You gotta take what they give ya

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 12:33 PM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News

This team just seems to be fantastic at finding new ways to lose. It seems like a lot of you in the comments are using this as an excuse to get angry and frustrated with our redbirds.

Certainly, during the game, when it looks like there's actually some hope for the team, this make ssome sense. But to carry over this rage at the team whenever anything else happens, doesn't make any sense to me. In particular, I still don't see the actual reasoning behind the rage at Juan Encarnación. It just doesn't make sense to me. He gives you league average production at slightly below league average price. He's even had a bunch of clutch hits for us this season, yet still there's this continual hatred direct at him, in the comment threads hear and elsewhere in Cardsland. I hear the argument that his salary is a wast, to which I say that

1) it wasn't at the time that he was signed, when the Cardinals were trying to maintain their playoff run and needed reliable outfield production and someone to spell Jim Edmonds, who was looking older and would probably need to start missing games.

2) His production could be replaced by replacement level players like Ankiel, Ludwick or Rodriguez. Ankiel pretty clearly isn't ready to produce at the majors yet--he walks to little, and strikes out too much, without really making enough contact to mask that. Ludwick has put up very similar numbers to Juan, albeit with more on base ability and less power. Expose Ludwick more, and imagine what will happen to those numbers. Johnny Rod, I can't explain, other than saying that Enc bats from the right side and plays all three outfield positions, and Rodriguez barely can play the corner spots. But then again, why is Skippy on the roster other than to spell Edmonds?

Though Rodriguez might be a slightly better option, the point is that Enc has provided exactly what was promised--reliable major league production at a middling price. For a 2006 team looking to contend for a title, this was important--a replacement level player that you're going to call up is going to have erratic performance, and will on average, be below average.

I can understand wanting to upgrade his spot in the outfield, and if someone has a realistic way of doing that (i.e., trading Reyes for Carlos Quentin), then have at it. I just don't understand the invective against Juan for having "the wrong look in his eyes" or whatever.

As for the rest of the team, my suggestion is to start asking the question, WWUD: What would Uecker do? If you read around the blogs about the bad teams, they all seem to be very good at asking this question, and reveling at the good, and mocking the bad. It's how I got through the 90's, making jokes about José Jiménez being kept on the roster just to face the Diamondbacks in the postseason, or about the Lankford/Tewksberry dance club for good players (sorry, I was fourteen). But the point is, continual, irrational rage is going to do nothing for anyone's emotional state, and there are some funny things to notice about this team, and there are some good things, and it's time that we learned how to take the wins with the losses.

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Comments

I guess you could add JRod to the LaDunc

doghouse. He really seems to be a better option than some of the other outfielders already here. But they have shown a real reluctance to do anything other than keep him buried at AAA.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 12:31 PM EDT reply actions

He's hurt now

Probably done for the year...last I heard he was going to be needing surgery.

by whopperman on Jul 18, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Bad news for carp?

Rumors are floating around that he needs tommy john's... supposedly it will be announced in the next day or two.

by jeff abs on Jul 18, 2007 12:32 PM EDT reply actions

Wow....how do they miss something like that?

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions

please be wrong

that extension is going to look ugly fast if that's the case.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions

2nd Op?

Wouldn't this be his 2nd Tommy John operation? Or was his extended two year DL stay for something else?

by sdelek on Jul 18, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions

nope

That first 2-year stay on the DL was something with his shoulder -- a torn labrum, if I recall correctly.

by DCRedbird on Jul 18, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Too lazy to look up.

I believe he had Tommy John early in his career with Toronto. It may have just been elbow problems though.

by Carps on Jul 18, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Spurs

He had the same bone spurs that he is dealing with now as his first major injury in Toronto.

by bdief on Jul 18, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Rolen is flying back to St. Louis

He will have an injection in his shoulder and will be back with the team on Thursday.

More than likely, that means Tony won't let him back on the field for 30 days (ala Edmonds).

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 12:36 PM EDT reply actions

Or until he passes his "fitness"

test...

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Rolen, Speez out.

So who plays 3B today?

by redrey on Jul 18, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions

TLR is Creative

And gets So Taguchi over there. ;)

by Cardinal70 on Jul 18, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Brendan Ryan

He played there for a few innings a coupla days ago and was brought up to replace Speeze.

by liam on Jul 18, 2007 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Not ragging on Ryan...

I have enjoyed watching Ryan this season but why is he going to play 3rd? Isn't he a middle infielder? Don't the Cards have a 3rd baseman in their system somewhere? If not, why the heck not? I don't understand.

by sweet number 5 on Jul 18, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions

So?..

This means that all his " My shoulder feels fine" is a bunch of crap?

by Timbo02 on Jul 18, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions

I kind of wondered that

too. Does his shoulder hurt, or did Tony TELL him his shoulder hurt? Very weird turn of events.

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Players want to play

Jimmy might be saying, "my shoulder feels fine... (enough)", and might have done this repeatedly in the past, and Tony's sick of it.

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

It appears he was

'feeling discomfort' in his shoulder. He may or may not be back in time for the Atlanta series.

If they find something structurally wrong, no injection in the world is going to fix that.

He was making better swings and his defense was still top notch. I know a lot of people thought he was injured because his power numbers were down but I just had trouble believing that he was still able to play at the level he is now (strong throws, pulling the ball well) with an injury.

However, he did run into a pitcher covering the 1st base bag, didn't he this weekend? Was it Sunday?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes

it was during Sunday's game. Wince-tastic...

by glennrwordman on Jul 18, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes,

there was a bad throw, and the pitcher had to double back to tag the base, causing Rolen to glance off him.

"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 18, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Bernies says on his board and the radio

the following about Rolen:

Text message from D. Goold in FLA, with additional reporting by Joe Strauss ... and we'll have much more online later at STLtoday.com:

Rolen asked for this....
Rolen wanted to see the doc...
According to Rolen, not a pain issue as much as it is him being confused / baffled/ saddened by his lack of production; he hates hurting the team like this and he wants to see if his problems are medically related.

Ryan at 3B tonight...

by rjg001 on Jul 18, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

If he's going to see

Paletta, he's screwed.

"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 18, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions

can of worms = opened

it wasn't at the time that he was signed
When Juan was signed he was billed as a core player that would blossom in STL. Even with his above average defense (of which I believe to be true) he's been a marginal player despite being clutch this year. He was signed to fill a role that was beyond his skillset.

reliable outfield production and someone to spell Jim Edmonds, who was looking older and would probably need to start missing games
Juan's a streaky hitter with a terrible OBP, that's not reliable production at all. The later portion of that "spelling edmonds" is the real problem with the situation. In CF, Juan is much more palatable. The team is unwilling to move him to a position where his defense would be of more use instead playing Taguchi whose defense has eroded preciptously this year.

His production could be replaced by replacement level players
Again, this is the issue. When you purchase a player with marginal offensive value, any decrease in that value and you are at replacement level with the bat. Replacement level is free(!) for teams willing to find/play the Ryan Ludwicks and JRods of the world. Ludwick used to be a very well thought of prospect until some injurys got him and he never really developed. His defense is probably a little below Juan's but I'm not sure he'd be that over-exposed. If that's the concern, him platooning with JRod would probably be better than any option by itself.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 12:38 PM EDT reply actions

Well

To the first point, I would say it doesn't matter what the teaam said they signed him for--if they truly believed him to be a core player, they'd probably be paying him more than $5M/year. If they thought that he had the potential to improve with their coaching, then that' is a problem, but to complain about this signing as the singular GM mistake of our times strikes me as a bit absurd. The move to sign him made sense inasmuch as it was meant to solidify the lineup of a playoff caliber team. He was meant to be a role player behind the big three. It's not his fault that the big three collapsed horribly during his tenure here.

To the second, point, I'll just point out that Juan's single season totals have been pretty damn reliable. He has his hot and cold streaks, but at least you know the production that he'll give you at the end of the year. That simply just isn't the case for players like Lud and Ankiel.

as far as the third point, I think this is perhaps the most legitimate complaint. Though I would add that players like Ludwick and J-Rod cost $500K apeice, so if we're going to talk about the marginal wins provided by Juan, we should probably also talk about the marginal cost of that platoon, which would be $1M less and cost two roster spots rather than one. Juan is making a paycheck, but his $5M/per just simply isn't killing this team by any measurement. Complain abut dumping Ponson's salary, complain about the Kennedy signing, complain about the Spivey signing. Those guys contributed almost nothing. Juan contributed exactly what you would have expected, yet there is more complaining directed at him, than there is at those other three guys combined.

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Very well put all-around

I've tried to make this same point about Juan. I like Ludwick, but people seem to be forgetting how disastrous the RF platoon was before Juan came up. I also like J-Rod, but as some people seem to be forgetting, he has been injured. Plus, the outfield needs RH hitting, and with Edmonds and Duncan already in place, J-Rod wouldn't help much with the problems hitting LH pitchers (while Juan has). J-Rod is battling with Skip and Ludwick for the last outfield spot with Preston Wilson and Edmonds on the DL.

The offense improved a lot right around the time Juan came back -- not totally his doing, of course, but having a .270 average and .770 OPS, while not earth-shattering, is better than the sub-replacement-level performance they were getting. $5 million for an experienced free-agent OF gets you something like Juan or Randy Winn or whoever. Deal with it, people!

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions

The Speedwagon

put it best. Roll With the Changes.

(Obligitury ridiculous REO video here)

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2007 12:38 PM EDT reply actions

Hear, hear!

Encarnacion is not the problem on this team. He still has the third highest WPA.

http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Cardinals

by Don Zero on Jul 18, 2007 12:39 PM EDT reply actions

WPA is an indicator of specific events

not talent level.

His RC/G is near the bottom of Cardinal regulars only ahead of such luminaries as Bennett, Molina and Kennedy.

The WPA he's had this year is a mirage of being clutch. His WPA/LI is .25

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, however,

A World Championship team with a losing record has bigger problems than a healthy outfielder who increases their chances of winning. Several core players, undoubtedly with greater talent and popularity, have consistently hurt the team's chances of winning, and remained unable to maintain the illusion of being clutch. Their decline and their health pose much more urgent problems.

by Don Zero on Jul 18, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

There is not

a whole lot you can do about two-thirds of MV3 coming around. We knew it would probably be sink or swim with those guys. Same goes for Kennedy. He's just plain completely underperforming his career numbers.

Encarnacion, OTOH, is doing exactly what we thought he would. It's a philosophical problem, and something that may be worthy of a rant or two (not that other players stinking it up isn't). And don't even get me started on using WPA like that.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think Juan increases

their chances of winning. Dumping him and Skip for JRod and Ludwick would be cheaper and similiar if not better overall production. Just because there are a lot of issues with the team doesn't indicate that Juan isn't part of the problem.

Predicting the total collapse of Rolen wasn't really possible. Realizing that Juan is contributing what you could get for $4 million less was.

consistently hurt the team's chances of winning
Most notably Edmonds and Rolen fall into this category but the word consistently doesn't apply because as recently as last year they were both more valuable players than Juan. There's no way to roll those salaries off or argue against those signings at the time (Edmonds extension aside). I'm not arguing that being clutch is illusory just that it has a very weak correlation to being a repeatable skillset. Juan's luck-related success this year should be noted and it doesn't validate his overall play.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions

If LI

was able to account for the final game-state instead of using the 20-year-average or whatever, it would be a lot more meaningful as an accumulated statistic. As it is, it simply cannot look into the future and is much more useful for in-game evaluation and reliever usage.

Game-changing homers happen in the first inning, but this version of WPA can't tell you that after the fact.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions

And

like you said it's also not predictive whatsoever. WPA/LI is, but that's because it's basically wOBA. (No context.)

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Needless to say,

if Ludwick (with or without Rodriguez) demonstrates that he can adequately replace Encarnacion's production, then the team should by all means make the switch, and probably will. How do you determine that he has done so? This is an honest question. I gather that he's currently ahead of Encarnacion in SLG, FRAR, RAR in right, VORP, and especially BRAA, but behind him in AVG, OBP, and BRAR. Perhaps more to the point, Ludwick would not seem to have amassed a consistent track record, whereas Encarnacion is maintaining career norms.

I'm interested in comparing Encarnacion's value to Ludwick's or another cheap player's. Like Valatan, I think, I'm just not interested in verbally attacking a man who's making the contributions that one could expect, and coming up big in more than a few games this year.

My qualified support for Encarnacion does not require me to claim that he presents absolutely no problem; to demand that someone should have foreseen the drops in production that other core players would come to endure; to refer to last year when I choose the adverb "consistently"; or to mistake WPA for a predictive measure of talent.

by Don Zero on Jul 18, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Why do I have to have a subject, SBNation?

Encarncaion has a career EqA of .258; the Cardinals signed him after he had a career high of .279 in 2004. He had a negative VOPR in 2004. At best his offensive could have been expected for 1 win over replacement level (2005 = aberrant data). His glove is good. It's rated near the top of RF in PMR and UZR. UZR had his 3 year average worth 1 win a year defensively. A 2 win RF is nothing to brag about.

It took JRod 1/3 as man ABs to match Juan's VORP from all of 2006. He matched it in 2005 & 2006. So he's around 3 wins offensively over replacement level. His defense is probably nuetral or slightly negative. It's easy to see how he could be as valuable as Juan. Ludwick has a better defensive track record but the argument for him to replacate Juan's level's is more difficult to make statistically since we have fewer ABs and no relevant defensive data. Furthermore, if the team was willing to commit to that kind of offensive output from RF, they could have done it for less than $1M. The differnce in talent is to marginal to make up the difference in salary.

None of this justifies verbal attacks against Juan or his character (and you won't ever see me making them).

By saying that "He still has the third highest WPA", you are indicating that this validates his continued playing on the team or him not being a continued problem. It doesn't. WPA, by itself, does not predict future performance, talent or much of anything. WPA & leverage does have correlative value to stats like VORP and WS and other predictive statistics. It doesn't do a lot of good to say that other players have hurt the team more if the reasons behind that are unpredictable. Recognizing that Juan was an error in judgement before the fact is what I'm trying to point out.

I suppose at this point, however, they might as well play Juan if only because no one will trade for him and we are committed to that salary. Unless the Cardinals were to have a significantly better option (I'm not sure that JRod, Ludwick or Ankiel are) than you are right in that there are other areas we can point to that need correction as well and perhaps more so.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions

And that's all that I'm really trying to say

In the context of when he was signed the team just wanted (or should have wanted) someone who was essentially guranteed to be league average and who was capable of playing center. In the context of this year, he's signed, he's on the roster, and noone is a clear upgrade

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions

yes

I agree. It still rankles though.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I still disagree with this

somewhat. For one, what you are describing is what I would call a fourth outfielder. They signed him to be, and paid him to be, a starting RF. Secondly, he's not a league-average hitter. He was like (BP's stats page is being funky, so sorry -- off the top of my head) 27th in VORP last year at 7.7.

Once again, I do agree about the level of anger, especially as it pertains to his subjective qualities as a ballplayer.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions

correction: 2004 -> 2005

career high of .279 in 2004

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks, AZ

I don't mean to continue this conversation unnecessarily, to get the last word, or to defend the wording of my initial comment. But I disagree that my reference to Encarnacion's positive WPA implies a prediction about the future. It indicates, rather, that he has hardly been among the players who have been costing this team wins this season, for predictable reasons or otherwise. It means that, while other players, with more defensible contracts, have been hurt or struggling, Encarnacion has helped the team win more than anyone other than Pujols and Duncan, even if largely by luck.

by Don Zero on Jul 18, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

If his success is (good) luck-related

why aren't his failures attributed to bad luck more often, like Reyes' failures with stranding runners or something. It seems unfair to attribute one player's successes in certain situations to mere luck (what is especially lucky about a 3-run homer in a 0-0 game?) and another one's failures in certain situations to mere luck.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

He's just

talking about his WPA numbers. Not his regular production.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

And hitting a

three-run homer is somewhat lucky. You're lucky that there were two runners on when you hit that tater. WPA is a lot like RBI in some respects actually.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions

that's the goal of stats that avoid

luck relative production like WS, RC, VORP. Those remove a large portion of the luck inherent in baseball by creating a component based offensive measuring stick rather than a results based measuring stick.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Juan Encarnacion

Did not slide into second base, a lazy mistake you would get benched for in little league. Because he was lazy, he was thrown out. Because he was thrown out, we missed an opportunity for a big inning against a young pitcher who was having problems; in part because we missed the big inning, we were shut out and their young pitcher got a win he did not deserve while Brad Thompson got a loss while putting up a rare (for our team this year) quality start.

I've long been a Juan Encarnacion supporter in the comments, for the reasons you mentioned, but at this point I can't do that anymore. We lost that game yesterday because he was lazy. I can forgive on-the-field errors; I can forgive mental errors; I can forgive losing because we aren't as good as the teams who were given top draft choices as compensation for losing during our period of dominance. But when you lose because someone didn't bother to execute a fundamental like sliding into second base, it gets really, really hard NOT to hate that person. We've made that lazy SOB a millionaire and for that we deserve a higher level of effort.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 12:41 PM EDT reply actions

Really that's the problem

with Juan. Is stuff like not sliding. He does things that would get you kicked off a softball team. I get the feeling that if he could he'd call to say that he can't make a game or two.

Juan: "Hey Tony this is Juan. How many guys you got tonight?"

TLR: "You know how it is. We should have 10."

Juan: "Well I'm in San Diego and I don't think I can make it by game time."

TLR: "Juan we are in Florida...and it's 15 Minutes until game time. What you didn't know you were going to be in San Diego an hour ago?"

Juan: "HaHa ok I'll see you next game...oh and I'll bring your $40 next time."

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Hilarious

As a guy who runs a couple of softball teams, I don't know whether I should fall out of my chair laughing or be really angry with you. I can already see one of the guys on the team calling to tell me they're in San Diego. Only excuse I haven't heard this year...

by mcg96 on Jul 18, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm about 2 hours

From San Diego and I have had that call.

I have had a guy call at 5:59 for a 6:00 game saying he couldn't make it.

And for anyone who hasn't run a softball team and would like to lose cash hand over fist just go ahead and run a softball team. You'll be out of cash in no time.

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Concur

If I paid the per person amount instead of subsidizing half the team, I could probably retire about five years early. But then again, after doing this for several years, who do I really have to blame but myself...

by mcg96 on Jul 18, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions

What?!? It couldn't be my fault

that I agree every season to run at least one team.

Keep asking the same clowns to play.

Not getting the money up front.

Then asking the same clowns "So who's coming back next season?"

You know peopel said that when my wife and I had our kid there goes the money. Not quite. Because of the kid we aren't playing on 4 team each and subsidizing half of them

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions

Still laughing

Well at least when you had a kid, you gave up a few teams you were subisidizing. When I had mine, I kept the teams that I subsidize and gave up the ones where some other poor sap had that misfortune.

Like I said before, only myself to blame...

by mcg96 on Jul 18, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Sorry if this was

covered exhaustively in the game thread (I didn't read it), but in this morning's P-D Juan is quoted as saying he thought he thought he heard a foul tip. Leading to my question: I know Florida is cavernous and underpopulated and probably quiet, but really, in any situation, is a major-leaguer relying on sound on a play like that, in any way? It's a lame excuse, and likely just a made-up-retrospectively one... but it gets me curious: what can a baserunner hear?

by jfs on Jul 18, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions

In Juan's defense

weak as that explanation is, it did look like he thought the ball was dead. You could see him glance in at the plate, like he was expecting the ump to call a foul. You're right, he still should have executed the slide, but I don't think the excuse was made up after the fact.

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 18, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Seen a dozen games...

at Pro..uh, whatever it is called now and yes, he could actually hear that foul tip. My family took in a game in 2002, and my brother and I noted that you could hear individual person's clapping.

by Brock20 on Jul 18, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions

With all due respect,

how do you know it's a lame excuse? I'm just wondering what you're basing that on.

"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 18, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I called it

lame because you keep playing as if the play is live until you have conclusive proof that it isn't live. Thinking the ball is dead is not conclusive proof.

by jfs on Jul 18, 2007 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Also,

I realize this is a rather trying season. Good. As I said earlier his season, thin the heard (sic).

It's a down year -- If you're older than seven, you've been through them before. Yeah, they're frustrating, but to say the team "makes you sick" (remedy: a bowl of Campbell's Hyperbole Noodle soup and a cold glass of Overreaction-Up) is ridiculous.

Ride the storm out, keep some assemblence of the faith.

"Just remember, the sweet is never as sweet without the sour, and I know the sour." -- Someone who writes better than I.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions

If Rolen's shoulder is really THAT bad

and Chris Carpenter is having TJ surgery, let me be the first (not really) to say:

"The season is over. There will be no parade."

To put the final nail in the coffin, watch TLR be so bold that he puts Miles at 3B, Eck at SS, Kennedy at 2B.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 12:51 PM EDT reply actions

To complete the team

So in Center and Skip in RF. With Kip on the mound.

I can't wait until game time.

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions

No no

Skip will be in LF. Duncan doesn't play against LHP.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Albert could play on his knees.

As an added bonus, he would be closer to the ground and wouldn't have as far to go when digging the throws out of the dirt.

by sweet number 5 on Jul 18, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions

well, neither does skip, to be fair

duncan's going to be eased in vs. lefties...

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

mini infield

Would that be the shortest infield in MLB history? Albert might skew it though.

by dralexp on Jul 18, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions

mini infield

bring back gregg jefferies to play first . . . then you just might have it

Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jul 18, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Hopefully JED can past his push-up test tonight

How many do you think he needs to pass? Or maybe it's his time on a 1 mile run?

So Rolen has been playing hurt, but Jimmy can't play until he passes some silly test even though Jimmy says he's ready to play. I can't take all this drama.

by OCCardsFan on Jul 18, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Also

Ludwick is a lot better than you are giving him credit for being. After going .229/.250/.257 in the first two weeks as a big leaguer since injuries ruined his 2005 season (with two balls that missed being home runs by inches), he has hit .269/.295/.574, good for an .869 OPS. If he's given a chance to play every day he'll be a .900+ guy. I'm sure of it.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 12:56 PM EDT reply actions

Why are 40 AB last year more convincing

than 100 this year. Career, he's .243/.296/.441 in the majors

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions

you're missing the point.

His first two weeks (30 AB) this season he did very poorly. Since then (113 AB) he's been our second best outfielder, almost 100 points of OPS better than Juan.

Everything in the past is either small sample sizes (40 AB's in a season, ended by a broken arm on a hit-by-pitch) or tainted by the fact that he played most of 2003 with a broken leg, which took 2 surgeries to fix. In a day and age where every big league office has 30 interns with laptops looking at numbers, that is the kind of thing that makes a guy a good pickup- he's a lot better than his numbers.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions

sorry

messed the a/b numbers a bit.

first 2 weeks, 35 a/b's, .507 OPS
last 8 weeks, 96 a/b's, .894 OPS

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Not to be Oliver Stone

Isn't it odd that Edmonds will be activated 1 month after being put on the DL without him knowing it.

I guess what I am asking is. Was Edmonds placed on super secret probation?

I am sure I am reading WAY to much into this...but the way this team has gone you never know.

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 1:09 PM EDT reply actions

he didn't want to admit he was hurt

but his numbers weren't so hot. they need him back and healthy, not just as a warm body, partly because his replacements have actually put up better numbers than he was putting up.

Edmonds OPS: .702
Schumaker OPS: .765
Taguchi OPS: .720
Luwick OPS: .791

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

My stomach is upset......

I think I will pass on tonights game. ESPN has Johan Santana going against Andrew Miller--the kid that got Mike Maroth's rotation spot. I don't know, though....this Johan fellow doesn't pitch to contact, so he probably isn't very good. Snark.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 1:22 PM EDT reply actions

I'm with you

No Rolen
No Duncan
No Edmonds

We'll get Pujols and a bunch of 2nd stringers. I may just go out tonight.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions

What a bunch of fans you are....

n/t

by saladdays on Jul 18, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Call it a silent protest against

Kip Wells.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

That's exactly what it is.......

plus, I just have certain pitchers I like to watch when they're on the TV--Oswalt, Maddux, Penny and Santana. I love the way they throw a game. Sorry if that offends.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions

And I forgot to add

Carlos Zambrano....even though he's a Cub......he would be in my dream rotation....his competiveness reminds me of Bob Gibson....

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Except that

Zambrano can't even carry Gibby's jock.

"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 18, 2007 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions

no day would be complete w/o a pitch-to-contact

remark or a few sarcastic remarks about la russa hating certain players. (for that matter, no day would be complete without me making an exasperated reply to such a remark.)

to summarize:

pitching to contact: can be good if done well.

pitching to contact sometimes and to strike batters out sometimes: also can be good if done well.

nibbling, walking batters, going to 3-2 counts against every hitter w/o striking many of them out, throwing 30-pitch first innings, hitting batters, putting the team in early deficits, throwing belt-high fastballs at 90 mph, constantly putting yourself in hitters' counts: not so good.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep, you're right.....

I can't let a day go by without commenting on those two subjects. Because it's two of the things that really bother me about this team. Sorry, it's the way I see it. But I'm leaving on vacation soon, so at least it won't be me complaining.....I'm not advocating trying to strike everyone out either, but if it happens, it ain't a bad thing.

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

FSN broadcast

the other night Al and Dan got a question during the broadcast about what pitching to contact was. The response was pretty funny since it was what you typically do not see any Cardinals pitchers doing.

by bdief on Jul 18, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Juan vs. your typical replacement level player

There have been a lot of complaints that Juan could easily be replaced by just about any outfielder that we have in our system in AA or AAA (and half of the warm bodies available on the open market). The truth of the matter is that Brekky is quite average, with plenty of hitting/baserunning/fielding gaffes to make us forget the quality day-to-day production and the occassional gems he offers. And we knew that going in and he has performed almost exactly as expected.

What was important about his signing was the expectation that we had for him and what we could reasonably expect from all of the other options. You could safely predict that Encarnacion had a 70% chance of meeting his career averages, 20% of doing worse, and 10% of doing better. As for everybody else collectively, you're probably looking at 30% of matching his production, 10% doing better, 30% of doing worse ... and 30% of doing absolutely nothing. (These numbers were obtained scientifically by removing them, one at a time, from my own ass.)

I had talked about this before (WARNING: weird analogy alert!). Or using another reference, say you have to get your wife a nice present for your big anniversary. You have four major options:

Spend the money on something that you know she'll like
Buy something cheaper in the hope that she'll like it just as much (or that she doesn't notice the difference)
Take 1/3 of the money that you would have spent on the gift & gamble it away, hoping to win enough to get her the same or better present (if you lose on your gambles, you still end up spending the same amount of money, on top of your losses)
Don't get her anything, knowing that the love you share is more important than some insignificant bauble (don't try this at home, folks - we're professional bullshitters here, dabbling in conjecture)

The Cardinals were trying to get a certain level of production (league-average) and they found someone on the free agent market (Brekky) who could provide that. They didn't want to go cheap (at least in this case - don't get me started about Junior Spivey) and they didn't want to depend on a host of castoffs and farmhands to get the job done. And to do that, you have to spend a finite amount of money. To compare that against the salary of a "longshot" player like Ryan Ludwick or an enigma like Rick Ankiel is leaving out a large portion of the system.

To get a nice painting, you can either go to a real gallery & shell out the cash, or you can go to the "Art By The Pound" store and hope to get something useful. The Cardinals took the safe route and purchased the Garfunkel. (Now if we can just get them to pony up and submit the winning bid on a Rembrandt.)

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 18, 2007 1:24 PM EDT reply actions

Encarnacion

is not an average RF offensively. He may be a league-average hitter, but the fact that he plays a corner spot means that we are paying him $15M for a below average player.

Who cares if we knew that would be the case? That sounds even worse to me.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 1:45 PM EDT reply actions

I would have to disagree

Using MLB's definition of who is considered an OF, of those with 175 or more PA, Juan's OPS is #51 of 102 outfielders. His batting average is 56th among the same group.

If you take the total ML numbers and average them over 600 AB's, you get .265/.329/.416, with 33 doubles, 17 HR, 82 runs, and 78 RBI.
If you take Brekky's numbers and extrapolate them to 600 AB's, you get .267/.308/.460, with 42 doubles, 23 HR, 100 runs, and 93 RBI.

As much as he annoys us, as much as we know that he basically has no upside, he is an average rightfielder. What we were paying for when we signed him was not his production, but the "guarantee" of that production. We had no such certainty from any of our other options.

Do I think he is a worthwhile member of this baseball team? Yes.
Do I think the team would be better off using his payroll dollars for other needs next year (and this year)? Absolutely.
Do I think we have a lot better organizational depth in the outfield right now than we did two years ago, that would allow us to part ways with him? Yes.
Do I think it was a good, safe choice to sign him, given our payroll flexibility and options in Memphis? A shaky yes, but a yes nonetheless.
Would I have liked to have seen the Cardinals take a real chance at using the lower-priced players we had already instead of inking him to a contract? Sure.
Of the young guys that we had then, how many have actually accomplished anything significant? One, Chris Duncan.
How many spots did we need to fill? Two.

We needed someone like Juan and we got him and he performed as advertised. That he wasn't Larry Walker (and not the one we had, but the one who won MVP several years prior) is not his fault. That he was portrayed by the front office as an absolutely vital piece of the team is not his fault either. Let's just hope that, after we get rid of him, we can bring in some replacement who's averaged 40+ HR and 140+ RBI over 162 games in his minor league career as an outfielder. But then again, that's just a hope.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 18, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions

STL - Juan = CHI - Jacque

All the complaining about Enc sounds alot like Cub fans bitching about Jacque Jones, which is kind of funny since they play the same positions & are kind-of the same player.
Both deals were roundly critizied by web folks at the time, even though both players have performed almost exactly as you would have expected them to.
Do you think some of this is "follow the herd", like when critics pan a movie, it's hard to tell someone you thought it was ok?
Know what I mean?
Boomer.

by glamboomer on Jul 18, 2007 2:07 PM EDT reply actions

Yeah, Cubs fans were upset

that Selig wouldn't let them give him away and pay 90% of his salary.......J.J. and Juan look in the mirror and see each other.

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions

I said this in the

post above yours, but the fact that he's performing exactly as expected is why people whined then, and they they are whining now. That's exactly the problem.

I don't think he's a jerk and I don't have a problem with the way he plays the game, but I don't like the fact that he's out there (or really, that he's making so much money to be out there).

I'm sure there's some herd mentality, but there are legitimate reasons to not like the move. All you can do is hope that he beats his projections, but at this point he's a known entity.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Fair enough

I just think the whining about him has reached a critical mass of ridiculousness. He's not an all-star, but he's not the worst player on the team. He holds his own playing everyday, and there are a bunch of players on the team who are causing much larger problems. Why all the complaining about him?

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I totally agree

with you about the vitriol, which I tried to convey a little in my post.

I said this upthread, but sink or swim MV3 guys, or Kennedy seriously underperforming his career numbers is a problem, but also something you can't do much about. We all knew that was the way it would be.

Having a below average RF could have been avoided. Or at least paying him a gazillion smackers. It's a philosophical issue, just like pitching to contact or reclamation projects. Veteran lust or whatever. I know you understand all this, you write for this blog for chrissakes.

He also glides around the outfield, and doesn't look like he cares. So there's a two edge sword of sabermetric-types and people who put stock in body language going against him.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah.....I'm to the point where I don't

even know what I'm reading, hearing or seeing. I need a drink.....sorry if I'm being redundant...

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions

No you aren't

I was apologizing because I was being redundant. Just reiterating my stance.

Some of us have already cracked a beer, by the way. It is after 12 O'clock after all.

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions

YAY! Beer!

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Um, Juan can

throw the ball more than 10'.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions

also...

jacque jones hit 27 HR last year and had an OPS in the mid-.800s, above his career average. that's even harder to complain about than juan's numbers.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Lazy

That is really one word to describe Juan, and he continues to show it over and over again. It is not just in the field either, it is at the plate and on the bases. I really think that is the BIG reason most Card fans can't stand him...he just does not hustle period!

by Cardsgem on Jul 18, 2007 2:25 PM EDT reply actions

laziness is a loaded word

with a lot of potential cultural overtones and risks. It raises questions in my mind of there possibly (underlined possibly) being more at play in people's hatred of Juan--maybe some kind of cultural clash about how a person should carry himself or look, etc. To say you don't like how he hustles on the field is one thing. But hustling at the plate when he's batting? Is it that you don't like how he stands? He's taking good hard swings. He gets more hits than many on our team. I'm not saying this is what's going on here. But these kinds of words being applied to him and to no one else on the team makes me uncomfortable.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions

don't even go there

J-Rod and Yadi don't get accused of not hustling. I can't remember Reggie Sanders or Preston Wilson ever being accused of not hustling. I don't think any of us care where Juan is from, what color he is, etc. We care that he gets within a few feet of catching an awful lot of balls in the outfield that fall in for hits, and we care that he doesn't slide into second, and we care that he swings and misses at an awful lot of really bad pitches.

And we care that TLR continues to play him regularly despite the fact that he is obviously not the best man for the job. And that isn't Juan's fault, but he is going to get resented for it regardless and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions

It seems like there is always an unofficial

whipping boy, though.

It used to be Tino Martinez (which was actually much more justified, given his salary, position, and performance), before that, it was J.D. Drew, and before that, it was Ray Lankford. The criticism has always been way beyond the actual problems with the players' level of play, and it's always been baffling compared to the enthusiasm for players like, say, Bo Hart of Joe McEwing.

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Indeed.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Preston Wilson is the best example

the guy was terrible this year. However, he stuck it out and played with a microfracture in his leg until they knew they would be getting Juan back. Even with a 'broken' leg, the guy had what...7 infield singles?

He was never cheated coming out of the box.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions

But people hated HIM too...

And were all over him every time he did anything wrong, at least on this board.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions

preston wilson

I don't think he was hated. In fact, he was probably given more credit that was his due based on his performance, since we talked about him as being a veteran influence in the clubhouse etc.

We criticized him when he swung at bad pitches, and were mad at TLR for starting him game after game when it was obvious that his ceiling was a .600 OPS and we had 3 guys in AAA (ludwick, JRod and ankiel) with 1.000+ OPS. The fact that he was black did not matter in the least.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions

There was lots of criticism of Wilson on this site

and it also went overboard. I've always liked him and wanted him to be signed so i was surprised by the level of antagonism directed at him this year.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

the best comparison

I forgot about Hector Luna, but he was a favorite here and he was born in the DR just like Juan, and is just as black. He always hustled, and though I gave him crap for being fat it's because he was fat, not because he was black or latin american.

Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 18, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

BTW, speaking of

Luna, my brother (who lives in Lancaster, PA) told me yesterday that Hector is now playing for the Lancaster Barnstormers of the Independent League. Yikes! And to think that some of us (me included) were arguing for him to have the 2B job in STL just last summer!

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 18, 2007 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not suggesting racism

but possibly (and I underlined possibly) a clash between cultural expectations about how the guy moves and looks. That can have to do with where he grew up, the family he came from, etc. Latin Amercican culture is very diverse--it's not monolithic. It was not a comment about skin color.

A difference in cultural expectations could just as easily be applied to people from the NE and the SE in the United states (even if they are both white and from the same class and are similarly educated). When I visit the south, I have to keep in check certain reactions I have because I think people tend to talk and move more slowly than in NY. You can draw the wrong conclusions about someone's work ethic based on behavior patterns that are simply different (especially if what they do seems "slow" or overly laid back).

I was throwing it out as something to think about, although I thought it might be taken the wrong way by some. I do think it's important that we be careful about tossing about "character" vices like laziness, especially when it's only applied to one person on the team, and one who is not playing that badly compared to the others.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I forgot to repeat that I think

it's a valid complaint if someone doesn't hustle in the field or when running bases. But when you generalize to laziness as a character flaw and when this becomes a part of a hateful (and repeated) rant attached to one particular person on the team and not to others who also fail at plays, then I think that's a problem.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Valatan makes a good point today

but no one is really addressing the irrational hatred Juan receives compared to other players. There are lots of questionable comments about him like I don't like the look in his eye, I don't like the way he walks or runs (trots), he's lazy when he doesn't steal or stretch a double from a single and he's stupid when he does do those things and gets thrown out, etc., etc.

I'm not defending his not sliding last night--he shouldn't have expected to be out. But Pujols also shouldn't have expected to be out when he didn't run for first base after the dropped line drive. I haven't heard extended rants about his "laziness" last night. Pujols also has hit into a mind-boggling number of double plays this year and Duncan has a crazy strikeout rate. Does anyone attack their character for these failures?

When Juan's successful steal the night before basically won us the game, it was barely acknowledged or acknowledged and then coupled with some failure. His plays have been central to a number of our wins.

One thing that should be acknowledged is that our offense started to get off the ground at the beginning of the year only after Juan's return. He did seem to add a spark to the team.

Is he a great outfielder? Obviously no. Does he deserve hateful veiled references directed at his character? No.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 2:36 PM EDT reply actions

It doesn't matter

The fact is that the guy will be making $6 mil next season when we could be getting the same production for $500 K from J-Rod.

It doesn't matter that he's playing up to expectations, because he's too expensive for "league average expectations." There's no point of spending a good bit of money for league average. If we want league average, we should stick to our young guys so that we can save our money to buy big bats or big arms that can be an x-factor when we need it.

By getting rid of our expensive league average players like JEnc and Looper we open up space to add one dynamic player.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 18, 2007 2:46 PM EDT reply actions

Eliminating those guys

adds $9M to the roster. In this market, that is somewhere between half and two thirds of what you need to actually sign an impact player, not even factoring in the number of years that you'd have to sign an impact player for. Anyway, that's basically been the team's philosophy, and the problem is that our current impact players aren't producing. There is no way to get around that. If Rolen, Carpenter, Pujols and Edmonds were performing anywhere near their career norms, this team would be five games ahead right now. But they're not, and the team therefore is in third place.

by Valatan on Jul 18, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions

no, you'd get more -

first, I said "guys like JEnc and Looper." This including Edmonds when his contract runs out, and Eckstein as well (assuming we don't sign him for a mega-multi-year deal). Sorry, I wasn't more clear on that, but those two were just examples.

Secondly, I believe that Looper is actually making $5.5 mil next year. That's $11.5 mil total simply by trading those two away at the deadline. As a simple example, that would be very close to enough to sign Fukodome or a player comparable to him.

I know what you mean about that last statement, though, but I can't help but think that another impact player to add to that list would be big insurance in case this happens again next year. Basically, when more than half of our impact players are injury prone, we're getting into murky waters.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 18, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions

You can't say we'd get the same from J-Rod

because he's never done it over any consistent lengthy stretch of time! You can speculate, but you just don't know. AND J-Rod is lefthanded and INJURED. And he's hardly much younger than Juan.

Sigh.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions

He has 300 MLB ABs

and his minor league track record is good. He's done it for a long time, he's just not stuck anywhere for various reasons.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions

but those are 300 platoon at-bats

and 300 is still a lot less than 2000 or so. i like J-Rod, but I don't see him as being in competition with Juan because the team needs a RH outfield bat w/ Duncan and Edmonds already penciled in.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

if anything

players tend to not do as well when platooning because of the lack of consistency. It's kinda like throwing a guy around in the batting order.

I think if we just let him play, he'd probably put up similar, if not even better numbers. His best hitting seemed to come during his injury call ups when he was playing every day. Also, 300 at bats is no small sample size, and when it comes at a significantly cheaper number, it's not a bad deal at all.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 18, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

he's injured

and he's LH.

by willievinceterry on Jul 18, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

He actually has

a .900 OPS against lefties (20% of at-bats). Not that I think that's his true talent level or anything.

He outhits Juan; Juan outplays him in the outfield. The simple fact is that platoon partners like Ludwick or even So I guess (Mather, Stavinoha, Jon Jay, whoever) are a dime-a-dozen. Todd Linden and Craig Wilson would have been available this year too.

Juan costs you 15 million and 3 years of penciled-in opportunity cost over those cheap or free options. J-Rod's career OPS+ is 17 pts higher than Juan's and he out-VORP'd him in like half the at-bats last year (or less, I don't feel like looking this stuff up right now).

by plh903 on Jul 18, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions

I'll be honest

I hate it when baseball players don't hustle.

I don't like the occasional non-hustle play Albert does. But, I think to myself "well, 40 home runs, .300 average, 120 rbis. Also, unfortunately, MILLIONS"

Juan does it more often. But he doesn't have the performance to offset it. Should he? No, if he did we'd pay him more.

So, really, to me, it doesn't matter what we pay him or how good/bad he is. I just wanna see the hustle.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2007 2:57 PM EDT reply actions

Re: hustle

Let he who has never cut the occasional corner at work cast the first moan...

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jul 18, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

no one

puts rally caps on to watch me cut corners at my job.

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jul 18, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions

If I made $3,000 a day

at work, I'd have less of an excuse for not putting a coversheet on my TPS report.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions

I still have a copy

of the memo about the cover sheets on those TPS reports.

If you want I can foward a copy to you.

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

If you could do that

That would be great..........

by Hammondsbird on Jul 18, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions

And you might be willing to come in on Saturdays

by OCCardsFan on Jul 18, 2007 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

were's my stapler

hahaha... nice job bring office space into a cardinals blog

"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 18, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

If anyone is looking for the cordless drill,

it has been packed for my company's immediate departure into cube land.

Needless to say, there have been LOTS of Office Space references around our place in the last few weeks. In fact, we're going to see if we can pass it off as a training film on the days when our stuff has moved to the new building, but we haven't.

by cardsgirlinAR on Jul 18, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions

That's a dumb statement

Why?

I cut corners at work. Or surf this site.

I'd point out, however, that I'm a hustle guy on the volleyball court. And I expect everyone else to hustle, too.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2007 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

hustle

Toward the end of Carlton Fisk's career, I remember him screaming at Deion Sanders because Sanders didn't run out a routine play. Sanders was Fisk's OPPONENT, not his teammate, and what Fisk was upset about was disrespect for the game.

Juan (and others) deserve to be called out for lackadaisical effort, and those who play the game hard (from little league to the women's softball world cup to J-Rod) deserve a little more credit.

by madridbend on Jul 18, 2007 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions

We hate Juan

Because we have to do something to take our minds off the fact that in a few hours, or even a few minutes we are going to be told that one of the best pitcher in baseball and our best pitcher will be gone for possible ever. This on the same day that our 3B might finally have the test we all knew he would have that would tell us that not only is he not the player he used to be but he may never be again. All of this takes place in the nightmare that is this season.

Much like society in general...the things that we are fired up most about aren't the things that scare us most...but we are all to afraid to say what everyone knows.

So we pick on Juan. Because we feel he represents what we fear. That this team will be paid too much to provide too little and that we may not be able to free ourselves of the sins our our past.

Should we hate Juan this much? No. Is it his fault? No. Do we have anything else to do? Not really...but as long as we all know it then I guess it's ok.

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

Couldn't agree more

This organization has much bigger problems right now than Juan Encarnacion -- and I suspect all the ranting and anguish expressed on the site today reflects that. Who are the cornerstone players on this team -- the guys with the big contracts who are in turn supposed to provide big performance? Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Carp, Mulder, Izzy.

Two are pitchers facing career-threatening injuries. Two more are showing steep declines in production and playing time, b/c their age and their all-out style of play (for which they've earned praise in the past) have now caught up to them. Even the mighty Pujols is performing below his previous lofty standards.

We can talk all day long about Encarnacion -- but he is not the real problem.

by DCRedbird on Jul 18, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions

UNIBROW

i'm gonna say this again... unibrows just stem hatred and juan has a bad one. seriously think about it. when was the last time you saw someone with a unibrow and didnt immediatly hate him?? If he wants people to get off his back then maybe he should go out and buy some tweezers!!

"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 18, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

What about Bert?

Of Bert and Ernie. I don't hate him.

by Don Zero on Jul 18, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions

does bert count as "someone"

its up for more debate but if he does then i admit that there is one exception

"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 18, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks!!!

I never noticed that before...now that's all I'll be able to look.

"Hey did you see the triple play?"

"No I was to busy looking at all the hair between Juan's eyes."

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions

It's not just the eyebrows

his forehead has this freakish ridge on it.

I don't mean that as a put down or some weird critique of Juan, but I was looking at it last night and if freaks me out almost as much as Polanco's weird 'sides of his head'.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Lineup

Eckstein, SS
Taguchi, CF
Pujols, 1B
Encarnacion, RF
Ludwick, LF
Molina, C
Miles, 2B
Ryan, 3B
Wells, P

by Carps on Jul 18, 2007 4:30 PM EDT reply actions

Are we trying to simulate a game

of all replacement level hitters -- I miss walker, rolen, pujols, edmonds circa 2004.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I still remember

Watching the game when they said that they were getting word about a trade and that on the Rockies broadcast Walker was out of the game and saying goodbye to his teammates.

It was like Christmas eve that lasted about a month and a half.

And when Christmas came all I got was sweaters.

It was a fun time. The other pitchers looked like they wanted to give up. Like "This isn't fair!"

by Harknights on Jul 18, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions

it's not fair for me to expect 2004 every year

but it's hard to get behind and "root" for this lineup. I still remember where I was when I heard about that trade in 2004 -- one of those moments that's stuck with me for several years for some reason, which is surprising given my memory is s--t.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions

argh

Player OPS
Tony Womack .734
Larry Walker .953
Albert Pujols 1.072
Scott Rolen 1.007
Jim Edmonds 1.061
Edgar Renteria .728
Reggie Sanders .797
Mike Matheny .640
Doesn't Matter who cares

le sigh ....

by jeff abs on Jul 18, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Stop it!

I can't handle thinking about that and thinking about Kip Wells starting tonight. I need a drink.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

they are ridiculous stats

Tell me if my thinking is wrong here ... but you have 4 guys in a row that average 1 base per at bat. That would mean that a typical run through that stretch of the lineup would score AT LEAST one run, right?

by jeff abs on Jul 18, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Le Sigh

Le Pant, Le Rowr-Rowr! Pepe LePeu is my favorite Looney Tunes character.

"You know, sometimes I ask myself, 'Pepe, is it worth it?' And I answer myself, "Yes, YESSS, it is worth it! Viva l'amour!"

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 18, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions

My French teachers would kill me

*Vive l'amour

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 18, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I still remember

I was in the ballpark that day, when the announcement was placed on the scoreboard that Walker had been acquired. It was a slow build for a long sustained cheer as people figured out what was going on, but everyone was very happy that day.

by dralexp on Jul 18, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions

I was there too

One of the beer guys told me they had acquired him and about a half hour later they made the announcement.

by Carps on Jul 18, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions

That's an ugly, ugly lineup

We only have 4 everyday players in there and only 2 of them will be here next year. Yikes.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions

wells vs willis with this lineup?

could be a laugher

by jeff abs on Jul 18, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Dan from FSN says

that this sparkling lineup is not taking batting practice.

Why bother, I guess?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow, but isn't it a really cheap lineup...

Probably under 30 million for that lineup right? That has to be one of the lowest paid lineups the Cards have run out there in a while. At least we are not overpaying for the inevitable loss.

by OCCardsFan on Jul 18, 2007 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Is there a doctor in the house?

This is a serious question about Carpenter. There's rumors floating around that he might need Tommy John surgery. Now how does the diagnosis go from bone chips or bone spurs to arthritis to I guess torn ligament. Isn't that what Tommy John surgery repairs? Are elbow problems difficult to diagnos? Did he possibly get a new injury during re-hab? I'm really puzzled by this. And this time I'm not knocking anyone in the Cardinals organization, I just would really like to know IF this was the problem all along how could they miss it?

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 5:39 PM EDT reply actions

Will Carrol from BaseballProspectus brought

up something on Bernie M's show. When AJ Burnett had his arm troubles earlier in his career, he went to Dr. James Andrews who told him "I'm not going to remove that bonespur because it is actually protecting the ligament" in the elbow.

Perhaps, removing the spurs exposed the ligament, which has caused the problems.

Carrol says from everything he has heard from his sources, the fact that Carpenter saw 3 doctors and Paletta was the final one he saw, the situation is extremely dire and to expect the worst.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions

When you say dire situation, do you mean

gulp, like career ending? I know lots of pitchers come back from Tommy John, but yikes, Chris is not that young anymore, and if he has an arthritic condition on top of it.......this sounds like some scary stuff.

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't know about career ending

but Carp is 32 years old right now. If he has TJ surgery, the youngest he'll be getting back on a mound for the St. Louis Cardinals is 34 years old.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh, you are breaking my heart.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions

My husband's a doctor and he doesn't see how

they could have missed it unless he injured it after the procedure. But he's not an orthopedist so take that with a grain of salt. You would think they would have checked everything out carefully--with MRI's and when they were removing the bone spurs. Usually doctors take the opportunity during surgery (even if using microscopic tools) to look all around for other problems that may not have been picked up on x-rays or mri's.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

From Bernie

Text message from D. Goold in FLA, with additional reporting by Joe Strauss ... and we'll have much more online later at STLtoday.com:

by Carps on Jul 18, 2007 5:42 PM EDT reply actions

hey, is the st. louis brown's championship

in 1886 counted as one of the 10 championships?

by ortic jones on Jul 18, 2007 5:44 PM EDT reply actions

No

It isn't.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 18, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Injury insurance...?

Does anyone know what sort of insurance teams usually have on their high $$ players? I vaguely remember an insurance-related issue with Bagwell a couple years ago, where whether or not Houston could recover any of his salary for the year (from the insurance company, not him) depended on if/how much he played in spring training.

Taking Carp's example, it looks quite possible that he's done for this year, and maybe 2008 as well. Do the Cards have an insurance policy on him? Can we recover anything if he only pitches one regular season game this year? Can we recover anything if he doesn't pitch at all next year?

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 18, 2007 6:06 PM EDT reply actions

They have his elbow fully insured

so we should be OK in terms of money--I believe that came from Strauss in his discussion today.

by nycardfan on Jul 18, 2007 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks for the info nycardsfan.

I just put up a diary with this question (I should have started it there, since this thread is getting old and got bumped down by a game thread). If any one has any general comments or info about how this sort of insurance works I'd be interested to see them there (or here...).

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 18, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

for the record, and i know i'm late to this party

but i have never, and will never HATE any one who wears the Birds on the Bat. i pick on Juan so much because I believe he never should have been signed in the first place. i feel it was a panic late winter move by Walt. he hoped he was getting more out of Juan, and instead he got a player who is barely above replacement level. the fact still remains is he never should have been signed. they had better and cheeper options in the orgination, yet for whatever reason they went with Juan.

i know i'm on Juan a lot, and i feel that Val was calling me out today along with a few others. i'll do my best to bite my tongue in the future when getting on Juan for his bad play.

that being said, with the news today that Carp could be out with TJ, and Rolen FINALLY admitted he's still hurt. Juan is the least of our problems right now. this horriable season just took another turn for the worse. only thing left to happen to the Cards now is Albert blowing out a knee or his hammy. this bad season is just unreal. unfreakin real.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 18, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions