Man of Troy
Well, it appears as though the Rolen for Glaus swap is going to happen. I've never been a huge Troy Glaus fan, but I can't shake the impression that this trade favors the Cards. We don't know all the details yet but, at first glance, it appears that the Cards got the better end of this one.
For the last 3 seasons, Glaus has been the superior player in almost every conceivable way. Rolen is still the superior defender, but Glaus' offense has been vastly superior to Rolen's each of the last 3 seasons - enough so to offset the relative deficit in Glaus' defense. Glaus is 16 months younger than Rolen, and his contract expires sooner than Rolen's does. There is the issue w/ Glaus' plantar fascitis but Rolen, as we are all too aware, has issues w/ both shoulders.
In LB's comments yesterday , he used the two players' OPS over the last 3 seasons to make the case that Glaus is the superior offensive player (or at least has been). Here are their other 2007 numbers:
| VORP | EqA | WS | WPA | RC/27 | WARP1 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rolen | 4.1 | .257 | 11 | -0.73 | 4.42 | 4.1 |
| Glaus | 20.5 | .281 | 14 | 0.97 | 6.38 | 4.0 |
The only numbers that are close, and in Rolen's favor, is WARP1 which is largely dependent on BP's analysis of the two players' defense. Rolen's defense keeps the comparison close and, perhaps, is the reason the Cards were able to get this trade done. By every offensive measure, the two players weren't even close in 2007.
How about over the last 3 years?
| VORP | EqA | WS | WPA | RC/27 | WARP1 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rolen | 40.1 | .266 | 38 | 0.17 | 5.24 | 14.7 |
| Glaus | 87.3 | .285 | 63 | 2.17 | 6.42 | 15.2 |
It should be pointed out that VORP, WS, WPA, and WARP1 are sums of the 3 years' totals. EqA and RC/27, because they are rate statistics, are unweighted averages. Again, Rolen's defense enables him to keep the comparison close according to WARP1, but you should notice that THT's Win Shares, which also incorporates defense, isn't. The two sources have different means of comparing defense and incorporating its value into a player's overall value. Offensively, over the last 3 years, Glaus has been by far the superior player.
What about their projections for next year? The ZIPS, CHONE, and Bill James projections are out but PECOTA isn't so I'm going to use its projections for 2008 prior to last season. You'll notice that its projection can't take into account both players' injuries in '07 so I would expect this year's PECOTA projection to be less sanguine than these are.
Here are the two players' OPS's from the 4 sets of projections:
| ZIPS | CHONE | James | PECOTA | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rolen | .728 | .802 | .842 | .857 |
| Glaus | .819 | .854 | .851 | .899 |
All 4 sets of projections believe Glaus will have the better '08 as well. In fact, only the James projections are within 40 pts. of OPS. So, Glaus was better in '07. He was better from '05-'07 and 4 sets of projections anticipate he'll be better in '08. It's true that he's played in more hitter-friendly ballparks than Rolen has but he's also played in a tougher pitching league. He's also been facing the Red Sox and Yankees' pitching 30 times per year...er, I mean, the Red Sox pitching 15 times per year. It's difficult for me to conclude, therefore, that Glaus ISN'T the better player right now.
How about defense? Here are `07's numbers:
| FRAA | rate | PMR ratio | RZR | +/- | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rolen | 16 | 115 | 102.92 | .742 | +15 |
| Glaus | 3 | 103 | 102.78 | .706 | +9 |
FYI, the "Rate" stat used above comes from the Davenport Translations at BP. The +/- is courtesy of the Fielding Bible. From this, we should get that Rolen is better defensively but it's really pretty close. BP has him a good bit above Glaus but PMR, THT, and the Fielding Bible all have them being pretty comparable and PMR shows barely any difference at all. So, is Rolen better defensively? Unquestionably. But he's not that much better - certainly not enough to offset the difference, right now, in the two players' offense.
Add all this up, the fact that Glaus is slightly younger, and the fact that his contract will be on the books for at least 1 year less than Rolen's and it's pretty clear to me that, right now, Glaus is the better player. He's gonna strike out more than Rolen, to be sure. At some point people will complain about a K w/ a runner on 3rd and 1 out in a game we lose to Pittsburgh 3-2. But he is better overall than Rolen is right now.
Rolen is owed $36 M over the next 3 years. Glaus is owed $12.75 M in '08 and he has a player option for '09 at $11.25 M. The word is that the Cards will have to send some dough to the Jays to complete the deal. Considering the relative players' values and the fact that Rolen is owed at least an extra year and $12 M, that's hardly surprising. Glaus' contract is really a pretty good one for the Cards. Yes, he's expensive this year but, if he plays well, he'll likely opt out of the '09 contract and become a free agent. The Cards will then be out from under that contract. If he decides to pick up his player option, the Cards still save a year and $12 M (or a little less based on the amount that the Cards send north).
Will Glaus have to be enticed to waive his no-trade clause? Goold says that the Cards would have to pick up the option in order to make the trade happen. Unless I'm wrong that the option is Glaus', this comment makes no sense. Perhaps he means that the Cards would guarantee the 2nd year? That would seem to reduce, not increase, the value of the contract as Glaus can now opt out if he wants or, if he doesn't, force the Cards to pay the money anyway. Maybe he would want to add a million or two to the '09 player option in order to do the deal. It ought to be worth it to him to agree to the deal just to get off the astroturf and come to the weaker league 1 year before being able to become a free agent once again.
Finally, yesterday LB wrote that this trade adds "another leg for the larussa-runs-the-club theory to stand on" and some took umbrage with that quote in the thread. I tend to agree w/ LB that this is LaRussa's type of trade. Though it does help the club in the long run, as I've pointed out it also helps the club in the short run. What's wrong w/ that? Nothing, but...
Make no mistake about it, Mo could have traded Rolen long ago and gotten less (much less) than Glaus while also dumping most, if not all, of the remaining contract on the other team. In other words, he could've dumped Rolen and his contract on somebody else if he'd been willing to take little or nothing in return. He may have even been able to get a decent or better prospect in return. The benefit of that endeavor would have been that it would've saved the team at least $24 M. It would've opened up an additional $11.25 M in '09 that the team could've spent on something else. It would've opened a hole at 3B for Craig or Freese in '09 if either of them are ready. It's likely, instead, that Glaus will be playing 3B for the Cards in '09.
Trading Rolen for Glaus, as opposed to trading him for a prospect, or for a fungo bat to be named later, will gain the team 4-5 wins this year in all likelihood. Are we now a contender? No, b/c it's a negligible gain this year over Rolen and we weren't a contender w/ Rolen. Still, LaRussa would've never allowed Rolen to be traded for a prospect. He clearly insisted on getting back a player who can help the team this year. Which players have been mentioned in Rolen rumors beside Glaus? It's always been established major league players, never prospects (except in blogs or message boards). So I echo LB's sentiment from yesterday that he'd rather have Andy LaRoche.
Still, all in all, this is a good trade for the Cards. It's not ideal. Some will complain about Glaus' use of PED's. Why? No one complained about re-signing Ryan Franklin! He took them when he was with the Angels, at least 4 years ago. His success in '05 and '06 w/ the Jays had nothing to do w/ `roids. Sure, it's another Angel on the roster but at least Ed Wade signed Darin Erstad. BTW, while we're commenting on the Angel-ification of the Cards' roster, take a look at the left side of the infield up in Toronto!
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No $$$ sent from STL to TOR
Saw this on espn.com:
"According to a source with knowledge of the trade, the Cardinals only signed off on the deal after Glaus agreed to exercise his $11.25 million option for 2009. St. Louis management didn't want to give up three years of Rolen for only one year of Glaus, so Glaus had to commit to the option year as part of the deal.
Both players were also required to waive no-trade clauses.
A source told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark that Toronto will be responsible for the three years and $33 million left on Rolen's contract, while St. Louis will assume the $24.5 million owed Glaus through 2009. Since no cash is involved in the trade, it appears that no approval from commissioner Bud Selig's office is required."
Wow! Another positive in the Cards' favor! I'm still holding my breath that we don't find out there are other players involved. As for how things appear right now, I'm strongly encouraged. Score points for Mozeliak!
by airhad on Jan 13, 2008 3:01 AM EST 0 recs
I like the deal more now
>>According to a source with knowledge of the trade, the Cardinals only signed off on the deal after Glaus agreed to exercise his $11.25 million option for 2009<<
Seems odd given Glaus's age, injury history and the club's avowed desire to commit to player development ... unless one runs the transaction through the LaRussa prism. 2009 happens to be the last year of TLR's contract. The TLR strategy needs three studs to go with his scrubs: Pujols-Glaus-Rasmus are the new trio. If Glaus lights up NL pitching in 2008 AND stays healthy, we'll come out ahead on the 2009 option. Either Glaus really wanted out of Toronto or the guy is not all that sure about his health.
by jjray on
Jan 13, 2008 6:18 AM EST
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Know what turf toe is?
by StanTheManFan on
Jan 13, 2008 11:07 AM EST
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Turf Toe
I believe the reason it's called 'turf toe' is because of the prevalence of the injury among players on artificial turf, due to the hard subsurface.
It also seems to be unusually difficult to recover from. Football players often miss most of a year with turf toe. Not sure why it takes so long, but it's definitely nothing to laugh at.
by the red baron on
Jan 13, 2008 12:38 PM EST
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Glaus had to commit to the deal?
by chuckb on
Jan 13, 2008 1:10 PM EST
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Upon further review, it was a shrewd move
I've thought about it some more and now see the wisdom of our bargaining position with Toronto. If Glaus gets hurt or goes into wholesale regression, he was going to exercise his option and the Cards would be on the hook regardless. If he rakes in the NL and stays healthy, he opts out. Thus, there is no risk of loss to the Cards by having the option year contractually locked in up front. They were going to be on the hook for that option under any bad scenario. It's just a win for the Cards. I'm just shocked we not only didn't send money to Toronto but also extracted a concession from Glaus. Kudos to Mozeliak on this one. Other than forcing the team to move Rolen through his feud with the player, TLR probably had nothing to do with the negotiations with Toronto.
by jjray on
Jan 13, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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Amen
by South Side Cards Fan on
Jan 13, 2008 2:00 PM EST
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Nice analysis
Oh, who am I kidding. Mo is an idiot who does whatever his bosses (and even his employees) tell him to do. (/sarcasm)
by Big Red on
Jan 13, 2008 2:02 PM EST
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The problem we may face is
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2008 3:20 AM EST 0 recs
he wouldn't dare,,,
by gdm426 on
Jan 13, 2008 3:43 AM EST
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Why
by mikedallas23 on
Jan 13, 2008 9:33 AM EST
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If you look at UZR
The three year splits are kind of silly though. This is all based on medical info that no one here presumably has access to. But the Jays do. The point is that we've traded upside for certainty and no clubhouse issues. If I'm the Cardinals I'd like to keep all the upside I can find, even if that comes with big risks.
And Hardcore, why would Rolen waive his NTC and then not report? That doesn't make any sense to me.
by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 4:14 AM EST 0 recs
i don't think of rolen as having any upside
if nothing else, the contracts make this trade a no-brainer. they're currently on the hook for the age 33 through 35 seasons of an ex-superstar. they're trading that for the age 31 and age 32 seasons of a near-peak star.
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 6:14 AM EST
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It depends on if he'll
If UZR is to be believed, or PMR from 2005 or 2006, there is a substantial difference in defense. Much more than a win. It totally depends on the metric du jour, but those, especially UZR, are the ones I trust.
Apparently the Jays' internal metrics agree (and supposedly Ricciardi is trying to build the next great defense or something), or they don't take the gamble. Their doctors will agree as well if he the deal goes through (I guess the worst case is the deal not happening now, no matter how you feel about the trade).
I'm not sure what the Cardinals metrics or doctors say about Rolen, given that I don't think that was the basis for the trade.
Who knows, it's all medical and anything on that is entirely speculative. But the Jays have doctors too, and no ulterior motives.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 9:20 AM EST
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UZR is an outlier
each of those three systems gives rolen less than a 1-win advantage with the glove; UZR gives rolen about a 2.5-win advantage. i'm not saying that UZR is wrong --- i have no basis for saying one way or the other --- but it is in the minority.
where EqA is concerned, i'll take my chances w/ glaus, who has been at .280 or above for 4 years in a row. rolen's been in the .250 range 2 of the last 3 seasons. at his age, with his health record, i don't see him returning to .300.
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 10:23 AM EST
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And PMR doesn't
Where does your +/- data come from? Dewan gives Rolen a +47 and Glaus a -25 from 2003-2005, so that would be a serious swing. Dial's ZR likes Rolen much more.
I don't see him returning there either, but if he does he's a hell of a lot better than Glaus.
What this boils down to for me is that Ricciardi isn't a clown, and the Cardinals aren't working from an objective standpoint here. Rolen has to go. This might be the best of a bad situation, but that doesn't mean I like the situation or the trade in a vacuum.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 10:51 AM EST
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Rolen kills
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 10:55 AM EST
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plus / minus data
RZR has glaus and rolen dead even for 2007, both 14 runs better than average. rolen had a better zone rating, but glaus got to 10 more out-of-zone balls. (see this spreadsheet: http://home.comcast.net/~briankaat/zonecombo2007.xls.) rolen was about 20 runs better than glaus on RZR in 2006.
there's no argument about which guy is a better fielder ---- obviously it's rolen. but there's very mixed evidence about the magnitude of rolen's advantage. the most favorable scenario has rolen at about +30 runs; a more balanced perspective would put rolen at about +15. if you think rolen's bat will be within 15 runs of glaus's bat, then the cardinals come out behind on the deal in 2008 . . . .
but even if that's true --- and i'm certainly not conceding it --- you still have to factor in the contracts. the cards are better off with glaus's shorter contract, even if the exchange costs them a win or two in 2008. they're probably not going anywhere in 2008 no matter who players 3d base, but they might be going somewhere in 2010 --- and they're more likely to do that if they don't have 35-year-old scott rolen soaking up 1/10th of the payroll.
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 11:51 AM EST
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They are only
I'd want to trade Rolen if nobody wanted him. The fact that they do (and there was supposedly an offer on the table from the Brewers -- Doug Melvin isn't an idiot either) makes me think that the situation isn't so dire, and that the Cardinals are acting on directive from the wrong person.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 12:06 PM EST
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i agree that tony's driving the action here
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 12:12 PM EST
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lboros
by beanocook on
Jan 13, 2008 12:57 PM EST
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If airhad is right
We had a chance to trade 3 years of Rolen for 1 year of Glaus, or should I say 3 years of Rolen's contract for 1 year of Glaus' and we chose 2 years of Glaus'. That's 1 more feather in the veterans-preferred cap!
by chuckb on
Jan 13, 2008 1:16 PM EST
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I don't think that means TLR
by azruavatar on
Jan 13, 2008 1:21 PM EST
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I agree with that...
by Forsch31 on
Jan 13, 2008 9:44 PM EST
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beano, you misunderstand me
i've said this over and over --- i think rolen and la russa are equally to blame for the state of their relationship, but i think la russa's comments this off-season pushed things past the point of no return and left the team in a terrible position. if this trade goes through, the team will be off the hook ---- in spite of tony's poor handling of the situation.
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 2:28 PM EST
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and rolen's on the books thru 2010
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 12:21 PM EST
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Not if they
Dewan has Rolen at +50 for 2005-2007, and +23 for 2006-2007. He has him at +16 for 2005 in the book. Something's wrong there.
Also, Glaus is +19 from 2006-2007, and terrible off the turf in 2005. Enough (-12, which is in line with his previous performance) to drop him off the 2005-2007 leaderboard.
I'll go with MGL's numbers which are consistent.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 12:33 PM EST
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Yeah...
Mo couldn't have done any better in this situation, he got 1 year shaved off a big contract. He got a younger player, much more likely to make a full recovery from surgery, and probably made a gain (even if it is marginal) to the team as it currently stands.
Nobody is disputing that a 100% Rolen, is better than a 100% Glaus. The chances of Rolen getting back there are slim to none, and this team desperately needed the offense.
This team is going to be giving major at bats to "hitters" like Molina, Izturis, Kennedy, Miles...they needed the offense.
Mo did a great job here.
by bobbyballgame1 on
Jan 13, 2008 1:10 PM EST
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Toronto disagrees
We don't "need a hitter". The team needs to either save runs or score runs. Either one is fine with me. Glaus will probably have a net positive effect, but he can't match Rolen's if he's somewhat healthy.
I don't care about the payroll flexibility. They have tons of money coming off the books, and are pissing away what they do have on crap like Izturis, Miles and Pineiro. There's over half Rolen's salary right there.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 1:29 PM EST
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I'm real glad you aren't our GM.
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on
Jan 13, 2008 1:41 PM EST
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I'm glad you
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 1:44 PM EST
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I disagree with nearly everything you said
I care about payroll flexibility. Lots, actually. Glaus is cheaper with a shorter contract and represents an offensive upgrade and only a minute downgrade from Rolen. Rolen will never return to 2004 form -- that was 4 years and two shoulder surgeries ago. Its gone; poof!
We aren't "pissing away" money on Izturis (isn't he a one year deal?) b/c he's a good fielder who can save runs -- something you are concerned about. We aren't pissing away money on Pineiro because we don't exactly have a glut of reliable starting pitching. Pineiro, although not spectacular, is reliable and will eat innings at a league average(ish) clip.
The only thing I agree with is Miles -- we are pissing money away on Miles.
by Ray Lankford on
Jan 13, 2008 3:02 PM EST
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I don't care
The Cardinals have less than $30 million committed in 2010. There is room to make a gamble on Rolen, but if you disagree that he's a good gamble, that's fine. Just don't make it sound like we need to money.
Joel Pineiro hasn't eaten innings at a league average clip since 2004. He's a replacement level player according to projections.
Cesar Izturis is a replacement player as well. Average defense, and a .220 EQA. Brendan Ryan can do better for pennies on the dollar. Even if he flops and is "as bad" who cares? No real downside.
Glad we can agree about Miles.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 3:28 PM EST
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PLH903
I see his inability to stay healty and I think it is a waste to have him around 3 more years.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 13, 2008 3:44 PM EST
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I'd trade him
However, I'm of the opinion that he comes close to Glaus when you factor in defense. That lets you take a gamble on him being a 7 win player again.
FWIW, I don't think Craig will stick at 3B (love the bat), and Freese isn't a good a prospect as, let's say, Chris Sabo. I think Chris Truby is much more likely.
I don't know, dude. I'm not a doctor. I don't like that he's being traded because of high school bullshit (though I might ask for a trade if I got trashed in the press by my manager -- and I've never said a word).
I'd say no, get what you can for him from what I know. He was probably worth his contract last year if you take UZR at face value, but I don't think he's likely to stay on the field.
With teams showing interest, I want to find the logic behind that. I see their reasoning, and trust that they are going on projections and medical data, and the Cardinals are going on he said/she said. That doesn't sit well.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 3:56 PM EST
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I'll add that
I've repeated myself a bunch of times, so I'll stop for now.
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 4:06 PM EST
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Why...
"with you about his chances being slim to none (and he doesn't have to be MV3 Rolen to be better than Glaus). You should probably let them know, I guess."
I'm glad Toronto doesn't agree with me, now they have the commitment of 3 years to Rolen and his shot shoulder.
Pujols would have likely never seen a pitch to hit all year with 8HR Rolen batting behind him.
by bobbyballgame1 on
Jan 13, 2008 10:11 PM EST
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I'm not trying
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 10:20 PM EST
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UZR is not an outlier
The only person who doesn't agree is BIS's scorer with the Blue Jays, whose data has made him look like a competent 3B in PMR and +/-, the two metrics which use BIS's PBP data rather than Stats Inc's, the past two years, where before they agreed with the consensus that he was a poor defender.
by cpebbles on
Jan 13, 2008 10:06 PM EST
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of the 4 major metrics for 2007
by lboros on
Jan 13, 2008 11:03 PM EST
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RZR
PMR and UZR are in conflict here. Supporting PMR are DTs and a couple of metrics built around the same data. Supporting UZR are his defensive reputation throughout baseball, his history as a fielder, and the rule that players' defense does not tend to improve markedly over the age of 30. I think it's pretty clear that the discrepancy in data is with BIS's scorer.
by cpebbles on
Jan 13, 2008 11:48 PM EST
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Mo is making the best of a bad situation
Two thoughts
- I've seen several comments that we are saving $12 million. I guess that is true if we expect to play without a third basemen in 2010. Aren't we really just gaining some payroll flexibility? What we've done is give ourselves a choice of playing with Freese/other rookie or spending big bucks on a free agent.
- Isn't Plantar Fascitis a common problem for those doing PEDs? Isn't this the problem McGwire struggled with in Oakland for years? If that is the case, I worry that Glaus will break down earlier in his career making the age differential moot.
by The Duke on Jan 13, 2008 8:16 AM EST 0 recs
I have to say...
by mynameistyler on
Jan 13, 2008 9:05 AM EST
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I think you're thinking of
But of course, he never took steroids.
by 26thMan on
Jan 13, 2008 10:55 AM EST
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Plantar vs patellar
Perhaps Silent Bob could weigh in.
by The Duke on
Jan 13, 2008 11:29 AM EST
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I'm not a DR.
McGwire is one possible case that is a coincidence? Which other implicated players have this problem?
Not trying to be a smart arse....just curious
by bparker on Jan 13, 2008 8:56 AM EST 0 recs
Pujol has it too...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on
Jan 13, 2008 1:42 PM EST
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See ya Scotty.....
I was OK with Glaus (whom I thought we might trade for last Aug., before the PED accusations) but now I kinda feel just got handed Gary Gaetti or Pete Guerrero again for whatever reason. Except the Rat could actually play a little third base.
More Angels.
All things being equal, Id rather have a healthy Rolen than a healthy Glaus and have a happy TLR wearing pinstripes or a retired TLR running an animal care shelter raking in donations from sympathetic ballplayers.
People who see it as all business that yields a bottom line and numbers will be fairly happy with this and the people who see it as typical fans probably wont.
by cardschinmusic on Jan 13, 2008 9:11 AM EST 0 recs
Plantar Faciais
by GOOCH24 on Jan 13, 2008 9:20 AM EST 0 recs
My brother has suffered from it as well
by chuckb on
Jan 13, 2008 1:17 PM EST
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Man...
by Forsch31 on
Jan 13, 2008 9:47 PM EST
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Question
by mikedallas23 on Jan 13, 2008 9:38 AM EST 0 recs
A blast from the past...
"In Philadelphia, Rolen also had his fair share of feuds with former manager Larry Bowa, teammates and eventually the fans. A month before his trade, a teammate called Rolen a 'cancer' in the clubhouse."
I hope John Gibbons and the Blue Jays fans enjoy their new prima donna!
by HalfMagic on Jan 13, 2008 9:41 AM EST 0 recs
Look -- these are Philadelphia sports writers
I am generally highly regarded in my job, both by my higher-ups and a strong majority (documented) of the people who work for me, but I was labeled "scum" in one fairly prominent blog by the holder of a minority opinion. Nobody earns a 100% personality approval rating if they're actually doing anything, and Rolen certainly was doing something; he plays baseball, after all. I'm not saying that Rolen was not a "cancer in the clubhouse" in Philadelphia, but I would give exactly zero credibility to this particular report.
by StanTheManFan on
Jan 13, 2008 11:19 AM EST
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That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on
Jan 13, 2008 1:43 PM EST
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Take the
by plh903 on
Jan 13, 2008 1:50 PM EST
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since when
by mattyfrommo on
Jan 13, 2008 4:01 PM EST
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Just once, ab
- post something that isn't completely obnoxious and insulting to somebody AND
- support it with some kind of facts or even theories as to what you're basing your opinion on
- " attack the opinion, not the person. a guy isn't an idiot simply because he disagrees with you. if you think flawed logic, faulty premises, and/or factual errors underlie his opinion, point those things out; try to persuade him (and the rest of us) that your view of things makes more sense. the entire community can learn a lot from that type of exchange. but we learn nothing --- and you make yourself look stupid --- when you simply taunt your adversary or call him names. flame wars will not be tolerated."
- "what is my true motive in posting? there's a difference between making a critical point and pounding your fists on the floor. if all you have to offer is the latter, do not post. "
- "can i back up my criticisms with some evidence and a line of reasoning? when scott rolen struggled early in the 2006 playoffs, we got dozens of angry rants about how rolen is a habitual choker with a longstanding history of playoff failure. those posts were factually untrue and easily disproven; they detracted from the discussion about rolen's struggles, rather than adding to it. don't post criticism that you can't back up;"
by chuckb on
Jan 13, 2008 5:31 PM EST
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Plantar Faciais
by jimmyv on Jan 13, 2008 10:14 AM EST 0 recs
Does anyone
by ridgesee on Jan 13, 2008 10:38 AM EST 0 recs
Nailed it in the 2nd to last paragraph.
by bukowski on Jan 13, 2008 10:39 AM EST 0 recs
Yes
by bobbyballgame1 on
Jan 13, 2008 1:12 PM EST
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It's 4-5 wins over trading
I obviously didn't make that clear and I apologize. It came up later in the thread as well.
by chuckb on
Jan 13, 2008 1:29 PM EST
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