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hu we should trade for

long, long drove east in i-70 yesterday. the game fell apart just before i even got into ktrs' signal range (i heard the action on an affiliate). when i got to my folks' house and turned on the set, there was jocketty explaining that isringhausen isn't a likely candidate to be moved. paraphrasing him: "jason likes it here, and he has a full no-trade; he doesn't want to leave. and in any case, there isn't anyone available on the trade market who we find attractive. as we get closer to the deadline, maybe that will change; teams might make some talent available a few days from now that isn't available now."

that might just be walt blowin smoke; let's all hope it is. there is no reason to keep playing for this season, and with carpenter gone for most of 2007 it's more urgent than ever to make a move if the team wants to have a chance to compete in 2008. isringhausen is their only tradeable player who might fetch some impact talent in return; we got an approximation of his worth via yesterday's trade of scott linebrink from san diego to milwaukee for 3 minor leaguers. linebrink is not a closer and isn't under club control next season, which makes him less valuable than izzy; yet he fetched a good prospect, wil inman, who looks to be roughly analogous to cardinal farmhand tyler herron --- a high-round draft pick who dominated the low minors. he's still young and still a few years away, but the potential appears to be there for this kid to be very good. probably won't happen any time soon, though; he only got moved to double A last month and hasn't adjusted well --- 5.45 era in 8 starts, 7 homers in 39.2 innings. his ETA is probably 2009 at the earliest. one of the two other players in the deal, joe thatcher, is mildly intriguing --- a 25-year-old independent-league refugee with some gaudy minor-league stats this season. think josh kinney.

if the cardinals were to put izzy on the market, i'd like to see them pursue a player like the dodgers' chin-lung hu, who per a recent ken rosenthal column might be made available in the dodgers' attempt to land octavio dotel. this guy is a superior gloveman, a shortstop, with some speed and a decent batting eye; he is 23 years old and close to major-league ready. he didn't make Baseball America's list of la's top 10 prospects, but john sickels rated hu #5 in the system with this comment: "awesome defensive player with a bat that could develop further." it has developed this year, although it should be noted that those figures are ballpark-aided; he's batting .529 at home for las vegas (one of the hitter-friendliest parks in triple A) but .188 on the road; in double A he posted a .952 ops in his cozy home ballpark (jacksonville), .845 on the road. nonetheless, this is a guy who has the potential to solve the cardinals' shortstop problem through 2013 or so; his name has been mentioned here at VEB before by an astute reader.

if linebrink's worth inman and a couple of throw-ins, then surely izzy is worth hu + 2.

another team that's probably in the market for a big-time reliever is detroit. my SB Nation brother blogger ian casselberry at Bless You Boys is all over this; here he ponders the value of kyle farnsworth, and in another post he suggests zumaya and rodney may not be pitching at 100 percent. how funny would it be if the cardinals dealt troy percival back to them? . . . .

one last note about the trade market: the cardinals might balk at trading russ springer for the sake of the pitcher's autistic son. if springer isn't moved and that's the reason, more power to the cardinals.

* * * * * * * * * *

i see that my cameo in the Riverfront Times has been discovered. i just read the article and am not entirely comfortable with how it reads; let me clarify a couple of points. first, the writer took a bit of license in stating that "Borowsky cites several instances in which the Cardinals might have benefited from his observations." that's not how the conversation went; i was asked about some of the number-crunching we've done here at VEB, particularly with respect to reyes, and asked if what happened in seattle (where felix hernandez adjusted his pitch selection because of a post at the blog USS Mariner) could ever happen here. i said i would like to think so. that's a far cry from saying, in essence, that if the cardinals would be better off if they listened to me; i'm not that cocky. my statement at the end of the RFT piece is far more reflective of how i really feel:
"In the end, nobody knows it all," he says. "The fan know-it-all and the sabermetrics guy don't know it all. Neither does the guy in the uniform. Everyone takes their best guess. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes they look like a complete idiot."
in other words: i don't agree with everything the cardinals do, but i acknowledge that sometimes they're right and i'm wrong. sometimes it goes in the other direction.

here's the other point: the question isn't really whether the cardinals might learn a thing or two by listening to me; the question is whether they could learn by listening to us. i'm just one fan; i bring my knowledge and my opinions to the table, and so does everybody else, and we hash it out together at this blog in the comment threads and the diaries. the same thing happens at the many other cardinal blogs and chat sites, and on the better talk radio shows. sometimes we fumble toward a rough consensus, and sometimes there are sharp divisions. but if the cardinals (or any other organization) are going to derive any value from fan insight, it's going to be by paying attention to the discussions we have --- the collective wisdom, not just one person's opinion --- and by using the data we gather and present, as a group, during the course of our discussions. the reyes project is a perfect case in point. when i wrote about reyes' pitch selection with men on base and his good results on pitches up in the zone, the data i relied upon was collected by a member of the community --- Solanus, one of five volunteers who have been charting pitches all season.

i talked about some of the other good cardinal blogs and discussion sites with the RFT reporter, but that material didn't get into the article, probably because of space constraints. the article leaves the impression that it's all about me, or all about VEB, and i couldn't disagree more strongly with that. it's about the whole fan base. that didn't come across in the RFT piece, and i wish it had.

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That's pretty cool about the USS Mariner...
The Mariners pitching coach was humble enough to not only read that, but take advice from it and make Felix read it.

Can you imagine what LaDunca would do if some "blog writer" had the gall to give him pitching/managing advice? He'd likely throw glass of merlot in your face.

by TriplePlay on Jul 26, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LBoros
I would love to hear why LaRussa would dismiss the findings you and other contributors have shown on the site.  Have you ever tried to bring him on and ask him such questions?  It would really be great to her his opinion on the subject, and if they have people doing something similar within the organization.

by UNCDubya on Jul 26, 2007 9:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This
brings up something I have always kinda lamented.

When LaRussa started he was the rebel, brining detailed charting and other statistics into the dugout and into the game.

But now more than 25 years later, LaRussa is no longer the rebel and in some ways that is a shame. With all of the new statistics and the myriad of new possibilities out there for approaching and analyzing the game, I often wonder what a 34 year old first time MLB manager (as was the case for LaRussa in 1979) would do with all that has happened in the past decade. What ideas would the rebel embrace? How could/ would it change the game?

by JMedwick on Jul 26, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point, but would a ML manager
even have TIME to peruse this stuff?

by sdrone on Jul 26, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

RFT article
lboros,
As I read that article yesterday, I thought, "I know that's not what Larry said. I'm sure he talked about the community more than he talked about himself, and I'm sure there was a lot more hedging than comes across here."

Glad to hear I was right--you'd have a certain right to be that cocky if you wanted, but it sure didn't sound like you.

I've been mostly absent from game threads this season because I've been busy, but VEB is still the first place I go in the morning, and having it has helped mitigate the frustrations of this season. Keep up the great work.

by levistahl on Jul 26, 2007 9:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well...
As we move closer to the end of this all important home stand, it becomes clearer and clearer that making moves shooting for a pennant this season is foolish.

So what does this mean? Well as Larry started to discuss above, who should be trade and who should be trade for. While names like Edmonds and Rolen are bound to come up, their contracts are almost untradeable. Moreover, moving either now would be selling at their lowest point. Makes no sense to move them.

As for the rest of the team, well there are the ususal names:

Izzy
Juan E.
Springer
Franklin
Reyes
Eckstine

Of those above, I figure there is a market for the middle-relievers, Izzy, Reyes, and Eck. I figure we will be keeping Juan E unless we are making a package deal.

The idea of moving Izzy to the Dodgers or Indians is a particularly attractive one.

Not sure who would be interested in Eck, maybe the Red Soxs?

As for Reyes, has anyone thought about trading him straight up for someone like... Elijah Dukes?

A late 2008 outfield of Dukes, Ankiel, and Duncan wouldn't be too bad.

by JMedwick on Jul 26, 2007 9:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I really hope we don't trade Reyes,
especially with TLR looking more and more likely he'll be gone at the end of the year.  I think you can add him to your "selling low" list.

by outraged on Jul 26, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dukes - no way
Talent or not, Elijah Dukes does not belong in baseball.  Anyone who threatens his girlfriend and child belongs in jail.  End of story.
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by TurdFerguson on Jul 26, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can we stop with
the personal attacks on peoples mistakes.  I don't condone his actions what so ever but we are here to talk about baseball.  He has the potential to be an exceptional baseball player and has loads of talent.  If he can get personal help and grow up I would love to have him on the team.  People live and learn and I'm sure none of us are perfect.  A new setting with some veteran leadership might just be exactly what the kid needs.

by DJ4508 on Jul 26, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that was a personal attack
A players off-field problems are important when they keep him off the playing field.  Dukes has had allot more problems then the incident where he threatened to kill his wife and child, which was absolutly dispicable.  Dukes is the kind of guy you caould give garunteed money to and then pay him to sit in jail.

by gonzostl on Jul 26, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you serious?
Elijah Dukes should be out of baseball.  He's had more run-ins with the law than PacMan Jones.

Oh - and his run-ins continue.  Check this out.

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trades
What about and Izzy for Andrew Miller on Detroit, makes sense for both clubs.  Detraoit may not get a better chance than this year to win the title, and Andrew Miller is not implemented as a starter quite yet anyway.

by briferg07 on Jul 26, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish...
Detroit would never make that deal.  It would be nice if they did.  But this guy was the number 6 pick in the draft last year, and made it to the majors in less than 1 year.  He is going to be a stud.  No way Detroit trades him for a 35 year old closer in the last year of his contract(though he there is a club option for next year).

by Irishman on Jul 26, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm.....no
we have Mike Maroth because Detroit opened a spot in the rotation for Andrew Miller....he's definitely in their future plans.

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

we could always give them
mike maroth back if they wanted ;)
Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 26, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One minor league question
People have discussed how Bryan Anderson is talented offensivley, but with Molina's defensive value, Anderson may not make it as a catcher in the minors.

Here is the question: what other positions has the team considered for Anderson? With the seemingly constant void at 2nd, would the cards consider moving him there? What about 3rd?

by JMedwick on Jul 26, 2007 9:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

From lboros' interview with Luhnow:
"Is Bryan Anderson a good enough athlete that he might be able to handle third base or a corner outfield spot? Does he project as a good enough hitter for those spots?
Bryan is a catcher, and that is where we want him to stay. He is a left-handed hitter with gap and over-the-fence power. There is no reason to move him, as he is playing a premium position, one that is harder to find than any other position --- especially with a bat."

by outraged on Jul 26, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
Sounds like more of the organizational split then, because the LaDuncan group has made clear in other interviews, such as those with Joe Strauss and Derick Gould that LaDuncan put a high value on Molina's defensive and game calling skills. And to be fair, I agree with LaDuncan on this. Molina seems to handle the staff well and defensively is excellent, especially his ability to shut down the stolen base game. Anderson does not seem to have that same ability. So back to the question, if moved, where would be move too? If Rolen is going to continue to decline I would prefer 3rd, but 2nd would be an interesting option for an organization with so few decent middle infield prospects.

by JMedwick on Jul 26, 2007 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess would be they move him
to another team.  Either that or they end up trading Yadi as he gets more expensive.  If they do end up moving him to another position, I don't think it'd be third.  If Rolen improves, then it's occupied.  If he doesn't, it'd be really difficult to unload that contract.

by outraged on Jul 26, 2007 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Catchers generally don't
make good MI. Also, Anderson is throwing out 40% of runners, that's nothing to sneeze at. And how much is shutting down the running game really worth? Unless runners are stealing at a decently high success rate, it's not all that important anyway. Molina's value comes from hosing people on the basepaths. When they stop running, he stops generating outs. His arm is worth roughly ten runs a year probably, and he's not particularly great at blocking balls.

Anderson is a legit hitter. An .800 OPS is worth much more than the .630 Molina has generated thus far. He's a replacement level hitter basically.

We're probably going to disagree on the staff handling, but I don't know of any report that says Anderson is bad in this regard. Also, while I don't believe in CERA whatsoever, Molina isn't exactly making a case for himself this year.

If Anderson is ready, and hitting, it's an absolute no-brainer.

by plh903 on Jul 26, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well at least
Yadi has a year or two before Anderson pushes him for the job.

Remember that Yadi broke his wrist - again.  I still think he has offensive upside.  And he's flat-out the best defensive catcher in the game.  

I'm fine with him as a "stop gap" until this Anderson stud develops.  Why are we even debating this right now with such other pressing issues in the organization?

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Side Question
SB-

I had a question for you.  I was wondering at what point they decide to do tommy john surgery.  When I pitched in school, my elbow was described as severly strained and my doctor recommended that I shut it down because eventually it would fail and require sugery.  I was wonder if there is a rule of thumb for a pitcher about how much of a tear/strain will require sugery?

by BigJawnMize on Jul 26, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the main site...
there's a lengthy article related to Carp's injury/surgery from Dr. Paletta.  I found it worth reading.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 26, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paletta's interview
does shed some light.  

In most cases, TJS is a worst-case scenario.  All this crap you hear about the ligament being better than the original is a bunch of bullshit.  You cannot replace a ligament with a tendon and expect it to have the same tensile strength and longevity as the original. Most pitchers will have UCL fraying or tearing; its the nature of the beast.  The degree of the tearing (over time or acute rupturing) depends on many factors, including heredity, pitching mechanics, history (little league, high school etc), pitch counts...

To answer your question, A ruptured UCL needs Tommy John.  A strained/painful medial elbow may or may not be related to a ligament tear/sprain, and surgery is not the treatment of choice - conservative methods are.  In Carpenter's (and F. Liriano's) case, his ligament stretched out over time.  Look at everything the medical staff tried before finally giving in and performing TJS.

Medial elbow pain is always a bad sign especially in young pitchers.  The pitcher should be SHUT DOWN until the pain subsides and he can achieve complete pain relief and also demonstrate full ROM and strength in the elbow and wrist.

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I happen to think
that Molina is part of the problem. It's a pressing issue that we seem to be trying to collect every 600 OPS player in the league and give them tons of at-bats. I mean, every player that's not part of the solution is part of the problem.

Sure, Yadi has a golden arm. I know that I may not be in the majority on this, but I think that's worth about ten runs, and that's about all he brings over replacement.

I guess there are more pressing issues, but to me, he's part of the problem. We don't have a 900 run offense that can get away with a black hole like him in the lineup. Same goes for giving a million at-bats to Miles.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that thought we weren't going to get another 2004 performance out of MV3 this year, so the replacement level at-bats are possibly THE problem in my mind. That is, if we are able to talk about the offense separate from the abysmal pitching.

by plh903 on Jul 26, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you.......
I absolutely would like to have a catcher who can hit a little-preferably a lot.....as long as his defensive skills are not bad like Michal Barrett--
but good to almost great--think Martin, McCann, Mauer, Posada, heck even LoDuca can handle the bat and is an adequate catcher.  Nothing against Yadi, he's the defensive gold standard, but if Bryan Anderson develops well enough in the position, I'd love to see him with the Cards.

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slightly O/T,
does Jorge Posada get the credit he deserves?  Yeah, I know he's playing in media central, but even so I don't think enough fans really appreciate just what an amazing hitter (for a catcher) that he's been, and that he's keeping it up into his mid 30s.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 26, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes and no
coming from a guy living in ny, i would say posada probably does get the credit he deserves in comparison to other catchers, or at least close - 5-time all-star, 4-time silver slugger (and probably win that for the 5th time this year), etc.

what he doesn't get is the credit he deserves in relation to the other yankees. people here love him, wear his jersey, whatever, but it's always in the "lovable underdog" sense - he's the down-to-earth guy, not the actual superstar like jeter, giambi, mussina etc. but there have been years where he's been more valuable than jeter, with this year potentially being one of them.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 26, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

c'mon
Light hitting catchers are the rule, not the exception.  I just don't see the dilemma here.  There's no alternative to Yadi right now and if Anderson comes up and challenges him for the job, all the better.

I'm just lost as to the anti-Yadi sentiment.  Sure, his hitting is "part of the problem."  But this team is full of OPS sinkholes at positions that are traditional power positions - hence they should be easier to fill via free agency or trading for/drafting talent.  

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's why
It's more important, if you end up with somebody like a Pudge Rodriguez, Joe Mauer, Brian McCann, Victor Martinez, or pre-broken-ankle Jason Kendall, you maximize his value.

by whopperman on Jul 26, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is what it boils down to...
You have pretty much summed up the argument for the pro-Anderson bunch.

"But this team is full of OPS sinkholes at positions that are traditional power positions - hence they should be easier to fill via free agency or trading for/drafting talent."

This makes Anderson all the more valuable.  Point being, it's hard to find a good hitting catcher.  That's why it makes all the sense in the world to hang onto the one we have.  

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh...
is the argument "trade him" vs. "don't trade him"??

The mark me down for "don't trade him."

Keep Yadi while he's cheap - let him help groom his replacement, and wish him well in free agency.

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand
where you are coming from here. But Molina has been far from a ho-hum light-hitting catcher. Over his time with the Cardinals he's accumulated a -24 VORP or thereabouts.

It's one thing for established players, or worthwhile gambles, to underperform their expectations and projections. But to knowingly give thousands of at-bats to players like Yadi and Miles, based on some I don't know what, intangibles, is something that could have been stopped from happening.

Molina's the best catcher we have right now. Fine. That's not really my issue here.

by plh903 on Jul 26, 2007 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would hope
he has upside.

Only one direction he can go with the bat.

by whopperman on Jul 26, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Historical Trend
I agree that it may look like an organizational split, but I think the Matheny --> Molina transition serves as an example of what could happen to Anderson and Molina. I could see them dumping Bennett, brining up Anderson to learn from Molina, and then letting Molina go in FA or through a trade when they feel Anderson has learned the game-calling ropes.
Remember, Molina wasn't a great game-caller when he came up either, but his bat was seen as superior to Matheny's and they knew they could teach him to call a good major league game...

by duncansarmy on Jul 26, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this comparison is the right one
Let Anderson season himself in the bigs for a year or two as Yadi's backup, then give Anderson the job once Yadi becomes too expensive to keep (or when he starts experiencing the inevitable breakdown of a catcher's body). Let someone else overpay him the same way the Giants overpaid Matheny.

by DCRedbird on Jul 26, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So....
let your #2 prospect play once or twice a week for two years?

No thanks.  I can see him coming up in late'08 and SPLITTING time with Molina, but there is just no benefit to having him be a backup.  That would only hinder his development.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He'll
still only be like 22 -- playing him 2 or 3 times a week isn't that insane.
Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 26, 2007 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually it might be a smart way for him to learn
what he needs to do to handle a major league pitching staff.  Catchers, like pitchers, still have a lot to learn.  Heck I should be fair--they all still have a lot to learn once they make it to the bigs.

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anderson/Molina
The only moving that will happen is Molina being traded to whatever team LaRussa goes to manage next, just as soon as Anderson is ready.

If Anderson can handle C defensively, which all signs point to him being able to, why move him to another position where his bat doesn't play nearly as well.  Makes no sense.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, you've hit on something
here, come to think of it.  Our best shot at ridding ourselves of scrubby bats and middle-infield gritmeisters is to chase off LaRussa.  You're right, that's the key to getting rid of Miles, Gooch, Bennett, etc.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 26, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad to hear this
I don't buy into this recent trend (throughout baseball) to move any decent hitting catcher or middle infielder to some corner position, where there's already plenty of offensive talent.

It's clear from other threads that many people buy heavily into the value of a defensive specialist behind the plate, and I don't know how to win that argument.  They say a catcher like that "controls the running game" and "calls a good game," I say he burns 3 or 4 of our 27 outs every night.

But we get virtually no offensive production from our middle infield spots, and aren't likely to until we can acquire some talent there.  And Molina is one in a line of Cardinals catchers as far back as I can remember with a good glove but a poor bat.  So I think Anderson is highly valuable to this organization AS A CATCHER.

by bgodar on Jul 26, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He could make it...
...as a catcher in the bigs.  I saw him at quad cities last year.  He actually does a lot of thing very smoothly behind the plate.  He is atheltic, recieves the ball smoothly, has a quick release on a good arm.  The pass balls are troubling, no doubt, but some of this will improved as he catches pitchers with better control as he moves up the ladder.  He does enough well that he needs to stay put.

by BigJawnMize on Jul 26, 2007 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if he can hit 25-30 hr's a year
as a catcher i dont care if he cant even throw the ball to second base i would start him over molina

by jojo5492 on Jul 26, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anderson's swing
doesn't project to generating 25-30 HR.  He's got a level line-drive style swing that's going to lead to more doubles than HRs.  In a peak year. . .he may hit the high teens but 25-30 HR is an overestimate of his power.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair though,
while I agree with you about his swing, he is 20 years old right now. I definitely wouldn't project him annually at 25-30 either, but I could see him doing better than 17-18 in a peak year.

I think Goldstein said lately that he's the type of catcher you see hitting in the two-hole. Not that I agree necessarily on what type of hitter should hit where, but I agree with what he means by that wrt to Anderson.

by plh903 on Jul 26, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sounds like...
a Biggio-type cacther, perhaps?

by redrey on Jul 26, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paul Lo Duca
is what I envision.

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian McCann
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh...
with more footspeed.
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In my ever so humble opinion,
Anderson compares better to Joe Mauer than Brian McCann.  He runs better than McCann, (not quite so thick through the middle) with a little less power.  Beautiful stroke with the bat, though.  I could see the guy hitting over .300 most of his career if he continues to develop.  

Very exciting player.  And, for the record, his defense is much better than a lot of people who throw around the term "offensive catcher" think.  Very good arm, good catch and throw skills, just needs to improve on the balls in the dirt.  He's nice and mobile, though, so I think that'll come with time.  

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 26, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry but this is a goofy debate
anderson has thrown out 40% of would be base stealers. yadi has done about the same in the bigs. but yadi has a career .224 EqA while Anderson's #1 PECOTA comp is Brian McCann...and the kid can control the running game. anderson had a higher EqA in low a. (.249)

Give me Anderson over Yadi any day.

by erik on Jul 26, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you said it much
better than i could. i think a lot of people here have an unreasonable love of yadi

by jojo5492 on Jul 26, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nail on the head...
"i think a lot of people here have an unreasonable love of yadi"

He is quite possibly the most overrated player, by the fanbase, that I have seen since starting to follow this club 15 years ago.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

did u guys forget about nlcs game 7
and the entire playoffs last year.  maybe thats y... yadi was basically our best player in the playoffs including that game winning home run.  i dont know about u guys but i will always love yadi for that home run
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 26, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can love him for that HR
and still think he's a liability as a baseball player.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I do....
One playoff series does not a baseball player make.

His career OPS+ is 64.  64!!!  The guy can not hit, period.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

see also: taguchi, so
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 26, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

of course hes a liability
its just some people couldnt understand the "unreasonable love for yadi" and i was pointing out the clear reason y cardinal fans love him
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 26, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know...
Seems to me the irrational love has been there from almost day one.
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hu...
The preseason knock on Hu was that he was glove, no bat.  As he has continued to hit this year, BA has admitted that they were wrong about him in a lot of columns.  He was recently listed on their "on the rise" section that included Anderson and Ottavino.  My feelings are that he would crack the Top 5 of our system instantly, and probably would make a strong case for number 2.  

Should we acquire him, I feel we make Scotty legally change his last name to, "I don't know."  

by Brock20 on Jul 26, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or at least
Give him a glove so he can spell Albert in the late innings.

by Cardinal70 on Jul 26, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hu looked good in the one game I saw
Albeit, it was the Futures game, but Hu was the MVP of the game.
Getting a little winded on the 2007 victory lap

by BozCardsFanSF on Jul 26, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your daily Mark Mulder tease

Mark Mulder is scheduled to throw another 80-pitch session Friday and then probably return to Florida where, as early as next week, he could throw to batters. That would be the final step before he begins a rehab assignment.

Tony also said they could get cutesy with the roster moves on Saturday for bullpen help.  No offense, Tony but your use of the bullpen up until this point (throwing certain guys 2 innings), including using Kelvin freaking Jiminez should allow you to not worry about a burnt out bullpen.  It's been clear from Tuesday's game that you were more worried about the games this weekend than the ones that sit before you.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 26, 2007 10:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
there is any way that the Dodgers will move Hu for anything other than a top-line starter.  His star is on the rise (deserved or not), and after his season he'll probably make a few Top 50 lists and maybe a few Top 25's.  Being in the Top 10 of the Dodgers system is saying a lot.  My guess is that they would move Furcal before they would move Hu.  As evidenced by the influx of Kemp, Loney, and Martin, the Dodgers aren't afraid to go with youth. (Rosenthal's article makes no sense, anyway.  If the bat is a question, why would the Royals move him off short?)
I still think the more reasonable play is to go for Asdrubal Cabrera from the Indians or Ben Zobrist from the Rays.  The Indians could definitely use a bullpen arm (and have Peralta signed at short), and Zobrist could probably be had for cheap.

by sdangler on Jul 26, 2007 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The real question about Hu
is how he'll play at 2B, where TLR would stick him until he's "ready" to take over for Miles at SS.  I'm only half kidding.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 26, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
What makes you thing Zobrist could be had for cheap?

I disagree with your original point as well.  If Saito can't come back, then they would be all over Izzy.  In fact, Hu probably isn't enough on their end to get the deal done.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW
I like Cabrera better than Hu myself.
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zobrist....
Is stuck between Harris who is having a career year and Brignac who is the future SS in TB.  

Zobrist is expendable.  

by Brock20 on Jul 26, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh yes...
My fault, I was getting Zobrist confused with Brignac.

My bad.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone else realize that Brendan Ryan
is 20 for 56 (.357) as a position player?

At some point, the bubble may burst but let us give the kid a chance to play.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 26, 2007 11:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He's also got 2 hits in
5 of the last 6 games he recieved at-bats in.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 26, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's about due then...
to be sent back to AAA. He should be starting everyday at SS over Eck until he proves he can't handle it.

by TriplePlay on Jul 26, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given how excretable Miles has been
I don't understand why Ryan can't take his ABs and provide A) above average defense and B) a possible -- perhaps not probable -- offensive upgrade.  

Aaron Miles needs to be sent to AAA.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what
is Miles' contract?
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 26, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Major League but...
he is still arbitration eligible for one more year.   Can't just be dumped that easily.

by StLHugo on Jul 26, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why not?
He is performing at replacement level, which means he is, well, replaceable.

by mikedallas23 on Jul 26, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup
say we trade Miles to allow Ryan a permanent spot on the team. Then, if Eck, really wants to stay, we sign him at a utlity spot for a couple years at a significant discount (with his injuries and age, he shouldn't get a huge contract from anywhere else -- think Mark Loretta). This way, if Ryan doesn't work out, we have a decent SS to take over.

Basically, when it comes to it, I'd rather have Ryan-Kennedy-Eckstein than Ryan-Kennedy-Miles.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 26, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm...
I like that line of thinking, aet.  If the Cardinals could trade for someone like Hu, though, they could allow Eck to walk, take the draft pick, move Miles in a package, (and by that I mean a package player deal, or, failing that, just put him in a box and have UPS take him someplace) stick Ryan at 2b, and make Kennedy you MI utility guy, with Spiezio handling the backup corner IF and occasional OF duties.  Kennedy would still be overpaid, probably even more so, as a utility player, but the other guys in the middle would cost nothing, and, to me at least, paying Kennedy the money would sting a lot less if he were a useful fill in, rather than and everyday anchor.  
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 26, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no one will trade for Miles
The Cardinals simply need to realize he is a terrible player and send him to Memphis.  He's well below replacement level -- he's at -3.1 according to VORP and his defense is really bad.  Aaron Miles should not be on the team.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To elaborate on his defense
if he qualified Miles would be the worst defensive SS and the third worst defensive 2B just ahead of Craig Biggio.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well
allow me to ellaborate --

I was more regarding to either a) a package deal or b) a contender that absolutely needs a utility player for very little cost.

I realize we would not receive much in return, but at the very least, we could get something, and at 31, we have no need for him in our minors when we know that he's already peaked in potential.

It may be tough to find a suitor, but you can't tell me that you haven't seen crazier trades before.

I do agree, though, that if it comes down to sending down Ryan or Miles (if a trade does not work out), that Ryan deserves to be the one to stay on the team.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 26, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the problem is
absolutely needs a utility player for very little cost

Aaron Miles isn't a utility player.  He's bad defensively and he can't hit.  He lacks even one average tool.  At least Neifi Perez could field the ball.  

You show me a team that has a worse utility infielder they could replace and I'll show you a) a player in their AAA who is better than Miles or b) a reason why that team's management is obsessed with intangibles or some other garbage reason for keeping that player.  

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're ruling out that
option "b" could also be a reason they might want Miles. After all, we traded for him, and we was traded a few times before then. Some ignorant GM (e.g. Bavasi) sees a guy like Miles, the hustle he puts forth, and that he was on a championship team (brining in the good ol' overrated "experience" reasoning) and you've got yourself a suitor.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 26, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no
I don't know how to say this more clearly: No MLB team is going to want Aaron Miles for any reason.

If you recall, Bigbie was the "centerpiece" in that trade (which was really more about getting Ray King the hell off the team after he bad mouthed it) and Miles was a random after thought.

GMs may make some silly trades but show me a trade where a below replacement level (not just average, he's worse than replacement level) offensive and defensive middle infielder has been moved at the deadline in the last 10 years.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont know if its the socks
but i love this kid.  hes fast and can hit and also had a bunt single.  when was the last time the cards had a bunt single? A: 1907.  also i was at the game and dont know if they showed on tv how whenever he got on base he was constently dancing around the bag driving lilly crazy.  overal night 2-3 w/ a walk.  i think he should be tried out at 1 or 2... too bad hes been shunned to the 8 spot cause hes a rookie.
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 26, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they actually made a big deal out of it
something to the effect of "brendan ryan never stops moving, he's really annoying Lilly, etc"
Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 26, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love the high socks.......
my own kid wears 'em like that

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ryan..
I don't think the kid can be a major league regular, but he is certainly making a case to get a chance to prove it.

I say move Eck to some contending team, and let Ryan play EVERYDAY for the rest of the season.  At the very least, he saves you some money by replacing Miles as the backup MI.  He's also a much better player.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why don't you think he can be a ML regular?
What has he done so far to prove otherwise? I bet you didn't think Duncan could be a ML regular either.

by TriplePlay on Jul 26, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For starters...
it was the .660 OPS he put up in AAA this year.  I really have no doubts about him being able to hold down the position defensively as he is already leaps and bounds better than anyone currently on the team.

I just question his bat holding up, and yes...it's quite possible I'm wrong.  He has definitely earned the shot to prove it one way or the other though.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope....
I hope walt pull sthe trigger on as many moves as possible to build for the future.  I really feel ike the cards need to take a note from the blues and build for the future.  Trading away what yuou can for prospects.  I don't think the cards need to be as revamped as the blues were but to a semi strong degree. ( I don't even know what I mean by that so don't ask). I just feel like walt won't pull the trigger but I hope I am wrong.

Go cards

2/3rd's of the earth is covered by water, the other third is coverd by Jim Edmonds

by cardsphan04 on Jul 26, 2007 12:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Personal Attacks?
I have lived in Cincy for several years now, so I've constantly heard about character flaws, off-field incidents, etc..
I do not want someone on the team that we are worrying about off the field.  Josh Hamilton was a different story.  He made some substance abuse problems as a young kid and learned from them.  The Dukes situation (and Chris Henry, Pacman, Olsen, take your pick) is different b/c it involved repetitive incidents and violence towards others.  
Just my 2 pennies.

by toris34 on Jul 26, 2007 1:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I would not want to take a chance on him
until he's turned the corner....I don't believe in denying him another chance if he does.  He's not there yet and he may never be, but he needs to get himself out of Florida at some point and away from some of the people surrounding him.

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true cards fan
I was suffering through all these losses until I realized that it is going to take a losing streak to get walt to realize that we aren't a contender and that we need to SELL!!
trade for youth!

by stlknows on Jul 26, 2007 1:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So, who was at the game last night?
I was taking my walk and I can barely get the KTRS station to tune in, so I really couldn't get a good description of Wainwright's meltdown.....what happened?

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 1:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not much really
I wasn't at the game but I watched it ;)  Not much really caused the meltdown.  He opened the inning with his 7th K and all seemed to be rolling forward in the Soriano AB until he put a ball in GREAT location low almost on the ground, easily a ball if not swung at, and Soriano launches it into the corner for a 1 out triple.  After that I remember 2 other balls hit off great low in the zone pitches and at least 2 that were left in the middle of the zone.  It was just one of those innings where things fall all over the place.  It only got worse with 2 outs too, that inning was just weird and confusing and I almost want Waino to just forget it completely and focus on what he did the other 4 innings of work.

by StLHugo on Jul 26, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright
In that particular inning, there were a couple of balls that just sort of fell in, so there was some bad luck involved, but it also looked to me like Adam may have been tipping something.  I didn't see anything in particular in his delivery, but it seemed that the Cubs got very swings on a couple of pitches that you wouldn't expect to see that kind of hard contact.  Maybe he got a little too predictable with his pitch pattern or something, too.  I'm not really sure, but, like I said, it looked as if they were hitting pitches you don't normally see a pitcher get knocked around on.  

It also could have just been some bad luck, but it just looked a little odd to me.  At the very least, the Cubs didn't look like they were out if front of any of his offspeed stuff, which often says, to me at least, that they have a pretty good idea it's coming.  

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 26, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the Cards study film of upcoming teams,
it's probable the Cubs do too. Maybe they picked up on pitching patterns.....even before the game.

by jillsinmo on Jul 26, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Next time through the order
It's only a gut feeling, but it seemed to me that AW played all his cards a little too early. He was making the cubs look foolish -- I mean just textbook strike-outs. But, it looked like the cubs were able to figure out what he was trying to do and started hitting some pretty decent pitches.

by jimstllax on Jul 26, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yadi put the curveball away for a rainy day
after Wainwright made them look ridiculous the first time through, Yadi stopped calling for it.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 26, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chin Lung Hu
is a name I really like in the market this season.  He appears to have really stepped up his offensive production this season, which was the only knock on him previously.  I actually saw him in a game last year, and I was flat out amazed at his defense.  The kid is an absolute wizard.  (and I don't say that lightly, having grown up watching a wizard at short)  He was still playing alongside Etanislau (Tony) Abreu at the time, and I recall thinking that if you were to put those two behind someone like Brandon Webb, he would never give up another run.  

Hu is the sort of player I think the Cardinals need to focus all of their resources on acquiring at the moment.  Please, please, please, guys, just admit that this year is a wash.  It happens.  Get over it, and focus on making sure we don't have to watch this kind of baseball for very long.  

Hu at short, Rolen at third, Ryan at second, and Albert at first next season would be, probably, the best defensive infield in all of baseball.  Excellent call, Larry.  

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 26, 2007 2:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

(deflating trombone sound effect)
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 26, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha ha
That amused me.

by liam on Jul 26, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice dream...
But I can't see it happening. Either trading for him, or him actually starting at SS, under current management.  

Look at everything Chris Duncan has done, and somehow it's still not good enough for Tony to play him every day.

by DiscoJer on Jul 26, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jarrett Hoffpauir
Kevin Goldstein over at BP gives Hoffpauir a little love today, ranking him the #9 2B prospect in baseball:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6500

-------
9. Jarrett Hoffpauir, Cardinals
Age: 24.1
Hitting: .345/.420/.527 at Double-A (61 G); .333/.420/.533 at Triple-A (18 G)

This is the biggest breakout of the bunch. Hoffpauir was a sixth-round pick in 2004, and he always put up impressive numbers in college, but an Eckstein-esque frame and lack of tools prevented him from being seen as an elite pick. His numbers this year are nothing short of fantastic, and all of the peripherals indicate that it just might be for real, including more walks (35) than strikeouts (25) in 263 at-bats. Scouts are impressed with Hoffpauir's feel for contact, but he's not just a slap hitter, as he can punish mistakes by driving them into the gaps. Defensively, he's made just five errors on the season, though his first step is a little slow, and he's not especially rangy. If the Cardinals go into a full rebuilding mode, the player who was on the verge of oblivion going into the year is suddenly looking like he just might get a chance.

by mikedallas23 on Jul 26, 2007 3:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If only...
Kennedy were not under contract for two more years.

Imagine if we could get all of these contracts off the books...Izzy, Juan, Eck, Kennedy, Jimmy.

That is some major cash...enough for a legit hitter and starting pitcher.

We could be major players in the FA market and still "rebuild on the fly".

Ahhh..to dream...

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

imagine carp and scotty too
i bet $27m/year could buy better than those two from here on out.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 26, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

was just gonna post that
"biggest breakout"? that's really intriguing.

i also emailed will carroll re: his george paletta comment.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 26, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll be interested to see
his comments on Paletta.  What he said makes sense to me.

by silent_bob on Jul 26, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hoff's range
really bothers me.   I just don't think he has enough bat to overcome this at a major league level.  

by Hammondsbird on Jul 26, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
Kennedy got a 3 year deal.
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 26, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are the Brewers cheating at home?
700 winning at home, and the BUH-LOW on the road.  

The Cardinals really blew a golden chance this week.  The Reds take 3 of 4 from the BrewCrew and the Cardinals can't beat the Cubs.  Instead of being 9 games out, we'd be 7, chance to move to 6 tonight with 4 coming up against them.

Blah.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 26, 2007 3:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hu
I have seen Hu and he is a really good player.  Great bat speed, goes opposite field really well.  Shows surprising pop.  Tremendous speed.  Thats pretty good offensive tools and his defense is much better than his offense.  Great range, tremendous arm, he is really electric in the field.  Here are some pics if interested:
http://whiteyball.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/chin-lung-hu-dodgers/

by whiteyball on Jul 26, 2007 4:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
for putting a face to a name. And the info, good stuff.

by plh903 on Jul 26, 2007 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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