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Around SBN: 2012 Africa Cup Of Nations Final

Game 144 Open Thread: September 13, 2007

Birdos_avatar_tiny by lboros on in St. Louis Cardinals News

wells

harang

6-16, 5.65

14-4, 3.64

the cards are now 0-6 since the ankiel-hgh allegation came out. likewise, toronto is 0-5 since troy glaus was unmasked as a steroid purchaser, while the orioles are 0-3 since the jay gibbons/steroid revelation. last season, you might recall, the diamondbacks were in first place by a game and a half the day the jason grimsley affidavit hit the papers (june 7); they promptly lost 5 in a row and 20 of their next 23 to fall all the way to the bottom of the division.

rather obviously, these sorts of disclosures are a bit of a distraction. of particular note, 3 of the 4 teams in question abruptly stopped hitting after their clubhouse was linked to peds:

dbacks (23 games): .236 / .311 / .361
cards (6 games): .235 / .308 / .405
jays (5 games): .218 / .272 / .309
o's (3 games): .283 / .315 / .491
an interesting pattern, no? doesn't really prove anything (sample size, etc), but the similarities among these cases get one's attention at the very least.

* * * * * * * * *

i and many others have been arguing for weeks that anthony reyes' won-loss record is misleading. that's not to say, however, that it means nothing; like every stat it captures a slice of reality, while missing other parts. (for some of the other parts, i highly recommend red baron's diary about reyes.) at 2-14, reyes how owns one of the worst single-season winning percentages (10 decisions or more) of any pitcher in franchise history. here are the rankings:
  1. john raleigh, 1909: .111 (1-10)
  2. anthony reyes, 2007: .125 (2-14)
  3. danny jackson, 1995: 143 (2-12)
  4. gus thompson, 1906: .154 (2-11)
  5. wish egan, 1906: .182 (2-9)
since 1900, there have been 112 big-league pitchers who posted a single-year winning percentage of .200 or below in at least 15 decisions (ie, a 3-12 record or worse). it includes plenty of names you've heard of. for example, burleigh grimes, the last of the legal spitballers and a mainstay of the cardinals' pennant-winning rotations in 1930 and 1931, went 3-16 for the pirates in his first full season (1917); he hung around long enough to win 270 games and a trip to cooperstown. camilio pascual, one of baseball's first cuban-born stars, went 2-12 in his 2d year (1955) and by age 24 had a career mark of 28-66; he lasted 18 years in the big leagues and retired with a career record of 174-170 and 5 all-star game appearances. darold knowles, one of history's pioneering LOOGYs, went 2-14 in relief in 1970 despite a 2.04 era (what are the odds . . . . .); fred norman went 3-12 in his first full year (1971) but finished 6th in the cy voting two years later and helped pitch the reds to back-to-back world titles, while jerry koosman went 3-15 for the mets in 1978 (on the heels of an 8-20 season) but bounced back to win 20 for the twins the following year.

there are way too many guys on this list to name them all. but if we winnow it to include only guys with reyes' current record (2-14) or worse, it gets a lot shorter --- fewer than 30. and if we further restrict it to pitchers who, like reyes, were used predominantly as starting pitchers in their terrible year (at least 2/3 of their appearances), it's a very exclusive roster --- just 6 guys:

year age team w-l era era+ avg+ obp+ slg+
anthony reyes 2007 25 stl 2-14 5.69 76 103 102 93
jim abbott 1996 28 cal 2-18 7.48 66 90 90 88
jose deleon 1985 24 pit 2-19 4.70 77 109 96 105
matt keough 1979 23 oak 2-17 5.04 81 86 87 90
ken reynolds 1972 25 pha 2-15 4.26 84 97 96 84
jack nabors 1916 28 pha (al) 1-20 3.47 82 n/a n/a n/a

reynolds and nabors barely pitched in the big leagues again after their face-plant seasons, while jim abbott (who had a string of excellent years behind him) missed most of the next two seasons and only made another 20 mlb starts. but keough and deleon both provide at least a little hope. the season after going 2-17, keough went 16-13 and finished 4th in the league in era. he followed that up with a solid year in 1981. unfortunately, it didn't last; he walked 101 men in 1982 and lost 18 games, then hurt his arm and was out of the league by age 30.

deleon is the most comparable pitcher to reyes on this list. he reaped his banner crop of losses at about the same age as anthony, and at about the same point in his career (3d season); note also that both pitchers' won-loss and era disagree sharply w/ their opponent avgs; both were better than league average in 2 of the 3 categories and close to average in the 3d category. when we look at deleon's situational splits (bless you, baseball-reference.com), we find an additional correspondence w/ reyes --- deleon in 1985 was way above league average with the bases empty but got killed with runners in scoring position. he brought that problem under control the following year and pitched pretty effectively for 6 seasons, mostly in st louis. if you're 30 or older, you remember this guy; he spent 4 1/2 years w/ the cards (1988-1992) and made 145 starts, won a league strikeout title (1989) and maintained a league-average era. he went 29-22 his first couple of years in the loo and, at age 28, seemed poised to become an all-star; but a 7-19 record in 1990 dashed those hopes, and in 1991 he contrived to win just 5 games despite finishing 6th in the league in era. in august 1992 the cardinals released him; he would make only 6 more major-league starts. . . . . all the same, deleon lasted 10 seasons after the 2-19 debacle and turned in 6 more-than-respectable years immediately following it --- a 3.60 era between 1986 and 1991.

though justifiably perceived as an underachiever, deleon nevertheless was a more-than-useful pitcher for several years. i suspect reyes will have a similar career. i doubt he will have it in st. louis.

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Best Team Record?
Anyone have the research to say what is the best record a team has finished the season with when they have two 14+ game losers?  

by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 9:43 AM EDT reply actions  

reyes
Nice work finding the DeLeon v. Reyes comparison.  I remember Ponce well.

>>i suspect reyes will have a similar career. i doubt he will have it in st. louis.<<

Qualifier: if LaDuncan return.  Reyes will go mad attempting another year under LaDuncan.  He should be traded for whatever he can fetch should the tandem return for another campaign.  However, say Joe Girardi / Dyar Miller were the new Cards management team for 08, I like Reyes' chances of rebounding in the Lou.

by jjray on Sep 13, 2007 9:45 AM EDT reply actions  

He'll have to completely relearn his mechanics
no matter who his pitching coach is.  When he gets into trouble, it's because his mechanics go to pot and he just slings it up there.

I hope and pray it is his mechanics that are causing his problems and not an arm injury.  A guy doesn't just lose all that velocity without a major red flag going up.

I wouldn't mind Anthony Reyes in the rotation next year...as the 'Kip Wells' of the rotation.  Taking a shot on a guy who was once a promising young pitcher.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're probably right
about that, Hardcore.  Anthony doesn't seem to be very good at repeating his delivery anymore; his command issues seem to be a combination of both a lack of confidence and, at times, a wandering delivery.  Wherever he goes, there will be a lot of rebuilding to do.  
If you don't ask me to dinner, I don't eat.

by the red baron on Sep 13, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

What really sucks
is that Reyes might just have the worst overall numbers -- aside from Abbott -- out of that whole bunch. Personally, i think Reynolds is a better comparison at this point. Prove me wrong, though, Anthony... Prove me wrong!

(I had totally forgotten how quickly Jim Abbott's career fell off. He was an absolute horse when he first came up.)

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Avg+ etc.
When I first read that I thought those + numbers were opposite (lower is better) but when reading Larry's post they are exactly like normal.  Higher is better (unless Larry misread the numbers).

If higher is better for the pitcher then he is great in those areas, (he does have a .258/.333/.455  .787OPS line so far which isn't dismal especially compared to Wells .285/.363/.456  .819OPS or last year's Marquis .289/.364/.509  .873OPS).

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

"Great"
being relative, of course.

I'm a firm believer (admittedly to a fault) in era+. To me, given a decent sample size, it paints the whole picture of a pitchers season.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

i would agree that reyes' era+
accurately reflects reyes' season. i don't think it reflects his ability, though.

by lboros on Sep 13, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed
I completely agree.  I think he could have good seasons and I hope he has one in 2008 (regardless of where he is) and I hope he is still here when he does it.  Personally I think it might be time to go back on my call to pick up our half of Pineiro's option, allow Reyes to be this season's Wells and lets find 2 pitchers somewhere that can be suppanesc or similar for us.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

And I would agree with that.
Lets hope whoever their shipping him off to this winter believes so too. I'm not expecting equal return of talent -- if it's 75 cent on the dollar, I'd be pleased; but if it's pennies, I'll be pissed.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

DeLeon
A friend once told me in 1989 why he didn't like Jose DeLeon: "He just knows how to lose."  I get  the same feeling with young A-Rey.
The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 13, 2007 10:05 AM EDT reply actions  

deleon did have that knack
but he also was a workhorse --- went 16-12 and 13-10 in back-to-back years while leading the cards in innings pitched. he was exasperating because we all saw in him the potential to be an ace pitcher.

by lboros on Sep 13, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

And in 1989
He inspired the saying "Deleon, Magraine and pray for rain."

If memory serves, isn't he among the Cardinal's all-time leaders in BAA?

He was a stud in his own way, no doubt.

The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 13, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yikes
Zubin is right on the money. DeLeon knew exactly how to lose. The difference I see with Reyes is that he seems to give up his runs earlier than DeLeon. With Reyes, it always seems like we spot the other team 2-3 runs in the first 2 innings. With DeLeon, it seemed like we would be cruising along winning 1-0 and he would give up a couple in the 5th and 6th to get the loss. (No science to this, just my selective memory.) Either way, I found DeLeon's starts to be torture...much like Reyes' starts this year.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Sep 13, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks
for the plug, Lb.  I actually remember DeLeon quite fondly, though I'm not as old as your parameters.  DeLeon had a funny delivery, with an odd little wrap at the back of his delivery, a little bit like Andrew Miller, if I remember correctly.  
If you don't ask me to dinner, I don't eat.

by the red baron on Sep 13, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Reyes' mistakes
I just went and looked at every "mistake" Reyes made, every hit, HBP and BB from last night.  For the most part he was punished while staying low in the zone.

1st inning, Griffey hit a 3-2 91MPH fastball for a single, all 6 pitches thrown were low.
3rd inning Valentine hit a 2-1 91MPH fastball that was in the middle of the plate for a single (the other 3 pitches were low)
3rd inning he hit Arroyo with a pitch that was high and tight following up on a foul off a low and away pitch (he just got too tight otherwise it looked like a great jam pitch)
4th inning Phillips hit a 3-2 82MPH changeup that was left belt high for a solo home run, all the pitches in that at bat were belt high or lower
4th inning Dunn took 4 pitches for a walk, 3 of which were at the edge of the strike zone and all of them were low
4th inning Encarnacion hit a 3-1 76 MPH curveball that was definitely a hanging curve belt high, in that AB only ball 1 on the second pitch was higher then that, also pitches 1 and 3 of that AB were both 76-77 mph curves that hit their location, pitch 1 was a call strike on the inside corner, pitch 3 was a ball on the outside corner, the homer was dead center of the plate and belt high, bad pitch and it got hammered but as Baron asked why did he start throwing curves when he really doesn't have a good curve?
4th inning Votto walks on a full count all balls were near the zone except one and all were low.

To me this gives me hope that his mistakes aren't in his "stuff" it is born from trying to have him pitch in a way that he can't.  Also at this point I think the way he can handle his 4 seam and change up would make him a great reliever, why not use him as such for the remainder of the season if we don't plan to start him again?

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Reyes
I watched Anthony pitch.  Here are his two problems.
  1. He does not have an out pitch.  You absolutely have to have an out pitch to be a MLB pitcher who is worth anything.
  2. Poor location.  It seems he has to throw alot of pitches because he does not have an out pitch.  The more pitches you throw to a hitter the greater the chance you will miss on location.
He needs to be much more aggressive in my opinion.  He gets behind and makes a lot of mistakes trying to get back into the count.

Anthony just is not showing signs of getting it yet.

For example Rich Hill made his debut in 2005 and since he has pitched 56 games making 49 starts.  Anthony made his debut in 2005 and has pitched 42 games while making 38 starts.  Rich Hill is leaps and bounds ahead of Anthony at this point.  Rich Hill has an out pitch, and seems to get ahead of a lot of batters.  Also Rich Hill is not consistently down 3-0 in the fist 2 innings of the games.  Yes Anthony has not gotten a lot of run support, but it is really hard to come back when your pitcher spots the other team 3 to 4 runs in first few innings of the game.  

I think the ball is in Anthony's court.  He flat out needs to step it up.  No excuses, he is the one who needs to fix the problem.  He is two years younger than Rich Hill and I want to see Anthony get things better.  Hell the Cubs are dissappointed with Sean Marshall.  Hell he has been way better than Reyes.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Lineups per gameday
Eckstein SS
Cairo 3B
Pujols 1B
Edmonds CF
Ludwick LF
Schumaker RF
Stinnett C
Wells P
Ryan 2B

Hopper CF
Keppinger SS
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Ross C
Harang P

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Yuck
Miguel Cairo batting second.  That's all that needs to be said about that lineup.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Albert hasn't hit a HR in 68 ABs
2nd longest of his career.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

i said to the wife last night
"how many warning track flies can he hit in one night?"

better to rest than play hurt, albert, but if he sat, who do we put at first?  cairo?  yadi?

Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah yes
how could i forget.  if that were the case, i recall he made a pretty good fill in...
Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard to imagine him ...
cresting the 100 rbi mark the way he's hitting of late. (5 rbi in Sept)

And yet some are still putting him in the MVP group snapshot.

by Urban Pawnee on Sep 13, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Putting Cairo in your starting lineup...
is an incredible waste of a lineup spot.

Why is Cairo starting in so many damn games?  This is maddening.

(And now that I've reverse-jinxed him, I expect him to go 2-3 with a double, BB, 2 runs scored and 2 RBI...)

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Especially when he breaks up our best hitters
If you used those players today, I'd go:

Eck
Lud
Pu
Edm
Schu
Stinn
Cairo
Kip
Ryan

That way 9-5 are all decent/solid hitters, without a black hole breaking them up.

Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually
Swap Lud and Schu in that lineup.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Barden
Is LaRussa totally against this guy or what? He is better defensively than Cairo and should be as good offensively. (Considering Cairo's most recent lack of success) This was one guy I was looking forward to seeing this September.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Sep 13, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thoughts
I like Ankiel sitting, remember Schumaker did a great job bringing life to the team with Ryan earlier this year.  Bennett must really be in pain to be sitting today since he is 3-4 against Harang.  I don't really mind Cairo at 3B since Ryan is playing and I wonder what he will do in front of AP, interesting to say the least but I would have preferred Barden there.  I like the defense in that OF behind Wells too, well the IF defense is probably our best possible too, overall a nice defensive alignment.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

vs Harang and Wells
(avg obp slg ops)
Eckstein .400     .455     .500     .955
Cairo hasn't faced him
Pujols .364     .417     .576     .992
Edmonds .207     .281     .586     .867
Ludwick 0-1
Schumaker 0-1
Stinnett 0-5
Wells 0-1
Ryan hasn't faced him

Hopper hasnt faced him
Keppinger hasnt faced him
Griffey .368     .536     1.105     1.641
Phillips .500     .500     .500     1.000
Dunn .286     .432     .514     .946
Enc .571     .667     .714     1.381
Votto hasnt faced him
Ross 1-4
Harang 1-2

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yikes
4 guys with .946 or better OPS (3 with >1.000) vs. Kipperston in the middle of that lineup.  That doesn't bode well...
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reyes v. Bonderman
During last years playoffs and Series I remembered thinking about the 2007 v. 2003 (4-19)edition of Jeremy Bonderman, he used to get lit up like a Christmas tree, good stuff, poor location.  With time and experience he became a solid, innings eating, middle of the rotation guy.  This is the path I hope Reyes can follow.

by rajah424 on Sep 13, 2007 12:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Bonderman...
has been absolutely terrible this year. He started off hot, but has been abysmal for the past few months. His ERA is up over 5 i think now.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 13, 2007 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He had a big problem
in the middle of the season (at least, he may still have it, too lazy to look it up during class) of giving up runs in the first inning.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reyes
Yes I hope Anthony becomes able to be a #4 or #5 starter.  I think people had such expectations for him they became overly disappointed.  My point about him is he is not that good, but he is not this bad either.  He is somewhere inbetween just like 75% of #5 startes in the game today.  They have good years and they have bad years.  When your #4& #5 starters are good you have a good year.  I am actually surprised the Cubs are not better considering the pitching they are getting from #4 & #5.  I guess it hurt when #1 does not step up.

Line up does not look too potent on paper, but heck maybe they will give us some good AB's.

Now I think Kip is more important than Reyes for this fact. Kip has #2 or #3 starter stuff.  He needs to finish strong because I would not be too upset if he comes back next year at fair price.  If he requires too much $$ then we should not resign him.  His mental make up is probably worse than Anthonys.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn.
shannon's call sounded like he had it.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh boy
Here we go.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

In the words of Mel Allen
Howaboutthat!
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeebus H Christ...
what's with the strike zone?
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Kip ecapes danger
There's a sentence I never thought that I'd type.

by Valatan on Sep 13, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Way to recover, Kip...
single, walk, DP, SO.  That'll work, I guess.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep
Hope that clears his head and gets him rolling.
C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cards catchers
Is it customary to have such a HUGE dropoff between your 1st and 2nd string catchers?  Obviously, I expect a dropoff, but not of the "off a cliff" variety...

Going from Yadi to either Bennett or Stinnett (ugh) is painful.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I think a new custom
or at least a precedent TLR is setting is that the 2nd and 3rd string catchers have names that rhyme.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Harang
How does Harang look?

Does our line up have a chance? Did the first inning batters have good AB's?

thanks

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

How does he look?
He's one ugly dude.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

i've always referred to harang
as the "sea monkey."  something about that grin...
Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

or
harang-utan.  my personal favorite.

by redrey on Sep 13, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Confirming
that from the female point of view.  Dude looks like he got a double whack with the ugly stick.  

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 13, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice grab, Brendan!
That was HUGE.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Harang
The dude's only thrown 30 pitches through 3 innings, and 22 of them for strikes!

Wow.  Either he's being incredibly aggressive in the strike zone, our guys are hackin' at everything close, or a little of both.  

If he keeps this up, I don't like our chances.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

If I were Hopper
I'd totally go for the steal with Stinnett behind the plate.

Odds are definitely in his favor.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Double play...
Told ya' you should have tried for the steal, Hopper...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

0-2 on Dunn
better be all sliders away, away, away.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank god for the double plays...
Kip has given up 4 hits and 3 walks through 2.2 innings, with no damage.  Yet...

No way that can be sustained indefinitely...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

He could also start striking people out
he does seem to do that from time to time.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now would be a good time...
with 3-2 to Dunn with runners on 1st and 2nd...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hrm. Or he could toss in another walk.
You know.  To make it "interesting".
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone else think
that Adam Dunn looks like John C. Reilly (Cal Naughton, Jr. in Talladega Nights)?
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:28 PM EDT reply actions  

He is Will Farrell
after Thanksgiving dinner.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep,
dead ringer.

anyone see a little tom hanks in ludwick?

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has the strength of a Ludwig
and a little Tom Hanks...
Call up Jarrett Hoffpauir!

by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 13, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe West knows that the curveball
just has to go over the front of the knee crossing the plate, right?  Just because it finishes below the knee doesn't mean it wasn't a strike.

Kip is a victim of his own skill.  His curveball has so much bite that umpires won't call it a strike.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Kip = Playing with fire
Fire BAD!

3.0 IP
57 pitches, 28 strikes
4 H, 4 BB, 1 SO
WHIP = 2.67!!

Runs = 0

Whaaaa??!?

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Kip not throwing strikes = good?
Last start (PIT)
3.1 IP
62 pitches, 41 strikes
10 H, 0 BB, 2 K  
Runs = 6
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Al's comment after Edwin's pop up
"that was not a good pitch"...

Looks like Kippy tried his hardest to give us what we're used to - mind numbing implosion.

If only, Encarnacion would've cooperated

by cardsfaninmass on Sep 13, 2007 1:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Another warning track shot
this is getting depressing.  If you added 3 feet to these balls this past week, he'd be almost to 40 on the season.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Watch your back, HL...
I'm only a few seconds behind you.  ;-)
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blame the Hammy....
I think we are seeing the results of Albert playing with that bad right leg....not getting the power from his weight change forward that he usually does...thus...the warning track shots...over ....and over....

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yet another near miss
That's like 5 or 6 homers Pujols would have this week if he hit it about 3 feet further each time.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Sniffing my but again
Mr. Clean!

mwhahahahaha

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

butt*
/sulks away :(
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh
<nelson>

HA ha!

</nelson>

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to agree...
it's a matter of time till Kip just implodes..

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I find it pretty incredible...
That we have had exactly 1 baserunner and have 1 run, while the Reds have had 8 men reach base through 3 w/ 0 runs scored.

Wow.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Leadoff hit in the bottom of the 4th
Time for yet another DP?
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Or how about a walk...
to set up the TRIPLE play!

Gotta think BIG!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gameday
Gameday is being very slow today.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 1:46 PM EDT reply actions  

,,,and another walk....
...the Angels had 13 walks against the O's last night; maybe Cincy can beat that today.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 13, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Miguel Cairo is not a MLB level player
way to botch an easy double play.  Get this guy off the field.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, at least they got the guy at 3rd
DP still in order...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Dan's utter contempt for Kip Wells
is pretty funny.  It's almost as if he is saying 'Am I the only one seeing this crap?'

They were talking about the Cardinals signing Kip to an extension.  I thought Dan was going to lose it.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Good piece of hitting there by Hopper
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey Miguel, that runs on you
you below replacement level piece of crap.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

yep.
no way the run is at all the responsibility of kip kippersley. all he's been doing is throwing strikes and inducing outs. damn defense keeps letting him down.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ank coulda gunned him down...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Albert, you goofy man you
why in the world did he throw that to 2nd.

Let's make things more difficult, ya...let's do THAT.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Cuz his hammy hurts
and he doesn't have to run 4 or 5 steps to the bag?

Of course, what about his elbow...  Hrm...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take the 1 spot
and still consider us pretty damn lucky.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

ditto
we have hit balls hard it seems (listening on the radio)

Also was Ryan's catch in RF really as impressive as Mike made it out to be?

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan's catch in the 1st?
Yeah, it was a very good play.

Not quite "top 10 highlight reel", but a solid, hustling play.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not 1st
It was 2nd I beleive but he ran out in front of Skip and reached at the last second.  Mike and John were both floored by it.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right...
it was the 2nd.  

If that ball had dropped, it would probably have been 1 run in, plus runners on 1st and 3rd.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is actually kind of amazing
11 baserunners through 4 innings (2.75 WHIP) and only one run scored...  if I was a CIN fan I'd be extremely annoyed.
"and we're grasping at rainbows, holding on till the end..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 13, 2007 1:54 PM EDT reply actions  

If you were a Reds fan
you'd be used to it.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he were a Reds fan
he wouldn't even be watching this game...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Harang vs Kip
Thru 4 innings:

Harang: 38 pitches, 26 strikes (68.4%)
Kip:    80 pitches, 42 strikes (52.5%)

LOL.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

We are being 1 hit
boy it would have been nice to jump on him early when he was struggling.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

for those of you watching..
is Harang's stuff that good today?....or are are bats just that bad?

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 1:58 PM EDT reply actions  

50/50
A good mix of both.

He's aggressive in the strike zone, AND we're happily swinging at everything anyway.

He's made a few mistakes, but we've just missed taking advantage of them...quite a few hard hit balls that fall just short.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks....
just wondering since he just struck out the side....geez...

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Tony trying to get Kip 5 innings
so he can qualify for a freakin' win or something?

Or is it that our bullpen in just toast?

I don't understand why he's still in there...

Egads.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both
and it is only 1 run, Tony seems to notice runs more then hits.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

If true...
that means Tony trusts more in LUCK than in Probability.

That's really scary.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hafta say
Although I miss Duncan's bat (from when he was healthy), I sure do like Ludwick's defense in left.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Good lord.
Kip's all over the place now.

This can't end well...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Bad call on the walk
Why did Tony walk Encarnacion there?  So stupid.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

encarnacion was 0-2
so he was due for a hit... votto was 2-2 so he was due for a GIDP.  Or something equally wise and incoherent, I'm sure.

And wow, this game got out of hand fast.

"and we're grasping at rainbows, holding on till the end..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, a 2 run Double! Who'd a thunk it?
Oh, wait.

EVERYONE BUT TONY.

God dammit.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:09 PM EDT reply actions  

2 run HR too
Come on Tony PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME!

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the piece de resistance...
the 2-run HR to the #8 hitter.

Lovely.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

tony's stupid gut.
he's gotta stop eating those breakfast burritos.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

well
guess i can get back to work, cuz we ain't scoring 5 more runs.
foot soldier in the memphis mafia.....

by CarolinaCardinal on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

No kidding
Especially with Harang only at 50 pitches thru 5.  At this rate, he may throw a complete game 1 hitter.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

And ......
The Wells Implosion...is complete... as predicted, and expected by everyone who's watched this guy pitch this year....oh...except for Tony..

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm done...
I hope they lose at least 3 to chicago so I can stop hoping we will win this thing. Please lay down and lose to Cinncy and the next 3 of 4 to chicago. I can't take anymore. I swear  if they come back today and sweep chicago I will go beserk with unjustifiable rage.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Sep 13, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

SWEEP Chicago?
Um....I really don't think you will have to worry about that...honest..

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

as bad as it is being jerked around
by our bipolar birds, it's a small victory that we're even playing meaningful games in september.

although they are getting less meaningful by the day... <sigh>

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I refuse to believe...
that with about 12 guys in the bullpen, there isn't SOMEONE in there who could have come in to finish the 5th and also pitch the 6th.

Oh, and after the 10th hit thru 4.1, there's the move by Tony...4 batters and 1 out too damn late.  Unbelievable.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Pitcher due up
With the pitcher due up first he probably was thinking:  "Do I want to waste an Arm on only 3 outs?"

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Missed my point
My point was, with the crappy showing by Kip throughout the entire game (as referenced on here repeatedly), he should have pulled Kip "Doesn't Pitch" Wells after the leadoff double to Phillips.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't miss the point
I was just saying that was Tony's logic not mine.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

That logic is only appied to
pitchers with 3 or fewer years of experience.

by DriverZn on Sep 13, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

And, in an effort to prove that Wells isn't
all THAT bad--

we move onward with Andy Cavazos

by Valatan on Sep 13, 2007 2:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't worry
we won't be 1 hit.  We'll get 2 hits next inning, Runners 1st and 3rd for Albert and he'll ground into another DP.

Gotta look for positives.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, back to work for me.
I hope we can pull it out somehow, but I seriously doubt it.

Later, folks.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Rally...Rally
Everybody gets a hit.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Can I make a suggestion?
If Miguel Cairo's spot in the lineup comes up this inning, can we please have someone PH for him?
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Nooooooooo!!!!
stop using this guy!
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tell me again...
WHY isn't Ryan starting every friggin game for this team in Sept?.....I can't figure it out..

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Pitcher batting 8th
Soo, 6 consecutive L's on the record, and were still batting our pitcher 8th? C'mon, can we please go back to a standard lineup? By standard I mean, no Cairo or Branyan. I want Ryan, Lud, Barden in there. Lets get the youth movement full stride! I understand that that's not exactly a standard line-up for TLR (I like TLR though), but we need to play the guys that will be with us next year. e-gad brain!
Dont give up boys!

by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:25 PM EDT reply actions  

The pitcher batting 8th isn't why we are losing
it's our starters going 3.1 innings every night.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm fairly sure...
that the cardinals pitchers problems don't have anything to do with where they are batting in the order.  

Reyes and Wells, 40% of our starting rotation, are the type of guys where you feel you need to put up 6 or more runs a game to win.  Combined, they are 8-30, 22 games under 500.  There became a point in the season where it was no longer worthwhile to keep putting those two on the mound this year, and TLR obviously is about 2-3 months late on that one.

Even if they are the "best" guys you have, bring up some young talent and give them some experience.  I don't care if they are playing A ball right now, they can't really be any worse.

by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

At least
Cairo can take a walk...

by saladdays on Sep 13, 2007 2:26 PM EDT reply actions  

walking cairo
to get to pujols. not something you see every day.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cairo
It absolutely infuriates me to see anyone with a Yankees hat on in their gameday pic, on the Cards side!
Dont give up boys!

by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Did they just walk Cairo....
to get to Albert?...wow...I mean I understand the reason...but..wow..there was a time when that would be unheard of....

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Another warning track shot
RBI Sac Fly.

That's the key, we just have to keep getting runners to 3rd base!

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank you AP!
no gidp! Now, get healthy mi amigo. We need you!
Dont give up boys!

by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks Miguel
You've been a big help today.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Cavazos
Is he still pitching?  He is obviously not part of the plans next year?

8.15 ERA

I guess he just fits right in with our staff.  He has been absolutely terrible.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

You have got to be kidding me...
Cairo STEALING?...DOWN two friggin runs with Edmonds at the plate?.....what the?

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

cairo
FYI-

Just because you picked up Branyan and Cairo does not mean it is necessary to play them. I only play them if they are going to be on the team next year.  I can not see a reason that either one fits in the plans for next year.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I just realized that after the 1st inning
our entire infield bats one after another

Ryan
Eckstein
Cairo
Pujols

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Do you count pitcher as infield?
If so then you get
Catcher
Pitcher
Second
Short
Third
First

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

1 pitch
1 out by WonderBrad! At least AP hasnt fallen asleep in the field!
Dont give up boys!

by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Get on base, Jim
Ludwick has power.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:40 PM EDT reply actions  

This team....
is a "Pop-up" machine.....

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Boy.....
they have figured out how to get Rick huh?...inside breaking stuff seems to get him most of the time...

by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:47 PM EDT reply actions  

CUBS
Please do not get embarassed by the Cubs this weekend!!!

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

You're correct...
...the big hole in his swing has been found.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 13, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions  

even worse...
...the big hole in his confidence has been reopened.  

by age3in82 on Sep 13, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Has anyone seen..
The poll on stlcardinals.com?  

"Who most deserves to be in the rotation for the final three weeks?"

After almost 11,000 votes,

Wells: 7%
Maroth: 6%
Reyes: 16%
Thompson: 27%
"why not a 4 man rotation?": 43%

That about sums up our rotation.

by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 2:50 PM EDT reply actions  

time to start...
...managing the team by polls and committee.  with things like who starts a game or comes in for relief and when seem to be decided much more effectively by the patrons of this website than by our loony manager.

by age3in82 on Sep 13, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Maroth
He got on the main page and voted for himself 660 times.

My vote goes for Rick Ankiel.  Get this story:

Dude comes up as a phenom pitcher, then falls apart.

Dude comes back up as an outfielder, rakes for 2 weeks, it is revealed he did HGH (supposedly), and he falls apart again.

Dude gets back on the mound and pitches 3 perfect games in a row.

How's THAT for Hollywood.

Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

wonderbrad
glad to see him be the kicker instead of the puppy today
foot soldier in the memphis mafia.....

by CarolinaCardinal on Sep 13, 2007 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Jeff the cowbuy brantley
ok like many of you he called the kippers implosion..unlike you he's a broadcaster and is it appropriate for them to go "tick tick tick..boom? Maybe if the tables were turned i wouldnt be as upset..yes its true but it just seemed harsh to well tell the truth that he sucks..he said some other things refering to the slop he was hurling up there...

i was just curious your opinions he said nothing that wasnt true just wondered if it were crossing a line..cant recall MIke, or jack being that negative on another player..Againj not that you sugar coat the truth they are professionals

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 2:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Well..
You don't exactly need to be Nostradamus to predict that Kip Wells isn't going to have a good outing.  I think anyone here would admit he is terrible.

by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

i said that already
u missed the point.. we all know it, but we arent broadcasters..Just the tick tick tick was annoying..Its not what he said it's how he said it
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Might be a tad unprofessional
But when it comes down to it, there are only so many ways you can describe a situation.  Its a decent way of calling Wells a ticking time bomb.  Any criticism he receives, no matter how harsh/unprofessional, is is well deserved.  Its like putting salt in a wound a bit I guess.

It doesn't irritate me that he said something like that, it irritates me that I can't think of a single reason why it isn't a well deserved comment.  

by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't care
how bad a team is, it is unprofessional to ridicule that team or its players.  If you are getting paid to do something, then you are a professional and should act like one.  I'm not talking about good-natured jesting or even a simple recitation of facts, but ridicule crosses a line that I don't think should be crossed.  Some of the worst offenders in this area are former players.  You would think they know how a guy feels out there, but sometimes they make up for a lack of skill in the booth by taking cheap shots.

There... I've said my piece and now I will get off of my soapbox.    

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 13, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

can't recall
our broadcasters ever ridiculing another team's player. seems unprofessional, but can't say kip didn't earn it.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, i've heard dan and al
do stuff like that. i don't think they go so far as to say, "tick, tick, boom." but, remember kyle farnsworth?

by ortic jones on Sep 13, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

see thats why i was asking
cause i dont get cardinal games regular anymore but when i do this yr or even other broadcasters io havent heard the slams like that..however he backs it with fact

and very complimentary to the cards bullpen

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cairo
If Tony PHs for Cairo who do you think he will use?  Taguchi is my guess.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Pitchers
At this point I only consider STL having 5 pitchers we can count on.
  1. Wainer
  2. Looper
  3. Franklin
  4. Izzy
  5. Springer
The rest are so inconsistent it is not even funny.  I don't like to argue who is better because it is like arguing what would you rather have chickenpox or strepthroat.

It is pointless to argue because both would suck to have.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:58 PM EDT reply actions  

someone who agrees with me..
several weeks ago in the reyes vs whoever deabte i said it was lieking picking the lesser of evils..doesnt matter..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

punchinjudy
I seem to remember that post.  It is a few weeks later and I thought I should point it out.  I think arguing about pitching at this point is pointless.  

Let's all argue about the line up use.

  1. Albert nees to sit out a few days.  Let him play the Cubs series because after that the Cards should be further out.  At that point Albert can get some rest.  The only reason Albert needs to play is if he has to up his stats to get more $$$
  2. Stop playing Cairo and Branyon now.  Those two will not be with the team next year so stop playing them.
  3. I want to see Brendan Ryan in every game unless he is hurt.  
  4. Why not play Barden?  I don't see how he has a future with the big club but might as well see what he looks like I guess.
I guess I am done.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pujols
You know TLR will play him the Brewers series to "play the game the right way" and not lay down for Milwaukee.  That said, he should sit out most of the games against the Phillies, Astros and Pirates.
C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think lineup is different
Because we all see ways the lineup could improve with tweaks here and there. Not many here clamor for A.miles hes been servicable but i think when Ryan was hot it was rediculous to sit him..

i could be wrong but when the seem to be mor differences in positions p[layers than our vast array fo sub par pitchers

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm
i would rather have chicken pox and strep throat than watch some of the so-called pitchers we've trotted out there.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

i doubt that
my brother had both at the same time he was seriously ill..but kinda like th epitching..except he recovered..actually ahd pox inside the viruses melded together somehow
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why is Cairo getting all these AT BATS?
It's the 8th inning Tony, you just used a infielder to PH.  Why the hell not use Taguchi to PH.  You saving him to PH for whom in the 9th?
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Ankiel just forgot how many outs there were
AGAIN.  What is going on in that guys head?
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:07 PM EDT reply actions  

not alot
since the HGH stuff he hasnt been as hot at all.
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Circus music
nothing but circus music
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 14, 2007 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

TLRS move...didnt see it mentioned here
Brantley did question a move TLR made and I can't say i blame him..when the walked Enc. and left Kip in to face the guy who doubled to make it 3-1. They were certain a lefty was coming in..and would back their critisism with complements for TLRs record but called the move odd since the guy was already 2-2 against kip..

i wish i could have called and said its because Crazy tony is back.

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:08 PM EDT reply actions  

wooo!
jimmy, again! >_>

by Pujols on Sep 13, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

First non sac fly
that is our first non sac fly run

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

*&%^ the heck?
we're not just going to slink quietly away?

c'mon ludwick!

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

They're still...
fighting. Even if an acute shortage of talent is dragging everything down...
Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Yadi
Why hit Yadi?  He is a DP waiting to happen.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:15 PM EDT reply actions  

is this place
a dome like the metrodome in Minn. where they open the doors and get the wind blowing in when we are at bat? WTF?!?!?
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"- Leroy Satchel Paige

http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html

by Supergus on Sep 13, 2007 3:16 PM EDT reply actions  

woo
swept by arizona and cinci.

by Pujols on Sep 13, 2007 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Gotta love
A road trip with 0 wins.  Lost 9 in a row now away from Busch--means the last week of the season could be a real downer.
C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

ahhhhh
brutal.  i have tickets to tomorrow night's game and don't even want to go.

by bdub78 on Sep 13, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll take em
Ill take them off your hands ;)

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah
as soon as i posted that i wanted to take it back.

of course i will be going.  

the problem is, one of my buddies was running his mouth off about two months ago about how the brewers were a lock to win the central and i said i thought the cubs had a better chance.  he gave me 5 to 1 odds on a $40 bet, so it is tough to root to be a spoiler.  

nonetheless, i decided to suck it up.  another year of disappointment for the flubs is worth 200 bones.

by bdub78 on Sep 13, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

DAMN EMOTIONAL PULLING!!
Why do they have to give me so many ups and downs?  WHY!!!....Ugg expect me to follow every remaining game....and feel like crap doing it.

by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Cubs & Brewers
Can the Cubs and Brewers please lose tonight.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Brewers don't play
we lost even more ground to them.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

How are we the only Major League team in
baseball that can't turn long flyballs into HRs in this park?
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT reply actions  

re: magic number
it's somewhere around 24.  

Please don't ask me why I know that.  :-)

by SmashedAtoms on Sep 13, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe we can get Larry to put the Elimination
number up on the sidebar or something.  Get a solid countdown going.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

This team, in the season's eleventh hour ...
is revealing its true nature. It's only fitting, really. The time for teasing and stoking the fires of expectation is over.

by Urban Pawnee on Sep 13, 2007 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

They are dead tired
and their bench has been zapped.  They lost 2 power hitting OF (however maligned) in the span of 2 weeks (Duncan and Enc).  No way should Miguel Cairo and Russell Branyan be getting the ABs they are but in situations like the 8th and 9th inning, not having a healthy Duncan or Encarnacion dooms this team.

They were never a great baseball team but they are running on fumes right now pitching and hitting-wise.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

True natue?
Mulder and Edmonds are diminshed. Duncan, Rolen, Enc, and Carpenter are out. You can't remove that quantity of talent from a team and expect it to win anything.

Last Sunday we fielded a team of Stinnett, Cairo, Ryan, Branyan, Schumaker, Taguchi, Ludwick, and Brad Thompson. The baseball gods don't like that.

Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Sep 13, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

hopefully the cubs win tonight
so we can go five back, give them sole posession, and then kick their asses this weekend.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 13, 2007 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Cubs Series
I will wait to see how STL does in the Cubs series.  If they lay an egg, I will officially become a Brewers fan til the end of the season.

I will still follow the Cards but try to not to get too emotionally attached.

Heck maybe all the Cards need is some good ol' home cookin to get things going again.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

even if they are out of it
id love to see them stick it to the cubs my bro is a cubs fan but only talks baseball with me when they beat the cards so the last 2 yrs hes talked alot of smack..if they could cost them the div itd be great
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man I'm NOT looking forward to this series
I'm gonna catch hell at work after we get swept.

by sdrone on Sep 13, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah, just tell 'em
our guys can't see the ball very well with the sun glinting off their World Series rings.

by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm going to both games
this saturday and for some reason i'm not that excited...

by tnek5 on Sep 13, 2007 3:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Rack up another loss to Tony
He leaves Kip in today when he's clearly struggling yet still has the game tied.  Tony should know that Kip doesn't do well when his pitch count gets into the 90's.  And in Arizona he takes Kip out with only 59 pitches when he was still looked dominant.  If he changed those two decisions, we likely would have 2 more games.  I feel sorry for our pitchers.  I don't care if they aren't doing well.  It must be hell working for a maniac.

by nycardfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:28 PM EDT reply actions  

The cowboy
essentialy said the same thing when it was 1-1..they were leary(SP?) to ? TLR due to his record but leaving kip in to face a guy who was 2-2 that day and not bringing in a lefty was odd..Crazy tony..I didnt miss him I sowered on tony in Det when DUNC was ailing and he played him in the OF and not DH..then he was ok fo ra bit then he returned..its weird hwo in their skids he always returns for a few games we can say hmm thsi non move could have changed the whole game who knows
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow
we could fall into 4th place if we keep this up

by Pujols on Sep 13, 2007 3:40 PM EDT reply actions  

If not careful
Even last place is a possibility, though a more remote one.
C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tony
Here is my only complaint.

If we have a starting pitcher go 4 innings and only allow 1 run, Tony needs to yank his butt.  There is only one starting pitcher who has proven over a season he does not implode out of no where.  That is Wainwright.  I thought the AZ move was good, don't ever get greedy with Kip and 90% of the staff.  Besides Wainer, Franklin, Izzy, and Springer our pitchers have show they have the ability to go to crap really fast.  Tony needs to start yanking guys. I don't care how they look.  Our pitchers have not earned the right to be give extra hitters.  If they are giving you more than you expected pull em.  There is enough data to prove it.  

Tony seems to get this soft side where he does not want to "hurt feeling" or "create wins".  This is not an individual game.  Your pitcher have no confidence anyway.  I think 4 innings would make Kip feel great at this point.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

6 BB?
Great googly moogly thats a lot of walks in 4 2/3

by brindled on Sep 13, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions  

10 hits, 6 walks
that's awful.
10-time World Champs!

by TheFranchise9 on Sep 13, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously though,
was TLR paying attention to the game today? Jeeze, I was on gamecast and blindly see what was going on with Kippy-Boy. If I can sense this on a computer generated gamecast several hundred miles away while at work, why can TLR not sense it while standing 75 feet away from the mound? Someone please help me out here.
Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Sep 13, 2007 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

How many innings is the pen handling over
the last month?

Is TLR maybe trying desperately here and there to wring an inning or 2 from the starter instead of letting everyone but Wainwright pitch 4 innings then destroying the pen?

by sdrone on Sep 13, 2007 4:42 PM EDT reply actions  

SDRONE
SDRONE-

I believe you hit the nail on the head.  Ok the pen has a lot of pitchers people will say.  That it is a ridiculos statement because I can think of guys that I do not want to see on the mound in a critical game.  Too bad there is no way you can have starters only last four innings and use your best bullpen guys on a daily basis.  TLR needs to squeeze innings out of someone.  Someone needs to step it up asap!!!!

Guys I don't want to see pitch.

  1. Cavazos
  2. Falkenborg
  3. Flores
  4. Jimenez
  5. Maroth
Now your bullpen has a lot less guys when this group is tossed out.  

What can TLR really do?  His starters have been flat out awful.  The manager has absolutely nothing they can do when starters consistently can not give 4+ innings of work.  It has been the story all year and it catches up to a team.  

I think people bashing TLR are kind of overlooking the main problem.  The starters are not eating up enough innings.  4 innings out of a starter is pathetic.  It can happen from time to time but it has been the trend this year.  

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's true, but...
something has to be done to stop the bleeding. actually there are no capable starters for 3 of the 5 starting slots, than we have to go with the bullpen and have bullpen games.

if the starter implodes we have to go to the bullpen anyway, but pitching a lost game is probably more wearing and disappointing than pitching while winning

so why not use the bullpen to manufacture one win and go from there?

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Sep 13, 2007 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I respectfully disagree
Your point is generally valid, but not in the context of THIS game.

Kip had given up 6 hits and 5 walks after 4.0 innings, for a WHIP of 2.75.  TWO POINT SEVEN FIVE!  That's worse than awful.  It was unbelievable luck that he only had one run scored on him by that point.

When the 5th opened with a leadoff double (bringing his awesome WHIP to an even 3.0!), everyone paying attention was screaming for the hook.  Kip simply had NOTHING this entire game.  And, predictably, the fully expected implosion occurred in the 5th when Tony refused to pull him.

Now I know our bullpen has some real lemons, but damn near anyone would be an improvement over today's Kip (a 3.0 WHIP?!?).  Especially if you can use matchups to further tilt the odds (e.g., Dunn and Votto, etc).

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thompson's pitching
I've had heard a lot today about Reyes and Wells.  But what about Thompson today?

Thompson's line:  2 IP, 13 pitches with 11 strikes, 5-1 GO-FO

Since Thompson hasn't given up more than 3 runs in the majority of his starts, and looking at his great stats today, I wonder if we would have won that game if he had been our starter?  

I also wonder where we would be if they had just left Thompson in the rotation when he was still pitching fairly well (better than any of the others)?  Bernie reported that Thompson's ERA in his last 6 starts was somewhere in the mid to upper 3.00 range.

This is no surprise, but I think Thompson needs a little more love.

by nycardfan on Sep 13, 2007 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I would finish the year with this rotation
Wainwright
Looper
Pinero
Thompson
Reyes

Move Mulder to the pen where he can get his work without the risk of stretching him out too much.

Wells seems to be an effective reliever.  Make the most of him we can.

by DriverZn on Sep 13, 2007 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's what they should do too.
Don't be surprised if they don't.  And Don't be surprised if they sign Wells again for next year.   They do like his stuff you know.

by jillsinmo on Sep 13, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1
Agree completely.

Although I wouldn't be opposed to having Mulder pitch some "live" innings out of the bullpen in non-critical games.

I think doing so would probably benefit Mulder more than "just" bullpen sessions.  But to start him seems foolhardy to me.  His focus should be on recovery and regaining his mechanics at this point, not doing "whatever it takes" to win a game.  That's asking for an injury or a setback in his rehab.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is it just the injury?
Is that why people want Anthony Reyes starting instead of Mark Mulder?

Anthony Reyes last 2 starts:
4.1 IP
8 Hits
7 ER
3 BB
3 K
4 HR
2.68 WHIP
15.36 ERA

Mark Mulder last 2 starts:
8 IP
15 Hits
11 ER
4 BB
3 K
3 HR
2.37 WHIP
12.38

They are both pretty bad but Mulder's ability to log innings more than anything makes him a more viable candidate at this point.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

So 2 starts of 4 IP per start
constitutes an "ability to log innings"?  I mean maybe on this team, but not generally.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mostly, yes
I am not worried about Reyes hurting himself throwing 90-100 pitches a start.  As long as tony doesn't get pissed off and yank him early that should get you 5 or 6ip.

Reyes has had a lot of starts where he would give up 3 in an inning and then put up several 0's.  But new tony pulls him as soon as he has a bad inning, completly ignoring his past of bouncing back from them during a game.

Yes I want to protect Mulder
Yes I want to give Reyes every chance.  

Not like we are still playing meaningfull games.

by DriverZn on Sep 14, 2007 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not "just" the injury...
but that's certainly part of it.  Mulder clearly needs more rehab/conditioning work, and I think there's more risk than benefit when starting him with the big club at this point.  He's not even close to "real game" starter status.  I can see him throwing from the pen, though.  I think that's typically the "best practice" for returns from surgery like this, isn't it?

I simply see more value in getting a few more starts out of Reyes for evaluation purposes (trade or keep this offseason?), versus seeing more Mulder, which we already know will be a big part of 2008 one way or another.  Anthony's starts may/(are likely to) all suck, but the kid won't learn to fix his starting woes in the bullpen, and we can't banish him to Memphis anymore. <smirk> His peripherals are still tantalizing, so we need to decide whether he's worth hanging onto, or whether he's trade fodder.  Fish or cut bait time.  

It's clear we ain't winnin' the Central this year (despite the team's laudable efforts with the recent tease before this 7 game losing streak), so again, my opinion is that our priority should be on maximizing our value for 2008.  And I see greater upside in giving Reyes more starts than Mulder at this point.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 14, 2007 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mark Mulder has much more of a chance
being a starting big league pitcher next year than Anthony Reyes does, especially with the st. Louis Cardinals.

If anyone should be getting evalutation starts, it is Mulder.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 14, 2007 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

this is possibly true
but very sad that the season has come down to that sort of debate..no love for welly? haha what about TJ as a starter or izzy he used to be one in the mets orginization..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Sep 14, 2007 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's true
remember Mulder should be in spring training not in the middle of a pennant race.  We're judging Mulder as if he's 100%.  It really has been unfortunate.  It' not unfortunate that he's playing right now--he needs the practice for next year.  It's unfortunate that people are making decisions about what he may give us next year based on what is basically rehab work.  And there is no way that TLR and Duncan are thinking of Reyes as having close to the potential upsides of Mulder.

by nycardfan on Sep 14, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

No argument on THAT...
In fact, to my mind, Mulder's role next year isn't even a question...it's a given.

As such, why should Mulder get an "evaluation start" when he's already inked in as a big part of 2008?

Anthony, on the other hand, is on the bubble.  That's why I feel it would be better to see more innings out of him in the few games remaining.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 14, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

terry ryan fired
..jocketty is from minnesota. not sayin', just sayin'.
Future Redbirds

by erik on Sep 13, 2007 6:20 PM EDT reply actions  

LaDuncJock
They have taken this team to the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 years, winning two pennants, and one World Series.  Every team goes through its rough stretches.  Keep in mind that many of the injuries this team has seen this year have nothing to do with player selection, and more to do with bad luck.  This team has overachieved incredibly this year, and I, for one, truly appreciate the effort we have seen (including that of the leadership).    

A team that has gone through what the 2007 Cardinals have been through has no business being in contention in September regardless how bad the division is.  I think, more than in most recent years, we got to see in St. Louis a team that truly shows what it means to play Cardinals' Baseball.  They played a hard nine the whole season.  Very few of their losses can be chalked up to lack of trying.  I am proud of their character, their toughness, and their perseverance.  I believe this team has a bright future, whether it be with LaRussa or with Oquendo.  

Okay, now stop losing and go beat those damn cubbies!

"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert

by BigMOman on Sep 13, 2007 6:24 PM EDT reply actions  

they'll have to go 14-4 the rest of the way
just to equal last year's win total.

So basically they'll have to be awesome and the Cubs and Brewers will have to be Capuano at the same time.

Yes...Capuano is a synonym for stinky.

by Petkovsek on Sep 13, 2007 7:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Glass if half full
Just think, we could have been like the Cubs last year.  They won 66 game and lost 96!  We had worse luck than they did last year and battled more injuries.  So I would not say anything too bad.  

Like BigMOman said.  The Cards have had a lot of success under this group of management.  Count your blessings.  You could be the Cubs, since Larussa took over the Cubs have been to the play offs 2 times? 1998 they got in by winning a play in game and got smoked by the Braves in round 1.  In 2003 they got in and had their hearts torn out by the Marlins!

I will take a bad year.  I think the only real offseason issue I need solved is the pitching.  I think position player wise we are OK.  

by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 7:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Today's game
I can't help but wonder.  Will the reminder of losing Josh by making up the game postponed by his death bring us further down, or provide a spark.  Could playing this game have been on the minds of this team all week?    

by crdfn4evr on Sep 14, 2007 8:13 AM EDT reply actions  

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