Begin in the Pen

by t7rick on Sep 13, 2007 3:53 AM EDT Comment 9 comments

Should young potential starters begin in the pen?

I have hit on this subject in past posts, however, I wanted to get everyone's opinion on this particular subject.

It seems (although I don't have a lot of evidence) that having a young pitcher come out of the pen for a year or so may be able to help him as a starter. My reasoning is as follows.

Less immediate exposure. This method would allow the young pitcher to learn to pitch to big league hitters without being overexposed or pitching through the lineup multiple times.
Situational experience. It would allow the young pitcher to be put in tough situations, and allow him to understand how to adjust his mindset to that particular situation.
Dominate attitude. Success (which would be a prerequisite to moving into the rotation) would allow the young pitcher to trust his stuff and mold his attitude so that when starting, he will know the situation and be able to cope with it after he inevitably gets himself into a jam.

This is just some of the reasoning that I think that has attributed to Wainwrights' success. I think his early season struggles resulted mostly from his stamina, or lack thereof, hurting the effectiveness of his pitches. After mid-season, he put it all together. I really do believe that his dominant role in the bullpen, and then as closer, helped him to develop the mental fortitude necessary to the success he now enjoys. I only have one other case study and that is Johan Santana. He spent a significant time in the bullpen and was dominant there before his move to the rotation. (To be fair both pitchers I have talked about have awesome "stuff", especially Santana, and I do think that one would have to show dominance in the bullpen to be considered for the move into the rotation.)

I write this mainly because I wonder, is this a good system to use with young pitchers? Would it work to get Reyes his confidence and dominant form back? Would a year in the bullpen benefit him? What do you guys think?

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perhaps a taste

not a full year. bullpen pitchers and starters are sometimes (not always) different animals. our own anthony reyes, whatever his struggles, is more of a starter than a reliever, if only because of his long warm-up time. the pen also tends to focus pitchers on their best one or two pitches, which with rare exception isn't enough to carry a starter.

however, if we had a pretty good idea who was going to get a look in ST next year as a starter, i would hope that they get a september callup, and naturally in most years when there is a rotation, they would be sent to the pen for duty there.

i think wainwright was a special case who would have success in just about any situation. he's got stuff and smarts, a good combination for a starter, but that curvefastball combo can be so wicked when he only has to worry about one or two innings that batters think he has his own custom laws of physics.

Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 7:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Reyes' long warm-up time

His fragility is relatively rare among young pitchers, I'm not sure a broad argument should be made against this approach based on his limitations.

As impatient as I am to see young talent make it in the bigs, I have to say that I do like the psychological approach to starting out in the 'pen. But it depends on the need of the individual - if, like Anthony, they need to prove that they have a major league "out" pitch, then the bullpen is perfect. If they already have incredible stuff, though, and need to learn how to approach the same lineup three different ways in the same game, then bullpen work will hinder their development.

A lot of today's young starters are not being brought up this way - Justin Verlander, Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Brandon Webb ... none of these guys has spent any significant time pitching in relief. But looking at a guy like Rich Hill who has only one plus pitch (curveball), he had to spend time both in the bullpen and bouncing between the majors and minors before he put it together.

by taiko on Sep 13, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rich Hill has had an ugly time back and forth

between the minors-I'd take him on my team, even with some of the ups and downs he still has. Ask the Cubs if they're glad they were patient with him......

by jillsinmo on Sep 13, 2007 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Reyes long warm up time may be just one of

those random things Tony throws out--his pitching coach in the minors said on 590-FAN that Anthony takes no more time than any of his other pitchers to warm up.

by jillsinmo on Sep 13, 2007 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

where to start?

Im not sure Reyes has developed any confidence or dominant form at the big league level to "get back" by pitching out of the pen, but I know what you're suggesting. I think it depends a great deal on the pitcher in question and thats not a cop out

Most of the dominant relievers were starters at some point until guys like Fingers and Gossage reversed that trend somewhat....how many dominant starters began careers working in the pen?

Are there general pitching stats out there (unknown to me) that would help make a case for your supposition.

Youth movement or not, I want Carpenter, Speezio JEd and Rolen back in '08...yeah, those old guys that play the game like pros.

by cardschinmusic on Sep 13, 2007 7:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

not sure

Like I said, I only know of Wainwright and Santana. I don't know a way to look it up unless I just look at the yearly stats of each pitcher.

Cards fan banished to NH

by t7rick on Sep 13, 2007 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's strange is the Wells

has been excellent in long relief out of the pen (ERA below 2.00). Watching him start, you'd think he has confidence problems but then why does he do so well from the pen? He said yesterday that he thinks it has to do with a different mindset. He's much more agrressive from the pen-throwing fastballs (around 94 MPH) and not worrying about finesse. He just has a different attitude.

I don't think this would work for Reyes though. And I agree that he needs more warm up time.

by nycardfan on Sep 13, 2007 10:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well may think he needs to pace himself

When he starts. In relief he just lets it fly. His stuff is good enough thats a workable approach for him. When he throws strikes with his good fastball, he is effective. When he tries to trick hitters it all falls apart.

by DriverZn on Sep 13, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs