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thoughts on today's post

  1. good first post, houstoncardinal. congrats and thanks.
  2. your analysis is interesting, but oversimplified, and therefore flawed, in more than one respect.
to begin with, there's the marginal wins issue. even paying basically nothing but minimum salaries, a la the marlins last year, you're still going to end up winning some minimum number of games - 40-50 or so. starting from league-minimum salaries, you don't have to go from 0-95 wins; you just have to get 50 or so.

in addition, this ignores the distinction between "controlled" (pre-arb/arb) players and players available post-free agency. this distinction is huge, because, at least among players who perform above replacement, only post-FA players will get market salaries. the reason duncan, yadi, molina, and thompson are cheap is that they're not being paid at market rates.

the free agent market is what it is. the cards aren't the only buyers, and thus they can't set rates. saying the cards should only go after free agents who project to deliver a win for every $1.1 million is really looking at the whole thing backwards - because there's no way that's going to work out consistently. the market is just too high.

just as an example, mark buehrle projects (via bp) to just over 3 WARP per year over the next four years. anyone who thinks a stl "hometown discount" for buehrle would involve an annual salary of $4 million, please raise your hand - and with the other hand, punch yourself in the face. ted lilly, who everyone seems to think is working out pretty well for the cubs so far, is projected to have a lower WARP - at $10m/year. johan santana's projected WARP over the next four years is about 6/year; on the open market, despite the fact that people now think the zito contract was stupid, johan still gets zito money.

rather than looking at the payroll of the roster as a whole, it makes a lot more sense to look first at the price of players on the free agent market, relative to wins added, whether it's $2m/win, $3m/win, whatever. then, commit to not signing anyone projected to be worse than that. THEN, figure out how many wins you need, how many FA players you can afford to sign and carry on the team at once - and, therefore, how many below-market players you need to have in order to get the required number of wins from the rest of the roster without breaking the bank.

i think i did a diary on this awhile back; if not, it was just an annoyingly long post somewhere. but the idea is, you can look at two things, basically. one is, are the studs (the highly paid, highly performing guys, of which most teams can only afford a handful - pujols, rolen, edmonds, carp, izzy) performing at a level that matches their salaries? and second, what is the ratio of quality "controlled" players to the rest of the roster?

i think the conclusions i drew were a) the studs were not coming close to carrying their end of the deal (this was earlier this year; they're better now, but edmonds still looks bad); b) the cards spend too much money on lower-level guys (kennedy, eck) who aren't providing that much more than replacement level - those spots should be several million dollars cheaper, because that level of production should be coming from pre-arb, minimum salary farm system guys.

the cards have holes to fill. assuming they're not going to dramatically increase spending, it may mean 2008 isn't realistic as far as making a real run. but to have a shot, the best thing to do would almost certainly not be to limit free agent acquisitions to those meeting the $1.1m/win threshold you've suggested. rather, it would be to fill as many of the gaps as possible from within - e.g., ankiel takes over after edmonds is asked politely to retire; maybe brendan ryan for eckstein or kennedy; dove/cate/keisler as pitchers - and then pay what is required for another stud in FA - buehrle, zambrano, arod, like that.

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I would LOVE
to have Zambrano in my rotation.  He has spirit and fire and he can hit--switch hit! Oh, and he's got quite a good record on a Cub team that hasn't always been too good......he looks like he'd jack your jaw if you got a hit off of him.  That's how Bob Gibson always looked.

by jillsinmo on Jul 6, 2007 11:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i disagree
He's a risky proposition.  Of course Z's talent is beyond dispute, but when things don't go his way he can turn into a real bitch - potentialy a bad teammate. I also question his ability to perform under pressure - on a larger stage.  I have seen him pitch many times in which he lets a small thing get into his head and completely rob him of focus.  Don't get me wrong, he's definitely intriguing.  I just can't trust a player who seems to perform only when properly motivated - and even then with an occasional meltdown.
"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jul 6, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
I think our biggest problem is that we should be able to get the production that we are currently getting at 2B, SS, and RF with minimum salary or arb players, thus freeing up enough payroll for one more star player. That star player would preferably be a position player since signing a top-notch pitcher requires a 5-7 year contract, which is too long considering the attrition rate (both injury and performance-wise) for pitchers. Hopefully as the Edmonds, Juancion, Izzy, and Kennedy contracts come off the books guys like Rasmus, Slick Rick, Mather, Chris Perez, Hoffpauer etc will be ready to step in and provide the same production for a lot cheaper.

by mikedallas23 on Jul 6, 2007 12:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A couple of comments
First, you're correct in that I should have considered WSAB rather than WS from the Hardball Times.  I would have been more consistent w/ using WARP1.  But WARP1, and the salaries I used to compare w/ WARP1, were about marginal wins.

Second, the thread says that the team needs to average around $1.1 M per win -- not that each player needs to produce at that rate.  So I never said that the Cards should only go after players who can deliver a win for $1.1M.  

Izzy's having a great season, but he's at around $1.3 per marginal win.  Pujols is great, and he's at around $1.2.  But if we have players at $2M per marginal win, it makes it very difficult to get to that average, b/c for each player at $2M, we have to have a productive player earning at, or close to, the minimum.  Possible, but difficult.

So I didn't ignore the difference between free agents and pre-arb players, I simply acknowledged that the pre-arb players have to be able to balance out the free agents.  When free agents, such as Juan, are at almost $6M per marginal win, or Wells at almost $10M, you have to have a lot of Duncans to balance that out.

by chuckb on Jul 6, 2007 1:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i don't think we're really arguing
no one would suggest that $10m/marginal win is a good use of resources. to put it another way, no one would argue that, to date, wells has been a good use of resources.

what you did say was that any player costing more than $1.5m/win was basically worthless. i do think that's off base, and the cards' analyst agreed. he said under $2m is fine, and under $1.5 is a bargain. my point was that if you're unwilling to sign players who you project will cost more than $1.5m/win, you're not going to sign any good free agents, because the market rate is higher than that.

we're really in complete agreement that the basic problem, other than the marquee guys not partying like it's 2004, is really that there are too few pre-arb guys to balance everything out, and so the team ends up with guys like wells/kennedy, which kills them.

but the way i read your post, it sounds like your proposed solution is, target cheaper guys in FA (cheapness being measured in $/marginal win). and my point is, that's really not feasible, because the market - which, as front offices get smarter, is becoming more and more efficient - sets that price; the cards can't dictate it. all the cards can do at that point is go bargain shopping, and that's how they ended up with wells/kennedy in the first place.

my point is, even $2m/marginal win isn't going to be enough in today's market. cheap marginal wins are much, much more likely to be found in prearb guys than anything that can be found on the market. so the solution isn't to find cheaper free agents - it's to sign fewer free agents, but better ones, paying the premium when necessary. and plug holes with pre-arb guys rather than the cheap free agents that are sometimes ryan franklin, but more often wells/kennedy.

if you said all that, then ok - we're square :)

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 6, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great discussion
nycbirdo and houstoncardinal - you're really putting the salary/production issue in perspective.  Thanks.

by bgodar on Jul 7, 2007 8:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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