just another suppan knockoff

by lboros on Jun 26, 2007 8:50 AM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News

here are the starting pitchers' lines for the cardinals' last two games at shea stadium:

	IP	H	R	ER	BB	SO
jeff suppan, october 19 2006	7	2	1	1	5	2	n.d.
mike maroth, june 25 2007	7.1	2	1	1	2	4	n.d.

nice of maroth to do that, because i had already been planning to write a post this morning likening him to suppan. i realize i do this a lot --- i compared ryan franklin to suppan here, and i compared miguel batista to supps here, and just last week i compared looper to him. i guess supps is such an everyman that he is similar to all pitchers; maybe that explains why his list of comparables at Baseball Reference is over 8,000 names long. . . . . ha ha ha, i kid. anyway, here's yet another "this guy is just like suppan" post; i never tire of writing them, and you never stop clamoring for them.

let's begin with their current-year numbers:

	w-l	era	whip	era+	avg	obp	slg	k/9	inn	inn/ start	qs pct	age
suppan	8-7	4.90	1.495	87	.297	.355	.464	4.3	101	6.1	38	32
maroth	5-2	4.73	1.564	89	.303	.371	.538	3.4	85.2	6.0	36	29

aside from the slugging percentage, maroth has been more or less the equal of supps this year; the rate stats are slightly worse, but the differences lie mainly in the fact that maroth has been pitching in the dh league. both guys eat innings, throw quality starts about a third of the time, and more or less keep their teams in games.

the similarity deepens as we expand the comparison over a period of years. here they are from 2004-2006:

	w-l	era	whip	era+	avg	obp	slg	k/9	inn/ start	qs pct
suppan	44-26	3.95	1.402	108	.273	.336	.432	5.2	6.0	52
maroth	30-29	4.48	1.394	98	.289	.337	.454	4.6	6.1	45

once you adjust for league, there's little to distinguish these 3-year stat lines from one another. even the apparent difference in won-loss record is probably just an illusion; suppan's teams ranked 1st, 4th, and 6th in the league in runs scored from 2004-06, while maroth's ranked 8th, 11th, and 5th. i'm too lazy to look up the actual run support each pitcher received, but suppan obviously received more --- to the benefit of his w-l mark.

it remains to be seen whether the theoretical similarity between these pitchers will manifest on the diamond. it might not --- maroth is recovering from arm surgery, similar to the one that sidelined chris carpenter (removal of bone chips in the elbow), and his peripherals look pretty shabby at the moment. but it's not unreasonable to hope that the change of leagues, coupled with distance from the injury, will raise maroth's performance into the league-average range. if it works out that way, then the cardinals' plodding, patient approach toward rebuilding the rotation --- maddening though it has been to some fans --- will look pretty good. maroth is locked up through 2008, and he'll cost less than half of what far more troubled pitchers are making via free agency. so the cards may have filled the hole in the middle of the rotation without sacrificing the payroll flexibility needed to address holes elsewhere on the team. they're only committed to maroth through age 30; suppan's contract runs through his age-35 season.

st louis did lose half a season waiting for this guy to shake loose; that is true. but better that, imho, than a bad contract that hamstrings the franchise for the next three years.

one other similarity between suppan and maroth, by the way; seems like they're both pretty good guys. read derrick goold's Bird Land post on maroth. whether or not you like the guy's pitching, you'll at least respect the type of person he is. more on maroth at tigers blog Bless You Boys. also:

the cards will activate troy percival today. he threw 6.2 innings at memphis, gave up 1 run, struck out 9, walked 5.
the cards' other memphis reclamation, tomo ohka, threw a decent game last night: 8 innings, 8 hits, 4 runs (3 earned). he only fanned 2, however, and gave up a homer. the cards have to make a decision on him now --- if they don't activate him, he can walk away from the deal. the results are pretty inconclusive so far; it's thought that the cards might ask ohka to extend the trial period for another start or two. if he forces a decision, i'd say the cardinals have no choice but to cut him loose --- especially now that they have maroth.
also on the rehab watch: carp may make his first minor-league start next week, and looper may rejoin the rotation as early as this weekend.
edmonds is getting cortisone shots now; he's the new larry walker.
the cubs' fans have come unhinged.
jeff weaver is f*cking sick of this sh*t, godd*mnit.

Tweet Comment 122 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

One difference...

...between Maroth and Supps is that the former throws an 86 mph fastball; the latter consistently hits 90-91. They're arsenals are very similar (fastball + whole bunch of different offspeed stuff covering both sides of the plate), but, it seems to me that Supps has a much better fastball.

I wonder if Maroth's 86 is due to the injury, or if he's always been at that level.

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 26, 2007 8:53 AM EDT reply actions

Good point

I think he may throw a little harder, but not 90-92...

One other point this brings up (only one start I realize). If Maroth made the Mets look this bad after having an okay season in the DH league, what about Buerhle?

A stretch maybe, but if any other NL teams were paying attention last night, the MB sweepstakes could take another huge step. If that is the case, please please don't mortgage the farm Walt and wait until the offseason.

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions

I doubt the injury is the reason

He just had bone chips removed, and he had them removed last season.

If your theory is true, be ready for Carp to come out throwing a 90-91 mph 4-seamer.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions

Honestly...

...If Carp throws 90-91 that might be a blessing....I remember lboros posting something about Carp's performance coming back from a similar elbow-scope in 1999 (i think that's the year) - and the results were not pretty.

This must be borne in mind, as the drum-beat of "Here comes Carp, we are thus saved!" marches on...

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 26, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Carp had bone chips removed

in 1999 after the season and he had trouble coming back the next season due to some pain. Remember he ended up with the torn labrum in 2002. The shoulder was probably an issue in the 2002 as well.

Good signs right now: a) Carp had no complaints of pain before surgery, b) and has had little to no discomfort since the surgery. This bodes well.

He'll be fine when he comes back. Just don't expect any more than 6+ innings or 90 pitches from him this year.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions

sorry

the shoulder was probably an underlying issue in the 2000 season as well

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions

Of course

dominant Carp (if he's still around) can throw 8 or 9 innings on 90 pitches.

This is like 1988, only without Jim Lindeman. Could we get Jim Lindeman, please?

by Alxfritz on Jun 26, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Just a thought

Since he had no pain while actually throwing before he had them removed and hasn't had any afterwards, I can't really imagine why he wouldn't be 100% stuff wise. There's nothing to relearn, he was throwing with the right mechanics and had his stuff and whatnot.

Only 90 pitches? Why? He's not going to come back in 3 weeks and be able to go 120 or anything, but if you take the rehab starts as spring training and the month or so afterward as April, he should be able to "max out" on pitch counts by September 1. Am I missing something?

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 26, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

You don't think

he'll be on a pitch count? With this regime? C'mon now.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions

He'd BETTER be on a

damn pitch count!

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 26, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Can we really...

...take at face-value the Cardinals proclamations that his side-sessions have produced 'zero' pain...or even, he was pain-free before surgery.

We heard a lot of soothing, 'it's going to be OK' rhetoric before they decided to put him under the knife.

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 26, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Chris has said he had no pain

he said the same before the surgery. Chris had nothing structurally wrong with his body, other than 'foreign objects' floating around in his elbow.

Having those there caused inflamation. Removing them should have fixed that.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions

If you read this blog

you've seen my numerous posts regarding Carpenter's injury.

There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary here. Carp has been quoted directly.

He had elbow swelling and loss of range of motion prior to surgery. Period.

No reason to suspect any misrepresenting of the facts here, IMO.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Allrighty...

...call me eternally skeptical. I hope you are correct.

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 26, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions

What impressed me the most

The Mets were hitting above .300 on the year vs. lefties. I guess the Cards aren't the only team that has trouble with the 'soft-tossing' variety.

Two pick offs, no real facial change all year, a sac bunt, and a hit...where you been hiding MM? Good point that we had to wait half a year to get him, but wow, how bout a contract extension for him?

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 9:04 AM EDT reply actions

not to mention...

a stolen base...

by billyhoyel on Jun 26, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Wow.....

I posted in the diary on the right that he seemed like a good guy from his blog in that he thanked the fans, the organization, and said all the right things for a guy who was leaving. I didn't doubt his sincerity one bit, but now he earned a even higher level of respect from me.

Bird land kind of made me feel lazy and complacent. A good person is someone who sees an opportunity right in front of them to help and puts the connection together. A great person is someone who turns their problem into an opportunity for others.

I think we got one of the great ones.

by Brock20 on Jun 26, 2007 9:04 AM EDT reply actions

Does anyone else think

that this Maroth signing almost assuredly means that the Cards WILL NOT go after Mark Buerhle, at least in terms of a trade this year?...if not even as a FA next year? As early as September, there'll be 2 lefty starters in the rotation.

Does anyone think we'll be seeing a rotation with 3 LHP next year?

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 9:16 AM EDT reply actions

Trade Reyes for MB maybe

As much as the three lefties differ, I could see an 08 rotation of

Carp
MB
Mulder
Maroth
Wainer

Now that would be impressive

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions

With nobody knocking down the door

Memphis hasn't provided a big (or any) push in starters, and Reyes doesn't appear to be in the plans for the Cardinals. Give Blake, Garcia, and possible Ottavino another year of prep in 08, and they can fight for spots in 09.

Carp
MB
Wainer

Plus two young guys look quite strong heading into the future.

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Burwell in the PD

Burwell said this morning in the Post Dispatch, that the Cardinals have offered Reyes, J-Rod and some other player for MB.

by gonzostl on Jun 26, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions

more telling than just that...

The trade of Reyes plus others (skip shu, j-rod, etc)wouldn't just be a blockbuster trade - it'd be a clear indication of who's in charge.

This trade only happens if Jocketty is truly making the calls, IMHO. I don't see Lunhow making this trade.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jun 26, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions

The problem is

Reyes is 0-9. I'm not sure the White Sox want him at this point. I suppose it might help that he pitched that one-hitter against them last year, so they know what he's capable of, but still, we might have to throw more in at this point to get them to overlook his current record.

by john vb on Jun 26, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

buying low

It may be that more than a few of us Reyes-homers here still believe that his minor league pedigree is indicative of his talent level. I'd make that trade in an instant. They'd have a cost-controlled pitcher with #3 upside for 5 years in exchange for a 2-month rental that wasn't going to resign with them anyway. Reyes is a better bet than early draft picks given how developed he is.

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions

His minor league pedigree...

...and his flashes of sheer brilliance.

We're talking about a guy who had a one-hitter last year and completely dominated a game of the World Series. One of which was against the White Sox, the other was against a division rival.

by whopperman on Jun 26, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions

a couple games...

Extrapolating a pither's long-term value based upon a small subset of games is dangerous. Ask the Phillies about Bud Smith. The overwhelming evidence shows Reyes to be a risky proposition.

"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jun 26, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Was Bud Smith

a REALLY good minor league pitcher?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

snark aside

do you believe that minor league numbers have any kind of predictive value or do you think there's some tangible reason that you think Reyes won't succeed?

it's near impossible to get a rationale response re: Reyes from you anymore HL

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions

There was no snark

I don't think Bud Smith is near the pitcher AReyes is.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions

apologies tendered then

perhaps I'm the irrational one

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Let me clean it up

My point was that 'small sample' size isn't what Anthony Reyes has. At the Major League level, ya, he's produced about as much as Bud Smith. However, without looking at Smith's stats, I doubt he had such a positive MiLB career that Reyes has had.

If Reyes had NEVER been called up to St. Louis, he'd more than likely be considered one of the top pitching prospects in baseball. He's just faired so poorly at the MLB level that his stock is going down.

He'll get through it, somewhere else. Sometimes a pitcher can't suceed without a change of scenery. I think he can be an effective #4 starter in the AL.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions

the name Bud Smith always makes me somewhat ill

my first Cards game in person was a Bud Smith/Luther Hackman special in which they lost to the Mariners 10-0.

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 26, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions

The white sox can get

compensatory draft picks

trade for prospects

I'm not saying Reyes is the best offer they will get but if you can get a developed prospect rather than a draft pick, I would in this instance since Buerhle doesn't look like he will resign.

And it's not really extrapolating on a small sample size given that Reyes has 200+ innings at the AAA level. He also struck out 2+ more batters per 9 than Smith and walked 1 less per nine. The comparison really doesn't apply.

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I think

Reyes still has some value. He's a young pitcher who is close, but just hasn't managed to put all the pieces together yet. In a lot of respects, he's better than a lot of AAA prospects who haven't yet pitched in the big leagues. A lot of young pitchers struggle early in their career.

I'm not saying Reyes will be a great pitcher. But I think the possibility still remains that he can be a good pitcher and, b/c he's young and cheap and has had some success at the big league level, he has some value, especially for a GM hoping to get players he can plug in TODAY!

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Could I throw a name out here.....

Brad Radke. That's the kind of career I think Reyes is capable of. I really don't know why LaDunc doesn't want to work with him. I get the sense that Dyar Miller is frustrated....he's probably thinking, I sent you a guy who's ready to go---why are you insisting he change everything about the way he pitches? Look at the game Jorge Sosa threw last night....he was really good. While I know he didn't pitch well last year, he only pitched 30 innings, probably trying to throw the way they wanted him to, only to give up taters. They never considered him as a starter. I keep saying and kind of hoping that they change LaDunc--I really think that they have lost the ability to evaluate talent. I know Sosa may turn back into a pumpkin. But until he does, the Mets have got themselves a cheap memeber of their starting rotation. I really think it's time to stop the "Duncan is a genius" talk. I know how everyone feels about Marquis around here, but Lou has figured out just the right time to pull him, and is getting decent results with him.

by jillsinmo on Jun 26, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions

throw out a different name

Radke was never a strikeout pitcher. that's not a good comp.

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Marquis?

To get decent results last year you'd have had to pull Marquis halfway through the first.

I may agree with a point or 2 here, but Marquis is the wrong example to use.

by sdrone on Jun 26, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Okay, you both are right.....

when I said Brad Radke, I was thinking 4-5 guy in the rotation, just stick him in there and he'd be steady as you go at a league average rate. Minnesota is a launching pad, don't think it would be Anthony's kind of place, but that's the kind of career I think he's going to have. And yeah, Jason does have trouble at the start, but when he manages to gut through it (and he has this year) then make sure you keep a close eye on him, he has his uses.

by jillsinmo on Jun 26, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Williams wants major-leage ready talent

And we are rather short on that except Reyes. Sure J-Rod and Ankiel could be added, but I really think the White Sox will want one of the big three at Springfield. Anderson could very well be the deal breaker.

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions

The big 3 at Springfield

aren't major league ready. Maybe a year from now, but if Williams wants "major league ready" talent, Reyes is there and the AA players aren't.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions

My point exactly

Who else do we have that somebody would want? Look at the whole Memphis roster???

I really don't think we have enough to get MB unless the change of scenery argument can sway the Sox. J-Rod isn't going to be anyone's outfield solution, and we have spare parts everywhere else. Even if we were to offer Dove, Cate, or Cavazos in the package, somebody else is going to pony up more. Just my opinion.

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions

i think it's foolish

to expect that MMulder to back in September. If he can make it, great. But the smart bet is against such optimism.

"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jun 26, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions

I think he'll be back before Sept...

...the real question is - will he be effective? I lean toward a resounding no!

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 26, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions

Arbitrary Observations from Mets game 1

Had great seats at the game last night, directly behind home plate (but in an upper level) and thought that I would pass along some observations. Take them for what you will, it is very possible that the TV showed some stuff I wasn't able to see.

From what I could see, Maroth really had 3 pitches last night - the fastball (81-85 on the stadium gun) and the change-up (73-75) both of which he seemed to have decent command of last night...and the slider, which seems to be his out pitch (and works especially well on lefties - he made Delgado look silly) as it tails out of the zone (not sure any of the ones he threw last night would have actually been strikes). He seemed to work both sides of the plate, and I liked to see that he went inside on the first pitch to a number of batters. From above, it looked like he was being pretty aggressive, and I liked it. I will note that I was pretty disappointed with the Gomez HR. The first meaty, hanging fastball that Maroth threw was hit for a LONG just-foul ball...I was surprised that Maroth would throw it again only 2 pitches later as Gomez was likely waiting for it, and he took it deep. That pitch selection really bothered me (as it did again when Russ Springer had almost the exact same interaction with Green - HUGE foul ball, 2 pitches later he goes back to the fastball, and the waiting Green takes it deep to win). Anyone think that Yadi would have called it slightly differently - or was it just bad pitching...couldn't see where Bennett was set-up.

So Taguchi looked good even though he KOd twice, surprisingly. His first AB of the game lasted 10 pitches, and he really looked comfortable at the plate (until his last at bat).

Ryan Franklin looked really good, not letting a batter reach base in just under 3 innings. Perhaps it was the velocity increase in fastball that threw the Mets off a bit (10mph faster than Maroth) but he did look good.

That's about it. Looking forward to being at the next 3 games, even if I do have to see Wellemyer tonight.

by sdelek on Jun 26, 2007 9:17 AM EDT reply actions

So Maroth can't throw 90 mph?

Looks like Shea Stadium had him at 81 - 85 mph. I don't think ESPN ever showed him above 87 or 88 mph.

I think I saw the MEts pitcher hit 90 mph or 91 mph on the ESPN gun, and I thought he threw harder than that. I was assuming the ESPN gun was slow.

by sdrone on Jun 26, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Billy Wagner

I recall it showing Wagner around 97 a few times...

by billyhoyel on Jun 26, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions

On the ESPNHD

broadcast, Maroth hit 88 and 89 a few times.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions

He hit

88 5 times and 89 once.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions

FWIW

I charted Maroth's pitches last night as my regular pitcher, Looper, is on the DL and it seemed like Maroth replaced Looper in the rotation. Maroth clearly had 4 pitches that he threw effectively last night. He had a 4 seamer that he threw from 86-88. He threw a 2 seamer in the low 80's. It was his best pitch, IMO.

He also threw a curve ball that, like Suppan, he threw at different speeds. Early in the game he threw a slow curve at 73-75 and later, in the 6th maybe, he threw it harder w/ more side-to-side break at 76-79. It was almost like a slider. And he also threw the change at 73-75. Sometimes it was difficult to distinguish the change from the curve.

He is really skilled, considering the fact that he could throw so many pitches, at different speeds, work both sides of the plate, and stay around the knees so often. When he gets the ball in the middle of the plate, he's going to get beat b/c he can't really throw it past anyone. But I was really impressed w/ what he was able to do w/ his curve -- the Mets had to be too.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions

thanks for the report; very interesting

by CurtFlood on Jun 26, 2007 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Nice report

In answer to your question re the game winner that Green hit...Bennett set up on the outside, but Springer's pitch sailed low and inside, right into Green's wheelhouse.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 26, 2007 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions

"hamstring tendinitis"

what a load of crap.

It's sciatica. And if they're shooting him up with cortisone, he very well may have a herniated lumbar disc. Hopefully the disc is just bulging and irritated.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 9:18 AM EDT reply actions

I was referring to Jimmy

and his "diagnosis" which put him on the DL.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions

I've had sciatica

and nothing short of inactivity made mine go away. Of course, I couldn't afford any cortisone shots(no health insurance)...

"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jun 26, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions

i have had it too

and i can tell u this, the meds i am on for it, there is no way a guy could play any kind of ball on them, i am lucky to walk straight, much less do something where u need good coordination

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 26, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Percival up?

But who goes down? Cavazos I would imagine. Springer is having a good season, and I won't doubt TLR on the move....

...but I could really picture Percival after Franklin last night.

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 9:20 AM EDT reply actions

Izzy- again

I would've liked to see him. I know we have a full week's worth of games, but I sure like how Randolph uses his bullpen. I know we don't have a guy like Heilman, but with Percival coming back, Izzy could've gone 2 innings last night.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions

So true

really tired of seeing Izzy used mainly as a mop-up guy just to get him work. The lack of 'real' save situations isn't good for him. I have always found that he pitches better when the game is truly on the line.

That's why if it is a 2 or 3 run lead when he comes in...a few walks and ta da, all up to him ;)

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 26, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree 100%

I don't understand how you can lose an extra inning game and your best reliever never get into the game. Unless Izzy was unavailable for some reason that we don't know of, he should have been in the game.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

man, it would have been nice to use either Percival or Izzy and still have the other 'in the chamber'.

God, our bullpen just got really good. When Franklin can go 2+ innings, Percival 1+ and Izzy 1+, we shouldn't give up a lead after 6 innings.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Isn't Cate still up...

...and wouldn't he go down before Cavazos?

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 26, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions

probably not since he's the second

lefty in the pen with TJ on the DL.

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Interesting, though

that Maroth was wearing Cate's #46 last night. Maybe they made a deal so that Maroth could wear 46 and Cate could get something in return. Or maybe Cate will be the one sent down when Percival's activated.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Carp's rehab

Is Carp Memphis bound I suppose? Any thoughts on his chances of going to Springfield?

Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jun 26, 2007 9:42 AM EDT reply actions

carp

Redbirds in memphis july 4-8, springfield home 4-9

Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jun 26, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions

Last night's game

was lost when we had runners on 2nd and 3rd and no-freakin'-body out and couldn't score... However, we're relying on So Taguchi, Aaron Miles, and Scott Speizio there! Yeah, So and Miles have been hot lately; but that's still three "bench" players in a key spot. Not knockin' TLR or those players; ya gotta play the guys ya got...

I feel a little sorry for that Cubs fan who snapped... many's the time I've yelled the same thing at the TV when it's my team foulin' up! I'd never charge the field, however... with my "speed", it'd take me at least two full innings just to get there!!!

And good for Jeff Weaver... I don't wish the guy ill, although I think he (or Scott "Evil Genius" Boras) made a mistake by not re-upping with the Cards. Last night's Mariners game showed "Spicoli's" competitive spirit that we Cardfans saw in October!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 26, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions

Jeff Weaver's splits

Month  W L    IP    ERA

April  0 4  11.1  18.27

May    0 2  10.2  10.13

June   2 0  24.2   1.82

by john vb on Jun 26, 2007 11:04 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah, Weaver seems to have found

his mojo. Too bad we couldn't have gotten him when he refused to go to the minors.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions

I would love to see.....

what the Tigers would trade us for BOTH Franklin and Isringhausen.

by stanchar @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 26, 2007 12:56 PM EDT reply actions

Was at the game last night . . .

Good game all around. I was surprised the Mets didn't come out with a bit more intensity given what happened the last time these two teams faced each other on this field. Maroth looked good to me. I agree with all of the Suppan comparisons, and Suppan always gets compared to the Glavine and Maddux types that don't need great stuff to get a win. That's what I saw in Maroth last night - a guy that uses excellent location and changing of speeds to keep hitters of balance. That was a Mets team that had just scored 10 runs in Oakland on Sunday to finish off a sweep. I for one am thrilled with the trade. Is there any more credible information about who we are giving up for him?

As for the game --- I don't know how Springer throws that pitch to Green after Green destroyed that pitch foul earlier in the at bat. I know you don't want to walk the lead-off guy, but it seems like he could have been a bit more careful there. In any event, its hard to complain about a pitching staff that gives up three hits over eleven innings to what is almost certainly the best offense in the NL.

Most importantly, I caught my first foul ball. Perhaps I did celebrate a little too long, but I've been waiting 28 years for that, so I felt I had earned it. The Shea crowd really let me have it. Most of the taunts were "Taguchi sucks" (I was sporting #99's jersey), to which I responded "Ask Billy Wagner if Taguchi sucks" and "Is it his 17 game hitting streak that sucks, or that game tying RBI?" It was all in good fun though, I've been to Shea probably seven times in the last two years, and I've never had anything but good experiences. I'm getting tired of seeing walk-off HR's by the home team, though. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had been in the stands for Game 7 last year Beltran would not have left that bat on his shoulder.

The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away and the infield is the same except first, second, third and short are playing him to pull. -- Mike Shannon

by MUTiger on Jun 26, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions

Maroth

looked good last night. Especially loved his two pick-offs - very slick. All the comparisons to Suppan had me thinking, "I hope he is a post-season warrior like Sup." Provided we ever get to the post-season again, of course. But since he was left off the Tigers WS roster, we don't have any clues.

Looks like our old friend, Jeff Weaver, is trending up after last night (and a second consecutive win). But I still think he would have been better if he stayed in the NL.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 26, 2007 1:31 PM EDT reply actions

What's Maroth's contract situation?

I see he has just over 4 years of ML service. Is he a free agent this winter or is he under our control?

by sdrone on Jun 26, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions

free agent

after 08 season

"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jun 26, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

re: cubs fans

The narration in this video is priceless.

I love how the guy blames the fan's drunkenness on the team....

by nota bene on Jun 26, 2007 2:28 PM EDT reply actions

Apparently

the guy missed the fact that the Cubs scored two runs in the bottom of the ninth to win the game. Who is the bigger idiot - the drunk who rushed the mound or the guy narrating the action on the TV? Seems like a toss-up to me.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 26, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions

there's

something very Superfans about it....must be the accent....

by nota bene on Jun 26, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions

And do we know

the guy was drunk? Granted, he was a Cubs fan at Wrigley so the odds are in the favor of "drunk" but he's just making an assumption there. And, if that's a choke, then the 2 run comeback in the bottom of the 9th must be one of the greatest comebacks in baseball history.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

It's like they are just trying to tease me

White Sox Planted Buehrle To Boston Rumor

Keith Law, on ESPNEWS yesterday, reported that the Mark Buehrle-to-Boston rumor is bogus and almost certainly planted by the White Sox front office. Couldn't hurt to try, unless the plant damages relations with the Red Sox in the future. This type of practice is probably more common than we realize, though.

Furthermore, Tony Massarotti of the Boston Herald says the Red Sox are out of this thing (if they were ever really in it). By the way, the reason for the refusal to allow a 72-hour negotiating window: Buehrle's likelihood of signing with St. Louis after the season.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 2:51 PM EDT reply actions

I was going to make

some kind of smartass remark about Iboros' "just another Suppan" obsession, but the more I think about guys like Suppan, the more I marvel at the value of starting pitchers who don't suck. Yes, it's great to have pitchers like Clemens, Big Unit, Pedro, etc. in their primes, but it's amazing how far you can go if you can build a rotation of 5 just average starters, and merely avoid having any who suck. That's why I like the Maroth trade, not that he excites me at all, but by not being subpar he makes us stronger.

Now the thought of a rotation in 2008 with Carp, Buerhle and Wainwright (whom I still expect big things from), DOES get me excited.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 26, 2007 3:16 PM EDT reply actions

What is Mark Mulder?

Chopped liver? :D

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Why yes, yes he is.

Or at least, he might be. Until we're sure his arm won't fall off when he takes the mound, he assumes Ankiel-in-the-outfield status for me, i.e., he doesn't exist.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 26, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

More like chopped cuff

Don't get your hopes too high about Mulder. The track record of pitchers recovering from surgery for a torn cuff is abysmal. A full tear almost certainly means your ML career is over. A partial tear puts your career firmly in the "endangered" category. Very few have recovered to become effective starters.

by Hungry Jack on Jun 26, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

But in order

to get excited and stay true to your point (5 decent starters are necessary), we need two more decent guys. Assume Maroth to be one, who is the other? Reyes? Presumably he's gone if we're getting Buerhle by trade. Bloop?

Seems like your argument leads to a strategy of avoiding high $ pitchers (while refusing to settle for scrap heap reclamation projects) and instead putting that $ to hitters. Which sounds pretty reasonable to me.

by awpierce on Jun 26, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Assuming everything goes accord. to plan

and Buehrle WAS aquired, the rotation from mid-August on:

Chris Carpenter
Mark Buehrle
Mark Mulder
Mike Maroth
Adam Wainwright

If healthy, that could be one of the best rotations in the NL.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Of course

Carpenter
Reyes
Mulder
Maroth
Wainwright

could be one of the best rotations in the NL too, and then next year the Cardinals could spend the money they'd be spending on Buehrle on somebody who can actually hit the ball

. Reyes put up better numbers in the minors than Wainwright, was regarded as the better prospect, and apparently had just as much Magic Playoff Pull-through-itiveness last year. Their peripherals are extremely similar this season. I don't get why they're viewed so differently, they've both got pretty much the same chance of developing into a very good pitcher.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 26, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Reyes was 50/50 in the postseason

he had a stellar start against Detroit in the World Series, but he had a vomit inducing start against the Mets that I witnessed in person at Busch III.

Reyes may turn out to be better than Wainwright in his career. Their periphs this season are very close, however Wainwright apparently has figured out how to get himself out of jams. Reyes ERA is over 2 runs higher than Wainwright's.

Putting a 0-9 (probably going to 0-10) starter as the #2 in the rotation, one of the best NL rotations does not make.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Wainwright

since overcoming that 'tendinitis' or whatever it was he had:

6 starts
2.85 ERA
.231 avg against
14.27 pitches per inning
4.39 K/9
7.90 H/9
1.12 WHiP
.353 SLG against
.281 OBP against

His downfall has been giving up a higher rate of gopher balls, however it appears he is progressing much faster than Reyes.

Reyes needs a big game on Wednesday against the Mets. In his 2 starts back, he's been getting pummeled, with an ERA almost at 10.00.

Reyes has better stuff than Wainwright, I'm not going to dispute that. He's just not very effective at using it this year.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions

4.39 K/9

doesn't seem to me to be a major sign of progress.

Anyway, sure Reyes hasn't gotten "out of jams" this year but I can't think of a pitcher who has ever struggled with that over an entire career or even over an entire season. There's a reason DIPS ERA/FIP/DICE correlates so well with ERA, and it's because mental toughness or getting out of jams etc. doesn't usually vary that much among pitchers over a large sample size.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 26, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Right now I think

Wainwright is focusing on getting ground balls to get out of jams. As he matures as a pitcher, he'll learn better how to go for the strikeout. Certainly he has the stuff to strike people out -- he's focused now on ending ABs quicker. His k/9 will improve.

BTW, his k/9 is higher than Andy Pettitte's and higher than Dan Haren's was in his first season as a starter. He'll be OK.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions

I'll dispute that Reyes

has better stuff than Wagonmaker. They're very different pitchers, but until Reyes comes up with a bender that's even half as good as Wainwright's, my $$$ is on Adam.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 26, 2007 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow

All those guys healthy sure look exciting on paper.

by paCardsFan on Jun 26, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

not as exciting as

you know who.

.500 here we come...

by effin fisk on Jun 26, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions

M

mmm... the killer 'M's

by billyhoyel on Jun 26, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions

What about big Z?

I thought Yadi was going to be his next catcher, and I'm pretty sure we ain't tradin' him to the Cubs.

;-)

by Big Red on Jun 26, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I would love to have

Zambrano--he brings passion, fire, often great pitching, and a great SWITCH-HITTING bat...and I don't care if he hit Barrett--Barrett needed someone to knock the snot out of him for his bad bad defensive play and bad base running. Barrett got into it with their golden boy Rich Hill too. Z would be so fun to watch too.....

by jillsinmo on Jun 26, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't misunderstand me,

I'd prefer 3 non-sucky guys plus 2 Cy Young-caliber guys; I'm just saying that in most years (not all), the 5-average-guy rotation isn't a season-killer.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 26, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Ankiel

hit another home run today. I'm as big a Juan backer as there is on the internet, but there has to be a market for borderline-average right fielders signed relatively cheaply who can play center field, right?

by DanUpBaby on Jun 26, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions

He sure would be a nice stop-gap for Dye

when the White Sox trade him away...right? :D

Reyes
JuanEnc
Rodriguez
Anderson

for Buehrle?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

just what I need

another trade in which a hitting catcher who is one of my favorite prospects, a struggling pitching prospect, and some useful parts go to an AL team for a left-handed pitcher who's about to become a free agent.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 26, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions

No chance would I give up Anderson

for Buerhle.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 26, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions

I would

And I wouldn't even think twice about it.

by Big Red on Jun 26, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Not until

an extension is done. I'm not sure what I would be willing to pay for him, but he will probably demand 12/yr for 5 yrs min.

by ZiggyG on Jun 26, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Of players in the PCL with ISO's over .200

Ankiel has the 3rd highest ISO
Ankiel walk % is the 3rd lowest
Of those 28 players only 8 are 25yrs or under

Using wOBA from firstinning.com (.340 is average, .400 is great) Ankiel is .357 or a little better than average

It's also worth noting that the PCL as a whole marginally inflates HRs

Rick has shown some great power but he has holes in his swing that major league pitchers would most likely feast on. I just don't think he's ready for the bigs.

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Slick Rick

would get a steady diet of breaking balls - even in fastball counts. (the big difference between pitching in the show and AAA)

And he'd probably look pretty silly - for awhile.

I tell you what, I've been amazed by Lil Dunc's improvement in that area. Maybe with Ankiel's legendary athleticism, he'd make quick adjustments as well.

by silent_bob on Jun 26, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions

It was a bomb too

Easily 420 feet. Majestic McGwire-type moonshot too.

by whopperman on Jun 26, 2007 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Reyes gets the start tonight over Wellemeyer

According to Bernie/Goold. My guess is Wellemeyer going to the DL and Percival being activated.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 26, 2007 4:26 PM EDT reply actions

Scratch that...

Bernie just said TLR filled out the lineup card wrong and Wellemeyer starts tonight after all.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 26, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

HA!

How often does that happen?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 26, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions

he filled out the lineup card wrong?

Sounds like he changed his mind....how often do typos on a lineup card happen with a guy as OCD as he is?

by nota bene on Jun 26, 2007 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

And no Rolen tonight again.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions

when do you guys work?

I spend much of my work time just reading this amazing baseball-stat geek poetry... and contribute nothing but smart ass remarks, whereas you aforementioned baseball stat geeks are contributing, well, stats. is everyone on this blog (besides me, of course) independently wealthy and able to track this data?

...okay, back to writing proposals...

Just remember -- if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off

by RosevilleRedbird on Jun 26, 2007 4:28 PM EDT reply actions

I don't write here a ton

But I am an under-utilized administrative assistant and I spend a large portion of my workday browsing this site (and others like it), plus researching various tangents that run through my ADD-led brain.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jun 26, 2007 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd read a book...

or take a nap but it'd be more obvious that I was slacking off.

by guayzimi on Jun 26, 2007 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I work

from August to early June. I'm a teacher. That gives me plenty of time during baseball season to dick around w/ baseball stuff.

by chuckb on Jun 26, 2007 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions

In Walt We Trust...

Mr. Jocketty's caught hell for letting the rotation deteriorate to where it was a couple weeks ago, but this Maroth pickup is shaping up as a savvy response to the overheated free agent market this spring.

If Maroth is just in the same ballpark as Suppan, he's a nice plug-in for Supp's "spot." He's younger and eligible for arbitration next year - yet another in a great line of mid-season acquisitions.

What Walt (& Tony) do a great job of is managing the entire season. 9.5 games will be a lot to make up in the division, but even if we come up short, we'll be in a better position than if we'd poured resources into a Jason Schmidt type.

by bgodar on Jun 26, 2007 5:04 PM EDT reply actions

roster move

won't they have to also drop someone from the 40-man roster to make room for Percival as well as send someone down, out or to the DL?

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 26, 2007 5:08 PM EDT reply actions

are we maybe blowing Mikes start up a little?

just wondering. i was as happy as any one else about his start, and even did my own gushing review of the guy. but today i'm worried we've all blown his start last night out of perportion. i don't know. maybe it's just the pessimist in me. or this team this season has just made mean learn that nothing is as it seams. dont want to bring every one down, but we're alomst 10 games back of the brew crew who are back to their wining ways. the Cards dont have the talent to compete this year. every one is hurt, or old and busted.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 26, 2007 5:10 PM EDT reply actions

Maybe

But I think we're also excited to see an actual starting pitcher last night.

by Big Red on Jun 26, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions

We might be

but hey, we're searching for positives on this pitching staff.

by sdrone on Jun 26, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, we are so starved for a good performance

and I hope we behave when he hits the rough spot that all pitchers do. It was a great game he pitched last night. Now if you want to talk about how the offense played, I'd just say not so good.

by jillsinmo on Jun 26, 2007 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it's not so much

his initial effort last night. But all things point to him being a 6 innings plus pitcher most of the time he takes the ball.
And with our rotation in such poor shape, THAT is like a glass of water in the desert.

by CurtFlood on Jun 26, 2007 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Terry Evans

This is from a BP chat with Joe Sheehan

Jamie (Olney, MD): So this Terry Evans dude, think he can stick with the Halos long-term? What do you think of him?

Joe Sheehan: I think he had a ten walks and 60 strikeouts in 257 ABs at Triple-A, and as nice as the power was, that tells me most of what I need to know about him as a hitter.

He's kind of the opposite of Reggie Willits in a lot of ways, and I guess I could see the two as a supercheap platoon in left field for a few seasons, with both serving as d-reps for Vladimir Guerrero and Gary Matthews as those two age.

by Carps on Jun 26, 2007 5:34 PM EDT reply actions