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tourney time

one final piece of news regarding the rolen trade. at the end of my knee-jerk analysis when the news broke on saturday, i remarked off-handedly that while i liked the trade, i'd rather see the cards get back a young player like andy laroche. that prompted an e-mail from a knowledgeable source, who told me the cards did look into a rolen-for-laroche deal (as reported here two months ago by occasional VEB diarist pzonehitter). the dodgers, however, wouldn't offer laroche unless the cards would also agree to take juan pierre --- whose contract is one of the worst in baseball, many times worse than scott rolen's. the dodgers, not unreasonably, never budged off that position --- if they were gonna taken on our crappy contract, we'd have to take on theirs. the cards wisely declined.

dan szymbroski posted the ZIPS projections for rolen and glaus, indexed to their new ballparks:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB AVG OBP SLG OPS+
rolen 380 58 93 24 1 10 57 38 .245 .319 .392 84
glaus 469 71 120 22 0 24 78 77 .256 .362 .456 112

* * * * * * * * *

a friend of mine who's doing a research project about sabermetrics vaguely recalls reading a statement on the subject by tony la russa a few years ago. in answer to an interviewer's question, la russa said --- more or less --- that stats guys struck him as arrogant because they try to tell him something that he has seen with his own eyes isn't true. he said he'd rather have a video machine than a stats guy. this friend knows he read the interview online but now can't track it down; does it ring a bell for anyone? i already asked if the quote came from "3 Nights in August" --- it doesn't, my friend has already checked. if you recognize this quote and know where it can be found, please advise.

Update [2008-1-15 9:13:31 by lboros]: well, that was easy. a VEBber named john immediately e-mailed a link to the quote, which reads:

"I've been sat down and told they can give me a better way to do everything," Tony La Russa, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals and the hero of a new book celebrating the hunch, said last week, describing the statistics crowd. "They really are convinced that they can sit there and crunch out a formula that negates my power of observation.

"It's been a little irritating, because there's a certain arrogance with that whole group."

the quote's from 2005, in an interview promoting "3 Nights in August." many thanks, john. [/update]

* * * * * * * * *

late last winter i launched an all-time cardinals simulation tournament. it was a good idea that generated a lot of interest, but it failed in the execution because i got a late start and was using an archaic simulation program; the thing never got out of the first round. last month Zubin wrote me with a different concept for a tournament. with a better simulation program and an earlier start, i think (fingers crossed) we can manage to get all the way through it.

this concept surfaced briefly last year --- a tournament of cardinal championship teams. in the modern era st louis has produced 17 pennant winners; that's a four-round tournament (with a play-in game tacked on at the beginning). Zubin, who is a student of 19th-century baseball, proposed expanding the field to include the championship teams of the 1880s, when the cardinals --- then known as the browns, and led by player-manager charlie comiskey (the future white sox owner) --- took four consecutive pennants in the american association. he also advocated the inclusion of the la russa era's division-winning teams --- the 1996, 2000, 2002, and 2005 clubs, each of which won a playoff series but fell short of a pennant.

the resulting field comprises 25 teams --- every club in franchise history that won a championship, pennant, or division title. here they are:

world
champs
pennant
winners
division
winners
1886: 93-46, .669 1885: 79-33, .705 1996: 88-74, .543
1926: 89-65, .578 1887: 95-40, .704 2000: 95-67, .586
1931: 101-53, .656 1888: 95-40, .704 2002: 97-65, .599
1934: 95-58, .621 1928: 95-59, .617 2005: 100-62, .617
1942: 106-48, .688 1930: 92-62, .597
1944: 105-49, .682 1943: 105-49, .682
1946: 98-58, .628 1968: 92-62, .597
1964: 93-69, .574 1985: 101-61, .623
1967: 101-60, .627 1987: 95-67, .586
1982: 92-70, .568 2004: 105-57, .648
2006: 83-78, .516

the 2001 team was omitted because a) technically it finished 2d, b) it didn't win a playoff series, and c) enough already with the 00s teams; they're already amply represented.

how to cram these 25 teams into a 16-team bracket? it wasn't easy, but Zubin devised a solution that's fair and surprisingly elegant. take a look:

the 11 championship winners all merit privileged status and thus get automatic entry into the sweet 16. that leaves 5 spots in the bracket, and 14 teams competing for them. 6 of the 14 play-in teams get a first-round bye; the other 8 will play each other in round 1, and the 4 survivors will join the bye teams in round 2. the winners of the 5 round-2 series will join the 11 championship teams to create the final field of 16. at that point all the teams will be re-seeded based on regular-season winning percentage, and off we'll go.

the games will be simulated via WhatIf Sports' Sim Matchup program. each matchup will consist of a best-of-7 series. Zubin and i are dividing up the sims; our managerial decisions will be limited to a) setting the pitching pairings, and b) setting the lineups; the simulator will handle all the in-game maneuvers. we'll be referring to each team's actual postseason box scores to ensure realistic lineups, rotation decisions, etc etc.

we're gonna start posting the results on friday, and add new results each day. the four first-round series will be played concurrently --- think the nlds / alds, with four series going on simultaneously. friday's schedule will include Game 1 of two first-round series; on saturday we'll put up the Game 2 results from those series, along with the Game 1s from the other two first-round matchups. we'll go forward like that, game by game and round by round, with new results every afternoon; the championship series should take place about halfway through spring training.

if anybody's interested in lending a hand with the write-ups, send me an e-mail (vivaelbirdos AT yahoo DOT com). Cardinal70 has posted a tournament tracker; he's also accepting ballots from anybody who's interested in filling out a bracket and submitting picks before the tournament starts.

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Salary
Larry or Zubin, could you explain the Salary column in the bracket?  It seems like these numbers must have been normalized era to era somehow, but then how did the 2006 team have a salary of $66 million?  Or maybe it's a tournament-specific valuation of each team?  Thanks.

by jfs on Jan 15, 2008 8:55 AM EST   0 recs

yes, normalized salary
WhatIf Sports assigns a normalized "salary" to every individual player-season. the salary is a rough measure of the quality of the given season. accordingly, the team salary column (which sums up the salaries of each player on the team) is, to some extent, a rough measure of quality.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 9:02 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

This gives me yet another chance to
reminisce about 2004-2005. I miss Murder's row and the MV3. Larry Walker patrolling the outfield. Grudz posting a surprisingly good year. A pitching staff that felt stable. Chris Carpenter emerging as the best pitcher in the NL. Mulder's 10 inning shutout against the Rocket. The King-Kline lefty combo of 2004.

sigh

I miss those years. I enjoyed them more than 2006.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 9:01 AM EST   0 recs

I like to think
of the 2006 championship as the one the team should've had in 2004, if not for running into the buzzsaw that was the Red Sox.

As an aside, I have a rarely worn Scott Rolen home jersey available for cheap...

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jan 15, 2008 10:04 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

What about an Edmonds Jersey?
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Jan 15, 2008 1:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I've only worn my Edmonds jersey
to a game once.  I'm gonna get more out of it than that even if he isn't there anymore. ;)

by saladdays on Jan 15, 2008 2:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

At the time I got the Rolen jersey
the team store didn't have any Edmonds jerseys. So I got a Rolen.

Based upon their exits from the Cardinals, aside from the fact that Jimmy is my favorite recent Cardinals player...I'd much rather have the Edmonds and I'd definitely hang onto it.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jan 15, 2008 4:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Can I ask how much you paid for
that jersey, and (since I'm assuming it was quite a lot based on what I see in the team stores), why you did so?  I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely curious about why people buy the player jerseys in baseball/hockey/football, etc.  Any team gear that's more than about $30 is usually too rich for my blood, not that I couldn't afford more, but I've never understood why people spring for those jerseys.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 15, 2008 3:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I get a new jersey
every year, because I'm an idiot and like to throw my money away. It's very childish to do so, but then again, so am I. My last few purchases have been disastrous, though: Edmonds, Marquis, Rolen, Carp. Wainwright is the only active and healthy guy I have left, and I fear for him. I mentioned last night to my wife that I might get a Molina one for this season and she said she won't let me. She like Yadi too much.

I may have to go with a retired one this year. I've been meaning to get a Kile jersey for some time now.

Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 15, 2008 3:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

If you've got $300 to drop
check out Mitchell and Ness.  They've got Gibby, Musial and Brock in wool.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 4:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Wow, how many game tickets
and beers could I get for $300?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 15, 2008 4:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

two scoreboard tickets
and a little left over money for patty o's.  
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jan 15, 2008 5:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well, with the jersey
you can wear it for the next 10 years and without the beer, your liver will thank you.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I like their Ozzie
powder blue one. Unfortunatly, I don;t really like Ozzie. If they made a McGee blue one, I'd unwisely buy it.
Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 15, 2008 4:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm partial
to the white Gibby pullover. You can find it on ebay for a little over $100.

by plh903 on Jan 15, 2008 5:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Oh, let's see...
it was 2004...and I think it was about $120. Might've only been $99...can't remember exactly.

It wasn't the full player's replica jersey with the small number on the front of the uniform.

I actually wanted an Edmonds jersey, but the team store in Busch II didn't have any.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jan 15, 2008 4:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mulder game
I was at that Mulder game, the best game I have ever seen (and may ever see).  It was cold and windy, and my friends and I moved down to get into the sun.  By time the bottom of the ninth was over, I was counting up the pitch count I had kept on my scorecard, and confirmed with my friends that they also had him in the mid 90s.  When he came back out for the 10th, it was one of the loudest ovations I have ever heard.

by Choix003 on Jan 15, 2008 12:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

RE: LaRussa and Stats Guys
I haven't seen that specific quote, and "a couple of years ago" could be 2 or it could be 10.  I'd be worried if it was 2, but could give a shit less if it were 10.  That's a long time ago in baseball years.  

The only real discussion of number-crunchers in general in "3 Nights" came in a section discussing overall strategy.  Bissinger wrote something like this: LaRussa understood the approach that the A's used in getting guys who get on base, and generally agreed with it.  However, in RBI situations he felt the "table was already set" and therefore wanted his hitters to be a little more aggressive.  That was about it in the whole book, which focused more on TLR's life and his in-game decision making process.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 9:11 AM EST   0 recs

The article with the quote is from 2005
And the author says "last week" when talking about what TLR was saying.

by sdrone on Jan 15, 2008 9:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

But
the last line of the article also says this:

"The 'Moneyball' kind of stuff has its place, but so does the human," La Russa said by telephone from Pittsburgh. "Really, the combination is the answer."

by cardsgirl95 on Jan 15, 2008 10:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

good point
Cardsgirl--but it's not nearly as fun a quote if you don't put the last line in it. We need to make TLR look like he hates all sabermetric dudes.

Tony was always known as a stat guy for the longest time. Heck, many fans get mad at him for worrying too much about stats, matchups, numbers, etc. Yet the "other" crowd says he is anti-stats. Kinda weird.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 10:12 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

MGL has said before
that LaRussa was not very receptive to statistical analysis. As someone who actually worked with him, I'll go with that.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 11:16 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Many
of Tony's detractors hate how he uses stats so much. He's too smart of a guy to not look at them. Tony may be many things but dumb isn't one of them.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 11:25 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

no, he's not dumb
but he is stubborn. if someone has a good idea that's outside his comfort / trust zone, his tendency is to resist the idea regardless of the merits. tony also can be surprisingly insecure for a guy of such great achievements; i think intelligent people with good ideas sometimes feel threatening to him.

ron shandler tells much the same tale as MGL.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 11:31 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

TLR/Knight/Belichick
These three are friends for a reason.  They all can be giant asse's but they are also three of the best coaches of all time.

Take it for what it's worth.  Yes they all have been wrong but they have been right a lot of times doing what works for them.

I will leave it at that.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 11:38 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

understood that
Heck, I think we are all that way from time to time. Of course I've read Ron Shandler is a loner type who prefers to work alone and comes off as arrogant.

My point--we all kind of think our way is the way--and we are tough to change. My main point on this is that I don't think Tony is anti-stats, etc.

He was one of the very first guys to use stats in the dugout, he has all the numbers, most of his decisions are based in statistical data. Does he embrace the whole "sabermetric movement"? Maybe not. But it doesnt mean he doesn't appreciate them in context.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 12:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

The Catch:
The catch isn't that LaRussa doesn't use stats...I don't think anyone around here thinks TLR doesn't USE them.  The issue is his interest in statistical analysis (or maybe statistical analYSTS more specifically), which is a different thing entirely.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 12:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

stats
Some stats are absolutely worthless.  I don't like fielding stats.  I can watch a guy and tell you if he is a good fielder.  I dont need all these dumb rzr, uzr, and whatnot.  Fielding percentage and watching tells you plenty.

It is all about figuring out what the best stats are and using those stats.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 1:18 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

you should learn more about the stats
before you dismiss them. do you even know what data UZR and RZR are based on? do you know the theory behind them?

you may think they're worthless, but they're worth a lot to big-league decisionmakers. the Cardinals paid MGL a pretty penny a few years back for the proprietary rights to UZR. and most big-league teams are paying their number-crunchers fistfuls more to produce even more reliable, more meaningful fielding statistics.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 1:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Here is my take
Due to following this site each day the past 9 months or so I have learned to really appreciate all the stats and metrics.  However I also played college baseball and I feel there is something to be said for flat out watching players palyer aka.. the scout role.  I trust my eyes to tell the initial story and then I may look at some stats more so to help make decisions.

I think some people on this board however use stats a bit too much at times, because many have said much better than myself stats don't tell you everything.

It think a balance is needed, but I get the idea you get some number crunches who think they are pretty smart and could throw together a fantasy league team but don't know everything about the game of baseball.

But I do think the stats are fun to go through.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

direct observation is essential
there's no substitute for it. it can tell you things you would never learn from stats. there have been many times when i formed one opinion about a player based on his stat line, but changed it radically once i saw the guy on the field.

but the eyes often mislead. we all have our blind spots and our biases, and statistics --- if used properly --- can correct those flaws in our vision.

it's pretty clear that a blend of stats and direct scouting is gonna produce better results than either a pure-stats or pure-scouting approach. even billy beane would acknowledge that --- he played the game, after all, and he knows that the game is played by real people and not by strat-o-matic cards. but the stats do have meaning, if you know how to use them and you use them in balance.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 2:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

stats
i think some of over-reliance on stats by fans stems from the fact that stats are all that fans have access to.  i think there is a happy medium between the two.  you can use some stats to reveal things that scouting might not show.  you can use scouting to reveal things that stats might not show.  however, the average fan doesnt have access to those scouting tools.  they dont travel to 100+ games a year and sit in the stands with a gun.  they dont have reports from teams of scouts at every level.  all they have are stats and a handful of scouting nuggets tossed out at baseball america or some other publication.  when pondering a question such as should you trade player A for player B, the only tool at their disposal is a spreadsheet.

by dmb60614 on Jan 15, 2008 3:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

i don't
even have cable - one game a week on fox

by cdb on Jan 15, 2008 4:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

understood
Larry...And heck, Im a stat guy--even more than an "observation, gut" guy. But I think/hope you would agree that many of the stat guys come off as rather standoffish, arrogant, and condecending.

It gets frustrating at times. They drop ISO, VORP, UZR, etc. and if people dont "get it" then obviously they are uneducated dumbasses. Im not saying you are this way---its just a general feel I get from the sabermetric community...like they are the only ones that "get it" and the rest of us aren't quite as enlightened. Because many of them couldn't play the game they are involved in another way.

It gets frustrating. It's nice to have a healthy balance where BOTH groups respect each other and what they briing--right now, Im not sure that's the case and both groups are to blame.

It's like guys who drop degrees or Ivy School references all the time. That gets played out. Just because he's a 30-something cat from Yale doesn't mean much to me.

Sorry to rant--just my thoughts on the issue. Do I think Tony could be more open to new things? Yes. But I think he actually puts more of it to use than people give him credit for.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

you make fair points
i don't disagree --- sometimes the stats guys just want to prove that they're the smartest guy in the room (or on the board), and they use the stats as a club to beat others about the head instead of using them instructively.

i would argue that the disrespect goes both ways --- there is definitely a crowd that says "you never played the game, so you don't know shit" --- but i agree that in an ideal world, both groups would learn from one another.

i think jeff luhnow pretty well embodies that point of balance you're describing. obviously he values stats and trusts them, but from various sources i know that he does not discount a scout's "gut feeling" in the cards' draft war room --- on the contrary, he trusts that a lot, which helps explain why they drafted kozma and (to a lesser extent) rasmus, as well as later-round gems such as jaime garcia and tyler henley. every time i've exchanged e-mail with him, he goes to great lengths to address players on a qualitiative as well as quantitative basis.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 2:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

awesome
discussion and thanks. I agree about Luhnow--that's why I like him and trust him right now. He doesn't appear to flash his degrees, stats, etc. He has confidence in them and knows they work--but he knows other ways work.

Time will tell on him obviously but I really like his approach...heck, I've been impressed with Mozeliak so far as well.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Just sayin'
IsoP was developed by Branch Rickey over 50 years ago.

You're speaking truth, though. Sabermetrics would probably be further along if Bill James and the like spent more effort winning his intended audience instead of attacking it.

Tom Tango seems like a class act, though. And Dave Studeman most certainly is, from the very limited contact I've had with him. Not all statsmen are condescending assholes, but too many aspire to be.

Josh, at the now-sadly-defunct Birdwatch, nailed this sentiment well in his review of 3 Nights in August:

In the case of Moneyball there was a built in audience of new school baseball fans whose self image (as baseball fans) was built around being more informed and smarter than the average fan and troglodyte baseball executive. Moneyball was a hit with this audience. When somebody writes a book that says people who think like you are brilliant and avante [sic] guard and the wave of the future, it's hard not to agree with the guy.

by liam on Jan 15, 2008 3:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Three months ago
I couldn't even spell statistician...now I are one.

 

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 2:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

fielding percentage....
and watching?  I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but using fielding percentage alone would tell you that David Eckstein (.979) is a better fielder than Osbourne Earl Smith (.978).  

by jdub176 on Jan 15, 2008 1:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

oops
It's "Osborne."  Should have just called him Ozzie...

by jdub176 on Jan 15, 2008 1:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Here is what I said
  1. Watching-  the best method of all
  2. Fielding %-  tells a lot just because you can tell if the guy can at least catch and throw the ball consistently.
I of course could watch both and tell you Ozzie is a better fielder.  In a limited time obviously we can't watch each player in the league play 150 games a year.  But watching is the best way to tell what type of fielder you have.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

watching fielding in particular
is the easiest way to lead to an incorrect assessment.  Just look at the gold glove awards.  People remember flash.  They're biased.  They see what they want to see and turn a blind eye to anything that disagrees with them.  

People like "well I believe my eyes" because that statement makes whatever babble they spout out seem irrefutable.  It makes them feel safe and unchallenged.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jan 15, 2008 5:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I don't agree
People who don't understand baseball mechanics can not watch players play because they have absolutely no idea what to look at that leads to the end result.  I guess maybe there are a lot of writers who have never played baseball above the little league level and have zero ability to analyze the game.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 6:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

You keep using the term "watching"
as if there is only one context for it.  It's either watching players or stats.  But that's not the case at all.  When scouts "watch" players, they're generally looking for certain tools and abilities and "watch" them, in great detail, often.

Fans, on the other hand, often say "well I've seen so-and-so play defense and he's one of the best in the game." Then, when the stats say otherwise, that person says something like "stats are useless" or "overused" or "can't replace the human eye."  "I don't care what the stats say, he's great!" or whatever.

Unfortunately, when fans say that they've "seen" someone and offer some vantage point that runs contrary to what the stats say, it's based on a couple of incidents that often aren't representative of the entire body of work.  Anecdotal evidence, b/c we only really "see" part of what we say we saw or only remember portions of it, just isn't that valuable.  When scouts "see" something, it's usually incredibly worthwhile.  When fans say they "saw" something, it usually isn't.

Too often we, as fans, make snap judgements about players or their abilities based on the fact that we "saw" them a couple of times.  Stats, therefore, are usually much better than fans' anecdotal evidence.  Scouts, on the other hand, are a whole different ball of yarn.  Scouts saw big homer potential in Chris Duncan even when the stats weren't there.  Eventually, the stats were able to reflect his ability to hit homers.

I'm not questioning you, in particular, here.  Likely you see things as a former player that most fans don't see.  But, if so, you're the exception, not the rule.  Therefore, if average fan A says "I saw X" and the stats say something contrary, I'll go w/ the stats.  Scouts, however, are an entirely different story.

by houstoncardinal on Jan 15, 2008 6:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I saw...
Travis Lee rake bombs to the upper deck in batting practice.  The best display I had ever seen.  Therefore, Travis Lee is awesome.

You were saying?

by Merry CRasmus on Jan 15, 2008 9:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

For the record
..the Gold Glove awards are voted on by managers and coaches in each league, not the writers.  

by jdub176 on Jan 16, 2008 1:04 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Fielding Percentage
...is not a good one to choose unless its used in context.  If a guy were to stand in one place and make every single play within his bubble of reach he'd have a 1.000 fielding percentage.  

I also tend to not trust my eyes when trying to actually figure out if a guy is a good fielder b/c if they make a few spectacular plays that might throw off your perspective.  Also, there are just so many things that you can't see/miss by watching (positioning and jump aren't visible unless you're watching that player the entire game and nothing else) that its just not the best way to get a total package of a guy's defensive skills.  

I'm not saying that Dewan's system, RF, UZR, OOZ, etc. are perfect systems...just that they're not useless either.

 

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 2:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

it's all in context
It's all in context for sure.  I think you definitely need stats this day and age, considering the size of contracts and whatnot.  You would not be acting in a smart manner if you avoid looking at those things.

However I feel if you watch a player you can pick up on things.  I don't get fooled by great plays.  I can watch a guy and tell his arm strenght, the way he travels to the ball in a controled manner, weather his hands are soft, and how his feet look.  I just was saying I don't need stats to look at that.  I will go watch a highly touted HS kid and I can tell if his IF skills project or not.  

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:51 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

and sometimes
a poor fielder will make a routine play look spectacular by diving etc while a great fielder would have handled it effortlessly and not looked nearly as impressive doing it.  

For fielding especially, where at most you'll see a player make 4-5 plays a game, the eyes are a terrible evaluation tool.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 15, 2008 3:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

"Eyes are a terrible evaluation tool"
Maybe two eyes just give an insufficient sample. (I'm sure you know about that project, just thought it relevant.)

by liam on Jan 15, 2008 3:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

And this,
is exactly what IC and LB were talking about. This attitude that eyes are a "terrible evaluation tool" and are not as good as stats. Eyes are incomplete, sure, but so are stats.  Both need the other to truly evaluate a player's ability.

by Jhusk on Jan 15, 2008 3:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It would be more accurate to say that eyes are
very good evaluation tools, but unfortunately they are connected to human brains, which do not always process information objectively.  Our brains tend to overvalue spectacular plays (and horrible plays, for that matter), giving them too much weight in our consideration of a fielder's ability. Human brains are also very selective about what they remember, and are strongly influenced by emotion. Read any of the literature about perception, memory, etc. and you will see that there are a scary number of ways in which we can delude ourselves without realizing it.  If you just like to sit in the stands and watch guys play baseball, you could argue that stats mean little or nothing.  If you're in charge of a $100 million budget, however, you better not just rely on yer lyin' eyes.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 15, 2008 3:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

mdredbirdfreak
your comments were so right on that I read it twice. Wish I could express my thoughts that well.

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 4:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

To Those Who Vote For Gold Gloves
"Please keep relying solely on your eyes.  Thank you"

-Derrek Lee

by flynn on Jan 15, 2008 5:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Whoever
Who cares?  I could care less about D Lee wining a gold glove.  Are you worried because Albert did not win the gold glove.  

I am a Cardinal fan who could care less about the perception of my team award wise.  It does not make me more money, or really change my life one bit.  I guess I am just a lot different than others who have some sort of heart attack if Jadi or Albert lose out on some award that is has zero affect on a fans life.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 6:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

isn't that part of being a fan?
those heart attacks, i mean.

by baw on Jan 16, 2008 12:52 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

heh
You don't think awards have ramifications beyond the winners having to rearrange their mantles?  

by jdub176 on Jan 16, 2008 2:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Just an observation
Every defensive metric says something different about Glaus. One says he'll be fine, one says he'll be horrible, one says he'll be near Rolen etc, etc. Personally you need to use everything, including intangibles like "your eyes" to make well-informed decisions. I think Dave Duncan does a good job of translating statistics to on-field performance. He can show a pitcher when he throws a strike in a certain location, the most likely outcome. Then it's just a matter of getting the pitcher to listen!
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jan 15, 2008 3:53 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

as discussed yesterday
at "the mockingbird" and elsewhere (BTF thread I don't feel like searching for), the various defensive metrics in use are based off of two different sets of data.  Both sets of data come from people who sit in the stands and watch players, making little marks on pieces of paper to show what balls should have been fielded etc, and those people, who get paid to watch baseball all day long, had completely different assessments of Troy Glaus.  

In this case, it's not the fielding stats that are "bad", it's the eyes of one (or both) of the guys in the stands in Toronto...

This discussion does illustrate one point that hasn't been made about fielding stats- we can't trust them 100% because they are meta-stats.  They aren't like the Chadwick Batting Average which is based off of something concrete (hits per at bat).  With the exception of fpct, which should be dismissed (and is still subject to the whims of the official scorer for defining "errors"), fielding skill goes through a filter based on someone's opinions, biases, and event recording skill with the accompanying opportunities for human error even before the stat programs do their number crunching.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 15, 2008 5:37 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Human Element
That's kind of my point. I am not saying stats are right or observing is right. A blend of them is essential when you are playing a human game. A player who is pissed off in a certain game (due to whatever reason) will effect his outcome whether positive or negative. (He may swing a little harder.) Stats to me, give the impression of what the player will do over the long haul. He may deviate +/- a few points off of whatever you are measuring, but you know that the outcome over the season will be pretty close. The manager however needs to be able to recognize certain nuances in the human element to maximize opportunity. An example could be a pitchers mechanics are a little off. A manager would want to correct that. A stat isn't going to say he's pitching 2 inches over from where he usually throws off the rubber. (Or whatever) Stats can predict pretty close to what they will do over the season and the manager needs to make sure that the player is on the positive side of the prediction.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jan 15, 2008 6:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

MGL
MGL seems like an arrogant ass, I wouldn't take what he says as 100% trut.  Heck someone that arrogant can't get along with someone as arrogant as TLR.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 12:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

who
is MGL? Should I know this guy?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mitchel Lichtman
who developed Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR) and worked for the Cardinals for several years, although not currently.  Co-authored "The Book" with Tom Tango and Andrew Dolphin.

b