Game 148 Open Thread: September 16, 2007
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11-8, 4.17 |
0-2, 12.38 |
Well, I had been prepared to simply ignore the Cards' recent slide for my first foray into my now-regular Sunday slot. I do want to start, though, by acknowledging what a great job Erik did in this spot for so long. He and azruavatar do tremendous work over at futureredbirds and I can't help but be impressed with their ability to put together such great stuff over there w/ the little cards and still be able to come up w/ such good stuff over here w/ the big boys. Thanks to Larry for giving me this opportunity.
As I was saying, I was just going to ignore the recent slump - my mother always told me "if you can't say anything nice...". Well, I didn't have anything nice to say. Some good things happened yesterday but we may only remember LaRussa's bizarre decision making in game 1.
But, as it turned out, it may as well have been seat cushion night in St. Louis as the Cards now have a 1 game winning streak. Even so, w/ all the bad stuff there is to discuss, I wanted to start a thread about something positive. There'll be lots of time to discuss all the other stuff. It also occurred to me that, with the constant back-and-forth about Reyes lo these 6 months, the discussion about Adam Wainwright has been conspicuously absent.
With Carp out for most of next year, Mulder coming off major arm surgery, Reyes a major question mark (at best), there are some major holes in the rotation that need to be filled. But the team won't have a ton of resources at their disposal. They'll also need a SS, plus whatever else they decide to do. So, I thought, we need to know exactly what we've got in Adam Wainwright - with Carp out, do we need a #1 or #2 for next year (thus costing upwards of $10 M)? Is Wainwright the #1 or #2 pitcher we need and we can spend a little less in the rotation so that there's more to spend on one of our other needs. What can we expect from Adam Wainwright? How good is he?
Just for perspective, Wainwright presently is the 31st best pitcher in baseball by VORP. His ERA+ is 117, RA+ is 1.21, his WARP1 is 5.8 and his WPA is 1.16 (40th best in baseball). Even so, he's kind of gone unnoticed, even by Cards' fans. Of course, we know he's our best starter but I'm not sure that many of us have come to appreciate how good Wainwright's been this year. He's only 25 years old and in his first year as a starter. At age 25, Baseball Prospectus calculates his MORP at over $17 million this year...and he's earning about $400K.
To put his season in perspective, I compared this year, Wainer's age-25 season, to that of the other really good pitchers in baseball. I compared their results, in terms of VORP, SNLVAR, WARP1, ERA+ and RA+. Most importantly, however, I compared their peripherals b/c it is BB/9, K/9, HR/9 and GB% that are most predictive of future success. I compared Wainwright to 34 other pitchers, most of whom are in the top 30 in VORP this year (a couple of the top 30 haven't had their age-25 seasons yet - Cain, Carmona). The table below displays those pitchers whose age-25 seasons were most comparable to Wainwright. The number to the right of each statistic is their rank among the 35 pitchers. I added up all the rankings and the other 8 pitchers in the table are those whose peripherals and results most closely lined up w/ Wainwright's. Wainwright's BB/9 is higher and K/9 lower than most in the group but he is close to most of those pitchers in 3 of the 4 categories.
Table 1
| Year | BB/9 | Rank | K/9 | Rank | HR/9 | Rank | GB% | Rank | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Smoltz | 1992 | 2.92 | 22 | 7.84 | 12 | 0.62 | 8 | 44.8 | 26 |
| Wainwright | 2007 | 3.12 | 23 | 5.93 | 28 | 0.59 | 6 | 49.4 | 15 |
| Haren | 2006 | 1.82 | 2 | 7.10 | 15 | 1.25 | 29 | 45.4 | 24 |
| Beckett | 2005 | 2.92 | 21 | 8.36 | 8 | 0.71 | 10 | 43.9 | 29 |
| Webb | 2004 | 5.15 | 34 | 7.10 | 17 | 0.74 | 11 | 77.3 | 1 |
| Burnett | 2002 | 3.96 | 31 | 8.94 | 4 | 0.53 | 4 | 49.9 | 13 |
| Schilling | 1992 | 2.35 | 10 | 5.85 | 29 | 0.44 | 3 | 45.0 | 25 |
| Penny | 2003 | 2.57 | 14 | 6.33 | 23 | 0.96 | 21 | 52.9 | 10 |
| Lackey | 2004 | 2.72 | 17 | 6.53 | 22 | 1.00 | 22 | 53.9 | 9 |
We know, of course, that all of the people on this list have become pretty damn good pitchers. Burnett and, to a lesser degree, Penny's had some injury history but all of them are really good when healthy. What mattered most to me, however, was - how did they pitch the next year - in their age-26 year? What can we expect from Wainwright?
I should note that I removed Burnett from this group b/c he had Tommy John surgery the next year and threw all of 23 IP. Penny pitched well, was traded to the Dodgers, and promptly got hurt as well and wasn't able to finish the year, only throwing 143 IP. Since that's always a possibility (the injury, not the trade, god help us!) I left him in the comparison.
The next table includes their "results" stats from their age-26 season as well as their rank among all the pitchers in baseball. The bottom row shows the average of the stats.
Table 1
| Year | ERA+ | RA+ | Rank | VORP | Rank | SNLVAR | Rank | WARP1 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Smoltz | 1993 | 112 | 119 | 31 | 46.8 | 20 | 5.8 | 23 | 6.1 |
| Haren | 2007 | 141 | 130 | 19 | 51.4 | 13 | 5.7 | 20 | 6.9 |
| Beckett | 2006 | 92 | 94 | 68 | 19.9 | 62 | 3.9 | 50 | 5.2 |
| Webb | 2005 | 124 | 121 | 22 | 46.2 | 19 | 5.3 | 24 | 7.8 |
| Schilling | 1993 | 100 | 103 | 58 | 29.6 | 47 | 4.8 | 34 | 4.4 |
| Penny | 2004 | 130 | 130 | 16 | 34.5 | 47 | 4.4 | 43 | 4.2 |
| Lackey | 2005 | 122 | 128 | 15 | 49.1 | 17 | 5.5 | 20 | 6.5 |
| Average | 117 | 118 | 39.6 | 5.1 | 5.9 |
If Wainwright's numbers were equal to the average of the numbers above, it would put him around the 30th best pitcher in baseball next year - about where he is right now. This, of course, includes Beckett's poor season and Penny's injury-shortened season (both possible). It's important to note the 4 of the 7 had excellent seasons in their age-26 season, all being among the top 20 pitchers in the game. In any case, the fact that we can compare Wainwright's age-25 season to pitchers such as Smoltz, Webb, Lackey, and Haren puts him in some pretty high cotton.
So, is Wainwright a #1 or is he really a #4 who's just a #1 by default b/c we've had the likes of Wells, Reyes, Welleymeyer, Pineiro, Maroth, et al in the rotation this year? I'm not sure he's quite a #1 but he strikes me as a legit #2 who can hold his own at the top of the rotation for the time being. If a miracle does happen and the Cards went into the playoffs this year, I'd feel pretty good w/ the wagonmaker taking the reins in game 1. He's not Carp, but he appears to be well on his way in his ascent up the rotation's ladder.
This tells me that we can build around Wainwright this offseason in the rotation. Finding a #1 doesn't need to be our foremost concern b/c we've already got one - and hopefully, two when Carp returns. The rotation lacks depth and a #2 and #3 starter - with Mulder and Looper at the end. Don't misunderstand - I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get the best starter we can. What I'm saying is that, though we need pitching, we also have other needs (SS, in particular) and shouldn't feel the need to add a true #1. In short (I know - too late), Wainwright's a damn good pitcher. On a good team, he'd start game 2 of the playoffs. If Carp were healthy and the Cards were going to the playoffs, I'd feel good w/ Wainer in game 2 against anybody - Chris Young, Tom Glavine or anybody else. He is a true top of the rotation starter and should only get better - his K/9 before the All-Star break was 5.21; after the All-Star break it's 7.63. So his peripherals are getting better - we discussed earlier in the year his unusually high BABIP but the increase in his K rate is legitimate (80 IP since the break). This team has a lot of holes but not at the top of the rotation. Barring injury, that hole will be filled for a good while!
Speaking of holes - Mulder goes today. I'm not optimistic about our chances but he needs to pitch. The Cubs have been pretty bad vs. lefties this year - 27th in baseball in OPS, 28th in OBP. Maybe we have a chance for a split. Marquis goes for the Cubs - he's 2-1 vs. the Cards this year w/ 18.2 IP, 17 H, 9 ER, 7 BB, 6 K, and 3 HR. On top of that, he's lost one in a row against us. And we're on a 1 game streak also - maybe we can keep both of those "streaks" alive.
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I was saying the other day that Wainwright looks more and more like Carp every time he pitches. He's just got that look of determination. Even the way he carries himself on the mound looks like Carp. I'm okay with that. I'm also okay with all the adjustments that Adam's made this year: after All-Star break, between starts, during the games. I think he may end up being a #1 guy sometime in his career, for sure a #2. Wainwright was another fine Jocketty acquisition and I'm glad he's developed so quickly because we need him.
by spants on Sep 16, 2007 2:16 AM EDT 0 recs
Thanks
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 11:13 AM EDT
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Your table
Table 1
Player Year BB/9 K/9 HR/9 GB%
Smoltz 1992 2.92 22 7.84 12 0.62 8 44.8 26
Wainwright 2007 3.12 23 5.93 28 0.59 6 49.4 15
Haren 2006 1.82 2 7.10 15 1.25 29 45.4 24
Beckett 2005 2.92 21 8.36 8 0.71 10 43.9 29
Webb 2004 5.15 34 7.10 17 0.74 11 77.3 1
Burnett 2002 3.96 31 8.94 4 0.53 4 49.9 13
Schilling 1992 2.35 10 5.85 29 0.44 3 45.0 25
Penny 2003 2.57 14 6.33 23 0.96 21 52.9 10
Lackey 2004 2.72 17 6.53 22 1 22 53.9 9
Table 2
Player ERA+ RA+ VORP SNLVAR WARP1
Smoltz 1993 112 1.19 31 46.8 20 5.8 23 6.1
Haren 2007 141 1.30 19 51.4 13 5.7 20 6.9
Beckett 2006 92 0.94 68 19.9 62 3.9 50 5.2
Webb 2005 124 1.21 22 46.2 19 5.3 24 7.8
Schilling 1993 100 1.03 58 29.6 47 4.8 34 4.4
Penny 2004 130 1.30 16 34.5 47 4.4 43 4.2
Lackey 2005 122 1.28 15 49.1 17 5.5 20 6.5
by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:48 AM EDT 0 recs
BTW
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 1:48 PM EDT
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Thats nice to see
by brindled on Sep 16, 2007 3:24 AM EDT 0 recs
No.
Of the three ball in play types, (GB, FB, and LD) the only one that you really want to be really concerned with is the line drive percentage. a pitcher who gives up a high pct. of line drives is typically letting hitters square the ball up too often to be successful. When looking at a pitcher with a high FB%, what you should look at is the pct. of those fly balls that leave the yard. If a pitcher is inducing a lot of flyballs, but keeping them in the park, he can still be perfectly successful. In fact, fly balls tend to have more of a depressing effect on a pitcher's BAA, as well as his overall #baserunners/9, than groundballs do. Like I said, there isn't really a magic formula, but each type of pitcher has certain numbers you can look at to get an idea of how well he executes his own personal game plan.
All that being said, I, personally, do tend to prefer a pitcher who gets most of his outs on the infield. They seem to avoid big innings a little better, in general, at least anecdotally. I'm not sure if the numbers support me or not, but that's just my personal perception.
As far as Wainwright's percentages, though, he gets plenty of ground balls, particularly with such a good K/9 rate.
by the red baron on
Sep 16, 2007 6:22 AM EDT
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I've been working on something
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 11:19 AM EDT
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I'm not very good with the stats end of things...
Not to mention that fly balls caught at the warning track have got to be demoralizing to the batter who sees it as "almost" getting it done.
by jillsinmo on
Sep 16, 2007 11:48 AM EDT
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Definitely
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 11:59 AM EDT
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Nice post, Houston.
I agree with you, that the top of the Cards' rotation for next year doesn't look like the most pressing need. I think Adam is capable of doing a very nice job anchoring the staff. To me, the middle infield is a much more pressing concern, followed by trying to add depth to the rotation, in the middle to back end type of guys. (I may need to find a better way to put that, than 'back end type guys'. Too easy to misinterpret.) I love that Wainwright has managed to get his K/9 rate into such good shape, despite pitching within a system/philosophy that tends to devalue the ability to miss bats.
Again, welcome to Sundays.
by the red baron on Sep 16, 2007 6:07 AM EDT 0 recs
Agree with the others
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 16, 2007 9:35 AM EDT 0 recs
Great first post
With the Cardinals season cooked, those player have to have an awful feeling this morning going to the ballpark realizing that if not for 2 bullpen meltdowns (Izzy and Franklin), they'd be 2 games out of 1st place.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 9:43 AM EDT 0 recs
Agreed, Hardcore.
by the red baron on
Sep 16, 2007 11:41 AM EDT
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Nice first post, houston.
by AndyB83 on Sep 16, 2007 10:56 AM EDT 0 recs
story about last night
by cumby on Sep 16, 2007 11:18 AM EDT 0 recs
Congrats, cumby
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 11:23 AM EDT
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Is it really possible to have
by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 16, 2007 11:20 AM EDT 0 recs
Too many #1s
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 11:27 AM EDT
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On the other hand, if you try to
by jillsinmo on
Sep 16, 2007 11:39 AM EDT
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i don't think there are even
by willievinceterry on
Sep 16, 2007 1:41 PM EDT
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is there insurance for juan
by willievinceterry on
Sep 16, 2007 1:39 PM EDT
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Today's pitching matchup
The discarded, flaky healthy arm
vs
The injured, former dominant pitching ace
The Cardinals tempted fate that Mulder would be back at this point and being able to pitch better than the likes of Jason Marquis.
Will he today? Likely not. Will Tony even give Mulder the 'A+' lineup to back him up? Likely not.
Will Miguel Cairo start at 1st base and bat 3rd? Possibly.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 11:24 AM EDT 0 recs
Here's the lineup
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 11:33 AM EDT
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True
Ryan SS
Ankiel RF
Pujols 1B
Edmonds CF
Ludwick LF
Molina C
Branyan/Barden 3B
Mulder P
Miles 2B
by Hardcore Legend on
Sep 16, 2007 11:36 AM EDT
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Wainwright's season has been a
Now for some more positive news, I give you the "Pedro Report" Martinez has been one of my favorite players for a long time and he pitched in his 3rd start since rotator cuff surgery.....his line
6 innings, 7 hits, 1 earned run, 0BB 9K's, 98 pitches. That was against the Phillies. He got a no decision. His ERA since returning is 1.69. I have never seen a player enjoy his time at the park more than him and I'm glad I'll get to see him pitch again.
by jillsinmo on Sep 16, 2007 12:06 PM EDT 0 recs
What's most promising
ERA By Month
March/April:6.12
May: 5.00
June: 3.69
July: 3.09
August: 2.00
September: 2.41
First Half: 4.66
Second Half: 2.49
Does his overall season make him a #1 starter? Probably not. It shows him as a great 2 or 3. However, his second half shows him as a #1, thats for sure. If he can keep his second half form, he will be dominant next year.
by Quel on Sep 16, 2007 12:34 PM EDT 0 recs
I gave up on this team making the playoffs
However, I guess it was eating my morning Cap'N Crunch that I realized: "We're chasing the &%&%#@) Cubs".
With a win today, 5 games out is still a tall mountain to climb barefoot. Yet, I'll tell you what...if there was ever a team to go on a huge losing streak to close out the season, it's the Cubs.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 12:37 PM EDT 0 recs
HoustonCard
by hawaiifan on Sep 16, 2007 12:51 PM EDT 0 recs
Lineups per Yahoo!
Mr. Japan lf
M. DeRosa 2b
D. Lee 1b
Crybaby 3b
Ginger rf
Eckstein's bitch cf
G. Soto c
R. Cedeno ss
Betty p
St. Louis
Super Mario 2b
Roy Hobbs rf
A. Pujols 1b
J. Edwards cf
R. Ludwick lf
Sand Frog 3b
Y. Molina c
M. Mulder p
B. Ryan ss
I hope we drill Ramirez twice today.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 1:03 PM EDT 0 recs
WOW!!
by champion on
Sep 16, 2007 1:11 PM EDT
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One complaint.
Super Mario = ?
Sand Frog = ?
by DriverZn on Sep 16, 2007 1:11 PM EDT 0 recs
super mario = aaron miles?
as for sand frog, i have no idea what that means.
by mattybobo on
Sep 16, 2007 1:31 PM EDT
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spiezio
by willievinceterry on
Sep 16, 2007 1:44 PM EDT
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Aaron Miles *is* Super Mario

by Hardcore Legend on
Sep 16, 2007 2:10 PM EDT
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thank you
by lopey986 on
Sep 16, 2007 2:48 PM EDT
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This
Thanks for that, I needed it.
by yer dog first on
Sep 16, 2007 3:49 PM EDT
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Great first post houstoncardinal
I also had a question similar to Quel's above. Because Wainwright's first couple of months were negatively influenced by his pitching with a sore, tired, or slightly injured arm (depending on the source), does the whole season offer a good predictive value for his future?
I would be interested in a similar analysis of Wainwright's pitching after his LA meltdown. I believe it's at that point, or a couple of games later, that he said his arm had gotten back to normal.
For some players at least, it seems like context would be important to be taken into account. Injuries could easily distort predictive value. But I would think that for groundball pitchers, the defensive capabilities of their team could also factor in. What park they play in would also seem like it would be important--size, altitude, shape, hills in the middle of the outfield, etc. would seem like they would influence particular stats and make some comparisons across teams problematic.
Anyway, very interesting post. I'm really looking forward to your analysis of Looper's pitching as well.
by nycardfan on Sep 16, 2007 1:34 PM EDT 0 recs
It seems to me
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 3:46 PM EDT
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BTW
BB/9: 2.67
K/9: 6.13
You're right, much better than overall. Still, if you're going to compare those pitchers correctly, you have take the entire thing, not cherry-pick the numbers you prefer.
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 3:52 PM EDT
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Thanks for calculating that
I wouldn't characterize adjusting for context--especially if you are looking at an injury related downturn--as cherry picking, but I understand why you see it this way.
I agree if someone is simply choosing the best numbers out of a season, that would be cherry-picking and nonsensical But if a downturn is related to a physical injury or impairment that may not be repeated the following year(s), then your predictive value could be quite off. I'm sure scouts take specific contexts into account when they are assessing someone's potential talent.
Because people play in concrete situations and not in the abstract, it seems like there should be some way to make predictive adjustments for specific performance distorting circumstances.
by nycardfan on
Sep 16, 2007 5:41 PM EDT
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Completely off topic but
by brindled on Sep 16, 2007 1:38 PM EDT 0 recs
I agree
by nycardfan on
Sep 16, 2007 1:42 PM EDT
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Has anyone noticed that our regular
by jillsinmo on Sep 16, 2007 1:43 PM EDT 0 recs
I wouldn't mind Renteria coming back
by willievinceterry on
Sep 16, 2007 1:45 PM EDT
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I'd like to keep Ryan at SS
by nycardfan on
Sep 16, 2007 1:47 PM EDT
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I have and I'm glad
by chuckb on
Sep 16, 2007 3:47 PM EDT
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Besides all the injuries
by nycardfan on
Sep 16, 2007 7:54 PM EDT
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Mulder living at 89
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 16, 2007 2:17 PM EDT 0 recs
Every batter he gets out
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 2:21 PM EDT
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Throw a strike
by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:22 PM EDT 0 recs
how is mulder looking
i agree that every out (and every scoreless inning) is a small victory. i really hope he can hang in for 5 (even 6) today and give up no more than 3 runs.
by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 2:24 PM EDT 0 recs
I only saw the third out
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 2:30 PM EDT
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After that inning, I am not exactly impressed
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
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RBIs 93 and 94 would be sweet
by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:28 PM EDT 0 recs
Rick might have hurt his left hand...
by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT 0 recs
how?
by willievinceterry on
Sep 16, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
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Rick but his hands out
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 2:37 PM EDT
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I would perfer Taguchi to Edmonds against Marquis
by Zubin on Sep 16, 2007 2:39 PM EDT 0 recs
ruthless efficiency
by willievinceterry on Sep 16, 2007 2:40 PM EDT 0 recs
hah
by lopey986 on
Sep 16, 2007 2:45 PM EDT
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Marquis strikes me as the kind of athlete
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 2:46 PM EDT
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Maybe...
by lopey986 on
Sep 16, 2007 2:47 PM EDT
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Actually, I was thinking along the same line,
by Zubin on
Sep 16, 2007 2:49 PM EDT
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the thing with st louis...
by lopey986 on
Sep 16, 2007 2:51 PM EDT
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'04?
i think it's the other way around this year, though. they've been more patient than most teams would be, and he has been reinserted into the rotation a couple of times due to a lack of better options at the time.
by willievinceterry on
Sep 16, 2007 2:56 PM EDT
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