Game 159 Open Thread: September 27, 2007

Pond Scum

is my second least-favorite team in the majors. I will be rooting hard for the Cards tonight.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 27, 2007 6:28 PM EDT reply actions

Wow.....this one is tough for me......

Pedro is my favorite pitcher, behind Johan...I just hope for a well played game, how's that?

by jillsinmo on Sep 27, 2007 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions

How bout Pedro

has a good outing, but we get to their bullpen.

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks. I'll accept that.......it's hard to root

against my personal favorite players.....

by jillsinmo on Sep 27, 2007 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions

I cant even begin to describe how completely and utterly happy I am over the Cards ending Pedros (the ex-2004 Red Sox) and possibly the Mets season on an such an unhappy note....and that Albert smacked him around is sweet icing on the cake. Viva El Birdos!! El Birdos are his new Daddy! New York can write about this!

Youth movement or not, I want Carpenter, Speezio JEd and Rolen back in '08...yeah, those old guys that play the game like pros.

by cardschinmusic on Sep 28, 2007 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Just saw

That Jason Bay might be on the table.

It says that two arms would be needed.

Well Reyes would be one. Could we come up with another player?

That would free up Duncan to be traded for pitching.

Maybe even a larger deal say Bay and Morris...Reyes and Duncan would just be a start. Maybe Anderson? I would rather not trade Garcia.

by Harknights on Sep 27, 2007 6:37 PM EDT reply actions

Ah, I think I'll pass on Jason Bay. He has

quite a large contract and he's not that great of a player, and he's coming off of a bad year.

by jillsinmo on Sep 27, 2007 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't know

04 - .282/.358/.550
05 - .306/.402/.559
06 - .286/.396/.532

07 - .248/.328/.420

I would say he has been good...not this year. He is only 28 he is owed $5.75M for 08 and $7.50M in 09 I think that's a good contract.

by Harknights on Sep 27, 2007 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Bay and Morris

I second the opinion above. I was at a Pit/Hou game where MattyMo was the starter. He was fine through the first 3 2/3; then the wheels fell off. IMHO, his better days are behind him. We dont need over the hill, past their prime pitchers on our staff anymore.

Oh how wonderful it will be when the offseason comes. Lets sign some guys and get back to respectability in the NL Central!

by yer dog first on Sep 27, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions

McClung and Yost suspended

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3039761

by Pujols on Sep 27, 2007 6:45 PM EDT reply actions

That was predictable

they really are idiots.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions

They may be better off

without Yost - give him a game to cool off and refocus without distracting the team.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 27, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Since Yost has been ejected

in the last three out of four games (I think), it may not seem that much different. I guess it will take out the drama of when is Yost going to get thrown out this time....

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions

I just cannot

get over Yost's stupidity. What a dumb, short-sighted thing to do/call for. Not the way to lead a team in the playoff hunt, especially a team playing a depleted Cards roster. It's laughable, really.

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Cubs

LOSE.

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 7:15 PM EDT reply actions

My favorite comments

from one of the BCB readers with a sense of humor:

"Relax, it's just a sweep."

I wish we were still in on this.

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Yup. Marlins 6, Cubs 4.

DLee had a decent at bat in the 9th, but both ARam and DeRosa went down quickly after hacking at the very 1st pitch...while trailing by 2 in the 9th.

Not smart. The collapse continues!

Go Brewers!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 27, 2007 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions

nice hit

egypt. >_>

by Pujols on Sep 27, 2007 7:24 PM EDT reply actions

well done, skip

Have a couple of good games the rest of the season and you might become a trade-able commodity...

And the Phillies are up 4-0 in the 1st inning- we could knock the mets into a two-way tie for first place today!

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 27, 2007 7:24 PM EDT reply actions

Could?

It's Gonna Happen.
We Believe.
Insert cliche here!

I'm sorry but I'm loving the utter chaos of the NL playoffs.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions

"Your season has come"

to an end in September ;)

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 27, 2007 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions

"Why not us?!?!"

....To ruin everyone's month.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Joel Piniero

just struck out the most exciting player in baseball.

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 7:28 PM EDT reply actions

Twice!

And it was twice as exciting the second time around!

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 28, 2007 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions

The only difference between Pedro and Mulder

honestly, is stamina. Mulder was much better for 2 innings even without his shoulder completely attached than Pedro is. All Pedro is doing is changing speeds and putting as much spin as possible on every pitch...ya know, pitching.

I'm not saying Mulder is great, Pedro certainly isn't either. But I guess if Pedro can figure out how to get MLB hitters out still with his 84 mph fastball, Mulder and his 89 mph fastball should atleast be useable.

This, all of course, predicates on his shoulder healing by April.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 7:31 PM EDT reply actions

The difference between Pedro and

Mulder is that Pedro LIVES to pitch. He will do whatever it takes to stay on the mound, simple as that.

by jillsinmo on Sep 27, 2007 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions

and Mulder's just waiting for his paycheck

why do we make all of these character assumptions about players?

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't

think she meant it as a character judgment. I think she was saying that Pedro seems obsessed with pitching.

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions

That's kind of my point

based on what? Comments to the press? Mulder's stated repeatedly that he wants to show STL "how he can pitch" (i.e. what he used to look like in OAK). Pedro's hinted at retirement for a while now so I'm not sure how obsessed he is with pitching. But I don't know since I don't know either of them.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions

No, I didn't mean it as a character judgement

AT ALL--I meant it as a long time reverential fan of Mr. Martinez. I have NEVER seen any other player who seemed to enjoy his time at the ballpark more than Pedro. I think a part of him would die if he had to leave the game on anything other than his own terms. That's all.

I don't think Mulder's problems returning have anything to do with his work ethic, and I have no doubt that he wants to come back, I mean it's a lot to put yourself through, surgery and rehab, and then do it again. I think his shoulder was more severely injured than anyone thought.

by jillsinmo on Sep 27, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Goooo Molder!!

Be his Daddy next year!!

Youth movement or not, I want Carpenter, Speezio JEd and Rolen back in '08...yeah, those old guys that play the game like pros.

by cardschinmusic on Sep 28, 2007 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions

Not disagreeing

with anyone here, but I did want to point out that the more we look at it now, the more likely it appears that Mulder had been pitching with his shoulder in tatters for the better part of two years. I repeat: two years. I think that goes a long way toward explaining why he's going to have a much harder time coming back than he should have.

It also, in my opinion, says an awful lot about the guy's competetive fire. He may look like he's waiting for a bus on the mound, but he did come back out and pitch last fall with an arm that was, literally, barely connected at the shoulder. I think there's more to Mulder than what usually shows. Of all the players on last year's championship squad, including several that the fan base absolutely worships for the type of people and competitors they are, Mulder's the only one who took any steps to try and commemorate the title. To me, that counts for an awful lot.

Free to a good home.

by the red baron on Sep 28, 2007 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions

"Competitive"

Seriously. If SB ever gets around to the upgrade they promised, I sincerely hope an edit button is one of the inclusions. I shouldn't have to live with my spelling errors for all eternity.

Free to a good home.

by the red baron on Sep 28, 2007 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions

1-2-3 in the 1st...

nice going Joel!.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 7:32 PM EDT reply actions

well, if you dont count the double by Wright

it was 1-2-errrrr-3

by FunkeeC on Sep 27, 2007 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions

woops....

gameday and I saw differnt things there....pass the scotch!!

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Stinnett was safe

I don't care how excited Dan got in his pants.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 7:34 PM EDT reply actions

Maybe not.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Albert....

this guy is just the best.....

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 7:48 PM EDT reply actions

Another run for Mr. Pujols

by hannah_in_va on Sep 27, 2007 7:51 PM EDT reply actions

97?

by tomsteele on Sep 27, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Remember how everyone was raving about

Peterson being such a great pitching coach. Their entire pitching staff has completely fallen apart.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 7:56 PM EDT reply actions

They are ranked #7 in pitching by ERA

Not bad, not great.

Just one starter with an ERA about 4.55.

If our staff has the following ERAs from the starters would you take it?

3.3
3.7
4.0
4.1

by DriverZn on Sep 27, 2007 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions

So true...

and what happened to Jose Reyes the 2nd half? Not saying he went belly up, but sure did drop off from what he was doing..

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 8:01 PM EDT reply actions

Do my eyes deceive me??

9 pitches an inning for Jo-el

by hannah_in_va on Sep 27, 2007 8:01 PM EDT reply actions

Tell me again why we aren't currently throwing

money at Joel Pineiro for a 2 year contract?

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 8:01 PM EDT reply actions

Um.......

saving it to go after Kippy?.....AGH!!

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Probably going to see if he will exercise his

option first.

But yes, I would take him back on a short term deal.

by DriverZn on Sep 27, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions

+1

n/t

by spants on Sep 27, 2007 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Pineiro in STL isn't a dramatically different

pitcher than he has been in Seattle or Boston. He's getting the fewest groundballs in STL he's gotten anywhere the last 3 years, and he's striking out a similar amount.

The biggest difference is that he's halved his walk rate in STL and he's stranding an inordinate number of baserunners. Basically the question is whether the Cardinals should bank on that being a change in skillset or an aberrant data spike. (One guess what I think it is. . .) Even with the better walk rate Pineiro is a back of the rotation pitcher at best. Let's not base our offseason decisions on one start.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions

ahahah

that was great when pedro took off his jersey and the crowd hooted.

ahah

by Pujols on Sep 27, 2007 8:03 PM EDT reply actions

Nice piece of pitching ...

that inning by Joel..

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 8:16 PM EDT reply actions

Albert's been on fire

by hannah_in_va on Sep 27, 2007 8:21 PM EDT reply actions

Yeah....

and Lud goes down right after that on three pitches...story of our season huh?

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions

nah

he's been one of the few bright spots, in my opinion.

by willievinceterry on Sep 27, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions

I was referring to ...

the situation...Not the player.. just fyi.

by Timbo02 on Sep 27, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Hurray, a pitcher that didn't waste one 0-2

Never understood the desire to waste pitches.

by DriverZn on Sep 27, 2007 8:40 PM EDT reply actions

I think he was supposed to waste them

just missed his spot.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions

yes, please walk albert

let Ludwick (of the .977 SEP OPS) hit with the bases loaded.

idiots...

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 27, 2007 8:51 PM EDT reply actions

Can someone

tell my Pedro keeps glaring at Pujols?

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 27, 2007 8:52 PM EDT reply actions

Tell me...

Sheesh.

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 27, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions

after pujols hit that foul ball 500 feet

he stood in the batters box and watched it. That's my guess.

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 27, 2007 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions

On the replay

of that shot, Albert actually ran pretty quickly out of the batters box, I thought.

Carried the bat with him a ways.

Guess Pete is easily offended.

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 27, 2007 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Tell me why...

Apparently, I should've started drinking earlier tonight...

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 27, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions

is spiezio sick?

i wonder why he hasn't been in the lineup the last couple of days (over cairo).

by willievinceterry on Sep 27, 2007 8:59 PM EDT reply actions

Thanks

for the extreme closeup of Beltran's ear mole, SNY.

Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 27, 2007 9:00 PM EDT reply actions

gross

that's apparently one advantage of using gameday/gamecast.

by willievinceterry on Sep 27, 2007 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions

a perfect example

last month ludwick swings at that 2-2 and 3-2 pitch. he's really, really improved the plate discipline; I can't wait to see what he does next year.

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 27, 2007 9:06 PM EDT reply actions

next month:

work on base running.

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 27, 2007 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions

lol, I think we need a workshop on that

I can't believe how many have been caught like that lately--

Pujols, Yadi, Ryan, Ludwick. I might be forgetting some.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Eckstein

Eck is playing great D but two very close calls at 1st that shouldn't have been as close.

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 9:17 PM EDT reply actions

Pineiro loud outs

must be a thing of the past

Through 8IP 15-3 GO-AO ratio with 6SO

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 9:21 PM EDT reply actions

He looked great tonight

I'm betting he opts out of his option, though. How much is he likely to ask for?

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 28, 2007 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions

anyone know

if their gunna let piniero pitch the 9th. im watching via gameday and it doesn't say.

thanks!

23 homers 71 rbis, yeah, albert's having an off year

by PujolsFan4Life5 on Sep 27, 2007 9:23 PM EDT reply actions

Quick poll: Pulling Pineiro

What does everyone think of Tony's decision to pull Pineiro in the top of the ninth?

500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2007 9:26 PM EDT reply actions

I dont understand...

unless he admitted to tony he is gassed.

by FunkeeC on Sep 27, 2007 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions

I wish he had left Jo-el in to get the CG

Just remember -- if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off

by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 27, 2007 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions

me too

I was listening on the radio because my area is blacked out but he sounded like he was still going strong.

But maybe they didn't want to draw anymore attention to his strong start and get more competition in signing him.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Seems like a good call

Since Pinero hasn't been a starter for most of the year. No need to press your luck hoping he doesn't run out of gas.

Izzy shoudl be able to get it done.

by DriverZn on Sep 27, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Pad stats

Izzy is up for the DHL delivery man (fan award but still) so it would help to get a few more saves, I think this is a pad the saves call

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Forgot about that

very good point. I bet that was a factor.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions

my thoughts

I didn't see most of the game, but when he is dominating and only thrown 93 pitches, it seems like a bad idea. <knock-on-wood>

500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions

i'd let him start the 9th

but i'm ok with Izzy

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Sep 27, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Leave him in

Although I do recognize that the fact it's the top of the order makes it a better decision.

by hannah_in_va on Sep 27, 2007 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions

and that's a winner

good job guys-

Just remember -- if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off

by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 27, 2007 9:32 PM EDT reply actions

who are those teams playing?

nice win, folks!

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Sep 27, 2007 9:34 PM EDT reply actions

Strange to get

one of our best-pitched games of the year at this point in the season. But I have to say I kind of like this spoiler role. Let's screw up some more playoff scenarios!

by jfs on Sep 27, 2007 9:34 PM EDT reply actions

Ha ha

They're going crazy in Philly.

by hannah_in_va on Sep 27, 2007 9:34 PM EDT reply actions

6-4

Lead off man got a home run in the top of the 9th, 1 out Diaz and a PH due up for the braves

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Winner, that's a.

500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 27, 2007 9:39 PM EDT reply actions

Spoilers

Two nights, two stings. The best you can do in September when you're not in it.

So who is going to back-in to the playoffs this year? Every single team in the NL. They're all trying to do it the way of the Cards in '06.

Play Roy Hobbs Everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 27, 2007 9:40 PM EDT reply actions

Who from last year will be back?

so far only the Yanks will be back from last year, Padres and Mets still could but man what a turnover

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Rockies arent backing in...

they are kicking down the effing door.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 27, 2007 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Philly wins

Tie in NL East

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions

A dream come true

after that bogus rainout, I said to my husband i hope we knock them out of contention in that makeup game.

Of course, I was hoping we would have already won the division by this time.

Oh well, one out of two isn't bad.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 9:49 PM EDT reply actions

Wow!

Great game, Joel P. Way to come up big at the perfect time. A victory against the Mets ALWAYS feels sweet.

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Sep 27, 2007 9:53 PM EDT reply actions

Handing Pedro his first loss

is pretty good too. But shuting them out at Shea in late September. Priceless!

Play Roy Hobbs Everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Sep 27, 2007 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions

I say resign Piniero on the plane

and offer him enough money to get that done. He pitches, he fields, he can't hit (oh well).

Piniero said in the aftergame show that he pitched as though he might not start again. And, as he always does, he thanked the Cards for giving him a chance to start again.

Maybe we have more talent close to home than we thought. Thompson, Welleymeyer, and Piniero have all given us quality games to watch and be proud of, even though we're out of the race. Thanks guys for stopping the slaughter.

And thanks Ned for giving us a kick in the pants.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 9:57 PM EDT reply actions

Thompson, Wellemeyer and Pineiro are

all fringy starters. If we filled our rotation next year with them ... well you could expect another year like this one. There's very little (if any) evidence that points to a member of that troika being an average pitcher next year.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Pineiro as a starter

is 60-58 with a 4.57 ERA. That's almost by definition, average.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions

come on Hardcore

W/L and era. Really? That's perhaps the worst stats to predict whether Pineiro is going to be a average starter next year. He's inducing fewer groundballs, has never struck out very many batters, is stranding a ton of baserunners (which is luck) and has been home run prone this year.

All of his peripherals (short of his BB rate in STL) are that of a back end below average starter.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions

08

Of our options you have to expect that Mgt is expecting Mulder to fill out a rotation slot. I expect him to implode after 5-10 starts and return to the DL.

That said I am ok calling Pinero our #5 and Thompson the #6 / Mulder insurance policy. I do not want to see Wellemeyer starting. That leaves:

#1 Wainwright
#2 Mulder
#3 ???
#4 Looper
#5 Pinero
#6 Thompson (Expect ~20gs after Mulder goes back to the DL)

by DriverZn on Sep 27, 2007 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions

ugh

that's a ghastly rotation. Until this team is committed to developing pitching that's the kind of crap we're going to have to deal with.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 28, 2007 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions

And weren't we talking about spending

a lot of money earlier today for players who could easily be "average" pitchers for us next year?

I'd rather go with someone who we know works well with Duncan and who works efficiently and confidently from the mound.

Plus, I do think we should look back to Piniero's successful starts in Seattle. He seems like a reclamation project that Dunc can succeed with.

This isn't addressed to you HL because I know you want to resign Joel. I just happened to hit your reply post.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Pineiro hasn't had a successful start in Seattle

since 2003. He was awful there from 2004-06 (and that ballpark is huge). His aggregates of the last 3 years have been very bad (even when weighted to favor this year's performance). His (illusionary) success in a limited amount of time in STL is not a good reason to expect him to be an average starting pitcher in the future.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I know that, but if Dunc is working with him

better than others have since that time, we should consider what he is ultimately capable of. What is his potential talent level? TLR and Dunc think he's an easy reclamation project and believe he can return to his 2003 numbers with proper coaching and conditioning. So from their point of view, that is how I think they are looking at him (this is just from interviews I heard from TLR).

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions

seriously

..throw all your peripheral numbers out there and be negative about if that's what works for you.

But I'd give the guy a shot and see if Duncan can't make him another Suppan.

I hate it when people completely take the human element out of the game and discount their ability to make changes.

by paCardsFan on Sep 28, 2007 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions

agree

I love numbers as much as the next guy but Duncan has been able to work with pitchers before (woody) so why not let him try working with Joel? Pineiro now has a 4.33ERA on the season, baseball reference isn't updated so I don't want to take the time to figure out starts only. He also got a 15-3 Ground out to fly out ratio last night, I think he is starting to learn from Dunc so give it a chance.

by StLHugo on Sep 28, 2007 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Giving him a chance

is one thing -- I don't think anyone would complain if he's brought in as a number five -- but I don't think they can count on him being a "sure thing" for next season and someone to build the rotation around.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 28, 2007 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions

Oh I agree there

If he could pitch like he has here since being brought over, through the course of the season he'd make a nice 4-5 starter. I don't suggest they give him ace money by a long shot, but I don't suggest they let him walk either.

by paCardsFan on Sep 28, 2007 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions

You're infering my negativity. I'm just trying

to take a realistic look at his peripheral statistics that are predictors of success. I guess I have to reiterate this again since everyone always thinks that I'm some cold-hearted ass who believes that we're all robots. That's not the case. The cardinals make a lot of decisions based on the personal interaction between players and management as well as management's belief in a player to make sense.

I'm not a huge fan of making decisions based on those gut or intuitive feelings about a player making a sincere change in skillset (especially after 8 years in the league). But what I'm certainly not going to do is speculate on those personal interactions when I don't know anything about them.

The point is the Cardinals need to rebuild the better part of their rotation. It's a smart idea to fill the 5th slot with some reclamation project on a one year deal. Giving Pineiro a multi-year deal (which he could very well get in this market) and expecting him to be more than a #5 pitcher would be ill-advised.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 28, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions

I appreciate your clarifying your position

but I still don't think you understand what others are looking at in assessing Pineiro.

You are focusing on data that tends to undervalue both his most recent successes and his pre-2004 successes, as if these have no bearing on determining his predictive skillset. Other people are trying to assess what his talent potential is, not, as you say, through pure intuition or gut feeling, but by looking at his successful performances over an extended period of time.

If his most recent successes are mirrorring his pre-2004 successes, and if Duncan says he has identified specific mechanical issues that he has been able to "fix" or has started to fix, then that is not an intuitive assessment. It is an assessment that can be measured by actual performances and numbers.

by nycardfan on Sep 28, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't want to sound like an ass

because that's not my intention but evaluating Pineiro on the results of his "success" in STL is going to lead to a bad contract. I don't care if he's won 10 games with the Cardinals. His peripherals haven't changed, which means, despite better results, he's the same below average pitcher he was for the last 3 years. His most recent successes just aren't more than random variation and luck.

There are times where I think that Duncan has made real impacts on pitchers and I'm usually an advocate of filling the #5 spot in the rotation with a reclamation project but Pineiro hasn't changed as a pitcher under Duncan regardless of the anecdotal quotes that say otherwise.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 28, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions

You have a valid point, but

you still are dropping out part of my argument, and then it no longer is my argument. I'm not advocating that we assess Joel solely on his St. Louis performance, but by correlating that performance to his established performance in the past.

You are only looking at general peripherals, not his peripherals when he was an established successful player. I think the latter tells us what his potential skillset is and this is measurable over a number of years. I believe scouts are going to pay close attention to this. I know TLR and Duncan are.

We are asking different questions and getting different answers when we look at Pineiro's record. You are focusing more on the fact that he had a downturn in his career that lasted for a number of years, and thus, you are looking at the risks of having him as a pitcher. That's a legitimate question.

I'm focusing on the fact that he was successful for a number of years and I'm asking about whether his downturn was due to mechanical problems. If so, can these be fixed or have they been fixed by Duncan? Pineiro's past record along with his present record help to answer my questions.

by nycardfan on Sep 28, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Rotoworld states Pineiro's ERA as 3.96

for 11 starts with the Cards. HL, were you including tonight's game in your calculations of his ERA or are they leaving out some games?

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't want to get into an argument again

about Thompson, but he has given us numerous quality starts and has kept us competitive in most of his games. I haven't calculated his ERA for when he was solely starting, but Bernie mentioned that it was in the mid 3.00 range. I'm not arguing he's a top of rotation guy; of course he's not. But he may be able to be an effective #5 starter.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions

His ERA as a starter this year

is 4.66 (this is not a hard thing to verify) and if they wanted to pencil him in as a #5 starter, I wouldn't be horrified but the team needs to make substantial upgrades to other starting slots then.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 27, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Maybe Bernie was talking about his last 10 starts

but I'm glad you wouldn't mind him in the #5 position, as long as he keeps the ball down.

He has definitely kept us competitive. Brad had 10 starts out of 14 (real starts, not bullpen starts) where he has had 3 runs or less and 5 IP or more. After Kip and Maroth, that's attractive.

Thanks for the ERA. But we've talked about this before--I think it would be interesting to distinguish between Brad's numbers when he was a solely a starter vs. his numbers when he was both performing in the bullpen and a starter in the same week.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions

agreed

i feel that if Thompson can start regularly, he can get in a groove a have a special year. of course he also can be just average.

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Sep 27, 2007 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm concerned about Looper

I have big questions about his endurance and about his strange splits between home/away and between night/day ERA's. Those huge splits are troubling. He makes me nervous.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Joel's gamescore of 81

matches Kippers from his second start of the season against Houston and Wainwright's 1-hitter againt the Royals as the Cardinals best pitched game of the year.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 27, 2007 10:01 PM EDT reply actions

Wells

Wells also had the next highest with a 80 versus Fla in July. Kip really can be great at times, I wish it was more often.

by StLHugo on Sep 27, 2007 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree, what a shame

if he had worked out with his natural skills, we would be pretty set for next year. Big sigh...

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions

earlier you said he's average

I'd say in perspective I'd take the average over Wells next year. He may not be the best option but by far he will not be the worst they could do in 08.

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Sep 27, 2007 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions

The Brewers are just choking away

any chance they have now. The Cubs can probably lose 2 of 3 at Cincy and still win the Central now.

The fans in Milwaukee will be chasing Yost out of town with loaded up bratworsts after this weekend.

by KYCards on Sep 27, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions

Run differential

We just traded places with the Pirates for worst in the league. We're now at -114; Bucs are -120.

Mildly interesting that the Mets and Phils finish up with the next worst teams, Marlins and Nationals; no big advantage there either way. If either team is a champion they ought to sweep this weekend. Go, Phils.

by Youneverknow on Sep 27, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions

LaRussa looks to be staying

with Seattle saying general manager Bill Bavasi and manager John McLaren will be back in 08.

Not many other places where Tony and Walt could go now. I guess Cincy is still possible though??

by KYCards on Sep 27, 2007 10:44 PM EDT reply actions

Ryan howard

He could easily win MVP but not team MVP? I'm sory but to me Chase Utley is huge for them..When he got hurt they looked done, and he returns and they surge..Plus a guy that they cards should have looked at WOrth has been swinging a hot bat...

Howard clears the table but as I said lastyr others always get on for this guy.

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Sep 27, 2007 11:13 PM EDT reply actions

Joel is the top performer on ESPN tonight

I guess that should be expected with shutting down the Mets.

by nycardfan on Sep 27, 2007 11:14 PM EDT reply actions

I hear that the boys are out on the town tonite -

celebrating the fact that they clinched third place! It's official.

by Urban Pawnee on Sep 27, 2007 11:52 PM EDT reply actions

I don't

know about the boys, but I was out on the town tonite--and watching our Birds f*** up the Mets was BEAUTIFUL!! Payback's a bitch, Pond Scum. HA!!

by rockin redbird on Sep 28, 2007 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions

....Viva again!

Beating Pedro and the NY Pond Scum makes my day totally, I hope Petey stays in the NL so we can beat him up next year.

That was a good game to head into the final weekend, thanks Lord for June 28th rainout or no game.

Albert needs to cross the dish X3 this weekend! Seven years went by soooo fast....

Youth movement or not, I want Carpenter, Speezio JEd and Rolen back in '08...yeah, those old guys that play the game like pros.

by cardschinmusic on Sep 28, 2007 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions

Indeed

Playing the spoiler can be fun. It was rather delicious to drop the NY Pond Scum into a tie for first place. That's for spoiling our season opening celebration! Well, trying to spoil it, because nothing else in baseball tops raising a World Series banner over YOUR stadium and handing out diamond and ruby rings to YOUR players. HA!

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 28, 2007 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions