Are the Winds of Change upon us? (TLR, Dunc, Jocketty)

by philbobilbo on Sep 10, 2007 5:57 AM EDT

While I realize this season is far from over, we all know how mentally draining this season has been for Cardinal fans. I can't even begin to imagine what it's been like for LaRussa, Duncan and Jocketty.

That said, I'm wondering out loud whether any of the three noted above will return next year. No, I'm not saying they'll be removed; perhaps the events that have transpired this season will be enough for any or all of these three to determine they're ready to move on.

I think there's a correlation here to when Whitey hung it up; matter of fact, I think Herzog bailed in a situation that was nowhere NEAR as life-sapping as what our Big Three have been through this (and last) season.

Look forward to everyone's thoughts.

NOTE: I'm not advocating letting any of the three go; I just know this: if I were in their shoes, I'd be looking long and hard at whether or not I wanted to come back next year.

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Who wants to go out like this?

Even after all they have been through the team is still in the race. Next year should be a brezze compared to this one. We can get everyone healthy and have a full year of Ankiel & the Memphis Mafia. Not to mention maybe we will see the Springfield Mafia show up mid year. I would want to be a part of that wouldn't you?

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Sep 10, 2007 9:48 AM EDT reply actions

Red

I understand what you are saying. I am not sure I would want to walk away with this as my last year. I was thinking that personally I would be a wreck physically and in every other way.

A season like this must take a lot out of you. I have no idea how Dave, Walt, and Tony feel. I know that taking a year off might be nice.

Walt has club option for next year, and I think Dave has another year. Tony is not signed after this year. It might be the right time.

If I was the owner and Tony wanted to stay I would sign him, but if he wanted out I would not even try to talk him out of it.

I would interview Joe Girardi, Terry Pendalton, Jose Oquendo, Bob Brenly, and Davey Johnson among others. I always liked Johnson.

by nybirdfan on Sep 10, 2007 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions

If they do return,

I hope they do something to justify why they're still in town. We need some change this offseason. I'm sick of uninspired, replacement-level players. I still think the only reason we're in this playoff race is from the excitement that players like Ankiel and Ryan have brought this club at the end of the year.

WJ,TLR,Dunc, need to learn that it's time to invest in young, exciting talent. That, or pitching.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Sep 10, 2007 11:35 AM EDT reply actions

So you're saying that

Ankiel and Ryan are just the type change you need for next year! heh.

by sdrone on Sep 10, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Good call

It makes me snicker when people call for TLR and WJ's jobs because they don't use young talent, when most of our current starters ARE that young talent.

by roebirds on Sep 10, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

They use young talent only when they have to

As in no other choices left.

To avoid Reyes starting we:
Signed Ponson
Traded for Maroth.

To keep JRod from starting we:
Signed Juan
Signed PW

To keep Ryan from starting we:
Signed Cairo.

In every one of those cases the player we signed was a worse $ / cost options. In all cases but one they performed worse. Juan/Jrod was probably a wash.

Why isn't Hoff up here to play 2nd?
Why not give Perez a chance? He cannot be worse than the relievers we ran out there today.

by DriverZn on Sep 10, 2007 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Forgot

To avoid starting Thompson:
We signed Wells.

by DriverZn on Sep 10, 2007 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions

heh

you're really ripping the pen?

Franklin, Percival, Springer and Izzy are all veterans with WHIPs under 1.00

And Cairo's had 14 at bats this season with the Cards, so that points pretty much wrong too.

I'll concede PW was an unnecessary signing, but you had to know that J-Rod was not going to be looked at for a starting spot, so Juan wasn't really signed to keep J-Rod out of the lineup either.

The best way to look at it is that they've tried to rely too long on veterans who don't have it in the rotation. That's why Wells has started so many games and that's why Mulder and Marquis started so many last year.

As far as the Maroth pickup, at the time NONE of our pitchers were doing anything positive. In addition, around that time was the one time I agree with how they handled Reyes. Maroth was acquired on June 22nd. Reyes was given two started (the 22nd and 27th) before being dropped out of the rotation. He had hit a low of 0-10 with a 6.40 ERA.

When he was called back up, he's 2-3 with a 4.26 ERA. As much as they've messed with this kids psyche, getting him down to Memphis where he could get some confidence was actually probably a good idea.

by mtalken on Sep 10, 2007 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Well

"To keep JRod from starting we:
Signed Juan"

Juan is only two years older than JRod!

Hello, playoff mosey

by Alxfritz on Sep 11, 2007 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions

juan ... cost / benefit

The point of the jrod / juan comparison is money: jrod league minimum / juan 4 mill per. Going with a league average vet is costly especially when said vet has no real upside. In Juan's defense, he delivered the league average stats we expected. Wells, OTOH, ... well, you all know what happened with that signing.

by jjray on Sep 11, 2007 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions

and j-rod didn't, hasn't, and won't

put up those numbers. there's something to say for ACTUALLY doing something in the majors, as opposed to having people speculate that you might one day do it. Juan DID NOT hurt the team with his steady, solid play and was not overpaid.

by willievinceterry on Sep 11, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

Sigh

Rolen has been ineffective (at the plate). Edmonds has been ineffective. Kennedy turned out as badly as possible. The rotation has been a clusterf***. Pretty much nobody on this team has been healthy and performing all year outside of the back end of the bullpen. One of our relievers died.

And yet, we're almost a .500 team. If anything, the coaching staff is doing a fantastic job, in my opinion.

by mojowo11 on Sep 10, 2007 6:53 PM EDT reply actions

100% agree

Even in the pathetic NL central its amazing that we can sniff .500

The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Sep 11, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions

The biggest risk of LaDuncetty returning is

that they will turn Carpenter/Mulder into our version of Wood/Prior-always waiting for the stars to return and be stars. Not a particularly wise way to build a pitching staff with the uncertainty of recovery. I mean they said Mulder was going to be back in July, and Carpenter next July. If I'm skeptical, how can they not be? They sure don't act like it.......

by jillsinmo on Sep 10, 2007 10:00 PM EDT reply actions

WHAT?

Who's to say anyone else would look at them differently? They're two of the best starting pitchers this decade, and they've made a total of ONE post-surgery start. They HOPED Mulder would be back in July. Had other options in the rotation come anywhere close to what people predicted (Reyes and Wells, in particular), Mulder hardly would have been an issue. Carpenter was unforeseen.

And again, I think it's condescending and borderline insulting to refer to three of the best at what they do as "LaDuncetty." Ask the fans of nearly ANY other major league baseball team how well their manager/GM/pitching coach over the last decade. Will any of them honestly be able to say theirs have done a BETTER job? This is all about Reyes...

by willievinceterry on Sep 11, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree on lawhatever

I hate the LaManager, LaDuncetty, LaDrunker or what ever else people say using the La in front of it, use his initials if you don't want to type the entire name but I seriously doubt that Jocketty feels forced to consult with TLR on every move he makes and while Duncan has a big influence on the pitching staff it is still TLR who makes the bullpen calls. They are three separate and very good at what they do people and do deserve more respect then what people give them. I think TLR should leave if he doesn't want to develop but that doesn't mean I think he did a bad job, someone at stltoday just said that Tony has the best winning stretch since the 40's so I went to baseball reference and sure enough of managers with over 5 years with the team (I didn't bother with 1-2 year wonders) he has the best winning percentage, better then Torre (sub .500 for him even) better then Whitey who was better then Red who took 14 years to reach his win total verus Tony's 12. Our best manager ever was Charlie Comiskey from 1883-1891 who had a .673 winning percentage (better then all the 1 year wonders too) then Billy Southworth from 1929-1945 with a .642 then Eddie Dyer 1946-1950 .578 and Frankie Frisch 1933-1938 .564 and finally Tony LaRussa 12yrs 1996-2007 1921g 1046W 875L .545

We need to respect him but that doesn't mean that he isn't done managing here, the longest tenured Cardinal Manger by years is Red (yes those 14 years includes the times he took over for Whitey) and by games it is Red but after that it is TLR. As a last aside only 1 cardinal manager has won 2 world series championships and that was Southworth. Comiskey leads in pennants with 4 (Herzog and Southworth have 3, Tony Red and Gabby Street have 2 the most major difference here is that Tony has 7 post season appearances where each of those guys won the Pennant every time they went)

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't want to sound contrary

but do you really think the Cardinals put the best product they could out on the field this year, including the '06 offseason and trades throughout this season?

I don't, the talent level on this squad is definetely lower and moves have been made by all of these guys that show they have a hand in our poor record this year.

Walt had a poor offseason...it can only be poor when Preston Wilson, Kip Wells, and Adam Kennedy are your main FA acquisitions. We failed to address any payroll issues at the trade deadline. This team obviously needed help and we failed to address any of our needs by either giving up and cutting salary (looking forward) or trading off some of our strength to improve our weakness (maybe trading bullpen help.) He wasn't awful...but he couldn't have earned more than a C on the season.

TLR seems to have fueled more controversy this year than he has put out. Between the DUI, the All-Star feud with Pujols (seriously, Rowand over Albert, Tony?) and how he has handled both the Hancock tragedy and the Ankiel news have hurt this team more than helped it, at least in my opinion. He seems to have failed to motivate this team, although I would cut him a break cause the team just isn't very good.

Duncan has hardly been the pitching guru this year. Both TLR and Duncan wanted Kip Wells this year as a reclamation project...that has been a HUGE failure, and I am sure it burns cause Kippy is their boy, their project. The Looper transformation has been an overall success, but he hasn't exactly been a Cy Young candidate, so let's not go too overboard with that praise. Their handling of Reyes, regardless of what you think about the kid, was absurd. They both gave him NO chance to succeed, and he actually did fairly well considering the adversity he faced from his own coaches.

I say all of this to say...well, these guys have all been good in the past, great even, but they haven't had the magic this year, for whatever reason. Walt didn't get much talent, and even the talent TLR and Dunc targeted went down the toilet. This is a bad team, and these three guys deserve as much blame this year for it as the praise they received from 2004-06.

Let me get this straight...Rowand over Pujols??? Really, Tony?

by cardzfan24 on Sep 11, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions

That's a very good reminder

I've used "LaDunc" a number of times, and you're right, it isn't respectiful and it often leads to lazy arguments as well. You''ve conviced me--I'm going to stop doing that from now on.

by nycardfan on Sep 11, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions

They are referred to

as a psuedo-single entity because they've been together for so long. It's not a pot-shot. It's an indicator that given their lengthy tenures sometimes differentiating between who made what decision can be difficult.

I think you are making way to much out of it.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions

+1

by bigmcq16 on Sep 12, 2007 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions

Duncan maybe

Ok I will give you LaDunc that one is a good one for how they manage/coach and have been together for so long but throwing Jocketty in there as well just seems wrong to me, 12 years is a long time but not the same as the time Dunc has been with him.

by StLHugo on Sep 12, 2007 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions

My big worry

about TLR & Walt leaving is that it wouldn't suprise me one bit if DeWitt just replaces them with "yes men" that will basically run the club for as cheap as possible with out any complaints.

Basically what David Glass has done with the Royals for over the last decade.

I think DeWitt is just happy to get a championship and is getting ready to start the phase of selling the team over the next 3-4 years.

I could be wrong but this is what I see happening. And if Walt & Tony goes I doubt DeWitt is going to spend too much on free agents. And he we will see either Oquendo or one of the Minor League managers come up to manage.
And we will basically turn into the Pirates/Royals/Cardinals of 1990-95.

by KYCards on Sep 11, 2007 6:40 PM EDT reply actions

What evidence do we have that Walt is cheap?

I just don't see any. What free agent did we miss out on because of $$$ that turned out to be worth their contract?

by DriverZn on Sep 11, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh, but the Royals are changing the way they

do things with their new general manager. I see .500 for them in the near future. Small steps, before leaps and bounds, but they are quietly stock piling a large number of quality young players on the team and in the minors. The trick will be if they can keep the players, and if they can't, if they can turn them in for better players from other teams.

by jillsinmo on Sep 11, 2007 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Tony wants to stay with Dunc

"I don't see a whole lot of alternatives," he said. "There are not a lot of places that I could go manage. People wonder where I'm going to manage. The real question is where is Dave (Duncan) going to be the pitching coach? And find out if they need a manager. Because I want to sign on there."

Duncan has a contract with the Cardinals through 2008.

by StLHugo on Sep 12, 2007 7:46 AM EDT reply actions