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Around SBN: Pro Combat Goes B1G: Minnesota Edition

Game 58 Open Thread: June 8, 2007, 7:10 CDT

colon

wells

5-2, 5.44

2-10, 6.40

hat tip to truemun: the cards signed troy percival. that gives st louis four members of the angels' 2002 championship squad, joining spiezio kennedy and eckstein; look for the kevin appier signing to occur any day now.

go figure: against teams whose primary uniform color is red (that's cincinnati, houston, and washington), the cardinals are 11-7 this year. they're holding their own against black (6-4) and purple (4-3), but getting absolutely massacred by teams clad in blue: st louis is an abysmal 5-17 against that particular dye. maybe those 6 upcoming games vs the royals won't be so easy after all . . . . .

tonight's angels starter, bartolo colon, missed his last start with tendonitis in the triceps; the two starts prior to that he got killed, yielding 15 runs and 4 homers in 10.2 innings. prior to that, he had reeled off 5 quality starts in 6 outings. kip wells has only had 1 quality start in his last 9 trips to the mound. i know i did this comparison already this morning, but i'm a glutton for punishment; let's put those 9 trips side by side with anthony reyes' 9 starts this season:

GS IP H BB SO HR W-L ERA
reyes  9 50.1 50 18 39  6 0-8 6.08
wells  9 50.1 63 26 32 11 1-8 8.05

whatever. go get'm, kipper.

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so this means
he joins the rotation in a few weeks, right?
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 8, 2007 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Judging by this line from Goold's article...
When Percival joins the big-league team he is expected to be the setup reliever for closer Jason Isringhausen.

I would suspect Ryan Franklin will be the next bullpen arm to get a shot at the rotation... Franklin, at least, has been a starter in MLB before...

It's a beautiful day for a ballgame!

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 8, 2007 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

that'd be a sensible move
let's hope percival is in shape and can get guys out . . . .

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is "great stuff"
worth a tinker's curse if'n ya can't locate it? Here's hoping Kipper says something along the lines of, "ah, to heck with it... just throw the damn ball and hit the freakin' mitt!"

That Colon fellow is sure a handsome dude, ain't he??? (Yeeeesh!!!)

It's a beautiful day for a ballgame!

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 8, 2007 7:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not sure Wells
can remember the last time he had only one loss, and an ERA well south of 3.

I know I can't...

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 8, 2007 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I won't
even speak his name anymore.  not unless he starts stringing together quality starts...
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 8, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kip's numbers/ERA?
I don't think that "1-1, 1.38" is right...even if only against Red uni teams...

I get like an 8.14 ERA in his games against HOU and CIN so far this year...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 8, 2007 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Reyes
His numbers may be better than Wells', but that's not saying much. Furthermore, unlike Wells, they have a long-term investment in him. They can send Reyes down. I doubt that would work with Wells. Reyes may have gotten lousy run support, and yes, he won game one of the WS, but he was still not pitching well, period. I was at the Washington game when, after he benefited from a superb double-play by AP and YM with the bases loaded, he gave up a ground-rule double to their 8th place hitter on the first pitch. Wells has been equally bad in terms of his mental makeup on the mound, but that doesn't mean Reyes' mental makeup is good. Perhaps he got through the WS game as well as he did because he somehow kept runners off base. Once they get on, the floodgates open.

The 2-seam/4-seam debate is probably relevant, but I just can't believe that has everything to do with why he hasn't been more successful.

Reyes may stack up statistically with the other pitchers, but it's misleading to reduce everything down to raw stats when there is the big-picture problem that the Cardinals do not when games when he pitches. Run support was poor for him, but pitching to the game situation has to count for something.

Unlike Wells, Reyes earned himself a few mulligans for his World Series performance ... but he just hasn't been getting it done. I'm not in any hurry for him to come back.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 7:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Let me guess...
You're one of those guys who likes to factor in such things as "knowing how to win" when evaluating pitcher effectiveness?

So Reyes is to blame for the rest of his team NEVER scoring runs when he's on the mound?  Would you say that's caused by his "negative energy" or his "bad karma"?  

Perhaps he just needs to wear a certain crystal around his neck or make regular offerings up to Jobu when he's pitching, right?

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 8, 2007 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly at this point
I think this team is better off if TLR and Duncan go elsewhere after this season.  We need someone that knows how to work with young players instead of crufty old vets.

by DriverZn on Jun 8, 2007 7:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Could the Percival signing be telegraphing a trade
Perhaps the Cardinals are about to deal Franklin or Springer for someone, and Percival is a fill-in...

by Valatan on Jun 8, 2007 7:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Lineups
C. Figgins 3b
O. Cabrera ss
V. Guerrero rf
G. Matthews Jr. cf
C. Kotchman 1b
G. Anderson lf   
H. Kendrick 2b
M. Napoli c
B. Colon p

D. Eckstein ss
C. Duncan lf
A. Pujols 1b
J. Edmonds cf
S. Rolen 3b
J. Encarnacion rf
A. Kennedy 2b
K. Stinnett c
K. Wells p

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 8, 2007 7:55 PM EDT reply actions  

oh for the love of
I'm blacked out.  WTF.

Do they even SHOW angels games on TV in california?  I've never seen one...  guess I get to go flip channels.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 8:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm blacked out too
This is one of the 'extra' games added to the FSN lineup that the Champaign, IL cable company didn't want to pay for.

Looks like I'm off to a watering hole.

by liam on Jun 8, 2007 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

whew
I apparently get FSN West.  never knew that.

Unfortunately it means I have to watch the game on Fox...

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't
there an article about how good of a motivator Bennet was when catching Wells?

Shouldn't he still be in? Or is he still aching?

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 8:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Stinnett
as a former ALer, maybe Stinnett has special knowledge of some of these Angels?
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 8, 2007 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

My opinion on catcher's
They have nothing to do with "how" a pitcher performs. The pitcher can shake them off and throw what he wants and the pitcher is the one actually "pitching" not the catcher.

My $.02

by saladdin69 on Jun 8, 2007 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

way to go kipper
nice to see him work out of a runner on 2nd w/ none out.
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 8, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed
you have no idea how big it was that he got out of that inning. let's hope it's a sign of good things to come.
The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

YEAH DUNK!!!!
The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 8:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice
That's refreshing
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 8:22 PM EDT reply actions  

That foul ball looked like a hit
Good idea trying to go the other way against Colón

by Valatan on Jun 8, 2007 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

umpire cost us a run
calling those 2 balls strikes on pujols.

Am I really seeing 53 mph changeups from Colon?  Is that right, or is the gun screwed?

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 8:29 PM EDT reply actions  

ah,
those crazy kids in the American League...

by davethebutcher on Jun 8, 2007 8:35 PM EDT reply actions  

well
that was some good, basic managing.

by longhornscardinals on Jun 8, 2007 8:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I know he was facing Bartolo Colon,
but KIPPERS H. KIPPERSLEY!!

great double play

by Valatan on Jun 8, 2007 8:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Is it possible ?
to go an entire season without a 2nd baseman hitting a homerun?

by saladdin69 on Jun 8, 2007 8:40 PM EDT reply actions  

10/3/1982
Julo Gonzalez hit the first home run for the 1982 Cardinals from a second baseman in the 14th inning of the last game of the season.

That's freaking amazing.

by liam on Jun 8, 2007 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know nobody will believe me
but I just called that home run.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 8:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Stinnett
Retired the heck out of that ball.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 8, 2007 8:43 PM EDT reply actions  

i am drinking a lot of wine tonight
and hallucinating . . . . . i just had a vision of stinnett hitting a homer.

wild.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 8:44 PM EDT reply actions  

i must be drinking the same wine
because Kip Wells just struck out the top of the Angels order.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 8, 2007 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

so are the producers
but i don't mind that i don't know exactly what's going on in each ab.  it seems to be improving kipper's performance.  as long as jen's been on, he's struck out 2.

by sdesserman on Jun 8, 2007 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

struck out the side!
giver her al's job and send al home with speez.

by sdesserman on Jun 8, 2007 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's the wine
l boros raises another glass to dame spiezio.

to your health, my loooovely.

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

dare
we say we've found a good luck charm?
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Quick
Someone send her a link to YouTube. She needs to see Scotty sing.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Soriano....
3 HR's in 3 at bats so far tonight and it's only the 4th inning.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 8, 2007 8:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Damn kippers
where have you been all my life?
Curse you Endy!!!!!

by boisebird on Jun 8, 2007 8:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Kip, where did that come from!?
It's like he knew Mrs. Spiezio would be in the booth, and did us a favor by getting out of headcase mode so as to make Vlad look like Wilton.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 8, 2007 8:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Also,
So we're clear, she did in fact say "We need to get our hands around [breast cancer]."

... If you say so.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 8, 2007 8:53 PM EDT reply actions  

the only problem is that
the inning went so fast, we were cheated out of face time with the lovely mrs. spiezio.

by sdesserman on Jun 8, 2007 8:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow
Seems they really want to cure prostate cancer.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 8:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Just looking
at Albert's numbers, and has anyone else noticed that when he has an off year he just becomes Carlos Beltran?
Curse you Endy!!!!!

by boisebird on Jun 8, 2007 8:59 PM EDT reply actions  

that is funny
Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 8, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think
it was a poor example of the intentional walk.

by tomsteele on Jun 8, 2007 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, yes.
And that was an ugly pickoff

by Valatan on Jun 8, 2007 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Kip gets out of this
he needs to go on a short leash for the rest of the game.

Just let him stay in line for the win and get the pen out there.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 9:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh boy...
Sacks loaded and here comes Guerrero

by jdubya on Jun 8, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

gameday sez...
Suddenly, "Ball in Dirt" is his favorite pitch.

by tomsteele on Jun 8, 2007 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

sigh
I liked "Ball in Dirt" so much better than "in play, run(s)"...
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

nibble
nibble
nibble
nibble
nibble

by lboros on Jun 8, 2007 9:40 PM EDT reply actions  

He nibbled
but against Vlad - its not nibbling.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed
Better than grooving one to Bad Vlad.

by liam on Jun 8, 2007 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't we trade in this for
Vlad's last AB?
Curse you Endy!!!!!

by boisebird on Jun 8, 2007 9:41 PM EDT reply actions  

this is torture
this is why wells is 2-10. he can't win a game if you give it to him on a platter. what a moron.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I loved the Vlad zone
they had on Sportscenter where it was 3x the size of a normal batters' potential hot zone.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions  

wells sucks
i just had to say it again. 4-0 lead and he walks the leadoff batter. the 8th place leadoff hitter. stupud.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Some of you guys
are inspirations to us all.

I bet Kozma would've turned that into an out.

by liam on Jun 8, 2007 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

'nother tough one
slight hanger - Kotchman was looking for it.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions  

What's sad about it
is everyone here was expecting this very thing.

by saladdin69 on Jun 8, 2007 9:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Whew
We need s'more runs.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:47 PM EDT reply actions  

A crooked number
Would be nice this inning.

Big boys coming up.

by liam on Jun 8, 2007 9:47 PM EDT reply actions  

That was the best job Wells has done
pitching out of trouble.

And he still gives up 3 runs.  Watching it, I have to say that the Vlad AB was a tough one to take - and at least he didn't walk 3 more.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Time
to take Wells out.

Get the bullpen in there.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 9:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Up next
Kenrick, Napoli, Pitcher's spot... Give him a shot to handle them.

by liam on Jun 8, 2007 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kendrick
is one shot too many.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 8, 2007 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

When the SP fails against Cards -
bring in the replacement level lefty to shut 'er down.

Works every time.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:51 PM EDT reply actions  

esp with an umpire
who's in love with his own "strike 3" gesture.

Granted, Albert's second was legit, but dunc's was not.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

painful
he couldn't pull the trigger.

by silent_bob on Jun 8, 2007 9:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Does anyone know if there's a stat related to
variance in runs allowed per inning for a pitcher, indicating susceptibility to the "big inning," and possibly indicating some mental control issues? They could call it the Kip rating. He seems to have a decent number of 0 run innings and a lot more than his share of 3,4,5 run innings.

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 8, 2007 9:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Dare I invoke the name?
At least Marquis was cocky enough to think he could get out of a jam, This guy, who I won't mention folds like a house of cards if the batter looks at him wrong!
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jun 8, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'd rather see weaver again than wells once more
i'd almost rather see reyes again. this is pathetic. even the nationals have starting pitchers than can hold a lead and pitch into the 8th every now and then.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions  

But he is a Vet
That means he must be better than Reyes.

(yes that is sarcastic)

by DriverZn on Jun 8, 2007 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would think...
the Mariners would jump at Wells for Weaver and $2 million.

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 10:07 PM EDT reply actions  

wells for weaver
i'd take that at this point.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Just tuning in..
First of all.. Stinnett.. wow

2nd.. looks like Kip had flashes of excellence tonight.

Lastly.. did Darren Oliver REALLY strike out the side?

by stltrav09 on Jun 8, 2007 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I guess if...
you call getting a few guys out in between lots of nibbling and grooving fastballs, yeah he was excellent at times...

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Figures
I got excited to see he struck out the side.  5 walks though.. yeesh  

by stltrav09 on Jun 8, 2007 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

thank goodness
a walk there would've been awful.

by tomsteele on Jun 8, 2007 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

MLB TV
Anyone getting a "this page cannot be displayed" message?

by stltrav09 on Jun 8, 2007 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Nope...
Everything's good with my connection.

by jdubya on Jun 8, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not MLB TV, but I got bumped off MLB Audio
about 10 minutes ago and can't get back on. Maybe they're having some more general web page problems.

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 8, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm
must be my connection then.  damn.  thanks guys

by stltrav09 on Jun 8, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunc!
He makes it interesting, doesn't he?!

by jdubya on Jun 8, 2007 10:17 PM EDT reply actions  

IF the cardinals hold on to win...
...wells should get an honorary loss for trying to give it away, and the win should go to springer or someone else in the bullpen.

ok, that's my last post about wells for the night. i was just on my way out the door, hoping it would be an easy win, when i got sucked into the abyss that was the top of the 5th. grrr...

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions  

He got out of a couple of jams
I was especially proud after the one where rolen missed the easy ground ball.

I think he's just getting tired late in games...

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

defining
"late in games" as "after the 4th inning..."
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wells is dead to me.
He has now walked 38 and given up 12 HR in 75 innings. Not counting tonight's game, he is 12-33 the last 3 yrs.

He's done!

by jdubya on Jun 8, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

walking the leadoff batter with a 4-0 lead...
...is completely inexcusable. i remember weaver did that against the mets last year when the cardinals blew their 7-1 lead against the mets. wells had the win in his hands and gave it away.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate it when people pop in
the second Dunk hit his home run in the first the door bell rings. unexpected company sucks. looks like I've missed a pretty good game. how bad was wells tonight? he only gave up 3 against a very hot, and very good team. that's gotta be some kind of victory right?
The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions  

well was his
 usual inconsistent self.  6 k's, but 5 or 6 walks.  in and out of trouble.  lucky to only give up 3.

by sdesserman on Jun 8, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

We will lose this game....
thanks to Kip Wells and some not so brilliant management by LaRedwine.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 8, 2007 10:27 PM EDT reply actions  

that should do it...
effin bloop hits man, what the hell.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 8, 2007 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya
it's bloop hits, not poor management.  Broken bat doubles, 180 foot popups, etc.

Though I think Kennedy would have caught that ball by anderson...

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

BS it's not poor management....
you dont bring in your LOOGY to face two great right handed hitters. Springer should've stayed in to face Guerrero and GMJR
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 8, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

matthews
was hitting .213 as a righty, 330 as a lefty.
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

What the hell is up with that?
Does Tony have money on this game?
That was awful.

by saladdin69 on Jun 8, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

tj with the
crappy pitching, encrapcion with the weak throw home.   wells with the crappy start, kennedy with the crappy baserunning.  offense with the crappy impatient hitting against relievers.  

bring back mrs. speez.

by sdesserman on Jun 8, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions  

and
encrrapcion again demonstrates he can't field his position.  

and the bullpen implodes.

by sdesserman on Jun 8, 2007 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just wonderful
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 10:37 PM EDT reply actions  

encarnacion is not to blame for this one
he's been playing very well lately. kennedy's baserunning error (or a missed sign by wells) was huge though. this game sucks. in the 4th inning i was thinking a series victory might be possible, but at this point they'll be lucky to avoid a sweep the way things have turned.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 10:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Franklin in
About 4 batters too late, IMO...
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 10:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Never mind
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

good gawd what the hell
8-4? weren't the Cards just up 4-3?
The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 10:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Something tells me
we'll look back on this loss and remember it as the one where we just started getting things going... and blew it.

Oh yeah.. don't look now but here come the Cubs.  

by stltrav09 on Jun 8, 2007 10:48 PM EDT reply actions  

The weekend we're playing the hottest AL team
is the weekend that Chicago misses IL play and plays a slumping NL team.  Great...
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention
they have an incredibly easy stretch of about 14 games coming up.  If they keep it up they could be in first place by the end of the month.  

by stltrav09 on Jun 8, 2007 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed about this game and things slipping away
I didn't want to place too much importance on one game, but a win tonight would've been huge. Now it's back to 6 games under .500, and to top it off, the brewers have back from down 7-1 to down 7-6 against the rangers. uggh.

by willievinceterry on Jun 8, 2007 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

at least Cavazos
is wearing his uniform MLB-style tonight.
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 10:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope the club doesn't just roll over and
take this loss.  I don't expect them to come back and win or anything, but going gently into the night would not be good for the morale...
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 10:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Red Dog
Since when has Red Schoendienst been know as "Red Dog?"

by Zubin on Jun 8, 2007 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

What a bunch of hateful people you are tonight
I've always enjoyed reading this thread after a game, but you can't even give Kip Wells credit when he goes up against the best team in the AL, strikes out six with economical pitching in five innings, and gives up 3 runs.  Since our bullpen has so far given up 6 more runs to this team since Kip's departure, I hope you appreciate a little more his pitching skills earlier in the game.

You all seem so consumed with disappointment over the Reyes decision that you have to direct your hate somewhere--at Wells.  

I wrote this when you were railing against Kipp earlier; I haven't looked at the thread since.  Enjoy your great bullpen!

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

um, the best team in the AL
have cute little red sox on their uniform...
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

by RosevilleRedbird on Jun 8, 2007 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Woe buddy...
are you kidding me? The bullpen sucks because the bullpen is in the game. This guy Wells couldn't produce a QS if his life depended on it. He was terrible any which way you look at it...

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fairness
I don't think most of the anger is directed at Wells.  Rather its directed at TLR / Duncan for continuing to make poor choices.  

Wells is struggling.  He needs to go to the pen.  Unlike TLR/Duncan we just want pitchers that get outs without giving up runs.  We don't care HOW the pitchers do it as long as they do it.

We are pissed that the started leading the teams starters in K/9 and k/bb was demoted to learn how to strike out FEWER people.  ugh, all the while we get to watch this and then look forward to wellemeyer starting.

by DriverZn on Jun 8, 2007 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

the Cards brass ought to be ashamed of
themselves. this rotation is the biggest joke in all of baseball. We can't blame Tony & Dave for not being given quality guys to work with. it's everyone's fault, including Anthony's that he's down in memphis.
The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whatever
Ok great game Kip way to give up 7 hits and 5 walks in 5 innings. Great game.

by Harknights on Jun 8, 2007 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

isthe bullpen missing molina?
From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Jun 8, 2007 10:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow!
Did everyone bail on this game or what?  Hello?  Anyone out there?

by stltxfan on Jun 8, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Hate to say it
Kip Wells wasn't the problem tonight.  He left after 5 innings with the lead.  TJ didn't record an out.  Franklin looked bad for once.  Springer and Cavazos have looked good, but you would have thought of it the other way.  The Angels had a great 6th inning off of probably our best middle relief guy and our setup guy.  But Kip Wells pitched well enough for us to get a W out of it.  He wasn't Cy Young out there, but he was adequate.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 11:19 PM EDT reply actions  

You are probably right...
I'm a bit stunned.  I don't know who to blame it on.  A 6 run inning that happened so quickly, it's just like "Wha Happend?"

by stltxfan on Jun 8, 2007 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

give the Angel's come credit too
they take the extra base. they are really agressive. they got some bloop hits too, but they've run all over the Cards. and as I write this Kelley throws one into left.
The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 8, 2007 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep
That puts us out of slam range.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kip Wells is absolutely the problem...
He can't pitch deep into games, which exposes the pen. He's had one quality start in his last 10 outings. That's horrible. Tonight he retire 15 batters and allowed 12 to reach base... granted one was an IBB.

One QS in 10 starts can't be sugarcoated. And he's partially responsible for the 7th inning meltdown because, as a starter, the 7th is supposed to be his.

by guayzimi on Jun 8, 2007 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not trying to suggest Kip Wells is good
What I'm saying is he put donuts on the board until the 5th, where he ran into some trouble.  This is much better than some of his outings where he goes 4.1 or 4.2 innings and gives up 7 runs.  Kip Wells isn't a good enough pitcher to make it 7 innings regularly, so when he goes 5 and gives up 3 we have to take it as a minor victory, because that's probably about the best we could have asked for against one of the hottest teams in MLB.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

T.J. Busts a Nut
Looks like Tyler "busted a nut" tonight alright, but it wasn't on some babies;)  In all seriousness, though, I am mildly surprised that the Angels ripped him up like they did.  I can't see the game and my gameday is SNAFU, so I am wondering if he had trouble locating his slider and they just sat on something else.
"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

by AustinBOB on Jun 8, 2007 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol
At least the brewers lost to the (21-39) rangers tonight, despite hitting 3 home runs.
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 8, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey
We hit 3 HR's tonight, only had 6 runs to prove for it, though.  The Angels, on the other hand, scored 10 on 0 HR's.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 8, 2007 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Enjoy that
But the Cubs just passed us.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 9, 2007 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Innings pitched
For your information, Suppan last year averaged only 5.2 innings in games.  He had lots of games where he didn't go beyond 5 innings and a number where he came out below five.  Did you dismiss him the same way you are dismissing Wells?  Obviously he pitched well given what the team did to our usually solid bullpen.  Could you try to be gracious at least when Kip keeps us in a position to win?

by nycardfan on Jun 8, 2007 11:44 PM EDT reply actions  

That's not really the best comparison
Although I agree that this game was mostly lost by the bullpen, citing Soup's Average # of IP for your argument is somewhat misleading.

Last year Suppan started 32 regular season games for us, and fully EIGHTEEN of them were Quality Starts.   He then gave us 3 out of 4 more Quality Starts in the post season.  That's 21/36 QS's, or 58%.

This year Kip has 4 QS's in 12 starts.  That's a very weak 33%.

As for Avg # of IP, my data shows that last year Suppan's regular season AVERAGE was 6.125 IP, with a MEDIAN of 6.0 IP.

Kip Wells this year has an AVERAGE of 5.8 IP, and a MEDIAN of 6.0 IP.

So I would argue that IP is not really the main issue.  The issue is Kip's tendency to succumb to the "Big Inning" and put the game out of reach.  Even though his average IP is nearly identical to 2006 Suppan's, his ERA is roughly 2 points higher.  That's really bad.

If Kip "Doesn't Pitch Very" Wells is supposed to be the replacement for 2006 Suppan, he is NOT measuring up.  Since he seems to have decent "stuff" but routinely falls victim to the "big inning", LaDuncan should seriously consider moving Wells to the pen (and recalling Reyes).  Perhaps in the pen Kip's tendency to suddenly implode could be more closely managed and possibly avoided without costing the club so many games.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 9, 2007 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Suppan's has not played well recently
In his last ten games, he gave up 4 earned runs in five games and 3 earned runs in three games.  Since you think Kipp played so badly with having given up 3 ER tonight, Suppan has only played well according to your standards two times in his last ten games.  Or if you may exceptions for Suppan's 3 ER which you don't for Kipp, then he has played poorly 50% of the time.  

Anyway, Well's did have quality starts at the beginning of the season just as Suppan had but Wells had no run support.  Suppan would have won very few games in Wells' slot because the losses early on were due to no run support.

Here's the site for Suppan's recent games:  Here's the site:  sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5454

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Suppan's average
including the post season is 5.9 which is similar to Wells, at least according to his player card on ESPN.

In my opinion, Wells seems to have learned to control the yips when runners are on base (something I still don't think Reyes can do in the big leagues).  

He obviously has an endurance problem.  I don't think TLR helped that when he made him throw 125 pitches, followed by a game with 100+ pitches.  This bracketed his having a child.  Maybe he needs work on endurance and maybe there are ways that the team can help him on this.

I still think he has good stuff and am happy he's controlling the yips.  Now he needs to see if he can change his endurance.  If he can't make that work, he'd be great at middle relief.

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wells is as bad or worse than Reyes...
with runners on...

Wells line against: 282/380/573
Reyes: 346/407/628

The difference is that Wells BABIP with men on is 258 vs 346 for Reyes. Maybe it's partially the "yips", but there's also a decent amount of luck involved, imo...

by guayzimi on Jun 9, 2007 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes and Wainwright
let's lots of people on base as well and has the toughness to get them out. He's showed over and over that this has to do with his not getting the yips.  Wells early on always blew up with runners on and has not done that for a number of weeks now--that's a trend.  I guess trends and stats only mean something when you want them to.  It's luck for Wells but poor Reyes, he's somehow just underappreciated.

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

The team put Wells...
in a position to win by giving him a 3-0 lead, which he coughed up. He then bowed out after walking the leadoff man for the second inning in a row. The guy he walked, Howie Kendrick, had previously walked 13 times in 390 plate appearances.

As for the Soup-Wells comparison, can we at least agree that a guy who averages 5.2 innings/start with a 107 ERA+ is better than one with a 63 ERA+. Mark Mulder had a 62 ERA+ last year and he was one of the worst starters in the history of the franchise.

by guayzimi on Jun 9, 2007 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wells was ahead
when he quit.  He still had a 1 run lead that's why it's a no decision.  And your logic only seems to go one way.  Wells also put the team in a position to win by putting up 0's in four  innings and only giving up three runs.  Obviously he went against a good offense if our best relievers immediately gave up six runs.  Why is it so hard to admit that he played a good game tonight--not a great game--but a good game, especially considering his opponent.  MLB sees it this way as do the commentators I listened to.

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not admitting Wells...
had a "good game". I'm just not. I didn't see every pitch. Maybe some of the hits were bloops, but the Angels were seven for 20 tonight with five walks. Yes one was intentional, but he also got lucky by getting the horribly obese Colon, who probably hasn't run in forever, to ground into a DP, and Edmonds threw out a runner at 3rd. So not including the pitcher and the intentional walk, he faced 23 hitters. 12 were retired; 11 reached base. That's not good

Let me ask you, was this a "break-through" outing for Wells? Did he do something positive that hadn't happened in his prior outings? Not really. I don't think so. This was par for the course. And so far the course has been an ERA+ of 63. Last year Marquis was at 73 and Mulder was at 62. That's the level Wells is at.

One more question: Are you the "blindhomer" that sponsors Wells BR page? Just wondering...

by guayzimi on Jun 9, 2007 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wells has fixed some of his problems
over his last few games that would have made it impossible for him to be a starting pitcher, namely that he would get the yips when he got runners on base or when he got in a tough situation.  So, yes, he has improved on one of his problems.  In his last few games, his main problem is endurance.  I'm not sure if this is the club's fault, his circumstances (with a newborn), or what.  That's what I think TLR and Duncan should focus on.  Also I'm not "blindhomer", I don't even know who that is.

By the way, that Marquis guy you are deriding seems to be kicking our behinds now everytime we come up against him.  I wonder if he had a similar problem with endurance--Lou tends to pull him earlier than TLR did.  With the treatment Wells has received from St. Louis, I hope he has a similar luck as Marquis in the future.

And with all the ravings about Reyes, why isn't there a similar concern with his blowing up innings, not being able to go deep into games, or getting the yips when runners are on base?  Plus no one will admit on this site that he simply does not enough pitches for his current skill level to play succesfully at the big leagues.  At least Kip has pitches.

And to the hostility I've received for daring to say Kip played well last night.  I never said he was great, I said he did well and he left us in a position to win.  That's why he wasn't charged with the loss.  Those are the rules of the game.  The bullpen lost the game.  Maybe you should review the meaning of "no decision".

And I repeat again my earlier claim.  I still think this site has been filled with a lot of irrational rage lately and that has surprised me.

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, doesn't make this loss any easier
but I went to the Memphis Redbirds at Albuquerque Isotopes game tonight, and Rick Ankiel hit a HR to the deepest part of the park...about 440 feet.

Hawksworth and the Redbirds didn't look that great, though. Lots of first pitch or second pitch outs.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 8, 2007 11:57 PM EDT reply actions  

anyone notice
on the MLB.com game recap, they talk about how "Kelly Johnson" gave up four runs on four hits without recording an out?

very professional...

by longhornscardinals on Jun 9, 2007 12:21 AM EDT reply actions  

haha
but I can't say I'd mind having Kelly Johnson on our team right now.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 9, 2007 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

geez.....no fear!
The difference between the "better Wells" of the first 4.1 innings and the "bad Wells" of games past....he took the INSIDE of the plate away from hitters, at least thru four.

Something NO Cardinal pitcher (except possibly Carpenter) has done effectively over the past 8-9 years. Down and away down and away down and away LaDuncan ad. nauseum. La Russa is so freaked out about being accused of throwing at hitters that there's zero fear facing the Cards rotation. He goes ballistic on his own pitchers if they nick somebody. Hitters dont hesitate to dive across the plate against the Cards staff.

What happened to the high hard one thats keeps hitters honest? Drysdale wouldnt pitch for Duncan.

Tyler Johnson busted something tonite and it was'nt pretty, funny, punny or cute and no babies were involved. I think it was the hope of winning
the game he busted.

"I don't need a damn number to tell me the guy's no good right now!" Old Casey.... Pitching, base running and defense!

by cardschinmusic on Jun 9, 2007 6:00 AM EDT reply actions  

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