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Reyes' 2-Seam: Heterodoxy

This is kind of long, so please bear with me.

I appreciated LB's post a few days ago, breaking down Reyes' 2-seam vs. 4-seam fastballs. There were some good lessons there, but a few people here seem to accept it as gospel truth, esp. those in the Wells diary. For those, this is "overwhelming evidence" that TLR/Dunc have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that Reyes should stop throwing the 2-seam altogether. But I'm not quite as convinced, for a few reasons:

  1. Reyes lit up AAA last year, and has so far this year, at the same rates that he always has. But we have no reason to believe that he has stopped throwing the 2-seam in the minors. In fact, it's safe to assume that the opposite is true: Reyes is still throwing the 2-seam in the minors, and his numbers there are as good as ever. But, for some reason, he's been unsuccessful in the Bigs while being dominating in the minors. LB's data doesn't speak to this anomaly.
  2. His peripherals in the Bigs this year are completely out of whack with his minor-league numbers. Last year in AAA, while throwing the 2-seam, Reyes had nearly an 8:1 K:BB ratio. This year in the majors, it's about 2:1. That's a pretty big discrepancy. Perhaps AAA hitters are more susceptible to chasing bad breaking balls and pitches out of the zone. Perhaps in the bigs, the hitters are more patient and willing to take a walk, or wait for a mistake that they can drive. BAA shows some of this: it was .221 in AAA last year, and it's .259 this year in the majors.  his inability to pitch more than 6 innings a single time in the Bigs this year is also evidence of that; hitters are taking being more selective, taking more pitches, and taking more BBs or swinging at the pitches they can drive.
  3. The data. it's freakishly impossible that, out of 53 swings against Reyes' 4-seam, only three have been put in play. That is unsustainable. I haven't thoroughly researched it, but I can't believe that any pitcher at any point in history sustained that kind of deception with any pitch, much less a 91 mph fastball. it's a statistical anomaly. Not only that, but...
  4. Reyes' 2-seam fastball is setting up his 4-seam, making it much more effective than it would be if Reyes wasn't throwing the 2-seam at all. if hitters are expecting a sinking 88 mph 2-seamer, and get a 91 mph high heater instead, they might be fooled. if they are sitting on the 4-seamer the whole time, we would expect a lot more of those swings to result in balls-in-play. this is made even more true because Reyes' curveball is slop and he can't seem to consistently throw his changeup for a strike anymore. hitters are looking for his 2-seam because they know TLR/Dunc's philosophy and have scouted Reyes so far, so they are hitting it more effectively. this allows Reyes to sneak the 4-seamer past them, or force them to foul it off. but if Reyes stops throwing the 2-seam, everyone will sit on the 4-seam, and the deception will erode, making the 4-seam easier to hit.
  5. the data selection is deceptive. first of all, LB left out all fastballs from thigh-high to letter-high. a lot of these will probably be 4-seamers, as 2-seamers are supposed to break down and out of the K-zone (or at least to the bottom edge of it). if a pitch is belt-high, it's either a 4-seam or a mis-located 2-seam. by leaving out those pitches, LB is essentially examining the very top and very bottom of the strike zone and pitches outside the zone. not only that, but a letter-high pitch is rarely even called a strike anymore, and that's the bottom boundary of the "4-seam zone" that LB looked at. so the weird stat that only 3 4-seamers have been put in play gets a little context: a lot of those 4-seamers were balls. this would also help to explain why so many of the 4-seamers LB tracked were fouled off (60%) compared to the number of 2-seamers fouled off (30%). if Reyes starts throwing only 4-seam fastballs, he's going to have to bring them under the letters more to get more strikes called and the pitches will get hit harder.
i think i know what LB's intention was in leaving out all of the fastballs in between the thigh and the letters: it's harder to distinguish whether those pitches were 2-seam or 4-seam. but it's impossible to get a full grasp of the effectiveness of Reyes' fastballs without including all the data.

6. The problem isn't that Reyes throws the 2-seam; it's that he can't locate it. again, perhaps LB can shed some additional light on this question, but anecdotally, it seems like Reyes has less control with the 2-seam than with the 4-seam. This is not necessarily a reason to stop throwing the 2-seam, but it could be the reason Reyes was sent down to AAA to try to further hone the pitch in a situation where the result matters less. as i mentioned already, Reyes' AAA numbers last year and so far this year indicate that he's learned just about all he can from facing AAA hitters. but if he's down there to learn pitch mastery, then it makes more sense. i'd still rather him pitch up here than Wellemeyer or Wells, but the decision becomes a bit more logical if viewed in that light. if Reyes is having trouble throwing the 2-seam properly after having worked on it for nearly two years, then that isn't a problem with TLR/Dunc's philosophy; it's a problem with Reyes' ability. perhaps that's an argument in favor of junking of the 2-seam. but if TLR/Dunc believe that he can eventually master the pitch, then it can make him a better pitcher.

That's enough for now. But I would like to reiterate one thing. Reyes doesn't have a good breaking ball, and he has had trouble locating the changeup. Good fastball pitchers have great complimentary breaking balls (Carp, Santana, Pedro) or great complimentary secondary fastballs (Clemens, Carp, Wells, Rivera). There aren't too many guys who have had sustained success in the majors with one good pitch, one so-so pitch, & and one horrible pitch. without the 2-seam, that's Reyes' entire arsenal. in the short term, Reyes might be better without the 2-seam. in the long term, success will be more difficult to maintain without it.

please forgive any typos, misspellings, etc.

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Reyes
I would think that the quote from the Memphis pitching coach in Erik's thread yesterday would suggest that Reyes has a different approach.  while it didn't specifically mention him not using the 2-seam while under Dyer's watch, I think a lot of people are making the assumption that that is the case.  would be nice to hear from people that can see his Memphis starts.  I'm hoping that if he's still pitching for Memphis in early August that I might be able to catch one of his starts myself.  but I'd rather the big club let him change his approach than see him stuck at a level he's pretty much mastered.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 4, 2007 11:41 PM EDT   0 recs

if that's the case...
... and the AAA manager is directly subverting the will of the MLB manager, pitching coach, and general manager, then this organization is completely screwed.

No, the quote from Dyer Miller (the Memphis manager, i believe, not the pitching coach) indicates that he disagrees with TLR/Dunc's approach. It doesn't indicate that he's in open revolt, and instructs Reyes to pitch in the opposite way that TLR/Dunc want. I think you're reading way too much into one sentence.

by kindred on Jun 5, 2007 12:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it would be difficult
to tell what pitches he's throwing at the ballpark.  With the behind-the-pitcher centerfield camera on TV, you can clearly see it.  But live, unless you're right behind home plate or have a good angle in the outfield, I'd think it would be difficult to tell which one he's throwing.

I still wonder if there's a possibility that he and TLR or Dunc aren't exactly sharing Christmas cards.  

by philbobilbo on Jun 5, 2007 12:17 AM EDT   0 recs

Just a few counterpoints...
good post, btw, you do make some good points, but I have to pretty much entirely disagree.  I do think that having the two seamer force fed to him has directly effected pretty much everything he does.  I think he's changed his arm slot or something and that has directly effected his velocity and control.

I'll preface this by saying I've watched him pitch two times in the minor leagues.  He consistently hit 95 with his fastball and even touched 97 a couple times.  I'm pretty sure he didn't walk a batter, and as a matter of fact I don't remember any 3 ball counts ( i remember this because at the time I was very impressed at the way he attacked the hitters).

Let me resond to your points.

  1.  We don't have any evidence either way, but the 2 seamer wasn't introduced until last year.  I think it is safe to say that he is not at all comfy with that pitch and probably isn't throwing it much now that Duncan is not breathing down his neck.  Like I said though, no evidence either way.
  2.  Perhaps minor league hitters are a less disciplined, that makes sense.  However, does it explain going from an 8:1 ratio to 2:1...talk about freakishly impossible.  It probably has some to do with both schools of thought, but there is no doubt in my mind that the constant tinkering and overcoaching has robbed him of both his velocity and excellent command.  It bears repeating that he went through, in his AAA start, 7 innings and needed only 98 pitches to do so.
  3.  A statistical anomaly?  Please.  That's just a way of saying "I don't want the evidence to be true...so I'll just dismiss it"  A high fastball is the hardest pitch to "get on top of" and drive, especially when it's setup off of an excellent change at the knees.
  4.  Ahhh, but he doesn't need the 2 seamer to setup the 4 seamer.  That is where the change comes in, which is btw...his best pitch.  Besides Duncan doesn't want him to use the pitch to setup anything...he wants him to throw it at the knees and let em hit it.  Groundballs are nice, but K's are better.
  5.  No, the data isn't deceptive.  You've missed the whole point.  I don't know anyone that is advocating any pitcher to consistently throw fastballs letter to thigh high...that's just ridiculous.  Those pitches are generally mistakes or "get ahead" pitches or pitches that you throw when you are behind in the count.  Showing that pitches thigh high, over the middle of the plate wasn't what the excercise was about...that's common knowledge.
It basically all boils down to this...Reyes does not throw the pitch well, and he isn't comfortable with the whole "pitch to contact" theory.  You can't just mold every arm into the same guy...it doesn't work like that.  That is good for guys who don't have overpowering stuff, but if a guy can miss a bat or two...why wouldn't you want that?  that is what baffles me.  The groundball is not the best result from an AB...the K is.  Ks are not booted by fielders, they don't move runners up, and they don't find holes in the infield.  When is the last time you heard of a "seeing eye K"?  Reyes is a very talented pitcher that the Cardinals are severely miscasting...I just can't see it any other way.
There's always next year :(

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 2:06 AM EDT   0 recs

I meant to say...
Showing that pitches thigh high, over the middle of the plate get hammered wasn't what the excersize was about...it was about trying to figure out which pitches were the most succesful and that was FAR AND AWAY the 4 seamer high in the zone.
There's always next year :(

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 2:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Possibly
however, you can't just take the other pitches that were in the strikezone out to show what is and isn't effective.

Of course, fastballs above hitters hands is going to be more effective than ones they can golf at.  However, you can't throw a fastball above a hitter's hand all the time, or else you end up with a 3.00+ BB/9 rate.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 5, 2007 2:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Out pitch
There's always next year :(

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 2:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

full data
here it is, zone by zone --- fastballs only. remember, zone 1 (high) and 5 (low are outside the strike zone:
zone no. strikes swings miss foul in play avg obp slg
1 23 1 1 1 0 0 --- --- ---
2 77 57 52 17 32 3 .071 .235 .286
3 204 170 138 18 75 45 .259 .273 .481
4 155 114 73 11 21 41 .333 .412 .556
5 49 4 4 2 2 0 .000 .667 .000

that's every fastball, to every zone. i hesitate to draw any conclusions about the pitches in zone 3 --- are those 2 seamers or 4 seamers? could be either. if it's a 2-seamer, it's a mistake --- a sinker shouldn't come in that high; if it's a 4-seamer that gets too much of the plate, it's also a mistake. the only good pitch in zone 3 is a 4-seam fastball on the corner.

the fact remains that reyes' worst results come at the bottom of the strike zone. there's really no way around this, guys. i can't make you accept the legitimacy of this data, but for anybody who does accept it, there's only one conclusion.

by lboros on Jun 5, 2007 11:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Any proof that Reyes arm slot has changed
because there was actually analysis on this site about Reyes mechanics earlier this year and there really wasn't that much of a difference to reduce him from the fabled 97 mph you said he was touching down to the 91 mph stuff we see almost every night.

Why is it Chris Carpenter and Braden Looper, both fully embracing Dave Duncan's philosophy with the 2-seamer can still bring it 96 mph to 95 mph when need be, yet Anthony Reyes has been so destroyed by the pitch that he has seen almost a 6 mph drop off on the 4-seamer?

Perhaps it is his awkward mechanics he has had his entire career and he is just beginning his Mark Prior-style slide to arm surgery?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 5, 2007 2:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow...
we really but heads on this subject:).  That's fine, I don't think I will change your mind and you certainly won't change mine.

Fabled 97?  Are you seriously calling me a liar?  That's a bit uncalled for...i'm not going to lie to help my argument and I'm a bit offended that you charge me with that, and no I don't have any evidence in the change of arm slot (if you'll notice I said change in arm slot or something)...it's just something that I think is happening.

Why can Carp and Looper do it with little change to their velocity...might have something to do with them always throwing the pitch and not having it thrust upon them only when they reach the big leagues.  IDK, all I know is, there has been a HUGE drop in velocity from the time I saw him pitch in the minors until now.

I'm pretty much done with the subject though.  I've thoroughly explained my view and it isn't going to change.  The stubborness of Duncarussa is costing this team wins, plain and simple.

Reyes won't be succesful here as long as the current regime is around, and hopefully his value in a trade is still good enough to get us our a good young SS.  He WILL be an above average major league starter, just not here or not while Dunc is here for that matter.

They are already doing the same thing with Ottavino.  Why wouldn't they just draft guys that throw 88mph and pitch to contact, and are comfortable doing that, instead of drafting pitchers with power arms and trying to convert them...doesn't make sense.  The more power Lunhow gets in this organization the better, IMO.

There's always next year :(

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 2:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't calling you a liar
you saw what you saw.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 5, 2007 2:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

chill... it's just people having a discussion
and I've heard that AutoZone has a fast radar gun.  And it's probably premature to make gloabal statements about whether or not Reyes will be successful with this manager.

by Valatan on Jun 5, 2007 12:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

BTW
I'm not saying that the 2 seamer is a poor pitch.  On the contrary it can be very effective when trying to get a grounder for a DP or even trying to throw a first pitch strike because if the batter hits it... it is likely to go on the ground.

It's a useful pitch...just not for Anthony Reyes.

You don't have to be a pitch to contact hurler to be succesful regardless of what Dave Duncan says.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 2:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

allow me to retort...
i don't think you adequately answered any of my points.

first of all, your idea that learning the 2-seam forced Reyes to "change his arm slot or something" is just silly. i'm not a pitching coach, but i'm pretty sure that throwing a 2-seam fastball shouldn't throw off one's mechanics; it's a pretty standard pitch. in any case, you present no evidence - anecdotally or otherwise - that Reyes' arm slot actually has changed. so i'll just dismiss this point out of hand until you've presented a better argument. and, for the record, i've never seen Reyes throw 97. i'm not calling you a liar. like Hardcore said... you saw what you saw. but i've never seen it. nothing close to it.

  1. what is the evidence that Reyes was only told to learn the 2-seam last year? it was my understanding that this was the TLR/Dunc system from A-ball on up, which is why Ottavino is already being taught the subject. i imagine that nearly every pitcher at every level in the Cards organization is being taught in much the same way, with variances to match their particular skill sets. in any case, even if Reyes did only learn it last year, his minor league numbers last year were exceptional, but his major league numbers were pedestrian. and i can't imagine that Reyes would really ignore Duncan when he was in AAA. he knows every pitch of every start at Memphis is being watched by the top brass. if he directly flouted their instruction, there's no way he'd make it back to the big club. i think it's safe to assume that Reyes' game plan in AAA is nearly exactly the same as it is with StL. it's worked wonders at Memphis, but hasn't been nearly so successful in the bigs. why is that? i haven't heard a good answer to that question yet.
  2. again... if my first point is valid, then so is my second one. we all know of pitchers who excel at AAA but struggle in the bigs. yes, the transition from an 8:1 K:BB ration to a 2:1 is extreme. but that doesn't make it meaningless, or any less true. anyways, it can't be chalked up to "constant tinkering" since there's only been one tinker, and it's been a standing one for at least two years now: learn to throw the 2-seam. it's not like Reyes has to learn 4 new pitches every time he throws in MLB, but only throws the 4-seam in AAA. the game plan is the same in both cases, and he's throwing the same pitches. for whatever reason, it's worked splendidly so far at Memphis, but hasn't been great at StL.
  3. no, a "statistical anomaly" isn't code for "i just don't want to believe it". it is what it is: a freaking weird stat. even LB acknowledged it in his post. that stat can't hold up, which makes me believe that it is either a statistical quirk, or that there is more to the story than what that stat is supposedly showing. which is why i questioned the validity of LB's choice of analysis: how many of those pitches were balls? why leave out most of the K-zone? i assumed it was because it's harder to distinguish b/t a 2-seam and 4-seam in that middle zone. that's reasonable. but in so doing, we're leaving out a LOT of the data, so coming to a meaningful conclusion becomes much more difficult. it's not bullshit... it's Stats 101: if your sample isn't random - and in this case it intentionally isn't -  then you won't get a representative result. cry "unfair" all you like, but them's the rules.
  4. i'm not saying that Dunc is teaching Reyes to use the 2-seam to set up the 4-seam. i'm saying that that is a possible result of using both fastballs, no matter what Dunc (or anyone else) says. it's perfectly logical: if hitters are looking for pitch A, but they get pitch B instead, then pitch B will likely be more effective than if the hitters were looking for pitch B all along. and since you didn't bother discussing the point beyond that straw man, i won't bother with a further extrapolation.
  5. i didn't miss the point. i made the point, which you then missed. i'm not saying that Dunc is telling Reyes to throw pitches in between the thighs and the letters; i'm just saying that many pitches end up there anyways. this will happen even more if you rely on the 4-seam. you don't throw 4-seams below the knees; you throw them belt-up. by neglecting to account for all of those pitches, i believe LB may have come to a false result. i don't think it was intentional or malicious on his part. i just don't think it's a fair accounting of the data. that's all.
your last point is another straw man. i don't think anyone can honestly say that TLR/Dunc are trying to turn everyone into the same pitcher. Carp pitches nothing like Soup did, and Reyes pitches nothing like Morris did. Marquis' style under Dunc had nearly nothing in common with Wells'. Reyes pitches very differently than Wainwright or Thompson. these are all very different pitchers. but TLR/Dunc recognize that you have to be able to get hitters out in a lot of different ways; not just one. Reyes can't strike everyone out, as he's shown with his remarkably low strand rate and inability to go deep into games. it's not about "seeing-eye K's"... it's about getting the most batters out in the shortest amount of pitches. so far, Reyes hasn't been able to consistently do that well at the MLB-level. there's probably a lot of reasons for this, and i just don't think all the blame can be laid on the 2-seam.

by kindred on Jun 5, 2007 4:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll try and reply
to a couple of these, I guess.

*1. Here's an interview with Dyar Miller from this blog: http://vivaelbirdos.com/story/2006/4/19/8247/38852

It's kind of a misconception, two-seam versus four-seam. It's not how you hold the ball; it's your arm positioning. If you lead with your elbow, I don't care if you grip two seams, four seams, or eight seams -- your ball's not gonna sink. He needs to get his elbow up on top, get his fingers over the ball, and throw in a downward plane. When Reyes does that, sometimes his four-seamer sinks.

He did throw some two-seam last year, and he's been working with it some this year. I don't think he trusts it yet. I don't think he'll throw it when he's in a jam or when he's having trouble locating. But it's not how you hold the ball. He's just got to get his elbow up and get his fingers on top consistently. He has a tendency to throw pies. You ever throw a pie at somebody's face -- with your forearm up above your elbow? You push the thing. When you're throwing pies, it's pretty hard to throw a sinker.

I believe he learned it some in 2005 but it wasn't until ST 2006 that he really had to employ the pitch on a consistent basis. That's basically the answer to when he "started" throwing it.

You wrote: i think it's safe to assume that Reyes' game plan in AAA is nearly exactly the same as it is with StL

I don't think it's safe to assume that actually. For one, I watched his last start and he was throwing mainly four-seamers (though of course it's a little hard to tell without a radar gun) and he was pumping rising fastballs at hitters hands. Inside and up. It was markedly different, but who knows, it's just one game. Another quote from Miller might be a little more telling that he's not being forced to do anything at Memphis:

I think that's what they want in the big leagues. But if Anthony doesn't want to conform to it, I don't know," longtime Memphis pitching coach Dyar Miller said. "Some guys can just pick up a sinker and throw it. He told me, 'I can't do it.' I think he feels he's caught in the middle. He wants to throw a four-seamer.

I'm still not trying to say one way or the other, but it seems like Dyar is taking Reyes' side, so to speak, which is interesting (perhaps the understatement of the year).

*2. It's 5/1 MiLB to 3/1 MLB. I think some of that can be accounted if he's throwing a pitch more often that realistically probably isn't for him (hell, maybe MLB hitters destroy his low-fastball, seems like it from lboros' post), and to the change in talent level sure. How much of each? Who knows.

*3. Reyes allows 17% BIP on all pitches. That is 9/53. 3/53 is pretty low, but hardly a statistical anomaly. It's got to be higher on balls being swung at obviously (but we don't know about fastballs up, sure seems like hitters foul off a TON of those this year doesn't it?), but it's what really happend. Sample size? Outlier? Unsustainable? Yeah, maybe sure. Maybe it's actually a good pitch, even sitting 91 his four-seamer does have good life. Maybe MLB hitters are sitting on his piece of shit two-seamer and can't catch up with the cheese. Hitters don't historically foul off this many pitches against Reyes, I forget what it is offhand, but his P/PA are way up this year IIRC.

*4. His two-seamer doesn't come it at 88 MPH (I'm fairly sure, although I'm not charting him). That one fastball up in the zone that lboros mentions that Barrett hit out into Wrigleyville? Hanging 84 MPH sinker. I was sitting right there and looked up at the gun when it happened. I do agree that the two-seamer can be a good addition to his repertoire (if he can actually throw it, professional pitching coaches dissagree apparently) but he probably won't ever find success becoming a straight sinkerballer. His change becomes much less effective in that scenario and is too good to waste like that anyway.

*5. The purpose of the exercise was exactly to examine what happened when he "lived up in the zone" as opposed to when he got his fastball (generally two-seam supposedly) down. It was not to look at when he throws a fastball right down the middle and I'm not sure what that has to do with it.

You say originally: by leaving out those pitches, LB is essentially examining the very top and very bottom of the strike zone and pitches outside the zone. not only that, but a letter-high pitch is rarely even called a strike anymore

when that was exactly the point, I believe. To examine those parts of the K zone, and in only looking at fastballs swung on, there is no calling of strikes in this sample.  

*6. I pretty much agree with you here. I would also just point out the difference between it being part of his arsenal and it being a primary pitch. I don't know the data, but it seems to me that Duncan is pushing for the latter.

I don't want you to think that I was disagreeing with you with everything I said here. Just because I used the same points doesn't mean it's a rebuttal, although some of it is of course. AND I'm not even sure what to think about Reyes anymore, I'm just presenting some information that I'm fairly sure is accurate and I tried to back up to some extent.

by plh903 on Jun 5, 2007 6:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And I
was just going on memory for his ML numbers when they really were more like 3/1 a few starts ago, since that won't make sense either way.

by plh903 on Jun 5, 2007 6:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

good post...
... thanks. in the areas we disagree:
  1. If Reyes didn't have to start throwing the 2-seam in ST '06 (which i still doubt), that would still be 18 months or so that he's had to learn the pitch. maybe he just can't do it. and i can't imagine that Miller is instructing Reyes to "f--- Duncan" and just throw how he wants in AAA. if that's the case, then it's no wonder he hasn't learned the 2-seam yet. but that would be so stupid and bizarre that i can't believe it's what's happening unless someone has direct evidence of it. also: Reyes' minor league numbers last year (with the 2-seam) were great. his MLB numbers were awful. so far this year, it looks like a similar story. if the 2-seam is such an awful pitch, then why is he so much more effective in AAA? it's a question which hasn't been answered yet.
  2. it IS an anomaly. like you said, Reyes' career BIP is 17%. on those high pitches, it's 3%. and the numbers of fouls are way up (32/77 in zone 2 vs. 21/155 in zone 4). it makes a little sense if you buy the notion that hitters are sitting on Reyes' 2-seam, so the 4-seam is slipping by them. but if you take awat the 4-seam, that deception won't work any more.
  3. i've watched every start of Reyes this year. all of his fastballs were consistently between 88-91 mph. perhaps that one pitch to Barrett (in cold weather, in his first start of the season) was only 84, but consistently, his 2-seam seems to be be ~88, and the 4-seam tends to be ~91.
  4. no, the purpose of the exercise was to look at which pitch is more effective: the 2-seam or the 4-seam. by leaving out zone 3, you're leaving out nearly 1/2 of Reyes' strikes. LB's right... it's sometimes hard to know which pitch is which in that zone, but all i'm saying is that if you are intentionally leaving out 50% of the data, then your conclusion is likely skewed. esp. since most of those pitches are probably 4-seam. it's still true that Reyes does worse when he's in zone 4, but the contrast isn't nearly so severe.
but all in all, great post.

by kindred on Jun 5, 2007 3:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

wrt #2
scratch my K/BB numbers obviously. I didn't realize that you were referring to just 2006 and 2007, although there's probably something to be said for sample size here, and some of the rest of the carryover from #1 regarding Miller v. Duncan I'll still stand by.

by plh903 on Jun 5, 2007 6:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't see...
how it's not abundantly clear that I responded to EVERY one of your points.

I'll just agree to disagree here.

One thing I'm sure we can both agree upon...whatever he is doing now is not working so a change in philosphy or scenery might be best.

BTW...you've never seen him throw "anything close to 97"?  Why don't you dig up the game film from game 1 of the WS...he hit 94-95 on numerous occasions.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 4:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The FOX gun was terrible during the playoffs
it had everyone's velocity way off.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 6, 2007 11:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I see
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 6, 2007 4:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The velocity was off
But the main gun was always slow, not fast. The Foxtrack gun was pretty much right on and had him topping out at 95.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jun 6, 2007 5:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

kindred, i appreciate your thoughtful breakdown
as well as all the detailed responses. good discussion. in the end, i gotta go with the empirical evidence. reyes had great success with the high fastball in the minors, and he's having great success with it in the majors; until proven otherwise --- and proven empirically --- we ought to conclude that it's an effective pitch.

if those results are unsustainable over time, that will become apparent soon enough --- the evidence will show it, and duncan's wisdom will be demonstrated yet again. but maybe the results are sustainable; we have no evidence to the contrary. we only have conjecture and theory; we have dave duncan's opinion that reyes can't get away with the high heat.

i respect dave duncan tremendously, but the evidence we have so far contradicts him.

by lboros on Jun 5, 2007 7:14 AM EDT   0 recs

with all due respect...
... i'm not conjecturing any more than anybody else. all you can say, with the evidence you've presented, is that Reyes' 4-seam has been more effective within this current mix of pitches; any conclusions beyond that are not empirically-based. you can't look at this data and conclude that Reyes would be better served by pitching an entirely different way. it may seem like a small point, but those of us trained as scientists should recognize that it isn't an insignificant one.

from this data, you could maybe say that Reyes should mix in more 4-seamers letters-up (relative to 2-seamers thigh-down) than he does now, but you can't justify anything beyond that with this data. to say that, overall, Reyes would be better by dropping the 2-seam altogether is pure conjecture, and is not spoken to by this data. saying that this data says that Reyes should drop the 2-seam is like saying that this data says Reyes should start throwing a knuckleball. at the point that Reyes changes his mix of pitches, this data becomes meaningless.

Reyes has never pitched that way in the majors. and, from what i can tell, he hasn't pitched that way in the minors in a few years (where his numbers have been great, despite using the 2-seam). i'm not saying the 4-seam isn't an effective pitch. of course it is. i'm just saying that the fact that the 4-seam is effective is not justification for scrapping the 2-seam. maybe for throwing it less; maybe for throwing it better. but not for dropping it altogether. as i mentioned, it seems pretty likely that Reyes' 2-seam is making his 4-seam more effective, by keeping hitters off-balance.

i didn't mention, but could've, that Reyes' antagonistic attitude (evidently reinforced by his AAA manager) could skew all this as well. Reyes clearly wants the 2-seam to fail. so maybe he's not putting his best effort into it. maybe he never has.
 

by kindred on Jun 5, 2007 3:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

interpret the data however you want, kindred
everybody can come to their own conclusions. i'll stand behind my own, which aren't much different from the ones you just expressed. viz.:

a) "Reyes should mix in more 4-seamers letters-up (relative to 2-seamers thigh-down) than he does now" ---- those are your words. i agree with that statement. the current mix is probably about 2-to-1 in favor of 2-seamers; i think it should be 2-to-1 in favor of 4-seamers.

b) "the fact that the 4-seam is effective is not justification for scrapping the 2-seam" --- again, i'm quoting you directly, and i agree with that statement. i've never argued that reyes should scrap the 2-seamer, and i haven't heard many people make that argument. i and others have argued that the 2-seamer should be a secondary pitch, rather than his bread-n-butter fastball.

by lboros on Jun 5, 2007 3:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He doesn't want the 2-seam to fail.
That would mean that he wants to lose.  That fact that he goes out in front of thousands of people and throws it makes me think that he wants it to succeed. I think he BELIEVES it will fail.  And an athlete that believes he will fail, will.

by Stanfan6 on Jun 5, 2007 5:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

what i meant was...
... that he doesn't want to throw the 2-seam. he's made that abundantly clear. i'm not saying that he's praying that every one he throws gets crushed, but i think Reyes would rather do it "his way". to that extent, he's always got an excuse: "TLR/Dunc are making me do this, so if i don't succeed it's not my fault". so my point was that his attitude is setting him up for failure. i'm not sure how much of an effect that has. but it could be part of the equation.

by kindred on Jun 5, 2007 6:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My $.02
Nice post, Kindred.  Very well organized.  I am going to disagree with you, but much respect on the presentation of the material.  

The reason I disagree is based mostly on what I've seen from Reyes in his brief career.  I only saw him pitch once in the minors, at Memphis, so my knowledge is almost exclusively based on his Major League starts.  

If you look at the best starts Reyes has had, you're primarily looking at his first few starts last season, his one start in 05, and his World Series performance.  In each of those starts, he was throwing high in the zone, and he was throwing hard.  I actually have the White Sox game on DVD, (I dvred it at the time, then transferred it because it was too good to erase) and his fastball was consistently in the mid 90s range.  He hit 97 no less than four times, if I remember correctly.  I haven't watched it in a month or two, so I won't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure of my memory.  His Milwaukee start from 05 was much the same.  In the first two innings he topped out at about 92, and I said to my father, (who I was watching the game with) that I was under the impression this kid threw really hard.  After the second, he seemed to loosen up and hit as high as 96.  In his first few starts last season, he consistently threw very hard.  Now, if you want to say he's hurt, or he's just lost velocity, that's fine.  That's another issue.  My point is that when Reyes has had the best success, he's been throwing hard and high.  Go and look at the World Series start.  In the first, he was throwing a lot of offspeed stuff, trying to trick hitters and keeping the ball low in the zone.  After the first inning, Duncan apparently told him to go with the fastball.  If you watch the rest of the game, he was consistently going up and in on hitters, tying them up with the heater and recording the majority of his outs by way of pop ups and weak fly balls.  His velocity wasn't great, but he hit 91 on the Fox gun, which was around 4-5 mph slower than their speed on the FoxTrak feature.  (For reference, Verlander topped out at 92 a couple of times on the main broadcast gun, but a couple of his pitches at 89 on the main display were on FoxTrak at 94.)  If you believe the FoxTrak gun, which I tend to, based on comparative velo from Verlander and Rodney, he was pitching right around 90-93, with one or two pitches all the way up to 95 or so.  Each time we have seen Reyes pitching aggressively, up in the strike zone, he has been very good.  The longer he has been under Duncan's tutelage, though, trying to alter his approach, his performance has become markedly worse.  

The mechanical issue between the two seam and four seam fastball is fairly significant.  Actually, I should say, the difference between just throwing a fastball and trying to throw a sinker is different.  A fastball is thrown from more behind the pitch, with a pulling through the ball sort of motion.  On a sinker, you're turning the ball over, almost rolling your hand over the top of the ball.  Trying to learn how to sink the ball can have a marked impact on a pitcher's arm action.  Once you start messing with the muscle memory and doing something unfamiliar with your hand and wrist, it can be very difficult to get yourself back into the proper position.  Just ask any golfer who has ever tried to implement a swing change, only to discover that the things they previously did well are now problems, and have been unable to get back.  

As for the statistical anomaly bit, you're right.  That is an anomaly.  But I think it's a very telling anomaly.  Yes, it probably is impossible for anyone to maintain that sort of ridiculous rate, but the fact that, even over 53 swings, his high fastball has been almost unhittable is still meaningful.  The stat is inflated, but still related closely to the truth.  His high fastball is a very difficult pitch to hit, due to good velocity and  an unusual amount of movement and "jump".  Albert Pujols' or Alex Rodriguez's 14 home runs in a month are also statistical anomalies, but still indicative of their prowess as power hitters.  I think the same is true of Reyes' high FB low rate of being put in play.  

The last little bit of your argument is, to my way of thinking, the real gist of this whole thing.  You say the problem isn't the two seamer itself, but the fact that Anthony Reyes can't properly locate it.  I think that's actually the contention of most everyone here who has a problem with the Duncan paradigm of pitching low to groundball type contact.  I personally don't have a problem with that philosophy.  Groundball pitchers are great.  They're usually efficient, stay away from the gopher ball, and they can get a double play when they need it.  The problem is that Anthony Reyes seems to struggle when he attempts to throw this pitch.  In spite of that very basic fact, the braintrust insists on trying to make him into a sinkerballer.  You yourself say that if he hasn't learned the pitch in two years of trying to throw it, it says something about his ability.  I think that's very true.  I think it says that Anthony Reyes is not well suited to be a sinker style pitcher.  There are pitchers who can't throw a curveball, and pitchers who can't figure out a good changeup grip.  The answer, in those cases, generally is not to keep forcing the pitcher is question to throw the pitch he's not good with.  You figure out what the guy does well, then help him maximize what he can get out of his abilities.  Johnny Cash was an amazing musician, but guess what?  He had a very limited vocal range.  So what did he do?  Well, he didn't try to bust out the falsetto, that's for sure.  

Not every pitcher falls under the same range of abilities, for good and bad.  Anthony Reyes seems to be at his best throwing up in the zone with a four seam fastball.  Despite the fact that he's been the most successful with that style, the current management of this team continues to try and force him to alter his approach.  All of your points are worthy of consideration, but it comes down to that basic dichotomy.  The more Anthony Reyes has tried to conform to Dave Duncan's methodology, the less success he has had.  Maybe he just isn't that good a pitcher.  But he certainly seems to have been able to get outs, both in the minors and at the Major League level, by pitching to his strengths.  To try and force him to go away from those strengths, to me, just doesn't make sense.  That is my contention with the handling of Reyes.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 5, 2007 7:40 AM EDT   0 recs

That is a long post.....
but I stuck with it, and I think your right.  The problem is that current management is so arrogant that they will never admit they are wrong.  And young Mr. Reyes will probably be a good 3-4 starter for someone else.  I don't understand because he was a 15 round draft pick, he's not eligible for free agency for a few more years, so he's cheap, really cheap, and it sounds like he HAS tried to throw what they want.  Just because someone can throw something in the bullpen sessions doesn't mean they can in games.  My son is an amatuer pitcher (Div. II) and has hard as he works, he can't get his fastball higher than mid eightes.  So guess what--they let him throw a curve and change-up and the fastball out of the zone.  Brad Thompson is the only starting pitcher they have that came up completely through our system.  He happens to be a sinker ball pitcher.  Now what if they insisted that he throw high heat?  His record wouldn't look too good.  I say Duncan needs to go with a players strength and I'm absolutely convinced that they are not doing it with  Reyes.  So there, now I have my own long post

by jillsinmo on Jun 5, 2007 8:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank you, Jill
but your "long post" pales in comparison to my mighty powers of verbal diarrhea.  Ha!  I mock the length of your writing!  

Seriously, though, I like your point about Thompson.  What he does well is throwing a sinker.  If the next pitching coach of the Cardinals wanted all of the guys to become flyball pitchers, Thompson would get creamed.  Forcing a guy to go against his strengths is just nonsensical.  

Good luck to your son, btw.  I pitched in school, but quit after I developed a drug problem.  Tell him not to make the same mistake.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 5, 2007 8:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh...
I developed my drug problem after I quit. Or maybe before... I don't really remember.

He shouldn't do that, either.

Everybody off the bandwagon!

by Alxfritz on Jun 5, 2007 9:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for wishing my
son good luck.  He's sort of an anti-acholol nazi, but I worry about it anyway.  The only reason I put him in the discussion is that even a college coach knows you got to work with what you got.  I'll brag a little on my son-his curve is terrific and he can throw it for a strike anytime.  But his other pitches, not so much, and he is not forced to throw them when they are not "on"

by jillsinmo on Jun 5, 2007 10:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thank gawd...
..someone on this page is with me on the mechanics problem here.  It takes different wrist motions and timing to throw the 2-seamer than a 4-seamer.  It take an insane athelete to pull this shit off.  I wonder if Duncan not having a pitching background understands the significant problem this poses for pitchers.

by BigJawnMize on Jun 5, 2007 9:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Trust Me
I'm with you on the mechanics thing.  I couldn't throw a sinker to save my life.  My coaches in high tried to teach me one; I would practice it off the mound for a while, no sink.  I would go home and throw into my net, no sink.  I did, however, lose the ability to bend my arm for several days afterward.  It was, literally, one of the most painful things I can remember.  My forearm was swollen and completely bruised, almost elbow to wrist.  

Strangely enough, twenty six years old and not in playing shape anymore, now I can throw a wicked sinker.  Doesn't do me any good though.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 5, 2007 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with the mechanics issue as well...
Kindred...not a personal attack, but does having a former pitcher agree with the change in mechanics turn my point from "plain silly" to valid?

Just wondering?

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 4:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no...
... your point becomes valid when you can demonstrate that Reyes' mechanics actually have been altered by learning the 2-seam, and this is the cause for his troubles in MLB (despite his continued success in MiLB). and we've already examined that question on this site in the past and come to the conclusion, with side-by-side video evidence in support, that there hasn't been a change in Reyes' mechanics.

no offense to anyone, but i won't accept that sort of speculation as valid without harder evidence than  an anecdote from an ex-high school pitcher. if what you say is true, then there's got to be better evidence for it than that.

by kindred on Jun 5, 2007 6:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

From "plain silly" to plausible?
Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jun 5, 2007 6:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2 seam vs. sinker
Ok, here's our problem here. If you want to get REALLY technical, a "2-seam fastball" and a "sinker" are NOT the same pitch.

A 2-seam fastball is simply a fastball gripped so that only 2-seams (hence the name!) "hit" the air, and create "turbulence." Gripped like this:

This will cause the ball to "back up" or "run" to the pitcher's arm side. More lateral movement then up-and-down.  When a 2-seamer is thrown, it's just... thrown. Not manipulated at release. The arm's natural pronation after release gives it (and every pitch) it's movement.

Now, a "sinker" on the other hand, is gripped pretty much the same way, maybe with the fingers a little closer together, maybe the ball held off-center a bit. The difference comes in the release. With a sinker, you pronate (turn your palm outward) HARD on release. Almost like you're pulling your pitching arm thumb to the ground. That, combined with the natural pronation of the arm, will give the ball that little extra "oomph" or side spin and create greater air pressure on top of the ball, creating the downward sink.

I'm a pitcher. Pitched in college. Outside (VERY outside) chance I get a call in the late rounds of the draft this week. Not trying to brag, just wanting to let everybody know that I speak from experience.

I throw mainly a two-seam fastball outside to a righty (I'm left-handed). It does NOT sink. I'd like it to sink, but it doesn't. It's got great movement, great run to my arm side, but no sink. So I'm not throwing a "sinker," I'm throwing a "two-seam fastball." The question is, what is Reyes REALLY trying to throw?

by Jhusk on Jun 6, 2007 12:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"here's our problem here"
Straight from the Department of Redundancy Department.

by Jhusk on Jun 6, 2007 12:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I used to
hit that shit 400 ft in college. Kidding. Well I really did love running fastballs..

I think that's a great post, and pretty informative. However, for our purposes with Anthony we are actually talking about a sinking two-seamer. Although I'm with you that the semantics can get confusing, here's a quote that I used earlier from Miller:

   He has a tendency to throw pies. You ever throw a pie at somebody's face -- with your forearm up above your elbow? You push the thing. When you're throwing pies, it's pretty hard to throw a sinker.

Plus, there's the well-documented-on-this-site saga of Anthony pitching to contact and inducing ground balls.

Good luck with the draft this week, and let us know what happens.

by plh903 on Jun 6, 2007 1:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And because I don't
know, I'll ask you: I was under the impression that besides the release a difference in the sinker is that the thumb is held directly in the middle-underside of the ball, instead of a little off-center like a regular two-seamer. True or false?

by plh903 on Jun 6, 2007 1:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's True
When you're trying to turn the ball over, it's much easier to do so if you move the thumb closer to the pinky side of the ball.  If you keep your thumb over to the index finger side and then try to pronate, the thumb just gets in the way of the spin, and you end up with a very straight ball trajectory.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 6, 2007 6:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sinker
He is trying to throw a sinker in the pure since.  

I actually throw one now in my over 30 league.  I never used to be able to do that in high school.  Anyway, when I grip it I tuck the thumb under a bit so that the tip of the third finder and the thumb are almost touching.  I like the grip. I can choke it and take a little off or leave the ball on the finger tips and have the fingers push it a little at release...

JHusk-I was wondering how hard you pronate the hand.  I only do it just enough to get the ball to spin off the outside of the middle finger.

by BigJawnMize on Jun 6, 2007 10:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

sinker and such
About the thumb placement, I'm not 100% sure. I've never needed/tried to throw a sinker, but it would make sense that if you put the thumb more directly under the ball, it would cause a little more spin and get some sink.

As far as how hard to pronate, whenever I do try to turn the ball over and get a little extra movement, I just turn my hand just enough so that I could tell I did... If that makes sense. I'll just turn the ball over and try to pull down off the inner third of the ball.

Also, another thing I thought about. Check out Anthony's arm angle:

Chances are, it's gonna be REALLY tough to get downward movement on a fastball from that arm angle. Now, I am not at all professing to know more, as much, or half as much as Dave Duncan, but the lower the arm angle, the more lateral movement to the fastball. See Brandon Webb, who's got one of the (I think) two best sinkers in baseball, along with Derek Lowe:

Tough to tell, but see how Webb's arm angle is a bit more over the top? That, along with a bunch of other genetic blessings, helps him create that ridiculous downward flight on the baseball.

Again, I think Anthony Reyes's problems can go a long way toward being solved if he concentrates on throwing the 2-seam to his arm side, the 4-seam to his glove side, and the 4-seam anytime he elevates.

by Jhusk on Jun 6, 2007 12:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow That Was Long
I probably should have titled that 'my $.04'.  You know, I can never seem to keep anything very brief.  I think that's why my diaries don't end up with a lot of responses.  Everyone probably gets tired of reading before they get to the end.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 5, 2007 7:42 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm on the fence on this one
I see both sides of this argument.  I tend to agree with Larry, but I see Duncan's point as well.

If you guys remember, the WS start was against a cold Tiger team who seemed to be very jumpy, and IIRC, was sitting on Reyes' changeup.  In the 1st innning of that game, he got in trouble, and got out of it.  Thereafter, he attacked with his fastball, then used his changeup as his strikeout pitch...yada yada yada, we win the series.  

I see Duncan's side as well.  I'm not sure that Reyes can live off a solid, 91-94 MPH 4-seamer and a solid, not spectacular changeup, and survive in the show for a long period of time.  The 2-seamer is likely not the answer, but what is?  

I believe that Reyes has worked hard on the 2-seamer and he has not been able to master it.  For a guy that has had so much success in college and in the minors, it is undoubtedly frustrating for him to go against what has worked for him and fail.  Put yourself in his shoes - and tell me you wouldn't have the same reaction that he has had.

I also see that his delivery is not suited for a sinker.  He does not stay on top of the ball well.  He's not a tall guy, and he uses his legs quite a bit to generate power.

So what's the answer? I say you let him pitch his way in the bigs and see what happens.  I'd give him a 50/50 chance of succeeding in that situation.  

by silent_bob on Jun 5, 2007 10:02 AM EDT   0 recs

50-50 sounds about right
depending on how you define "success." if "success" means league-average or better for 2 to 3 years, then i'd put the odds at more like 65-35. if "success" means a long career with a top-of-rotation peak, then i'd put the odds at more like 25-75.

by lboros on Jun 5, 2007 11:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My 50/50 -
how about a 5 year career as a solid #3 or #4 starter with ERA+ above 100.

That'd be nice.

by silent_bob on Jun 5, 2007 1:23 PM EDT to parent up