All this talk of WJ, TLR, Dunc leaving......

by stltxfan on Jun 23, 2007 2:54 AM EDT Comment 29 comments

..I don't get it. Why are so many people on this blog so quick to get rid of them? I have been a Cardinal fan since my first game as a 5 year old in 1968. I learned how to read so I could read Cardinal boxscores. I am old and hardcore. Why does everyone here want to get rid of the team that has brought 6 post seasoon births in 7 years? Should we have signed Schmidt or Zito for their money? How's that worked out?
I think WJ and TLR are doing the best they can with what they have and what they can smartly do.
They are the architects of the greatest run in the history of Cardinal baseball. You disagree? Take a look at http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/
The runs of the of the other decades and championships are nice, but nothing compares in the modern era.
I have lived in TX for 11 years and follow the Rangers. How's that for perspective? You don't think the Ranger franchise would jump on the chance to get WJ, TLR and Dunc in a heartbeat?
Viva El Birdos, let's not let the best thing we've ever had go away if we can help it!

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Uh....

I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. Yes, I agree, there is too much sentiment to get rid of TLR. If you listen to talk radio for about an hour, someone will call in and talk about firing him and bring in another manager. Heck, there is A LOT of callers who want to bring Whitey back.

I think the sentiment yesterday was that if I were Walt, I would leave as well. They money is not being spent of players on him. Go somewhere where the commitment is being made, you're not being undercut at every turn, and you are at least getting paid.

by Brock20 on Jun 23, 2007 8:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Greatest runs of Cardinal (St Louis) Baseball

Perhaps its a technicality, but I'd say this run ranks no higher than 3rd for greatest in Cardinal history. I realize it all depends on the metrics one uses to rank greatness, But the 40s were a pretty amazing decade in St Louis as were the much overlooked 1880s.

by Zubin on Jun 23, 2007 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What was so great about the 1880's?

Polio?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you look at the link I provided???

The 1880s brought the Cardinals (Browns):

Five of their six highest 6-year winning percenatges ranging from .650 to .676, including the top three.

Four straight pennants from 1885-1888.

A World Championship in 1886.

Without a doubt that was the most dominant stretch of St Louis baseball their ever was.

by Zubin on Jun 23, 2007 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The browns aren't the cardinals...

the browns were a separate entity who later played in the american league

BLaw.

by Dttl89 on Jun 23, 2007 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not true

The Brown Stockings of 1882 turned into the Browns from 1883 to 1898, at which point they switched to red lettering and became the Perfectos. Some lady said "Oh what a lovely shade of Cardinal" while looking at the uniform, and they've been known as the Cardinals since 1900.

In 1902, the Milwaukee Brewers moved to St. Louis and began playing as the St. Louis Browns until moving to Baltimore in 1954...two different franchises.

by whopperman on Jun 23, 2007 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Whopperman

I could have hardly put it better.

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish

they were still the perfectos. I also wish these bikes were stll in style.

This is like 1988, only without Jim Lindeman. Could we get Jim Lindeman, please?

by Alxfritz on Jun 25, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am a biker...

Thank goodness for gears.

The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Jun 25, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As great as the '40's were...

The Cards were so good in the 40's in large part because the league was hurt so significantly by the war.

It was still a great run, but the competition during the run wasn't nearly what it is now.

by whopperman on Jun 23, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but in the

recent era the Cardinals has benefited from a weak division in a weak league and in the 1880s the Browns similarly benefited from a weak league.

by Zubin on Jun 23, 2007 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

as with any decision ...

the question comes down to the alternatives IMHO. The Roman Triumvirate of TLR / Walt / Dunc has done a good job with the Cardinal empire. But is their strategy suited for the team going forward? Sorry, it's a business and the past only has value as being predictive of the future.

TLR is, by and large, a manager of veterans. He prefers using our farm system to acquire vets. Walt is a bargain shopper in the FA market whose main acquisitions have been vet trades using the farm system as the trade chips. Essentially, Walt's strategy appears directed by the managerial preferences of TLR. D. Duncan ... what more can be said. He eschews young pitchers at all costs and prefers for them to cut their teeth in the pen before being trusted in the rotation. I won't even get into the pitch to contact controversy.

The Cards are a mid-market team but at the high end of that class. We'll never have the payroll to buy championships year in, year out. Part of our core has to be homegrown and cheap for us to compete. Team VP Jeff Luhnow is the guy brought in the grow the talent on the farm. But what happens to that talent? Is it used as trade bait or do we play the kids?

The story of A. Reyes, to my eyes, is a microcosm for this debate. If A. Reyes ends up being the PTBNL in the Mike Maroth trade, we'll know ownership still backs TLR / Walt / Dunc at this time. Packaging Dan Haren (far and away our best pitching prospect at the time) with a spare setup man (Kiko Calero) and our best hitting prospect (Daric Barton) to acquire a declining and more expensive Mark Mulder is exactly the type of move that exemplifies the style of TLR / Walt / Dunc. This one did not work out whereas the deals for Rolen and Edmonds did. Do we stick with this strategy or do we try and ride it out with the Dan Harens and A. Reyeses? Not every promising young pitcher pans out. But if the farm is deep enough, this strategy works over time assuming the kids are augmented with quality vets.

It'll be interesting to see which way the organization goes because TLR / Dunc will not bend. Could we see next year Jeff Luhnow as GM, Joe Girardi as manager and Dyar Miller as pitching coach?

by jjray on Jun 23, 2007 9:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The cardinals are a

small market team with a huge fan base. We actually have a top 5-10 payroll and DO have the capability to continue.

B. There is absolutely no way the Reyes is the player to be named later. It
ll be a player or two from the minors that we've never heard of.

C. Mulder, at the time of the trade, had one bad 1/2 a season. That is not a decline. He has also been injured consistently since we acquired him. It was a "win now" trade and it payed off didn't it? Playoffs every year with 2 WS appearances and a win.

BLaw.

by Dttl89 on Jun 23, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well,

just to get technical: Mulder didn't show up until after the first World Series loss.

by jfs on Jun 23, 2007 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

here's me : )

heres me looking stupid : (

I'll still take 2 1/2 out of 3

BLaw.

by Dttl89 on Jun 24, 2007 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if walt does leave, there are other candidates

for gm besides luhnow. specifically, john mozeliak --- he has been walt's assistant for several years now and, until the luhnow promotion, was viewed as walt's heir apparent. when the reds' gm position opened up two off-seasons ago, mozeliak was widely considered a candidate for it; he might even have interviewed for the slot, i don't recall for sure. the job eventually went to wayne krivsky, but mozeliak was in the conversation.

he has more experience in the game than luhnow does, and i'm sure he has established more contacts within the gm ranks than luhnow. if walt does leave, it's not a given that luhnow gets the job. mozeliak is at least as likely a successor imnho.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

mozeliak

>>or gm besides luhnow. specifically, john mozeliak --- he has been walt's assistant for several years now and, until the luhnow promotion, was viewed as walt's heir apparent<<

Very true but because Mozeliak is Walt's protege, I would expect him to leave when the purge comes (if it happens at all). I don't really know Mozeliak's style (just seen a few interviews) but if the idea is a clean break to implement a new top strategy for the organization, I'd be surprised if Mozeliak is tabbed to be the guy to implement the change. He is part of the old guard. I guess Luhnow as the next GM because the signals are that he heads up the young turks in the organization. And he was brought in by management, not Walt. The top commander always has to be wary of a young general with the ear of the king.

by jjray on Jun 23, 2007 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it depends

from what i can tell, the fissures aren't clean --- there are cross-cuts, with some of the "jocketty guys" being more willing than others to embrace luhnow. you may recall that mozeliak represented the cardinals at the amateur draft two weeks ago, which was a luhnow operation . . . . might be meaningful, or might mean nothing, but i did take note of it.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mozeliak

>>you may recall that mozeliak represented the cardinals at the amateur draft two weeks ago, which was a luhnow operation . . . . might be meaningful, or might mean nothing, but i did take note of it.<<

Was not aware of it. You follow the inner workings of the palace much closer than I. Is this a sign of cooperation between Mozeliak and Luhnow? Or was it a case of Mozeliak being sent to the draft as Walt's representative to keep an eye on the enemy camp (Luhnow)? Personally, I think it would be great if these two forge an alliance that survives any management purge. I like the sound of Walt's style being blended with what Luhnow brings to the table.

by jjray on Jun 23, 2007 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think

People are "quick to get rid of them", they just don't believe they'll return, that's all. Most people in the "WJ to leave the cardinals?" diary were really worried at the thought. I think it was hardcore (sorry if it wasn't) that made the good point, it would take longer to rebuild then it would already and Pujols might walk at the end of his contract.

I''m a Jenius!

by gibbons on Jun 23, 2007 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The front office

The discussion has been about why Jock would want to leave and/or upper management wanting to leave.

The speculation seams to centered on a rift between Luhnow and Jock. This rift is about two differant philosophies. Vets vs. Kids.

These philosphies are not mutually exclusive. In fact they are very compatible. I believe the Cards are already doing just that. Look at the rotation that started the season. A mix of vets and kids. I believe Loop was just a temp awaiting Mulder's return.

So what's the beef? Is this more about personality rather than philosophy? It is speculated that Walt is fustrated due to having been restrained by upper management. Really? He seamed to able to go after front line pitchers. Didn't get one, but are we sad we don't have Burnett or Schmidt under contract.

The only trade that I remember being rumored last winter was JaunE/Looper for Muroth/Thames. We all know that trades are harder to execute now. There are several reasons for this already discussed here.

I can only remember one trade rumor that was shot down becuase upper mamagement wouldn't take on the salary. That was the rumored deal with Arizona: Soup/Marquis for Vazquez/Quentin.

I could be wrong but having one deal denied really doesn't mean Jock is completely handcuffed does it? The differant philosophies need to work together. So what's problem?

by nybirdfan on Jun 23, 2007 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We have been spoiled here

with a team that usually contends. We won it all last year because we got hot at the right time. Does any body remember how badly they ended the regular season? We barely pulled out the division win in the last few days. They have focused on just getting to the top of the heap and then hoping to catch lightening through the playoffs. Maybe they miss guys like Suppan, Marquis, Weaver, the late Hancock, being around not because they were the greatest pitchers-maybe it's because they were just good guys-there seems to be no one to keep them loose; when was the last time you saw anyone smile on the field? Maybe Albert when he was talking to another teams' player on first base. All the injuries, the missteps in the free agent market, the undefined role of everyone not named Pujols or Rolen, just seemed to sap it all out of everyone. They look dull, uninspired, almost afraid to take the field. I know nothing about the in fighting, if Walt/LaDunc or at odds with Luhnow....but with success comes arrogance and they definitely seem to be in hiding because they don't like the questions. And I don't know what is wrong, but something is.

by jillsinmo on Jun 23, 2007 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

WJ

Being a GM is getting harder and harder in the MLB, and although Walt's moves haven't been terrific, he is trying to make the smart move instead of just overpaying for a mediocre pitcher. I would like to see some better trades and maybe a some smarter free agent signings, but you also have to consider that Walt doesn't have a lot to work with. Most of the Cardinals veterans are either unwanted by other teams, or they have a no trade clause that they are unwilling to waive. Also, the Cardinals have some good prospects, but they do not have a lot of them, definitely not enough to spare. Overall though, with the resources Jocketty has, he has done OK.

by 2x41z2tu on Jun 23, 2007 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Triumvirate

I've been a huge fan of the LaRussa-Duncan alliance since their days in Oakland. I was nine years old when they won their title over San Fran, and the A's were my favorite team during those years, mostly due to Stewart, Welch, and esp. Eckersley. When LaRussa came here to St. Louis, I was in absolute paroxysms of joy for weeks on end. The era of Cardinal baseball we have seen since their arrival, particularly since 2000, has been the best of my lifetime, and one of the great runs this, or any other franchise, has ever put together.

All of that being said, I find myself in the position of feeling that it may be time for a change in leadership. The particular strengths and weaknesses of this leadership corps is well established. We've seen the good that they can accomplish. However, the current direction that the organisation seems to be taking is one that does not favor Tony or Duncan. Neither one have much, (read: any) track record of developing young players. Ownership seems to be set on the idea of becoming a player development based organisation, and I don't think LaRussa and Duncan are the best choices to lead that sort of a team. I love both of them for the great baseball we've had under their stewardship, but what they do well is not going to be the best thing for the team in the future. '

As for Jocketty, I think that it would be a big blow to the Cardinals to lose Walt. He is one of the best GMs in the business, bar none. It has been said that what he excels at is trading away young talent, but, to me, that has been what the organisation has wanted from him. This team has been in win now mode for the past ten years, and Jocketty has done a wonderful job of acquiring the players necessary to execute that philosophy. WJ hasn't been in the business of building a young team because that isn't what the owners wanted up until now. Personally, I think Jocketty could be quite effective building a team in a more grass roots style as well. He just hasn't had the impetus to do so. I like Luhnow's ideas, but I think it's important to have an experienced GM at the helm, supplementing the players the system produces, if you really want to see this team put together a team that can make a long term run.

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 23, 2007 11:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Things are never

as good as they seem nor as bad as they seem...

Walt may very well be "grumpy" because this team hasn't been very good... losing Carpenter in the first game of the season was a blow to the heart of the ballclub. I 'spect the Birds would be well over .500 had Carp been healthy from the get-go.

Whether Tony returns next season will be up to Tony, period! He may decide he's had enough, or he may decide the "fire" still burns.

For the Cardinals to continue to contend every year, the farm system must produce players that can contribute in The Show. While that process has begun (see Pujols, Albert; Duncan, Chris; Johnson, Tyler; and Kenney, Jeff) the Cardinals will need young (read: cheap) players both in the field and on the mound. Springfield's All-Star showing in AA this year is a good omen.

Remember, this is baseball: Nothing has to happen immediately! Let's allow the rest of the season to play out... by it's very nature, there's almost always some disagreement within any front-office on the subject of player development. That's normally healthy, since predicting just which prospects will "make it" is an uncertain enterprise at best!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 24, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

TLR/DD/WJ

This might happen, and we will survive. So long as the folks who run this thing understand that the fan support they enjoy today could disappear in an instant. IF they go, it is because the ownership decided on a change.

My frustration is in watching a talented young pitcher being ruined in the name of a doctrine that doesn't work for him. If I were Reyes, I would dump the "pitch to contact" stuff and do it my way, even if that meant being traded to another team. If I were going to fail, I would want to fail with my stuff.......The handlimg of this kid and the general management of the minor league talent may be reason enough in the eyes of some to merit the change. I am not quite in that camp yet, but am also worried about the possibility that Tony and Dave have lost the staff and a good portion of the position players....

by JKW1974 on Jun 24, 2007 11:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I keep hearing

That La Duncan doesn't work well with younger players. Really? Lil' Duncan, Albert, Molina, Wainman, and The bull pen.

Then Reyes is laid out as and example that Duncan can't work with younger pitchers. Really? Doesn't Reyes have something to do with that? Haren is also put into this group. Haren was traded for a lefty the team didn't have. A guy that would and maybe still can provide a one two punch.

Mulder and Carp could next year be Schill and Johnson. A play off combo that will be tough to beat.

I like this management combo and was excited about them from the start. Their run has been wonderful, not the Yanks but pretty damn good.

Now from Cot's Walter has a club option for '08 and he is 56. Still pretty young.

Tony's contract runs out this year, and he is 61.
Duncan is 62 and if a new mananager is hired he will mostly likely hire his own assistants. So, if Duncan has one more year he may be gone anyway.

I hope these guys stay at least one more year. I know I wouldn't want to go out like this, but that's not up to me.

by nybirdfan on Jun 24, 2007 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, Reyes is different in the fact that

he CAN'T throw the pitch they want and the best course would and should be to teach him a different pitch then. They have integrated the young ones in baby steps--Duncan is still basically used as a platoon player, Albert is one of those players that come along once a decade if your lucky, Molina is here because he is a defensive beast. It might have been better to leave him in the minors longer to be a better hitter. He's coming around; I have no complaints. Wainwright was pretty much formed by the time we got him and he's already their kind of pitcher, and they seem willing to go with flow with him. They have been smart about handling middle relief with their youngish pitchers--I think sometimes it might be better to go with them for more than an inning or a batter or two, especially when the starter has tanked. Overall if you look at the roster, they would rather work with a broken veteran than see what they can get out of young starting pitcher.......just look at the kind of players they have signed over the last several years. With the cost of starting pitching way out of control they are going to have to develop them on their own. It's going to be a challenge for every organization---because you usually get what you pay for when you buy a position player and you often don't when you buy a pitcher.

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wells vs ?

I know the Wells signing was questioned by a lot of people, but what choice did they have. Hawksworth isn't ready and Navi may never be. As far as other young players there really isn't anybody. Maybe in a year or two there will be some exciting young players.

Jrod has a lot of fans and maybe deserves a shot, but that's really it. Ankiel isn't ready. They are both in their late 20's

Now I guess it could be argued that the minors were depleted by trades, and those trades were made because La Duncan doesn't like younger players. But what do I know.

by nybirdfan on Jun 24, 2007 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs