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Around SBN: FSU To Big 12 'Inevitable,' According To Report

some questions and answers at the all-star break

1. how often has a la russa-managed team rallied from an all-star deficit of 7.5 games or more to make the playoffs?
once. the 2001 cardinals reached the break in 3d place at 43-43, trailing the cubs by 8 games and the 2d-place astros by 5. as late as september 7 they were still in 3d place, 6.5 games back. at that point they went on a 9-game winning streak (which began right before the september 11 attacks and resumed after baseball's week-long hiatus), followed that up with a 6-game streak, and finished the season tied with houston for the national league's best record. chicago finished 3d.

three other la russa teams overcame lesser deficits. the 1992 oakland athletics were 2 games back of the defending champion twins at the all-star break, with a 51-36 record; they went on to win the division by 6 games. the '89 athletics were in 2d place, 1.5 games back of the angels with a 52-36 record; they took the crown by 7 games. and tony's first playoff team, the 1983 white sox, were 3.5 games behind and in 3d place at the all-star break, with a 40-37 record; they blew past the angels and rangers in the 2d half to win the division by 20 games.

tony has never led a team from a sub-.500 record at the all-star break to a playoff berth. that leads to question #2:

2. how many teams have gone on to make the playoffs after reaching the all-star break with a sub.-500 record?
i only checked back to 1995, the beginning of the wild-card era. three teams did it in the inaugural wild-card year, which you'll recall was strike-shortened: the yankees (30-36), dodgers (34-35), and mariners (34-35) all overcame losing first-half records to play baseball in october. since then, it has only happened twice:

  • the 1997 astros got to the all-star break 2 games under, at 43-45; they were in 2d place behind the division-leading pirates, who were at .500. houston went 41-33 in the second half to win the division with an 84-78 record.
  • the 2003 twins were 44-49 at the all-star break, 7.5 games back of the surprising kansas city royals. they played .667 ball down the stretch to finish with 90 wins and a second straight division title.
three other playoff teams reached the recess at an even .500, all from the nl central: the 2004 astros, 2003 cubs, and aforementioned 2001 cardinals. another nl central team, the 2005 astros, was only one game over at the all-star break (44-43) but went to the world series. so if we want to be hopelessly optimistic about this (and why shouldn't we? we're fans), we could say that in 5 of the last 10 years, an nl central team got to the playoffs despite reaching the all-star break in the rough vicinity of .500. . . . if we want to take a more sober view, we'll acknowledge that only 2 teams have reached the break as far south of .500 as the cardinals and gone on to make the playoffs --- the 2003 twins and 1995 yankees. since the latter took place in a strike year, i don't know how applicable the precedent is. the storyline of the '03 twins is slightly more hopeful, but not much. the twins were chasing a kansas city team that was 10 games over at the break but had a pythagorean record of .500; their luck ran out down the stretch, and they went 32-38. the brewers' record more accurately reflects their real ability (they're only outperforming their pythagorean mark by 1 game), so they are not likely to oblige the cardinals by folding in the 2d half of the schedule.

a couple of teams came close to pulling this off just last season, by the way: the phillies were 7 games under at the all-star break (40-47) and remained in contention until the final week of the season, while the astros (there's that nl central again) got to the recess 3 games under (43-46) and weren't eliminated until the last day.

3. how many games has chris carpenter's absence cost the cardinals?
various ways we can estimate this; the simplest is to look at runs allowed. as a cardinal, carpenter has averaged about 7 innings per start and allowed an average of 2.6 runs (that's total runs, not just earned) per start. to date he has missed 16 starts, which (per the averages) translates into 112 innings pitched and 42 runs allowed. it's impossible to assign those 112 innings to a single replacement pitcher, because the rotation has been such a scramble and because many of the innings carp would have thrown have been picked up by the bullpen. so let's just use the staff average: the cardinals in the first half allowed an average of 65 runs per 112 innings pitched. if we simply take the difference (65 runs minus 42), we can estimate that carpenter's absence has cost the cardinals 23 runs --- approximately 2 games in the standings. to put this another way, if carp had taken his regular turns and all else remained equal, we might expect the cards to have a team era of about 4.32 (which would rank 9th in the league) and have a record of 42-43, 5.5 games out.

here's a second way to look at it. the cardinals have won 66 of carp's 94 starts since 2004; that's a .702 winning percentage. so they could expect to have won 11 of the 16 starts he has missed. how many games did they actually win in those starts? to answer this question, we'll actually have to untangle the rotation and identify the specific replacement starter(s) who pitched in carpenter's stead. for 3 games, it was keisler: they went 2-1 in those starts. then brad thompson took over; the cardinals have gone 8-2 in his 10 starts to date. that takes care of 13 starts, in which the cardinals went 10-3. the remaining 3 starts were picked up by some combination of wells, reyes, and wellemeyer; the cardinals collectively are 10-25 in their starts, so let's just call that 1-2. tally it up, and the team is right where it should be: they've won (roughly tallied) 11 of the 16 starts that carpenter missed, the same number they could have expected to win had he made the starts himself.

if that's a counterintuitive outcome, consider two factors. first, the cardinals scored 66 runs in the 13 starts made by thompson and keisler, or just over 5 runs per game; this, more than the pitching, explains the team's success behind the replacement starters. second, even if carpenter had been healthy, the cardinals still would have had their overall record dragged down by the fruitless starts of kip wells and anthony reyes, and the same combination of bad pitching / bad run support / bad fielding. i think it's extremely unlikely that either of those pitchers would have been dumped from the rotation any sooner had carpenter been pitching; on the contrary, la duncan might have felt more secure in the rotation's stability, and hence might have given greater latitude to the floundering starters. wellemeyer might not have been picked up at all; there wouldn't have been any need to claim him, because thompson would still be in the bullpen.

of course, carp's presence would likely have a ripple effect benefiting the whole pitching staff --- he takes the pressure off the bullpen, the other starters, the offense, everybody. that's a valid argument, and i would tend to agree with it. but the effect of his loss is probably not as dramatic as we might like to think. this team probably would be laboring even if carpenter had been healthy all year.

4. how much has rolen's slump cost the cardinals?
let's start by quantifying the depth of the slump:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB AVG OBP SLG | RC BR
2007 253 35 67 13  2  4 37 29 .265 .342 .379 | 34 35
2006 first half 284 59 94 28  0 14 57 30 .331 .398 .577 | 66 62
1st half career avg 263 43 76 19  1 12 49 34 .287 .375 .500 | 49 49

he's 8 runs and 12 rbi behind his career first-half averages; that's 20 runs right there, or 2 wins. the projections for base runs (BR) and runs created (RC) are consistent but show slightly more modest deficits, on the order of 15 runs. compared to his first half of last season . . . . well, there is no comparison. but there is, alas, an-all-too pertinent comparison between rolen's first half in 2007 and his 2d half in 2006:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB AVG OBP SLG
2007 73 253 35  67 13  2  4 37 29 .265 .342 .379
2006 66 237 35  60 20  1  8 38 26 .253 .333 .447
total 139 492 70 127 33  3 12 75 55 .258 .337 .411

that looks like a typical year from todd zeile, who averaged 17 homers, 74 rbi, and 65 runs scored per 500 at-bats to go along with career averages of .265 / .346 / .423. zeile did have a long and successful career; a team could do much, much worse. but still . . . .

oh by the way, rolen is hitting .190 / .333 / .259 against left-handers this season; second straight year he's had a pronounced reverse split. freaky.

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Rotation and Wonderbrad
Interesting results regarding Carp's absence.  If anything they point to how good Thompson has been for us.  I would hope that if Carp was never hurt, Thompson would've gotten those starts instead of Wellemeyer or Reyes.  Personally, I don't know why we don't consider Brad as important as a prospect as Reyes.

On that front, Tony's "competition" apparently has ended and he kept Brad in the rotation and replaced Wellemeyer with Wells.  

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/83733F46C352AE1A862573130012DDDB ?OpenDocument

Hard to argue with Wells' bullpen performance beyond the fact that it is in relief.   Let's hope it continues.  I think Wellemeyer also deserves some thanks for not being a complete bust and saving us from complete ruin.  I think his strong arm could really help in the bullpen too.

by enoscountry on Jul 9, 2007 6:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Ugh...
...whatever happened to backing the winning horse?

This Kip Wells thing just leave me with a sick feeling and a poor taste in my mouth...

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jul 9, 2007 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

the "competition" continues
because either thompson or wells will have to step aside once carpenter returns.

by lboros on Jul 9, 2007 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am worried yet glad to be.
I am worried about what will happen when Carp comes back, who gets bumped, who is cut from the active roster, what is going to happen.  I am glad that is a problem to worry about though, Wells isn't an automatic throwaway right now, though he could be soon and Wellemeyer is pretty darn decent sometimes and horrible at others yet he somehow wins games.

The way I see it TJ will bump Cate but who gets bumped for Carp is totally open.  You have a current rotation of Wainwright, Looper, Maroth, Thompson, Wells.  Depending on Wells' first start he might be the one bumped but most likely Thompson to the Pen, but who from the Pen gets sent down?  Franklin, Izzy, Springer, Percy, Wellemeyer are the only right handers (Cate/TJ and Flores are safe I would say) so which of them gets the boot?  Can Thompson or Wellemeyer be optioned still?  Do we DFA Welley or do we attempt a trade for one of them?  Springer I think is an obvious trade bait right now, doing good and still on a short contract, Percival wanted to pitch for the Cards (or at least with certain players), Franklin and Izzy are pretty safe and Wellemeyer and Thompson won't get you much from a contending team leaving Springer as the best trading chip.  I would say a Springer + JRod for a AAA player or Springer straight up for a A or High A prospect might be a decent trade.  I would hate to see him go since he has been such a great pitcher this year but I can't find any other options with the current roster.

by StLHugo on Jul 9, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes, but
it's interesting that Wellemeyer was in the competition before pitching 5 shutout innings of 2 hit ball, and now he's out of the competition.  I guess he should've only given up 1 hit!

by chuckb on Jul 9, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

What else needs to be considered
is how much Thompson et al were taking starts in the "1" slot in the rotation.  Because along with replacing Carp as a body in the rotation, and the team winning 11 of the 16 starts, is how many of those "1" starts are being won; the matchups against the Oswalts and Cole Hamels of the world that carp would have been pitching.  Looper I guess would be in that mix and even kip wells might have pitched those games the first week or two when he was pitching well.  

by mdarshan on Jul 9, 2007 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

what I failed to say
was that this was a fantastic post, Larry!  Thanks for giving us so much to chew on!

by mdarshan on Jul 9, 2007 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thompsons earned it.
I dont consider Reyes important as Thompson, never have. Thompsons upside is twice that of Reyes....but his team photo is equally bad.

Unless no one offers Reyes "Zito Money" in the future after the Cards cut him or trade him for another floundering pitching prospect, he may go by the wayside in the not too distant future. (sorry had to throw that over used Zito money thing in there)

"I don't need a damn number to tell me the guy's no good right now!" Old Casey.... Pitching, base running and defense!

by cardschinmusic on Jul 10, 2007 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome back
Those number really put things into perspective.  If the Cardinals are going to get back into this race, they surely face an uphill battle.

Did you have a good vacation?

www.whiteyball.com

by whiteyball on Jul 9, 2007 6:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Still some games left...
Ive always believed number one starters reeling off wins is a big positive for an entire team. Every fifth game it gives the team a lift knowing that he'll be matched up with the oppositions best starters and theres a good chance for a win. It makes pitchers going before and after want to turn in strong performances in comparison.

That and having Carpenter in the dugout every day with his competitor mentality cant be underestimated. There would have been "laboring", but Carp going down when he did was a blow, and knowing Mulders long term situation and the unknown of Isringhausens surgury, young starters, knowing there are no above average arms at 3A, etc.

Good lumber could have overcome a lot of that. Maybe in the second half? Maybe Enc, Rolen and Edmonds will get hot enuff that  teams have to pitch to Albert and Duncan? Maybe not?

There will be no Buehrle deal and he did NOT get "Zito money"!! Under market value...we can finally put that talk to rest. I never thought he would, he didnt have the track record. But there will be a deal that will bring a starter from somewhere?.... for cash and minimum prospects most likely knowing the front office.

And damn the sub-.500 odds against us, I want to see us win a game a week in the standings and make a respectable run. Respectable would be good.

"I don't need a damn number to tell me the guy's no good right now!" Old Casey.... Pitching, base running and defense!

by cardschinmusic on Jul 9, 2007 7:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Rolen batting #2
Matt Leach made a good point on his blog a couple days ago that no one has discussed here yet I don't think.

He argued Tony should put Rolen in the #2 lineup spot. The only thing Rolen's been good at when at the plate is taking pitches, he is also a great base runner, and could really set up Albert well.  

It might also help out his hitting.

by enoscountry on Jul 9, 2007 7:20 AM EDT reply actions  

I'd thought of that as well.
It worked for Edmunds when he didn't have power.  And you're right about the baserunning.

by sdrone on Jul 9, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

As for Rolen's taking pitches
this year Rolen is averaging only 3.77 pitches/plate appearance.  The only 2 years when that was lower was in '05, when he was hurt, and in his rookie year.  His career average is 3.98.  Since 1997, his p/pa are as follows:
97 -- 3.95
98 -- 4.08
99 -- 4.18
00 -- 3.92
01 -- 3.90
02 -- 4.00
03 -- 4.15
04 -- 4.06
05 -- 3.75
06 -- 3.88
07 -- 3.77

There is a distinct pattern here.  His regression offensively has corresponded w/ his willingness/ability to see a lot of pitches.

The argument for putting Duncan in the 2 hole initially was that he would see a lot of fastballs.  If the same argument holds true for Rolen, he probably wouldn't increase his p/pa.  Not saying this won't work, but Leach's argument that Rolen has been good at taking pitches just doesn't hold water since 2004.

by chuckb on Jul 9, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

In respect of Leach
He only said Rolen had a better OBP than others on the team - never argued he took pitches.  I made that inference.

But on taking pitches - those numbers, while declining, are still much better than Eckstein, Enc,  Spiezio, and on par with Pujols and Edmonds. It's only really Duncan who outshines Rolen in p/pa, and I think Tony is right to move him to the 4 or 5 hole.

by enoscountry on Jul 9, 2007 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the answer Larry....
I was talking to someone the other day about how much better, or lack thereof, the Cards will be IF Carp comes back, IF Rolen starts hitting, and IF Mulder comes back in some form.  In order, I think the chances of that are good, slim, and slimer.  

I understand your analysis, and from that the answer is around 2-5 wins.  Not enough to overcome the defecit, as I see it.

The Brewers are completely and totally loaded this year.  Looking at their team, I don't see an area that they need a significant upgrade.  They should be concerned about Weeks, who is still hampered by a wrist injury.  However, they have Graffino ready to fill that void.  

If I were Melvin, I would seriously consider adding Reggie Sanders.  The one thing the team could probably use is a veteran presence, who has been to the dance before, who can escort the kids through it.

by Brock20 on Jul 9, 2007 7:53 AM EDT reply actions  

did someone say
slimer??
"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jul 9, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

i need to go watch those movies
right now.  It's been far too long.

who you gonna call?

+.243 CQA

by azruavatar on Jul 9, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just read this....
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070706&content_id=2071653&vke y=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

At the beginning of the year, I wrote a diary regarding how bad MLB botches opening day.  Marketing, hype, exposure, etc.

Now, comes the musical guests for the All-Star Game.  Chris Issak will sing the National Anthem and Paula Cole will sing God Bless America.  Seriously, folks, could MLB couldn't find Dishwalla, or Seven Mary Three, or any other late 90s one hit wonders?  I mean like Chris Issak, but is he really a draw or someone who at least makes kids stop and change the channel.  

by Brock20 on Jul 9, 2007 8:00 AM EDT reply actions  

At least it's not John Mellancamp
... having trouble finding the field and then singing that damn song from the truck commercials.

Great Dishwalla reference, btw.  Much funnier than The Verve Pipe.

by bgodar on Jul 9, 2007 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Chris Isaak
is a local (SF) boy...well, central valley CA.

by redrey on Jul 9, 2007 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

So is Huey Lewis
but I guess that "I wanna new drug" song hits too close to home, what w/ Bonds and the Mitchell investigation, huh?

by chuckb on Jul 9, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball STILL has
the only All-Star game that's even remotely watchable... but the idea of "getting everyone into the game" has taken much of the starch out of it. Bud Selig's "This One Counts" idiocy has made things worse, not better! Get your league's best players on the field... and leave them there!

Shame the Giants can't invite their Opening Day singers from 1993... you know, these guys!

(Yeah, I'm an old fart...)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 9, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

How about
those Aqua hats on the Marlins!  Yuck!  Why don't they just bring back the shorts from the White Sox of the mid to late 70's?

by chuckb on Jul 9, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

For that matter
I hate God Bless America and it's uneven, bizarre melody and lyrics.  I understand they wanted to add something patriotic after September 11, but there are like two million more catchy, singable, and TV friendly songs they could have chosen.

by Valatan on Jul 9, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Easy on Dishwalla
I'm a pretty big fan of their newer CD Opaline. You've probably never heard anything on it, but its a good album.

by ZiggyG on Jul 9, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could be they picked
Chris Issak because he is from San Francisco; and like her or not, Paula Cole can really sing.....so, I don't know, it seems like a safe choice, no?

by jillsinmo on Jul 9, 2007 8:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Good Point...
Local boy, that's fine?  I have no problem with giving him that gig.  The NFL or NASCAR or heck even the NBA do a much better job with their showcase events, getting the hot talent of the moment to show up and do the gig.  It gives it more cache.

by Brock20 on Jul 9, 2007 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I agree.
My son said "What, no Shakira?"

by jillsinmo on Jul 9, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, there'd
probably be some pushback against having a Colombian singing the national anthem :)

by Valatan on Jul 9, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carrie Underwood...
The kids like her, she's now, she's not unattractive and she's uhmerickan.  

by Brock20 on Jul 9, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought
the NFL just invited Aerosmith to do everything.
Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 9, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

O/T
Did anyone else read the article in the P-D this morning about LaRussa?  Sorry, but I have zero tech skills and could not post a link to it if my life depended on it.  Anyway, the Commish did a piece about the tough year it has been so far and ask some people (players and Walt included) if they thought TLR would return.  As usual, Hummel cuts through the rumors and gives a clearer picture of the situation.  Tony won't decide about returning until the end of the season, as has been his habit through the years.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 9, 2007 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Also O/T
That article also has the funniest quote revealing Jim Leyland's views on attractive men.

"Show me somebody managing a big-league team who at the end of the season looks like Burt Reynolds in his prime."

by enoscountry on Jul 9, 2007 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, if you want to travel over to the dark side...
The Cubs are really glad that Buerhle re-signed with the White Sox.  They seemed to have been worried about him showing up here.......and, as far as the piece on LaRussa, to me it didn't really say anything that wasn't out there already.

by jillsinmo on Jul 9, 2007 9:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Except that
Jim Leyland thinks that Burt Reynolds is hot......

by jillsinmo on Jul 9, 2007 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Glacing at the standings
I was surprised by how bad our overall run differential is, currently -64.  The only teams with worse differential are the White Sox (-66)and Devil Rays (-129: wow).

For our division: Brewers (42), Small Bears (28), Reds (-36), Astros (-39) and Pirates (-60).  Our expected W/L is 36-49, worst in the division.

I understand that per Jocketty we are buyers, despite the circumstances.  I hope we're just tinkering.    

by awpierce on Jul 9, 2007 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

I hope what we're
looking to "buy" are young young young players with a chance to be good major leaguers some day. Another 30-something outfielder? Not so much.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 9, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Trade Deadline
How about this scenario whether we are buyers or sellers?

Trade Izzy: He has been great this year, his value is high. Cleveland, Philly, and NYMets would all be interested---Marte/Milledge. Then Franklin/Percival could split the closing duties.

Trade Rolen: To the Angels for Figgins and a big time prospect (Hank Conger or Nick Adenhart?). Figgins could provide some speed in the 2 hole and take Rolen's spot at 3rd

Trade Reyes: To a team that is willing to part with somebody decent. Maybe a 2B that can hit a little. How about KC for Grudzielanek? Or package him and some other talent to the DBacks for Hudson?

Trade Eckstein: Lots of contenders would love to have him for the stretch run and he is a FA to be. Lets get some return and play Ryan the rest of the way. Maybe the Red Sox (Lugo is hitting 197)

Trade/Release Kennedy

New Lineup

Figgins-3B
Hudson-2B
Pujols-1B
Duncan-LF
Juan-RF
Edmonds-CF
Molina-C
Ryan-SS

Bench
Spiezio
Miles
Bennett
So
Ludwick

Pitching

Carp
Waino
Maroth
Thompson
Looper

Wells
Johnson
Flores
Springer
Percival
Franklin
Wellemeyer/Cate

Come on You Redbirds--Mike Shannon

by BluesDrummer85 on Jul 9, 2007 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Why in the world would the Angels
trade Chone Figgins for Scott Rolen?
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 9, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

No no no
The Angels give us Chone Figgins and a prospect for Scott Rolen.

Kinda reminds me of the scene from "The Break-Up" where Vince Vaughn says something to the extent of "I think she should move out and pay me some sort of a penalty."

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 9, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lots of contenders would
love to have Eck? I'll bet most baseball people basically accept the conventional wisdom about him ... too small, poor arm, poor range, etc., WS heroics notwithstanding.  I'm betting market for him -- even before his current injury troubles -- is exceedingly small.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 9, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry man,
But that team would be pretty bad. The offense might even be worse than the current bunch. Those offensive additions do little to put the fear back into the heart of the St. Louis order. With Duncan's development, clearly adding a 3rd core power threat (ideally who doesn't strikeout as much as Duncan) to replace Rolen/ Edmonds through decline is needed.

by JMedwick on Jul 9, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Angels have
a history of NOT trading their top prospects.  Figgins appears to be having his breakout year.  Don't expect them to trade him.  Shortstop is a problem for us--if they don't think Ryan can do the job, I hope they look outside for a new one.  As much as I love Eckstein, he has spent a lot of time on the DL for two seasons now.  I don't see that improving as he ages.

by jillsinmo on Jul 9, 2007 10:40 AM EDT reply actions  

The sad thing about Eckstein returning
is that Ryan won't continue to get a chance at the big league level.

As a position player/starter, Ryan went 11 for 35 (.314).  His K to BB ratio was 4:3, which isn't bad.  He didn't seem overly 'overwhelmed' by MLB pitching once he got a few ABs under his belt.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 9, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

More on Ryan
Take a look at the last 30 says. Now tell me why Ryan isn't starting more games at SS?

I get that there are egos involved...but come these guys aren't 8 year old girls. If I ask a better player to play on my solftball team he goes in the spot he's the best at. Why is TLR more afraid of hurting Kennedy's feeling more than I am of hurting my friend Larry's feelings? Tony doesn't have to collect $50 every season from Kennedy.

It's one of the things that bug me about Tony. I get that these guys aren't just names on a piece of paper but they are also adults who get paid to win.

by Harknights on Jul 9, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would agree overall but...
...watching the game yesterday, there was a shot
of Tony being somewhat irate at Ryan for a "rookie"
mistake. Ryan lost a ball in the sun due to not
taking his sunglasses with him. Tony had a pair
of sunglasses sent out to Ryan. And what does he
do? He mounts them on the bill of his cap and
doesn't wear them. Al - the commentator - was
all "Just put the glasses on, kid. Just do it."
You just knew that Tony was a bit upset because
Ryan didn't put on the glasses even though he
asked him to.

I think this falls into that general category of
the LaDuncan crew wanting thier youngsters to
follow guidance but they don't. And when they
don't, they land in the doghouse. I'm not saying
I agree with it. Just an observation.

 

by lostraven on Jul 9, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

But is a vet did the same
Say, Juan.

He doesn't even ask about it....

by DriverZn on Jul 9, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trading Izzy
won't be as easy as most think, if we are expecting a top prospect in return.  Yes, he would be helpful in a stretch run, but other teams are also aware of his injury history and his penchant for adding drama to saves.  I would not give up a Marte/Milledge for him if I were another team.

Sadly, I don't see us buying or selling.  Probably nothing out there to make us dramatically better, and I have little doubt that any of the guys that we would shop would draw much of an impact player in return.

I hope I am wrong, but I see this team just flirting with .500 for the rest of the year, and finishing third.  No saving move to be made that I can see.

by pitchout487 on Jul 9, 2007 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

sadly, I agree
Izzy, Juan, Eck, would NOT perform better in another uniform.
And the players we have that teams WOULD want, we don't want to give up (Pooh, Duncan, Wainy, eg)

We can always hope that some other team has a key injury before Aug 30....and/or some GM is naive.

Two possible exceptions might be Looper, and oddly enough Kennedy... if he goes back to the AL he may re-bound.  But we don't figure to get much for either of them.

by CurtFlood on Jul 10, 2007 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anyone worried about Pujols in the
home run contest?

I caught up with the Post Dispatch while visiting my parents over the weekend.  Pujols comes right out and says "I'm not doing it, it messes with your swing."

Imagine my surprise when I get home last night and find out he WILL participate.

by sdrone on Jul 9, 2007 11:36 AM EDT reply actions  

I never got that
if it messes up your swing, then why not just approach it like it's BP?  If you lose it, you lose it, and if you win it, you win it?

by Valatan on Jul 9, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even more
if Pujols' swing was messed up, in 2003 his SLG % only fell from .690+ to .630+.  I'm sure he'd love to have a .630 SLG right now.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 9, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I imagine he's participating
b/c he knows it'll be the first time in weeks he's seen anything over the heart of the plate to swing at.

by chuckb on Jul 9, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

He said
he's participating because his son was disappointed he had initially declined, so when they called him again, he said yes.
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 9, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the other hand
You can look at it like this.
  1. Sometimes by hitting HR's you can "remember" how to hit HR's.
  2. Maybe not hitting any HR's Albert will wakeup and admit his power is gone right now and spend the next three days fixing it.
So I guess what I am saying is Yes I do worry about a players swing being screwed up by the Home Run derby but can you screw up a swing that isn't right when it goes into the derby?

On a side note, how cool is it that when Pujols isn't quite right he just hits like Tony Gwynn instead of Ted Williams.

by Harknights on Jul 9, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think his power is gone
I think that he never sees any pitch over the plate and he continues to swing at pitches 2-6 inches off the outside corner.  It's very difficult to hit those pitches w/ any authority.  In order for him to hit homers, he's got to make pitchers pitch to him and quit hitting their pitches!

by chuckb on Jul 9, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
He has no protection. If you're pitching to him, why on earth would you be worried about putting him on base when you can probably have Juan just stike out or ground into a double play behind him.

In the PD article, Albert even said he just hasn't gotten anything to drive.

by Carps on Jul 9, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's patience, too
And Pujols still got more homers this year than some other bit time home run hitters--Big Papi, Vlad, Ordonez, David Wright and Ramirez come to mind. Sure he's behind Howard and Fielder and others, but I'm going to have to see more than one half of reduced power to be anything resembling worried.

Maybe they did something to the ball this year...

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Jul 9, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Intuitively it seems that
23 fewer runs from a starting pitcher should be worth a lot more than 2 games...
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 9, 2007 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Another way to look at it
Carpenter 2006
221.2 IP, 76 ER, 3.09 ERA

Carpenter 2006 -23runs
221.2 IP, 53 ER, 2.15 ERA

Jeff Suppan 2006
190 IP, 87 ER, 4.12 ERA

Jeff Suppan 2006 -19 runs (prorated for innings)
190 IP, 68 ER, 3.22 ERA

23 runs prorated turns Jeff Suppan into Chris Carpenter.  It's a significant amount but the impact that the pitcher has is still relative to his innings pitched.  A dramatic increase in the quality of those innings has to be spread out over 162 games.  The difference is there but I think you're overestimating the value of an individual run.

by azruavatar on Jul 9, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rolen
So, the burning questiona are:

Is Rolen washed up?  Have injuries reduced him to this level of play for the rest of his career?  Or, can we expect more out of him at some point?

by raisin @ Viva El Birdos on Jul 9, 2007 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Maybe not washed up
But I think that his best seasons are behind him.  I think that the most you could hope for from here on would be .270/15-20/85.  That seems like a total stretch right now, and I mean it to be a BEST case scenario...he just is not ripping the ball into the gaps like he used to.  

by pitchout487 on Jul 9, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rolen
Will never be washed up as long as he plays the GG defense
Come on You Redbirds--Mike Shannon

by BluesDrummer85 on Jul 9, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions  

I gotta disagree with you Blues
The Cards' lineup is predicated upon 3 power-hitting producers in the middle.  Our payroll dictates that we be that way.  When you hire a middle-infield for their defense, and not their bat, a productive 3rd baseman is ESSENTIAL.  I do agree with you that Rolen's defense is as good as it's ever been.  However, his position HAS to hit more.  We pay him too much money.  Maybe a team with a DH and a huge payroll can afford a defense-first type of 3rd baseman, but we can't.
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jul 9, 2007 3:08 PM EDT reply actions  

What do you consider 'productive'?
Do you consider Gold Glove defense with 70+ Runs scored and 80+ Runs batted in 'productive'?

Brooks Robinson (in 1969) at the age of 32 batted .234, drove in 84 runs and scored 73 times.  He did, however, hit 23 HRs, something Rolen has literally no shot of doing.  He put up a .298 OBP and a .395 SLG.  Rolen's current on both are .345 and .380.

In fact:
At age 32 (Rolen projected)

          G   AB  R   H  2B 3B HR RBI SB   BA  OBP  SLG
Scotty   151 520 71  139 27  4  8  78  8  .267 .345 .380
Micheal  148 514 108 144 26  3 35  87 14  .280 .403 .547  
Brooks   156 598 73  140 21  3 23  84  2  .234 .298 .395

Scott isn't hitting the ball over the wall.  I think we can ALL agree that is an alarming trend.  Scott has had good 2nd half HR totals before (01 and 02) but hitting 20 HRs seems out of the realm of possibility for him.

Robinson and Schmidt both got MVP votes in those seasons putting up their numbers.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 9, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love Scotty...
but your point is dead on.  Especially since we insist on relying on Barf Encarnacion, who 'driving' the ball ability is inconsistent.

I remember the days of Kenny Reitz... not a great avg or power hitter, but on those teams he carried his weight.  And... I will get shot for saying this, but he was a better defensive 3b than even Rolen {and I have very high regard for Rolen's defense}

by CurtFlood on Jul 10, 2007 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Get shot? No. Get corrected? YES.
To even try to put Kenny Reitz in the same class as Scott Rolen is ABSURD.

Let's look at their offense, using the adjusted OPS+ as the barometer for every year in which they appeared in at least 81 games.  Both entered their first full year in the big leagues at age 22:

Kenny Reitz
 Year Ag  BA    OBP   SLG *OPS+
 1973 22 .235  .256  .333   62
 1974 23 .271  .299  .363   86
 1975 24 .269  .298  .340   74
 1976 25 .267  .293  .333   76
 1977 26 .261  .291  .412   88
 1978 27 .246  .280  .357   78
 1979 28 .268  .299  .382   84
 1980 29 .270  .300  .379   87
 1981 30 .215  .261  .281   52


Scott Rolen
 Year Ag  BA    OBP   SLG *OPS+
 1997 22 .283  .377  .469  121
 1998 23 .290  .391  .532  139
 1999 24 .268  .368  .525  121
 2000 25 .298  .370  .551  126
 2001 26 .289  .378  .498  127
 2002 27 .266  .357  .503  132
 2003 28 .286  .382  .528  139
 2004 29 .314  .409  .598  160
 2006 31 .296  .369  .518  127

As for this year, methinks you are "misremembering" Reitz's offensive contributions to the club and slightly underestimating Rolen's.  Rolen is currently hitting with an OPS+ of 94.  Although that is WAY below his career average of a 128 OPS+, I would point out that it is still higher than Kenny Reitz EVER achieved in a full season (his career avg OPS+ was a paltry 79).

As for defense, Reitz was a fine defender.  He has one gold glove to show for it.  However, Scott Rolen is CLEARLY a superior defender.  He has 7 gold gloves (and is well on his way to an 8th), and every defensive metric as well as any credible anecdotal observations show that he is a FAR better defender, and is indeed one of the best third basemen of ALL time.

Scott Rolen is a 7 time gold glover, a 5 time All Star, a ROY winner, and placed 4th in league MVP voting in 2004.  Kenny Reitz never once hit better in his prime than Rolen is hitting currently while being mired in the worst slump of his career.  Furthermore, Reitz doesn't even qualify as a worthy defensive replacement for Rolen, since his defense is significantly inferior to Scotty's.

I'm sorry, but your claim that Reitz "carried his weight" and that Scotty isn't is laughable.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 10, 2007 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

What about Pujols' power outage?
While not as bad as Rolen's, his SLG is down 100 pts from his career average.  While it's hard to argue that he's lost them games, compared to how he has hit in years past, he hasn't won as many games for them

by DiscoJer on Jul 9, 2007 5:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed
while he is far and away the least of this team's problems, he's just not the same guy from the last three years.

I noticed on Sat night, after So singled in the bottom of the 9th, bringing up Albert as the games winning run and no one out; in '04-'06, there was just a feeling wherever you where watching the game -- at the park, in your living room, at a pub -- that something special was about to happen. I jazzed myself up for a few seconds before his at bat -- maybe this was the moment that El Hombre turns the corner and locks back in -- but nope, DP. And the Cards were left with a proverbial case of blue balls; kind of epitomized the whole season, really.

Maybe the derby tonight turns him around. By the way, do we get a "derby thread?"

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 9, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly
That is exactly the way it felt.  Well-said.  I get more excited when Duncan and the rookies (lutvig, ryan, even skippy) come up than I do for the MV3 nowadays.  After a while, the frustration makes it no longer fun.  

In fact, the most enjoyable part of the game is watching Springer or Franklin come in and pitch out of whatever jam that Flores or Wellemeyer or whoever put them in.

Sal Baxamusa has an article at www.thehardballtimes.com that lists the biggest over- and under-performers of 2007...  the Cardinals are lucky enough to have 3 hitters in the top 10 in "underperforming isolated power".  Scary stuff, and it really tells it all imho.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 9, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Derby thread
That would be awesome.  I'm drinking a beer for each Pujols homer.  I plan on drinking 3.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 9, 2007 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha
I used the "drink a beer for every Pujols HR" line as a humor ploy.  I'll gladly take him hitting 30 HR in the 2nd half of the season for my bluff getting called.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 9, 2007 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

derby thread
anyone interested in (if LB doesn't do it) me throwing up a derby thread diary?

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 9, 2007 7:26 PM EDT reply actions  

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