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Game 148 Open Thread: September 16, 2007

marquis

mulder

11-8, 4.17

0-2, 12.38

Well, I had been prepared to simply ignore the Cards' recent slide for my first foray into my now-regular Sunday slot. I do want to start, though, by acknowledging what a great job Erik did in this spot for so long. He and azruavatar do tremendous work over at futureredbirds and I can't help but be impressed with their ability to put together such great stuff over there w/ the little cards and still be able to come up w/ such good stuff over here w/ the big boys. Thanks to Larry for giving me this opportunity.

As I was saying, I was just going to ignore the recent slump - my mother always told me "if you can't say anything nice...". Well, I didn't have anything nice to say. Some good things happened yesterday but we may only remember LaRussa's bizarre decision making in game 1.

But, as it turned out, it may as well have been seat cushion night in St. Louis as the Cards now have a 1 game winning streak. Even so, w/ all the bad stuff there is to discuss, I wanted to start a thread about something positive. There'll be lots of time to discuss all the other stuff. It also occurred to me that, with the constant back-and-forth about Reyes lo these 6 months, the discussion about Adam Wainwright has been conspicuously absent.

With Carp out for most of next year, Mulder coming off major arm surgery, Reyes a major question mark (at best), there are some major holes in the rotation that need to be filled. But the team won't have a ton of resources at their disposal. They'll also need a SS, plus whatever else they decide to do. So, I thought, we need to know exactly what we've got in Adam Wainwright - with Carp out, do we need a #1 or #2 for next year (thus costing upwards of $10 M)? Is Wainwright the #1 or #2 pitcher we need and we can spend a little less in the rotation so that there's more to spend on one of our other needs. What can we expect from Adam Wainwright? How good is he?

Just for perspective, Wainwright presently is the 31st best pitcher in baseball by VORP. His ERA+ is 117, RA+ is 1.21, his WARP1 is 5.8 and his WPA is 1.16 (40th best in baseball). Even so, he's kind of gone unnoticed, even by Cards' fans. Of course, we know he's our best starter but I'm not sure that many of us have come to appreciate how good Wainwright's been this year. He's only 25 years old and in his first year as a starter. At age 25, Baseball Prospectus calculates his MORP at over $17 million this year...and he's earning about $400K.

To put his season in perspective, I compared this year, Wainer's age-25 season, to that of the other really good pitchers in baseball. I compared their results, in terms of VORP, SNLVAR, WARP1, ERA+ and RA+. Most importantly, however, I compared their peripherals b/c it is BB/9, K/9, HR/9 and GB% that are most predictive of future success. I compared Wainwright to 34 other pitchers, most of whom are in the top 30 in VORP this year (a couple of the top 30 haven't had their age-25 seasons yet - Cain, Carmona). The table below displays those pitchers whose age-25 seasons were most comparable to Wainwright. The number to the right of each statistic is their rank among the 35 pitchers. I added up all the rankings and the other 8 pitchers in the table are those whose peripherals and results most closely lined up w/ Wainwright's. Wainwright's BB/9 is higher and K/9 lower than most in the group but he is close to most of those pitchers in 3 of the 4 categories.

Table 1

Year BB/9 Rank K/9 Rank HR/9 Rank GB% Rank
Smoltz 1992 2.92 22 7.84 12 0.62 8 44.8 26
Wainwright 2007 3.12 23 5.93 28 0.59 6 49.4 15
Haren 2006 1.82 2 7.10 15 1.25 29 45.4 24
Beckett 2005 2.92 21 8.36 8 0.71 10 43.9 29
Webb 2004 5.15 34 7.10 17 0.74 11 77.3 1
Burnett 2002 3.96 31 8.94 4 0.53 4 49.9 13
Schilling 1992 2.35 10 5.85 29 0.44 3 45.0 25
Penny 2003 2.57 14 6.33 23 0.96 21 52.9 10
Lackey 2004 2.72 17 6.53 22 1.00 22 53.9 9

We know, of course, that all of the people on this list have become pretty damn good pitchers. Burnett and, to a lesser degree, Penny's had some injury history but all of them are really good when healthy. What mattered most to me, however, was - how did they pitch the next year - in their age-26 year? What can we expect from Wainwright?

I should note that I removed Burnett from this group b/c he had Tommy John surgery the next year and threw all of 23 IP. Penny pitched well, was traded to the Dodgers, and promptly got hurt as well and wasn't able to finish the year, only throwing 143 IP. Since that's always a possibility (the injury, not the trade, god help us!) I left him in the comparison.

The next table includes their "results" stats from their age-26 season as well as their rank among all the pitchers in baseball. The bottom row shows the average of the stats.

Table 1

Year ERA+ RA+ Rank VORP Rank SNLVAR Rank WARP1
Smoltz 1993 112 119 31 46.8 20 5.8 23 6.1
Haren 2007 141 130 19 51.4 13 5.7 20 6.9
Beckett 2006 92 94 68 19.9 62 3.9 50 5.2
Webb 2005 124 121 22 46.2 19 5.3 24 7.8
Schilling 1993 100 103 58 29.6 47 4.8 34 4.4
Penny 2004 130 130 16 34.5 47 4.4 43 4.2
Lackey 2005 122 128 15 49.1 17 5.5 20 6.5
Average 117 118 39.6 5.1 5.9

If Wainwright's numbers were equal to the average of the numbers above, it would put him around the 30th best pitcher in baseball next year - about where he is right now. This, of course, includes Beckett's poor season and Penny's injury-shortened season (both possible). It's important to note the 4 of the 7 had excellent seasons in their age-26 season, all being among the top 20 pitchers in the game. In any case, the fact that we can compare Wainwright's age-25 season to pitchers such as Smoltz, Webb, Lackey, and Haren puts him in some pretty high cotton.

So, is Wainwright a #1 or is he really a #4 who's just a #1 by default b/c we've had the likes of Wells, Reyes, Welleymeyer, Pineiro, Maroth, et al in the rotation this year? I'm not sure he's quite a #1 but he strikes me as a legit #2 who can hold his own at the top of the rotation for the time being. If a miracle does happen and the Cards went into the playoffs this year, I'd feel pretty good w/ the wagonmaker taking the reins in game 1. He's not Carp, but he appears to be well on his way in his ascent up the rotation's ladder.

This tells me that we can build around Wainwright this offseason in the rotation. Finding a #1 doesn't need to be our foremost concern b/c we've already got one - and hopefully, two when Carp returns. The rotation lacks depth and a #2 and #3 starter - with Mulder and Looper at the end. Don't misunderstand - I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get the best starter we can. What I'm saying is that, though we need pitching, we also have other needs (SS, in particular) and shouldn't feel the need to add a true #1. In short (I know - too late), Wainwright's a damn good pitcher. On a good team, he'd start game 2 of the playoffs. If Carp were healthy and the Cards were going to the playoffs, I'd feel good w/ Wainer in game 2 against anybody - Chris Young, Tom Glavine or anybody else. He is a true top of the rotation starter and should only get better - his K/9 before the All-Star break was 5.21; after the All-Star break it's 7.63. So his peripherals are getting better - we discussed earlier in the year his unusually high BABIP but the increase in his K rate is legitimate (80 IP since the break). This team has a lot of holes but not at the top of the rotation. Barring injury, that hole will be filled for a good while!

Speaking of holes - Mulder goes today. I'm not optimistic about our chances but he needs to pitch. The Cubs have been pretty bad vs. lefties this year - 27th in baseball in OPS, 28th in OBP. Maybe we have a chance for a split. Marquis goes for the Cubs - he's 2-1 vs. the Cards this year w/ 18.2 IP, 17 H, 9 ER, 7 BB, 6 K, and 3 HR. On top of that, he's lost one in a row against us. And we're on a 1 game streak also - maybe we can keep both of those "streaks" alive.

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I was saying the other day that Wainwright looks more and more like Carp every time he pitches.  He's just got that look of determination.  Even the way he carries himself on the mound looks like Carp.  I'm okay with that.  I'm also okay with all the adjustments that Adam's made this year: after All-Star break, between starts, during the games.  I think he may end up being a #1 guy sometime in his career, for sure a #2.  Wainwright was another fine Jocketty acquisition and I'm glad he's developed so quickly because we need him.

by spants on Sep 16, 2007 2:16 AM EDT   0 recs

Thanks
I tried something like that but obviously screwed it up so I got rid of it.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 11:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Your table

Table 1
Player       Year    BB/9          K/9           HR/9          GB%    
Smoltz       1992    2.92    22    7.84    12    0.62     8    44.8    26
Wainwright   2007    3.12    23    5.93    28    0.59     6    49.4    15
Haren        2006    1.82     2    7.10    15    1.25    29    45.4    24
Beckett      2005    2.92    21    8.36    8     0.71    10    43.9    29
Webb         2004    5.15    34    7.10    17    0.74    11    77.3     1
Burnett      2002    3.96    31    8.94    4     0.53     4    49.9    13
Schilling    1992    2.35    10    5.85    29    0.44     3    45.0    25
Penny        2003    2.57    14    6.33    23    0.96    21    52.9    10
Lackey       2004    2.72    17    6.53    22    1       22    53.9     9

Table 2
Player       ERA+    RA+    VORP    SNLVAR        WARP1
Smoltz       1993    112    1.19    31    46.8    20    5.8    23    6.1
Haren        2007    141    1.30    19    51.4    13    5.7    20    6.9
Beckett      2006     92    0.94    68    19.9    62    3.9    50    5.2
Webb         2005    124    1.21    22    46.2    19    5.3    24    7.8
Schilling    1993    100    1.03    58    29.6    47    4.8    34    4.4
Penny        2004    130    1.30    16    34.5    47    4.4    43    4.2
Lackey       2005    122    1.28    15    49.1    17    5.5    20    6.5

                     

The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:48 AM EDT   0 recs

BTW
Great 1st post.  Awesome analysis and conclusions.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 1:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thats nice to see
Great 1st post HC.  0.59 hr/9...wow.  Is there a standard GB% number of what makes a successful pitcher?  Thats kind of a weird question I know....the higher the better...but is 50% good enough if your not giving up many homers?  I see Webb with 77% and think "those poor earthworms."

by brindled on Sep 16, 2007 3:24 AM EDT   0 recs

No.
There is no 'magic number', as far as GB rate goes.  Of course, you like to see a guy who has a decent rate, as it indicates he's doing a pretty good job of keeping the ball down, usually the least likely pitches to get hurt on.  However, the idea that a higher GB% is always better isn't true, whatever Dave Duncan might want everybody to believe.  

Of the three ball in play types, (GB, FB, and LD) the only one that you really want to be really concerned with is the line drive percentage.  a pitcher who gives up a high pct. of line drives is typically letting hitters square the ball up too often to be successful.  When looking at a pitcher with a high FB%, what you should look at is the pct. of those fly balls that leave the yard.  If a pitcher is inducing a lot of flyballs, but keeping them in the park, he can still be perfectly successful.  In fact, fly balls tend to have more of a depressing effect on a pitcher's BAA, as well as his overall #baserunners/9, than groundballs do.  Like I said, there isn't really a magic formula, but each type of pitcher has certain numbers you can look at to get an idea of how well he executes his own personal game plan.  

All that being said, I, personally, do tend to prefer a pitcher who gets most of his outs on the infield.  They seem to avoid big innings a little better, in general, at least anecdotally.  I'm not sure if the numbers support me or not, but that's just my personal perception.  

As far as Wainwright's percentages, though, he gets plenty of ground balls, particularly with such a good K/9 rate.  

If you don't ask me to dinner, I don't eat.

by the red baron on Sep 16, 2007 6:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I've been working on something
re: Looper's recent success that I think I'll use next Sunday if I can reach any significant conclusions. I've been charting Looper as part of the pitch-charting project and the thing that I've noticed about his recent streak of well pitched games is that his ratio of ground ball outs to actual outs has gone DOWN and his HR/9 has gone up. Sounds strange that those results would lead to success. But his BABIP has also gone down -- ground balls tend to lead to more hits b/c grounders find holes whereas fly balls to left don't. So I think you're right red, as long as the pitcher's able to avoid walking people and keep the ball in the park at a reasonable rate, fly balls are OK and may even be preferable to ground balls. The bottom line is (with ground balls) -- it depends on a team's defense and park factor w/ regard to homers. You probably want more of a ground ball pitcher in a park that yields a lot of homers than you do in one that doesn't.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 11:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not very good with the stats end of things...
(why am I here-because I'm TRYING to understand it all better) But Ted Lilly might be one to look at too.  He is a fly ball pitcher in a home run park and it just seems that the walk totals (low) and stike out totals (healthy rate) will minimize the damage of home runs. He has been a quite a pick up for the Cubs.  
 Not to mention that fly balls caught at the warning track have got to be demoralizing to the batter who sees it as "almost" getting it done.  

by jillsinmo on Sep 16, 2007 11:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Definitely
very low GB rate, very good year -- 29th in VORP I think. Earlier in the year I think some of us were surprised the Cards didn't seem to have any interest over the offseason. I think we know why.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 11:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nice post, Houston.
And, hopefully, congrats on the first of a great many Sunday posts. One of the guys above already posted about the hyperlink thing, thus robbing me of one of the very few things in life I'm actually capable of helping someone out with.  (I will add, though, that I can change a mean tire.  Beyond those two, not so much.)  

I agree with you, that the top of the Cards' rotation for next year doesn't look like the most pressing need.  I think Adam is capable of doing a very nice job anchoring the staff.  To me, the middle infield is a much more pressing concern, followed by trying to add depth to the rotation, in the middle to back end type of guys.  (I may need to find a better way to put that, than 'back end type guys'.  Too easy to misinterpret.)  I love that Wainwright has managed to get his K/9 rate into such good shape, despite pitching within a system/philosophy that tends to devalue the ability to miss bats.  

Again, welcome to Sundays.  

If you don't ask me to dinner, I don't eat.

by the red baron on Sep 16, 2007 6:07 AM EDT   0 recs

Agree with the others
Good first post.  Thank you for a positive subject, there will be plenty of time to talk about the not-so-positive soon enough.  Got to say that I was thinking about this very subject last night - how well Adam has done in his first season as a starter.  Considering the time it takes some guys to "grow" into being a big-league pitcher and how nicely Adam has adjusted and developed this year, I wonder if #1 is out of his reach.  Time will tell, but I see good things in his future and, therefore, the Cards' future.  

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 16, 2007 9:35 AM EDT   0 recs

Great first post
Here is hoping Adam stays away from dreaded arm troubles and is able to become the great pitcher Matt Morris never realized.

With the Cardinals season cooked, those player have to have an awful feeling this morning going to the ballpark realizing that if not for 2 bullpen meltdowns (Izzy and Franklin), they'd be 2 games out of 1st place.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 9:43 AM EDT   0 recs

Agreed, Hardcore.
Also, hopefully, he won't get run into the ground like Morris did.  Matt Morris's career path should be proof to anyone who didn't learn the lesson of Dizzy Dean, that when a pitcher has a leg injury, it's much better to just sit him down, regardless of how much you want to win a game in the middle of the summer.  A guy gets hurt, don't send him back out on the mound.  It's going to end badly.  
If you don't ask me to dinner, I don't eat.

by the red baron on Sep 16, 2007 11:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nice first post, houston.
And props for finding something positive for us to ponder in an otherwise disappointing/unfortunate season on and off the field.

by AndyB83 on Sep 16, 2007 10:56 AM EDT   0 recs

story about last night
short story from a first-time poster: i got married last night in chicago; we wrote our vows for this.  my wife, who is not a sports fan but who knows i love the cardinals, said "i vow to always root for the cardinals and never for the cubbies."  whatever it takes to break a losing streak.  go cards.

by cumby on Sep 16, 2007 11:18 AM EDT   0 recs

Congrats, cumby
and welcome to your new 2nd home. BTW, does your wife know that you're on the computer this morning? Now that's love -- hold on to her!

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 11:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thanks
she knows.  i'm a lucky man.  go cards.

by cumby on Sep 16, 2007 11:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is it really possible to have
too many #1 starters?  I have my doubts.  Regardless of Wainer's progress and (we hope) Carp's comeback, I'd love to add another stud starter to the top of our list.  Why not think big?
"We're sniffing the winning situation."

by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 16, 2007 11:20 AM EDT   0 recs

Too many #1s
I'd love to have about 7 of them but, financially, it's not going to be feasible. There just isn't that much $$$ to play with. The Cards will likely pick up Izzy's option or extend him at a salary near what his option will cost. They still have Edmonds, Rolen, and Juan on the payroll. Mulder and Looper will be our #4 and #5 (or #3 and #5 if we're lucky) and earn about $12M between them. There just won't be that much dough with which to work. And we'll need a SS to go along w/ at least 2 starters. The point was -- how much $$$ do we need to pour into the rotation and how much will we be free to spend elsewhere? My point was, w/ Wainwright establishing him as a strong #2, we don't need to spend a lot of coin (and prospects?) to try to find a #1. If we can find one for medium $, a dubious proposition, great. But we don't NEED to use all our available cash to try and find one.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 11:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

On the other hand, if you try to
stockpile a few, which I think would be wise in case Mulder doesn't bounce back and Carpenter isn't really ready until 2009, then if all goes well, you have some wonderful trade bait to use just when the teams in contention start looking for it.  Win-win either way.  Teams desperate for starting pitching have been known to sell the farm, no?  There really aren't any 1-2 free agent pitchers on the market anyway this year, except maybe Petitte, and he wants to go back to the Yankees.  As good as Izzy has been, I'd rather they just go for one year at a time with him because of age and health issues.  

by jillsinmo on Sep 16, 2007 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i don't think there are even
any available #1 pitchers to stockpile. it's hard envisioning any #2 or even #3 pitchers out there that could be stockpiled this offseason, at least via free agency.

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 1:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

is there insurance for juan
if he is not able to play? i don't mean to sound callous -- i liked juan and obviously the most important concerns are his vision and his health, much more so than whether he can play next year. that said, i am still curious how that works...

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 1:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Today's pitching matchup
is a prime example of the team's off-season planning.

The discarded, flaky healthy arm
vs
The injured, former dominant pitching ace

The Cardinals tempted fate that Mulder would be back at this point and being able to pitch better than the likes of Jason Marquis.

Will he today?  Likely not.  Will Tony even give Mulder the 'A+' lineup to back him up? Likely not.

Will Miguel Cairo start at 1st base and bat 3rd?  Possibly.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 11:24 AM EDT   0 recs

Here's the lineup
that roughed up Marquis back on July 26 -- just about 6 weeks ago Eckstein Edmonds Pujols Duncan Encarnacion Rolen Molina Miles Looper Beside the fact that we're now batting the pitcher 8th -- 4 of those have been hurt and 3 are (supposedly) out for the year. At least I thought Duncan was until Tony stepped on his chopper yesterday by pinch-hitting Ankiel for Ludwick, thus bringing about Duncan's AB in the 9th. If you're looking for the A+ lineup, look in Paletta's office.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 11:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

True
but what I would consider the 'A+ lineup' these days would be:

Ryan SS
Ankiel RF
Pujols 1B
Edmonds CF
Ludwick LF
Molina C
Branyan/Barden 3B
Mulder P
Miles 2B

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 11:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wainwright's season has been a
bright spot.  No reason he can't keep it up that I can see.....
Now for some more positive news, I give you the "Pedro Report"  Martinez has been one of my favorite players for a long time and he pitched in his 3rd start since rotator cuff surgery.....his line
6 innings, 7 hits, 1 earned run, 0BB 9K's, 98 pitches.  That was against the Phillies.  He got a no decision.  His ERA since returning is 1.69. I have never seen a player enjoy his time at the park more than him and I'm glad I'll get to see him pitch again.

by jillsinmo on Sep 16, 2007 12:06 PM EDT   0 recs

What's most promising
Is that Wainwright's ERA has lowered each month this season (until Sept).

ERA By Month
March/April:6.12
May: 5.00
June: 3.69
July: 3.09
August: 2.00
September: 2.41

First Half: 4.66
Second Half: 2.49

Does his overall season make him a #1 starter?  Probably not.  It shows him as a great 2 or 3.  However, his second half shows him as a #1, thats for sure.  If he can keep his second half form, he will be dominant next year.

by Quel on Sep 16, 2007 12:34 PM EDT   0 recs

I gave up on this team making the playoffs
and the likelihood of it happening is Slim and None, Slim is on vacation.

However, I guess it was eating my morning Cap'N Crunch that I realized: "We're chasing the &%&%#@) Cubs".

With a win today, 5 games out is still a tall mountain to climb barefoot.  Yet, I'll tell you what...if there was ever a team to go on a huge losing streak to close out the season, it's the Cubs.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 12:37 PM EDT   0 recs

HoustonCard
nice to see another fan in exile in the catbird seat, HC!

by hawaiifan on Sep 16, 2007 12:51 PM EDT   0 recs

Lineups per Yahoo!
Chi Cubs
Mr. Japan lf
M. DeRosa 2b
D. Lee 1b
Crybaby 3b
Ginger rf
Eckstein's bitch cf
G. Soto c
R. Cedeno ss
Betty p

St. Louis
Super Mario 2b
Roy Hobbs rf
A. Pujols 1b
J. Edwards cf
R. Ludwick lf
Sand Frog 3b
Y. Molina c
M. Mulder p
B. Ryan ss

I hope we drill Ramirez twice today.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 1:03 PM EDT   0 recs

WOW!!
No Cairo today.  I guess TLR is serious about winning on this glorious 10 Run Sunday.

by champion on Sep 16, 2007 1:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

One complaint.
When people make up these strange nicknames can you put the rean name next to them or something.

Super Mario = ?
Sand Frog = ?

by DriverZn on Sep 16, 2007 1:11 PM EDT   0 recs

super mario = aaron miles?
short, stocky, facial hair... and he plays 2b.
as for sand frog, i have no idea what that means.

by mattybobo on Sep 16, 2007 1:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

spiezio
plays (or played) in a band called sandfrog, or sand frog, one of the two.

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 1:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Aaron Miles *is* Super Mario
There is no doubt in my mind.  He should wear overalls when he plays.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 2:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thank you
that is now my cell phone wallpaper. excellent work.

by lopey986 on Sep 16, 2007 2:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This
made me laugh uncontrollably out loud!

Thanks for that, I needed it.

Dont give up boys!

by yer dog first on Sep 16, 2007 3:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Great first post houstoncardinal
Thanks for being so informative and positive as we look towards the future.  

I also had a question similar to Quel's above.  Because Wainwright's first couple of months were negatively influenced by his pitching with a sore, tired, or slightly injured arm (depending on the source), does the whole season offer a good predictive value for his future?  

I would be interested in a similar analysis of Wainwright's pitching after his LA meltdown.  I believe it's at that point, or a couple of games later, that he said his arm had gotten back to normal.

For some players at least, it seems like context would be important to be taken into account.  Injuries could easily distort predictive value.  But I would think that for groundball pitchers, the defensive capabilities of their team could also factor in.  What park they play in would also seem like it would be important--size, altitude, shape, hills in the middle of the outfield, etc. would seem like they would influence particular stats and make some comparisons across teams problematic.

Anyway, very interesting post.  I'm really looking forward to your analysis of Looper's pitching as well.

by nycardfan on Sep 16, 2007 1:34 PM EDT   0 recs

It seems to me
that the numbers since his LA start are more predictive of his peak form since all pitchers are likely to have their seasons go in cycles. As it turns out, most of his "downs" were in the first few weeks of the season. He's only had 2 bad starts since that game in LA -- giving up 6 ER to the Cubs on 7/25 and 5 ER to the Reds on 6/30. Still, those bad starts early in the season count and no pitcher is immune from them. Additionally, it's likely that all the other pitchers to whom I compared Adam in their age 25 seasons had bad cycles, similar to the one Adam had at the beginning of the season. I'm sure that Haren, Lackey, Webb, et al all had periods of ineffectiveness/dead arm/whatever Adam was going through. So if we're going to compare Adam's age-25 seasons to those of the other pitchers, we have to take the bitter with the sweet. I think the period since then, as I said, does reflect his peak and gives us reason to think that his ability is that of a #1, rather than a 1 1/2. But, as good as his peripherals have been this year, they're a bit short of those posted by some others during their age-25 seasons: Sheets, Halladay, Sabathia, Santana, and Oswalt so I'd be hesitant about saying that he's quite in their league, or will be next year.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 3:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

BTW
I forgot to include his periphs since that start in LA --

BB/9:  2.67
K/9:  6.13

You're right, much better than overall.  Still, if you're going to compare those pitchers correctly, you have take the entire thing, not cherry-pick the numbers you prefer.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 3:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for calculating that
and getting it to me so fast.  Thanks also for the explanation.  As always, it's interesting.  

I wouldn't characterize adjusting for context--especially if you are looking at an injury related downturn--as cherry picking, but I understand why you see it this way.  

I agree if someone is simply choosing the best numbers out of a season, that would be cherry-picking and nonsensical  But if a downturn is related to a physical injury or impairment that may not be repeated the following year(s), then your predictive value could be quite off.  I'm sure scouts take specific contexts into account when they are assessing someone's potential talent.

Because people play in concrete situations and not in the abstract, it seems like there should be some way to make predictive adjustments for specific performance distorting circumstances.

by nycardfan on Sep 16, 2007 5:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Completely off topic but
Has anyone heard how Mr. Encarnacion is doing?  I feel his story has been lost in the midst of the now extinct losing streak.

by brindled on Sep 16, 2007 1:38 PM EDT   0 recs

I agree
TLR said this morning that he has regained some sight but it's too early to know whether he will get his full vision back.  But it is great news to know that he did not lose sight in that injured eye.  He still has a lot of swelling that needs to come down.  And the eye is generally traumatized.  They are waiting for it to stabilize before they perform surgery on the fractures.

by nycardfan on Sep 16, 2007 1:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks
Glad to hear he isnt blind.

by brindled on Sep 16, 2007 1:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Has anyone noticed that our regular
shorstop is injured AGAIN?  They really need to decide if they are going to commit to trying Ryan there next year or signing/trading for someone we can count on to be ready to go most of the time......

by jillsinmo on Sep 16, 2007 1:43 PM EDT   0 recs

I wouldn't mind Renteria coming back
But it's probably smarter just to go with Ryan and spend the money on pitching. Who knows what they'll actually do.

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 1:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd like to keep Ryan at SS
and get a really good player at second base.

by nycardfan on Sep 16, 2007 1:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I have and I'm glad
it needs to be made abundantly clear to our front office that we need a new SS next year.  Hopefully his inability to play more than 130 or so games tells them what we all know.

by chuckb on Sep 16, 2007 3:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Besides all the injuries
he seems to take a long time to get back to having good at-bats after he's injured.  That needs to be considered in terms of how much he's been unavailable to us.

by nycardfan on Sep 16, 2007 7:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mulder living at 89
threw the sinker (splitter..which is it?) at 88.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 2:17 PM EDT   0 recs

Every batter he gets out
is a small victory.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Throw a strike
Agent Mulder.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:22 PM EDT   0 recs

how is mulder looking
were the outs hard-hit? was he merely lucky to escape?

i agree that every out (and every scoreless inning) is a small victory. i really hope he can hang in for 5 (even 6) today and give up no more than 3 runs.

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 2:24 PM EDT   0 recs

I only saw the third out
It was a high (fastball, I assume) that the hitter chased for a pop out.  His velocity was in the high 80s to low 90s I think.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

After that inning, I am not exactly impressed
but it still a small sample size.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

RBIs 93 and 94 would be sweet
right about now.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Rick might have hurt his left hand...
didn't look good
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT   0 recs

how?
i'm following on gameday/internet radio.

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 2:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rick but his hands out
as his slide on his front side.  He looked like he might have twisted his wrist a bit.  Hopefuly my concern is unfounded.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ruthless efficiency
from the marquis de sade. 15 pitches, 6 outs, 2k's. where was this guy last year?

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 2:40 PM EDT   0 recs

hah
he was there occasionally, but his bad starts greatly outweighed his good ones. (see: kip wells)

by lopey986 on Sep 16, 2007 2:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Marquis strikes me as the kind of athlete
that you don't coach.  You have to let him make mistakes and learn on his own terms.  I don't think that jived well in Atlanta or St. Louis.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe...
Reyes should make his way to Chicago too?

by lopey986 on Sep 16, 2007 2:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually, I was thinking along the same line,
but not nessesarily Chicago.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the thing with st louis...
if Reyes were our 5th starter in 04, they probably would've just let him go out and do his thing because the team was so dominant that they could afford to suffer through the growing pains. The past 2 years this team has barely been hangin on and they need a quality start every time out and i believe that is why there has been so little patience with Reyes.

by lopey986 on Sep 16, 2007 2:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

'04?
do you mean '05?

i think it's the other way around this year, though. they've been more patient than most teams would be, and he has been reinserted into the rotation a couple of times due to a lack of better options at the time.

by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 2:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs