happened, when (legend has it) the owners of the Red Sox and Yankees got their drink on and agreed to deal Joe DiMaggio for Ted Williams before both backed out the next, more sober day.
as far as i can tell, rolen-for-glaus is only the 3d such trade in in the long history of the cardinal franchise. the only two that i can find occurred within three years of each other: torre-for-cepeda in 1969 and carlton-for-wise in 1972. it may be argued that the former doesn't represent a true challenge trade, insofar as torre played a different position (catcher) than cepeda before the trade; the cardinals moved him to 1st base to fill the vacancy created by cepeda's departure, so in that sense it was a challenge trade. one that cardinals won handily, by the way --- check out their win-share totals:
1969 1970 1971
torre 22.8 25.2 40.6
cepeda 19.4 20.5 6.6

cepeda got traded in 1972 and only delivered about 15 win shares the rest of his career (which ended in 1974); the cardinals milked torre for another 53 win shares through 1974, then traded him for ray sadecki, who in turn was traded for ron reed (the cards' 2d-best pitcher in 1975); reed was traded for mike anderson, which is where the line fizzles out. torre was nearly 3 years younger than cepeda; taking all the echo trades into account, the cardinals got about 5 more years' worth of production out of the deal than they would have received by keeping cepeda.

the carlton-wise trade obviously didn't work out as well (duh), although i've long believed the magnitude of the disaster was overstated. it took a number of years before this trade turned putrid --- indeed, in the short term the trade it didn't look so terrible. turning back to win shares:

1972 1973 1974 1975
carlton 40.4 14.2 22.3 14.2
wise 20.4 13.4 -- --
re smith --- -- 25.3 20.3

carlton's 1972 season (when he won 27 games for a last-place team) was one of the best of the postwar era, but for the three seasons after that he wasn't anything particularly special; from 1973 through 1975 he was basically a .500 pitcher (44-47 cumulative record) for a .500 team (the phils went 237-249 over those 3 years). carlton did throw a lot of innings, but he walked way too many guys and had eras (3.90, 3.22, 3.56) that hovered around league average; the '72 season appeared to be just a fluke, and the cards didn't appear to miss him all that much. wise easily outpitched him in in 1973 per basic stats (wise 16-12, 3.37; carlton 13-20, 3.90) and was just as valuable per win shares; and reggie smith, whom the cardinals acquired in exchange for wise in 1974, was a far more productive player than carlton in 1974-75, making the all-star team in both seasons while posting ops+ figures in the 140-150 range. while the cardinals could have used a pitcher in '74-'75 (especially '74, when they fell just short of the division title), they wouldn't have been contenders at all without reggie smith --- and they wouldn't have had smith if they still had carlton.

at that point in the proceedings, an objective judge might say that the cards had cut bait on carlton at the right time. he was a maddeningly inconsistent 30-year-old pitcher with two 20-win seasons but also two years of 19 or more losses, a guy who didn't seem to get the most out of his talent --- who was occasionally brilliant but too often was merely pretty good. it was only after 1975 that his career took off --- he won 3 cy young awards in the next 7 years, while the cards dumped reggie smith for too little (journeyman joe ferguson), at which point the trade began to look like one of the worst in team history. even if they hadn't dealt carlton in 1972, i tend to doubt they would have retained him through his great 1976-1983 run; the free agent era began in 1976, and gussie busch wasn't paying top dollar for any player. he dealt carlton over a difference of $5,000 in salary negotiations in 1972, and by the late 1970s the sums being negotiated had grown many times larger than that.

aside from torre-cepeda and carlton-wise, the cardinals have made several other deals that might be described as partial challenge trades. they include:

rogers hornsby for frankie frisch and jimmy ring, 1927: ring was more than an inconsequential throw-in; he'd thrown at least 180 innings for 8 years in a row. but he'd reached the end of the line; he went 0-4, 6.55 for the cards in only 33 innings, then went 4-17 for the phillies the following year, his last.

bill virdon for bobby del greco and dick littlefield, 1956: one of frank lane's dumber trades. virdon had won the nl rookie of the year award in 1955, but after a slow start in 1956 lane dealt him for the unheralded del greco and littlefield, a swingman cut from the mark petkovsek cloth.

julio gotay and don cardwell for dick groat, 1963: groat was a major upgrade over gotay, but it cost the cardinals don cardwell (who died last week), a player they'd only acquired one month earlier as the centerpiece of a 6-player deal. despite poor won-loss records, cardwell was a solidly above-average starting pitcher for most of the 1960s.

jerry reuss for scipio spinks and lance clemons, 1972: this one wasn't a challenge trade so much as a trade of established value (reuss) for potential value (spinks); reuss had made 56 big-league starts at the time, versus spinks' 5. halfway through the 1972 season it looked like a shrewd move --- spinks had a 2.67 era and ranked 5th in the nl in strikeouts. then he broke his leg sliding into home plate (which was being blocked by johnny bench at the time) and never recovered.

ken boyer for charley smith and al jackson, 1966: excellent trade for the cardinals; the exchange of 3d basemen was basically a wash in 1966, at which point the cards flipped smith for roger maris. meanwhile, al jackson was the cards' 2d-best pitcher in 1966 and a useful swingman on the 1967 championship team.

al hrabosky for mark littell and buck martinez, 1978: a rare closer-for-closer deal, with a backup catcher thrown in; the cards traded martinez immediately to milwaukee for george frazier.

garry templeton for ozzie smith, 1982: actually a 7-player deal rather than a straight-up exchange of shortstops; the cards sent templeton, sixto lezcano, and a ptbnl (luis deleon) to san diego for ozzie, steve mura, and a ptbnl (al olmstead). cards won the trade . . . .

* * * * * * * *

if you're headed to spring training, check out alan byrd's Florida Spring Training: Your Guide to Touring the Grapefruit League, the full contents of which are online here. a few other news/notes items for ya this morning:
  • BP's christina kahrl thinks the cards made out like bandits in the rolen-glaus trade:
    I know this is seen as a challenge trade as well as an exchange of problems, but if that's the case, it's one I think the Cardinals have already won, perhaps handily. In light of Glaus' agreement to exercise his player option for 2009, it's two years of Glaus for three of Rolen. Glaus is younger by a little more than a year . . . Maybe Rolen's initial greatness makes the age issue a wash, but that doesn't erase Glaus' relative offensive reliability, or his advantages moving to grass or the weakest division in the easier league, and as much as both players represent risks, it would seem to me you're better off betting on getting value over two years than hoping for it over three.
    she concludes that the cardinals "win out in terms of offensive reliability, long-term risk, and expense."
  • david pinto also likes the trade for the cards, marginally --- but concludes that the real winners are the players themselves
  • Drunk Jays Fans has a vulgar but uproarious review of scott rolen's press conference in toronto (caution: it's gotta lotta cursewords).
  • lee panas has crunched a lot of defensive numbers at Detroit Tiger Tales and concluded that troy glaus was about 6 runs above average with the glove in 2007 --- about 13 runs worse than scott rolen. panas also has pujols ranked as the best 1B gloveman in baseball (24 runs better than average).
  • bob gibson, nice guy ???
  • gaaaaaaaah!!!

0 recs  |  Comment 63 comments

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Boy that Juan Gone link
will wake you up in the morning.

by sdrone on Jan 17, 2008 9:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

made me wonder if i was
even awake, or if i was having some sort of a weird dream...like the one with the hamburger eating me
I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 17, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reggie Smith for Rick Wise
Great point about Rick Wise being traded for Reggie Smith to help even out the Carlton trade.  R. Smith was a five tool player that had two excellent years for the Redbirds.  In 1974 he almost was enough to push the Cardinals into the playoffs.  
DYNASTY League Baseball - the leader in realism in Baseball simulation games from the designer of Pursue the Pennant.

by DYNASTYLeagueBaseballMike on Jan 17, 2008 10:03 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Reggie is an example
of the crazy moves the Cardinals front office was in the 70s.  He played great in 74, OK in 75, and slumped badly in the first half of 76, so they shipped him off to the Dodgers for Joe Ferguson, Bob Detharage, and Fred Tisdale (thanks, Baseball-Reference.com).  

The change of scenery was great for Reggie -- being in a pennant race turned things around for him (probably hitting in a lineup with Cey, Lopes, Garvey, Yeager, Russell, Dusty Baker and Bill Buckner helped too).

Meanwhile, the Cardinals now had a catcher/rightfielder in Ferguson, which I guess meant my man Ted got to rest a little more, but my man Ted was the only power hitter in the lineup at that point, so resting him was pointless.  I don't remember Detharage, and Tisdale was minor league only according to B-R.com, so we got nothin' and traded away a guy who became the 1974 version of the switch-hitting power-hitting outfielder after he left for two or three more years.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jan 17, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ummmm . . .
. . . the crazy moves the Cardinals front office were making in the 70s.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jan 17, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

JuanGone?
Mwwhhaahaaa! TLR is clearly calling the shots.
Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jan 17, 2008 10:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Calm down, folx...
They're considering inviting Juan Gone to camp... given his most recent history, does anyone think he can possibly perform well enough to make the club? I don't!

Shoot, at this point, Dave Freakin' Kingman has as good a shot to make a MLB roster as Gonzalez... slim and none, and Slim just left town...

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jan 17, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bill Virdon........
Funny you mention this trade Larry.  Mr. Virdon plays golf at the course I work at weekly, I look forward to showing him your post today.  Or perhaps when he comes in I will mention to him he was traded for Bobby Del Greco and Dick Littlefield just so he can give me a "how in the hell do you know that" look.  

I beleive Mr. Virdon retired with 99 career homeruns, I often tease him by saying he should make a comeback just to hit one more dinger and retire with a nice total of 100 for his career.

by Pujols for MVP on Jan 17, 2008 11:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

tho mostly a Pirate, I think
Bill Virdon was one of my favorites as a boy.  A slap-hitting lefty as I recall and a smart, good-tools centerfielder.

by the Tewk on Jan 17, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would guess
a majority did come as a Pirate.  He still wears a Pirate hat every time I see him.  I don't know how old he is but he is incredible shape.  His daughter married ex MLB player Orlando Merced who I think played mainly with the Astros.  I see them in downtown Springfield, Mo often.  Both Bill and Orlando have some really good stories about baseball.

by Pujols for MVP on Jan 17, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gaaaaaah!!!!!
What, did Sosa turn down an invite?
Why not ask Jim Rice of Andre Dawson, a few more homers might put them over the top for the HOF. I think Edwardo himself might be better.
After reading the article I think it's less a TRL move than a keep Albert happy move, just a hunch but who do you think put Juan Gone on the radar screen?
Who knows, maybe EL Scout found us something, he has been working out there and he has forgoten more about baseball than I will ever learn.

by That's a Winner on Jan 17, 2008 11:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yep, I'm betting this is Moz
throwing a bone to Albert and Jose.  I have no doubt there was a lot of chuckling in the front office when this idea first arose.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 17, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzalez
Would be a disaster.  I agree with The Ol Goaler, I don't think he'll actually make the team.  

Speaking of Gonzo, I came across a pretty amusing article on the all-time performance-enhancing team.  He happened to make it.  Good read.

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/16/all-time-teams-the-all-juiced-team/

by ET90210 on Jan 17, 2008 11:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

all you Sallys that haven't turned
in picks for the tournament need to do so -- I want to be able to gloat over as many people as possible.

by azruavatar on Jan 17, 2008 11:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I saw your picks....
....and when this is all over i will be able to gloat from here to future redbirds about my victory!

by indakind on Jan 17, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

With only 6 in so far....
All the participants in this will get a leg up on the regular tourney coming up afterwards.

And the odds on a tie for the play-in title are pretty strong.

by Cardinal70 on Jan 17, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

truth be told
I have never picked in a pool of this nature before.  Since I'm not a big football or college basketball fan, I'm quite new to the idea of making picks -- Cardinal70 had to explain to me how it works. . .

For some reason, I would think Fritz or Liam would be particularly good at this kind of thing but they appear to be to chicken to submit picks.

by azruavatar on Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Way to go, az
. . . call 'em out, all of 'em.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jan 17, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody calls me chicken!!!
The last time someone did, I crashed my truck into a rolls royce, eventually leading me to be fired via television/phone while my mom rehydrated a pizza in my futuristic kitchen.
Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I basically assume you are
well acquainted with vice related activities.

And while I'm in the business of harassing you, your blog is looking very neglected.

by azruavatar on Jan 17, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn
writers strike.
Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we'll need more background on this
sounds like a helluva story...
It's not a gimme if you're still out.

by kennyzamboni on Jan 17, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At least
when your jacket got wet, it dried itself.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jan 17, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Callin' me out
I think you just called me a Sally, too.

First week of the semester is pretty hellacious for me, that's my excuse.

I would have just randomly generated a few score brackets and picked one with '42, '68, and '04 in the Final Four. You can taunt me freely if any of them don't make it.

by liam on Jan 18, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sounds like apu and yamo
are the ones advocating the juangone invite.
I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 17, 2008 12:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Glaus younger???
Hey everybody, great site, thanks for the link.

Um... I don't want to start anything here, because I know both players in the Glaus-Rolen deal come with significant baggage, but the BP article that was quoted is one of many examples I've seen of people citing Glaus's age as a win for the Cards. Thing is, I think one of the local media up here put it best when he said that Troy Glaus is 31 going on 80. It physically hurt to watch him try to run around the bases last year. All the respect in the world to him for playing through the pain, but quite honestly, if you'd asked how old they thought Glaus was to Jays fans who didn't know, easily they would have added about five years to his actual age just based on how immobile he is/was.

Again, I'm completely aware that Rolen has all sorts of problems himself. And I'm not trying to say anything in judgment of the trade here, just pointing out that it's ridiculous to cite Glaus being marginally younger as having any meaning... just like it's ridiculous to say the Jays are "hoping" for Rolen but that Glaus is reliable. Having watched Glaus breaking down over the last couple of years, I gotta tell you that's hardly the case. Sorry.

by stoeten on Jan 17, 2008 12:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
you can mention the move from artificial turf enough here. Granted, there's probably some irreversible damage in that foot of Glaus', but I think the move to natural grass will go a long way to revitalize him.

After all, playing on artificial turf is basically playing on painted concrete.

by Jhusk on Jan 17, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fieldturf
the blue jays went to fieldturf before getting glaus.  it is much thicker and softer than the old astro turf.  i've been on a couple fieldturf surfaces before.  they arent grass, but they arent that bad either.  i am not sure that a natural surface is going to be significantly better for his plantar fasciitis.  the spectrum of playing surfaces would look something like this:

natural grass
|
|
field turf
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
astro turf
|
concrete

by dmb60614 on Jan 17, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We actually had a field turf installed in our yard
(Yes, this is a new trend in Cali.  No maintenance yard and you can also get putting greens installed.) It is a really soft product.  It is sold by the same company that installed turf in many sporting venues.  It has a sand and rubber infill which really makes it quite soft.  Nothing like traditional astroturf fields that I played soccer on from time to time growing up.

I don't know if Toronto has the field turf brand product, but I do think that the move from these newer surfaces to grass may be overstated.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 17, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not clear what point
you're trying to make here.  Glaus' foot condition would cause any player ... even a 20-year old ... to look awful while running the bases, and to lose mobility.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 17, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Glaus' injury
I'd be interested to hear more about the procedure on Glaus' fascia.  I know that it was ruptured and the most popular procedure has them "loosen" that tendon.  Does anyone (paging Silent Bob) know what he had done? Expectations?

   

youneverknow

by meat on Jan 17, 2008 1:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe check back posts on
Under the Knife on Baseball Prospectus?

by sdrone on Jan 17, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

carroll talked about it last week
linky, 4th paragraph down.

To vastly oversimplify his (admitted) oversimplification, apparently the foot was swelling, causing a nerve to be pinched.  The surgery moved the nerve.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 17, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True, but...
he's the one who's got the condition-- and word around here was that it was something he'd always have to deal with. He can play through it, but there will be pain, even after the nerve procedure done in September. At least that's been my impression of it. So I guess I'm mostly just saying that he plays like a man in his late 30s, not his early thirties, so assigning any value to the actual number is meaningless.

And Jhusk, you're incorrect about the turf. It's not the old carpet on concrete stuff. The Jays have had proper Field Turf for several years. Granted, it doesn't quite have the give of a natural surface, but is a whole lot closer. Honestly, I'm skeptical about how much of a difference the switch is really going to make.

by stoeten on Jan 17, 2008 1:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...
I guess I haven't quite figured out the reply function.

by stoeten on Jan 17, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also unmentioned is the fact that Albert
had the same condition playing on the natural surface in Busch II a couple of years ago.

by OCCardsFan on Jan 17, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Groat for Cardwell
was a great deal for the Cardinals. Groat was the NL All-Star starting shortstop in both 1963 and 1964 and a key performer for the '64 championship team.

We had plenty of pitching in those days and Cardwell's numbers are masked by the era in which he pitched. he really only had two good seasons after the deal. He was more of a swingman.

The Cardinals were desperate for a shortstop at the time. Other than an aging Alvin Dark, they hadn't had a real solid regular shortstop since Solly Hemus spent three years there in the early fifties after taking over for Marty Marion. Groat filled that void and flags fly forever.

by DizzyDean17 on Jan 17, 2008 1:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

my mother and I
rode the Greyhound bus to St. Louis (approx 280 miles) in '63.  I remember the game well but I especially remember a kind cab driver taking the time to wheel us back into an area where the players exited after the game.
Even as a 13 yr old boy, I was bold enough to button-hole Dick Groat, get his autograph, and have a quick chat.
I told him almost exactly what you just said above... that the Cardinals had been needing a good SS for years, and that I was very excited he was with us.
He probably thought... what does a little boy know about anything, but he was very nice to me nonetheless.  I even patted him on the back and he shook my hand.  I felt so proud.

Tho' short-lived, for my money there will never be a Cardinal total infield quite like Boyer, Groat, Javier and White.

by the Tewk on Jan 17, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed on groat
always viewed getting him as a big part of the 63-64 teams getting to the top and remember thinking at the time: wow, we got dick groat.  he was, as related, also very nice and accommodating to fans.  too bad he wasn't a card longer.

by sportsman on Jan 17, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Groat and Basketball
Fans of Dick Groat might be interested in the following pieces of trivia:  Groat was an all-American in two sports at Duke in the 1950s, baseball and basketball.  He was the UPI college basketball player of the year in 1952.  That same year he was the first Duke basketball player to have his number (#10) retired.  The second number to be retired did not happen until 1980.

by ncgostl on Jan 17, 2008 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The most amazing challenge trade from days gone by
for me, was the Indians sending defending 1959 AL home run champ OF Rocky Colavito to the Tigers for the defending 1959 AL batting champ OF Harvey Kuenn. Not Cards, of course, but still shocking at the time.

by Bake MacBird on Jan 17, 2008 1:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rolen
I'm gonna miss the guy. I hope the best for him in Toronto. At least we can watch him (hopefully) beat the Sox and Yankees.

Now I can only hope TLR doesn't do the same to Pujols . . .

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 17, 2008 1:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

P.S.
I know this post was oddly timed, just watching the press conference inspired me.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 17, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what
exactly did TLR "do" to Rolen?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 17, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

do any of us know?
I don't think anyone exactly knows what has happened inside the clubhouse that got us here, but I know that if TLR was no longer the manager, then Rolen would've loved to have stayed. So obviously something, as if it hasn't been publicized enough.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 17, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Another BP writer
seems to think that park was a big factor in how productive Glaus was in Toronto.  

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7057

(Bottom of page)

by Toddius396 on Jan 17, 2008 1:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Simulation
Since this site is on the topic of simulations these days, just thought I'd post that I too have my own baseball game simulator that uses ZIPS projections as input.  The program has algorithms to take into account almost everything you can think of.  I ran it head to head VS the Las Vegas sports books last year and was beat by 1.12%.  I am hoping to improve on that this year, now that I have algorithms in place for park adjustment and based on left handed or right handedness.  I am doing a simulation analysis for each of the 6 divisions.  The ones for the NL West and Central are done.  I am playing a round robin schedule within each division, no games outside of the division, just to come up with divisional rankings.  I am pitting each team against each other and playing 1000 games in each teams home park with each teams #1 starter facing the other teams #1 starters and so on for the 2,3,4 and 5 starters.  The results for the NL Central simulation had four teams bunched near the top (Reds, Brewers, Cubs, Astros), with a drop to the Cardinals and then a huge drop to the Pirates.

See Results here.

vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 17, 2008 2:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

that cluster at the top looks
a lot like what the division intuitively seems primed to end up as.  I'll still bet on the Cubs though.

by azruavatar on Jan 17, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tom Cruise
Watched the Tom Cruise link on the Drunk Jays Fan site...That dude has gone batshit fucking-ass crazy.  I don't know shit about Scientology, but the dude still sounds like a freaking psycho.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 17, 2008 3:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

scientology
to get the inside poop on this "religion" visit the south park site and view the show that sent chef to the showers.

by sportsman on Jan 17, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lankford for WIlliams...
was a challenge trade, even though they played different positions. Both were disgruntled and made about $8 million that year. Needless to say, Walt took Kevin Towers to school on that one.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Jan 17, 2008 4:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Leitch
must've taken my threat to go medieval on his ass seriously.
"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it."

by cardsrul on Jan 17, 2008 4:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Quote of the Year
Eduardo Perez: "Once a hitter, always a hitter."

Really?  Tell that to:

Scott Rolen
Adam Kennedy
Jason Kendall
Ray Durham
Marcus Giles
Richie Sexson
Rondell White
Craig Biggio
Darin Erstad
Trot Nixon
Preston Wilson

Care to add on?

by sdangler on Jan 17, 2008 7:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think it would be appropriate to add
Juan Gonzalez
Sammy Sosa
Jason LaRue
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 17, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
how many of those guys had 400+ HRs and 2 MVP awards?

Sosa is probably the biggest that comes to mind.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 17, 2008 8:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both of
Juan's MVP awards are a joke, and the list of guys with 400 homers that were done hitting by 38 is very long.

by plh903 on Jan 17, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lieber
lboros,

I don't know if you've said anything on this yet, what do you think of the Cubs signing Lieber?  You wanted  the Birds to take a run at him, right?

by lerwin1 on Jan 17, 2008 9:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i think the cubs did very well
there's no way they can lose on that deal --- zero downside, but a pretty good upside.

by lboros on Jan 17, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh
opportunity cost.  They could end up trading away Marquis or Marshall becuase of this deal.  I'm not the biggest fans of either player but he could take starts away from both.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 17, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's worth seeing what Lieber can
do outside of the bandbox that is Philly.

by azruavatar on Jan 18, 2008 3:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re opportunity cost
the cubs are built to win now; their opportunity is now. if lieber frees them up to trade sean marshall to the orioles as part of a deal for brian roberts, that'd make sense for them. and if he enables them to dump marquis and the $14m remaining on his salary --- well, that'd make sense for any team. lieber's a better pitcher than marquis, and he's $10.5m cheaper.

by lboros on Jan 18, 2008 7:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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