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Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

how to play for next year, part I

for the 2d time in 4 days, a cardinal farm team was no-hit --- this time short-season A batavia. a perfect game, no less. the previous no-hitter, you'll recall, wasn't technically a no-hitter --- after 14 hitless innings in a scoreless tie, the GCL cardinals ended up getting a few hits and winning the game 1-0 in the 17th.

nice win yesterday, but in spite of it i've finally decided to face facts: i think the cardinals are through for 2007. i'm hardly the first person to reach this conclusion; many of you got here weeks (or even months) ago. i've been holding out hope for a late-season rally, but my wishful thinking was predicated largely on carpenter's return to the rotation for the final 2 months. that won't be happening now, and as a result i can no longer convince myself that a resurgence --- a longshot even with carp back in the rotation --- is a realistic possibility. the cards have never have been all that far off the pace, and even now a single red-hot homestand could vault them back to within striking distance. but without carpenter, i just don't believe they can close the deal. in a best-case scenario (and i wouldn't bet on it happening), carp might get back onto a major-league mound for the last month ---- but if that happens, how well can he be expected to pitch?

i'm like any fan ---- i always hope for the best. it's what we fans are really good at. but it will take more than hope for the cardinals to get out of the decline that has gripped them for the last full calendar year (october excepted). it will take smart decisions by the front office. with the trade deadline looming, the cardinals have to be ready to seize any opportunity that presents itself to start restructuring this team. the discussion is already underway in this diary; i'm gonna add to it over the next couple of days. today i'll focus on position players only; i'll look at the pitchers tomorrow.

before i dive into this, a disclaimer: this is not a "blow up the team" discussion. admittedly, the notion of blowing it all up might lower the collective blood pressure of greater st louis --- dump this bum and that bum and that piece of crap, they all SUCK!!! --- but that's useless talk. the cardinals aren't going to go this route, and they'd be stupid to. it's not constructive; ya gotta look for solutions. as i wrote in the comment thread yesterday, the process has to begin with a discussion of what type of players the cardinals need to add, not which disappointments they should punish with a pink slip. that means taking stock of the organization's assets (current and future), identifying the holes, and then evaluating which ones can be filled from within the system and which ones will have to be filled from without. regarding the latter, the question then becomes: who's available via free agency or trade to fill those holes --- and can be acquired at a reasonable cost in money and/or talent.

we might as well begin this exercise with more bad news: the cardinals have left themselves very little room to maneuver. 11 players on the current roster are owed a total of $69 million in guaranteed money next season:

pujols $13m
carpenter $10.5m
rolen $10m
edmonds $8m
encarnacion $6.5m
mulder $6.5m
looper $5.5m
kennedy $3.5m
spiezio $2.3m
franklin $2.3m
flores $1m

these figures do not include deferred money, which the club counts (illogically) as current-year payroll --- that boosts the above figure by $5m (albert has $3m deferred from next year's salary, rolen $2m). so by the team's lights, $74m of next year's payroll is already committed; if the cardinals exercise their $8m option on isringhausen (likely), that pushes the total to $82m, and the hefty raises that will be owed to three arb-eligible players (molina, maroth, and miles) push the total to nearly $90m. by the time you add in the salaries of pre-arb returnees like wainwright and duncan, next year's payroll is almost entirely spoken for --- before the cards have signed a single free agent or added a single impact player via trade. let me put this in roster-matrix form:

2008 ROSTER MATRIX
DEADLINE DUMP SPECIAL

STARTING 8 BENCH ROTATION PEN
molina c
$1m
schumaker of
$400K
carpenter rhp
$10.5m
is'hausen rhp
$8m
pujols 1b
$16m
spiezio ut
$2.3m
mulder lhp
$6.5m
franklin rhp
$2.3m
kennedy 2b
$3.5m
taguchi of
$1m
looper rhp
$5.5m
flores lhp
$1m
rolen 3b
$12m
ryan if
$400K
maroth lhp
$5m
johnson lhp
$400K
miles ss
$1.5m
VACANT c
---
wainwright rhp
$450K
thompson rhp
$600k
duncan lf
$500K
ankiel of
memphis
reyes rhp
memphis
kinney rhp
$400k
edmonds cf
$8m
ludwick of
memphis
hawksworth rhp
memphis
cate lhp
$400k
en'cion rf
$6.5m
hoffpauir if
memphis
garcia rhp
memphis
cavazos rhp
memphis
---
---
j-rod of
memphis
boggs rhp
memphis
worrell rhp
memphis
TOTAL
$49.0m
TOTAL
$4.5m
TOTAL
$28.5m
TOTAL
$13.1m
OVERALL PAYROLL: $94.5

very obviously, they need to get rid of some payroll; either that, or raise the ceiling into the $110m range or so. they can make some easy trims by nontendering some of their arb-eligible players (maroth and miles come quickly to mind) and/or by declining isringhausen's $8m option. (they also hold a $1.1m option on taguchi, which they probably will exercise if he continues to swing the bat well.) i doubt they're gonna cut izzy, and miles will always have a place here as long as mr la russa is the manager; maroth is the most likely of the three to get dumped. aside from that, clearing payroll won't be easy. the cardinals are pretty much stuck with their two overpriced ex-sluggers, edmonds and rolen, who both have negative value on the trade market; the cardinals would have to give up large amounts of cash and/or some good talent to get rid of either contract. and even if the cards could move one of them, the organization doesn't have replacements who can step in and play 3b or cf next year (unless you think ankiel is ready, which i don't).

there probably is a trade market for encarnacion, albeit a weak one, and probably a better one for isringhausen --- but the cards might need to strike quickly to exploit it. there also is said to be interest in anthony reyes, who is the type of player (ie young and cheap) who the cardinals probably should not be trading --- but under the circumstances, i think they'd be well advised to convert him into some other form of talent. the only other guy who they might realistically move is braden looper, but i kinda doubt the market for him is all that great either; the innings are catching up to him, witness his recent trip to the disabled list and his record since may 1 (3 wins, 6 losses, 6.21 era). if they're lucky they might be able to get a platoon player or class A prospect for him, and that might be worth it, just for payroll savings. . . . .

but wait ---- as i said above, this is the wrong way to begin the discussion. while it's true that the cardinals will have to move some payroll off the books, the focus still needs to be on the talent coming in, not the talent going out. so --- again, looking only at the position-player side --- these are the organization's biggest needs, according to me:

  1. youth.
    2008 assets: albert pujols (28 years old in 2008), chris duncan (27), yadi molina (25) on the big-league roster; rick ankiel (28), skip schumaker (28), brendan ryan (26), nick stavinoha (26), jarrett hoffpaiur (25), and joe mather (25) at triple A.
    beyond 2008: colby rasmus (21), bryan anderson (21), mark shorey (23), cody haerther (24), john jay (23), mark hamilton (23).
    players under the age of 30 have taken only a third of the the cardinals' non-pitcher at-bats this season, and a big chunk of that total has come from replacement-type players (ryan ludwick, skip schumaker, brendan ryan) whose major-league future, if any, probably lies in utility duty; they're not likely solutions to the cardinals' lineup problems. the crop of position-player prospects currently at triple A --- ankiel, ryan, stavinoha, mather, and hoffpauir --- might produce one big-league regular, if the cardinals are lucky; the double A crop is far more promising, but it's not likely to help in 2008. moreover, the best prospects are outfielders and first basemen; the cardinals need to get younger all over the diamond. the cardinals already have youth at first base, behind the plate, and at one outfield position, and rasmus will probably be ready by 2009 (maybe sooner) to add youth in center. a youngish middle infielder would really help.
  2. speed.
    2008 assets: none to speak of, really. the only players who could be described as fast are schumaker, taguchi, and ryan; ankiel reportedly runs pretty well when he's healthy, and both rolen and pujols are excellent baserunners despite a lack of great footspeed.
    beyond 2008: rasmus, jay, daryl jones.
    old and slow usually go together; kind of like beans and cornbread (or like dumb and dumber). the cardinals are dead last in the big leagues in stolen bases this season, and dead last in triples; nothing more to say about that.
  3. on-base ability.
    2008 assets: pujols (.412 obp this year), duncan (.385), spiezio (.364), and rolen (.341 in an off year) on the big-league roster; john rodriguez (.378 career big-league obp) and hoffpaiur (.360something career minor-league obp) at triple A.
    beyond 2008: rasmus (.359 current-year obp), anderson (.372).
    the cards rank 15th in the league in walks and 7th in on-base percentage. they never have been an extremely patient hitting team --- even in their offensive heyday they never ranked higher than 5th in the league in walks --- but they haven't finished this low in obp since 1999, when they ranked 10th in the league in scoring. one of their key on-base players, edmonds, can't stay on the field, and another (rolen) appears to be in decline. the cardinals' leadoff hitters have a collective .309 on-base percentage this year, which is 14th in the nl (houston and washington are worse). while the cardinals' farm system is definitely improving, plate discipline remains in alarmingly short supply throughout the ranks; the cardinals need to address that in their future drafts, and/or they need to work with their minor-league hitters to be more patient.
  4. middle infielders.
    2008 assets: kennedy, miles, ryan, hoffpaiur.
    beyond 2008: tyler greene, the former #1 who's currently playing ss at double A, probably won't stay at short. the cardinals drafted two shortstops in the first 10 rounds of this year's draft, pete kozma and oliver marmol; the latter won't be ready for 3 years at the earliest (assuming he signs), and marmol is off to a slow start in short-season A (.173 average, although he does have some speed and a good batting eye).
there are other weaknesses at the big-league level, no doubt --- extra-base power being one, outfield defense being another. but the cards have both of those bases covered within the organization, imho. there's ample power within the organization, beginning with pujols and duncan on the big league roster; the cards' triple A and high A teams both feature league-leading home-run hitters, and their double A and low-A teams used to have league leaders before those players were promoted to the next level. as for outfield defense, schumaker is a solid (if not spectacular) defender, ludwick is very good, ankiel and rasmus are both said to be above average. they'll need plus defenders in center and right to compensate for duncan, but that objective would seem to lie within reach.

so --- to wrap this up --- if the cardinals can swing one trade at the deadline to start restructuring this team, the ideal acquisition would be a 20something shortstop who can bat leadoff, draw a walk, and steal a base. somebody like rafael furcal, in whom the cards showed no interest when he was a free agent 2 off-seasons ago . . . . .

anybody know of such a player who might be available from a contending team that needs jason isringhausen for the stretch run? or maybe one on a rebuilding team that could find a place for a young starting pitcher like reyes? the comments are open.

i'll look at the pitching side of things tomorrow.

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Aside from the under 30 part
it sounds like you're describing A-Rod.  If only we could dump Enc from the roster five times...

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 9:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

good lord that would be awesome
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only name that I thought of right away
was "NEIFI!" Luckily he got busted for steroids.

What contenders (besides the Tigers who may be shored up just by Zumaya coming back to back up Jones) need closer types?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the braves do
the phillies, if'n they're still in the race; the dbacks; the tigers; the indians. those would seem to be the 5 prime candidates.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus Merchan
Can someone with an eye on the minors explain whether the Phils' Merchan is worth considering?

by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

doesn't look like a prospect to me
it took him 6 years to get out of class A; he had a breakout year this year at double A but he is extremely old for that league (26 --- as old as chris duncan) and repeating the level. last year he had a .676 ops at that level, as a 25-year-old.

his career minor league stats: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Jesus-Merchan.shtml

maybe he's a late bloomer, but it seems at least as likely that he's just having an aberrantly good half-season.

keep the suggestions coming, though. i never heard of this guy before; at least he's now on my radar.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought of the D-Backs
but aren't they happy w/ Valverde?

(Of course, too many good bullpen arms is never a bad thing.)

Braves and Indians would both be good fits for Izzy, if'n he allows himself to be dealt.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i only included the dbacks
because they're supposed to be hot n heavy after octavio dotel. maybe they just want to beef up the back end of the pen, or maybe they don't trust valverde.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the Braves have
3 young SS's -- Yunel Escobar, Brent Lillibridge, and Elvis Andrus -- and they're all blocked for next year anyway by one Edgar Renteria.  Lillibridge is having a down year at AA, though I think he was recently moved to AAA.  

I'm not sure that any of them translate necessarily into a leadoff hitter, but I don't feel that we can be so choosy as to turn down a solid young SS b/c he projects as a #2 or #7 hitter rather than a leadoff hitter.

I'm sure Schuerholz would be interested in Reyes for the future and might be interested in Looper for the stretch run.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

first glance, off-the-cuff
you think boston would give dustin pedroia for izzy?

2B; turns 24 next month; .309/.392/.434.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

they would not
give up pedroia for izzy, they already have papelbon as closer, and that japanese set up man, and another good right hander who is young in the bullpen.  

by PGeorge on Jul 16, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that
Hoffpauir can't be the 2B we'll need, not next year but we'll still have Kennedy and Miles next year.  Maybe the year after.

SS should be our #1 concern, beginning today.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why not next year?
The guy is 24; he's not getting any younger, and if he keeps hitting in AAA I see no reason not to give him a shot at the job.
Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 16, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Shortstop Conundrum
I look around the league, and there aren't too very many options of the sort you describe that present themselves.  The only real guy like that that I see currently is Brent Lillibridge, in the Braves organisation.  I haven't looked at his numbers or anything, but I know he's supremely athletic, the Braves have a need for a back end reliever; the Cards might have to pick up some salary to make the deal palatable for the payroll conscious Braves.  

The Angels and the Diamondbacks are the only two other franchises I can think of that seem to have real surpluses at middle infield spots.  The Angels obviously don't need a closer.  I don't really know that much about what the DBacks are trying to do currently.  I know they're contending, but their payroll situation, what they need to add, all that stuff is a mystery to me.  I don't like the Diamondbacks enough to really pay attention to them, other than what Baseball America and the other publications have to say about their prospects.  

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 16, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The D-backs
are not getting much in the way of production from their young outfielders. Maybe an inexpensive vet could help pull the outfield together. The pitching seams pretty solid. So maybe JuanE could fetch one of there infield prospects.

by nybirdfan on Jul 16, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quinten
Carlos Quinten just got sent down.  Wouldn't he look good in a Cardinal uniform?

by RAholt on Jul 16, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love to get Quentin
His home/road split this season is bizarre.

by liam on Jul 16, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it would take
Some one like Reyes to get Quentin. Would you do that? I would have to think about that along time.

by nybirdfan on Jul 16, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

UUM, No. Don't they have the most
wonderful Jonathan Papelbon in that spot?

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes, but
i'm not sure how sold they are on the rest of their pen.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I'll play
How about DET? Todd Jones is nothing great, Zumaya and Rodney are currently both injured, looks like they are both due back sometime in August though. As far as who to ask for, this Michael Hollimon guy looks interesting:

http://firstinning.com/players/Michael-Hollimon-a/

by mikedallas23 on Jul 16, 2007 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

cleveland
the indians' closer is currently joe borowski. that is not a typo. 5.30 era. 1.43 whip.

i guess jhonny peralta is probably too much, though.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 10:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re: cleveland
i suppose we wouldn't be able to get Asdrubal Cabrera either?

by lindqja on Jul 16, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?
he's blocked, unless the Tribe plans to trade Peralta for some other pieces in the offseason.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is my band wagon
Watched this kid play a couple of times. He reminds me a lot of Orlando Cabrera.   A hard nosed smooth fielding shortstop that can swipe a bag and has pretty good plate discipline.

by Hammondsbird on Jul 16, 2007 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The move I'd make right now is...
...to sign Todd Walker for the minimum, bat the lefty second ahead of Albert and let him play 2nd base. It would bring in some hitting and cost nothing.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jul 16, 2007 10:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

....except a few runs
THen again, if Kennedy is making multiple errors/game....

by sdrone on Jul 16, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except that Walker
said on The Baseball Show yesterday that he's retired...
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 16, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, even if they're out of reach,
and their clubs aren't contending any more than the Cards are, Troy Tulowitzki and Hanley Ramirez would present ideal targets, wouldn't they?

by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hanley
Ain't going anywhere, unless you want to give them maybe the top 3 prospects in our system. The time to get young players is before they prove themselves at the major league level, once they have proven that they can stick teams just don't get rid of them while they are making $500K, unless they are in a race and desperately need to fill a hole.

by mikedallas23 on Jul 16, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trouble is,
florida doesn't take on salary, and they don't trade cheap players. so we'd have to give them someone cheap and good in return.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could we trade one of our players for
one of the Marlin's executives?  One that runs that farm system?  They draft well, they develop position players and pitchers, and then they can't afford to keep them. Only we could afford to keep the players......

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tulowitzki
I live in Denver - I can say with close to 100% certainty that Tulowitzki is not going anywhere. The Rockies have looked for a good SS for their entire existence and finally have one.
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by TurdFerguson on Jul 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My family went to a game in Tulsa
last year-Troy was at shortstop and the other team was the Angels.  Brandon Wood was still playing shortstop at the time.  They are both going to be something special--they clearly stood out from the other players.

by jillsinmo on Jul 18, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slightly off topic (Izzy wouldn't be in trade)
But Felipe Lopez seems to fit the bill. You might sacrifice a little OBP for some pop, but I think many people would. His OBP has still been over .350 for the last few years.

He's having a down year this year, which could mean he'd be ripe for the picking.

Still arbitration eligible as well I believe.

by KoryWiu14 on Jul 16, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

but he's terrible defensively
like, so bad he really shouldn't be playing shortstop at all. one of the worst defenders in mlb at the position.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was moved to 2B
this season so the Nats could play Cristian Guzman every day.  That should tell you everything you need to know about his defense.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Julio Lugo
The Red Sox would pay some of Lugo's salary if they could get Izzy.  That being said I dont want to trade away Izzy.  We need a closer for next year.

However, If the Red Sox make a run at Arod the Cards could find that Lugo would be a solution at SS.  Orlando Cabrera could also shake loose via trade.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Jul 16, 2007 10:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

would definitely take cabrera
but julio lugo is: not good. and: not young.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 16, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lboros' analysis above
tells me the '08 Cardinals aren't likely to be a good team.  So why on earth do we "need" Izzy to be our closer next year?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This team could/should contend
next year.  Why not?  The rotation has a chance to be much improved w/ Carp, Mulder, Maroth further from surgery, Wainer w/ a year as a starter under his belt.  

This team will need a closer for next year.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish I had your
faith that Carp and Mulder will be their old selves again next year.  Of our high-priced players--AP, Rolen, Edmonds, Izzy, Carp--Izzy is the only one that might bring us back some value in a trade this year (obviously AP would bring back HUGE value, but we all know he's not on the block), I don't get this refusal to consider trading him. Are we just gonna cross our fingers for 2008 and hope for a miracle?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We DON'T need Izzy
I'm with you - we don't need Izzy, even if we were to make a run next year.  Look at all the contending teams mentioned in this thread that don't have top level closers.  Heck, look at the '06 Cardinals, who did just fine with a rookie from within their own system.

All things being equal, everybody would love to have a K-Rod.  But many, many teams have succeeded by just giving the ball to the best arm in their bullpen.

And we're not talking about this resurgent '07 Izzy here, we're talking about the '08 model.  Maybe he'll be just as good next year, but as he'll be turning 36 during next season, I think we'd be very wise to trade him now if we can recoup some value from this late career surge.

I'm not arguing Izzy isn't a valuable player - he is.  That's why he makes a good trading chip right now.

by bgodar on Jul 16, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember Ricky Bottallico?
Heck, remember Dave Veres?  I don't really want to go back to those days.  Having the ninth be an adventure every time out isn't so great.

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember Jason Isringhausen?
I seem to recall the ninth inning being an adventure just last year.  Yes, he was injured.  But at his age we shouldn't expect that to be uncommon.

I guess my point is that I don't see Troy Percival, Ryan Franklin and eventually maybe Chris Perez as being SO MUCH WORSE than Isringhausen '08 that it wouldn't be worth exploring a trade.

We have several players right now who are better than Bottallico or Veres.  Saying "we can afford to trade our closer" isn't the same thing as saying "we can afford to have a lousy bullpen."

by bgodar on Jul 16, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera could shake loose
this offseason, not before then b/c the Angels are a definite WS contender.  But they do have young SS's and, though they've moved Brandon Wood to 3B, they could always move him back if Cabrera brought something in return.  

He wouldn't solve the youth problem, but he would give us 1 more year to find the SS.  It's important to remember that other teams are always trying to get younger as well, so Cabrera may be the one the Angels look to trade.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arroyo is a trade possibility for this year
...we could pick up the remainder of his salary (4.3 M for this season) and see how he does.  He did not pitch well for the first part of the year but he's had quality starts in the last 5 out of 6 games (after the Reds rested him).  It was reported this morning that the Reds are thinking of trading him before the deadline (MLB Trade Rumors).

It's being reported that Contreras may also be available.

It's always fun to bet on the future but I'm still focused on supporting the current team.  I don't care if they win the division but I'd like to see them play well and get back to enjoying the game--like they clearly did last night.  It was great to see them laughing together again in the dugout.  THEY look like they feel as though they still have a chance and they are fighting hard so I'm staying with them.  Plus, because of the adversity they've faced with JH's death and all the injuries this year, I think they deserve extra support even if its betting against the odds.

The offense may be catching fire.  Wainwright certainly proved himself again as a worthy starter, even a potential ace.  Thompson and Looper can be solid ground ball pitchers.   TLR and Dunc both think Wellemeyer has enormous physicial and mental talents that could be refined.  We obviously need another pitcher (at least).  And for all the love Reyes has been shown on this site, I think his four seamer would have been batted out of the park repeatedly and he would have been chased from the game like our first two starters were.  Unless he can figure out location, movement, or increase his velocity, I don't think he's an option (regardless of his relationship with Duncan).  

So maybe we still have some options from the outside to pick up one or two more pitchers before the deadline and just try to do as well as we can.  

by nycardfan on Jul 16, 2007 10:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Chin Lung Hu
The futures game MVP might be available.  I have seen this guy play and he is electric in the field.  This year at Double he hit .329/.380/.508.  So far at Triple A he is hitting .444/.444/1.000 in a limited sample size, 18 ABs.  The Dodgers need offensive help more than anything, but could use another arm out in the bullpen.  They have a Joe Beimel from the left side but probably could use another, say a Randy Flores or maybe Tyler Johnson.

Who manages this team?  Pop Warner?  Seems he is being groomed for the job.  Kind of like Eric Wedge when he took over in Cleveland.

www.whiteyball.com

by whiteyball on Jul 16, 2007 11:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't the Braves have too many shortstops?
Edgar Renteria
Yunel Escobar
Pete Orr
Brent Lillibridge

I imagine that Escobar's out of the question; and that Orr's older than we want.

by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

a year ago
lillibridge would've fit the bill perfectly...near .900 OPS, 50 steals. now he hasn't hit a lick this season between aa and aaa for the braves. his pop and discipline have severely eroded.

by erik on Jul 16, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Erik
Orr's drop from the majors seems to disqualify him as well. Plus the Braves gave up only a very green catcher for Wickman last year (Max Ramirez).

by Don Zero on Jul 16, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lillibridge
was moved up to AAA after posting a .355 OBP at AA.  While he was better last year in A ball, he wasn't having a bad season.  He is struggling a little at AAA (.291 OBP) so far, it's important to remember that he's played just 4 months above A ball.  He probably does need a full season at AAA, but there's a reason the Braves (a team who really knows how to use its farm system) moved him to AAA.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Boston...
as someone said above, Dustin Pedroia fits the criteria needed.  They do have Papelbon, but if memory serves me right they want to move him into the rotation.  It is kind of a Wainwright last year situation.  They want him in the rotation, but he is doing well in the closer spot and don't have a great alternative (I think Joel Pineiro is their next option).  Izzy is low risk for them, they aren't afraid to take on salary, especially with club option for next year.  
I believe Izzy has a no trade clause in his contract though or he automatically gets no trade because of the 10/5 clause.  If the club is serious about trading him, first step is find out where he would want to go.  I think he would be fine with Boston.  He is in the sundown of his career and Boston is in good shape to be serious contenders for the next 3 or 4 years, whereas the Cards are probably going to be doing rebuilding in those years.
If Boston wanted more (which they could), I have also read they would like to move Coco Crisp.  If we threw Reyes in (which I would only do if we got something back), we could get that and help with the speed issue.  He's still young and fairly cheap (07:$3.5M, 08:$4.75M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$8M club option ($0.5M buyout).  
"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Jul 16, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think they want to move Papelbon anymore
They considered moving him into the rotation in the offseason b/c of health issues, but then changed their minds. Wainwright was way more of a temporary fix, whereas Papelbon has been one of the best closers in baseball with ridiculous numbers since the beginning of 2006.

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boston....
As someone who lives in Red Sox City State, there is no frickin' way that the Red Sox trade Pedroia.  First, with his plate discipline, pitch taking, and OBP, I think Theo is in love with Dustin.  Hell, I think I'm in love with Pedroia.  

Lugo, that's an interesting one.  The fans are calling for Alex Gonzalez to get starts.  However, I have to wonder if Theo will give up so quickly on Lugo, who he's been universally raked over the coals for acquiring.  Lugo's been absolutely dreadful this year, both hitting and in the field.

Side note, going to the Red Sox vs. Royals game tonight at Fenway Pahk.  Currently arbitrating a dispute between my mom, who wants to root for the Royals because of Mid-West loyalty and my wife who just might put a size six tennis shoe up her ass if she does.  

Thanks, Larry, by the way for the link back.  I honestly cannot think of any team on the short list of buyers for bullpen help that has a MAJOR league ready SS to fit the bill.  

You're out in Colorado though. What would take to get Barmes?  He's had a horrible year and Tulo has cemented his position.  Why not take a flier on Barmes and see if he can reproduce the pre-deer meat numbers?

by Brock20 on Jul 16, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nothing more relaxing than refereeing fights
between the wife and the mom. i gotta side with mom here --- she gets to root for whoever she wants.

barmes is worth bringing into the discussion, but i'm not a fan. his pre-deer-meat stats were just a fluke, i think --- he was never as good as all that, just got hot at the right time. sort of like bo hart with more power. his career minor-league OPS is only .752, and he doesn't draw walks --- this year only 17 in ~350 plate appearances. he's no longer even that young --- turned 28 this spring.

i'd just as soon have ryan out there. at least he's got superior skills in one aspect of the game (defense), and he's 3 yrs younger than barmes.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Alex Gonzalez...
...plays for the Reds. Alex Cora?

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the speculation on '08 and beyond
must also include who the GM and manager of this team is going to be.  Someone in the front office is going to have to get some solid answers from Walt and Tony on their 08-09 plans.  If Tony is sticking around, why would you acquire any young, unproven players?  If Tony is moving on, then we could save a little money by losing guys like Taguchi, Miles, Maroth and Izzy. Younger, cheaper players could definitely fill their roles (except Izzy) without any drop in performance. Given the current payroll situation and team standing, a premium closer is a luxury we can't afford.

by lefty fan on Jul 16, 2007 11:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That is true. If LaDunc is coming back it will
make no sense to trade for anything but a veteran. I wish Mr. DeWitt would force their hand....at least Jocketty would have to emerge from the witness protection program......

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buster Olney
made an off-hand remark yesterday about keeping an eye on the Cincinnati front office/managerial situation(something's brewing, he says). The names he mentioned as strong candidates: Jocketty and TLR; evidently because they're friends with the owner Robert Castellini, who used to be part of the Cardinals' ownership group.
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 16, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it will take them getting TLR and Walt...
..."traded" for some people to appreciate them. I, for one, don't want to see them go to Cincinnati or anywhere else within the division.

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There you go!
That's a trade chip.  Remember when the D-Rays traded Randy Winn away to get Sweet Lou?

What do you think we could get for Tony?

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, we could be like the D-Rays...
...and have a bunch of younger players with potential, lose 90-100 games a year, and consistently run out starting pitchers like Edwin Jackson.

Sigh. Nothing against younger players, and the team does need to get younger, but it's worth remembering that TLR and Duncan have been way more successful doing it the way they have than most of the teams that are constantly playing for the future but never getting there. (Ok, the Tigers are one example of a team that went through a hard stage of being young and bad, but that team was way farther away from being good than the current one is.)

For all their faults, TLR, Duncan, and Jocketty are still among the best in the business and, with all due respect, they know more about baseball and winning than any of us. When things go bad, as they have recently, it helps to at least try to remember all the success they've brought the team this decade and try to think about how many teams could claim the same success. Any replacement you bring in is bound to have their own faults.

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one here is doubting their
past success or failing to credit them for it.  But people age, times change, and sooner or later your argument runs out of gas.  If we take it as a given that we are not going to see significant rises in the payroll in the next few years, how can we repeat the kind of moves that made this team great in the 2000's?  We're saddled with a few huge contracts to players who are past their primes and will not get better, and the kind of brilliant trades that helped us 7-10 years ago just aren't as easy to pull off any more.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sooner or later your argument runs out of gas
Can the argument really run out of gas just ten months after they won the world series?
Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand the sentiment
that we should give them something of a pass after winning the world series, but the Cardinals kinda had that happen to them.  It wasn't the "seize the bull by the horns" type of season you saw in 04-05.  Last year does little in my mind to secure Walt's and TLR's place -- 2004-05 does a great deal.

Equivocations about 2006 aside, they were not a strong team last year except for playoffs.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes. A team as bad as
the 2006 Cardinals gets one and only one dose of fairy dust.

The WS win will give me happy memories forever. I'm a little frustrated with TLR right now, but I'm not ANGRY with him, or with any other part of the organization, because of what happened in October.  But, I look at this team and I see a squad that needs tearing down and rebuilding.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt the current leadership
and ownership has been great for Cardinal fans that like winning baseball. But I also think, as mdredbirdfreak said, the baseball world has changed. Jocketty acquired McGwire, Edmonds, Renteria, and Rolen for almost nothing. And those guys gave us what at the time of signing would be called the "hometown discount". Those days are over. It also didn't hurt the franchise's success that they drafted some guy named Albert Pujols in the 13th round! Going forward, the farm system must produce more players that can produce consistently for the big league club.  

by lefty fan on Jul 16, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They still got a hometown discount with Carpenter
last fall. Regardless of whether it is good to sign pitchers to long term deal, 5 yrs/65 mil is still a discount given the current market. So I wouldn't say those days are completely over. You can't bank on the hometown discount, but part of the reason there is one to begin with is that the team has been in contention year in and year out. It's a tricky thing, for sure. At the same time, without the prolonged injuries to key players (Carpenter, Eckstein, Edmonds, Izzy) or mysterious slumps by established veterans who are not past their prime (Rolen, Kennedy, or even Marquis last year), this team would have been a lot better. I don't know how many people would have forecast all of these problems.

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen and Kennedy
are, most definitely, past their primes.  That's not to say they're completely washed up, the jury's still out on that one, but their primes were 2-3 years ago, without question.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edmonds took a discount
He had a $10 M option, with a $3 M buyout.  He took a paycut of $2M and had that $3 M buyout deferred to 2010-2019.

In essence, for the next 2 years, Edmonds signed a 2-year, $16 M contract.  

Based on his performance, he is overpaid.  But so is Barry Bonds. I don't think the Cardinals thought Edmonds would spend as much time as he has on the DL.  

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

number crunchin'
First, Reyes at Memphis can't happen, since he's out of options, yes?

On to the savings...

Per Cot's, Maroth is set to make $2.95MM (instead of 5MM).

Taguchi (1MM) becomes Schumaker (400K).

Encarnacion ($6.5MM) becomes Ankiel by hisself (500K) or Ludwick (Stavinoha is raking lefties, iirc) platoon.

Izzy becomes Chris Perez (350K) and/or Troy Percival ($3MM).  I think this is likely since the rest of the Anaheim gang will all be intact for another year.  Having Perez tutored by Percival would be a luxury and yet still 50% cheaper than one Izzy.  And it would take a lot of pressure off of Perez.

Total savings: 10.7MM-13.7MM (with the difference between those two numbers being Percival).

That doesn't include Looper or--ahem--Rolen.  

youneverknow

by meat on Jul 16, 2007 12:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Izzy is more than likely going to stay
the was the impression that Strauss is getting from the front office.

You are right about Reyes, he has to break camp with the big league club or be put on waivers (something he WON'T clear).

That means, we have 6 starting pitchers.  Carpenter, Mulder, Maroth, Reyes can't go to the bullpen.  Wainwright is an #2 in the making.  That means Looper is the odd man out.  He could be put back in the bullpen if they chose to do that.

All of that means Thompson (my personal favorite) is forced to go back to the pen.

Juan has to go.  Not because of the disdain many fans in St. Louis have for him or anything like that.  It's just that there are much cheaper options (Ludwick, Ankiel, Skip) for CF so that Edmonds can move over.  

I wouldn't doubt if the only players the Cardinals don't bring back are Encarnacion, Eckstein, Wells, Wellemeyer and Springer.

Bennett has a club option in 2008 for $.9M.  No way they let him walk with so little money owed.

Interesting about Bennett, I just saw this on Cot's contracts:

Gary Bennett c
1 year/$0.9M (2007)

sent outright to AAA 6/28/07

They must have confused him with Stinnett.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re maroth's salary
it is $2.95m this year; he will be arb eligible next season, and i'm guessing he'll be in the $5m range based on what 3d-year arb-eligible starting pitchers tend to make. might be slightly more or less, but it'll be in the general vicinity of $5m per year.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OF next year
They're going to have 5 OFs.
Duncan and Edmonds are givens.
a RH bat that starts in right (Enc or an upgrade)
then if you figure the bench fills out with Ludwick and Ankiel, which would give you 2 bats with serious pop off the bench, there's no room for either Skip or So.

I could see them keeping So around, but I just don't see Skip having any future as a light-hitting LH outfield bat, when we have lots of good-hitting LH outfield bats on the way.  I think that Ankiel as a 4th outfielder does Skip's job in the field and hits a whole lot more.

by CardFaninVA on Jul 16, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

5 OF's
Which is why Juan needs to be dumped.  We can get better defense and near the offense from a platoon that costs under 1MM (Ankiel/Ludwick).

Then you've got Schu, Spiezio, and the non-starting RF (Ludwick usually) providing depth. That's not bad, and it saves over $5MM.  Not to mention that the defense you get from Ankiel, Ludwick, Schumaker should be exceptional.

No So, please.
     

youneverknow

by meat on Jul 16, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ideas
I'm thinking maybe Yunel Escobar or even Ronny Cedeno, though they won't draw walks.  

by Tim Dierkes on Jul 16, 2007 12:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I would like to see the Cards make a hard push for
Erick Aybar.  I've been to a couple games where he has gotten starts at 3b and 2b and he looked great (despite relatively no professional experience).  The Angels have also used him in LF.  They don't have room for him at SS assuming they will hold on to Cabrera.  He is a plus defender and a pretty good bat.  Plus we would have him cheap for four years.

I proposed C Dunc for Aybar or we could try Reyes for Aybar.  I know that C Dunc has been the only offensive power other than Albert, but I think looking at our club for next year as LBoros has presented, SS is the only place where we can upgrade.  And left field can probably filled by Ankiel, Stav, or if possible someone like Hunter or Adam Dunn.  Then the Angels would use Dunc as a 1b or DH.

by OCCardsFan on Jul 16, 2007 12:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yikes
I wouldn't trade Duncan period at this point. It's really hard to assume any minor leaguer is going to come up and put up the same kind of numbers -- and he is still getting better. I am always puzzled when I see talk of trading him, because how often do you find 30+ HR hitters with good plate discipline for the league minimum?

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Dunn is basically...
...the same player as Duncan for about $10 million more per year. I'd rather put THAT money toward a shortstop, lefty reliever, or starting pitcher than spend it on Dunn. And Torii Hunter's going to be way out of the Cardinals' market ... plus he's a CF and if Rasmus is being groomed for that spot, then signing an expensive free agent CF (with Edmonds still on board) won't happen.

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly Dunn is the same player
And will likely be available.  What SS are you going to spend money on?  This has been covered time and again... there is no one decent available in the coming offseason, unless you count ARod.  My point is that SS is much much harder to fill than LF.  So if you trade Dunc for Aybar and then sign Dunn, I believe the team is greatly improved.

by OCCardsFan on Jul 16, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But who's to say Aybar...
...would be as good at SS as Duncan has been (as a hitter) in left field? I would much rather stick with Duncan than sign Dunn, who, as much I like him and as good as his OPS is, just doesn't seem like a winning player. I think when you have someone as good and cheap as Duncan, you have to stick with him. That deal would be a steal for the Angels.

by willievinceterry on Jul 16, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aybar
has had major problems this year w/ plate discipline -- 8 BB in 157 AB, .280 OBP.  I'm not opposed to trading for him, it is his first full year in the bigs and he may improve, but there are some genuine concerns about his ability to get on base enough to justify starting every day.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

percival anyone???
instead of shipping away a guy like izzy(who'll close next year if we do?) y dont we try to send percival to a team like cleveland.  hes a proven closer who has a boat load of postseason experience on a team that has none.  If we packaged him with someone like reyes or kip wells(jk) maybe we could get Asdrubal Cabrera.  i know it might be a long shot and we may have to add in another player but peralta is really proving himself for them at short and is pretty young himself.  then again we did just draft a short stop so maybe a young 2b/3b would be better.  i like aybar but i doubt the angels will give him up easily

by all in the cards on Jul 16, 2007 12:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Andy Marte
I have heard that Cleveland has fallen out of favor with this guy. Maybe Springer for him straight up with the season that Springer is having?
Come on You Redbirds--Mike Shannon

by BluesDrummer85 on Jul 16, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Kelly Johnson
ATL doesn't seem to be using as a FT player, even though he can hit and get on base well and has done so as a lead off hitter. He's a 2B, so that doesn't answer the SS question.

by VanRam on Jul 16, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Trading Izzy
it's important to understand that, while Izzy is our most valuable trading chip, trading him to fill a hole only creates another one.  Perhaps Percival could be signed in the offseason to close, maybe the organization would take a chance on Perez being ready (doubt it), or maybe we could find someone else who could do the job, but closers are as difficult to find as young shortstops.  So it may be in the Cards' best interest to pick up Izzy's option and try to find the SS some other way.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It would explain the Percival signing
Though I don't really see who that SS is going to be anyway.  Izzy's very good, but I don't see what awesome young shortstop he'll fetch in a trade.

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just let Ryan play
If Eckstein won't accept a 2 year contract for less than what he is currently making, let Brendan Ryan be the everyday SS.  If he sucks, give the job to Miles.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not opposed to a
Ryan/Miles combo for next year but I don't believe either is the long-term solution.  Maybe Ryan will prove me wrong.  That would give us another year to find our SS and allow some payroll to spend on an OF.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glad I'm not alone in that thinking...
because Ryan does fit the description of "20something shortstop who can bat leadoff, draw a walk, and steal a base."

He's young, he can hit, he can draw a walk, and the kid likes to run.  Granted he's made a few errors since being called up, but it's his first year, and he's probably over-anxious and excited.

I wouldn't mind seeing him as the everyday SS next year at all.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jul 16, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm doubling up here,...
but it's worth mentioning again.  

Pay Percival 3MM to close next year and tutor Chris Perez to take over in 2009.  Hell, pay Percival ~4MM and you still get two closers for the price of Izzy, '09 version.  Takes pressure off of Perez, too.  And if the team's out of it next summer, then maybe you could even move Percival for something of value.  This seems like a GM's dream scenario here.

It starts with trading Izzy.  

youneverknow

by meat on Jul 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is a blockbuster
Send Rolen and Kennedy (back) to the Angels for Kendrick OR Aybar.  Maybe see if they will throw in Santana for Reyes if the Cards pick up more of Rolen's salary.

by WizardofOz on Jul 16, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

rolens not moving
not only did someone previously mention that rolen has a no trade clause but u really think any team wants an over the hill (offensevily) third baseman who hits 260 and 10hr a year.  if he had put up good numbers in the playoffs and not just the WS then maybe the cards could play the "postseason player" card but it would still require us buying him out of his no trade clause.  This is a tough situation for us cause we're tryin to show loyalty to scott but at the same time he has to start producing.
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 16, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen
I doubt Rolen would block a trade out of STL (and away from TRL), especailly when he has the chance to go to a contender like the Angels.  I am still a beleiver that Rolen is not washed up and think he can still be moved in the right deal, especially considering that it appears Glaus is off the market.  While Scotty is not the high priced vet I would like to see moved (as we have no young 3b in the system) I think he is the only one with enough trade value to get any legit prospects in return.  Spiezio can fill in until an alternative is found.  Sure we will have to pay some of Rolens salary, but it accomplishes the goals of shedding some money and clearing spots on the roster.

by WizardofOz on Jul 16, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Add this to your doubts
Rolen's a midwest guy.  Has a farm nearby. Grew up rooting for the Cardinals.  Has been frequently quoted (including last night by Gammons) as not as dissapointed with LaRussa as himself.  And has huge say over any trade - making it very difficult to manufacture a deal.

by enoscountry on Jul 16, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like this trade idea
trade Springer and Cate to relief pitching starved colorado rockies for Clint Barmes. Might have to switch Brad Thompson for Springer. We get that middle infielder that we need. Then trade Eckstein to the Arizona Dbacks for Carlos Quinton.  We get a young quick bat in right field and Dbacks get the leadoff hitter they lack.

by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So,
a team that has a good, young SS (Stephen Drew) is going to trade one of their top prospects (Quentin) for a rental SS (Eckstein)?

by CardFaninVA on Jul 16, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still like this deal
you might be suprised. Drew is struggling on the field and at the plate. PHX. newspapers have questioned his work ethic.....sound familiar?  They just sent Quentin back down to AAA. The dback have a surplus of outfielders that they feel can produce better than Quentin. A rental might be just what the dbacks need to push over the top.

by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't it make more sense to try and trade
for Drew?  Eck and Garcia or something like that?

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still think...
Clint Barmes would look good palying SS for the Cardinals. He doesn't stand a chance playing short again for the Rockies. The Dbacks won't trade Drew and they shouldn't. They (Dbacks) are starting to see what it means not having a true leadoff hitter and how fragile young players are in pennant drives.

by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brad Thompson isn't the young pitcher to trade
he, unlike Reyes, can be used as an effective starter or be moved to long relief.  Reyes can only be a starter.  He has a higher ceiling that Reyes, but for a team that will have a glut of starting pitching next year (barring major injuries), a bullpen/spot start guy isn't the one to be sending away.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
I like Thompson too but you have to give away talent to get talent. I think if Thompson could help get us someone like Clint Barmes we should do it.

by rwalters on Jul 16, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Thompson but
He has a higher ceiling that Reyes

Despite all of Reyes' downfalls this year, this is wrong.  Thompson does not have a higher ceiling than Reyes despite his recent success.  He is more versatile and doing well right now but when you are talking pure upside, I can't imagine how Thompson with his middling stuff gets ranked above Reyes.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes' ceiling is definitely higher
that's why, despite his current numbers, he still has trade value -- perhaps more than anyone we might make available.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes ceiling is higher
but I think Thompson might be more valuable (if that makes any sense). Reyes definitely has the potential to be a #3 guy down the road, but Thompson is a #5/bullpen guy right now. Depends what people are looking for, of course.

I would certainly hope Reyes would bring more in a trade, but I hope we don't have to find out.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thompson is a proven success
at the major league level.  Reyes is not.  Wells also has lots of potential and we've seen "his electic stuf" in the bullpen.  But when he gets on the mound, who knows where it goes.  Reyes hasn't proven that he is any different from Wells when it comes to the Majors, and he has less electric stuff.  

by nycardfan on Jul 16, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

when you are talking ceiling
Reyes still has a higher one regardless of their performances to date.  And the Reyes = Wells comparison is bunk.  Reyes has less than a fullseason of starts to his name at the majors.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the majors, Reyes still has a limited
number of good pitches, inufficient velocity and control, and hasn't shown mental toughness with runners on base.  

Perhaps most striking, his surprise and perplexity about the importance of pregame preparation and pitch location--which he expressed in recent interviews--makes me question whether he has the strategic sensibility to put his gifts to work.  He's got minor league stats, but what's he thinking about before and during his games?  Compare that to Wainwright's extensive preparation for his games with video analysis and his focus on not only the importance of his pitch locations but also the need to constantly change those patterns to keep opponents off balance.  That is what helped him to win last night.  I still think Reyes, in those same circumstances and with his pitches, would have been blown off the field with the Phillies power.

Thompson has shown a lot of mental toughness and concern for pitch location and patterns.  He may become a groundball machine--we don't yet know what his future holds.  All we can go on is what pitchers do when they get on the actual field.  Thompson indisputably has the better record at the major league level than Reyes.  

As far as the Wells comparison.  It simply points to the fact that promise and even success with obvious gifts in one venue is absolutely no guarantee in another venue.

by nycardfan on Jul 16, 2007 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you are taking Reyes out of his career
context.  His mph has been down this year but his two plus pitches are still more than Thompson has with his middling velocity.  Thompson gets by because he gets groundballs but there isn't a lot of upside to him.  He's not the type of pitcher you would expect to go out and dominate a good offensive team.  Reyes, at his best, was and did.

It does sound like Reyes was a little immature regarding his starts but trying to say that lowers his ceiling is simply not how prospects are evaluated.  Elijah Dukes has 43 children from like 54 different mothers but that doesn't lower his ceiling or upside as far as his baseball skillset is concerned.  It does affect the evaluation of whether he will translate those tools into results but the upside is still there.

This discussion of mental toughness that you bring up is largely a moot point because neither you nor I have any clue what's going on in these pitcher's heads when they are actually throwing the ball.  Conjecture on our part has no substantive value.

As far as the wells comparison, it's totally out of context with Reyes.  There aren't any parallels to be drawn.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if a guy has an absurd strand rate
and has his ops against balloon with runners on, then it's either a mental issue or he can't throw from the stretch.  What other explanation do you have?  How is that not substantive, other than trying to justify a counterargument based on sample size?

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

check out his splits
of bases empty versus runners on.

it's not pretty

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

strand rates
Pitchers with strand rates less than 60% are usually the victim of bad luck.  Only truly terrible starters strand that few.  That's not to say that Reyes should be stranding 80% by any means but mid to upper 60's is probably closer to where he should be at.

You offer your own counter arguments. To assume it's a mental issue when there are equally valid sample size arguments or arguments about his mechanics from the stretch totally undercuts the mental aspect of it.  

The reason it's not substantive is because it's total conjecture; there's no unique qualifer that points to "lack of mental toughness" as opposed to statistically proven LOB% averages or visible changes in mechanics.  We can't hear Reyes' thoughts on the mound.  It's the evidential equivalent of me saying unicorns steal my socks because I can't find them.  I didn't see the unicorns but my socks are lost.  There are other reasons but the unicorn fits my preconceived notions of the situation so it must be unicorns.  (I'm not saying that to be snarky; I'm trying to use hyperbole to offer a case in point type of argument.)

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not just the strand rate
his OPSA goes from .500 with the bases empty to over 1 with runners on.  It's even worse with RISP.  For whatever reason, he's pitching horribly with runners on base.  

And the metaphor isn't valid because we know that Reyes has thoughts and has some sort of mental makeup.  it's ridiculous to equate someone attributing his struggles to mental makeup to someone else attributing phenomena to leprechauns or whatever.  

To be snarky, what you're saying is the logical equivalent of saying 'we don't know his thoughts, he could be a robot designed to throw four seam fastballs, and hence, has no thoughts."  I don't see the logic in going into some sort of Cartesian skepticism about whether or not Reyes has a positive or negative mental makeup.

Just because we can't prove that his problems are due to mental makeup doesn't mean that it isn't a pretty valid possible explanation for his struggles.  It is possible, but unlikely, that it is some sort of statistical fluke.  It is also possible that it is some sort of mechanical problem related to pitching out of the stretch, though no one offers any evidence for this, either.  In fact, given his statements about game preparation and video watching, there is in fact more evidence that his problems may be mental.

by Valatan on Jul 16, 2007 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes I don't want to use the subject line
It is possible, but unlikely, that it is some sort of statistical fluke. [...] In fact, given his statements about game preparation and video watching, there is in fact more evidence that his problems may be mental.

Do you expect him to come out and say, "Well statistically I'm still waiting for my luck to regress to the mean."  There were plenty of times that he said at the beginning of the year that he said he pitched well and things just didn't go his way.  I don't think knee-jerk post-game comments made to the media offer us a lot of valid insight.  And I really don't know why you think it's unlikely it's a fluke.  We're talking about 65 innings with a strand rate of 58%.  His strand rate last year in 86 innings was 76%.  That says anamoly to me.

I make no claim to him being robotic.  As third party observers we should probably pick the choice that we have the evidence to support.  Research shows that LOB% has some ranges that are considered the "norm" and that Reyes is outside of those.  I'd rather rely on that evidence than anecdotal remarks about his mental preparedness made to the newspapers.  Maybe he gets rattled but I'm not willing to draw that conclusion from 65 innings this year.

Is mental makeup a plausible explanation? Yes.  Is it the one most supported by the verifiable evidence we have? Not in my opinion.

LB has shown pitch charts relating to his pitch selection.  His mph is down from every report that we had heard prior to this year (which could easily be a mechanical issue).  His minor league track record is impeccable.  I think he's suffering from bad luck and some growing pains in the majors.  I don't think that he's too intimidated/scared/weak to make a good pitch with runners on base -- that seems like a reach to me.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I stated below
it was merely a typo.  I would never think Thompson has better 'stuff' than Reyes, nor that he has a much higher level to play at.

Reyes may never reach his full potential, but he does have more potential than Thompson.  Thompson may get more out of what he has, though.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i know
there seems to be some tangential confusion as to what ceiling is though.  I saw your response earlier.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't mean to say that
it was supposed to be Reyes has a higher ceiling than Thompson.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about eating
salary? What if we trade Rolen, Edmonds, Izzy, etc with the assumption of eating salary. Example We trade Rolen to Angels for E. Santana and we'll eat all his salary. The way I see it is (for example purposes) a Miguel Cabrerra is making small-term dollars, but everybody knows he will make the big money. So we would just be paying that salary a year earlier to Rolen instead of Miguel. But when it's time for us to pay Miguel, Rolen is off the books and we can pay him. Your still paying 10mil regardless. Sort of a redistribution of wealth.
Don't know the real numbers...
Rolen 10 mil  Cabrerra(ex) 450k (due raise)
Cardinals trade rolen for cabrerra eat salary
Cardinals pay 10.45mil
Rolen off books -10mil
Cabrerra due raise +10mil
Cardinals pay 10mil and get younger
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jul 16, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

We won't get Miguel Cabrera
he stated he has no desire to leave Miami and secondly, his defense is getting progressively worse.

He'll be 300 lbs by the time he reaches FA.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and why would
the Marlins trade Cabrera for Rolen?

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A bridge
I was suggesting to find a player who will get a big contract but doesn't have one now. Trade for said player using, say Rolen, and eating all of the salary. So your paying for Rolen and Player X salary for a year. Then when Rolen comes off the books, use the money saved to sign Player X. In a budget, your payroll will only go up a few hundred grand one year and then resume to normal the next.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Jul 16, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He made
quite possibly the dumbest play I've ever seen anyone try to make in pro baseball when I saw the Fish play the Padres a couple of weeks ago.

He threw home when he had no chance (no force, but the guy was there anyway) at the plate instead of taking an easy out at first.

It was so bad their pitching coach or manager (I don't remember which) came out to chew him out under the pretense of talking to the pitcher.  I don't think I've seen that done before.

by whopperman on Jul 16, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not sure i understand...
what you are saying, but if you are saying we should be eat salary in order to get better prospects in return then I agree.  I still don't think we could/should trade Rolen or Edmonds.  But I think trading Juan Enc or Looper would be a good idea.
"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 16, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

all u can eat buffet
i'm glad it only took 2 posts on miguel cabrera for someone to mention his ballooning belly...o and theres noooo way the cardinals could get him but if florida refuses to pay him and Arod leaves NYC perhaps we'll see miguel in pinstripes.  but seriously rolen for cabrera?????
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 16, 2007 4:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That REALLY would have to mean the end of
pitch to contact.  I think a lot of players could play third base with their eyes covered than Miguel can.  Dreadful defense. Oh, he can hit though.........

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2009
I know it is a little early to figure this out but I think a 2009 matrix would be very informative.  2008 almost seems like a lost year due to the restriction imposed by salary, everything we do will be tinkering.  By 2009 this team will start to look like what our future will be.  I would think 2010-2011 is our next real shot at a title...

by BigJawnMize on Jul 16, 2007 4:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ok ideas
Try
  1. Looper to the Braves. Maybe for Brent Lillibridge. Could be adding another Greene.
  2. Maroth and Springer to the Dodgers. Maybe for Betemit. (Corner the market on guys like Greene)
  3. En'cion to the Twins (when they fail to get anyone else and take the cheap route.) Maybe for Chris Parmelee.
  4. Somehow make either Miles or Speiz go away we can not be spending $4M next year for a Medium and a Large size backup.
Now the hard part. Even if we do 1 & 3 or 2 & 3 that still only frees up $11M. Assuming we have a $100-105M Budget I don't know what we can get. We need help from a minor leaguer we weren't counting on.

by Harknights on Jul 16, 2007 4:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Shedding Izzy, Looper, and Juan
Listening to trades for Izzy seems like a great idea, especially if it can net us a young SS with potential. If our asking price is not met, what if we don't re-sign Izzy? Do we get a draft pick? If so, why not shed the contract? Couldn't a low-cost closer be found within the system or on the market?

I also think that we should listen if anyone is interested in Looper. What he gives us could be found for cheaper (either as an average reliever or a slightly below-average starter). Perhaps we could acquire some A or AA arms.

I think that we should try to get rid of JuanE for whatever we can and play a cheaper platoon in RF that could probably produce a .290 BA/.310 OBP/ 20 HR.

Without those three, we could save a fair amount of money.

Question: If TLR and Jocketty are back, don't you think they will attempt to bring back Eck?

by bgh on Jul 16, 2007 4:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Adam Jones
I would think with the Ms current outfield situation Adam Jones could be had --- Might could do this deal:

Izzy, Chris Perez, Scott Rolen

for:

Beltre, Jones

Jones was a SS up until last year and was not moved for defensive reasons - he was moved b/c there is no way he could out defense Seattle's current SS.

Any takers?

Everyone presumably saw my diary on the Angels current 3B prospect - the truth is I just don't know how we could pry him away...

As for Arod - It would make alot of sense to trade for him this year if you were willing to take a McGwire/Rolen type of gamble that he would become enamored with the city of STL.  What would it take?  Number one the Yanks out (which probably wouldn't happen until August) then Arod agreeing (again probably wouldn't happen) then:

Colby Rasmus and Chris Perez..

Yikes!

by Lawless on Jul 16, 2007 5:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Jones is untouchable
he's not moving -- he's a better prospect than anything we have in our system right now.

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2007 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree but...
He's blocked - What about a prospect for prospect swap of B. Anderson and A. Reyes for Jones.  Word on the street is that Clement is not going to cut it at C.  Jones is blocked in Seattle....  Plus they have a propensity for really crappy trades - Hellllloooo Jose Vidro

by Lawless on Jul 16, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sense of duty
Alex Rodriguez will have a ton of pressure from his agent and the players union to test the free agent market. It is a great responsibility to try to drive up his price so that the other players can benefit from the effect of his market shift.

Does that necessarily make him a greedy player? Not really - he just needs to maximize the opportunities for the rest of the union. If it was up to him, would he take less money to play for a good team in a forgiving town? Who knows.

It'd be nice if he would take a lifetime contract with the Cardinals for $16M per year, with an opt out / declining skills clause for the team if he should get injured along the way. But none of that is ever going to happen. He needs to pressure the club owners to get the largest deal possible.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 16, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

J.J. Putz
The M's also have a closer in J.J. Putz.  The fans at Safeco are Thunderstruck by him.  ERA under 1.00 (http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=sea&playerID=407816) and 9.96 K/9.  Sorry, but the Mariners don't need Izzy.
Join me in Tacoma in early August to cheer on our Memphis Redbirds

by ColinMacLeod on Jul 16, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Putz
I saw the numbers he put up last season and figured that people stopped picking on his name once he started little league. That dude can pitch.

by liam on Jul 16, 2007 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adam Jones
I would think with the Ms current outfield situation Adam Jones could be had --- Might could do this deal:

Izzy, Chris Perez, Scott Rolen

for:

Beltre, Jones

Jones was a SS up until last year and was not moved for defensive reasons - he was moved b/c there is no way he could out defense Seattle's current SS.

Any takers?

Everyone presumably saw my diary on the Angels current 3B prospect - the truth is I just don't know how we could pry him away...

As for Arod - It would make alot of sense to trade for him this year if you were willing to take a McGwire/Rolen type of gamble that he would become enamored with the city of STL.  What would it take?  Number one the Yanks out (which probably wouldn't happen until August) then Arod agreeing (again probably wouldn't happen) then:

Colby Rasmus and Chris Perez..

Yikes!

by Lawless on Jul 16, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ben Sheets to the 15-day DL
...the more things change.

Also, if Franklin is moved to the rotation, he gets performance clauses that bump up his contract in 08 and 09.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 16, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What about Ben Zobrist?
He had a pretty good season last year w/ the Rays and was sent back to AAA when he didn't hit anything this year.  Brendan Harris took over at SS and has played really well.  The Rays are always looking for young pitchers and may be committed to Harris at this point.  Plus, Reid Brignac isn't too far away, assuming he turns around his poor season so far.  Maybe they'd be interested in Reyes for Zobrist?  He's 26 and played a league average SS last year, can hit some, no real speed to speak of but he'd probably be a solid SS for the next few years.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2007 5:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Plus he's the cousin
of the best free throw shooter in the NCAA back in 1997, Bradley's Aaron Zobrist!

He's from Eureka, Il, iirc. I wonder if he's a Sox, Cubs, or Cards fan?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 17, 2007 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I was the boss...
  1. Izzy has got to go.  The idea that we need an $8m closer is preposterous.  He is a great pitcher, but for a team that has little wiggle room, one of the only values has to be moved.
  2. Reyes has got to go.  Every start that he pitches in Memphis is a waste, both for him and the team.  It's pretty obvious that he is not going to get a fair shake from the current regime, so deal him while he still retains value.
  3.  If Juan can be moved, he should.  I'd put him in the same category as Iz: not a terrible player or value, but he's got value and so he probably needs to go.
Targets:
SS-
Asdrubal Cabrera - Good call, lindqja.  Great fielder, switch hitter, bat starting to light up, blocked by Peralta, Indians need relief help.
Ben Zobrist - Former TB starter, switch hitter struggled at the beginning of the year.  Very good fielder, currently hitting .262/.382/.422 with 7 SB in AAA.  Since TB has 2 hot shot SS on the way, Zobrist could come cheap.

Here are my trades:
Izzy plus cash to Cleveland for Asdrubal Cabrera
AND
Reyes and PTBNL to TB for Zobrist and Dukes
AND
Juan Enc to anyone for a young, toolsy prospect in low A.

If one of them doesn't pan out, no biggie.  If they both end up solid, one of them could move over to 2B.  Clear out Juan, and that's $13 off the books, a couple of young SS to work with, and if you want athletic and young, Elijah Dukes is your man. I've got to believe he's available and the TB would move him for a young, ready starter like Reyes.

SD

by sdangler on Jul 16, 2007 5:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ah
houstoncardinal, we see eye to eye.  you think they would throw in dukes with that package?

SD

by sdangler on Jul 16, 2007 5:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Shortstop 2008 - Carlos Guillen
Carlos Guillen is absolutely the man for the job...though it'd be quite a long shot for him to sign with the Cards.  I imagine the Tigers would do everything they can to keep him around.

Nonetheless, removal of salary (Izzy...wait, don't the Tigers need a reliever?) by the end of the season could make this a possibility.  I imagine a guy like Guillen could command at least $10-12 million a year.  

by lightbulb on Jul 16, 2007 6:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Drag
Thanks 26thMan.  

by lightbulb on Jul 17, 2007 12:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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