hurly buehrle
according to USA today, 2 of the top 25 sports stories of the last quarter-century involve the cardinals. 2 of the top 6, actually: the paper ranks the 1998 mcgwire-sosa home-run chase at #6 and the red sox's long-awaited world championship at #1. interesting that baseball stories dominate this list, given that football long ago surpassed baseball as the nation's chief sporting preoccupation . . . .
lotta loose talk lately about mark buehrle's imminent departure from the white sox via trade. the chicago papers are full of such talk, and the prospect was also discussed in this diary at VEB and over at my SB Nation brother site, South Side Sox. without question, there's a realistic chance he'll be moved. the white sox have the same record as the cardinals, 27-33, but because they play in a much tougher division they have little hope of making a race of it: they are 9 games back and in 4th place, on the verge of falling hopelessly out of contention. these franchises are on somewhat similar paths: both won 100 games two years ago (the sox actually won 99, but who's counting) with rosters that were just at their peak, but have since sunk into decline as their core players aged. i think the cards are better positioned to rebuild --- there is no pujols on the white sox roster --- but the similarity is still there.
buehrle, a free-agent at the end of the year, is a logical trade chip if the white sox decide to give up on the season --- and it has long been thought that st louis is a logical destination for buehrle, a local kid and unabashed lifelong cardinals fan. without question, the cards will inquire when he hits the free agent market --- but will they be bidders if/when he hits the trade market?
let me start with this thought: if buehrle does get traded at mid-season, it will be a rare event. pitchers with his resume almost never change teams during the season. this is a guy who has thrown 200+ innings six years in a row, leading the league in that category two times. he has won no fewer than 12 games in each of those 6 seasons, with a single-season high of 19. his resume is peppered with top-10 finishes on the american league leaderboard for wins, era, complete games, shutouts, and whip; he has been named to three all-star teams and finished in the top 5 in the cy young voting two years ago. the last guy with an even remotely similar description who got traded during a season is freddy garcia, whom seattle dealt to the chisox in mid-2004. garcia was 29 years old that year (buehrle is currently 28) and, like buehrle, had a top-5 cy young finish on his resume and a string of seasons with 200 innings pitched and double-digit win totals. but he had only posted sub-4.00 eras twice in five years (despite pitching in a pitcher's park) and had struggled with arm trouble; he was good but still a cut below buehrle. another comparable case is bartolo colon, traded halfway through the 2002 season at age 29 from the indians to the expos. and we might also take a look at curt schilling, traded in july 2000 (at age 33) from the phillies to the diamondbacks. both garcia and colon were in the walk year of their contract; schilling still had a full year left to run on his deal.
that's it --- 3 guys during this decade; 3 marquee pitchers in their prime. all the other pitchers traded in-season since 2000 have been good/great pitchers at the end of their careers (e.g. jamie moyer and greg maddux last season, chuck finley in 2002) or journeyman in the midst of good seasons (e.g., jeff suppan and sidney ponson in 2003), or just plain journeymen (jeff weaver last season; woody williams in 2001) or guys with potential. so let's just start with the three comparable cases and see what the acquiring teams had to give up in exchange:
- freddy garcia and ben davis to the white sox; jeremy reed, miguel olivo, and mike morse to the mariners, july 27, 2004:
jeremy reed was the white sox answer to colby rasmus --- a high draft pick (2d round) who had moved swiftly through the chain and was projected to be the centerfielder of the future. baseball america had him as the #25 prospect in the minors that year (rasmus was at #29 when this season began). at the time of the trade he was almost major-league ready, having spent half a season at triple A; after the trade he got a september callup and hit .397 for seattle in 51 at-bats. rasmus is a better prospect than reed was (he's younger and has more power), but then buehrle is a better pitcher than garcia was.miguel olivo in 2004 was a 25-year-old catcher with good power potential; hasn't had a great career, but catchers capable of slugging .440 aren't a dime a dozen. there is no comparable player in the st louis system; bryan anderson will probably be a much better hitter by age 25, while molina has far less power potential at roughly the same age. this guy lies somewhere in between those two.
the 3d player in the package, mike morse, was a 22-year-old shortstop who was slugging .536 at double A. one year after the trade he became the mariners' everyday shortstop and hit .278 / .349 / .370, but in 2006 he tore up his knee. still only 25, he's currently at triple A and hitting .313 / .383 / .485. the cardinals don't really have a comp for him; picture tyler greene with good stats, and you've got a rough idea.
- bartolo colon and tim drew to the expos; grady sizemore, cliff lee, brandon phillips, and lee stevens to the indians, june 27, 2002:
grady sizemore you've heard of. at the time of the trade, he was a 20-year-old guy in class A. a 3d-rounder in the 2000 draft, he hadn't shown much yet and hadn't appeared on any top-prospect lists, but after joining the cleveland system he caught fire and by 2004 was in the big leagues to stay. a rough comp for the cardinals might be john jay, who is one level higher than sizemore was but also is 2 years older.you're also heard of brandon phillips, who was the real prize of the package, a 21-year-old shortstop who slugged .506 at double A during the first half that year and had just earned his promotion to triple A about a week before the trade. he got in 31 big-league at-bats that september and opened the 2003 season as the 7th-best prospect in baseball, per BA. he washed out in that trial and scuffled for several years before resurrecting his career with cincinnati last season. rasmus is a fair comp --- young, premium position, great stats.
and you've heard of cliff lee, who at the time of the trade was 24 years old and had a 7-2 record at double A with a 3.23 era --- slightly less valuable than blake hawksworth (who is currently 24 and at triple A) but more valuable than adam ottavino (who is 22 and in A ball).
lee stevens was a throw-in --- roughly equivalent to preston wilson.
- curt schilling to the dbacks; omar daal, nelson figueroa, travis lee, and vicente padilla to the phillies, july 26, 2000:
funny to look back on this one. the centerpiece of the deal was travis lee, a 25-year-old first baseman in his 3d major-league season. he'd been the second overall selection in the 1996 draft and made it to the big league in less than two years, hitting 22 hr as a rookie in 1998. he was thought to have superstar potential but never lived up to it. chris duncan might serve here as a comp; he's probably a bit more valuable than lee was at that time, because he has compiled somewhat better big-league numbers to date, but lee still carried an aura and expectation of greatness.vicente padilla was a 22-year-old rookie getting his feet wet as a reliever; he had a 2.31 era at the time of the trade in 27 innings. his value was roughly equivalent to adam wainwright's value at this time last year; two years after the trade he entered the philadelphia rotation and posted back-to-back 14-win seasons for them.
omar daal was a quasi-established starting pitcher, one year removed from a 215-inning, 16-9 season. he stunk in 2000 (2-10 at the time of the trade with a 7.22 era), but the following year he would make 32 starts for the phillies with a 13-7 record. you could call kip wells a comp, i suppose; a better comp might be jeff weaver circa july 2006.
the last player, nelson figueroa, was like a healthy version of chris narveson --- a quadruple A pitcher in his mid-20s. he actually was pitching extremely well at the time of the trade, with a 9-4 record and 2.81 era in the hitter-friendly pcl; the phillies kept him at triple A after the acquisition, but the following year they got 13 starts out of the guy. he bounced around and never amounted to much.
it'd change the cardinals' prospects a great deal if mark buehrle joined the club; with him and a healthy carp in the 2d half, they might very well lay waste to the weak nl central, and no team would relish the thought of facing st louis in the postseason. but history suggests that such an acquisition would be very costly --- too costly, in all likelihood, to make this a realistic option.
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lboros
by eglasier on Jun 12, 2007 9:58 AM EDT 0 recs
man, i've been sloppy lately
by lboros on
Jun 12, 2007 10:07 AM EDT
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Wow, that puts things in perspective
Unless Reyes and possibly Mather are used as a centerpiece for a trade, Walt won't be able to pull that rabbit out of any hat.
I have seen Mather play three or four times in Springfield and love his offense, but on defense he was scarier than Duncan last year in the OF. We were able to use another AA masher last year in Evans, but Weaver was a throw-away.
Not even sure this would be enough to get it done -- Reyes, Mather and Narveson? Would the ChiSox ask for the moon and Rasmus?
Yikes...
by gforce on Jun 12, 2007 10:07 AM EDT 0 recs
given their stated needs
by lboros on
Jun 12, 2007 10:11 AM EDT
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No kidding
by gforce on
Jun 12, 2007 10:19 AM EDT
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different
burnett never had any kind of st louis association, other than the fact he lived several hours away
as far as dealing for buerhle now, noway do u give up your best prospects, to me rasmus is untouchable, if they would take anthony, jay, even perez, maybe, but i cant see co;by being available
by bigcardsfan5 on
Jun 12, 2007 12:46 PM EDT
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sorry gforce9
i see what you are saying that burnett went where the money was better, and you are worried buerhle may do the same, and the money for buerhle is undoubtedly going to be more than what burnett got
by bigcardsfan5 on
Jun 12, 2007 12:51 PM EDT
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The Appeal of Reyes
Throw in an outfield prospect to two (not Rasmus) and maybe we have a deal?
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 12, 2007 1:17 PM EDT
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Their kinda guy
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Buehrle/Buehrle_bio.html
by vince eating tarp on
Jun 12, 2007 4:02 PM EDT
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Agreed
by awpierce on
Jun 12, 2007 4:34 PM EDT
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You know,
by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 10:17 AM EDT 0 recs
he reportedly has already rejected a deal
by azruavatar on
Jun 12, 2007 10:26 AM EDT
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I would be surprised
Buehrle is neither.
Also, I'm not sure anyone will get Zito money. Since Zito ain't earning it.
by sdrone on
Jun 12, 2007 10:33 AM EDT
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i think the hope is that buehrle gives a discount
i bet it won't hinge on the dollars, but rather the number of guaranteed years. the cards probably won't go beyond 4 guaranteed years; they'll structure any remaining years as vesting options. if that happens, and any other team offers buehrle 5 guaranteed years (and they probably will), it'll be difficult for him to justify accepting the cardinals' offer.
by lboros on
Jun 12, 2007 11:04 AM EDT
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risk and pitching contracts
It makes me wonder if one effective way to mitigate the risk of signing a longer contract would be to front-load the contract, rather than backloading it, as is the comon practice today. For example, we guarantee something on the order of $15m, $13m, $13m, $10m, $9m for a total value of $50 mil over the next five years. If he flames out or gets injured and we want to trade him after year 3, his remaining salary looks like a lower risk acquisition for other clubs.
by taiko on
Jun 12, 2007 11:59 AM EDT
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You'd rather just eat the salary
by joker24 on
Jun 12, 2007 12:08 PM EDT
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Why do you say that?
by taiko on
Jun 12, 2007 12:11 PM EDT
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Agreed
The idea is that bad contracts are generally bad because they last too long, not because they pay too much money. Witness deals like Dreifort, Hampton, Neagle, even Bagwell's in Houston. They end up costing the teams a lot of money b/c they last 2-3 years longer than they should have. So the Dodgers essentially buy themselves out of the 5 year contracts with a couple extra million $ each year of 3. It's a pretty good plan. I doubt Buehrle, a 28 year old pitcher who will get 5 year offers, will go for it but, if the Cards are going to get involved (still not sure they should) this is how they should do it.
by chuckb on
Jun 12, 2007 12:21 PM EDT
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Trade vs. FA signing
by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 10:18 AM EDT 0 recs
I'm with you
by azruavatar on
Jun 12, 2007 10:27 AM EDT
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Me, too
by chuckb on
Jun 12, 2007 12:22 PM EDT
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The reason to go for him now
by Stanfan6 on
Jun 12, 2007 1:57 PM EDT
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I don't know
I see no reason why any trade between the Cards and White Soxs would not begin with one name:
Anthony Reyes
They pivotal question is what players you add around reyes to get a deal done.
by JMedwick on Jun 12, 2007 10:27 AM EDT 0 recs
I agree
by Carps on
Jun 12, 2007 10:37 AM EDT
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Second.
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 12, 2007 1:19 PM EDT
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One more thing
by JMedwick on Jun 12, 2007 10:28 AM EDT 0 recs
Well, if Buerhle has already turned down
by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 10:34 AM EDT 0 recs
Home town discount
Remember: Rolen declined a deal with the Phils before signing with us for identical money. These things happen.
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 12, 2007 1:21 PM EDT
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Yeah, but the Phillies
by jillsinmo on
Jun 12, 2007 5:58 PM EDT
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um, why not?
that said, even $12m/year would be a heckuva hometown discount. but if, hypothetically, buehrle wanted 3/36, i don't see how jock passes that up.
in any event, to say 3/30 is absolutely out of the question, i just think that's flat wrong.
by nycbirdo on
Jun 12, 2007 7:33 PM EDT
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Buerhle, etc.
I think there's a very good chance that MB signs with the Cards in the offseason, regardless of which franchise he files for free agency from. Of course, the Cardinals could always screw up the whole deal thinking Buerhle will take more of a discount than he really will. But, that's for December baseball talk.
I think, in the situation the Cardinals find themselves in, the best possible move is to stand pat this season. They should sell off some of the mid range veteran talent they have, (Juan, Flores, Franklin, maybe some of those types) and one or two of their borderline young guys, (Thompson, maybe, that sort) to help set up the club for a run next year.
This team will need an addition the magnitude of Buerhle to really become a competitor this season, and I think the long term cost to the team would be too great. I'm perfectly willing to see the Birds take their lumps this year to preserve the positive momentum going forward. (in terms of player development, etc.) Let some other team that's closer to winning big rent Buerhle for a month or two, then sign him over the offseason. Carp, Muldoo, Buerhle, Wainwright, and maybe Hawksworth or whoever will be plenty scary for teams to face in October 2008. Don't sell off the farm now, you're so close to actually harvesting something.
Of all the trades above, I think the Bartolo Colon one is an unusual case, and maybe a little misleading. At the time, the Indians were in massive salary dump mode, and the Expos were facing contraction. It was the Montreal franchise's stated position, (I don't recall if Minaya was still the GM at the time) that they were trying to get some of their talent moved, just in case the whole thing was contracted. They were just trying to get some of the guys they thought deserved a shot into organisations they were sure would be there in two years. (Cliff Lee, esp.) They took on Colon's salary, not to contend, but simply because they thought it would all be off the books soon at the time.
I have a 3rd cousin who actually worked in the Expos' front office at the time, (not anyone important, just an assistant) and I remember him telling me how strange it was to watch an organisation, with Minaya at first then whoever they got to replace him, just attempting to get ball players off the rosters, as if you were trying to get people into lifeboats to escape a sinking ship. It was really a bizarre time. He ended up losing his job when they moved, moved to Rancho Cucamonga, and works with the Angels' affiliate there.
by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:36 AM EDT 0 recs
I just Realized
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 10:43 AM EDT
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i'm not disputing what you say about contraction
but there was more to the trade than air-lifting guys off a sinking ship. the expos were legitimate contenders in 2002. at the time of the trade they were in 2d place, 7 games behind the braves, and 2d in the wild-card, 6 games behind the dbacks. they had an extremely talented roster --- vlad guerrero, jose vidro, orlando cabrera, a pre-injury brad wilkerson, brian schnieder. the pitching staff already featured javy vazquez; with the addition of colon, they had a pretty potent 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation. they got as close as 4 games out in the wild-card chase before collapsing down the stretch.
by lboros on
Jun 12, 2007 10:52 AM EDT
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You're Right
Like I said, it wasn't supposed to be directed at you, Larry. All of the trades involving the Expos at the end, though, took on an added dimension that isn't usually there in MLB deals.
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 10:56 AM EDT
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Yeah, it's stomach-turning to look at
The talent loss is staggering:
- Grady Sizemore
- Cliff Lee
- Brandon Phillips
- Javier Vazquez
- Bartolo Colon
- Orlando Hernandez
- Carl Pavano (when he was promising)
- Michael Barrett
- Chris Young (the pitcher for San Diego)
And this was all done with the express consent of the 31 co-owners of the franchise, who all had their hands out.
by taiko on
Jun 12, 2007 10:52 AM EDT
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Yeah, no question.
by taiko on
Jun 12, 2007 11:46 AM EDT
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That franchise was famous for bleeding talent
by Valatan on
Jun 12, 2007 11:02 AM EDT
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and
by sdesserman on
Jun 12, 2007 11:57 AM EDT
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How about...
by cardzfanbub on Jun 12, 2007 10:40 AM EDT 0 recs
Oh, oh......
by jillsinmo on
Jun 12, 2007 10:44 AM EDT
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Shows What You Know
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 10:48 AM EDT
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I considered that...
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 12, 2007 10:51 AM EDT
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I was just joking
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 10:53 AM EDT
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Mark Buehrle vs Javier Vazquez
Career WHIP: MB 1.252 ... JV 1.269
Career K/BB: MB 2.55 ... JV 3.24 (!)
Career K/9: MB 5.25 ... JV 7.8
Vazquez would be 31, older than Buehrle but not decrepit.
The big knock on Vazquez is that his ERA and W/L is always worse than these numbers would suggest. (Witness last night, giving up three solo home runs on his only three hits allowed to the Phillies through six innings.) But given his age and the liveness of his stuff, he could become a dominant #2 under Duncan.
by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 10:41 AM EDT 0 recs
I'm not a big fan
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 10:46 AM EDT
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I know what you're saying
by taiko on
Jun 12, 2007 10:55 AM EDT
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I agree.
His upside, if you could figure him out, would be huge, though.
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 11:00 AM EDT
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Vasquez
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006668470
I don't see the White Sox trading him, but I suppose it's not out of the question.
by brianp88 on
Jun 12, 2007 11:30 AM EDT
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I hadn't seen that
A deal for Vazquez is still not inconceivable, but looks far less likely now. It would hinge on the Sox brass deciding that they'd rather take a big chunk of that money back and reinvest it in keeping Buehrle in the rotation instead, and it doesn't sound like they're interested in doing that.
by taiko on
Jun 12, 2007 11:50 AM EDT
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It seems to me
I expect the Cards to make a run at him. I'm not sure that the Cards are willing to offer what it might take to acquire his services, but I'm sure Walt is going to try. It might not be for this year, but certainly in free agency.
I expect Buehrle will be traded at the deadline.
by brianp88 on
Jun 12, 2007 12:22 PM EDT
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Great post
I'm also not so sure the hometown kid will return via free agency. I remember the same talk when Buehrle was a free agent after the '03 season - Cardinals fan, wants to play close to home, etc. I even talked to a friend-of-a-friend who relayed that Buehrle would be a Cardinal.
Instead, he resigned with the White Sox for 3 years and $18 mil (plus option year). Pitcher salaries have obviously exploded since then, but even at the time the contract was a reasonable value. Consider that Buehrle's '03 deal was very comparable to what the Cardinals paid Woody Williams over the same period.
Given that fact, I have to ASSUME the Cardinals made Buehrle an offer within striking distance of the White Sox and, despite being a Cardinals fan and all that, he showed no interest in the old hometown discount. If anyone has actual data on what the Cards may have offered in '03, please share.
I expect Buehrle's love of the Cardinals to factor into his next contract decision exactly as much. That would mean the only way to lure him home is with $$$, and it will take a lot more than 18 million this time.
by bgodar on Jun 12, 2007 10:58 AM EDT 0 recs
You are
by jillsinmo on
Jun 12, 2007 11:05 AM EDT
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Buerhle's Comments
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 11:15 AM EDT
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I think you are right
by cardsgirl95 on
Jun 12, 2007 11:32 AM EDT
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A quote from Buehrle
"I hope the fans realize when you sign for three years -- and it could be four years -- we can stop that talk about the Cardinals."
Here's hoping, but doubting, the quote will be different this off season.
by bgodar on
Jun 12, 2007 11:15 AM EDT
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He wasn't ever a free agent
by joker24 on
Jun 12, 2007 12:15 PM EDT
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My mistake
by bgodar on
Jun 12, 2007 1:02 PM EDT
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If they can sign him to an extension
Getting Buehrle isn't that horrible of a move for 2008 (once again, if he can be signed to an extension)--we would start out 2008 with a rotation of Carp, Buehrle, Mulder, Wainwright, and a fifth guy who should be Reyes. The offense will still largely be in order.
But yeah, losing a package of players, and then losing Buehrle would be pretty crushing.
by Valatan on Jun 12, 2007 10:59 AM EDT 0 recs
I have to disagree
I think Colby could be the sort of CF you can really build around. I'm not sure I feel the same way about Jay. He seems a little better suited to be a complementary player, as opposed to a centerpiece.
Also, I don't think that giving up a prospect of Rasmus's magnitude is worth the slim chance that the Cardinals could really contend this season. I know the division is weak, but if you have a good chance to get the player without giving up anything, (short of a draft pick) I think that would be much better than letting a big part of the team's future go.
by the red baron on
Jun 12, 2007 11:07 AM EDT
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I'm not saying that Jay is as good as Rasmus
Perhaps it's just that I value prospects less than a lot of other people around here but if he agrees to an extension before the fact, I'd probably trade Rasmus, a bullpen arm like Kinney or Johnson, and a Skip Schumaker for Buehrle.
by Valatan on
Jun 12, 2007 11:12 AM EDT
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