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grrrr and grrrrrr-er

says here the cards won't be trading for a starting pitcher any time soon; nobody available. the same article says anthony reyes "is not believed on the fast track back to St. Louis." that absolutely mystifies me. compare:

inn/
start
oppo
slg
oppo
obp
hr/9 avg
gm sc
era whip
thompson 6 .476 .331 1.3 46 4.50 1.417
reyes 5.2 .446 .324 1.1 46 6.08 1.350
wainwright 5.2 .473 .382 0.9 44 5.19 1.702
wells 5.2 .482 .346 1.5 42 6.40 1.521
wellemeyer 4.1 .500 .410 4.2 45 5.19 1.920

let's see: reyes lasts about as long as all the other starters (except looper, who i left off this list because he's clearly better than all of them). he's got the lowest whip, lowest on-base allowed, lowest slugging avg allowed. he gives up fewer homers than everybody except wainwright. and he's got the highest (tied) average game score. yet he's got to work on his game; the others are guys we want to go to war with.

brad thompson's last start was a typical reyes outing: 6 innings, 4 earned runs, 9 baserunners, and 1 homer. thompson blew a 1-1 tie in the 5th inning by yielding a leadoff double to the #8 hitter --- who had a .179 average ---- and then giving up three consecutive two-out hits; 3 runs across, cards trailing 4-1. when this sort of thing used to happen to reyes (and it did, repeatedly), we'd all get pissed off and give up hope; 'nother loss, damn you reyes. ah, but the cardinals did something in thompson's outing that they never did in a reyes outing --- they rallied and won the game 6-4 --- and so thompson's effort was deemed acceptable. and it was acceptable --- game score of 42, which is a borderline-competent major-league start. reyes posted game scores of at least 42 in 7 of his 9 outings, but he went 0-6 in those 7 games, because the team only scored 17 runs total.

reyes may be stubborn and stupid and all the other things his detractors say about him, but the cardinals are just as stubborn and stupid if they keep him off the roster. he's one of their five best starting pitchers, and it's not a close call --- and they're desperate for starters. anthony has pitched well in both his starts down at memphis, including last night's (in which, cruelly, he was yet again denied his first win of 2007). stop screwing around and get him back up here already.

* * * * * * * *

i'll be updating the cards' list of draftees in this diary throughout the day. yesterday's draft thread is up to date; i've added a few more links with information about the cards' 1st through 5th round picks. good reading on the draft this morning at the post-dispatch blogs. Bird Land has an unedited Q+A with jeff luhnow, which includes luhnow's answer to this question:
it seems there has been a lot of reaction about passing on (Rick) Porcello. I'm wondering how tough a call is something like that? If there is a guy who by nearly all accounts is a pretty special talent, how tough is that to pass on it?
head on over there for the answer. meanwhile bernie miklasz, at his new blog, writes about the fans' (over?)reaction to the selections. that's an unanticipated consequence to mlb's stepped-up marketing of the draft; hype was at an all-time high, and when fans' expectations weren't met there was a backlash. i haven't checked any other boards, but i guarantee that cardinal fans were not alone yesterday in their cries of "what? how can they take this guy over rick porcello?" the cardinals' draft team may have heightened the problem by sending mixed signals. they said both a) we're going to get a high-impact player with our first-round pick, because we're drafting 10 spots higher than usual; and b) we're going to make an unorthodox pick that leaves the pundits scratching their heads. if i'm not mistaken, statement "a" was uttered by walt jocketty, while "b" passed the lips of jeff luhnow; there's that ol' front-office rift again. . . . . in any case, the fans heard "a" and salivated, then were let down when "b" turned out to be the operative strategy.

if the cardinals had taken, say, michael main instead of pete kozma (main went six picks later, at #24), i'm almost sure there wouldn't have been so much anger over the pass on porcello. why? because there was consensus among the draft pundits that main was a top-20 pick. people still might have been slightly disappointed (and maybe somewhat angry) that the cardinals wouldn't meet porcello's asking price, but mike main was an exciting pick in his own right --- not because of anything we knew about him ourselves, first-hand, but because of what the pundits had told us about him: viz., he has a high ceiling. the pundits had created some buzz around main; there wasn't much buzz around kozma. but that doesn't necessarily mean kozma lacks upside, and it doesn't mean his ceiling is only at the level of a david eckstein-type player. that comparison was bandied about yesterday, and it doesn't hold for me. david eckstein was a walk-on in college; kozma has a full-ride scholarship offer from wichita state, an elite program that has produced 25 major-league players --- and, eyeballing the alumni list, at least a dozen first-round picks. moreover, the pundits did agree that kozma was a top-40 pick (and a number of them had him in the top 20: espn's keith law had him going at #21; jonathan mayo of mlb.com had him in the same slot; jim callis of baseball america projected him at #15). by contrast, eckstein wasn't drafted until the 19th round at number 581. you just can't compare those two draftees. now, kozma might ultimately prove to be an eckstein clone; hell, he might prove not to be half the player eckstein is, might never even get to the big leagues. but if you compare the two at age 18 (the only fair comparison at this point), kozma blows eckstein out of the water. he's held in vastly higher regard by college recruiters and professional scouts than eckstein was at that age. so i feel safe in assuming that eckstein is too low a threshold; pete kozma's ceiling is higher than that.

is it higher than rick porcello's? probably not. but porcello was going to cost about $10 million, and the cardinals refused to pay, either because a) they're cheap, or b) they thought the risk outweighed the reward at that price. they're claiming the latter; i'm suspending judgment until it all plays out.

here's the ironic thing: while the cards' first-day harvest is being scoffed at as unbearably "safe" --- a signable shortstop and a bunch of college pitchers --- the truly safe thing to do would have been to stay with the herd and draft per the pundits' consensus. if the cards had taken michael main, few would be criticizing them --- and if main turned out to be a bust, people still wouldn't criticize because they'd have been just as wrong about the kid as the cardinals. same would be true if the cardinals had chosen josh smoker, tim alderson, will middlebrooks, or even kyle russell, whom the cardinals ultimately did take in the 4th round. so luhnow and co. are actually taking some hefty risks. they think their draftees have potential that the pundits missed; if they're wrong and the pundits were right, judgment will be merciless. they're putting their credibility on the line.

nothing safe about that.

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Good interview by DG
Good stuff from you the past 2 days, as well Larry.

I sure hope that the interview helped others see what the Cards' brass was thinking.

I just cannot bring myself to judge this draft so harshly like others on this board have, because I can actually admit that I don't know that much about these players.  I haven't seen them  play personally.

If anyone at VeB can honestly say that they've personally seen these players beyond the scouting blurbs and videos - then I will put more weight into your opinions.

Otherwise - lets all wait and see.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

"Draft protesters" are way off base
Those who have so vehemently protested the signing of Pete Kozma are way off base. This was not a sign of the Cardinals being cheap, in my opinion, but a sign of them being smart. Picking him at #18 filled the biggest gap in their minor leagues system. Here are the advantages of picking Kozma at #18:
  1. He was the best pure ML shortstop prospect in the draft. HS and college SS's usually project to 2B or OF. Kozma projects to be a ML SS with a ceiling somewhere between Mark Loretta and Nomar Garciaparra. That's a big improvement over Eckstein, who will almost surely be gone by the time Kozma is ready for the NL.
  2. The Cardinals do not have any SS prospects in their system that project to be at least average or above average across all 5 essential tools.
  3. The Cardinals have the weakest SS-2B combo in the NL offensively and a below average middle infield defensively, not good for a team that teaches it's pitchers to induce ground balls.
  4. The Cardinal minor leagues system has more than enough prospects for the outfield (Ankiel , Stavinoha, Rasmus, Mather, Jay) and pitching (Garcia, Hawksworth, Ottavino, Narveson, Perez, Worrell); Pujols and Rolen have the corner infield covered for the next couple of years or more; no top quality catching was available by pick #18 (fortunately Bryan Anderson is already in the system).
  5. The Reds and Twins had their eyes on Kozma, according to Baseball America. The Twins might have picked Kozma at #28, the Reds at #34, per BA, so there was a real risk Kozma would be gone by the time the Cardinals took their pick at #36.
  6. Porcello, the best player available at #18, is high potential, high cost, high risk (as risky as any HS pitching star). If you're buying stock, or drafting young baseball players, and your current portfolio has a hole in it, you much wiser to go for very good potential, moderate cost, low risk. That's how Warren Buffet became so wealthy, that's how the Cardinals are upgrading their portfolio in the entire system, top to bottom. The fact that 26 teams passed on Porcello validates that his risk/reward ratio did not merit a pick at #18.
  7. Kozma projects to be a very good ML SS, substantially better than David Eckstein (whom I like very much, but who is no Ozzie nor a Renterria). Kozma hits very well (.522 AVG, only one K in the regular season), he has some power (led his team in HR with 11), some speed (led his team in SB with 14), reportedly has the character, dedication and ability to handle pressure needed in MLB (he rose to the occasion in the playoffs this year to hit 4 HR, including a HR for the only run in his team's championship game.

by CardsWin on Jun 8, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No they aren't
If anyone at VeB can honestly say that they've personally seen these players beyond the scouting blurbs and videos - then I will put more weight into your opinions.

I didn't need to scout Frank Thomas to know that he wasn't a good fit for this ballclub this offseason.  The war room is doing a good job of discrediting Kozma already, with the most encouraging quote being that he is comparable to Nomar at this stage of his development (Nomar's bat was the big question about him in high school, all the way up until his third year as a pro when he turned things around) and with further quotes comparing him to Jack Wilson and Skip Schumaker.  Those scouting reports stating that his upside was Mark Loretta seem positively glowing in retrospect.

The Cardinals do not have any SS prospects in their system that project to be at least average or above average across all 5 essential tools.

And they still don't.  Kozma's power is very much in question.

The Cardinals have the weakest SS-2B combo in the NL offensively and a below average middle infield defensively, not good for a team that teaches it's pitchers to induce ground balls.

Nope, they have been exactly league average as a pair thus far by UZR.  Of course, that's a very small sample size, so perhaps we should go with 2004-2007 data, where they combine for +21 runs above average per 150 games.

The Reds and Twins had their eyes on Kozma, according to Baseball America. The Twins might have picked Kozma at #28, the Reds at #34, per BA, so there was a real risk Kozma would be gone by the time the Cardinals took their pick at #36.

And then we would have only had one of the consensus three best talents in the draft instead of the next Jack Wilson.  Wow, we dodged a bullet there.

by cpebbles on Jun 8, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how do you know this guy's destiny is jack wilson?
there's simply zero basis for that statement, other than the opinion of one unnamed source in the cards' war room --- somebody who might or might not have supported the selection.

jack wilson was a 9th-round pick, the 258th overall selection --- and he was a 20-year-old college junior when selected. he wasn't drafted at all out of high school. so at age 18, jack wilson was on nobody's radar --- while pete kozma at age 18 is at worst a top-50 talent.

it's very pat, and very easy, to dismiss this guy as the next jack wilson, but that's an unconvincing comparison and one with no evidence to support it --- only one person's off-the-cuff opinion. i want to see this guy play before i decide that he's as bad as wilson.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unbelievable
I love this.  ESPN goes and televises the MLB draft and now it's the NFL all over again.  Keith Law is Mel Kiper minus the hair.

NOBODY knows for sure about high school players.  What were you saying about Rasmus when we drafted him 1st last year?  Did you pay attention or care?  

Your Frank Thomas argument makes no sense in this context.  He's a DH, not a high school SS with a full ride to Wichita ST.  That and I'd bet that most of us have personally seen the guy play.

There is absolutely zero reasons to be upset about the draft at this time.  Zip.  In 3 years, if Kozma doesn't pan out as a SS and Colby Rasmus and Ottavino are absolute busts - then you can make an argument about Luhnow's drafts.

Otherwise - as I stated previously, forgive me if I take less than zero stock into your opinion.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

edit
"there is zero reason"

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just because no one knows for sure
doesn't mean that people can't have some informed opinions.  You use what's available to you -- scouting reports, draft watchers like KG and baseball america -- for the time being.  This idea that we are absolutely 100% in the dark is misleading, imo.

For someone who gives us best guess medical updates (which I'm always appreciative of) based on not seeing actual Xrays and MRIs you're awfully dismissive of other peoples ideas today.  I'm not saying that everyone should have out the torches and shovels for a witch hunt but I think its pretty clear that the Cardinals did not pursue what were regarded as difficult to sign players even if they were the most talented player.  Goold, in the comments of his Luhnow interview, says much the same thing.

by azruavatar on Jun 8, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never disagreed with you
on the fact that Cardinals avoided going after the expensive, hard to sign Boras clients.

The majority of the other 29 MLB teams did the same.

I'm dismissive of those who rip on the players that the Cardinals DID take - based on vague, opinionated scouting reports which have a track history of being unreliable.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

all scouting is subjective
what makes you say it has "track history of being unreliable".  That sounds like a total assertion to me.

I don't think it's impossible to make informed statements about prospects at this point.  Are they going to be 100% dead on? no.  Is it time to crucify the front office? no.  Is there a happy middle ground w/ reasonable opinions? yes.

by azruavatar on Jun 8, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I think that the interview with DG was a very worthwhile read.  Good stuff in there from Lunhow.  I am much more positive about our picks now...even taking only some of what he said as positive (he glowed about all of the picks, which is what he is paid to do...)

Anyway, VeB people...good job the last few days on keeping the fans updated on everything going on.

stlfan

by stlfan on Jun 8, 2007 10:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Larry is right on as usual
As usual Larry is right on.  The Cardinals' took organization guys.  They drafted durable pitchers who keep the ball on the ground and seem amiable to pitching to contact.  Why take a strikeout pitcher when the organization doesn't want strikeout pitchers.  Even though Reyes might be the most talented pitcher the Cards have, look at the headaches that he has caused the Cards' staff because he doesn't pitch to contact and feel comfortable with the 2 seamer.  It works for the Patriots, they don't always take the "sexiest" pick, but they take guys that fit their system and it his hard to argue with the Pats' success.

http://whiteyball.wordpress.com

by whiteyball on Jun 8, 2007 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I have always agreed
with your assesment of Reyes.  They have said there is NO starting pitching out there.  And there Anthony sits in the minors.  Tony has been credited in the past for getting the most out of his players.......not the case with Reyes.  I just don't get what management is thinking.  I'll say it again-you got to question their judgement when they see more upside in Wells and Wellemeyer.  And if they really can't handle a pitcher that's "different" are they really as good as everyone says they are?  They have a terrible track record with young pitchers-the only homegrown starter is Brad Thompson.  He's looking like he'll be barely good enough for the 5 spot.  They will trade Reyes and he will be a good 3-4 starter for someone else.  Honestly, they would rather do that than admit they are wrong.  How long before folks quit following this team-they happily take our money and don't give a damn about who they trot out on the field.

by jillsinmo on Jun 8, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

WS
The cardinals won the world series last year, what more can you ask for?

by billyhoyel on Jun 8, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they wouldn't have won it
without reyes' game 1 performance

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a bold statement
and a complete disservice to what you think Chris Carpenter could have done had he been given another chance in Game 6.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 8, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreeing and Disagreeing
I agree with Boros with regards to the importance of Reyes' Game 1 win.  It was the critical game of the series, no doubt.

With regard to whether the Cardinals are safe or not--I think it's a dodge to contend that the Cards aren't "safe" because they "put their credibility at stake."  

It's not credibility that the Cardinals guard so carefullly.  It's the cash.  And once again, the Cardinals have been unwilling to risk cash for talent.

Nothing Luhnow said refutes the fact that Porcello was the most talented player available when the Cardinals' first pick came up.  And the Cardinals declined Porcello--not for superior talent, and not even to protect a player they feared would be grabbed--but because they deemed Porcello too great a risk of not providing a return on the investment.  

Obviously, I can't predict whether Porcello will produce net returns, but surely this form of averson to risk qualifies as playing it safe.  

The Cardinals explicitly chose the player who caused them to expose less money to risk.  Frankly, it's a little depressing when your team's parsimony extends even to drafting propects.  

At some point, the Cardinals cannot content themselves with finding diamonds in the rough.  At some point, they have to compete with the other teams in the league to acquire well-recognized talent.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 8, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

then what about the dodgers
who passed up porcello for chris withrow, a high school right-hander who was rated well behind porcello on nearly everybody's board. withrow went at #20, two picks after kozma and 7 before porcello.

what about the white sox, who could have had porcello at #25 but instead chose a raw college pitcher, aaron poreda, who everybody had behind porcello?

those are large-market teams with postseason expectations. are they cheapskates, too?

the large-market phillies also passed on porcello at #19 and chose a college pitcher. the giants passed on porcello at #22 and took a lesser high-school right-hander. the free-spending rangers passed on him at #24 and took a high-school two-way player.

i just have a hard time calling the cardinals cheap for making the same decision that five other organizations (with at least as much $$$ at their disposal) made after st louis picked, viz.: porcello is amazingly talented, but he's asking for too much money.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point.
There's a difference between refusing to pay market rates (cheap), and refusing to pay premium rates.

Perhaps this is what Luhnow meant by his cryptic reference to being "good citizens:"

With the high school players though, after a certain point it takes a lot of money to convince these guys not to go to school. That does become a consideration. We're trying to be a good citizens and stick to our budget and do all the things that will ultimately help stabilize the economics of the draft and we did.
So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 8, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lboros
you seem to be real vague on the kozma pick.  He wasn't considered a 1st round talent.  He doesn't have any exceptional tools per available scouting material.  

Even if Porcello wasn't an option due to $$$, do you think Kozma was really the best choice for the Cardinals?

by azruavatar on Jun 8, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i have no basis for knowing
i've never seen him play --- nor ahrens, main, withrow, schmidt, porcello, middlebrooks, smoker, borbon, or any of the other players who would generally have been considered more "worthy" of the #18 pick.

to the extent i have any opinion at all, it's because i read something that kevin goldstein or jim callis or somebody like that said --- and while i respect those guys as pros, i also respect the pros who are working for the cardinals. if the opinion of the cardinals' pros differs from the opinion of Baseball America's pro and Baseball Prospectus' pro and ESPN's pro . . . . which opinion do i believe? i don't know --- none of these professionals is right 100 percent of the time, and frankly i have no idea whether goldstein makes better judgments than callis, nor whether either one of them makes better judgments than the scouts and development executives they critique.

that would make an interesting study.

bottom line: i have no opinion about whether kozma was the right pick or the best pick, because i know almost nothing about the players who were available to them. everything i know, i know from BA or BP or a source like that --- that's useful information, but in my opinion it's not gospel truth. i do know that the cardinals' farm system is in better shape since this team took over control. so they have earned some credit in my book.

regarding porcello --- even the cardinals' own people acknowledge that he's got a better talent profile than kozma, but by their own admission they weren't willing to pay the price. fine; that's their decision, and that's their reason. several other organizations made the same determination. now the proof will be in the putting. if this draft doesn't produce some decent players, and doesn't continue the overall upward trend in the farm system, the critics will have been proven out. but at this point, nothing is proven --- at least, not to me.

those who follow amateur baseball and scouting more closely than i, and who are better informed than i, might feel confident doling out criticism right now. but if that criticism is based solely on the opinions of kevin goldstein, john sickels, jim callis, et al --- well, then i'm still skeptical. it has yet to be proven that those guys are better judges of talent than the cardinals' scouting team.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who knows
if there would have been a game 6 w/o Reyes in game 1
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 8, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

WS
Whether or not that is true, I wouldn't quit following the team because of mgmt's dealing with 1 player after the year prior they accomplished the goal of winning a championship. They're doing things right, apparently.

by billyhoyel on Jun 8, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK
If you go by that logic, then the Cardinals should stive to make more deals like the one that dumped Haren for Mulder.

by Robb on Jun 8, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Confirms my feeling
What Luhnow says in this interview, to me, confirms my suspicions - they didn't take Porcello because of money. He was the best guy on their board, but they didn't take him because they didn't want to put up the money to sign him. And in my opinion, that's very disappointing.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jun 8, 2007 10:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Isn't he a Boras client?
That means signability issues.  Just because you draft him doesn't mean he has to sign w/ you and if he doesn't, then you basically wasted a draft pick.  So money isn't the only issue.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 8, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what?
how is "signability" lingo for anything other than, "it will probably cost a lot of money to sign this guy"?

i don't think it's a situation like with eli, where he didn't want to go to the chargers, period. the fact that he's a boras guy, and talented, just means he's going to want more money than kozma. and that's why the cards didn't draft him. signability = money. same thing, and yes, the only issue.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jun 8, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

After this offseason debacle...
with Weaver, and other Boras clients, there was no way the Cardinals were selecting a top Boras client in this draft. I have a feeling you won't see the Cardinals dealing with Boras for quite some time if they can help it.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 8, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right
about signability = money.  Sorry for my imprecise word choice.  But I was thinking more about what JD Drew (a Boras client) did after the Philies drafted him.  He went back to college and re-entered the draft the next year.  What did the Phillies get for not signing him?  That is a real question, not trying to be snarky or anything, because I don't know how (or if) they were compensated the next year.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 8, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On Boras
Dayn Perry at Foxsports was not keen on the Kozma signing and said the Cards should have gone for Porcello.  But some of his reasoning was a little mystifying:

"Overall, Kozma projects as a utility-infielder type in the majors. That's useful, but it's not first-round stuff. With the Cardinals' resources and solid relationship with Scott Boras, there was really no reason to pass on Rick Porcello."

We have a solid relationship with Boras?  I did not know that.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6900032

by ncgostl on Jun 8, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

see the posts above
regarding the new rules. the cards would get an extra draft pick as compensation.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jun 8, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't bitch too much about Porcello
In the end it comes down to what do you think the odds are that you hit on this guy. With a $10 million asking price, you would probably take that chance if there's a 50% chance that his arm falls off and a 50% chance that he turns in 2-3 All-Star seasons in the 6 years that you control him. But what if those odds are 80% flameout/20% All-Star instead, suddenly you've got a much more difficult call. As far as the picks that we did make, well, Luhnow is going to come out looking like either a genius or an idiot, we'll find out which one in 2-3 years.

by mikedallas23 on Jun 8, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forgot to add
That I do wish that the Cards would spend more money on player development, I would just rather sign 7-8 Kyle Russell types for $1-1.5 million each than bet it all on one guy like Porcello.

by mikedallas23 on Jun 8, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chicago Trib points out that this draft
went similar to drafts of the last several years.

Many, many teams passed on Boras clients but the Tigers didn't.   The Tigers are willing to spend cash on what they consider bigtime draftpicks.  

One ESPN guy calls him a "Franchise arm" but how knows?  

I didn't know that Porcello has committed to attend North Carolina.  

by sdrone on Jun 8, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With the "signing deadline"
set for August 15th, will there be considerable hype throughout MLB over the picks who don't sign, and go back into next year's draft? Yeah, I know teams will get "sandwich" picks for players that don't sign... but it seems to me that you're taking a real "flyer" drafting any Boras client with your #1 pick. The Tigers may have figured, "what the hell, if we don't sign Porcello, we've still got a lot of young pitching; if we sign him, maybe we hit the jackpot."

In my opinion, the "success" of this year's draft will come in today's rounds... drafting enough good players increases the chances that one or two of them will make it all the way to the bigs.

I gave up on the ESPN telecast immediately after the Cards' pick. Did the Cardinals ever turn Keith Law down for a job or something? That guy never has anything good to say about the organization... who messed in his kit?

It's a beautiful day for a ballgame!

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 8, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re: pick for not signing a player
The draft rules have changed this year in the first round.  If you draft a guy and don't sign him at say pick #18, in the next year you get to pick right after the #18 pick.  That, to me, makes it easier to gamble on a guy like Porcello. If you don't sign him you have basically deferred your pick one year.

The new rules even give you a compensation pick at the end of third round if you don't sign a third-round pick. That is what really bothers me about the Cardinals not stepping up to pick Harvey at that point.

by nmstar on Jun 8, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

some notable 2d-day picks
of the last couple drafts:

2005
nick stavinoha (7th rd)
adam daniels (15th rd)
shawn garceau (20th rd)
jaime garcia (22d rd)
kenny maiques (3th rd)

2006
allen craig (8th rd)
pj walters (11th rd)
jonathan edwards (14th rd)
tommy pham (16th rd)
amaury marti (18th rd)
luke gregerson (28th rd)

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

New rules
One factor that would mitigate against taking a risk on a player with the fall back that you get a similar pick next year is the fact that this year was a very solid crop of players.  Next year's group may not have such high quality and then a similar spot results in less of a player.  Shouldn't be the primary concern, but it's something to consider.

by awpierce on Jun 8, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true statement, but...
I think it is difficult to tell how the next year's draft class will turn out. I mean Luhnow said in the interview that he almost took Mortenson with the 18 pick and the guy wasn't even drafted last year and he was eligible!

This year's draft was regarded, from what I have read, as an above average  class. If next year's class is below average maybe you are a getting a pick 10 or 15 picks below what you had the previous year at worst.  

I think the bigger issue in not signing the guy is not getting the year of development.  Just my $.02

by nmstar on Jun 8, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does seem to hate the Cards, doesn't he
Prime example - what he wrote about them during the WS.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 8, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone think
That Tony and Dunc are worried that Reyes would lose 20 games if he spent the entire season here and that would have a negative mental impact on his development? I'm not saying I believe that the case. But those two are known for mind games. Perhaps they are over thinking this one.

by 10worldchamps on Jun 8, 2007 10:56 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That loss in Memphis last night was
downright disgusting.  That bullpen isn't very good but Castellanos and Falkenborg couldn't get outs to save their lives last night.  I'd be pissed losing that game if I was Reyes.

He only needed 100 pitches to get through 7 innings.  I certainly don't know but after reading Dyar Miller's comments from a few days ago, I just have to wonder if Reyes is throwing any 2-seam fastballs.  

by azruavatar on Jun 8, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Reyes
Reyes threw 66 of those 100 pitches for strikes and had 9 ground outs to go with 5 fly outs in facing 26 batters. The line was 7.0 IP, 7 hits, 2 ER, 2 BB and 6 K.

Doesn't specify 2-seamers, but with the ground-outs, it's possible he's working on the pitch. You'd have to think, more outings like this and he'll have to get called back up at some point. Especially after Wells loses another 5 or 10.

by jomfa on Jun 8, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The game was in Albuquerque
not that it excuses the bullpen...

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 8, 2007 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're right -- misspoke
the Memphis Game.  I even remember thinking about that since they blew it with a walkoff HR.

by azruavatar on Jun 8, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Draft 101
I've never posted before, but I had to get this off my chest:

I understand the value per dollar approach teams sometimes take in the draft, but what I don't understand is how Luhnow and Co. could have simply missed the new rules on draft picks.  Given that Kozma is a safe sign who isn't worth the 18th pick and Russell is a tough sign who is worth roughly the 18th pick, it makes a lot more sense to draft Russell 18th than Kozma.  If they don't sign Russell now, they get nothing.  If had drafted him 18th, they would get an 18A (19th) pick next year.  This draft is exactly like their safe (and poor) drafts in the late 90's.  What happened to new thinking and taking advantage of the rules?

Tony LaRussa- resident genius

by putmeincoach on Jun 8, 2007 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sounds
like they wanted Kozma, didn't think he'd be available later.  

by awpierce on Jun 8, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's not as if they knew ahead of time
that they'd be drafting russell in the 4th round . . . . they probably assumed he'd be gone by then. when he was still on the board at pick #142, he was too good a value to pass up, so they drafted him.

makes more sense to me this way: they make sure they get a decent return on the #1 pick, and they gamble with a high risk / high reward on a lesser pick. seems logical to me.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They wanted Kozma..
and they were convinced he'd go 21st to the Jays.

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Completely False
<<This draft is exactly like their safe (and poor) drafts in the late 90's.>>

The Cards in the late 90's were among the BEST teams in baseball in drafting.

Goold's recent bolg talks about the USA Today Sports Weekly and the Cards results in drafting rounds 1 to 5 for the last ten years. The Cards were #6 in games played and #15 in innings pitched, hardly "poor" results.

And when you factor in the USA Today did not extend beyond the 5th round, they left out the best player in baseball, drafted in the 13th round in 1999. They were number 6 in games played WITHOUT Albert; they are number 2 overall (for the period of drafts from 1995 to 2005, with stats to the end of 2005) with Albert.

So what fans perceive to be true about the Cards' drafts and the actual results are like night and day. The Cards in the time under Walt have been one of the MOST productive teams in baseball at producing performance at the major league level.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Jun 8, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You must not get the USA Today sports weekly
I do.  The article you reference is not limited to the first five rounds and in the Cardinal section it mentions that the Cards' middling results (13th, IIRC) would be extremely poor but for the home run they hit with Pujols.
Kennedy, Ankiel, Drew, Duncan, Molina are fine players produced through those drafts.  Ankiel, Drew and Duncan were all "over-slot" players signed for big money and Kennedy was a successful  and cheap first rounder.  Care to guess at how all the safe (cheap) players from those teams fared?
I look at Kozma as the same type of pick as Kennedy- which isn't horrible, but it only makes sense if you don't factor in the new rule.
Tony LaRussa- resident genius

by putmeincoach on Jun 8, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe that is wrong to recall Reyes...
... just because he sucks a little bit less the Wells. At this point I am convinced that either he improves to far better than Wells, and this is a good reason to recall him, or he will be traded. The way Duncan & LaRussa are acting, it seems to me that they really believe in Reyes and trust in his potential, while Wells, in this moment, goes out there essentially to eat innings. They had to select someone to send down to improve, they put a reliever dumped by KC in the rotation to do this, and for who did they do this?

I hope Reyes rewardes them the way he is showing in his two past starts.

GO CARDS!!!!

by SuperSeve on Jun 8, 2007 11:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A different perspective from Hardcore Legend?
In one of the last posts last night, Hardcore Legend said that "Reyes was unimpressive tonight in Memphis".  I just wanted to ask Hardcore Legend to say more about that since it seems to offer a different perspective than the posts this morning about Reyes' game last night.  I was especially interested in the comment about minor league performance not necessarily translating well to major league performance.

Thanks!

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 11:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

maybe
instead of questioning the cheapness of this organization (which has become increasingly obvious), we should begin to question the ability to evaluate talent.  I am really disappointed in the way the first day of the draft was handled but I am trying my best to give the picks a fair shot at earning my respect, maybe they will turn out to be good selections, I don't know.  What I can't get over though is how high they are placing value on some of these picks while overlooking others.  I hope there is some rhyme to there reason.

by Jtip20 on Jun 8, 2007 12:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

perhaps
The performance-based analysis of the Reyes situation is too rational. Is there any possibility that Reyes and LaRussa or Duncan really don't like each other? Even with guys known for using their heads it wouldn't be the first time (a) boss(es) let emotion overrule data.

by slochaos on Jun 8, 2007 12:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree with you
i think reyes does not have the type of personality dave / tony like.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By that, I take it you mean
young and cocky?
So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 8, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

esp cocky
young and "yessir," they can abide. young and "hey dude," not so much.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that beg's the question
Where does Ankiel reside in that scenario?  He struck me as more of a cocky guy than a 'yessir' type.  Tony/Dave have never shown more allegiance to anyone.
I think Reyes may have a know-it-all aloofness that may rub them the wrong way.
"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jun 8, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

speaking of which ....
did Ankiel throw a 2-seamer? I honestly don't remember.
Call up Ankiel!!

by jeff abs on Jun 8, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel had a plus-plus curveball
so he could get his groundouts that way.

by Valatan on Jun 8, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not just larussa and/or duncan
but perhaps the whole team...could there be more to reyes' inability to get any run support every time he pitches than just bad luck?  i mean this kid tosses a CG 1-hitter last year and still gets the loss...maybe the chemistry just there

by MarcGldstn on Jun 8, 2007 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we aren't looking
Big picture on Reyes. After reading a couple of interviews. I don't know if Duncan is saying that Reyes has to throw the two-seamer as much as he's saying that he has to have a another pitch. That I can see why they might send him down. A starter needs more than two pitches....now if LaDuncan are just saying he needs to throw the two-seamer and stick their fingers in their ears saying Two-seamer over and over...well I got nothing.

Just think if all Cardinals were evaluated with the same yard stick Reyes has been.

On another note Pujols is over 900 OPS...and if you look last 30 days the MV3 look like it's 2004 again. Just don't look at Duncan.

by Harknights on Jun 8, 2007 1:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

but they're not saying
the two-seamer can be just "another pitch" for reyes ---- ie, something he throws as an auxiliary pitch, to give batters another look. he can already throw it as "another pitch." they want it to be a primary pitch, a major part of his game. they want him to have the ability to get groundballs when there are men on base.

and he's just not a groundball pitcher.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would say a lot about
a lack of professionalism.  It doesn't matter if you don't like your co-workers-you STILL do your job.  Anthony NEVER looked like he put in anything but his best effort, and it's hard to even contemplate that his teammates wouldn't do the same.  Right after he was sent down, Al H. was talking about how Anthony was in his own little world.  He gave an a example that someone asked him about a football game.  He replied that he didn't watch football.  Wow- I thought he was grasping at straws with that comment.  He doesn't watch football-and says so-and this is something to criticize him for?  You know, he wears those socks showing, his cap has a flat bill, he works so hard in his drills that he was called "Mr. Perfect" and he's from California, he surfs, he went to a real academic AND sports school for college and he majored in one of those weird things-sociology.  We don't care if he can pitch--we don't like him.  Guess what-good management gets the best out of their workers wether they like them or not.  No matter how they try to justify their handling of this, it PROVES they are not the geniuses they want you to believe they are. They cannot admit that they were wrong---they are arrogant enough to believe it can't even be true.  And guess what--Dyar Miller has had no problems working with him, and he didnot have a reputation as a bad actor until the 2-seam 4-seam problem started.  And I will say again-Anthony has handled himself with dignity by making NO COMMENTS to the press.  He could really blow this thing up by picking up the phone, and he hasn't done that.  Free Anthony Reyes!

by jillsinmo on Jun 8, 2007 1:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A few thoughts
Porcello isn't getting 10 million.  No chance.  Andrew Miller had floated "8 figures" out there last year too, he didn't come close to that.  Stephen Drew was looking for JD Drew plus interest.  Jered Weaver/Hochevar seeking Mark Prior money.  Max Scherzer was looking for 6+ mil.  What an agent says a player will cost isn't ever what a player will cost.  If and when Porcello signs for what has become the standard top-of-the draft deal: 5.5ish mil, I'm not going to be happy.

Ick, out of time, more later.

Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on Jun 8, 2007 1:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd ALMOST
be willing to wager cash money American that Porcello doesn't sign... remember, the Tigers only have until August 15 to sign him; and Boras is perfectly willing to have his clients go back into the draft, in hopes of raising their eventual signing price. (Porcello does have a college scholarship for next year, if he doesn't sign with the Tigers.)

Other clubs with better "revenue streams" than the Cardinals passed on Porcello, too... but it'll be at least five years before anybody knows whether that was a mistake, or not!

It's a beautiful day for a ballgame!

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 8, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's an article up
Over at the hardball times that looks at first-round high school pitchers drafted from 1996-2000 and the likelyhood that they will make it to the big leagues.  Executive summary:  only 50% even make it to AAA, and only 38% of first-round high school pitchers make it to the big leagues.  Only 16% (8/50) pitched more than 100 innings in the majors.  

76% of those in Porcello's category (high velocity right-handed pitchers) made it past AA, but they don't say how many made it to the majors.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 1:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Porcello...
is on the high end of the probability scale to make it to the majors.

On the other hand, signing him to a major league contract forces an accelerated schedule and could hurt him.

I don't see why everyone is approaching this as a cheapness issue. Many teams passed on this guy and took someone of lesser talent. Is everyone cheap?

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

accelerated schedule
guayzimi--you mentioned this acceleration issue yesterday, and I was wondering whether you can explain it a bit.  Is it that Boras is insisting on a major league contract, and that a major league contract requires being on the 40 man roster by a certain point in time?  Thanks.

by ncgostl on Jun 8, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah that's my understanding...
actually the player would go on the 40-man as soon as he signs. Prior to the draft Boras said Harvey and Porcello, among others, would insist on major league contracts. Once they're on the 40-man the options clock starts, which means they have to be on the active roster by opening day 2010, unless they get an additional year which I think is possible in case of injury, and possibly other circumstances. Otherwise they have to pass through waivers and so forth.

Few others seem to care too much about this, but to me, it seems like something that should be a real consideration. I mean, these are high school kids. The SLOWEST acceptable development timetable would be rookie ball or A ball this year, high A or AA next year, then a year of AAA, then onto the show.  If the kid struggles or is injured and can't be a major league starter by 2010, what does the big league team do? Put him in the back of the bullpen like a rule 5 project? That's not a good way to develop a young starter.

Sure Tim Lincecum and Verlander and others have raced through in a year or less, but they're the exceptions... Look at Wainwright. He was a high school kid picked exactly in Porcello's slot in 2000 - granted he wasn't nearly as heralded - but only now in 2007 has he surfaced as a starter.

They're might be some exceptions to the options clock I'm not aware of, but I don't think you can get any more than four option years max, and in most cases it's three.

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
Once you lay it out, it's clear that this needs to be a big part of the calculation. Spend millions of dollars, tie up a 40 roster slot, and then hope the kid can merit the active roster in 3 years' time? Very few players will ever have that trajectory. That's a big risk.

by ncgostl on Jun 8, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just for reference
a h.s. pitcher who was drafted in 2003 and signed to a big-league deal would have used up his last option in 2006; he would be out of options this season.

only two high-school pitchers from the 2003 draft are currently in the majors: chad billingsley, who was taken #24 overall, and the mariners' ryan feierabend, a 3d-rounder.

billingsley is currently being used as a middle reliever. the other guy has made 2 starts this year.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This isn't the NFL
SleepyCA's post illustrates the fact that VERY FEW of these players will ever make The Bigs, especially among HS pitchers like Porcello.  Luhnow's reasoning in Bernie's article is perfectly rational: They weren't willing to drop $10 mil for a guy with a 16% chance of pitching 100 MLB innings.

And I don't understand yesterday's posts lamenting the Kozma/Mark Loretta comp.  Just a little over half of first-round picks even make it to the big leagues.  So we will be very lucky if our #1 develops into Loretta, who by the way is a 13-year veteran middle infielder, two-time All-Star with a .299 career AVG.

Even the NFL draft, with all it's hoopla and much easier-to-project talent is largely a crap shoot.  Baseball is that crap shoot x100.  Whether you're Jeff Luhnow or the brain trust at Baseball America, comparing a HS shortstop from Iowa City and a college pitcher from Wake Forrest is damn near impossible.

by bgodar on Jun 8, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greg Peavey
Greg Peavey is still on the board, take him!

by KeepOnRolen on Jun 8, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Young Pitchers
Although there's justifiably been a lot of focus on Reyes since he's been sent down to AAA, I think other questions should be raised about how well LaRussa and Duncan manage young players.  Some of these questions revolve around Wainwright.

When Wainwright was with the Atlanta Braves, their managers said in 2005 that he had great promise but needed to be handled with some care because he had a history of elbow and shoulder soreness that could easily lead to injury if he was overextended.  The Cards have known this all along about Wainwright.  And yet, in his second outing they made him throw 114 pitches to finish the 7th inning because they feared their bullpen at that time.  Wainwright had pitched beautifully in spring training and at the beginning of the season.  After that game, as we all know, he began to have difficulties.  Since he said his arm has recovered, he's pitched well again (except for last night, which I hope was just an off night for him and not an indication that he has arm soreness again).  In any case, the decision to make a new pitcher with a known history of elbow and shoulder soreness/injuries throw 114 pitches his second time out shows either extreme carelessness or complete ignorance about how young arms, especially arms prone to injury, should be gradually conditioned.

Second, it was Jim Edmonds and not the coaches who identified what was wrong with Wainwright's delivery after his soreness cleared up.  After Edmonds spoke with Wainwright between innings and told him to concentrate on not rushing his delivery, Wainwright's pitching changed dramatically.  The fact that LaRussa and Duncan couldn't see this simple problem--he needed to slow down his delivery-- tells me that they are not good at coaching young players. Maybe we should have Edmonds work more with young players since he seems to have more luck with them!  

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 2:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree completely
I pick up on a vibe, whether it's there or not, that Tony and Dave don't like the younger players.  Dave has show he can work wonders with (some) veteran, otherwise washed-up pitchers.

But young player development would seem to require different skills, and I just don't think Dave is good at it.

So, um... Jim Edmonds for pitching coach?

Free Anthony Reyes!

by sgfcards on Jun 8, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

saw this
in an article on the Cardinals portion of MLB.com:

With four converted relievers in their starting rotation, the Cards have seen their starting pitcher go deeper than seven innings just once this season. Brad Thompson went 7 1/3 innings in Colorado on May 31.

The full article is here.

My reaction was:  Huh?  Can this be right?  Only once in 57 games did the starter take the hill in the 8th inning?  I guess it goes hand-in-hand with lboros chart at the top of the article, as well as the 5 games under .500 record.  Anybody know how many times a Cardinals starter went out for the 8th inning in 2006?

And regarding the draft:  Keith Hernandez, 42nd round draft pick in 1971, co-MVP in 1979.  It's not all about the first rounders.  Maybe they missed with Kozma, maybe not.  If they did, let's hope they have truer aim in subsequent rounds.

I'm with the rest of you that haven't seen Kozma play.  I did watch the MLB.com scouting tape on him after he was picked -- the kid looks sturdy.  I'm willing to give the front office the benefit of the doubt on this one.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jun 8, 2007 3:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

when your bullpen
is as good as ours has been, it makes sense to pull the starter a little sooner.  We've been really lucky so far with our bullpen's performance.
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last year's stats
I couldn't find this post once I found the information you were asking about.  I have posted the information about Carpenter and Suppan below.  Our pitchers compare well with Suppan last year and this year in terms of innings pitched.  I have posted the full information below.

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting from Keith Law
Someone asked about Mark Hamilton.

1B Mark Hamilton is tearing the cover off the ball. What's his potential?

Keith Law
Above-average bat at first, .280/.360/.500 type of guy, maybe a little more power if it all clicks. I'm pretty high on him, obviously.

by Carps on Jun 8, 2007 4:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Another one
This is from a Will Carrol chat.

I'm always hearing about espn expert x disagreeing with expery y, but him being in the minority. ex: Felix making it through the season. Anyway, is their ANYTHING at all that all the experts are in agreement over?

Will Carroll
That Kip Wells is done.

by Carps on Jun 8, 2007 4:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ouch
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jun 8, 2007 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sweet
look for him to throw a no-hitter tonight ;)
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last years starters compared to this years...
Someone asked earlier about how many innings were pitched by last year's starters (in comparison to our current pitchers).  I thought it was a good question, but I'm in a hurry and can't find that post.  So here's the information:

In 2006, Carpenter averaged 6.9 IP (32 games, 221 IP)
In 2006, Suppan averaged 5.2 IP (36, games, 199 IP)
***Note: by this time last year, Suppan had not gone beyond 7 innings pitched.

So everyone but Wellemeyer seems to be keeping up with Suppan's average from last year.  

Also, going beyond 7 innings was not that common:  Suppan only completed 8 innings four times during the season and Carp completed 8 innings six times (he finished 9 innings four times in the later part of the season, but he's a horse).

I also wanted to note something abouth earned runs. Many fans seem to think the world is ending when we allow 4 runs or more and that our rotation is doomed.  This year, I believe Suppan has allowed 4 or more earned runs 6 times.  Looper, Wainwright, and Thompson all have better records than that (I don't know Reyes' numbers), at least in terms of that measurement.  

In 2006, Carpenter had allowed more than 4 ER in four games by about this time of the season (between 4 and 7 ER in those games).  He allowed 4 or more ER in twelve games during the entire season.  In 2006, Suppan allowed 4 or more earned runs in ten games during the entire season (between 4 and 9 earned runs in those games).  

Let's just give our young players a chance to settle in.  Their arms aren't as conditioned as Suppan's and Carpenter's were and they aren't doing too badly when you compare the numbers.

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 5:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with a lot of what I read above
It's very, very hard to successfully project talent to the majors.  How many AA guys are highly regarded for a while, but flame out in AAA or have trouble sticking?  Isn't the probability of something going wrong about 100x more complicated projecting from high school to the majors?  

Scouting these guys requires an insane amount of tea leaf reading.  Old scouts brag about having a tenth of their recommendations reach the majors.  Blowing up at the organization before a single one of these guys has played an inning of professional ball is slightly premature.

by Valatan on Jun 8, 2007 5:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

bullpen help
Just saw this article that says the Cards are close to a deal with Troy Percival.

I find this move kinda strange with how solid the pen has been so far.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2898087

...and sometimes it rains...

by capeboda on Jun 8, 2007 5:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think it's just what we need
...we have all new starters this year and they will probably range between 5 and 7 innings per game.  Plus, when Carp and Moulder come back, they may have to take it easy as well.  We need some good long relief (beyond AAA fill-ins) to keep our rotation afloat for the whole season.

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm
Could they be thinking Percival for the 8th and move Franklin to the rotation?

by punditmoi on Jun 8, 2007 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does this
allow a move of Franklin to the rotation?

I'd think so...if they believe he can be a solid 8th inning guy.

We'll see.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 8, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks lboros...
I had similar feelings about people's reaction to the Kozma pick.  You certainly expressed it better than I think I could have.  While I respect the fact almost everyone here knows more about these players than I do and I certainly don't have the basis for an opinion judging those two players, in principal I would rather see the courageous move you highlighted, than caving into the Boras-hype whirlpool.  Again, I'm not making any judgement about the value of either player or the intelligence of the move, but I will follow Kozma with interest.

by 1985kid on Jun 8, 2007 6:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Parcival signing official
Bernie said that the Troy Percival signing is official and that he's going to Memphis to start on his comback.  So he won't offer immediate relief, but hopefully, we'll be able to bring him up to the majors soon.

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 6:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Percival to the rotation!
Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on Jun 8, 2007 6:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

pride cometh before a fall
if Tony,Dave and  Anthony don't stop being so stubborn and pridefull, Anthony may never reach his full potential. both parties need to come toghether for the common good. and that's helping the Cards win baseball games. the rotation is a JOKE. no WS winner has EVER in the history of the game had such a pathetic excuse for their starting rotation following a WS win. Anthony NEEDS to be in the STL rotation. they cant win without him. Tony&Dave shouldn't not work with the kid just because he's cocky. and Anthony needs to bend a little on his end. sure he's not a ground ball machine and probably never will be the Duncan loves so much. but no one, and I mean NO ONE wins with Anthony stuck in memphis.

Walt, or the owners need to step in and make them all at least agree to work together. granded you can't make people like each other, but at least they should be able to work together. the owners got Rolen and Tony to talk things out in spring. I'm shocked with the current record the Cards have and the rotation they keep putting out there that they'd let a talent as great as Anthony could be, be sent back to memphis just because of good old stubborn pride.

if the Cards miss the playoffs, fingers need to be pointed right at everyone involved in the Anthony situation. everyone is wrong. Tony, Dave, Walt, the owners, Anthony. and it's high time they all admit it and get back to playing baseball. the brew crew has come back to earth. the division is the Cards for the taking. but they can't take anything with that pathetic rotation.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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