how to play for next year, part I
for the 2d time in 4 days, a cardinal farm team was no-hit --- this time short-season A batavia. a perfect game, no less. the previous no-hitter, you'll recall, wasn't technically a no-hitter --- after 14 hitless innings in a scoreless tie, the GCL cardinals ended up getting a few hits and winning the game 1-0 in the 17th.
nice win yesterday, but in spite of it i've finally decided to face facts: i think the cardinals are through for 2007. i'm hardly the first person to reach this conclusion; many of you got here weeks (or even months) ago. i've been holding out hope for a late-season rally, but my wishful thinking was predicated largely on carpenter's return to the rotation for the final 2 months. that won't be happening now, and as a result i can no longer convince myself that a resurgence --- a longshot even with carp back in the rotation --- is a realistic possibility. the cards have never have been all that far off the pace, and even now a single red-hot homestand could vault them back to within striking distance. but without carpenter, i just don't believe they can close the deal. in a best-case scenario (and i wouldn't bet on it happening), carp might get back onto a major-league mound for the last month ---- but if that happens, how well can he be expected to pitch?
i'm like any fan ---- i always hope for the best. it's what we fans are really good at. but it will take more than hope for the cardinals to get out of the decline that has gripped them for the last full calendar year (october excepted). it will take smart decisions by the front office. with the trade deadline looming, the cardinals have to be ready to seize any opportunity that presents itself to start restructuring this team. the discussion is already underway in this diary; i'm gonna add to it over the next couple of days. today i'll focus on position players only; i'll look at the pitchers tomorrow.
before i dive into this, a disclaimer: this is not a "blow up the team" discussion. admittedly, the notion of blowing it all up might lower the collective blood pressure of greater st louis --- dump this bum and that bum and that piece of crap, they all SUCK!!! --- but that's useless talk. the cardinals aren't going to go this route, and they'd be stupid to. it's not constructive; ya gotta look for solutions. as i wrote in the comment thread yesterday, the process has to begin with a discussion of what type of players the cardinals need to add, not which disappointments they should punish with a pink slip. that means taking stock of the organization's assets (current and future), identifying the holes, and then evaluating which ones can be filled from within the system and which ones will have to be filled from without. regarding the latter, the question then becomes: who's available via free agency or trade to fill those holes --- and can be acquired at a reasonable cost in money and/or talent.
we might as well begin this exercise with more bad news: the cardinals have left themselves very little room to maneuver. 11 players on the current roster are owed a total of $69 million in guaranteed money next season:
| pujols | $13m |
| carpenter | $10.5m |
| rolen | $10m |
| edmonds | $8m |
| encarnacion | $6.5m |
| mulder | $6.5m |
| looper | $5.5m |
| kennedy | $3.5m |
| spiezio | $2.3m |
| franklin | $2.3m |
| flores | $1m |
these figures do not include deferred money, which the club counts (illogically) as current-year payroll --- that boosts the above figure by $5m (albert has $3m deferred from next year's salary, rolen $2m). so by the team's lights, $74m of next year's payroll is already committed; if the cardinals exercise their $8m option on isringhausen (likely), that pushes the total to $82m, and the hefty raises that will be owed to three arb-eligible players (molina, maroth, and miles) push the total to nearly $90m. by the time you add in the salaries of pre-arb returnees like wainwright and duncan, next year's payroll is almost entirely spoken for --- before the cards have signed a single free agent or added a single impact player via trade. let me put this in roster-matrix form:
2008 ROSTER MATRIX
DEADLINE DUMP SPECIAL
| STARTING 8 | BENCH | ROTATION | PEN |
|---|---|---|---|
| molina c $1m |
schumaker of $400K |
carpenter rhp $10.5m |
is'hausen rhp $8m |
| pujols 1b $16m |
spiezio ut $2.3m |
mulder lhp $6.5m |
franklin rhp $2.3m |
| kennedy 2b $3.5m |
taguchi of $1m |
looper rhp $5.5m |
flores lhp $1m |
| rolen 3b $12m |
ryan if $400K |
maroth lhp $5m |
johnson lhp $400K |
| miles ss $1.5m |
VACANT c --- |
wainwright rhp $450K |
thompson rhp $600k |
| duncan lf $500K |
ankiel of memphis |
reyes rhp memphis |
kinney rhp $400k |
| edmonds cf $8m |
ludwick of memphis |
hawksworth rhp memphis |
cate lhp $400k |
| en'cion rf $6.5m |
hoffpauir if memphis |
garcia rhp memphis |
cavazos rhp memphis |
| --- --- |
j-rod of memphis |
boggs rhp memphis |
worrell rhp memphis |
| TOTAL $49.0m |
TOTAL $4.5m |
TOTAL $28.5m |
TOTAL $13.1m |
| OVERALL | PAYROLL: | $94.5 |
very obviously, they need to get rid of some payroll; either that, or raise the ceiling into the $110m range or so. they can make some easy trims by nontendering some of their arb-eligible players (maroth and miles come quickly to mind) and/or by declining isringhausen's $8m option. (they also hold a $1.1m option on taguchi, which they probably will exercise if he continues to swing the bat well.) i doubt they're gonna cut izzy, and miles will always have a place here as long as mr la russa is the manager; maroth is the most likely of the three to get dumped. aside from that, clearing payroll won't be easy. the cardinals are pretty much stuck with their two overpriced ex-sluggers, edmonds and rolen, who both have negative value on the trade market; the cardinals would have to give up large amounts of cash and/or some good talent to get rid of either contract. and even if the cards could move one of them, the organization doesn't have replacements who can step in and play 3b or cf next year (unless you think ankiel is ready, which i don't).
there probably is a trade market for encarnacion, albeit a weak one, and probably a better one for isringhausen --- but the cards might need to strike quickly to exploit it. there also is said to be interest in anthony reyes, who is the type of player (ie young and cheap) who the cardinals probably should not be trading --- but under the circumstances, i think they'd be well advised to convert him into some other form of talent. the only other guy who they might realistically move is braden looper, but i kinda doubt the market for him is all that great either; the innings are catching up to him, witness his recent trip to the disabled list and his record since may 1 (3 wins, 6 losses, 6.21 era). if they're lucky they might be able to get a platoon player or class A prospect for him, and that might be worth it, just for payroll savings. . . . .
but wait ---- as i said above, this is the wrong way to begin the discussion. while it's true that the cardinals will have to move some payroll off the books, the focus still needs to be on the talent coming in, not the talent going out. so --- again, looking only at the position-player side --- these are the organization's biggest needs, according to me:
- youth.
2008 assets: albert pujols (28 years old in 2008), chris duncan (27), yadi molina (25) on the big-league roster; rick ankiel (28), skip schumaker (28), brendan ryan (26), nick stavinoha (26), jarrett hoffpaiur (25), and joe mather (25) at triple A.
beyond 2008: colby rasmus (21), bryan anderson (21), mark shorey (23), cody haerther (24), john jay (23), mark hamilton (23).
players under the age of 30 have taken only a third of the the cardinals' non-pitcher at-bats this season, and a big chunk of that total has come from replacement-type players (ryan ludwick, skip schumaker, brendan ryan) whose major-league future, if any, probably lies in utility duty; they're not likely solutions to the cardinals' lineup problems. the crop of position-player prospects currently at triple A --- ankiel, ryan, stavinoha, mather, and hoffpauir --- might produce one big-league regular, if the cardinals are lucky; the double A crop is far more promising, but it's not likely to help in 2008. moreover, the best prospects are outfielders and first basemen; the cardinals need to get younger all over the diamond. the cardinals already have youth at first base, behind the plate, and at one outfield position, and rasmus will probably be ready by 2009 (maybe sooner) to add youth in center. a youngish middle infielder would really help. - speed.
2008 assets: none to speak of, really. the only players who could be described as fast are schumaker, taguchi, and ryan; ankiel reportedly runs pretty well when he's healthy, and both rolen and pujols are excellent baserunners despite a lack of great footspeed.
beyond 2008: rasmus, jay, daryl jones.
old and slow usually go together; kind of like beans and cornbread (or like dumb and dumber). the cardinals are dead last in the big leagues in stolen bases this season, and dead last in triples; nothing more to say about that. - on-base ability.
2008 assets: pujols (.412 obp this year), duncan (.385), spiezio (.364), and rolen (.341 in an off year) on the big-league roster; john rodriguez (.378 career big-league obp) and hoffpaiur (.360something career minor-league obp) at triple A.
beyond 2008: rasmus (.359 current-year obp), anderson (.372).
the cards rank 15th in the league in walks and 7th in on-base percentage. they never have been an extremely patient hitting team --- even in their offensive heyday they never ranked higher than 5th in the league in walks --- but they haven't finished this low in obp since 1999, when they ranked 10th in the league in scoring. one of their key on-base players, edmonds, can't stay on the field, and another (rolen) appears to be in decline. the cardinals' leadoff hitters have a collective .309 on-base percentage this year, which is 14th in the nl (houston and washington are worse). while the cardinals' farm system is definitely improving, plate discipline remains in alarmingly short supply throughout the ranks; the cardinals need to address that in their future drafts, and/or they need to work with their minor-league hitters to be more patient. - middle infielders.
2008 assets: kennedy, miles, ryan, hoffpaiur.
beyond 2008: tyler greene, the former #1 who's currently playing ss at double A, probably won't stay at short. the cardinals drafted two shortstops in the first 10 rounds of this year's draft, pete kozma and oliver marmol; the latter won't be ready for 3 years at the earliest (assuming he signs), and marmol is off to a slow start in short-season A (.173 average, although he does have some speed and a good batting eye).
so --- to wrap this up --- if the cardinals can swing one trade at the deadline to start restructuring this team, the ideal acquisition would be a 20something shortstop who can bat leadoff, draw a walk, and steal a base. somebody like rafael furcal, in whom the cards showed no interest when he was a free agent 2 off-seasons ago . . . . .
anybody know of such a player who might be available from a contending team that needs jason isringhausen for the stretch run? or maybe one on a rebuilding team that could find a place for a young starting pitcher like reyes? the comments are open.
i'll look at the pitching side of things tomorrow.
0 recs |
150 comments
Comments
Aside from the under 30 part
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good lord that would be awesome
by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only name that I thought of right away
What contenders (besides the Tigers who may be shored up just by Zumaya coming back to back up Jones) need closer types?
by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the braves do
by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus Merchan
by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't look like a prospect to me
his career minor league stats: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Jesus-Merchan.shtml
maybe he's a late bloomer, but it seems at least as likely that he's just having an aberrantly good half-season.
keep the suggestions coming, though. i never heard of this guy before; at least he's now on my radar.
by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Braves fans
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/07/braves-want-imp.html
by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought of the D-Backs
(Of course, too many good bullpen arms is never a bad thing.)
Braves and Indians would both be good fits for Izzy, if'n he allows himself to be dealt.
by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i only included the dbacks
by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Braves have
I'm not sure that any of them translate necessarily into a leadoff hitter, but I don't feel that we can be so choosy as to turn down a solid young SS b/c he projects as a #2 or #7 hitter rather than a leadoff hitter.
I'm sure Schuerholz would be interested in Reyes for the future and might be interested in Looper for the stretch run.
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
first glance, off-the-cuff
2B; turns 24 next month; .309/.392/.434.
by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they would not
by PGeorge on Jul 16, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure that
SS should be our #1 concern, beginning today.
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why not next year?
by SleepyCA on Jul 16, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Shortstop Conundrum
The Angels and the Diamondbacks are the only two other franchises I can think of that seem to have real surpluses at middle infield spots. The Angels obviously don't need a closer. I don't really know that much about what the DBacks are trying to do currently. I know they're contending, but their payroll situation, what they need to add, all that stuff is a mystery to me. I don't like the Diamondbacks enough to really pay attention to them, other than what Baseball America and the other publications have to say about their prospects.
by the red baron on Jul 16, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The D-backs
by nybirdfan on Jul 16, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quinten
by RAholt on Jul 16, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love to get Quentin
by liam on Jul 16, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it would take
by nybirdfan on Jul 16, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UUM, No. Don't they have the most
by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 10:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I'll play
by mikedallas23 on Jul 16, 2007 10:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
cleveland
i guess jhonny peralta is probably too much, though.
by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: cleveland
by lindqja on Jul 16, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is my band wagon
by Hammondsbird on Jul 16, 2007 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The move I'd make right now is...
by Ignatius J Reilly on Jul 16, 2007 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
....except a few runs
by sdrone on Jul 16, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that Walker
by cardsrul on Jul 16, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, even if they're out of reach,
by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hanley
by mikedallas23 on Jul 16, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trouble is,
by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could we trade one of our players for
by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tulowitzki
by TurdFerguson on Jul 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My family went to a game in Tulsa
by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slightly off topic (Izzy wouldn't be in trade)
He's having a down year this year, which could mean he'd be ripe for the picking.
Still arbitration eligible as well I believe.
by KoryWiu14 on Jul 16, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but he's terrible defensively
by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was moved to 2B
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Julio Lugo
However, If the Red Sox make a run at Arod the Cards could find that Lugo would be a solution at SS. Orlando Cabrera could also shake loose via trade.
by Born in 82 on Jul 16, 2007 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
would definitely take cabrera
by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lboros' analysis above
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team could/should contend
This team will need a closer for next year.
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I had your
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We DON'T need Izzy
All things being equal, everybody would love to have a K-Rod. But many, many teams have succeeded by just giving the ball to the best arm in their bullpen.
And we're not talking about this resurgent '07 Izzy here, we're talking about the '08 model. Maybe he'll be just as good next year, but as he'll be turning 36 during next season, I think we'd be very wise to trade him now if we can recoup some value from this late career surge.
I'm not arguing Izzy isn't a valuable player - he is. That's why he makes a good trading chip right now.
by bgodar on Jul 16, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember Ricky Bottallico?
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember Jason Isringhausen?
I guess my point is that I don't see Troy Percival, Ryan Franklin and eventually maybe Chris Perez as being SO MUCH WORSE than Isringhausen '08 that it wouldn't be worth exploring a trade.
We have several players right now who are better than Bottallico or Veres. Saying "we can afford to trade our closer" isn't the same thing as saying "we can afford to have a lousy bullpen."
by bgodar on Jul 16, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera could shake loose
He wouldn't solve the youth problem, but he would give us 1 more year to find the SS. It's important to remember that other teams are always trying to get younger as well, so Cabrera may be the one the Angels look to trade.
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arroyo is a trade possibility for this year
It's being reported that Contreras may also be available.
It's always fun to bet on the future but I'm still focused on supporting the current team. I don't care if they win the division but I'd like to see them play well and get back to enjoying the game--like they clearly did last night. It was great to see them laughing together again in the dugout. THEY look like they feel as though they still have a chance and they are fighting hard so I'm staying with them. Plus, because of the adversity they've faced with JH's death and all the injuries this year, I think they deserve extra support even if its betting against the odds.
The offense may be catching fire. Wainwright certainly proved himself again as a worthy starter, even a potential ace. Thompson and Looper can be solid ground ball pitchers. TLR and Dunc both think Wellemeyer has enormous physicial and mental talents that could be refined. We obviously need another pitcher (at least). And for all the love Reyes has been shown on this site, I think his four seamer would have been batted out of the park repeatedly and he would have been chased from the game like our first two starters were. Unless he can figure out location, movement, or increase his velocity, I don't think he's an option (regardless of his relationship with Duncan).
So maybe we still have some options from the outside to pick up one or two more pitchers before the deadline and just try to do as well as we can.
by nycardfan on Jul 16, 2007 10:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chin Lung Hu
Who manages this team? Pop Warner? Seems he is being groomed for the job. Kind of like Eric Wedge when he took over in Cleveland.
www.whiteyball.com
by whiteyball on Jul 16, 2007 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't the Braves have too many shortstops?
Yunel Escobar
Pete Orr
Brent Lillibridge
I imagine that Escobar's out of the question; and that Orr's older than we want.
by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
a year ago
by erik on Jul 16, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Erik
by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lillibridge
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Boston...
I believe Izzy has a no trade clause in his contract though or he automatically gets no trade because of the 10/5 clause. If the club is serious about trading him, first step is find out where he would want to go. I think he would be fine with Boston. He is in the sundown of his career and Boston is in good shape to be serious contenders for the next 3 or 4 years, whereas the Cards are probably going to be doing rebuilding in those years.
If Boston wanted more (which they could), I have also read they would like to move Coco Crisp. If we threw Reyes in (which I would only do if we got something back), we could get that and help with the speed issue. He's still young and fairly cheap (07:$3.5M, 08:$4.75M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$8M club option ($0.5M buyout).
by WiscCard on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they want to move Papelbon anymore
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boston....
Lugo, that's an interesting one. The fans are calling for Alex Gonzalez to get starts. However, I have to wonder if Theo will give up so quickly on Lugo, who he's been universally raked over the coals for acquiring. Lugo's been absolutely dreadful this year, both hitting and in the field.
Side note, going to the Red Sox vs. Royals game tonight at Fenway Pahk. Currently arbitrating a dispute between my mom, who wants to root for the Royals because of Mid-West loyalty and my wife who just might put a size six tennis shoe up her ass if she does.
Thanks, Larry, by the way for the link back. I honestly cannot think of any team on the short list of buyers for bullpen help that has a MAJOR league ready SS to fit the bill.
You're out in Colorado though. What would take to get Barmes? He's had a horrible year and Tulo has cemented his position. Why not take a flier on Barmes and see if he can reproduce the pre-deer meat numbers?
by Brock20 on Jul 16, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
nothing more relaxing than refereeing fights
barmes is worth bringing into the discussion, but i'm not a fan. his pre-deer-meat stats were just a fluke, i think --- he was never as good as all that, just got hot at the right time. sort of like bo hart with more power. his career minor-league OPS is only .752, and he doesn't draw walks --- this year only 17 in ~350 plate appearances. he's no longer even that young --- turned 28 this spring.
i'd just as soon have ryan out there. at least he's got superior skills in one aspect of the game (defense), and he's 3 yrs younger than barmes.
by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Alex Gonzalez...
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the speculation on '08 and beyond
by lefty fan on Jul 16, 2007 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is true. If LaDunc is coming back it will
by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buster Olney
by cardsrul on Jul 16, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it will take them getting TLR and Walt...
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There you go!
What do you think we could get for Tony?
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we could be like the D-Rays...
Sigh. Nothing against younger players, and the team does need to get younger, but it's worth remembering that TLR and Duncan have been way more successful doing it the way they have than most of the teams that are constantly playing for the future but never getting there. (Ok, the Tigers are one example of a team that went through a hard stage of being young and bad, but that team was way farther away from being good than the current one is.)
For all their faults, TLR, Duncan, and Jocketty are still among the best in the business and, with all due respect, they know more about baseball and winning than any of us. When things go bad, as they have recently, it helps to at least try to remember all the success they've brought the team this decade and try to think about how many teams could claim the same success. Any replacement you bring in is bound to have their own faults.
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one here is doubting their
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sooner or later your argument runs out of gas
by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand the sentiment
Equivocations about 2006 aside, they were not a strong team last year except for playoffs.
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. A team as bad as
The WS win will give me happy memories forever. I'm a little frustrated with TLR right now, but I'm not ANGRY with him, or with any other part of the organization, because of what happened in October. But, I look at this team and I see a squad that needs tearing down and rebuilding.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt the current leadership
by lefty fan on Jul 16, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They still got a hometown discount with Carpenter
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rolen and Kennedy
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds took a discount
In essence, for the next 2 years, Edmonds signed a 2-year, $16 M contract.
Based on his performance, he is overpaid. But so is Barry Bonds. I don't think the Cardinals thought Edmonds would spend as much time as he has on the DL.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
number crunchin'
On to the savings...
Per Cot's, Maroth is set to make $2.95MM (instead of 5MM).
Taguchi (1MM) becomes Schumaker (400K).
Encarnacion ($6.5MM) becomes Ankiel by hisself (500K) or Ludwick (Stavinoha is raking lefties, iirc) platoon.
Izzy becomes Chris Perez (350K) and/or Troy Percival ($3MM). I think this is likely since the rest of the Anaheim gang will all be intact for another year. Having Perez tutored by Percival would be a luxury and yet still 50% cheaper than one Izzy. And it would take a lot of pressure off of Perez.
Total savings: 10.7MM-13.7MM (with the difference between those two numbers being Percival).
That doesn't include Looper or--ahem--Rolen.
by meat on Jul 16, 2007 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Izzy is more than likely going to stay
You are right about Reyes, he has to break camp with the big league club or be put on waivers (something he WON'T clear).
That means, we have 6 starting pitchers. Carpenter, Mulder, Maroth, Reyes can't go to the bullpen. Wainwright is an #2 in the making. That means Looper is the odd man out. He could be put back in the bullpen if they chose to do that.
All of that means Thompson (my personal favorite) is forced to go back to the pen.
Juan has to go. Not because of the disdain many fans in St. Louis have for him or anything like that. It's just that there are much cheaper options (Ludwick, Ankiel, Skip) for CF so that Edmonds can move over.
I wouldn't doubt if the only players the Cardinals don't bring back are Encarnacion, Eckstein, Wells, Wellemeyer and Springer.
Bennett has a club option in 2008 for $.9M. No way they let him walk with so little money owed.
Interesting about Bennett, I just saw this on Cot's contracts:
Gary Bennett c
1 year/$0.9M (2007)
sent outright to AAA 6/28/07
They must have confused him with Stinnett.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re maroth's salary
by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OF next year
Duncan and Edmonds are givens.
a RH bat that starts in right (Enc or an upgrade)
then if you figure the bench fills out with Ludwick and Ankiel, which would give you 2 bats with serious pop off the bench, there's no room for either Skip or So.
I could see them keeping So around, but I just don't see Skip having any future as a light-hitting LH outfield bat, when we have lots of good-hitting LH outfield bats on the way. I think that Ankiel as a 4th outfielder does Skip's job in the field and hits a whole lot more.
by CardFaninVA on Jul 16, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
5 OF's
Then you've got Schu, Spiezio, and the non-starting RF (Ludwick usually) providing depth. That's not bad, and it saves over $5MM. Not to mention that the defense you get from Ankiel, Ludwick, Schumaker should be exceptional.
No So, please.
by meat on Jul 16, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ideas
by Tim Dierkes on Jul 16, 2007 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would like to see the Cards make a hard push for
I proposed C Dunc for Aybar or we could try Reyes for Aybar. I know that C Dunc has been the only offensive power other than Albert, but I think looking at our club for next year as LBoros has presented, SS is the only place where we can upgrade. And left field can probably filled by Ankiel, Stav, or if possible someone like Hunter or Adam Dunn. Then the Angels would use Dunc as a 1b or DH.
by OCCardsFan on Jul 16, 2007 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yikes
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Dunn is basically...
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the exception that Dunn is a much
by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly Dunn is the same player
by OCCardsFan on Jul 16, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But who's to say Aybar...
by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aybar
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
percival anyone???
by all in the cards on Jul 16, 2007 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Andy Marte
by BluesDrummer85 on Jul 16, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kelly Johnson
by VanRam on Jul 16, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Trading Izzy
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would explain the Percival signing
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just let Ryan play
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not opposed to a
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad I'm not alone in that thinking...
He's young, he can hit, he can draw a walk, and the kid likes to run. Granted he's made a few errors since being called up, but it's his first year, and he's probably over-anxious and excited.
I wouldn't mind seeing him as the everyday SS next year at all.
by SmashedAtoms on Jul 16, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm doubling up here,...
Pay Percival 3MM to close next year and tutor Chris Perez to take over in 2009. Hell, pay Percival ~4MM and you still get two closers for the price of Izzy, '09 version. Takes pressure off of Perez, too. And if the team's out of it next summer, then maybe you could even move Percival for something of value. This seems like a GM's dream scenario here.
It starts with trading Izzy.
by meat on Jul 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is a blockbuster
by WizardofOz on Jul 16, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
rolens not moving
by all in the cards on Jul 16, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rolen
by WizardofOz on Jul 16, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add this to your doubts
by enoscountry on Jul 16, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this trade idea
by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So,
by CardFaninVA on Jul 16, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still like this deal
by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't it make more sense to try and trade
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think...
by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brad Thompson isn't the young pitcher to trade
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Thompson but
Despite all of Reyes' downfalls this year, this is wrong. Thompson does not have a higher ceiling than Reyes despite his recent success. He is more versatile and doing well right now but when you are talking pure upside, I can't imagine how Thompson with his middling stuff gets ranked above Reyes.
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes' ceiling is definitely higher
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes ceiling is higher
I would certainly hope Reyes would bring more in a trade, but I hope we don't have to find out.
by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson is a proven success
by nycardfan on Jul 16, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when you are talking ceiling
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the majors, Reyes still has a limited
Perhaps most striking, his surprise and perplexity about the importance of pregame preparation and pitch location--which he expressed in recent interviews--makes me question whether he has the strategic sensibility to put his gifts to work. He's got minor league stats, but what's he thinking about before and during his games? Compare that to Wainwright's extensive preparation for his games with video analysis and his focus on not only the importance of his pitch locations but also the need to constantly change those patterns to keep opponents off balance. That is what helped him to win last night. I still think Reyes, in those same circumstances and with his pitches, would have been blown off the field with the Phillies power.
Thompson has shown a lot of mental toughness and concern for pitch location and patterns. He may become a groundball machine--we don't yet know what his future holds. All we can go on is what pitchers do when they get on the actual field. Thompson indisputably has the better record at the major league level than Reyes.
As far as the Wells comparison. It simply points to the fact that promise and even success with obvious gifts in one venue is absolutely no guarantee in another venue.
by nycardfan on Jul 16, 2007 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are taking Reyes out of his career
It does sound like Reyes was a little immature regarding his starts but trying to say that lowers his ceiling is simply not how prospects are evaluated. Elijah Dukes has 43 children from like 54 different mothers but that doesn't lower his ceiling or upside as far as his baseball skillset is concerned. It does affect the evaluation of whether he will translate those tools into results but the upside is still there.
This discussion of mental toughness that you bring up is largely a moot point because neither you nor I have any clue what's going on in these pitcher's heads when they are actually throwing the ball. Conjecture on our part has no substantive value.
As far as the wells comparison, it's totally out of context with Reyes. There aren't any parallels to be drawn.
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if a guy has an absurd strand rate
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
check out his splits
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
strand rates
You offer your own counter arguments. To assume it's a mental issue when there are equally valid sample size arguments or arguments about his mechanics from the stretch totally undercuts the mental aspect of it.
The reason it's not substantive is because it's total conjecture; there's no unique qualifer that points to "lack of mental toughness" as opposed to statistically proven LOB% averages or visible changes in mechanics. We can't hear Reyes' thoughts on the mound. It's the evidential equivalent of me saying unicorns steal my socks because I can't find them. I didn't see the unicorns but my socks are lost. There are other reasons but the unicorn fits my preconceived notions of the situation so it must be unicorns. (I'm not saying that to be snarky; I'm trying to use hyperbole to offer a case in point type of argument.)
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not just the strand rate
And the metaphor isn't valid because we know that Reyes has thoughts and has some sort of mental makeup. it's ridiculous to equate someone attributing his struggles to mental makeup to someone else attributing phenomena to leprechauns or whatever.
To be snarky, what you're saying is the logical equivalent of saying 'we don't know his thoughts, he could be a robot designed to throw four seam fastballs, and hence, has no thoughts." I don't see the logic in going into some sort of Cartesian skepticism about whether or not Reyes has a positive or negative mental makeup.
Just because we can't prove that his problems are due to mental makeup doesn't mean that it isn't a pretty valid possible explanation for his struggles. It is possible, but unlikely, that it is some sort of statistical fluke. It is also possible that it is some sort of mechanical problem related to pitching out of the stretch, though no one offers any evidence for this, either. In fact, given his statements about game preparation and video watching, there is in fact more evidence that his problems may be mental.
by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes I don't want to use the subject line
Do you expect him to come out and say, "Well statistically I'm still waiting for my luck to regress to the mean." There were plenty of times that he said at the beginning of the year that he said he pitched well and things just didn't go his way. I don't think knee-jerk post-game comments made to the media offer us a lot of valid insight. And I really don't know why you think it's unlikely it's a fluke. We're talking about 65 innings with a strand rate of 58%. His strand rate last year in 86 innings was 76%. That says anamoly to me.
I make no claim to him being robotic. As third party observers we should probably pick the choice that we have the evidence to support. Research shows that LOB% has some ranges that are considered the "norm" and that Reyes is outside of those. I'd rather rely on that evidence than anecdotal remarks about his mental preparedness made to the newspapers. Maybe he gets rattled but I'm not willing to draw that conclusion from 65 innings this year.
Is mental makeup a plausible explanation? Yes. Is it the one most supported by the verifiable evidence we have? Not in my opinion.
LB has shown pitch charts relating to his pitch selection. His mph is down from every report that we had heard prior to this year (which could easily be a mechanical issue). His minor league track record is impeccable. I think he's suffering from bad luck and some growing pains in the majors. I don't think that he's too intimidated/scared/weak to make a good pitch with runners on base -- that seems like a reach to me.
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I stated below
Reyes may never reach his full potential, but he does have more potential than Thompson. Thompson may get more out of what he has, though.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean to say that
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about eating
Don't know the real numbers...
Rolen 10 mil Cabrerra(ex) 450k (due raise)
Cardinals trade rolen for cabrerra eat salary
Cardinals pay 10.45mil
Rolen off books -10mil
Cabrerra due raise +10mil
Cardinals pay 10mil and get younger
by OKCardsfan on Jul 16, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We won't get Miguel Cabrera
He'll be 300 lbs by the time he reaches FA.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and why would
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A bridge
by OKCardsfan on Jul 16, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He made
He threw home when he had no chance (no force, but the guy was there anyway) at the plate instead of taking an easy out at first.
It was so bad their pitching coach or manager (I don't remember which) came out to chew him out under the pretense of talking to the pitcher. I don't think I've seen that done before.
by whopperman on Jul 16, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not sure i understand...
by DJ87 on Jul 16, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all u can eat buffet
by all in the cards on Jul 16, 2007 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That REALLY would have to mean the end of
by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2009
by BigJawnMize on Jul 16, 2007 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok ideas
- Looper to the Braves. Maybe for Brent Lillibridge. Could be adding another Greene.
- Maroth and Springer to the Dodgers. Maybe for Betemit. (Corner the market on guys like Greene)
- En'cion to the Twins (when they fail to get anyone else and take the cheap route.) Maybe for Chris Parmelee.
- Somehow make either Miles or Speiz go away we can not be spending $4M next year for a Medium and a Large size backup.
by Harknights on Jul 16, 2007 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Shedding Izzy, Looper, and Juan
I also think that we should listen if anyone is interested in Looper. What he gives us could be found for cheaper (either as an average reliever or a slightly below-average starter). Perhaps we could acquire some A or AA arms.
I think that we should try to get rid of JuanE for whatever we can and play a cheaper platoon in RF that could probably produce a .290 BA/.310 OBP/ 20 HR.
Without those three, we could save a fair amount of money.
Question: If TLR and Jocketty are back, don't you think they will attempt to bring back Eck?
by bgh on Jul 16, 2007 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Adam Jones
Izzy, Chris Perez, Scott Rolen
for:
Beltre, Jones
Jones was a SS up until last year and was not moved for defensive reasons - he was moved b/c there is no way he could out defense Seattle's current SS.
Any takers?
Everyone presumably saw my diary on the Angels current 3B prospect - the truth is I just don't know how we could pry him away...
As for Arod - It would make alot of sense to trade for him this year if you were willing to take a McGwire/Rolen type of gamble that he would become enamored with the city of STL. What would it take? Number one the Yanks out (which probably wouldn't happen until August) then Arod agreeing (again probably wouldn't happen) then:
Colby Rasmus and Chris Perez..
Yikes!
by Lawless on Jul 16, 2007 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jones is untouchable
by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree but...
by Lawless on Jul 16, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sense of duty
Does that necessarily make him a greedy player? Not really - he just needs to maximize the opportunities for the rest of the union. If it was up to him, would he take less money to play for a good team in a forgiving town? Who knows.
It'd be nice if he would take a lifetime contract with the Cardinals for $16M per year, with an opt out / declining skills clause for the team if he should get injured along the way. But none of that is ever going to happen. He needs to pressure the club owners to get the largest deal possible.
by Solanus on Jul 16, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
J.J. Putz
by ColinMacLeod on Jul 16, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Jones
Izzy, Chris Perez, Scott Rolen
for:
Beltre, Jones
Jones was a SS up until last year and was not moved for defensive reasons - he was moved b/c there is no way he could out defense Seattle's current SS.
Any takers?
Everyone presumably saw my diary on the Angels current 3B prospect - the truth is I just don't know how we could pry him away...
As for Arod - It would make alot of sense to trade for him this year if you were willing to take a McGwire/Rolen type of gamble that he would become enamored with the city of STL. What would it take? Number one the Yanks out (which probably wouldn't happen until August) then Arod agreeing (again probably wouldn't happen) then:
Colby Rasmus and Chris Perez..
Yikes!
by Lawless on Jul 16, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ben Sheets to the 15-day DL
Also, if Franklin is moved to the rotation, he gets performance clauses that bump up his contract in 08 and 09.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What about Ben Zobrist?
by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus he's the cousin
He's from Eureka, Il, iirc. I wonder if he's a Sox, Cubs, or Cards fan?
by Alxfritz on Jul 17, 2007 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was the boss...
- Izzy has got to go. The idea that we need an $8m closer is preposterous. He is a great pitcher, but for a team that has little wiggle room, one of the only values has to be moved.
- Reyes has got to go. Every start that he pitches in Memphis is a waste, both for him and the team. It's pretty obvious that he is not going to get a fair shake from the current regime, so deal him while he still retains value.
- If Juan can be moved, he should. I'd put him in the same category as Iz: not a terrible player or value, but he's got value and so he probably needs to go.
SS-
Asdrubal Cabrera - Good call, lindqja. Great fielder, switch hitter, bat starting to light up, blocked by Peralta, Indians need relief help.
Ben Zobrist - Former TB starter, switch hitter struggled at the beginning of the year. Very good fielder, currently hitting .262/.382/.422 with 7 SB in AAA. Since TB has 2 hot shot SS on the way, Zobrist could come cheap.
Here are my trades:
Izzy plus cash to Cleveland for Asdrubal Cabrera
AND
Reyes and PTBNL to TB for Zobrist and Dukes
AND
Juan Enc to anyone for a young, toolsy prospect in low A.
If one of them doesn't pan out, no biggie. If they both end up solid, one of them could move over to 2B. Clear out Juan, and that's $13 off the books, a couple of young SS to work with, and if you want athletic and young, Elijah Dukes is your man. I've got to believe he's available and the TB would move him for a young, ready starter like Reyes.
SD
by sdangler on Jul 16, 2007 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ah
SD
by sdangler on Jul 16, 2007 5:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Shortstop 2008 - Carlos Guillen
Nonetheless, removal of salary (Izzy...wait, don't the Tigers need a reliever?) by the end of the season could make this a possibility. I imagine a guy like Guillen could command at least $10-12 million a year.
by lightbulb on Jul 16, 2007 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tigers already have done everything
by 26thMan on Jul 16, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs



















