Reyes: Something's Going to Pop

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 17, 2007 1:29 AM EDT Comment 25 comments

Yes, we are all excited to see the return of young Anthony. Fresh off his dominating showing in AAA. Al Hrabosky even claimed he "heard" that Reyes is throwing 93-95 (I'll believe it when I see it... and, btw, I don't believe it...Al is generally a bs homer/cheerleader).

But anyway, I remember listening to the "inside pitch" (KFNS) on a Sun. morning w/ Hummel and the other dude right before Reyes was sent down, and they had this fella, Mike Marshall, on (http://www.drmikemarshall.com/), who apparently has become an expert on pitching mechanics and injuries (he claims he has a work program that guarantees no injury...hmmmmm).

Mike said that Reyes's delivery was the worst he's ever seen in his entire life (he's been doing this for a long time). He predicted "something's going to pop, real soon". Hummel seemed skeptical and dismissive, which would have placated me if not for hearing Scott Terry make similar comments on Fox Sports Midwest a couple nights earlier; claiming Reyes's mechanics were very violent and put a lot of stress on the elbow. Said he didn't feel good at all looking at the way he was pitching.

So - how long does young Anthony have before he's on the shelf? Is this guy really our savior?

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No one has ever said that Reyes is the savior

merely that he is better than Kip Wells/Jason Marquis in 2006. And he has always been an injury risk. His route to the majors took as long as it did exactly because he was hurt a lot in the low minors.

But would you really rather have Wellemeyer and Wells in the rotation over Reyes?

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2007 1:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

No

and that's why he's our savior.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 17, 2007 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I should rephrase that: he's A savior. We're going to need more than one (I'm looking at you, Carp) to turn this one around.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 17, 2007 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, No, No, not them!

I hate those people....esp. Wells. And esp. Wells!!!!!

I'm very happy Reyes is back. I prefer Reyes. I even kinda love him (don't tell anyone).

I'm just worried his time is short before the pop. And then what do we do? Makes those 21 (or so) innings he threw in Memphis seem like a waste of time....we could've surely used those pre-pop innings up here.

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 17, 2007 1:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well...

He did slip that far in the draft because of the injuries in his past...

He does have funky mechanics, but I've seen a lot worse.

by whopperman on Jun 17, 2007 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Marshall

talking shit about a Tom House product? Well, knock me over with a feather.

by plh903 on Jun 17, 2007 2:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't follow

who is Tom House?

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 17, 2007 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

House is

a former MLB pitching coach who had his hurlers (among other things) throwing footballs in an effort to teach them "correct" deliveries. He was considered to be a bit of an "oddball" as a pitching coach.

Mike Marshall is a former "rubber-armed" MLB reliefer (a screwball specialist, of all things!) with a degree in kinesiology (the study of body motions) who loudly claims that everything pitchers are generally taught is wrong. He's a bit of a blowhard; so far, nobody in Organized Ball has offered him the chance to test his theories with their pitchers!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 17, 2007 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

More to the point,

House is or was the pitching coach at USC, and handled both Reyes and Prior, who was once hailed has having "perfect mechanics" ... and has been broken down more often than an old Volkswagon bus.

by taiko on Jun 17, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point on Marshall

but he's not a nobody either. He did pitch, quite successfully, for several seasons. Still, guaranteeing a pitcher will never get injured? Get real!

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reyes has had

injuries, but if you'll look at his record, he has avoided the disabled list....which tells me you might want to give him extra time between starts. His arm injury in college kept him out his sophomore year but he did return and pitch for his junior and senior year. I look at all pitchers as an injury risk. Carp has had injuries, serious ones, requiring missing a lot of time, and his mechanics appear flawless, so how are you going to know who is goinig down....

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2007 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's Mike Marshall's point

...oddball or not, he claims the whole practice of just assuming pitchers are injury-risks (like it's inevitable), is insane. And that if you understand how the structure of the arm works (what causes stress and what doesn't) then you can avoid injury. I'm not saying he's right, but you look at pitchers these days and Will Carrol's insights, etc., it does seem as if there's something systematic about the normal method of pitching that's injurious by nature. The only question is - does it have to be?

Oh, and I agree Reyes benefits from time off between starts.

by cardsfaninmass on Jun 17, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes and no

If Marshall can actually produce a pitcher with his goofy looking mechanics that can heave it up there at 95, then yeah there's something to it. But preventing injuries by making it so they can only throw 85 is pretty much worthless. The only known objective evidence of his pitcher's velo is his "most talented pitcher in the world" Jeff Sparks getting clocked at 83...which of course was a conspiracy. He says he's taken guys to new velocity heights, but who knows when Sparks says he can actually throw in the high-80's. I think there probably is something to his training regimen, but the whole mechanical issues are a bit different for me. There probably is something to the pronating of the wrist, but I can't imagine scrapping arm action/shoulder load and not using your hips is going to help anything in terms of stuff.

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 17, 2007 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Couple of things

STILL don't understand the complaints about Dan and Al being "homers." They're the... Cardinals... announcers.
Throwing a football actually has many benefits to pitchers. To properly throw a football spiral, you've gotta get the kinetic chain of your body in perfect timing. Also, to throw a spiral you pronate the wrist (turn the palm outward), and the arm naturally does this when throwing a baseball. Not to mention, the heavier weight of the football prevents the pitcher from "overthrowing" too soon. Helps get the muscles warmer and looser.
It should be noted that even though Marshall was a rubber-armed reliever during his career, he did NOT pitch using these so-called "mechanics" (and I use that term loosely) that he's developed. Now, the issue with Reyes' mechanics is that he makes what is called the "inverted W" with his arms. Specifically, his pitching side elbow is higher than his shoulder, and Marshall and his pundits believe that puts undue stress on the muscles of the shoulder/rotator cuff. Maybe SilentBob can elaborate on the exact muscles. It's nowhere near for sure, but very inexact examinations of various pitchers' mechanics show that some pitchers who have had long, mostly healthy careers keep their throwing elbow below the level of their shoulders. So, basically, yeah, Reyes' mechanics MAY cause him to be at a higher injury risk, if that's the way he naturally throws, changing that would be even worse.

by Jhusk on Jun 17, 2007 8:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention cost him velo

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 17, 2007 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, not necessarily

One of the problems some people have with the "inverted W" arm action is that it is too efficient, if that makes any sense. Too much energy and strain is placed on the elbow. So I really don't think it costs him any velocity, and if his arm can take it then I saw don't screw with it.

by Jhusk on Jun 17, 2007 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

I'm saying if he abandons it, he would cost himself velocity. He probably is overloading his shoulder, but that's what he has to do. It's guys like Zumaya and Liriano who probably shouldn't be going above their shoulder line because they are still going to be ridiculous regardless...maybe not 103 but much less chance for injury.

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 17, 2007 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gotcha

But, just to be clear, scapular loading isn't all bad. You can take the elbows behind the "acrimonial line" (I THINK that's the correct term) of the back, but some believe the danger increases when you do that with the elbow above the shoulder.

by Jhusk on Jun 18, 2007 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know

It's Acromial line, and no scap loads aren't bad...they're good. They're very good in terms of adding stuff while actually reducing injury risk if done right. But if you are even kinda flexible, it's really easy to go overboard, something Reyes does do to a certain extent, however he might not be a major league pitcher if he didn't.

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 18, 2007 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And since your talking about pitching injuries....

One of my sons plays in a recreational baseball leagues for 18 and under. I was sitting in a shaded area near a team of what appeared to be 14-15 year old boys having a meeting with their coach. He was giving the standard issue blah, blah, blah coach talk-then he mentioned they were adding 2 pitchers to help with their big tournament schedule. Right after that, he mentioned that one of their injured pitchers had an MRI and there was no structural damage in his shoulder. Then he said he got a CORTISONE SHOT and would be able to pitch by Thursday. I was kind of dumbstruck....My other son is pitcher, who luckily has never had a shoulder injury....but if he had when he was 14-15 year old there is no way I would have allowed that. Wow! That kids going to be ruined before he even gets a chance to pitch on his varsity high school team. Giving a cortisone shot to a kid so he can pitch just seems wrong.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2007 8:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I coached Little League this year

And was shocked at some of the coaching practices. We had a 10 year old kid throwing overhand curves! 10 years old! I went to Ric Lessman's school and have used his warming up and arm excercising techniques forever. Most people get out and throw very hard to start and nerver really warm up.

A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Jun 18, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm glad to hear that you are

taking care of the young players.....One of my son's has always played in the more competitive leagues, and we got him pitching instruction. His instructor was adamant about NOT learning to throw the curve until he had his driver's permit. The only pitches he learned to throw before that was a fastball and a change up. And he was also taught to move it around up/down the ladder and right side/left side--learning to throw a near perfect curve (it is still his best pitch) was his 16th birthday present. He still pitches Div. II and he has never had an arm injury or a shoulder injury. You always have to think about tomorrow when your working with kids.

by jillsinmo on Jun 19, 2007 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reyes Mechanics

I believe another "complaint" that Marshall has with Reyes' delivery is that he actually plants his left foot before he releases the ball, creating additional stress on the elbow. It sounded crazy but if you watch his delivery, he definitely does. I would think you would want to release just before planting your foot, but wtf do I know.

by farley503 on Jun 18, 2007 8:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's physically impossible

Marhsall is probably saying that he takes a "stride" instead of a step like he teaches...something I believe he has to protect the groin...something that I think isn't important relatively if it costs even 1 mph. Marshall would say Clemens' mechanics would kill him so take him with a grain of salt or 10,000.

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 18, 2007 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs