Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

tourney time

one final piece of news regarding the rolen trade. at the end of my knee-jerk analysis when the news broke on saturday, i remarked off-handedly that while i liked the trade, i'd rather see the cards get back a young player like andy laroche. that prompted an e-mail from a knowledgeable source, who told me the cards did look into a rolen-for-laroche deal (as reported here two months ago by occasional VEB diarist pzonehitter). the dodgers, however, wouldn't offer laroche unless the cards would also agree to take juan pierre --- whose contract is one of the worst in baseball, many times worse than scott rolen's. the dodgers, not unreasonably, never budged off that position --- if they were gonna taken on our crappy contract, we'd have to take on theirs. the cards wisely declined.

dan szymbroski posted the ZIPS projections for rolen and glaus, indexed to their new ballparks:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB AVG OBP SLG OPS+
rolen 380 58 93 24 1 10 57 38 .245 .319 .392 84
glaus 469 71 120 22 0 24 78 77 .256 .362 .456 112

* * * * * * * * *

a friend of mine who's doing a research project about sabermetrics vaguely recalls reading a statement on the subject by tony la russa a few years ago. in answer to an interviewer's question, la russa said --- more or less --- that stats guys struck him as arrogant because they try to tell him something that he has seen with his own eyes isn't true. he said he'd rather have a video machine than a stats guy. this friend knows he read the interview online but now can't track it down; does it ring a bell for anyone? i already asked if the quote came from "3 Nights in August" --- it doesn't, my friend has already checked. if you recognize this quote and know where it can be found, please advise.

Update [2008-1-15 9:13:31 by lboros]: well, that was easy. a VEBber named john immediately e-mailed a link to the quote, which reads:

"I've been sat down and told they can give me a better way to do everything," Tony La Russa, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals and the hero of a new book celebrating the hunch, said last week, describing the statistics crowd. "They really are convinced that they can sit there and crunch out a formula that negates my power of observation.

"It's been a little irritating, because there's a certain arrogance with that whole group."

the quote's from 2005, in an interview promoting "3 Nights in August." many thanks, john. [/update]

* * * * * * * * *

late last winter i launched an all-time cardinals simulation tournament. it was a good idea that generated a lot of interest, but it failed in the execution because i got a late start and was using an archaic simulation program; the thing never got out of the first round. last month Zubin wrote me with a different concept for a tournament. with a better simulation program and an earlier start, i think (fingers crossed) we can manage to get all the way through it.

this concept surfaced briefly last year --- a tournament of cardinal championship teams. in the modern era st louis has produced 17 pennant winners; that's a four-round tournament (with a play-in game tacked on at the beginning). Zubin, who is a student of 19th-century baseball, proposed expanding the field to include the championship teams of the 1880s, when the cardinals --- then known as the browns, and led by player-manager charlie comiskey (the future white sox owner) --- took four consecutive pennants in the american association. he also advocated the inclusion of the la russa era's division-winning teams --- the 1996, 2000, 2002, and 2005 clubs, each of which won a playoff series but fell short of a pennant.

the resulting field comprises 25 teams --- every club in franchise history that won a championship, pennant, or division title. here they are:

world
champs
pennant
winners
division
winners
1886: 93-46, .669 1885: 79-33, .705 1996: 88-74, .543
1926: 89-65, .578 1887: 95-40, .704 2000: 95-67, .586
1931: 101-53, .656 1888: 95-40, .704 2002: 97-65, .599
1934: 95-58, .621 1928: 95-59, .617 2005: 100-62, .617
1942: 106-48, .688 1930: 92-62, .597
1944: 105-49, .682 1943: 105-49, .682
1946: 98-58, .628 1968: 92-62, .597
1964: 93-69, .574 1985: 101-61, .623
1967: 101-60, .627 1987: 95-67, .586
1982: 92-70, .568 2004: 105-57, .648
2006: 83-78, .516

the 2001 team was omitted because a) technically it finished 2d, b) it didn't win a playoff series, and c) enough already with the 00s teams; they're already amply represented.

how to cram these 25 teams into a 16-team bracket? it wasn't easy, but Zubin devised a solution that's fair and surprisingly elegant. take a look:

the 11 championship winners all merit privileged status and thus get automatic entry into the sweet 16. that leaves 5 spots in the bracket, and 14 teams competing for them. 6 of the 14 play-in teams get a first-round bye; the other 8 will play each other in round 1, and the 4 survivors will join the bye teams in round 2. the winners of the 5 round-2 series will join the 11 championship teams to create the final field of 16. at that point all the teams will be re-seeded based on regular-season winning percentage, and off we'll go.

the games will be simulated via WhatIf Sports' Sim Matchup program. each matchup will consist of a best-of-7 series. Zubin and i are dividing up the sims; our managerial decisions will be limited to a) setting the pitching pairings, and b) setting the lineups; the simulator will handle all the in-game maneuvers. we'll be referring to each team's actual postseason box scores to ensure realistic lineups, rotation decisions, etc etc.

we're gonna start posting the results on friday, and add new results each day. the four first-round series will be played concurrently --- think the nlds / alds, with four series going on simultaneously. friday's schedule will include Game 1 of two first-round series; on saturday we'll put up the Game 2 results from those series, along with the Game 1s from the other two first-round matchups. we'll go forward like that, game by game and round by round, with new results every afternoon; the championship series should take place about halfway through spring training.

if anybody's interested in lending a hand with the write-ups, send me an e-mail (vivaelbirdos AT yahoo DOT com). Cardinal70 has posted a tournament tracker; he's also accepting ballots from anybody who's interested in filling out a bracket and submitting picks before the tournament starts.

0 recs  |  Comment 150 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Salary
Larry or Zubin, could you explain the Salary column in the bracket?  It seems like these numbers must have been normalized era to era somehow, but then how did the 2006 team have a salary of $66 million?  Or maybe it's a tournament-specific valuation of each team?  Thanks.

by jfs on Jan 15, 2008 8:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

yes, normalized salary
WhatIf Sports assigns a normalized "salary" to every individual player-season. the salary is a rough measure of the quality of the given season. accordingly, the team salary column (which sums up the salaries of each player on the team) is, to some extent, a rough measure of quality.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 9:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This gives me yet another chance to
reminisce about 2004-2005. I miss Murder's row and the MV3. Larry Walker patrolling the outfield. Grudz posting a surprisingly good year. A pitching staff that felt stable. Chris Carpenter emerging as the best pitcher in the NL. Mulder's 10 inning shutout against the Rocket. The King-Kline lefty combo of 2004.

sigh

I miss those years. I enjoyed them more than 2006.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 9:01 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like to think
of the 2006 championship as the one the team should've had in 2004, if not for running into the buzzsaw that was the Red Sox.

As an aside, I have a rarely worn Scott Rolen home jersey available for cheap...

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jan 15, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about an Edmonds Jersey?
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Jan 15, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've only worn my Edmonds jersey
to a game once.  I'm gonna get more out of it than that even if he isn't there anymore. ;)

by saladdays on Jan 15, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At the time I got the Rolen jersey
the team store didn't have any Edmonds jerseys. So I got a Rolen.

Based upon their exits from the Cardinals, aside from the fact that Jimmy is my favorite recent Cardinals player...I'd much rather have the Edmonds and I'd definitely hang onto it.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jan 15, 2008 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can I ask how much you paid for
that jersey, and (since I'm assuming it was quite a lot based on what I see in the team stores), why you did so?  I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely curious about why people buy the player jerseys in baseball/hockey/football, etc.  Any team gear that's more than about $30 is usually too rich for my blood, not that I couldn't afford more, but I've never understood why people spring for those jerseys.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 15, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I get a new jersey
every year, because I'm an idiot and like to throw my money away. It's very childish to do so, but then again, so am I. My last few purchases have been disastrous, though: Edmonds, Marquis, Rolen, Carp. Wainwright is the only active and healthy guy I have left, and I fear for him. I mentioned last night to my wife that I might get a Molina one for this season and she said she won't let me. She like Yadi too much.

I may have to go with a retired one this year. I've been meaning to get a Kile jersey for some time now.

Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 15, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you've got $300 to drop
check out Mitchell and Ness.  They've got Gibby, Musial and Brock in wool.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, how many game tickets
and beers could I get for $300?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 15, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

two scoreboard tickets
and a little left over money for patty o's.  
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jan 15, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, with the jersey
you can wear it for the next 10 years and without the beer, your liver will thank you.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like their Ozzie
powder blue one. Unfortunatly, I don;t really like Ozzie. If they made a McGee blue one, I'd unwisely buy it.
Fame was like a drug, but what was even more like a drug were the drugs

by Alxfritz on Jan 15, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm partial
to the white Gibby pullover. You can find it on ebay for a little over $100.

by plh903 on Jan 15, 2008 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, let's see...
it was 2004...and I think it was about $120. Might've only been $99...can't remember exactly.

It wasn't the full player's replica jersey with the small number on the front of the uniform.

I actually wanted an Edmonds jersey, but the team store in Busch II didn't have any.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jan 15, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mulder game
I was at that Mulder game, the best game I have ever seen (and may ever see).  It was cold and windy, and my friends and I moved down to get into the sun.  By time the bottom of the ninth was over, I was counting up the pitch count I had kept on my scorecard, and confirmed with my friends that they also had him in the mid 90s.  When he came back out for the 10th, it was one of the loudest ovations I have ever heard.

by Choix003 on Jan 15, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RE: LaRussa and Stats Guys
I haven't seen that specific quote, and "a couple of years ago" could be 2 or it could be 10.  I'd be worried if it was 2, but could give a shit less if it were 10.  That's a long time ago in baseball years.  

The only real discussion of number-crunchers in general in "3 Nights" came in a section discussing overall strategy.  Bissinger wrote something like this: LaRussa understood the approach that the A's used in getting guys who get on base, and generally agreed with it.  However, in RBI situations he felt the "table was already set" and therefore wanted his hitters to be a little more aggressive.  That was about it in the whole book, which focused more on TLR's life and his in-game decision making process.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 9:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The article with the quote is from 2005
And the author says "last week" when talking about what TLR was saying.

by sdrone on Jan 15, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But
the last line of the article also says this:

"The 'Moneyball' kind of stuff has its place, but so does the human," La Russa said by telephone from Pittsburgh. "Really, the combination is the answer."

by cardsgirl95 on Jan 15, 2008 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good point
Cardsgirl--but it's not nearly as fun a quote if you don't put the last line in it. We need to make TLR look like he hates all sabermetric dudes.

Tony was always known as a stat guy for the longest time. Heck, many fans get mad at him for worrying too much about stats, matchups, numbers, etc. Yet the "other" crowd says he is anti-stats. Kinda weird.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 10:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MGL has said before
that LaRussa was not very receptive to statistical analysis. As someone who actually worked with him, I'll go with that.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Many
of Tony's detractors hate how he uses stats so much. He's too smart of a guy to not look at them. Tony may be many things but dumb isn't one of them.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, he's not dumb
but he is stubborn. if someone has a good idea that's outside his comfort / trust zone, his tendency is to resist the idea regardless of the merits. tony also can be surprisingly insecure for a guy of such great achievements; i think intelligent people with good ideas sometimes feel threatening to him.

ron shandler tells much the same tale as MGL.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TLR/Knight/Belichick
These three are friends for a reason.  They all can be giant asse's but they are also three of the best coaches of all time.

Take it for what it's worth.  Yes they all have been wrong but they have been right a lot of times doing what works for them.

I will leave it at that.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

understood that
Heck, I think we are all that way from time to time. Of course I've read Ron Shandler is a loner type who prefers to work alone and comes off as arrogant.

My point--we all kind of think our way is the way--and we are tough to change. My main point on this is that I don't think Tony is anti-stats, etc.

He was one of the very first guys to use stats in the dugout, he has all the numbers, most of his decisions are based in statistical data. Does he embrace the whole "sabermetric movement"? Maybe not. But it doesnt mean he doesn't appreciate them in context.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Catch:
The catch isn't that LaRussa doesn't use stats...I don't think anyone around here thinks TLR doesn't USE them.  The issue is his interest in statistical analysis (or maybe statistical analYSTS more specifically), which is a different thing entirely.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

stats
Some stats are absolutely worthless.  I don't like fielding stats.  I can watch a guy and tell you if he is a good fielder.  I dont need all these dumb rzr, uzr, and whatnot.  Fielding percentage and watching tells you plenty.

It is all about figuring out what the best stats are and using those stats.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you should learn more about the stats
before you dismiss them. do you even know what data UZR and RZR are based on? do you know the theory behind them?

you may think they're worthless, but they're worth a lot to big-league decisionmakers. the Cardinals paid MGL a pretty penny a few years back for the proprietary rights to UZR. and most big-league teams are paying their number-crunchers fistfuls more to produce even more reliable, more meaningful fielding statistics.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here is my take
Due to following this site each day the past 9 months or so I have learned to really appreciate all the stats and metrics.  However I also played college baseball and I feel there is something to be said for flat out watching players palyer aka.. the scout role.  I trust my eyes to tell the initial story and then I may look at some stats more so to help make decisions.

I think some people on this board however use stats a bit too much at times, because many have said much better than myself stats don't tell you everything.

It think a balance is needed, but I get the idea you get some number crunches who think they are pretty smart and could throw together a fantasy league team but don't know everything about the game of baseball.

But I do think the stats are fun to go through.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

direct observation is essential
there's no substitute for it. it can tell you things you would never learn from stats. there have been many times when i formed one opinion about a player based on his stat line, but changed it radically once i saw the guy on the field.

but the eyes often mislead. we all have our blind spots and our biases, and statistics --- if used properly --- can correct those flaws in our vision.

it's pretty clear that a blend of stats and direct scouting is gonna produce better results than either a pure-stats or pure-scouting approach. even billy beane would acknowledge that --- he played the game, after all, and he knows that the game is played by real people and not by strat-o-matic cards. but the stats do have meaning, if you know how to use them and you use them in balance.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

stats
i think some of over-reliance on stats by fans stems from the fact that stats are all that fans have access to.  i think there is a happy medium between the two.  you can use some stats to reveal things that scouting might not show.  you can use scouting to reveal things that stats might not show.  however, the average fan doesnt have access to those scouting tools.  they dont travel to 100+ games a year and sit in the stands with a gun.  they dont have reports from teams of scouts at every level.  all they have are stats and a handful of scouting nuggets tossed out at baseball america or some other publication.  when pondering a question such as should you trade player A for player B, the only tool at their disposal is a spreadsheet.

by dmb60614 on Jan 15, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't
even have cable - one game a week on fox

by cdb on Jan 15, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

understood
Larry...And heck, Im a stat guy--even more than an "observation, gut" guy. But I think/hope you would agree that many of the stat guys come off as rather standoffish, arrogant, and condecending.

It gets frustrating at times. They drop ISO, VORP, UZR, etc. and if people dont "get it" then obviously they are uneducated dumbasses. Im not saying you are this way---its just a general feel I get from the sabermetric community...like they are the only ones that "get it" and the rest of us aren't quite as enlightened. Because many of them couldn't play the game they are involved in another way.

It gets frustrating. It's nice to have a healthy balance where BOTH groups respect each other and what they briing--right now, Im not sure that's the case and both groups are to blame.

It's like guys who drop degrees or Ivy School references all the time. That gets played out. Just because he's a 30-something cat from Yale doesn't mean much to me.

Sorry to rant--just my thoughts on the issue. Do I think Tony could be more open to new things? Yes. But I think he actually puts more of it to use than people give him credit for.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you make fair points
i don't disagree --- sometimes the stats guys just want to prove that they're the smartest guy in the room (or on the board), and they use the stats as a club to beat others about the head instead of using them instructively.

i would argue that the disrespect goes both ways --- there is definitely a crowd that says "you never played the game, so you don't know shit" --- but i agree that in an ideal world, both groups would learn from one another.

i think jeff luhnow pretty well embodies that point of balance you're describing. obviously he values stats and trusts them, but from various sources i know that he does not discount a scout's "gut feeling" in the cards' draft war room --- on the contrary, he trusts that a lot, which helps explain why they drafted kozma and (to a lesser extent) rasmus, as well as later-round gems such as jaime garcia and tyler henley. every time i've exchanged e-mail with him, he goes to great lengths to address players on a qualitiative as well as quantitative basis.

by lboros on Jan 15, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

awesome
discussion and thanks. I agree about Luhnow--that's why I like him and trust him right now. He doesn't appear to flash his degrees, stats, etc. He has confidence in them and knows they work--but he knows other ways work.

Time will tell on him obviously but I really like his approach...heck, I've been impressed with Mozeliak so far as well.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just sayin'
IsoP was developed by Branch Rickey over 50 years ago.

You're speaking truth, though. Sabermetrics would probably be further along if Bill James and the like spent more effort winning his intended audience instead of attacking it.

Tom Tango seems like a class act, though. And Dave Studeman most certainly is, from the very limited contact I've had with him. Not all statsmen are condescending assholes, but too many aspire to be.

Josh, at the now-sadly-defunct Birdwatch, nailed this sentiment well in his review of 3 Nights in August:

In the case of Moneyball there was a built in audience of new school baseball fans whose self image (as baseball fans) was built around being more informed and smarter than the average fan and troglodyte baseball executive. Moneyball was a hit with this audience. When somebody writes a book that says people who think like you are brilliant and avante [sic] guard and the wave of the future, it's hard not to agree with the guy.

by liam on Jan 15, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Three months ago
I couldn't even spell statistician...now I are one.

 

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fielding percentage....
and watching?  I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but using fielding percentage alone would tell you that David Eckstein (.979) is a better fielder than Osbourne Earl Smith (.978).  

by jdub176 on Jan 15, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oops
It's "Osborne."  Should have just called him Ozzie...

by jdub176 on Jan 15, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here is what I said
  1. Watching-  the best method of all
  2. Fielding %-  tells a lot just because you can tell if the guy can at least catch and throw the ball consistently.
I of course could watch both and tell you Ozzie is a better fielder.  In a limited time obviously we can't watch each player in the league play 150 games a year.  But watching is the best way to tell what type of fielder you have.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

watching fielding in particular
is the easiest way to lead to an incorrect assessment.  Just look at the gold glove awards.  People remember flash.  They're biased.  They see what they want to see and turn a blind eye to anything that disagrees with them.  

People like "well I believe my eyes" because that statement makes whatever babble they spout out seem irrefutable.  It makes them feel safe and unchallenged.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jan 15, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree
People who don't understand baseball mechanics can not watch players play because they have absolutely no idea what to look at that leads to the end result.  I guess maybe there are a lot of writers who have never played baseball above the little league level and have zero ability to analyze the game.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You keep using the term "watching"
as if there is only one context for it.  It's either watching players or stats.  But that's not the case at all.  When scouts "watch" players, they're generally looking for certain tools and abilities and "watch" them, in great detail, often.

Fans, on the other hand, often say "well I've seen so-and-so play defense and he's one of the best in the game." Then, when the stats say otherwise, that person says something like "stats are useless" or "overused" or "can't replace the human eye."  "I don't care what the stats say, he's great!" or whatever.

Unfortunately, when fans say that they've "seen" someone and offer some vantage point that runs contrary to what the stats say, it's based on a couple of incidents that often aren't representative of the entire body of work.  Anecdotal evidence, b/c we only really "see" part of what we say we saw or only remember portions of it, just isn't that valuable.  When scouts "see" something, it's usually incredibly worthwhile.  When fans say they "saw" something, it usually isn't.

Too often we, as fans, make snap judgements about players or their abilities based on the fact that we "saw" them a couple of times.  Stats, therefore, are usually much better than fans' anecdotal evidence.  Scouts, on the other hand, are a whole different ball of yarn.  Scouts saw big homer potential in Chris Duncan even when the stats weren't there.  Eventually, the stats were able to reflect his ability to hit homers.

I'm not questioning you, in particular, here.  Likely you see things as a former player that most fans don't see.  But, if so, you're the exception, not the rule.  Therefore, if average fan A says "I saw X" and the stats say something contrary, I'll go w/ the stats.  Scouts, however, are an entirely different story.

by chuckb on Jan 15, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw...
Travis Lee rake bombs to the upper deck in batting practice.  The best display I had ever seen.  Therefore, Travis Lee is awesome.

You were saying?

by Merry CRasmus on Jan 15, 2008 9:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For the record
..the Gold Glove awards are voted on by managers and coaches in each league, not the writers.  

by jdub176 on Jan 16, 2008 1:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fielding Percentage
...is not a good one to choose unless its used in context.  If a guy were to stand in one place and make every single play within his bubble of reach he'd have a 1.000 fielding percentage.  

I also tend to not trust my eyes when trying to actually figure out if a guy is a good fielder b/c if they make a few spectacular plays that might throw off your perspective.  Also, there are just so many things that you can't see/miss by watching (positioning and jump aren't visible unless you're watching that player the entire game and nothing else) that its just not the best way to get a total package of a guy's defensive skills.  

I'm not saying that Dewan's system, RF, UZR, OOZ, etc. are perfect systems...just that they're not useless either.

 

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's all in context
It's all in context for sure.  I think you definitely need stats this day and age, considering the size of contracts and whatnot.  You would not be acting in a smart manner if you avoid looking at those things.

However I feel if you watch a player you can pick up on things.  I don't get fooled by great plays.  I can watch a guy and tell his arm strenght, the way he travels to the ball in a controled manner, weather his hands are soft, and how his feet look.  I just was saying I don't need stats to look at that.  I will go watch a highly touted HS kid and I can tell if his IF skills project or not.  

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and sometimes
a poor fielder will make a routine play look spectacular by diving etc while a great fielder would have handled it effortlessly and not looked nearly as impressive doing it.  

For fielding especially, where at most you'll see a player make 4-5 plays a game, the eyes are a terrible evaluation tool.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 15, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"Eyes are a terrible evaluation tool"
Maybe two eyes just give an insufficient sample. (I'm sure you know about that project, just thought it relevant.)

by liam on Jan 15, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And this,
is exactly what IC and LB were talking about. This attitude that eyes are a "terrible evaluation tool" and are not as good as stats. Eyes are incomplete, sure, but so are stats.  Both need the other to truly evaluate a player's ability.

by Jhusk on Jan 15, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be more accurate to say that eyes are
very good evaluation tools, but unfortunately they are connected to human brains, which do not always process information objectively.  Our brains tend to overvalue spectacular plays (and horrible plays, for that matter), giving them too much weight in our consideration of a fielder's ability. Human brains are also very selective about what they remember, and are strongly influenced by emotion. Read any of the literature about perception, memory, etc. and you will see that there are a scary number of ways in which we can delude ourselves without realizing it.  If you just like to sit in the stands and watch guys play baseball, you could argue that stats mean little or nothing.  If you're in charge of a $100 million budget, however, you better not just rely on yer lyin' eyes.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 15, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mdredbirdfreak
your comments were so right on that I read it twice. Wish I could express my thoughts that well.

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To Those Who Vote For Gold Gloves
"Please keep relying solely on your eyes.  Thank you"

-Derrek Lee

by flynn on Jan 15, 2008 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoever
Who cares?  I could care less about D Lee wining a gold glove.  Are you worried because Albert did not win the gold glove.  

I am a Cardinal fan who could care less about the perception of my team award wise.  It does not make me more money, or really change my life one bit.  I guess I am just a lot different than others who have some sort of heart attack if Jadi or Albert lose out on some award that is has zero affect on a fans life.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

isn't that part of being a fan?
those heart attacks, i mean.

by baw on Jan 16, 2008 12:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh
You don't think awards have ramifications beyond the winners having to rearrange their mantles?  

by jdub176 on Jan 16, 2008 2:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just an observation
Every defensive metric says something different about Glaus. One says he'll be fine, one says he'll be horrible, one says he'll be near Rolen etc, etc. Personally you need to use everything, including intangibles like "your eyes" to make well-informed decisions. I think Dave Duncan does a good job of translating statistics to on-field performance. He can show a pitcher when he throws a strike in a certain location, the most likely outcome. Then it's just a matter of getting the pitcher to listen!
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jan 15, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as discussed yesterday
at "the mockingbird" and elsewhere (BTF thread I don't feel like searching for), the various defensive metrics in use are based off of two different sets of data.  Both sets of data come from people who sit in the stands and watch players, making little marks on pieces of paper to show what balls should have been fielded etc, and those people, who get paid to watch baseball all day long, had completely different assessments of Troy Glaus.  

In this case, it's not the fielding stats that are "bad", it's the eyes of one (or both) of the guys in the stands in Toronto...

This discussion does illustrate one point that hasn't been made about fielding stats- we can't trust them 100% because they are meta-stats.  They aren't like the Chadwick Batting Average which is based off of something concrete (hits per at bat).  With the exception of fpct, which should be dismissed (and is still subject to the whims of the official scorer for defining "errors"), fielding skill goes through a filter based on someone's opinions, biases, and event recording skill with the accompanying opportunities for human error even before the stat programs do their number crunching.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 15, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Human Element
That's kind of my point. I am not saying stats are right or observing is right. A blend of them is essential when you are playing a human game. A player who is pissed off in a certain game (due to whatever reason) will effect his outcome whether positive or negative. (He may swing a little harder.) Stats to me, give the impression of what the player will do over the long haul. He may deviate +/- a few points off of whatever you are measuring, but you know that the outcome over the season will be pretty close. The manager however needs to be able to recognize certain nuances in the human element to maximize opportunity. An example could be a pitchers mechanics are a little off. A manager would want to correct that. A stat isn't going to say he's pitching 2 inches over from where he usually throws off the rubber. (Or whatever) Stats can predict pretty close to what they will do over the season and the manager needs to make sure that the player is on the positive side of the prediction.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jan 15, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MGL
MGL seems like an arrogant ass, I wouldn't take what he says as 100% trut.  Heck someone that arrogant can't get along with someone as arrogant as TLR.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who
is MGL? Should I know this guy?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mitchel Lichtman
who developed Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR) and worked for the Cardinals for several years, although not currently.  Co-authored "The Book" with Tom Tango and Andrew Dolphin.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok cool
I haven't heard of him--but I'm sure he hasn't heard of me either :) I can't speak of his levels of arrogantness or lackthereof.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

statement
My statement was based off the link AZ provided.  His responses came acorss poorly.  Maybe I should meet the guy before making the comment I did.  I just felt he had some responses that made him seem like an ass.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I read alot (if not all) of the comments
he makes over on the blog he and tango run and he can come across as a bit gruff and abrasive in his phrasing. He readily admits when he isn't the expert on things so I don't know that I'd call him arrogant but he can be very blunt in his responses, questions and criticisms on the blog. (Obviously, I know nothing of what he is like in person but I have a great deal of respect for him as a statistical analyst.)

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True
Seems like a very smart person.  I probably too the blunt response's I saw the wrong way.  It's a blog so he has to be somewhat short.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MGL is of the
opinion that he doesn't care how someone says something. All he's concerned about is the substance of the comment, and he expects everyone to be the same way. I think that's admirable, however it's not how the real world operates. He'd probably kill more flies with honey, but there's some truth in there.

by plh903 on Jan 15, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also I think
that people try and back up their perceptions of the game, with whatever their preformed opinions are. I went to college on a baseball scholarship, played the game for a long time or whatever. But, I also didn't give a rat's ass who was hitting behind me, and my teammates and considered team chemistry and the like to be nonsensical for a baseball team.

I was playing with different guys every week and didn't care. Field your position and wait for a pitch to knock the shit out of.

I'm probably guilty of embracing objective measures because they back up so many things that I already felt where intuitive. Giving up outs was silly.. I could go on.

I think it can work both ways, and most of us are probably searching on some level for something to tell us that our observations are correct.

by plh903 on Jan 15, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

true
I also liked your point about who hit behind you, team chemistry, etc. It's stuff for fans, media, etc. to talk about because its something we CANT pinpoint--its open for discussion. That's why so much time is spent talking about intangibles like "leadership", "chemistry", "hustle", "toughness", etc.

When a guy has a .450 OBP he has a .450 OBP. What is there to discuss there?

In the end I have found that intangibles don't mean a ton to the players playing the game. Or I guess, leaders aren't chosen, etc. They emerge. Chemistry is either there or it isn't. That type of thing.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 15, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pet peeve of mine...
it's could NOT give a shit less...

Very common mistake, but you basically are saying the opposite of what you mean.  

As for the quote...I'm not surprised.  Tony is as arrogant as anyone I've heard of, and I'm sure he thinks he knows more than any stathead out there.

by cardzfanbub on Jan 15, 2008 10:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh,
when its said in a sarcastic tone, which is how most people say it (and how I read it), then it is correct.

by JeffD on Jan 15, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh
Yeah I see what you're saying...Its odd that we're having a mini-discussion on a colloquial, somewhat crude phrase like "I couldn't give a shit less" vs. "I could give a shit less."

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What stats don't measure...
Is how a hitter's approach changes for the situation he is in at the plate.  There's some extensive analysis in this in TLR's section of George Will's excellenct book "Men at Work".  It's a bit dated, but an absolutely essential look at how great players and managers approach the game -- if you haven't read this I strongly recommend it.

In LaRussa's section he talks about situational hitting in terms of men on base and pitch count.  The book states that the A's big bats at the time, McGwire and Canseco, were extremely good situation hitters when behind in the count because they stressed hitting behind runners to move them up to the next base, and while trying to push the ball to the right side they had a high success of base hits between 1st and 2nd base.  When they weren't successful they had moved the runner up a base and closer to scoring.  While statistics can measure some of this, they really only deal with the result (i.e. making an out), rather than what the play accomplished.  I think that this is what TLR's trying to say in the quote that lboros is talking about.  Statistics can only tell you so much, watching a player's approach to the game can give a pair of trained eyes a really good approximation of that player's talents.

Don't get me wrong, I think sabermetrics are fabulous tools that should be used, and I'm a total stathead myself which is why I'm such a fan of baseball in particular compared to other sports.  However, after looking at Colby Rasmus' stats and then seeing him in person for an entire series, I left feeling much more impressed with his approach at the plate than what I would get from stats alone.  He seems to have a plan with what he wants to accomplish when he gets to the plate -- stats can't measure that directly.  They can measure what he does with those at-bats.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 15, 2008 10:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fourstick
I have read the book "Men at Work" and yes it is a great read.

Your post was very well written.  I have to agree on all of your points.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 15, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was good, fourstick,
you do good work sometimes.

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks rigdsee...
I try...lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 15, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very well said.
In addition, stats don't show the effect a player has on other players and vice versa. For example, do we know how much Eckstein was helped by having Rolen at third? Or how much Duncan was helped by hitting in front of AP? Yes, we can make mathematical calculations - but that takes away the confidence and "personal" effects.
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 15, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On the play you mentioned
doesn't WPA measure "what the play accomplished?"  If the likelihood of a team winning went up as a result of the grounder to 2nd (or whatever), it will be reflected in WPA.  If they're now less likely to win, that will also.

by chuckb on Jan 15, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As the dust settles with Rolen's departure
it nice to see some of the elements of failed trades.  Not surprising to hear now what the Dodgers wanted.

I must have missed something with the Indians though.  Nice take on the deal from belleville: http://bellevillenewsdemocrat.typepad.com/viewfromthecheapseats/2008/01/three-cheers-fo.html

- The Cleveland Press said the Indians recently talked to the Cardinals about a swap of shortstop Jhonny Peralta and pitcher Cliff Lee in a trade that would have included Rolen. The Tribe was said also to be interested in Anthony Reyes as part of that deal.  

That could've been sweet.  I'll be happy with Troy.  Good job Mo.

by Birds on the Bat on Jan 15, 2008 10:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually...
The Angels deal intrigues me a lot more because Figgins solves a lot of problems (utility in the infield, leadoff hitter).  

I think Lee is another Mike Maroth -- highly touted, but doesn't produce.  Peralta is a good offensive talent but absolutely atrocious with the glove, not sure that he really fits with the Cardinal infield.  My guess is that he would have been moved to third to replace Rolen, and Glaus gives us more production at that spot than Peralta would have.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 15, 2008 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And I would have preferred. . .
the Brewers trade. Hall and Capuano for Rolen? That would have been the steal of the century.

Easy to see why the Brew Crew would turn that one down, although Rolen at the hot corner and Cameron in CF would have upgraded that team's defense by what, 2-3 wins? Maybe more.

Methinks the NL Central is going to be better this year, which doesn't bode well for the Birds.

by South Side Cards Fan on Jan 15, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nix on the Brewers deal......
I am SO happy to know Scott Rolen doesnt have to come back to Busch x-times per year.
If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Jan 16, 2008 6:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and he'll likely never
play in Philadelphia again, either, which should be a bonus for him.
the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 16, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i remember
that i suggested the rolen for piere and laroche trade here.

by samael88 on Jan 15, 2008 10:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

If we had a feather...
I suggested last August although via different channels that a pre-PEDS Glaus would be a Cardinal. Oh the hell well.... anyway Pierre coming here would fly in the face of all things good up to date for Moz and no one ever comments on Laroches multitude of injuries at an early age.
If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Jan 16, 2008 8:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan Pierre
Ugh!  I just checked Cot for the details on that...I'd forgotten how bad it is...four more horrible years...it almost makes Rolen's deal look like a bargain.

The fun thing about the Cot site for me is to check out the incentives on some of these contracts...Gary Bennett's, for example, when he was on the Cards...award bonuses of $50,000 for Gold Glove, Silver Slugger or WS MVP...kind of hard to think of those things in the same sentence as Gary Bennett!

by tbell61 on Jan 15, 2008 10:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Juan Pierre
I'd pay Andy Laroche $10 M over the next 3 years to play 3B rather than pay Troy Glaus $11 over the next 2.

I'd have done the deal.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 11:34 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wait
Troy Glaus is playing for us for $11? Shit man, that was a hell of a deal. Now we can go after Santana, right?
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country

by Mr Redbird on Jan 15, 2008 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In fact, if the Dodgers were offering that
Mo was extremely shortsighted on not accepting it.

We would have had Laroche arbitration eligible until 2013.

Juan Pierre = 36.5 M
08:$8M
09:$10M
10:$10M
11:$8.5M

Troy Glaus = $24 M
08:$12.75M
09:$11.25M

Scott Rolen = $36 M
08:$12M
09:$12M
10:$12M

The Cardinals could have, in turn, eaten over half of Pierre's contract and flipped him to a team that needs a CF and still come out ahead in the deal.

Grrr.  This makes me angry.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pierre has limited...
no trade protection and it's not likely anyone would take any part of his salary, imo.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Jan 15, 2008 11:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
Plus, despite Pierre's limited bat production, having him on the basepath's would've been nice. I would've much rather have taken Pierre and Laroche than Glaus. Laroche's lack of pricey contract more than makes up for Pierre's too pricey one.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 15, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pierre's contract...
is actually $36.5 million over the next four years.

Paying $40 million for LaRoche would defeat the purpose of going young. You get all the downside risk that he won't pan out and none of the savings. He posted a 677 ops in a quarter season last year and ZiPs has him as a below average hitter for '08.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Jan 15, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1
Agreed.

Glaus, when healthy, is a proven commodity and you know what you're getting numbers wise.  It does help the Cards get younger because the deal is a year less, about the time the two minor league third basemen will be ready to make the jump.  Pierre's contract would make him nearly untradeable, the Dodgers are dealing with this now, and he'd make the outfield defense go from half bad to atrocious.  He'd have to play centerfield with Duncan (terrible D) in left and Ankiel (still learning the OF) in right.  I don't see how this makes that trade better than the one for Glaus which leaves the Cardinals a lot of money to spend in the 2009/2010 offseason.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 15, 2008 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would it defeat the purpose of going young?
Is the purpose of going young to save money or to get a better player?

LaRoche would be under team control until 2013.  Even if you couldn't get rid of Juan Pierre (and I think some team would take him for $5 M a year, you'd be paying $40 M (plus 2 years of arbitration), so roughly $42 M over 5 years for Andy LaRoche.  You'd be paying $8.5 M for your 3rd basemen for 2008-2013 annually.  If he is ask good as I and everyone else think he is, he is worth it.

And it isn't like Juan Pierre is completely devoid of value.  He stole 60+ bases last year with and OBP north of .330.  He could bat 9th in LaRussa's dream lineup of the pitcher batting 8th.

I completely agree that Juan Pierre isn't worth $36.5 M.  Without question.  However, I'm not sure that Andy LaRoche and Juan Pierre combined aren't.  And really, we'd be getting our 3rd basemen of the future and a decent speed guy for .5 M more than we owed Scott Rolen.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I'm working...
off the assumption that Pierre would be worthless or worse (since he might take at bats away from Ankiel or Ludwick) and that there's a decent chance LaRoche won't pan out. I mean, if Sean Burroughs can suck as bad as he did, no supposedly hard-hitting 3rd base candidate is a sure thing.

Also, you have to add in what LaRoche would earn if he did fulfill his potential. Glaus made about $23 million his first six years and Rolen made about $19 million. So if you factor in inflation, LaRoche might make around $25 million.  Add that to the $36.5 we'd pay for Pierre and you're looking at $61.5 million. The alternative is $22 million for Glaus, a guy who will likely outperform LaRoche over the next two years. That seems better to me.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Jan 15, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and then 4Y/48M
to Glaus or someone else to fill 3B through 2013, unless one of our kids is going to be ready in 2010.
the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 15, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Juan Pierre
would be a liability in the outfield he less than average in MHO and has no arm at all...not much better than Johnny Damon. I would sure hate to watch 3 or 4 years of Juan Pierre.

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pierre/Laroche
To me the biggest downside of this deal is that you give Tony the chance to play Juan Pierre every day. Sort of like leaving a plateful of cookies in front of my 3-year old, if he eats 1 or 2 that's ok but you know he won't be able to resist eating the whole plate. Not only would Tony probably start Pierre every day, he would have him bat leadoff.

by mikedallas23 on Jan 15, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How come
No one ever mention Laroches partially torn right labrum, fully torn surgically repaired left labrum and broken leg. Or the fact thats he's 25 years old, the VEB kiss of death age for other young prospects.

I guess his injuries and the apparent chronic nature of them arent a factor as of yet, because...? He's cheap? Contract under control?

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Jan 16, 2008 6:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lb-was the tourney the housekeeping note
or is something else upcoming? any developments to the site that we've been hearing about?
I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 15, 2008 12:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What I love about this site:
I learn something nearly every day, and not always about baseball.  I didn't know about "bated breath" until I read your link.  Even though I don't trust Wikipedia completely, that entry made a lot of sense.  Thanks.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jan 15, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Replying to: Self,
(never a good sign). The link is NOT to Wikipedia, don't know why I thought it was.  Oh well, I still learned something new.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jan 15, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well Cardgirl,
just keep on reading with "baited breath" and you might learn something else. I'm waiting for spring training with "baited breath".

by ridgesee on Jan 15, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No offense Azru,
but that definitely wasn't the most humble entry on your part . . .
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 15, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if my sarcasm detector was
supposed to go off or not because there was nothing snide in my comment.  Erik asked about some long-anticipated updates, I gave a link, and said that I was waiting for them as well.

On a list of my entries, this wouldn't even break the top 100 for 'lack of humility'. I can be a jackass at times but this really wasn't one of them.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 9:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was kind of joking,
so don't get too offended, but I was referring to that you linked to the definition of a phrase you used.

It kinda rang to me as "I know this phrase, but you all wouldn't, so here, let me define it for you." Which would make sense if it was like a quote from a movie or something, but "baded breath" is kind of a common / cleverly-used phrase, so instead it appeared arrogantish.

But no hard feelings -- just struck me the wrong way. You probably meant nothing by it.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 16, 2008 1:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey,
someone followed the link and posted to say how much she appreciated it.  I say az knows his audience, first rule of rhetoric.  Congrats and call it a day.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Jan 16, 2008 8:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sadly
I had to look it up myself.  I hate misspelling words and I didn't know if I was using the right word.  I had it down as "baited" first.  When I take the time to look something like that up, that's why it gets linked

:o)

by azruavatar on Jan 16, 2008 9:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hate
misspelling words as well, which is why I appreciated the link to the bated breath entry.  Oh, BTW, you misspelled February in your original post.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jan 16, 2008 9:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Humility be damned!
This sort of phenomenon—where a word or phrase is (usually learned from speech and subsequently) re-interpreted when used in writing to use different, phonetically similar words—have become known as eggcorns in the past half-decade and are much celebrated by certain linguists.

There's even a database collecting attested eggcorns, which includes the bated/baited breath eggcorn. Most of the re-interpretations are perfectly understandable, some are delightful.

I like this one quite a bit, too.

by liam on Jan 16, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

haha,
like I said, no hard feelings.

Just giving you a hard time.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 16, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This scares me
"From our perspective, he looked real good," Cardinals team physician Dr. George Paletta said. "I don't expect anything should get in the way of him getting ready for opening day."

Talking about Glaus for foxsports.com

by gonzostl on Jan 15, 2008 12:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

no kidding
I'm currently banging my head against the desk as I type this...does that count as "knocking on wood"?
"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 15, 2008 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not again
For all of the missed diagnoses that Paletta gives, he's probably have dozens that we never even hear about.  Imagine it's about the same with many doctors.

by saladdays on Jan 15, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Confusing
I meant that he probably has correct diagnoses for many more than he's had wrong.  We just hear about the ones that are wrong the most.

by saladdays on Jan 15, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't speak for other teams
But the Cardinals have a history of mismanaging injuries under this regime.
   -Jimmy last offseason (jimmy wanted the toe fixed right after the season, but the medical staff wanted him to wait.)
   -Scott Rolen - didn't trust the cardinals medical staff so much he went and got another doctor (the Red's team doctor)to do his second surgury.
   -Mark Mulder - 2004 anyone with two eyes could see his velocity was down.  Then last year when it was obcious he still couldn't hit the correct arm slot and they still kept saying he was fine and sending him out there, then low and behold he has to have a clean-up.
   -Chris Carpenter - Instead of opting to get Tommy-John right away they wait and he ends up needing it anyway.

Those are just off of the top of my head.

I think the biggest problem is that the team doctor is not nessesarily the best doctor rather the one whom pays the club to be the team doctor.  The are better doctors on St. Louis (Dr. Rick Lehman for one) they just don't want to pay a team so they can be the "official doctor".

by gonzostl on Jan 15, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But see
Those are the well known cases we know about.  There's many other things that he must do that we don't hear about very much because there are no complications, etc.  For example, no one talks about Carp's first surgery (other than the fact that it was done) because everything positive came out of it.

We also don't know many details about said injuries and why decisions were/weren't made.

by saladdays on Jan 15, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That is a valis point
However it does not make me feel any better about the pattern I see.

by gonzostl on Jan 15, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Valid point
I have no idea what valis means.....

by gonzostl on Jan 15, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At your service...
Valis
"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it."

by cardsrul on Jan 15, 2008 8:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Checked your link
and I'm even more confused what a valis point is.

by That's a Winner on Jan 16, 2008 8:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Payroll Question
Who pays Dr. Palettas malpractice insurance? Him or the Cards? I bet Rolen knows.

by That's a Winner on Jan 15, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

all of the medical professionals
on the internet really crack me up.

by jeff abs on Jan 15, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a doctor in real life
but I play one on the internet.

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm so much cooler...
online.
Thanks for the highlight moments 15 and 27!!!

by cardzfanbub on Jan 15, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tourney Note
To submit your entries, e-mail me your selections.  There is an e-mail link on the page provided by lb in the main post.

by Cardinal70 on Jan 15, 2008 12:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Troy Glaus wanted to play in St. Louis?
According to Buster Olney, Troy said that he has wanted to play in St. Louis for years.  

Now, I know that he and Edmonds are best friends (sucks for you now, Jimmy) but other than that...why exactly do all these Angels want to play in St. Louis?

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 15, 2008 12:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Glaus's Mother
Glaus's Mother lives about 2 hrs away if i remember correctly, which may have something to do with it.

by FunkeeC on Jan 15, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Glaus's mother has somethign to do with...
....all the ex-Angels wanting to play here, or just Troy?

by siddfynch on Jan 15, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I responded to the example he stated....
You can also guess that having a competitive team that offers said player a contract that said player considers fair as reasons why a player comes to play for the cards.

by FunkeeC on Jan 15, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice info re: Glaus from his agent
Buster Olney had this to say from Glaus's agent:

"St. Louis is a place Troy has dreamed of playing for ever since he was a kid. At 6 years old, he actually told his mother that some day he would be play third base for the St. Louis Cardinals. And they lived in Southern California. In 2001 (I believe) he went to a playoff game there as a guest of Jim Edmonds. He got to see first-hand the atmosphere there, the fans, etc. After the game, he was in the clubhouse, and knew this was a place and an atmosphere he would love. When he became a free agent in 2004 and we began to discuss the most desirable clubs, the Cardinals already had an All-Star third baseman, so there was no fit. However, had there been a need, St. Louis would have been near or at the top of Troy's wish list. He loves the tradition there (he and I looked over the retired numbers just last night, and he told me they were third in history in retired numbers, to LA and the Yankees), he loves the atmosphere, the commitment to winning, and he is excited to be a part of it.

"Therefore, when this opportunity presented itself, the decision was very easy. And the decision to exercise his player option to guarantee that he would be there for at least two years was also easy. In a matter of a few hours, both those decisions were made."

by OCCardsFan on Jan 15, 2008 1:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

All player's agents have them dream of playing
where ever they get traded to.  He could get traded to the Iraqi natioal team and his agent would still say he always wanted to play there.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 15, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps...
but why would he say it in the much detail?  Saying stuff like the exact age when he said those things about playing for the Cards (age six) is adding more detail than you would expect if it wasn't true.

by saladdays on Jan 15, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like hearing
that other players appreciate the Cardinals' tradition and that it makes it an attractive destination...maybe his agent is feeding us a line of shit, but it's something to truly appreciate about this team we love...the legendary players, the retired numbers, the championships, the supportive fan base, even the traditional uniform design...too many players have mentioned this for me to believe it means nothing, even to the well compensated athletes of today.

by tbell61 on Jan 15, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course...
it will really mean a lot if his injury crops back up and he gets run out of town like Rolen. (Or Edmonds. Or any of a long number of players).

The Cardinals tradition, at least lately, is stabbing a player in the back as he is being kicked out the door...

by DiscoJer on Jan 15, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would just like...
...for the record to reflect that I was tied for the lead in the last tournament when it was scuttled.

by birdjam on Jan 15, 2008 1:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LaRoche
Yeah, that LaRoche deal was sure wishful thinking.  No way we give up a future slugging third baseman like LaRoche for Rolen.  Even if the Cards ate all the Juan Pierre contract, I'd be pissed.  With Colletti as GM you never know, so it was smart to give it a try from your end.   vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 15, 2008 4:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Making my Round 1 picks
and looking at the b-ref page for the 1887 squad.  128 Ks in 390 innings. . . I'm not even sure how to interpret those numbers.  It was a different game back then.

(I'm riding 2004 & 2005 until they bust.)

by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 4:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

it's amazing
how different it was- according to the baseball almanac it took 4 "called strikes" to get a K (is that the same as 4 swing-and-misses?), and home plate was only 12 inches wide; 5 balls was a walk, and pitchers threw from 50 feet.  Pitchers couldn't even throw overhand until 1883...

I can't figure out from that link if they used a pitching mound yet or not.

the bums will always lose...

by SleepyCA on Jan 15, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No mound
There was a pitching box instead.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jan 15, 2008 8:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gambling...
are you going to post odds on each team to win it all?
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 15, 2008 6:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

War Birds
Isn't it accepted that WWII teams (and players) were the most overrated in baseball history? That shouldn't even be a question. Bob Feller once told me he hated "those pansies who didn't fight almost as much as I hated the Japs.'' Whatever. For our purposes, since you can seed these teams anyway you like, I'd rather see a subjective seeding instead of going by win pct. Hell, I'd take the '68 Cards over all the War Birds, who I would rate somewhere near the middle, at best. Just my opinion. (and Feller's).

by ErnieBroglio on Jan 16, 2008 4:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

'68 Cards 3, '67 Cards 1
Just for kicks, I just played the Sim between my two favorite teams of all-time. Gibby vs. Carlton. The irony is the 68 team got to Ron Willis in the ninth to score two runs and break up a 1-1 pitchers' duel. The game ended with Maxville grounding out to Maxville.

by ErnieBroglio on Jan 16, 2008 5:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar_small
How to EASILY make tables for Fanposts
1753738656_110919ebe9_o_small
2010 Hot Stove Post #1: CHONE hitter projections

Recent FanPosts

Arch_small
Number 15
Small
Some thoughts on Holliday (and potential replacements)
Small
Ok let me try this again...
Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Kid-a-bear_small the red baron