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Around SBN: In Crunch Time, Spurs Don't Change Their Game

tuesday miscellany

Birdos_avatar_tiny by lboros on in St. Louis Cardinals News

my, but VEB was a snakepit over the weekend. friday night we had a disgraceful comment commending aaron miles for fouling a ball into en'cion's face. that poster has been told to take his insights elsewhere. on sunday we had somebody comparing an opinion about baseball to Holocaust denial; now there's someone with a sense of proportion. yesterday there was another tasteless joke about foul balls off the noggin, followed by a testy hours-long argument about whether or not it's ok to boo a hometown player. ah, pennant-race excitement; best time of year. throws all the little nuances of the game into high relief . . . . .

it's partly my fault that things got a bit out of hand; i was out of town and not paying much attention while all this stuff went down, didn't read through any of the threads until they were cold. and such edifying reading it was . . . . thankfully, a number of people intervened in my absence and spoke up for the community. i appreciate that. the vast majority of our posters don't need to be reminded that VEB doesn't welcome venomous barbs and insult-laced exchanges. that's not the sort of thing that attracted a large community to the site; on the contrary, it's the sort of thing that drives people away. there are guidelines in place to ensure that differences of opinion remain civil and the overall discussion is reasonably intelligent. those guidelines were written, in part, because things got so ugly around here last september and october; i guess tempers just naturally wear thin late in a long season. . . . . anyway, we've got the guidelines in place this year, and a Community Board to keep the peace; and i'm gonna try to stay more on top of things from here on out, because i won't let the tone of this place to sink to the level of the post-dispatch boards or worse. if a discussion starts to devolve into a pissing match, i'll try to intervene before it gets too far along; if i'm not on the thread, i hope others will speak up or send me an e-mail.

on a more positive note: if you have any get-well wishes you'd like to send juan encarnacion, post them in this diary by cardsfaninmass. i'll forward the thread to the front office, so it can be delivered to encarnacion. he heard his share of boos on the field; might do him some good (certainly can't do any harm) to know that a lot of card partisans are wishing him a speedy and complete recovery.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

and now, a few words about baseball.

there was some discussion in yesterday's game thread about alternatives to maroth as the 6th starter, viz. keisler and brad thompson. thompson has made 13 starts for the st louis with a 4-3 and 5.02 era, which ain't great but still is better than reyes or wells (who remains in the rotation for some reason). despite having spent the last month in the bullpen and/or minors, thompson ranks 4th on the team in innings pitched --- yet he was not among the initial crop of guys added to the roster on september 1 (although, per the official site, he is expected to be activated soon). i think there's a simple reason thompson's not getting much love from laduncan: in his last appearance, on august 23, he beaned hanley ramirez in frustration immediately after yielding a homer to cody ross. the beaning flagrantly violated one of tony's rules --- and it wasn't the first time this season that thompson (aka puppy kicker) let his frustration get the better of him. thompson got sent down the next day. . . . . so that's one reason he's not under consideration. (i'm not saying i agree with tony on this, by the way; i'm just trying to understand the decision-making.) the other reason is probably that brad didn't pitch all that well as a starter. opposing hitters batted .308 and slugged .507 against him in his 13 starts; those figures rank 2d highest (avg) and 3d highest (slg) among all nl starters with more than a dozen starts. is he better than maroth? probably so --- but he's still not very good.

keisler (whose name surfaced here) put together a pretty good run at midyear; over a stretch of 10 starts lasting from july 1 through august 21 he posted a 3.48 era, lowering his season-long era (minors only) to 4.38. but he bombed in his last couple of starts, and even during the stretch of good pitching his peripherals were nothing to brag about. again, he might well be a better option than maroth, but that still doesn't mean he's a decent option.

couple of other mound-related notes:

  • pedro martinez, who's coming back from the same injury as mark mulder, made a successful return to the mound yesterday --- 5 innings, 3 runs (2 earned), 3 walks, 4 strikeouts. any performance of that type from mulder would be a big boost to this staff.
  • kip wells wasn't the only pitcher booed off the mound yesterday. zambrano also heard the catcalls --- and he wasn't amused by it, essentially booing back. since august 1, when he left a start early with heat cramps, he's 0-5 with an era of 8.29; the cubs have lost all 6 of his starts since then.
  • the Cardinal Clubhouse is celebrating its 5th anniversary by interviewing various Cardinal bloggers --- including yours truly. congrats to the clubhouse on 5 happy years.

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Snakepit
Amen, Lboros!

I was beginning to think I'd connected to BCB by mistake from the tone of quite a number of the posts.

Kudos to those who defended the community in a good way.

"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

by AustinBOB on Sep 4, 2007 9:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Wow...
Glad I didn't post much this weekend, looks like things were hectic. I get angry and make knee jerk posts sometimes, but nothing quite as awful as those.

Oh, and did anyone else see that in his first AAA start for the Tigers organization, Chris Lambert's line:
6 IP, 1 Hit, 0 ER, 10 k's.

Yowza, where was that for us Chris?

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 9:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah
But don't forget how Maroth pitched in his first start with the Cardinals organization.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 4, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad Thompson
I thought the reason Thompson hasn't been called up yet was that once sent down, he had to remain down for at least 2 weeks before being called back up.  Did I read that in error?

by HalfMagic on Sep 4, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

10 days
a player must spend 10 days in the minors before returning but that timer is up.  He should be back up now but I do think he pissed off TLR with his attitude containment issues.  Wells has similar issues I think, not in the violent sense that Thompson has but in the "woe is me" attitude he takes when he starts having a bad outing.  If either pitcher learned to channel the emotions they could be much better.  Wells in particular needs to work faster, I think he over thinks his pitches (the working slower lessens the defense thing isn't proving itself wrong either) and in the end he ends up beating himself.  He made good pitches that got fought off or landed for bloops and then he made sloppy pitches that got nailed.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

over thinking
i think you are right on it there. i bowl alot and coach bowling, and one of the biggest things that i teach is NOT TO OVER THINK!
when you over think, you tend to tense up and try too hard, i think that is kipper's biggest problem.

oh, and first time poster here, so please be gentle w/ me ;^)

"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

by Supergus on Sep 4, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome
Aboard, Supergus..........and just when I thought we had connected every possible sport to Cardinal baseball, here comes bowling!  What to go........seriously.  

by Hinkster on Sep 4, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

That reminds me of Algebra
When I was taking Algebra in HS I always was over thinking and messing myself up I had to teach myself not to over think to have success.
I cant agree more Supergus nice first post.

by Calhoun on Sep 4, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks!
yes, in bowling in order to get the ball to hook there are plenty of physics involved; but if you try to think about what you have to do to invoke those things, your ball will simply not hook, or hook very little...
same in throwing a baseball, trust your stuff and let the physics take over... just make sure you hit your "mark". (otherwise the ball will come out flat and then its batting practice time for the other team)
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 4, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pedro vs Mulder
I hope Mulder gets the win like Pedro did, but we're comparing a natural athlete (Mulder) with a pitching genie. Pedro can win without his best stuff - yesterday he won with essentially no stuff - just by pulling some smoke and mirrors out of his magic lamp. The guy is amazing.

We need Mulder to be back near his athletic prime, when his delivery was quick and fluid. Nothing against our medical staff, but that's just damn hard to do coming off major surgery. Especially with his weakened hip. Hopefully all this time spent "relearning how to pitch" has been towards this aim.

by taiko on Sep 4, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

can't we just replace mulders broken parts
with futuristic mechanical parts like in that old show , the million dollar man (i think was what it was called, before my time). I don't mind having a cyborg for a pitcher.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Six Million Dollar Man...
you must be a youngster! ;-)

Today, he'd be at least the Sixty Million Dollar Man.

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 4, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

ah I was close!
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cyborg?
I thought we already referred to Carp as the T1000!

by sdrone on Sep 4, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I posted yesterday about Pedro.....he is my
absolute favorite pitcher of all time.  There is NO ONE alive who enjoys his time on the field more than Pedro.  He also got his 3000th strikeout.  Add that to the best record over the last decade of all starting pitchers--he's the man.  The guy everyone said was too small, threw all wrong, was an injury risk.  Heck he lasted until 35 before going down--the little engine that could.

by jillsinmo on Sep 4, 2007 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kudos to all
Very well done by all the people that made sure this site stayed clean.

Lboros, I rarely post but read this 2-3 times a day and am happy you run such a tight ship.

As far as the Cards go, I am extremely frustrated that Wells continues to be in the rotation as well as Maroth.  I do not know why LaDuncan hate him so much, but I do think it is close to the reason Larry pointed out months ago.

That being that LaDuncan thinks that Reyes is an ego, citing examples of the straight hat and high socks and the ad nausem debate about the 4-seamer and 2-seamer.

I was at the game on Friday night with Reyes rough outing, and it is not any worse than Wells last 2 starts or what Maroth has done, minus his debut.  I agree that Reyes has been given a solid opportunity and has not seized it, but at least there is still upside, albeit dwindling by the day.

Again, Lboro's and those that contribute to this site do a great job.

Thanks for all the hard work.

by briferg07 on Sep 4, 2007 9:46 AM EDT reply actions  

It's very interesting
that both the cubs and the Cards sites are in the middle of a pennant race and one of the biggest discussion points is the boos from the home fans.  I'd like to discuss the response from the players.  If you didn't catch it Zambrano whined about it...
I don't understand why the fans were booing at me. I can't understand that. They showed me today they just care about them. That's no fair. Because when you are struggling, that's when you want to feel the support of the fans.

on the Cards side... Did anyone notice Kip nodding to himself as the boos cascaded down?    At his point, to analyze his response is probably just beating a dead horse, but did anyone see a postgame interview of him?

by _pistol_ on Sep 4, 2007 10:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Kips comments about booing
"I wasn't surprised," Wells said. "It's not like you're not out there trying to make good pitches. If they want to boo you, they can. They paid for their ticket. They can do what they want."

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Kip is used to it
Kip was probably booed in Pittsburgh too.  I think he would be nice to have back next year if he was our 5th starter but he probably can't be that next season just like he couldn't do that this season, until we can figure out our rotation I don't think Dunc has the time to figure out Wells.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wells and
Zambrano have more in common than boos--they are both psychologically soft. They allow the other team to get into their heads and rattle them. I just hope the Zambrano meltdowns continue through our last series with them. This year, they've been happening at just the wrong times to benefit us. He seems to get his head together by the time our boys face him. C'mon Z, keep that resentment of booing fans alive! You know you can never sacrifice enough to appease their selfish demands--keep that in your head, son.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed
In Wells' case, I think the umpires get to him even more than the fans or the other team does. If he doesn't get a borderline call, he immediately goes into the "why me" mode that leads to his self-destruction on the mound.

by taiko on Sep 4, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

the difference is......
I truly don't believe Cardinals fans would've boo-ed Carpenter if it was him who had that bad outing. You don't boo your ace, especially one that has been there for awhile. Kip Wells though, is a one year rental with no ties to the city , so he got boo-ed.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't be too sure
about that. The booing at Busch (2 and 3) has been much more common these past years. For instance, Izzy's no rental and he was savaged last year. I can see Carp getting the business if he was pulling "a Zambrano"--six bad starts in a row (who knows what the rainout game would've been--Z usually cruises the first 3 or 4 before imploding), baserunning gaffes, lackluster fielding--those things would have many Birdfans spitting invective. I don't boo Cardinals because I believe it hurts more than helps. However, I do feel I have the right to boo if I so choose.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

They have boo-ed
their own, like Izzy.  Didn't I read on the thread yesterday that Matt Morris was boo-ed as well as a number of others?

People of course have a right to boo.  But I think it's counter-productive and self-serving.  It further flusters a pitcher who is trying to make good pitches.  Niether Reyes nor Wells wants to pitch poorly and I'm sure they were torn up about their performances.  Neither one is a jerk.    

I don't want to get into an argument here.  I'm trying to stick with tactics.  I think it makes the game harder to play by people who are tryiing their best and having a god awful day.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

True...
however, I think there is a difference between booing a starter and booing a closer. Booing a closer is a kneejerk reaction. You are so close to a win, and in one inning everything is ruined. I suppose if Carp rattled off enough bad starts in a row, he could end up getting boo-ed.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I actually agree with you about Carp
He's in a different category from other starters because he's our ace.  I also don't think Wainwright would get boo-ed, given his contribution to the WS last year and his stepping into the open ace role this year.  People would probably just think they were injured if they melted down repeatedly.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hope
you guys are right. My cynicism toward human nature tells me otherwise, but it would be gratifying to be proven wrong. Here's to Carp never being awful enough for long enough to test it...

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

if booing a player
affects the player's psyche to the point where the booing is counter-productive, I don't think the player has the mental fortitude to be a professional athlete. Why would these guys give a shit what the fans think? They're in the major leagues because they are insanely talented (more so than anyone booing in the stands, by a long shot). If the act of booing really hurts their feelings, then their careers were over before they started.

by jeff abs on Sep 4, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's tough
to not care what the fans think when there are 40,000 of them screaming at you. Unfortunately, though, I agree. Guys like Wells and Zambrano do not have the mental fortitude to be pro athletes. However, Wells has had and Zambrano will have careers that end long after they started. And they will probably retire as very rich men. That's why whining about booing by players is so pathetic. In what other profession can you fail so often and still end up so well off? Yet, there are many more guys in the major leagues like Wells and Z than, say, Bob Gibsons or Ty Cobbs--guys who could bear down, prove you wrong, and stuff boos right back down your throat. Most are, understandably, frazzled by it. What gets me, though, is how so many don't realize that whining about it in the press just makes it worse.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Saying that
their careers are over before they started was probably a bit much, I guess my point was that they probably won't ever achieve true greatness as players. With such great talent should come great confidence. If booing actually affects their play in a negative manner, what's going to happen when their in a jam in the postseason or in a division title deciding game? Are they going to strike the last couple of guys out, or are they going to groove one right down central and let the game get out of hand? In the case of wells and Z, my money will almost always be on the latter.

by jeff abs on Sep 4, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I grew up in Philly...
maybe that's enough said, but Philly is probablely the toughest place to play any sport. Mike Schmidt got booed.

  As a visitor to the Ole' Vet and a Cards fan I was there during the 'Drew v. Battery' game. I was also there to witness Scottie's first game back to the Vet after his trade. Anyone remeber Scottie being booed for stepping out of the dug out.

 I have been to St louis once and Cards fan are the best fans in baseball. I think the crowd at Yankee stadium is second. Not counting the Philly fans I think the Red Sox fans are the worse I have seen. I  must say I have been to Yankee, Vet, RFK, Camden Yards, Sky Dome in Toronto, Busch II, Shea, PNC, and Fenway.

 See you in Pittsburgh on the 29th and 30th. I will be wearing #37 along with my last name. Stop by and say hi! Section 109.

 Plenty of tickets left... I say the Cards clinch
that weekend.

by nybirdfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Completely agree
with you and rockin redbird on this one.  People have a right to boo if they wish, but I feel it is counter-productive.  Dude already knows he is not getting the job done, the scoreboard can tell him that.

OTOH, I have no problem letting the ump know what I thought of the call he just made....

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 4, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah--
Umps are completely fair game. They got it coming.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone is
beyond reproach when it comes to booing, but I'd like to think that STL fans hand out longer leashes than most fans.  
However, in Zambrano's case... He just reaped what he sowed.  Z has repeatedly shown his emotion on the mound - ie fist-pumping, barking at the umps, etc.  The fans were simply wearing their emotions on their collective sleeve. Whether or not it was a productive response is yet to be determined. Z's productivity seems to be tied to his emotional state. Remember how he came out of the gates slowly - with contract concerns on this mind.  Then he suddenly found his groove after the altercation with Barrett.  Then his production fell off again after receiving the big contract.  If he mopes about  the booing fans, maybe he'll continue to struggle.  We can only hope.

by _pistol_ on Sep 4, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the boos are for management...
Let's the management know that hey... We can see Wells doesn't have big league material (in the arm, or head, or whatever) anymore.... we're not dumb.   I pay $50 for this ticket and $27 for this beer, why can't you put a better pitcher on the mound.

Personally, I'd just like them to try something else instead of running Wells out there start after start.   How about another bullpen game?  Those seem to have a better shot at winning than Wells.... with september call-ups, can't we find some AAA arms?  Or is management too stingy to spend the money? BOOOOO!!

by redbird2006in on Sep 4, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.
It's not against the player.  Boos are aimed at the management.  

Like last year - why keep trotting Izzy out there when he's falling apart?  It was frustrating.

On another note, I'd rather hear boos than the creative insults that some fans come up with in other cities.  People can get really graphic and nasty when a mere boo would suffice.

Spantalones

by spants on Sep 4, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the boos are for management....
people need to start turning toward the owners box and booing then :P
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most
of the fans ARE facing the owner's box. :p
Spantalones

by spants on Sep 4, 2007 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

A couple of other notes about Thompson
I agree that Thompson is not the greatest pitcher, but he did do a good job of keeping the team in a competitive situation.

In his 13 starts, the team won all his games but 3.

In 8 starts, he kept runs between 0 and 3.  In two others, he kept runs to 4.  Only twice did he allow more than 4 runs.  (I know this doesn't add up to 13--I only came up with 12, but his relief duties are confusing when skimming his page fast)

That sounds pretty attractive, considering what we've been suffering through lately.  He also tends to pitch at a good pace.

Also, the number of people who got on base when he pitched was countered somewhat by the number of double plays and easy outs he induced.

I've said this a couple of times already, but it is important.  Thompson did just pitch a 5 inning shutout with 62 pitches, which was a better performance than either Mulder's or Maroth's (who played against the same opposing team the previous night).

Tony has punished him for the unintentional hit (I don't believe it was at the batter's head; I think it was about chest high).  He should let him come up and give us our best chance to win with all our players available.  

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 10:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Best Chance??
Thompson should NOT get the next look. We need to give Wellemeyer another look. Im not a stat geek like some of you so i dont have it to back it up but I am pretty sure that the birds have a stellar record when he starts a game?

Plus, what is your opinion on having a bullpen game once or twice instead of having a 6 man rotation...I guess having Wells or Reyes starting turns into a bullpen game anyways.....

If we are not going to spend money on the players...spend it on the broadcasters...get rid of Al!!!

by Milfy McMilf on Sep 4, 2007 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

If Wellemeyer...
would just stop walking everyone, i'd be more of a fan. He has pretty good outings it seems when he has control of his pitches.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

attack the batters!
what ladunc need to get in these guys head (except for wagonmaker & looper) is they need to start attacking the hitters and getting first pitch strikes! instead they all seem to try and get way too "cutesy" and pitch around alot of hitters.
in other words...."hit yer damned spots guys!"
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 4, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree completely that this season isn't over
but Wainwright needs to do this too.  He often throws way too many balls around the edges of the strike zone (some of this is due to umpiring when the zone is squeezed).  He gets outs on a lot of 3-2 counts.  

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

That stupid subject line
automatically puts in a previous post's tag line.  Forget the "season isn't over" stuff.  

I meant to say:  I agree completely.....

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

(was) confused
yeah, i was a bit confused for a sec there.
i see your point on wainer, but fortunately he has the stuff (and guts) to finish the job, where these other guys usually just dont have "it".
(hopefully that made sense)
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 4, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

agree
Wainwright has that mental quality that can't be taught.  He knows the game, can adjust during a game, and he knows when to bear down and just "end this right now" he did it to Beltran, he did it to Inge and he did it a few weeks ago on a nice 12-6 curve to Braun.  He gets himself into trouble yet works out of it, he reminded me of Izzy last season and of Carp this season.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wainwright = Carp
He's beginning to physically resemble Carp on the mound.  His mannerisms and his pacing.  

It's refreshing to see at least one player on this team thriving and making adjustments in order to be successful.

Spantalones

by spants on Sep 4, 2007 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Made perfect sense
I don't get nervous when he gets to the 3-2 count for the same reasons .  But I don't  like seeing his pitch count go higher because of all the balls.  He's much better with shorter innings.  I guess that's my main concern with him.  I also think he has been playing too many games with 100+ pitches (for a young arm and one that has been prone to some injury in the past).

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Browser?
What browser are you using?

I know most browsers have an auto complete function that you can turn off.  That to me (or spy/ad ware) is the most likely explanation for what you are describing since I don't get that at all, mine brings up a list of past subjects that I can choose from but I have to hit the down arrow to choose them it won't automatically do it for me.

BTW I am on Firefox and I haven't used IE in such a long time that I don't remember how it handles auto completes.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm stupidly using Safari
I should switch my email over to Firefox.  

Thanks for the advice.  I'll try to turn off that function.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Safari isn't bad
Safari isn't really that bad but I would recommend at least trying FF, as for email client though Thunderbird is Mozilla's email program and fairly comparable to Outlook but if all you need is basic email services then I much prefer GMail's web interface to anything else I have tried.  Anyway turning that feature off should help.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well you are really helpful
I'll look into those options.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

adjust 6 man at least
At a minimum he needs to adjust the 6 man rotation so that Wainwright makes his starts every 5th day until he start showing signs of lost stamina, last outing wasn't great but he didn't implode either.  Looper I would like to see every 5th day but he is ok every 6th as well since he hasn't started before.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welleymeyer
also has a good win record (7-1 I believe).  But he has not had good stamina.  He only went into the sixth inning once and often lasted only 3 or 4.  Coming off rehab, endurance will be an even bigger problem.  

We have relievers to fill that gap, but I would rather have someone with more endurance and who has pitched just as well (and has logged many more innings as a starter).  We don't have that many excellent relievers and even the good ones have lost a number of games when they have gotten worn out.

I like Welleymeyer and I like how he pitches so I'm not opposed to him.  I'd be much happier with him than Maroth.  But I agree with another poster, he walks too many.  If they could develop Welleymeyer in the longterm and curb some of his walks, I think he could be pretty effective.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks lboros
for giving us a way to send Juan a message.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 10:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Good Interview Larry
That is a great way to summarize the fan base of St. Louis, I couldn't be happier to be part of this innocuous cult.

by Some witty name on Sep 4, 2007 10:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Pirates
Yesterday's outburst by the Pirates was not a fluke or just the result of Kip Wells' ineptitude. Rick Hummel points out in the Post that the Pirates set a club record with 45 home runs in the month of August.

For the last 30 days the Pirates are second in the majors in home runs, second in runs scored and in RBIs, third in slugging percentage, and first in total bases.

by Youneverknow on Sep 4, 2007 10:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Ug
Thanks, but I really didn't need to read that. I'm going to cling to my belief that it was "just one of those days" and cannot happen again. Maybe MattyMo will help us with a huge outburst of our own tonite.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Does that suggest that
the Buccos are starting to turn the corner, i.e., they are actually capable of doing one part of the game right?

It might be, but if any organization could find a way to screw up a good thing, it's that one.

"We're sniffing the winning situation."

by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 4, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

No
they do this every year.

Some years they start out hot, then go cold and finish strong.  Some years they suck the entire first half, then have the best record in baseball the 2nd half.

It's what they do.  I believe they may have had the best record in the NL in the 2nd half last year.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 4, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last year
Last year the Pirates were 27-54 in the first half of the season. In the second half, they were 40-41.

They were a perfect 1-0 in October, though!

by Youneverknow on Sep 4, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bucs prospects
don't leave them with a hell of a lot of hope, to be honest. They're high Single-A club is here in my hometown(Lynchburg, VA), and they had the worst overall record in the Carolina League at 55-82. Not to mention a team ERA of 5.01(with just one pitcher with a winning record), a BA of .258, and a slugging percentage of .391.

by cardsrul on Sep 4, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Memphis
I went to Memphis this past weekend and got a chance to talk to pitching coach Dyar Miller.  He said that Mulder's arm looked really quick and his ball had life.  He told me that his mechanics still need some tweaking but that there is absolutely no comparison between seeing him this year and when he was down there last year rehabbing.

On Maroth, he said he is definitely looking better than his first rehab start.  They have done lots of mechanics work and film work with him.  He said too that his pitches are beginning to come to life.

The starter on Saturday night was Thompson.  I was sitting right behind the plate and had a pretty good view of his pitches.  His sinker showed good 2 to 8 break.  As long as he kept the ball down, he was really effective.  For the most part he showed good command.  But he got tagged when he got the ball up.  

www.whiteyball.com

by whiteyball on Sep 4, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Awesome stuff...
and thanks for the info. Lets hope Dyar is right.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't here either this weekend...
Has it been noted in the last few days that the Ankiel as "The Natural" parallels run even deeper since Juan's awful accident?  Weird...
youneverknow

by meat on Sep 4, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

the baseball gods are cruel...
but this has to be a coincidence, right?

I think we are just extremely lucky to have someone able to step up and play the position.

"and we're grasping at rainbows, holding on till the end..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 4, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glad I was away
this weekend and missed all the "fun" on the game threads.  Sounds like some other blog sites I've read.  Thanks for enforcing rules and standards around here, Larry.  BTW, great interview over at Cardinal Clubhouse.  I think you nailed it with your definition of loyalty.  I'm a happy member of the cult too.      

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 4, 2007 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

my bad... all is well now
i just noticed that i forgot to switch the month on my pujols calendar; all is well now... albert can resume his abuse on pirates pitching.
(yeah, i am as superstitious as anyone out there)
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 4, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

That's something I've noticed...
Yankees fans boo A-Rod while he hits .306/.414/.635 with 45 HRs.

We're discussing how it's in bad taste to boo a pitcher that's 6-16 with a 5.75 ERA after he gave up 6 runs in 3 innings.

by craig3410 on Sep 4, 2007 11:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Best fans in baseball
We gave Larry Walker standing Os for striking out!
Spantalones

by spants on Sep 4, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

not by the numbers
i'm not a cardinal fan because of their win-loss record. sure, it's more fun if they win, but it's not about the numbers. i like the collection of individuals (a few i'd rather not have had on the team along the way, notwithstanding) that make up the cardinals. i like the moments they give us that have nothing to do with ERA or OBP. all i need to keep me a cardinal fan is knowing albert pujols stayed with juan encarnacion at the hospital till 3 in the morning because he thought he might have trouble with the language and getting what he needed. i agree i have the right to boo, but why would i want to, except to shift my own frustration onto someone else? i don't really like zambrano, but i agree with him that when players are down, that's when they most need support and not boos. i don't care much for steve phillips, but i agree with him that booing in baseball has the opposite effect of making a player try too hard and then all is lost. remember how the cardinal fans gave larry walker a standing ovation after he struck out? and he said how much that helped him? that's the cardinal nation i consider myself part of and wish were more in evidence.

i also just like the game of baseball because you're always seeing something you've never seen before. yesterday in des moines, in the last AAA game of the year and a meaningless one at that, the two teams decided to use one bat between them. so every batter used the same bat. it lasted until the 6th or 7th inning, and when it cracked, they showed it (ala star of the game) on the scoreboard. then they used just one more bat for the rest of the game. was very cool--passing that bat between them instead of each bringing their own to the plate. (they hit 4 homeruns between the two teams in the game so it didn't seem to hurt them any either!)

by thatsawinner on Sep 4, 2007 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

I think lots of Cards fans
feel the same way.  When I go to NY games, I usually come away thinking 'thank God I'm a Cardinals fan'.  I do think there is a tradition of respect in St. Louis worth preserving.  People have their rights to do what they want.  But is it good for the game or the team?  Not trying to be self-righteous here.  But I don't want St. Louis baseball to get even close to NY baseball.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

down to the last bat
that's hilarious.  a trivia gem. did the team budgets get tight at the end of the season, or somebody forget to put in an order for more lumber?
Play Roy Hobbs everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

By coincidence
Yesterday in Des Moines, in a meaningless end of summer workday, I used the same shovel all afternoon long to dig up dirt, grass and weeds that I then hauled to the back of our property to dump. Shovel held up all afternoon, unfortunately.

I used four extension cords to run a radio out to where I was working so I could listen to the game. That, as it turned out, was pretty much a waste of time.

And I agree: One of the distinct pleasures of going to baseball games is the very real chance you will see something you've never seen before. It's uncanny how often that happens.

by Youneverknow on Sep 4, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's really funny
same shovel all day, eh? very funny.

thanks to all the kindred spirits out there!

by thatsawinner on Sep 4, 2007 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Career first grand slams
Speaking of things you don't see that often, how many career first grand slams have the Cards had this season?  I know Dunc and Ankiel both had one but I don't think anyone else has though.

Also how many career first RBIs for pitchers have we had?  Reyes and Franklin both recently got that.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Piniero too?
First career RBI last week?

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Sep 4, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT: "To the White Sea"
Just read the interview and noticed the book you were reading. I read that a couple of years ago and liked it a lot. I just read a book a month or so back called "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy that reminded me of it a little - narrator makes long journey through an insane, foreign world. It was incredible. McCarthy is my new favorite author, and I'm reading everything I can get my hands on by him.

by taiko on Sep 4, 2007 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Get ahold
of "Blood Meridian"--it's his masterpiece. "Child Of God" and "Suttree" are also classics. I can't wait for the movie of "No Country For Old Men" coming soon. Javier Bardem looks absolutely satanic as the hit man.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Other titles ...
Cities On The Plain
All The Pretty Horses

He is monstrously good.

BTW - Oprah selected THE ROAD as her book of the month (apropos of nothing) and he actually WENT ON HER SHOW (he's a Texas recluse) and did an interview. I was floored. I can't imagine Oprah's readers really dug the hopelessly apocalyptic setting.

Blood Meridian ... now that would be a helluva flick. The Comanche raiding party scene would be as intense and hallucinatory as anything ever depicted on the screen.

by Urban Pawnee on Sep 4, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah--
That he went on Oprah really floored me too. Here's a guy who gives almost no interviews to anybody. Shows the power that woman really has. I don't know if I'd ever want to see a movie of "Blood Meridian." There are so few directors who could get it right, and the violence would have to be waaaaay toned-down, just to get an 'R' rating. Of course, I never thought anybody could do justice to Lord Of The Rings either. I dunno, a movie of 'Blood Meridian" would either the greatest thing ever or the worst. If it ever happens, I hope it's with a director that gets it.

by rockin redbird on Sep 4, 2007 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Country...
I just finished No Country. The ending left me a little cold, which is I guess what is supposed to happen, but it's a hell of a story. I'll definitely have to get Blood Meridian. Thanks.

by taiko on Sep 4, 2007 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Texas recluse probably sits
around watching Oprah every afternoon.....

by jillsinmo on Sep 4, 2007 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

booing
I booed because Wells has gotten clobbered by the 5th and 6th place teams his last 2 starts. Wells is a stopper...for the other team. We start a winning streak and you can count on him to stop it. I know our options are slim but we are running out of games to "hope" this is the one he turns it around. Just like a goalie in hockey, you have to go with the hot hand.
If we are not going to spend money on the players...spend it on the broadcasters...get rid of Al!!!

by Milfy McMilf on Sep 4, 2007 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

September Call-ups
I know that Stinnett will be removed from the restricted list now that Memphis' season is over, but is anyone aware of any additional call-ups?  Personally, I'd rather see Barden with playing time ahead of Cairo.  While he's nothing special, I also think Falkenborg can do better than both Cavazos and Jiminez.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 4, 2007 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Per stlcardinals.com transaction list
9/3/07  Recalled INF Brian Barden from Triple-A Memphis. Purchased contracts of RHP Brian Falkenborg and C Kelly Stinnett from Memphis.  

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hello to all
Hey I am a relatively new member here in this community and let me just say, its awesome!

I live in Indianapolis and I hear about the Cubs and the Reds way too much here, so much so that it gets overwhelming with the Cardinal hate I hear.  I come on here and talk trades, and free agency and about the guys on our squad with other members of the best fan group in baseball and it reminds me of how different we are as a fan group.

I mean, I have called a few trade proposals offered in diaries here unrealistic and sometimes borderline crazy and dumb, but what I love is that when the games go on, regardless of what we all think about the team and what their philosophy is, we become fans.  True fans, everyone one of us.  

So thank you to lboros and everyone else on here who helps make VEB the great Cardinal oasis that it is.

Looking forward to continuing the dialouge, and GO CARDS!

Let me get this straight...Rowand over Pujols??? Really, Tony?

by cardzfan24 on Sep 4, 2007 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Boo-urns
I live in Chicago and was golfing yesterday so I missed the Cards game.  My friend (who is a Cubs fan) and I were driving back into the city and listened to the Cubs game on the radio just in time for the boos.  I literally said to my buddy, "You guys are booing your ace.  That epitomizes why I hate the Cubs!  Our fans wouldn't even boo our 5th starter."  Then, I get home, read about the debacle of a game against the Bucs and realize that we did in fact boo our pitcher as well.  Disappointing to say the least.  I say good for Zambrano for what he said and bad on us for showing poor support.

by mattysha on Sep 4, 2007 1:58 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't think you follow the Cubs much
or you'd understand just how crappy Zambrano has been.   30 ERs in the last 28.2 innings.  He deserved a few boos.    

Unfortunately, of course, I've missed most of his dang games.   I love watching that guy implode.  That baserunning screwup was awesome.

Jacque Jones (who was laughably bad last year) handled many more boos much better than Zambrano has.

by sdrone on Sep 4, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

The poor guy
could not throw the ball 50 feet.  I enjoyed it at first, but at some point in the 2nd half of the season, I started to feel bad for him when it was obvious something was wrong.  Then he had a series of baserunning blunders; at one point he had 2 or 3 in about a week.

He should have been platooned, but Baker couldn't figure that out.  He was seemingly an automatic out/DP at times against lefthanders.

The right field fans got be be merciless as the season went on.  You could hear it even on TV.

by sdrone on Sep 4, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brian Barden called up
per the little rotoworld thingy on the side of the page.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Sep 4, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Stinnett
Why did I think that after Yadi got off the DL Stinnett retired?  Maybe I saw that they optioned him and I figured he wouldn't accept the assignment to AAA.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 4, 2007 2:25 PM EDT reply actions  

As I recall
Stinnett accepted the assignment of AAA but then backed out of it because of family issues.  That was reported as his having retired.  He was put on the "restricted" list because he accepted the offer but never showed up to Memphis.  And that created problems for bringing him up, but management seems to have worked those out.  Nice to have him back.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ankiel question
i know next year ankiel faces arbitration, but how many years does a player go to arbitration before they hit the free agent market?

by truemun12 on Sep 4, 2007 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Yelling at the TV
I was yelling at Tony to pull Wells after the 1st inning!  We need to either send Wells to the pen or DFA at this point.  Why we keep throwing him out there at this point is a little confusing to me unless you think Wellemeyer and or Falkenborg can't do a better job (I do)

Maroth needs a quick hook also.  I really like Dyar Miller but I've never heard him say too many bad things about ANY of the pitchers, so I'm not sure if I trust what he told you about Maroth.  Once again, he's a great guy, (which is probably the best way to keep your job is to not say bad things about your pitchers to fans).

I think we should just remove Wells if we really want to win this thing in September.

Wainer
Mulder
Loop
Pinero
Wellemeyer/Maroth/Pen

IMO

by MaskedMan on Sep 4, 2007 2:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Rotation
Seems a little odd to me, to have Muld2d2 as number 2, behind Wagonmaker.  IMO, Mulder hasnt thrown a pitch in the bigs since last year.  Yes, I know that he has been here before, successfully at that, but major shoulder surgery has taken place.  I know you are aware of it.  That is your opinion, and I respect that.  This is mine:

Wagonmaker
Loop
Pineiro
Mulder
WelleMarPen*
*

*I shudder when I think that Maroth will be in the rotation.

* I also lament the idea of a 6 man rotation.

Dont give up boys!

by yer dog first on Sep 4, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just saw on ESPNews
Ray King to the Brewers for PTBNL. I can't say I have fond memories of King--"Burger King" as my friend used to call him--but I do remember seeing him at Al Hrbosky's one night after a game. That dude took our girls with him to the VIP! Grrr.
.500, there you are!

by effin fisk on Sep 4, 2007 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Trade?
How can a trade be made after Aug 31?

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Walt said deals could still be made
in an interview he gave the other day.  Not sure how they do that.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

They aren't playoff eligible
but you can make a trade year round.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 4, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok
I didn't realize that, so the only implications of a trade after Aug 31 is the playoff eligibility.  That makes more sense then just outlawing trades all together like I thought they did.  Man this year has really been enlightening to me, I have never followed this much baseball or learned this much about the back end of the game before but I seem to be getting a grasp for all the inner workings.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, there is no real 'trade deadline'
Just certain dates that add restrictions.

The July 31st deadline is the beginning of 'waiver restrictions'.  Not sure when that ends, maybe the start of Free Agency?

The August 31st date is simply for a player having to be in a team's organization by this date for them to be possibly playoff eligible.  Like, Miguel Cairo.  He can be used to replace Scott Rolen once Rolen goes on the DL because Rolen will be placed on the 60-day DL.  

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 4, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere...
or if anyone has worked it out to be true, but according to Gordo in today's PD, the 6-man rotation will mean that Wainwright will miss the entire series with the Cubs.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/172CACF302A6A8068625734C0013BF2F ?OpenDocument

by svengali on Sep 4, 2007 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

well sure....
why would you want your BEST pitcher to go against the division leader and your biggest rival? ...amazing ...

by Timbo02 on Sep 4, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right...
so lets send Wells out there instead in Sept with us only 2 back ....that is a much better move..

by Timbo02 on Sep 4, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Waino didn't pitch well against the Dodgers
either and then pitched his first complete game against them.  And he allowed only 1 ER in his last game against the Reds even though he had lost to them twice before.  He struggled in that last game because he didn't have all his pitches available, but he still put us in an excellent position to win.  

Wainwright can make adjustments and we all know he handle pennant-deciding pressure.  So I'd choose him over all others.

The bigger question I think is how tired is Wainwright's arm.  He's moving towards the most innings he's ever pitched (182 in 2005).  The guy is amazing--he seems like he can run on fumes.  But at some point, those fumes may not be enough, even for him.

We haven't had Piniero long enough to know how consistent he's going to be or how well batters can figure him out when they face him repeatedly.  With the current schedule, the Cubs would see Piniero 3 times in relatively short order.  

After Wainwright almost got his no-no against KC, he came back the next week and had a couple of bad innings because they had caught on to him.  He realized that quickly, made adjustments, and shut them down for the rest of the game.  But damage was already done in the first couple innings.

I'd rather challenge the Cubs with different pitchers (well, our better ones).

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Been posted quite frequently, actually
Doesn't make it any less retarded IMO.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 4, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

6 man rotation - or 10 man tryouts?
It was nice to see Strauss quote tlr that maybe the 6 man idea won't stick:  "La Russa said the move may well be temporary.

"I wouldn't say you're going to see six guys in the rotation from here to the end."

If I recall last september correctly, we frittered away the division lead while tryouts for Izzy's replacement were strung out.  Even though Waino should've been favored, he gave everybody a shot, and didn't settle the issue until the last week.  That clearly worked out okay, but we had a lead to work with, and still almost blew it.

I think tony's play here is the same game of september tryouts, except we're behind two teams, and there is no chance of the wild card.  Reyes and Wells appear to have each blown their chances, Thompson too.  We really have to hope that Mulder fares as well as Pedro, and then what?  If Maroth gets one more chance to show something, I might live through it.  Just maybe he can through a surprise.

Play Roy Hobbs everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don't get why people
think Thompson has blown his chances as a starter.  He had one bad game starting against the Brewers and he's seemingly doomed forever.  How about all his other successful starts that have kept us in the race right now?  

He's not been very good as a reliever.  But he's better than the other "extras" available as a starter, if you consider number of earned runs and games won when he's pitching, how deep he plays into games (mostly 5-7 innings), and his most recent 5 inning shutout in Memphis (which was a better performance than Maroth's).  There's no question he's a safer option than Maroth.  Welleymeyer is equal in my mind except he has endurance issues.

This site used to be supportive of Thompson when he was starting and felt pretty confident about the games he was going to be in.  It's strange to see support evaporate so quickly for a player.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tony doesn't like him
It isn't that he blew his chance with us as fans it is that he seems to have blown his chance with Tony.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope that's true about fans
but isn't it ironic that Tony completely blows his stack over Brad's temper.  Tony used to talk about Brad's temper in somewhat affectionate terms and framed it in terms of Brad's overall competitiveness, which TLR used to praise effusively, so the whole thing is puzzling.  

As an aside, I don't think the hit batter explains Thompson's demotion (again, I don't think they are being truthful about their reasoning) because Reyes hits lots of batters with pitches and he's never punished.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

HBP
Since I just did a ranking of HRs I figured I would do a HBP.  Top 5 on the team in order are Thompson 11, Wainwright 8, Wells 8, Reyes 7, Looper 4.

By rate HBP/9 Thompson (.9), Reyes (.63), Wells (.49), Wainwright (.43), Looper (.23)

Thompson hits lots of batters, one every 10 IP to be exact and I think Tony may be thinking that he is doing it on purpose.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe he does but
TLR said emphatically afterward that it wasn't intentional.  I think he believes it's a control problem, which it may be.  But he was fine with it for months.  I just don't think TLR is very honest with the press.  He does what he wants and says what's convenient.  He's kind of like a politician in that way.  That doesn't mean he's a bad manager.  But he's sometimes impossible to read.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lawyer
He is a lawyer which is the basis for most political careers.  I am starting to think the same thing, Tony says what he wants not necessarily the truth.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thmpson's Chances
My comment was attempting to interpret the complexities of tlr's mind, and his notion of starting the puppy-kicker in september.

For myself, Thompson makes me cringe less than many others that are paraded out to tow the rubber, and strain their necks watching the ball get wasted into the cheap seats.

Play Roy Hobbs everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Check your stats
Thompson has given up 20 HR, Looper and Wells 17 (Wells also had a homerless streak from Jun 2 to Aug 14), Reyes 13, Wainwright 11, Maroth 10, Pineiro and Wellemeyer 7.

By HR/9 this gives us a ranking of Maroth (2.88), Pineiro (1.85), Thompson (1.64), Wellemeyer (1.34), Reyes (1.16), Wells (1.05), Looper (1.00), Wainright (0.59)

So in reality Thompson has caused the most neck craning and on average causes more then Reyes or Wells does.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

but the team has won all but 3 of his games
and they've lost most of Wells' and Reyes' games.  I'll turn my head every once in a while as long as we win.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't say I didn't want him starting
I much prefer Thompson starting over Wells (for one thing Thompson is under control Wells is not) also for all the HRs he gives up Thompson still has a better ERA then Reyes or Wells (5.07 compared to 5.63 and 5.75 respectively)

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cringing
Thanks Hugo.  I guess not cringing as much when Thompson pitches was not well founded.
Play Roy Hobbs everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks for the explanation
plus Thompson does supply us with such good one-liners like kicking puppies.

My favorite line he said to a reporter after one of his early starts:  "That's baseball.  It hurts."  

It must be hard being stranded down in Memphis while he watches other people completely blow up.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

A question:
if Tony and Dunc think it makes sense to have Wainwright miss the Cubs, b/c of poor previous performances against them, why do they think it's OK to run Reyes out on 8 days rest, as they did last week?  He'd had two horrible performances earlier in the year on 8 days rest, then removed him from the rotation (in favor of Maroth, no less) for pitching poorly on 8 days rest.  So why did they push him back from the Astros series to the Reds series.  Not only is he facing a tougher lineup who hits more homers (his major concern, given his high fly ball %) but he had to go on 8 days rest instead of his usual 4.

I know most agree with me that holding out Wainwright is a bad decision.  So why put Reyes in a similar situation -- i.e.:  one in which he hasn't been successful so far?  Now we have Kip in the rotation and Reyes in the bullpen (where he won't be used).

by chuckb on Sep 4, 2007 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I just don't think
they have any idea how to handle Reyes at all.  part of me wants to see him succeed as a reliever and part of me wants him to get a fresh start with a team that knows what to do with him (preferably not an NL Central team.)
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Sep 4, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reyes + Petterson would be fanstastic
The Mets coach seems like the guy that would turn him right around.  See: Perez.

Duncan just doesn't know what to do with guys that are not sinkerball types.

by DriverZn on Sep 4, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

DriverZn......I can totally see Reyes
clicking with Petersen (I think that's the correct spelling) they really do have a diverse group of pitchers, and he has done wonders with Oliver Perez, who pitches similiarly to how Reyes pitched before they tried to change him.  I always have wanted Reyes to stay---when they were auditioning him for the Phillies, he pitched how I saw him pitch in the minors.  He won that game.  Why can't they see that works for him for now and ease him in to that ground ball pitch when he's got to have that ground ball pitch?
But then I watch Duncan reading through that big white notebook during games.  He just can't put a new page in there for Anthony.......it hurts the organization, because he doesn't even have trade value now.  Petersen has also gotten some good innings out of Jorge Sosa in both starting and relieving....we got nothing out of him here last year...

by jillsinmo on Sep 4, 2007 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree
I really want the kid to succeed and unless we get a new pitching coach and manager I just don't foresee that place being here.  I wish it could be but I just don't know why he can seems so uncomfortable on the mound, he has faced pressure and overcome it yet just can't do it on a regular basis it seems.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not me
I want him to succeed...but as a Cardinal.  If we're going to trade him, I'm cool with that but the better he pitches, the higher his trade value is.  I don't really care how good he is, unless he's a Cardinal.  

I just don't get the rationale of that decision.  Tony and Duncan should be interested in what's best for Reyes, but that concern is secondary to his concern for the team, both now and in the future.  

I think probably NY is right (see below) that they just made that up to put him on the same path as Mulder b/c, intellectually, the decision makes no sense in light of the way they're treating Wainwright.  

To me, right now, the decision to go w/ Maroth only makes sense in that we have to determine what his future is -- should we offer him arbitration in the offseason?  Right now he's probably not materially worse than Reyes or Wells so what the hell?  But, if that's the line of thought, keeping Wells in at Reyes' expense makes no sense.  There is no doubt that Wells has no future as a Cardinal beyond this season.  Does Reyes?  Who knows but we need to find out.  If we're going w/ Maroth to see what he can do, shouldn't we do the same w/ Reyes?  Does Reyes give us less of a chance to win the division than Wells does now?  Stats and observation say no.  I just don't understand their decisions at all.  They seem to be very inconsistent.

by chuckb on Sep 4, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think they were being honest
at the time i thought they were manuevering Reyes to the 31st so that they could replace him with Mulder if he didn't play well again.  That way, they wouldn't disrupt Mulder's schedule.  I also thought it was rediculous to monkey with Reyes' schedule and put him up against a more difficult lineup if they were primarily interested in his welfare.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You haven't recognized?
LaRussa and Duncan will say whatever suits them at the time.  They feel no obligation to be internally consistent with their statements, or 100 percent honest in their dealings with the public/media.

Not a criticism from me (their results speak for themselves), just an observation.

Case in point: LaRussa said after yesterday's game that any pitcher who hits someone in the head should be suspended, regardless of intent.  Yet, he didn't pull Cavazos immediately after he hit Nady?  Why not?  Because he wanted Cavazos to eat some innings (a futile hope, as it turned out).  If LaRussa really believed in the principle of what he said, he would have pulled Cavazos himself.

by blove121 on Sep 4, 2007 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Must win for your mental health
We have to win today and pick up a game on the Cubs.

Cubs pitching Matchup:

Brad Penny (LAD) vs Steve Traschel (CHC).

Lou is using Traschel as a calculated risk to shuffle the rotation so that the Cardinals will face Zambrano (a move that could blow up in his face).  

There has to be a .04% chance of the Cubs winning today going against Penny with Traschel on the hill.

Pineiro is our new 'Suppan' doing it with smoke and mirrors.  The offense needs to wake the hell up and score some runs on Matty Mo.  

If we are not 1 game back of the Cubs by midnight tonight, my mental health will need some serious attention.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 4, 2007 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

That Trachsel trade
was vintage Tony and Dunc.  I'm glad we didn't make it.  The Cubs' rotation just took about 2 steps backward when it added him at the expense of Marshall (I guess that's who they're dropping!).  Even Marquis is a better option.  

Of course, they probably said the same about us when we dropped Reyes in favor of Maroth.

by chuckb on Sep 4, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

For just a minute your wording creeped me out
But I think that I figured it out.
Release Kip Wells!

by Big Mike on Sep 4, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think
that's the word you're looking for.  At least I hope not.

Testee, perhaps?

Spantalones

by spants on Sep 4, 2007 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about some assured defense as well
Tonight I'd rather see Schumaker or Ludwick in left field and not Duncan.  That last running into the wall episode left me shaking my head, saying "poor poor Reyes".  Skip was one of the only players to get a hit yesterday and Luddy has been hitting well of late.  

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 4:31 PM EDT reply actions  

duncan
just play the duncan game like i do...
if he hits the wall and does not catch the ball, the you have to have a straight shot of tequila (to feel the same pain as he does)
if he dives or hits the wall and catches the ball, you have a shot of tequila w/ lime and salt (not as painful)
if he just catches the ball, just pour some more tequila into your margarita. (painless)

:^D

"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 4, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

and who cleans up ...
the three foot long divot he kicks up after diving?

by Urban Pawnee on Sep 4, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you from Canton?
I grew up there, listening to Jack Buck deliver the broadcast on WBYS.

by lawman3842 on Sep 4, 2007 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

big city Canton
yeah, i am from the big city and still live there.
very nice town, too bad Harvester left and burnt to the ground.
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 5, 2007 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hardcore's Mental Health
I think vebers have been tending to your mental health all season.  i don't know what serious attention might require.

It would finally be great to get to just one back.  It seams to me we greeted Matty Mo with a lot of hits last time around, and they better do it again.

If not, I'm checking the cabinet for the hard stuff.  That might qualify for serious attention on my account.

Go Cards, lets keep blogging sober.

Play Roy Hobbs everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 4:36 PM EDT reply actions  

2007 starters
I just looked at the 2007 stats for our starting pitchers combined versus that of the NL.

ERA 5.02 15th (Marlins are 16th)
W 42 (tied with Hou for 11th)
L 59 1st....oh yeah 16th... :(
CG 2 tied for 9th but one was a 5IP rain call...
ER 420 11th
BB 267 8th (not bad)
SO 456 15th....ugg
BAA .280 13th
IP 753.1 14th (too much pressure on bullpen)
HBP 37 tied for 12th
HR 94 5th (WHAT? how are we that good...don't know)
OPS .794 12th
WHIP 1.46 13th
WP 17 tied for 3rd (but with fewer IP)

So we don't have the worst starting staff, but man I never realized how good our pen is (3rd in W with 25 {1st place is a two way tie with 26}, and 1st in L with only 8).

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

This was interesting from Bernie
He listed this afternoon team wins and losses for the following starters (of course this doesn't say anything about ER or run support).

Wainwright 17-10
Looper 16-10
Pineiro 4-2
Wellemeyer 7-1
Thompson 10-3
Keisler 2-1
Maroth 1-5
Wells 7-22
Reyes 4-15
Carpenter 0-1

Cardinals are 12-42 when Wells, Reyes and Maroth start.

I'm so glad we still have 2 out of 3 on board during our big push!

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 4:43 PM EDT reply actions  

And expected W/L
Adam Wainwright    12.1    7.9
Braden Looper    10.7    8
Kip Wells    6.3    12.9
Anthony Reyes    5    7.6
Brad Thompson    4.3    4.4
Joel Pineiro    2.2    1.6
Todd Wellemeyer    2    2.9
Mike Maroth    0.7    4.1
Randy Keisler    0.6    1.1
Chris Carpenter    0.1    0.6

This is assuming equal offense/defense for all the starters.

by DriverZn on Sep 4, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand this
since Wainwright has more than 12 quality starts and I calculated earlier that Thompson has given up fewer than 3 ER in 8 of his games.  I would think "expected" win/loss would mean what a pitcher should expect to win given an adequate offense.  

If you are using our sometimes horrible offense and simply dividing that up among our pitchers, that's interesting, but it has problems (as does Bernie's list) because it doesn't recognize the number of quality starts--which a good team should be able to win with.  Our offense has been truly bad.  

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

A QS doesn't mean a win
Because the other pitcher may also turn one in ;)

Its the BP stat that attempts to show how well or poorly a pitcher performed the things within their control.  It still shows Wainwright and Looper to be our current #1 and #2.  Pinero being the only other starter expected to have a winning record.

It also shows that Maroth and Wells have pitched just as bad as we all thought.

Reyes, Thompson, and Welleymeyer are the three where the real W/L is more illusion than a real evaluation of their ability.

It does factor in QS, but a starter going 6ip and giving up 3er doesn't not = 1 win.  More like a 50% chance of a W and 15% chance of a L. (% numbers aprox)

by DriverZn on Sep 4, 2007 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

one last note on this from Bernie
": there is a minor statistical discrepancy on the good side in terms of the records under the winning pitchers; I added it up as 56-27, but it would have to be 55-25 to fit the Cardinals' 67-67 record; I'll try to figure out why, but I relied on the STATS data base.... either way, it doesn't change the overall point."

Usually, I don't parrot Bernie.  But it seemed interesting given our present rotation considerations.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to Bucs Dugout
http://www.bucsdugout.com/story/2007/9/3/175637/1890
"Bryan Bullington has been recalled and will start on Wednesday, the Trib reports."

That means Wednesday's game will be:

Mulder 0-0 Career ERA 4.11
Bullington 0-0 Career ERA 13.50

Bullington is a RHP with a 4.00 ERA in the minors this year with a 11-9 record, seems like just the guy to shut us out.

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 5:07 PM EDT reply actions  

bullington was the #1 overall selection
in the draft 5 years ago. he reached triple A in 2005 and made his big-league debut (1 game in relief) but missed the entire 2006 season with an injury.

by lboros on Sep 4, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's had a nice season at AAA. In another
lifetime Bullington was a "Legion Legend" out of Madison, In.  He broke a strikeout record by more than 100, or something like that.  My husband gave a talk at Hanover College in Madison, In. and my son made me take him to Madison High so he could see Bullington's wall of fame--it had a lot of awards and records.  Hope he pitches well, um, next time out.....

by jillsinmo on Sep 4, 2007 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Matt Albers
can shut down the Cardinals twice, there's no reason this kid can't.

He started the AAA All-Star Game here in Albuquerque. Looked pretty good the first inning, but got hit pretty hard in the second, if I remember correctly. And I'm probably not. I'll try and look it up.

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 4, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

From the all-star game notes...
"Indianapolis pitcher Bryan Bullington (1-0) struck out four and gave up two runs and two hits in two innings of work to get the victory for the International League All-Stars, who have won the last two all-star contests."
Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 4, 2007 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nonsense!
Listen to you Negative Nellies!

This Bullington kid is a RHP, not a leftie!  No way he shuts us out.

We'll probably score at LEAST 1 run in his likely 7IP, maybe even 2!  So there!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 4, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said shut down
not shut out.

So I concur with your 1 or 2 runs in 7 innings against the kid. =)

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 4, 2007 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lineup for today per Bernie
eck
ankiel
pujols
edmonds
duncan
molina
branyan
pineiro
cairo

by StLHugo on Sep 4, 2007 5:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Did I read that right?
Does that say "Cairo" at the very end?  Please tell me I'm hallucinating!

by chuckb on Sep 4, 2007 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's a vet
Here to save us from the young Ryan.

by DriverZn on Sep 4, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

that really doesn't look promising
why are we leaving out so many of our close to .300 or .300+ batters, like Brendon, Skip, and Miles?  Didn't we put up a big 0 last time on the offensive side?  And we don't even have the bats of Wainwright or Wells to counterbalance offensive weakness.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

So people complain about Miles
being in the lineup, then complain about him being out?  (FYI, not sure if you in particular are a proponent of one or the other.)

by saladdays on Sep 4, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

i've never complaiined about him
being in the lineup.  He hits the ball consistently, which is more than I can say about Eckstein.  And i think they have about the same numbe of errors.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK
Like I said, I couldn't remember who was saying what about Miles.

by saladdays on Sep 4, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm...
Put Ryan in for Cairo and then swap the #1 and #9 spots and I really like that order. 7 out of 9 isn't not too bad.
Hello, playoff mosey

by Alxfritz on Sep 4, 2007 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let me show Tony how to fix this lineup
Ryan SS
Ankiel RF
Pujols 1B
Edmonds CF
Duncan LF
Molina C
Branyan 3B
Pineiro P
Miles 2B

There ya go, Tony.  No need to thank me.

I say this, but Miles, Eckstein, Cairo and Branyan have had 'some' success against MattyMo.  

If Juan could see, he'd be starting in RF, Ankiel in LF.  Chris is 1 for 7 against MattyMo with 3 Ks while Juan is 7 for 21 with 2 HRs and 8 RBI.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 4, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this lineup a lot better
but I would take out Duncan and put in Skip.  Duncan is really struggling defensively and offensively and we need this game.  Skip was one of the few who hit last night and he is great defensively.  

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Record of Futility
Looking at those loses assigned to Wells, I had to look back for some perspective.  I got back to 1990 before I found someone with more, when Jose DeLeon ended up 7-19 and Joe Magrane at 10-17.  But what struck me is how Wells has already managed to match several marks of that pitcher not-to-be-named of last year!  Betty, meet Boop.

Starter    W    L    ERA    GS    IP    H    HR    R    ER    BB    SO    WHIP    WPA    BRAA
Betty'06    14    16    6.02    33    194.1    221    35    136    130    75    96    1.52    -2.1    -31.56
Boop'07    5    16    6.15    25    134.2    159    17    105    92    65    97    1.66    -3.08    -34.2

Play Roy Hobbs everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 5:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Just to add, according to fangraphs
Well's BRAA of -34.20 is the worst of 280 pitchers.  Even J Weaver has improved to only -16.10.  And Tomko just picked up by the Padres to "Shore-up" their pen was at -14.75.
Get well Juan!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boop
Well played, sir.
.500, there you are!

by effin fisk on Sep 4, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is encouraging about Juan
Bernie is reporting that Juan is out of the hospital now and will be examined again by doctors early next week.  Timing of future surgery will depend on how fast his swelling decreases.

He also said that Juan was able to sit up today and can see a little.  He was able to open the injured eye a bit today.

Small steps.  But great news!

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 6:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks for the update
That is good news.  I just added a post to the Juan Tribute Diary.  Hope more do.  He deserves a flood of encouraging mail.
Get well Juan!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 4, 2007 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

also thanks
to Mr. ELBoros for the opportunity to send Juan a message. we appreciate it down here.
From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Sep 4, 2007 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thompson was recalled
so our previous discussions about him may have been due to MLB misreporting that he was still down in Memphis.

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 6:34 PM EDT reply actions  

for the record every one
i was joking last night when i took a shot at the new kid erin when i said booo and told him to go play in his tree house and let the adults talk. he and the fan from ny didnt take it as the joke it was ment to be. so i retracted my statement and apologized to erin. i wasn't trying to pick a fight, but they took it like that and i guess other did to. i dont know what i can do in the future to make it more obvious i'm joking, but i'll try and figure something out.

last month i took almost three weeks off of VEB because i let personal feelings get in the way of the true purpose of what VEB is all about. a place where Cardinal fans all over the globe can come together and talk about their favorite team. i'll do my damnest to never let that happen again. it goes without saying this is THE BEST Cards site, not just blog on the web today. i feel very privileged to be a part of what makes it so great. it's an honor to be here. and i dont want to ever be a reason why this site loses viewers.

i saw earlier today the fan from oklahoma got the joke. i'm glad at least one person did.

and as always, GO CARDINALS

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Sep 4, 2007 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

I just thought you were being
hard on Erin after all she went through above in standing up for her opinion.  Maybe after such an extended argument, saying simply 'just joking' or 'ha, ha, ha' would clarify your mood in making statements that could be taken as a jab by someone who had been under fire from multiple directions.  But you were really nice in how you apologized and your exchange with her wrapped up well, I thought.  

My comments to you weren't because I was part of the argument above.  I just felt like she was standing out there a little bit too alone.  And I was going to apologize to you for the treehouse statement I tossed back at you, but it was late by the time I got back to the computer, and by then it seemed resolved.  So I let it go.  

But I do want to say that I hope you don't go away for weeks again because of your personal investment in your opinions.  I'm new here and I've been controversial lots of times so that might count against me.  But I think it would be a real loss to VEB if you went away like that again.  

by nycardfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

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