friday morning miscellany

by lboros on Jul 27, 2007 9:21 AM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News

ken rosenthal's latest column shoots down my trade musing from yesterday morning, viz. isringhausen to the dodgers. for one thing, rosenthal says, the chances of an isringhausen trade are remote: "Isringhausen, who turns 35 on Sept. 7, might require a team to exercise his $8 million option to waive his no-trade protection. Many clubs would balk, given Isringhausen's history of injuries." for another thing, the dodgers are no longer looking for relievers --- after a rash of injuries in their rotation (brad penny is the latest to go out, with a groin injury), they need starters. looper? well, maybe they'd take him, but i wouldn't expect them (or any team) to give up much. after last night's win, loop has an era of 4.85 and an era+ of 83; mike maroth had an era of 5.06 (in the dh league) and an era+ of 87 when the cardinals traded for him --- and the cards gave up nothing more than a PTBNL. both players are under club control for one more year, so they're pretty comparable, right? not so fast:

	era	whip	avg	ops	k/bb	fip
maroth (thru jun 18)	5.06	1.660	.319	.950	0.8	6.35
looper	4.85	1.401	.277	.745	1.5	4.47

looper is definitely a more attractive trade chip than maroth. in fact, having looked at his numbers, i now wonder if the cardinals can even afford to trade him. he has ably filled the suppan role, and done it for cheap --- a league-averageish starter making below-market money is a valuable player, no? particularly on a team that's desperate for stability in its rotation. unless jocketty can convince some team to give up a high-ceiling prospect for him at the deadline (unlikely), i think they should hold on to him.

oh, but wait. it says here that tony's thinking of moving looper back to the bullpen next season (???). . . . .

. . . . which also means, apparently, that tony's still thinking of managing the team next year.

changing subjects: last week i lodged a request with the palm beach club to interview standout minor-league pitcher pj walters --- whereupon he promptly got called up to double A, his second promotion this year. this morning's post-dispatch has a profile about walters by derrick goold; not a hard thrower, despite the gaudy strikeout numbers, but he throws all his pitches for strikes and isn't afraid to challenge hitters. double A will be a big test; he got knocked around a bit in his debut for springfield the other night, but he'll have another half-dozen starts before the schedule runs out --- and springfield's already in the playoffs, which might add another start or three to walters' workload.

as long as we're talking minor leagues, erik summed up the early returns on the 2007 draft class yesterday. good reading. one guy he left off the list is antonio dejesus, the slap-hitting centerfielder out of kentucky (16th round). this guy debuted at batavia and posted a .407 on-base percentage despite batting .186 --- that's what 14 walks in 73 plate appearances will do for ya. they bumped him up to quad cities two weeks ago and inserted him into the leadoff slot; he's batting .300 and still drawing walks like crazy (9 in 49 p.a.). now here's the bad news: this guy has only 1 extra-base hit (a double) in 99 professional at-bats. i reckon the guy must be fast, but he only has 5 steals; if it were more like 15 steals, i might actually be excited about him. he's probably not a big-leaguer, but i find him pretty fascinating as a novelty player --- he's got as many walks as base hits this year. his line is a freakish .232 / .421 / .242. maybe it's just a matter of adjusting to wooden bats; maybe he simply goes up there looking to foul pitches off until they walk him. maybe he's eddie gaedel. . . . . he had a typical night last night --- 1 basehit (a single), 4 runs scored.

erik also had a link to this article about arnoldi cruz. more information about that player forthcoming shortly --- i've got a new batch of questions pending with jeff luhnow. also, i'll be attending a SABR presentation today by sig mejdal, whom luhnow hired as the cardinals' "senior quantitative analyst" --- ie, head stat guy. will report out this p.m. if there's anything interesting . . . . .

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(???) is right

"It's something I've thought about over the last couple weeks," La Russa noted. "What he's gone through this year as a starter would be great preparation as a reliever."

Wasn't his entire major league career leading up to this year, in which he was exclusively a reliever, also great "preparation" to be a reliever for the 2007 Cards?

I never really understood why they were doing this with Looper, so I guess I shouldn't complain that they may stop it and go out and get some actual starters (even if their rationale for moving Loop to 'pen makes as little sense as their rationale for taking him out)

by tdawg on Jul 27, 2007 9:21 AM EDT reply actions

Surly McPujols...

Anyone else notice that after Dunc's Grand Slam, Pujols went straight back to the dugout and didn't wait at home to high five Duncan? Someone is peeing in Alberts Cheerios.

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 27, 2007 9:32 AM EDT reply actions

Sure looks like it to me.....

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=e047f0d3d7c343de86a172256e4e33ea.cubs_cardinals_baseball_motg 110&prov=ap

Just cause he was in the dugout doesn't mean he didn't congratulate him.

BTW..What tagging method do I use to post pictures and such in a comment? Or is that completely disabled?

by StLHugo on Jul 27, 2007 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions

you have to use html

type [img src="image path here"] only replace [ with < and ] with >

by jeff abs on Jul 27, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Still..

it's common baseball etiquette to wait at homeplate for the homerun hitter, if you were on base.

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 27, 2007 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions

It is?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions

I believe so

I've seen baseball players do it since I started watching the game, many many years ago.

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 27, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions

I mean, yeah,

it happens, but for every single homerun?

I think you may be looking too deeply into things.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions

i think pujols is pissed

hes finally got some competition on this team. duncan motivates albert to get hits. anyone else realize how many times they both hit hrs in the same game?

"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 27, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Going with this theory

Albert would have been apoplectic during every season from 2001 when he broke in through the middle of 2006.

You were joking, right?

by liam on Jul 27, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions

anyone else look up "apopectic"?

and yes of course i was joking. but it does seem that every time duncan comes close to albert in hrs albert gets hot. just a theory

"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 27, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions

My apologies

There's been some questioning of el Hombre's character lately in a season when he's gone out of his way to be a better teammate and more of a pleasant cat all around. Just wanted to make sure.

As for apoplectic, it's a great word, eh? Conjures up an image of the forehead vein ready to burst. For me, at least.

by liam on Jul 27, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it was in Great Expectations

or something by Dickens, where a character was given to malapropisms, and described somebody as having died of "a purple leptic seizure". I hadn't thought of that in years! Thanks for giving me something to smile at. It's been a long season.

"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Jul 27, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

I commented on this in the game thread

concerning team "chemistry."

Don't blame just Pujols. I was watching the Cubs broadcast and Looper was the only one who waited for him.

by sdrone on Jul 27, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions

And before that

Eck and Pujols bumped into each other at the plate after PUjols got hit.

Neither said a word or even looked at each other.

by sdrone on Jul 27, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions

Sorry

But that was actually Miles, and I wouldn't call it a bump. Miles was just tagging home, and trying to be ginger around Pujols. I know when I get hurt by doing somebody doing something wreckless, I get angry. And you don't want to talk to or bother people who are pissed off in general.

by cloistermaximus on Jul 27, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions

Crap, no coffee

I ment to say "when I get hurt BY somebody doing something wreckless".. as in, getting a 90 mph hardball in the ribs by an opposing pitcher.

by cloistermaximus on Jul 27, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions

So in the course of your day

you use the phrase "I gingerly moved around him but made some contact" instead of "I bumped into him?"

Heh.

by sdrone on Jul 27, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

that's the way

people gain nicknames they hate. as in,

"What's up, ginger?"

Would actually be a pretty good nickname for miles...

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 27, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Taken

By Matt Murton.

by liam on Jul 27, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Albert

might be grumpy, but I really don't think it has as much to do with team chemistry.

I think it had more to do with him struggling the previous two games and the man is just pretty beat up right now. It looks like he is struggling to even walk right now.

The man needs a day off soon, but it can't be this Brewers series if we want to maybe get back in the race somehow.

by KYCards on Jul 27, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Well

there's a way Albert can fix that . . .

become superhuman again!

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions

My thought

I thought they might move Looper back next year, just because he seems to have hit the innings wall. Perhaps he would be conditioned to go longer into the season next year, but that's a tough thing to ask a guy at his age. If they could fill the rotation, he'd be the one I'd shift back, I think.

Of course, I'm also leaning toward seeing if Wells will sign an extension due to his recent improvements. So I'm probably certifiable.

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Jul 27, 2007 9:35 AM EDT reply actions

The Kipper

I must be certifiable as well because I would give the Kipper another shot. I wouldn't give him a lot of guaranteed money, but a lot of incentives that could payoff nicely for him. I don't think too many teams will be lining up to sign him at this point.

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Jul 27, 2007 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions

If we had a different manager

who gave the guy a shorter leash, I'd be with you. If tony marches kip out there through july sporting a 6+ era again next year, I think I'm gonna lose it.

by jeff abs on Jul 27, 2007 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Wells

He's the dream reclamation project. Dunc probably goes to sleep most nights thinking about how much movement Kip gets on his pitches, waiting for him to be DFA'd so we can pick him up off the....er...wait a minute...

by bobeans on Jul 27, 2007 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions

Given that he was a first round draft pick

it would be amazing to see him finally fulfill some of those original high expectations with us, especially since I can't imagine anyone else wanting him, and we could probably get him cheap.

With Weaver having lost his way after leaving St. Louis and Suppan looking shaky after the first six weeks with the Brewers, even if Wells has a fabulous second half, people could wonder whether he would be able to keep that success up after leaving St. Louis. (I guess I should throw Marquis in there as well as bad pitching buys from St. Louis).

by nycardfan on Jul 27, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions

good slogans

keeping wells in the rotation allows not just "loop (or whoever) and wain and pray for rain" but also "win one for the kipper!"

this season, gotta find entertainment where you can.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 27, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions

exactly.

you can't win the world series every year. you can't make the playoffs every year unless you're the yankees. crack open a cold one, root for the brewskis (except this weekend), and find the jokes where you can.

by lordsummer on Jul 27, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Larry...

did you make it to the book pannel at the library yesterday? Just wondering, because I am about half way through Lowenfish's autobiography of Branch Rickey and was wondering if he shared anything about the process of writing the book. My understanding is that it took quite a few years.

by Brock20 on Jul 27, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions

unfortunately i couldn't make it

i had to choose between the author's panel and a presentation by dave smith of retrosheet about outcomes on the first pitch --- a subject near and dear to my heart, one i've done my own research on. the smith presentation was a tour de force; i was going to blog about it this morning, but smith hadn't posted his article to retrosheet (as promised) as of this morning, and i wouldn't be able to do it justice. when his article does go up, i will have a few remarks about it.

i'll try to catch up with loewenstein if he sticks around for the rest of the weekend.

by lboros on Jul 27, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions

i mean loewenfish . . . .

by lboros on Jul 27, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions

Thanks.....

Tell him from a history major, lawyer, baseball fanatic, that it is one hell of a read and an amazing amount of research. I learn something new in each chapter.

by Brock20 on Jul 27, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions

like the Autobiography

of Alice B. Toklas?

by bobeans on Jul 27, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't blame Tony

for that totally. It wasn't like he had other options for starters. He tried everybody. I half expected to see Miles on the mound. Who eles could he haved used? Reyes? I for one am waiting for the Reyes to completely blow up this weekend. Franklin? Why mess with one of the few bright spots on the team. With our luck he would have been lost for the season after his first start with some freak injury like walking to the mound from the dugout. If Carp wasn't hurt the whole time I think Tony would have had more options I would have expected Kipper to be in the pen instead of getting shelled.

Of course I still like Tony and hope he returns next year. Please no throwing tomatoes at me! :)

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Jul 27, 2007 10:22 AM EDT reply actions

opps

Meant to be posted above. I guess I need more coffee this morning.

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Jul 27, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions

Table?

I have a nerdy excel chart w/ some #'s that no one will care about, but when I try to post it, it comes out very funky/unreadable. I'm sure that last fall someone helped me w/ this, but can I get a reminder on how to paste it in a proper format here?

by toris34 on Jul 27, 2007 10:35 AM EDT reply actions

the only way to do it

that i have found is to use code and /code tags. A great weakness of the sb setup imho.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 27, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Or do it as a graphic

make the chart in Excel and copy/paste into something else to make it a graphic.

Or set up the spreadsheet on Google Docs spreadsheet, make the chart and save the image as a PNG. Host it somewhere and use "img src" code.

by sdrone on Jul 27, 2007 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Splits

I was one of several that earlier this week stated that lil Dunc should play every day. I'm not going back on that, but I thought I'd post some #'s vs. LH pitching. Lud's reverse splits are crazy so I included them. Sorry about the poor formating. I do #'s, not computers..

    AB    R    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    TB    BB    SO    OBP    SLG    OPS    AVG
Dunc    65    7    16    5    0    1    12    24    7    24    0.324    0.369    0.693    0.246
So    100    12    32    4    0    1    8    39    8    10    0.387    0.390    0.777    0.320
Lud
vs LH    69    6    13    6    0    1    6    22    4    17    0.233    0.319    0.552    0.188
vs RH    75    10    23    6    0    6    17    47    4    18    0.350    0.627    0.977    0.307

by toris34 on Jul 27, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions

I'd still stick with Dunc

He's 26, and just now getting an opportunity to see major-league lefties on a regular basis. He's got a nearly .700 ops vs. LHP in 2007, which isn't awful. Last year he was at a. 539 ops vs. LHP.

The more he sees them, the better he'll get, and we need his power bat in the lineup everyday.

Gooch, at 37, is proof that continued exposure to LHP pays off: his OPS vs. LHP, from 2004-2007: .683, .717, .726, .777.

At this point, with this team, I'd much rather give the cheap, under-team-control-for-4-more-years, power-hitting youngster the chance to continue his remarkable development, than spend valuable at-bats on the single-hitting fourth outfielder.

by salvomania on Jul 27, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Here...Here

The rest of this year is about development. I'll be glad when Tony can quit "trying to trot out the best nine" Which, BTW does not include So and Miles, Tony.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions

between duncan and ludwick

it is insane to pick ludwick. Even the most optomistic ludwick supporters like me would never argue that. Of course I was also a huge duncan supporter in early 2006.

However, if the choice is between Taguchi or Encarnacion and ludwick, I think the choice should be ludwick. Ludwick's bizarre splits are a sample size thing and he has so much power potential, and he's the best defensive outfielder on the big league team right now imho.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 27, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

4

wins are needed this weekend. (A plea to the most moribund Cardinals team since the early 90s.)

Now, I know, I'm jumping the gun, since the game thread is not up, and I know that salvaging 1 game of the 3 game set with the Cubs does not give me any reason to be hopeful for 4 wins against Milwaukee, but I'm asking for it any way.

3 wins and 1 loss brings us to within 6 games of Milwaukee (and possibly catapults the Cubs into first, unless the Reds continue their fine work from the first half of this week). While 6 games back is close enough mathematically to still be in the hunt, there's so little room for error this year that when there's an opportunity to cut the distance you are from your current opponent in half, you gotta jump on it.

Be greedy, Redbirds -- go get 4 this weekend. You're running out of time to convince me there will be anything to care about in September.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jul 27, 2007 11:41 AM EDT reply actions

4 Wins

anything less would be failure.

I say this, and then realize that the Cubs/Brewers play the Mets/Phillies for 6 games next week while we play the Nats/Pirates.

But yes, the Cardinals need to win 4 this weekend, get to 4 games out of 1st place with those respective 6 games ahead of each team.

By August 6, we could find ourselves 2 or 3 games out of 1st place. That all depends, of course, on the Cardinals playing like they did on Sunday, Monday and Wednesday. Even though they lost Monday, they played well enough to win.

I don't want to get my hopes up, after Tuesday dashed them. Yet it all lays there before them.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions

You mean

Tues day and Thursday not Monday and Wednesday.

by StLHugo on Jul 27, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree w/ you completely.

Just wanted to throw some #'s out there. I'd much rather him struggle a little vs. lefties right now than during (hopeful) future playoff races.

by toris34 on Jul 27, 2007 11:43 AM EDT reply actions

tribe speculation...

a lot of buzz on indians websites today...supposedly a trade has occurred, to be announced in 4pm ET press conference...many are speculating izzy?

http://www.letsgotribe.com/story/2007/7/27/113749/027

by lindqja on Jul 27, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions

Dotel

No way the Cards trade Izzy before this weekened when they will need relief pitching out the waazoooooooo.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions

After seeing

Tony's post game interview last night, he seemed about as happy as I have seen him in weeks. I think Tony thinks we still have a real good shot so I doubt we will be trading anybody now.

by KYCards on Jul 27, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Boring!

Via Cleveland.com

The Indians are on the verge of acquiring Rangers outfielder Kenny Lofton, a source said Friday afternoon.

An official announcement could be made later today.

It's uncertain whom the Indians are giving up in the trade.

Indians General Manager Mark Shapiro and Assistant General Manager Chris Antonetti could not be reached.

Lofton is the Indians' all-time leading base stealer and a fan favorite. Lofton, 40, is hitting .303 with seven homers and 23 RBI for the Rangers. He has 21 steals, and he's making $6 million this year.

He most recently played for the Tribe from 1998 through 2001.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Crap

I meant to edit that down. Don't sue me for copyright, cleveland.com, please!

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Looks like

It's going to be Max Ramirez. Good hitting catcher in high a ball.

by Hammondsbird on Jul 27, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions

haha i agree boring....

and, since its a slow friday before a big weekend...thought i would add this post on a cleveland board to the fire...

Cleveland.com person quoted friends of theirs close to the organization as saying:

Quote:
"unnamed sources close to the organization" say that Lofton may be needed because an Indians outfielder is headed to St Louis for Isringhausen

http://www.swerbsblurbs.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2952&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1 00

i'm sure nothing...but who knows?

by lindqja on Jul 27, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Fingers crossed for Sizemore!

n/t

by redrey on Jul 27, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions

If we are getting good major league talent

for Izzy in a trade, then I'm not sure what that means exactly. We either keep Izzy because we still got a chance, or we dump him and get at least a prospect or two out of it. If we get talent like that, that almost makes me think we are going to dump Juan.

by saladdays on Jul 27, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

and now bernie when asked...

We've been hearing Izzy / Indians rumors for a couple of hours, but nothing solid, nothing I'll bank on right now.

--B

by lindqja on Jul 27, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions

If Izzy is traded to Cleveland for an OF

not named Sizemore, the struggling Cliff Lee better be coming with him.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions

Now, I'd like to take a trip around the majors,

kiddies because there are some pretty cool things happening with some players you might not have noticed:

Hunter Pence-more exciting than Jose Reyes!

Chipper Jones-batting title at 35?

Buddy Carlyle-after 11 years in the minors finds himself in the Atlanta rotation

Tim Lincecum aka Tinkertoy man-and to think that the scouts thought you were too small-did they forget Pedro? Well done, young man.

Vlady G.-that swing! How do you manage to hit everything?

Ken Griffey, Jr.-milestone homer on the horizen-and you got your injury out of the way BEFORE the year started.

Manny being Manny-milestone homer on the horizen for you too.

Shelley Duncan, Chris Duncan-be proud, Duncan family. You have accomplished a lot.

Octavio Dotel-nice recovery from TJ surgery!

Johan Santana-you, sir, are the one pitcher I drop everything to watch. Gold standard, indeed.

Brad Penny, Aaron Harang, Carlos Zambrano-you have all been on the verge of superstar acedom for years-congratulations. You are all three legitimate Cy Young contenders this year.

All of these developments have made me enjoy being a baseball fan this year.....please chime in if I missed something.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 1:34 PM EDT reply actions

oh, how bout

Mr. Sizemore. Yeah the underrated prospect sent to Cleveland as a spare part, that has made a name for himself as one of the best Outfielders in baseball. i think he's pretty exciting.

by Hammondsbird on Jul 27, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed....

I was talking up Sizemore to a friend as the best player that the casual fan has never heard of. SI did a cover story along the same lines a few months back, its a good read.

That's a good list. I would add a possible double dip for the Brew Crew as Bonnie Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun make their cases for MVP and ROY respectively.

by Brock20 on Jul 27, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes....he was drafted by the

expos (remember them?) and the gm was raked over the coals for wasting a high draft pick. Same gm moves over to Cleveland and insists they trade for Sizemore...it was Lee Stevens, Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips and Sizemore for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew. He's a franchise player now.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions

And my bad--it's horizon not horizen......got lazy

with spell check.......apologies, folks.

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions

No way..

I think that there is no way they would give up Grady for Izzy. I would probably give Izzy and A-Rey for Sizemore, and I'm one of the bigger Reyes fans around.

by toris34 on Jul 27, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions

Grady going nowhere

The city of Cleveland would mutiny.......they love him.....especially the women.

by Hinkster on Jul 27, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Well, Hinkster, he IS kinda cute........

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions

How you people think the Indians would trade

Sizemore is beyond me....Everyone's joking, right?

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 27, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions

It's just wishful thinking......it's the kind of

thing only Pirates management would do........

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions

We can nip this one in the bud...

Teams don't trade their best player in the midst of a playoff run. Sorry, it's not Grady.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Izzy is going nowhere according to Bernie...

At least not with the indians... Joe Strauss talked to Izzy's agent 20 minutes ago and the agent said Izzy isn't going anywhere...

-B

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 27, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions

That makes me happy

I don't really want Izzy going anywhere. If his $8 M is the difference between the Cardinals signing a top free agent next year or not, tell DeWitt to sell more fake imperials at the ballpark.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions

His 8 Million...

makes a HUGE difference in what we do in the offseason.

BTW, why does anyone want to keep Izzy. That's like putting fine icing on a cake made of shit...you just don't need it. Anyone thinking that next year, without major changes, is going to be any better is just plain fooling themselves.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions

How does it make a HUGE difference?

Who on the FA market do you see them spending money on? Carlos Zambrano is the only quality starting pitcher out there and all of the impact position players will want longterm deals, meaning that $8M in 2008 for Izzy can be worked around by backloading the other contracts.

DeWitt has the money if he truly wants to spend it. We aren't working against a cap, just an imaginary one that he has put into place.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Great Idea

let's backload some more contracts! Yeesh.

We have tons of holes, an that 8M can be used to fill any number of them. Closers are vastly overvalued anyway, and especially on a team that will likely have a hard time sniffing .500.

Like I said, move all the dead weight you can and start over.

"DeWitt has the money if he truly wants to spend it. We aren't working against a cap, just an imaginary one that he has put into place."

Be that as it may...this team still has a set budget and they aren't going to up it by the 30-50M that it is going to take to facilitate a quick turn around.

SELL!!!

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions

There will be major changes this offseason

But I don't see the wisdom in trading Isringhausen just to trade him. If an offer came along that would make us a better team in '08 without Isringhausen, then no of course, take it.

Izzy's a valuable player, though, so it's hard to guess what we'd have to get back to replace that value.

If he doesn't get traded, I definitely won't think Jock screwed the pooch for not managing to get rid of him. I hope others don't jump all over him as well. It'd take a very good offer from a team one shut-down reliever away from serious contention to get a deal done. Is there such a team with available prospects out there?

by liam on Jul 27, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions

The only argument for trading Izzy

is that he's old and going to break down permanently and most people's money would surely be on that happening in the not-too-distant future. But you're right, it would take exactly that kind of team to bite on a trade for it to be worth our while. I mean, geez, what are we paying Mulder and Carpy not to pitch this year...

by lordsummer on Jul 27, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions

Not at all...

The argument for trading Izzy is that the Cardinals will be bad next year and thus not really in need of a top notch closer.

Basically consider 2008 a lost cause (which it almost certainly is with Carp out and Rolen and Edmonds on the decline) and play for 2009 by freeing up all the cash you can, and getting as many prospects as you can.

by DiscoJer on Jul 27, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions

If 2008 is a lost cause

then why scrap payroll? Izzy and Edmonds come off the book after '08. That is, what, $16 M gone?

If Juan is on the team in '08, another $6.25 gone. Looper's $5.5 M is gone.

If they don't pick up Mark Mulder's option, another $6.5 gone.

Might as well play 2008 with the pieces we have, because after that season $34.25 in payroll comes off the books.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions

IF

you scrap payroll and get rid of some of the dead weight then maybe '08 does not have to be a lost cause.

Anyway, the package we would get back is my motivation for moving Izzy...not so much moving the payroll although that is nice also.

I'd rather lose while getting some young talent infused into this team, than running out the same old tired roster hoping for different results.

They won't even resemble a good team in '08 unless some serious money is spent. Dewitt isn't going to raise payroll, so the only way to spend money is to trim the payroll that we already have.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not sure how you got that from my post???

Trading Izzy just to trade him??? No, he is the most valuable chip we have therefore he brings back the most in return. Add that to the salary relief and you have what is basically a no-brainer.

This management team has serious delusions of grandeur though...so it's likely they stand pat and '08 is a carbon copy of this year.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions

A no-brainer

We'd need to find a trading partner that'd be willing to give up value for value and that's hard to find. If you'll be pissed off if Izzy isn't dealt then you want to trade him just to trade him—to get him off the books. If no team that Izzy would be willing to join is willing to part with enough talent to make it worthwhile, then it's a no-brainer to keep him.

The guy's a good pitcher, no reason to run him out of town just because a few fans think the team's going to stink next year.

The situations aren't quite comparable, but a lot of people thought we would stink in 2004 after a miserable 2003. We don't know what the 2008 Cardinals will look like and I don't see any rush to make them as crappy as possible by dealing our best reliever for any package that wouldn't improve the team.

(Although I'll always blame that year on Yan and Borbon, Jr.)

by liam on Jul 27, 2007 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

moving izzy by himself

makes little sense. But if we could move Izzy AND JuanEnc, that frees up almost $15M. Combine that with not resigning Eckstein and taguchi and miles, replacing them with youth, and throw in whatever we get from the carpenter insurance settlement, and we would have the ability to be serious players in the FA market this winter.

Not that there's much available, but still, if WJ plays his cards right he can free up enough to allow us to go after an A-rod or Zambrano, or trade for someone like young or tejada.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 27, 2007 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Rotoworld Fun

In a commentary on Chase Utley being out for a month:

Barring a trade, the Phillies will go with Abraham Nunez as their primary second baseman. With a .256/.316/.311 line this season, Nunez was only trailing Utley by 370 points of OPS.

Those guys are really cranking up the snark in anticipation of the trade deadline!

by liam on Jul 27, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions

They are funny/mean sometimes......

these are just guys staring at their computer all day, aren't they? I mean, it seems like they just make up stuff.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Izzy the tealeaf

Does anyone think that what happens to Izzy over the next couple of days will be a sign of what Jocketty/LaRussa's intentions are for 2008? By that I mean, if Izzy stays, then Walt and Tony stay. If he goes, then Walt and/or Tony are probably gone too. I can't imagine that Tony would stick around without having a proven closer.

by lefty fan on Jul 27, 2007 2:28 PM EDT reply actions

I think Tony tipped his hand last night

talking about his plans for Braden Looper. Looper wants to be a starter from now on in his career, yet TLR is discussing sending him back to the bullpen next year because of some imaginary glut of starters we are going to have.

He also said we'd probably acquire 2 starters in the off-season.

I think Tony is showing that he plans to stick around. Or take Braden Looper with him to Cincy.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Possibly......but who knows..

this whole year has a sort of alice in wonderland feel to it. If they want to use their farm system more, they can't start shedding too many pieces of it. Izzy's a 5/10 guy so he doesn't have to go anywhere. My concern with him staying is his injury history. So far, so good. Now what shape is his body going to be in next year?
And Tony would want a proven closer, that I agree with.

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with Tony...

...send him back to the bullpen - I think the obviousness of this choice will become apparent in the next two months. More of his starts will look like the last one - not last night.

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 27, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions

There is no salary cap

for Izzy, if he breaks down next year, that only hurts the clubs in two ways 1) If DeWitt considers that money as anything other than 'dead weight' and doesn't allow Walt to still spend in the off-season 2) Tony hasn't learned his lesson and still trots him out there injured like 2006.

If Izzy is healthy for next year, GREAT.

If he breaks down, Kinney/Johnson/Franklin will get the slot.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Hello Cleveland!

I've been sort of hoping the Cardinals would hold on to Izzy for the last couple of weeks, and let him sort of be the bridge to some of the team's young bullpen arms next season. However, someone up above mentionaed Cleff Lee's name. I know it was just an off the cuff statement, but if the Cardinals could have gotten a legit outfield prospect- or the oft mentioned Asdrubal Cabrera- and Cliff Lee, I would make that trade in a heartbeat. I know Lee has been god awful this season, but I still think the guy has a long, very productive career ahead of him in the long term.

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 27, 2007 2:42 PM EDT reply actions

Sign me up...

Lee, Cabrera, and Jeffrey Stevens...I'm in.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Knowing our luck this year,

We'd probably end up with Lee Stevens.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 27, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Looper's innings

Everyone talks about the 'innings' problem with Looper....But obviously many relievers who pitch 70-90 innings/year are capable of 'stretching' out as starters and pitching 150 plus innings.

So the quality and everyday-ness of bullpen innings must be more taxing to the arm or something. Intermittent rest must allow starters to pitch a bunch of innings at once.

So - comparing Looper's total quantity of innings seems to me a rather worthless exercise. Or am I missing something here?

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 27, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions

"Or am I missing something here?"

Some players have a max effort delivery that can't be sustained for more than 1-2 innings at a time. There's an idea that this helps preserve the arm. I don't think the "quality and everyday-ness" translates into more taxing. This is a huge research topic that you would find mounds of documents if you search pitch counts over at The Hardball Times or Baseball Prospectus.

There are a myriad of contributing factors as to what kind of impact an inning has on a pitchers arm. Innings are not created equal in terms of arm fatigue and stress. No one is going to be able to answer this quesiton in a comment, if at all. It's a topic you could write/read on for a very long time.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Also

You can also take into account warmup times and strategies. If you warm up with x pitches for every bullpen start doesn't that put even more wear on your arm? But as a starter don't you have a more detailed warmup routine? There are lots of things that come up and it really becomes very complex and I don't really think it is fair to compare relief to starting pitches or innings wise.

by StLHugo on Jul 27, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions

So my point is right

....the simplistic mantra we keep hearing - "Well, Braden just exceeded his career max of IP at 70 (or whatever) so he will inevitably become fatigued" - is not the right way to think about it.

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 27, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Not when you are talking about extremes

I would say that the initial reaction of Looper exceeding his career max isn't something to be hugely worried about. You'd have to look deeper at his usage on a start by start basis. Is he throwing alot of pitches in a game? In an inning? Has his velocity decreased as the game went on? Like I said, lots to look at.

He's at 111 innings right now. I'm not sure there's a valid argument to be made that his arm hasn't undergone more stress by throwing around twice what he'd throw at this point last year. Now we're getting into extremes. He may not "inevitably become fatigued" but it's certainly more probable.

It's an oversimplification to say that once he's exceeded his max innings he's headed for trouble. It does, however, serve as a nice benchmark for comparison moving forward.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Tex trade

On MLB trade rumors, apparently Terry Evans is one of the names offered for Teixiera from the Angels. If the Rangers were smart, they'd deal with the Braves.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2007 3:28 PM EDT reply actions

Am I the only person that things

Wonderbrad should pitch an inning of relief in the day game Saturday and then start the nightcap? His sinker gets better the more tired his arm is.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 3:34 PM EDT reply actions

I disagree

Maybe an inning tonight and start the first game. I want them to not be cutesy and start Reyes in the second game and make the roster move between the games. If Thompson starts the last game then Reyes could be called up, Jimenez or Skip sent down then Reyes sent down and Dove/etc. recalled which makes no sense.

by StLHugo on Jul 27, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Leave Thompson alone.....

they should also just leave Reyes in Memphis unless they are going to leave him here or deal him-which I kind of think is what the real plan is. Let me go out on a limb--it starts raining just as he arrives at the airport. He never makes it to Busch III and heads back to Memphis to start their game Sunday night....

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions

AAAA

Maybe we could split the difference by having Reyes start for Poplar Bluff MO (half way between Memphis and St. Louis)

by Hinkster on Jul 27, 2007 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Then he can be on call for

an emergency start in both places! Brilliant!

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Side note on geography

With AAA Louisville only 90 miles from Cincy, of Jose Guillen once played a full afternoon game with Louisville then drove to Cincy for an evening game. The classic day/night minor/major doubleheader.

by Hinkster on Jul 27, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Maybe they should have Reyes start

the first game. They could get him back to Memphis for the night game.........it would be a nice little footnote to add to his difficult season. He could pinch hit or pinch run....

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Or even DH

As long as Keisler is in St. Louis, Reyes is one of the 10 best hitters here.

by whopperman on Jul 28, 2007 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree, quit yanking around

Thompson from bullpen to the rotation and then measuring him against guys who don't have to do that. It's not fair to Thompson. And it's also not fair to bring Reyes up unless they give him more opportunities if he plays well. It's not like Maroth is making us feel secure. It rritates me that they say they believe in competiition and yet they often don't let that play out or have it play it on an uneven playing field.

by nycardfan on Jul 27, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Well, I'll be.......

I think it's the first time you and I have agreed on anything. It's kind of hard to get the consistency thing going if your Thompson and in and out of the rotation and the bullpen, and for Reyes back and forth to Memphis. They have both missed regular rotation turns the last two months with all the moves. They should settle on five, stay with them, and if Mulder returns maybe bump one who's going badly or just needs a little rest. You have a good weekend.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions

And let me say, I don't care at this point which

five--just get some answers on who you think might fit into next years rotation.

by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Actually I think we agreed on a similar topic

a few days ago. You have a good weekend too.

by nycardfan on Jul 27, 2007 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions

PJ Walters

So, apparently the kid throws a sinker (team will love that) AND a changeup that has screwball motion?

He doesn't walk anyone:
Through 107 2/3 innings this season at three levels, Walters has walked just 19 batters against 112 strikeouts. In 138 professional innings, Walters has allowed 28 walks.

Why isn't he starting tonight instead of Mike Maroth?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 4:27 PM EDT reply actions

because he's on the list

of PTBNL's for maroth, and therefore they can't play in the same league this season?

(god i hope that isn't true)

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 27, 2007 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Doubtful

Wasn't it stated that the PTBNL would be a reliever?

Maybe I'm just making that up in my head because I want it to be true.

by stl tyler on Jul 27, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

i remember hearing that too

anyway I was just being cynical there. Relieving the Friday afternoon doldrums...

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 27, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I certainly hope not

my heart skipped a beat when I read what you typed.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2007 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

They did say it would be for a reliever

and later added it would be a "fringe" player. But I don't know if general statements like that can be trusted since they were meant to downplay immediate worries about what we'll be losing in the future.

by nycardfan on Jul 27, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I heard that during the Cards vs Mets game

and it came from the Mets radio commentators. So that may not be the best source. They were talking about the details of the deal when Maroth played at NY.

by nycardfan on Jul 27, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh boy

Its looking like anything we gave up for Mike Maroth is too much. Unless of course his name is Randy Flores.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 27, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

On PJ Walters

I think we're still suffering from the Ankiel implosion. Ever since then, the Cards seem almost irrationally scared to give someone young a chance for fear that they can't handle the pressure. I understand the concern. But Ankiel shouldn't be used as a measure. He had very unusual circumstances. And we can see from a lot of other clubs who do reach down into AAA and AA that there are lots of young guys who can handle those kinds of pressure.

by nycardfan on Jul 27, 2007 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

So, uh, who do we trade?

Ok.. So it's doubtful that Izzy is going anywhere. It's doubtful (however noble, and I am proud of the Cards for being such a classy organization) that Springer is going anywhere. Looper apparently figures into next year's plans..

So who exactly are we supposed to trade? I can't imagine Encarnacion would bring anything more than a low level prospect and some salary relief. Is any borderline contender so desperate for a shortstop that they'd give up anything worthwhile for a battered and bruised, albeit scrappy, rental in David Eckstein?

I just don't understand what moves we're planning on making if all the good pieces are being taken off the board. Is Reyes' start against the Brew Crew just a show-off for scouts? Could Wonderbrad be dealt? I'd much sooner keep him and deal Looper.

I suppose we have other relievers, but none that would fetch as high a price as Izzy or Springer. Tyler Johnson might have made for a good trade if he hadn't spent the last month on the DL, though that would leave us with (groan) Randy Flores as our only bullpen lefty. Anyone interested in Percival could have had a shot at him already, any chance there's some renewed interest in him now that he's proven he can still hold his own in the majors?

by stl tyler on Jul 27, 2007 4:52 PM EDT reply actions

you made the point

We don't really have any quality trade pieces......no one who would bring futures value in return.

Only Izzy, who doesn't want to leave and doesn't have to. Besides, if we plan on contending in 08, we'll need a closer and his option is a bargain compared to what the other FA closers will bring.

Better get used to this hand of Cards

by Hinkster on Jul 27, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions