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hurly buehrle

according to USA today, 2 of the top 25 sports stories of the last quarter-century involve the cardinals. 2 of the top 6, actually: the paper ranks the 1998 mcgwire-sosa home-run chase at #6 and the red sox's long-awaited world championship at #1. interesting that baseball stories dominate this list, given that football long ago surpassed baseball as the nation's chief sporting preoccupation . . . .

lotta loose talk lately about mark buehrle's imminent departure from the white sox via trade. the chicago papers are full of such talk, and the prospect was also discussed in this diary at VEB and over at my SB Nation brother site, South Side Sox. without question, there's a realistic chance he'll be moved. the white sox have the same record as the cardinals, 27-33, but because they play in a much tougher division they have little hope of making a race of it: they are 9 games back and in 4th place, on the verge of falling hopelessly out of contention. these franchises are on somewhat similar paths: both won 100 games two years ago (the sox actually won 99, but who's counting) with rosters that were just at their peak, but have since sunk into decline as their core players aged. i think the cards are better positioned to rebuild --- there is no pujols on the white sox roster --- but the similarity is still there.

buehrle, a free-agent at the end of the year, is a logical trade chip if the white sox decide to give up on the season --- and it has long been thought that st louis is a logical destination for buehrle, a local kid and unabashed lifelong cardinals fan. without question, the cards will inquire when he hits the free agent market --- but will they be bidders if/when he hits the trade market?

let me start with this thought: if buehrle does get traded at mid-season, it will be a rare event. pitchers with his resume almost never change teams during the season. this is a guy who has thrown 200+ innings six years in a row, leading the league in that category two times. he has won no fewer than 12 games in each of those 6 seasons, with a single-season high of 19. his resume is peppered with top-10 finishes on the american league leaderboard for wins, era, complete games, shutouts, and whip; he has been named to three all-star teams and finished in the top 5 in the cy young voting two years ago. the last guy with an even remotely similar description who got traded during a season is freddy garcia, whom seattle dealt to the chisox in mid-2004. garcia was 29 years old that year (buehrle is currently 28) and, like buehrle, had a top-5 cy young finish on his resume and a string of seasons with 200 innings pitched and double-digit win totals. but he had only posted sub-4.00 eras twice in five years (despite pitching in a pitcher's park) and had struggled with arm trouble; he was good but still a cut below buehrle. another comparable case is bartolo colon, traded halfway through the 2002 season at age 29 from the indians to the expos. and we might also take a look at curt schilling, traded in july 2000 (at age 33) from the phillies to the diamondbacks. both garcia and colon were in the walk year of their contract; schilling still had a full year left to run on his deal.

that's it --- 3 guys during this decade; 3 marquee pitchers in their prime. all the other pitchers traded in-season since 2000 have been good/great pitchers at the end of their careers (e.g. jamie moyer and greg maddux last season, chuck finley in 2002) or journeyman in the midst of good seasons (e.g., jeff suppan and sidney ponson in 2003), or just plain journeymen (jeff weaver last season; woody williams in 2001) or guys with potential. so let's just start with the three comparable cases and see what the acquiring teams had to give up in exchange:

  1. freddy garcia and ben davis to the white sox; jeremy reed, miguel olivo, and mike morse to the mariners, july 27, 2004:
    jeremy reed was the white sox answer to colby rasmus --- a high draft pick (2d round) who had moved swiftly through the chain and was projected to be the centerfielder of the future. baseball america had him as the #25 prospect in the minors that year (rasmus was at #29 when this season began). at the time of the trade he was almost major-league ready, having spent half a season at triple A; after the trade he got a september callup and hit .397 for seattle in 51 at-bats. rasmus is a better prospect than reed was (he's younger and has more power), but then buehrle is a better pitcher than garcia was.

    miguel olivo in 2004 was a 25-year-old catcher with good power potential; hasn't had a great career, but catchers capable of slugging .440 aren't a dime a dozen. there is no comparable player in the st louis system; bryan anderson will probably be a much better hitter by age 25, while molina has far less power potential at roughly the same age. this guy lies somewhere in between those two.

    the 3d player in the package, mike morse, was a 22-year-old shortstop who was slugging .536 at double A. one year after the trade he became the mariners' everyday shortstop and hit .278 / .349 / .370, but in 2006 he tore up his knee. still only 25, he's currently at triple A and hitting .313 / .383 / .485. the cardinals don't really have a comp for him; picture tyler greene with good stats, and you've got a rough idea.

  2. bartolo colon and tim drew to the expos; grady sizemore, cliff lee, brandon phillips, and lee stevens to the indians, june 27, 2002:
    grady sizemore you've heard of. at the time of the trade, he was a 20-year-old guy in class A. a 3d-rounder in the 2000 draft, he hadn't shown much yet and hadn't appeared on any top-prospect lists, but after joining the cleveland system he caught fire and by 2004 was in the big leagues to stay. a rough comp for the cardinals might be john jay, who is one level higher than sizemore was but also is 2 years older.

    you're also heard of brandon phillips, who was the real prize of the package, a 21-year-old shortstop who slugged .506 at double A during the first half that year and had just earned his promotion to triple A about a week before the trade. he got in 31 big-league at-bats that september and opened the 2003 season as the 7th-best prospect in baseball, per BA. he washed out in that trial and scuffled for several years before resurrecting his career with cincinnati last season. rasmus is a fair comp --- young, premium position, great stats.

    and you've heard of cliff lee, who at the time of the trade was 24 years old and had a 7-2 record at double A with a 3.23 era --- slightly less valuable than blake hawksworth (who is currently 24 and at triple A) but more valuable than adam ottavino (who is 22 and in A ball).

    lee stevens was a throw-in --- roughly equivalent to preston wilson.

  3. curt schilling to the dbacks; omar daal, nelson figueroa, travis lee, and vicente padilla to the phillies, july 26, 2000:
    funny to look back on this one. the centerpiece of the deal was travis lee, a 25-year-old first baseman in his 3d major-league season. he'd been the second overall selection in the 1996 draft and made it to the big league in less than two years, hitting 22 hr as a rookie in 1998. he was thought to have superstar potential but never lived up to it. chris duncan might serve here as a comp; he's probably a bit more valuable than lee was at that time, because he has compiled somewhat better big-league numbers to date, but lee still carried an aura and expectation of greatness.

    vicente padilla was a 22-year-old rookie getting his feet wet as a reliever; he had a 2.31 era at the time of the trade in 27 innings. his value was roughly equivalent to adam wainwright's value at this time last year; two years after the trade he entered the philadelphia rotation and posted back-to-back 14-win seasons for them.

    omar daal was a quasi-established starting pitcher, one year removed from a 215-inning, 16-9 season. he stunk in 2000 (2-10 at the time of the trade with a 7.22 era), but the following year he would make 32 starts for the phillies with a 13-7 record. you could call kip wells a comp, i suppose; a better comp might be jeff weaver circa july 2006.

    the last player, nelson figueroa, was like a healthy version of chris narveson --- a quadruple A pitcher in his mid-20s. he actually was pitching extremely well at the time of the trade, with a 9-4 record and 2.81 era in the hitter-friendly pcl; the phillies kept him at triple A after the acquisition, but the following year they got 13 starts out of the guy. he bounced around and never amounted to much.

that gives you a rough idea of who the cardinals might have to give up to get buehrle: very good young players with loads of future potential. rasmus, duncan, wainwright, jay, hawksworth --- guys like that. i can imagine the cardinals parting with john jay or hawksworth, but i doubt they would be enough to land buehrle; surely some other team could/would top that sort of an offer.

it'd change the cardinals' prospects a great deal if mark buehrle joined the club; with him and a healthy carp in the 2d half, they might very well lay waste to the weak nl central, and no team would relish the thought of facing st louis in the postseason. but history suggests that such an acquisition would be very costly --- too costly, in all likelihood, to make this a realistic option.

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lboros
I think that your link goes to some Rosenthal article on FoxSports about the Giants instead of the top sports stories.  FYI

by eglasier on Jun 12, 2007 9:58 AM EDT   0 recs

man, i've been sloppy lately
thanks, eglasier ---- link is fixed

by lboros on Jun 12, 2007 10:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow, that puts things in perspective
Buehrle is a great pitcher and hopefully a Cardinal next year, but if those other trades are even close for a comparison -- yikes.

Unless Reyes and possibly Mather are used as a centerpiece for a trade, Walt won't be able to pull that rabbit out of any hat.

I have seen Mather play three or four times in Springfield and love his offense, but on defense he was scarier than Duncan last year in the OF. We were able to use another AA masher last year in Evans, but Weaver was a throw-away.

Not even sure this would be enough to get it done -- Reyes, Mather and Narveson? Would the ChiSox ask for the moon and Rasmus?

Yikes...

When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 12, 2007 10:07 AM EDT   0 recs

given their stated needs
ie, centerfield and the bullpen, i can imagine they'd ask about rasmus and chris perez, to begin with. i wouldn't imagine such discussions would go very far.

by lboros on Jun 12, 2007 10:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No kidding
Highway robbery and also this is all speculation (thank god). Even in the watered-down NL Central, trading away the future for a good free-agent starter is scary. I'll admit I am intrigued by the guy because of his STL roots but see Burnett, A.J. when it comes to money.
When I open my eyes this whole season will be a dream...

by gforce on Jun 12, 2007 10:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

different
the difference is that burnett was a cardinal fan, from arkansas, while buehrle is a st louis guy, who went to jeffco

burnett never had any kind of st louis association, other than the fact he lived several hours away

as far as dealing for buerhle now, noway do u give up your best prospects, to me rasmus is untouchable, if they would take anthony, jay, even perez, maybe, but i cant see co;by being available

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 12, 2007 12:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

sorry gforce9
i reread your comment, and realized i was talking about something different from you

i see what you are saying that burnett went where the money was better, and you are worried buerhle may do the same, and the money for buerhle is undoubtedly going to be more than what burnett got

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 12, 2007 12:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Appeal of Reyes
Doesn't the White Sox's need for relief pitching and Reyes' fairly limited pitch arsenal make a perfect match?  A two-pitch right-hander who pitches for strike outs and fly balls?  Sounds like a reliever to me.  And the Cards are not hot on him, but more for personality than performance.  Reyes one-hit them last year, so the White Sox know what he's capable of.

Throw in an outfield prospect to two (not Rasmus) and maybe we have a deal?

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 12, 2007 1:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Their kinda guy
Just thinking about the kind of guys Jocketty/LaRussa/Duncan have brought in over the years, Buehrle fits their mold.  Not flashy, hard-working, no-nonsense guy who fits the old guard's version of what a "ballplayer" should be.  Duncan would have to love a fast-working lefty with control.  I wouldn't be suprised to see them go after him a little harder than some of the others that have gotten away recently.  

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Buehrle/Buehrle_bio.html

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Jun 12, 2007 4:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed
that they will push hard.  I think it will be motivated additionally by the public nature of his desire to come here.  That is, fans will expect that Buehrle will take a slightly less lucrative offer if it's from StL.  If he doesn't end up coming here, especially if no other acquisitions are made, the owners will be facing a lot of unhappy ticket holders.  That being said, I think it's patently obvious that Jocketty will not overbid on a FA.

by awpierce on Jun 12, 2007 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You know,
Beuhrle has been a key part of their rotation.  I wouldn't be surprised if the White Sox went ahead and re signed him.  Every staff should have a dependable left hander, and he's been theirs.  Anyway, he's going to get Zito money when he hits the free agent market and the Cardinals are not going to pay that kind of money to him.  My bottom line is that the White Sox may just keep him.

by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 10:17 AM EDT   0 recs

he reportedly has already rejected a deal
in the 30M neighborhood as recently as this past offseason.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 10:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would be surprised
the Sox GM is done spending the World Series money, and he's making a strong move toward guys that throw mid 90s.

Buehrle is neither.  

Also, I'm not sure anyone will get Zito money.  Since Zito ain't earning it.

by sdrone on Jun 12, 2007 10:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i think the hope is that buehrle gives a discount
the union frowns upon it, but it happens routinely. randy wolf did it this off-season, took a lesser deal to pitch for his hometown team, the dodgers, and be near his family. adam kennedy took a below-market offer because he wanted to play for the cardinals. that was the cards' strategy with aj burnett, an arkansan and lifelong cardinal fan; it was their strategy with jeff weaver.

i bet it won't hinge on the dollars, but rather the number of guaranteed years. the cards probably won't go beyond 4 guaranteed years; they'll structure any remaining years as vesting options. if that happens, and any other team offers buehrle 5 guaranteed years (and they probably will), it'll be difficult for him to justify accepting the cardinals' offer.

by lboros on Jun 12, 2007 11:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

risk and pitching contracts
I've heard that anything more than a 3-year commitment to a pitcher is essentially foolish, considering the potential risk of losing one or more of those years to major injury. That said, it really does seem as though the four- and five-year deals are the way to land the top tier free agents out there.

It makes me wonder if one effective way to mitigate the risk of signing a longer contract would be to front-load the contract, rather than backloading it, as is the comon practice today. For example, we guarantee something on the order of $15m, $13m, $13m, $10m, $9m for a total value of $50 mil over the next five years. If he flames out or gets injured and we want to trade him after year 3, his remaining salary looks like a lower risk acquisition for other clubs.

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 11:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You'd rather just eat the salary
Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on Jun 12, 2007 12:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why do you say that?
I'm no accounting expert. How would eating larger salaries later in the contract, and getting potentially little value in return, be better? (sincerely, I'd like to know.)

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 12:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed
One of the things the Dodgers have been "successful" with in the last couple of years is going w/ money beyond what is generally seen as market value, but fewer years -- Randy Wolf, Rafael Furcal, Jason Schmidt.  Schmidt's injuries this year have called into question how successful it's been but it's a good idea nonetheless, even if Schmidt turns out to be ineffective for those 3 years.  

The idea is that bad contracts are generally bad because they last too long, not because they pay too much money.  Witness deals like Dreifort, Hampton, Neagle, even Bagwell's in Houston.  They end up costing the teams a lot of money b/c they last 2-3 years longer than they should have.  So the Dodgers essentially buy themselves out of the 5 year contracts with a couple extra million $ each year of 3.  It's a pretty good plan.  I doubt Buehrle, a 28 year old pitcher who will get 5 year offers, will go for it but, if the Cards are going to get involved (still not sure they should) this is how they should do it.

by chuckb on Jun 12, 2007 12:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Trade vs. FA signing
I still am more inclined to look to 2008 or 2009 than 2007 for another winner.  I'd perfer to take my chances in the FA market to get Buehrle, that is if he really wants to play in the 'Lou.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 10:18 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm with you
if only because we'd be pillaging our farm system that's barely getting back on it's feet.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 10:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Me, too
this is especially true if the Cards think they can sign him in the offseason.  Why pay a premium for an extra 2 months of Buehrle?  He might help us win 1 division title, but losing Rasmus, Perez, Anderson or others could end up costing us several.

by chuckb on Jun 12, 2007 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The reason to go for him now
is to sign him before he starts getting crazy offers from other teams.  If he becomes a free agent we won't be able to sign him.  Any team that trades top prospects for him will view him as more than a rental and will pay whatever it takes to keep him.

by Stanfan6 on Jun 12, 2007 1:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't know
Given the deals made this winter by the White Soxs, it seems like their GM has chosen his path for reviving an aging team. The offensive core is there to stay (Thome and Konerko). They key is adding talented young starters to bolster the two vets (Contreras and Vasquez). In trading both Garcia to the Phills and McCarthy to the Rangers, the Soxs got young pitching in return.

I see no reason why any trade between the Cards and White Soxs would not begin with one name:
Anthony Reyes

They pivotal question is what players you add around reyes to get a deal done.

by JMedwick on Jun 12, 2007 10:27 AM EDT   0 recs

I agree
The White Sox are on some young pitching kick. Plus, it seems teams value young players much more now then even just a couple years ago. Free agents are getting more now than ever before.

by Carps on Jun 12, 2007 10:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Second.
See my comments above.  I think this has Reyes written all over it.
So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 12, 2007 1:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

One more thing
Given the Mets struggles against lefties, in a dream world where the Cards eek into the playoffs, a combo of Mulder and Buehrle (along with Carp) might be a damn fine trio.

by JMedwick on Jun 12, 2007 10:28 AM EDT   0 recs

Well, if Buerhle has already turned down
a 30 million dollar deal, Cardinal fans, you can just forget about it. There is absolutley no way they would match that offer.  I still think the White Sox are going to keep him and re-sign him--or he'll end up somewhere like Yankees, Mets or Dodgers.  I don't want to trade the handfull of prospects we have on a player we won't be able to sign.

by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 10:34 AM EDT   0 recs

Home town discount
and all that.  

Remember: Rolen declined a deal with the Phils before signing with us for identical money.  These things happen.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 12, 2007 1:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, but the Phillies
are on the verge of losing their 10,000 game.  Their fans and their press  are brutal, and Scotty appears to be a gentle soul.  I think for him it would be anywhere but there......

by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 5:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

um, why not?
they already have three players making more (carp, pujols, scotty) and two more making almost as much (jimmy, izzy). and izzy comes off this year, and jimmy comes off next year. heck, replace izzy with one of the young guys, and wells with buehrle, and even at $12m/year you're pretty much breaking even.

that said, even $12m/year would be a heckuva hometown discount. but if, hypothetically, buehrle wanted 3/36, i don't see how jock passes that up.

in any event, to say 3/30 is absolutely out of the question, i just think that's flat wrong.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jun 12, 2007 7:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Buerhle, etc.
I've thought over the last couple of years how great it would be to see Mark Buerhle in a Cardinal uni.  My feelings on the subject haven't changed one iota, but I wouldn't want the Cards to make a deal for him, considering the cost.  

I think there's a very good chance that MB signs with the Cards in the offseason, regardless of which franchise he files for free agency from.  Of course, the Cardinals could always screw up the whole deal thinking Buerhle will take more of a discount than he really will.  But, that's for December baseball talk.  

I think, in the situation the Cardinals find themselves in, the best possible move is to stand pat this season.  They should sell off some of the mid range veteran talent they have, (Juan, Flores, Franklin, maybe some of those types) and one or two of their borderline young guys, (Thompson, maybe, that sort) to help set up the club for a run next year.  

This team will need an addition the magnitude of Buerhle to really become a competitor this season, and I think the long term cost to the team would be too great.  I'm perfectly willing to see the Birds take their lumps this year to preserve the positive momentum going forward.  (in terms of player development, etc.)  Let some other team that's closer to winning big rent Buerhle for a month or two, then sign him over the offseason.  Carp, Muldoo, Buerhle, Wainwright, and maybe Hawksworth or whoever will be plenty scary for teams to face in October 2008.  Don't sell off the farm now, you're so close to actually harvesting something.  

Of all the trades above, I think the Bartolo Colon one is an unusual case, and maybe a little misleading.  At the time, the Indians were in massive salary dump mode, and the Expos were facing contraction.  It was the Montreal franchise's stated position, (I don't recall if Minaya was still the GM at the time) that they were trying to get some of their talent moved, just in case the whole thing was contracted.  They were just trying to get some of the guys they thought deserved a shot into organisations they were sure would be there in two years.  (Cliff Lee, esp.)  They took on Colon's salary, not to contend, but simply because they thought it would all be off the books soon at the time.  

I have a 3rd cousin who actually worked in the Expos' front office at the time, (not anyone important, just an assistant) and I remember him telling me how strange it was to watch an organisation, with Minaya at first then whoever they got to replace him, just attempting to get ball players off the rosters, as if you were trying to get people into lifeboats to escape a sinking ship.  It was really a bizarre time.  He ended up losing his job when they moved, moved to Rancho Cucamonga, and works with the Angels' affiliate there.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:36 AM EDT   0 recs

I just Realized
my previous comment may have sounded like I was saying Larry was being misleading.  That wasn't what I meant at all.  My point was that both organisations were in special circumstances, which affected the amount going back and forth.  The Expos, in particular, were in a very bizarre situation, and so I think that trade comes out a little strange when you try to compare it to any others.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i'm not disputing what you say about contraction
obviously the expos had little to no incentive to hang on to their prospects --- they had no future, so why hang onto future talent?

but there was more to the trade than air-lifting guys off a sinking ship. the expos were legitimate contenders in 2002. at the time of the trade they were in 2d place, 7 games behind the braves, and 2d in the wild-card, 6 games behind the dbacks. they had an extremely talented roster --- vlad guerrero, jose vidro, orlando cabrera, a pre-injury brad wilkerson, brian schnieder. the pitching staff already featured javy vazquez; with the addition of colon, they had a pretty potent 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation. they got as close as 4 games out in the wild-card chase before collapsing down the stretch.

by lboros on Jun 12, 2007 10:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You're Right
they were a little closer to contending than I remember.  It was still a bad, bad situation, and I was mostly going by what my cousin Kyle told me at the time.  

Like I said, it wasn't supposed to be directed at you, Larry.  All of the trades involving the Expos at the end, though, took on an added dimension that isn't usually there in MLB deals.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, it's stomach-turning to look at
The raping of the Expos is one of the great atrocities of the Selig regime - far worse than the All-Star game fiasco or even his current embarrassment about steroids and Bonds, he essentially stewarded the destruction of a franchise, but somehow saved face by foisting them upon the Washington DC taxpayers.

The talent loss is staggering:

  • Grady Sizemore
  • Cliff Lee
  • Brandon Phillips
  • Javier Vazquez
  • Bartolo Colon
  • Orlando Hernandez
  • Carl Pavano (when he was promising)
  • Michael Barrett
  • Chris Young (the pitcher for San Diego)
... All lost within that timespan. In return for all this, the Expos have only Nick Johnson and John Patterson currently on the roster.

And this was all done with the express consent of the 31 co-owners of the franchise, who all had their hands out.

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 10:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, no question.
In fact, I think they were forced to let Valdy walk and hit the open market, because he was too good a player for any of the 31 co-owners to agree on which one of them should get him.

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 11:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That franchise was famous for bleeding talent
though--remember Pedro and Larry Walker?

by Valatan on Jun 12, 2007 11:02 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and
randy johnson and delino deshields and moises alou and later, cliff lee, etc...

by sdesserman on Jun 12, 2007 11:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How about...
Reyes, Rasmus and Tyler Johnson for a soft-tossing lefty...sound familiar???

by cardzfanbub on Jun 12, 2007 10:40 AM EDT   0 recs

Oh, oh......
I hear what you're saying there.......

by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 10:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Shows What You Know
Kiko Calero is right handed.  See, totally different scenarios.  Sheesh.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I considered that...
but didn't have anybody to put in his place.  Maybe Josh Kinney???  Had to go with our best pre-arb middle reliever.

by cardzfanbub on Jun 12, 2007 10:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I was just joking
but yeah, I guess Kinney would be the closest possible guy.  Maybe Thompson.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mark Buehrle vs Javier Vazquez
I wonder if it was Vazquez and not Buehrle that was on the table, would the Cards be more inclined to give up more in a deal? Vazquez is under contract for another year (at $13 mil, high but not unpalatable) after this one, which gives us more long-term assurances. Plus, Vazquez is more of a rolling stone - has been traded three times already, despite putting up raw numbers very similar to Buerhle, if not better than:

Career WHIP: MB 1.252 ... JV 1.269
Career K/BB: MB 2.55  ... JV 3.24 (!)
Career K/9: MB 5.25  ... JV 7.8

Vazquez would be 31, older than Buehrle but not decrepit.

The big knock on Vazquez is that his ERA and W/L is always worse than these numbers would suggest. (Witness last night, giving up three solo home runs on his only three hits allowed to the Phillies through six innings.) But given his age and the liveness of his stuff, he could become a dominant #2 under Duncan.

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 10:41 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm not a big fan
of Vazquez.  He reminds me of Kip Wells, in a way.  Guy who has always had overwhelming stuff, but, as you said, seems to find a way to be worse than he should be.  He's been better than Wells overall in his career, but his teams have been better.  Both of them are prone to the same sorts of lapses, both mental and command wise.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 10:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I know what you're saying
In fact, I see Vazquez as the replacement for Wells in Duncan's list of projects, only with much better upside. He strikes me as the kind of guy that, if you could get through to him mentally and coach him on game-planning -- or give him that reliable ground-ball weapon -- would get out of a lot more innings than he does today.

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 10:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree.
Unfortunately, those are the exact things I always thought about the Kipper.  

His upside, if you could figure him out, would be huge, though.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 11:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Vasquez
signed a three year, 34.5 million dollar extension with the White Sox this spring.  He'll be there until 2010, barring a trade.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006668470

I don't see the White Sox trading him, but I suppose it's not out of the question.  

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Jun 12, 2007 11:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hadn't seen that
Thanks for the update.

A deal for Vazquez is still not inconceivable, but looks far less likely now. It would hinge on the Sox brass deciding that they'd rather take a big chunk of that money back and reinvest it in keeping Buehrle in the rotation instead, and it doesn't sound like they're interested in doing that.  

by taiko on Jun 12, 2007 11:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It seems to me
that Kenny Williams is/was planning for Buehrle's departure.  He's traded for a lot of young arms (Gio Gonzalez, Gavin Floyd, John Danks and Nick Masset), so it appears that they are covered if  Buehrle isn't coming back.  Rumors around here state that IF he's traded, it's likely to a NL team -- the senior curcuit hasn't seen as much of him as the AL has, so he may be more effective pitching in the NL, for a while anyway.  

I expect the Cards to make a run at him.  I'm not sure that the Cards are willing to offer what it might take to acquire his services, but I'm sure Walt is going to try.  It might not be for this year, but certainly in free agency.

I expect Buehrle will be traded at the deadline.  

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Jun 12, 2007 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Great post
While we throw around speculation about what might get a deal done, thanks to Larry for quantifying things and giving us some perspective.  This is more proof the Cardinals should be sellers and not buyers.  It's hard to see Buehrle as worth any of these comparable combinations.

I'm also not so sure the hometown kid will return via free agency.  I remember the same talk when Buehrle was a free agent after the '03 season - Cardinals fan, wants to play close to home, etc.  I even talked to a friend-of-a-friend who relayed that Buehrle would be a Cardinal.

Instead, he resigned with the White Sox for 3 years and $18 mil (plus option year).  Pitcher salaries have obviously exploded since then, but even at the time the contract was a reasonable value.  Consider that Buehrle's '03 deal was very comparable to what the Cardinals paid Woody Williams over the same period.

Given that fact, I have to ASSUME the Cardinals made Buehrle an offer within striking distance of the White Sox and, despite being a Cardinals fan and all that, he showed no interest in the old hometown discount.  If anyone has actual data on what the Cards may have offered in '03, please share.

I expect Buehrle's love of the Cardinals to factor into his next contract decision exactly as much.  That would mean the only way to lure him home is with $$$, and it will take a lot more than 18 million this time.

by bgodar on Jun 12, 2007 10:58 AM EDT   0 recs

You are
spot on.  I also either read or heard a comment that Beuhrle didn't want to play so close to home, because there would be too many distractions.  So, either he's a life long Cardinal fan who would like to pitch here or he's a life long Cardinal fan who would not want the distraction of pitching here !!  Well, I think the White Sox are going to re sign him.....

by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 11:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Buerhle's Comments
For what it's worth, Buerhle made his comments about there being too many distractions right after he had proclaimed a desire to pitch in St. Louis at a baseball writer's dinner.  Kenny Williams, the Sox GM, starting raising hell about it, then Buerhle backed off and made his other statements.  He could have been backpedaling, he might have actually meant what he said, who's to say?  At the time, though, it definitely seemed as if he were just trying to cover for making some unguarded, ill advised comments earlier in St. Louis.  
Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 11:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you are right
and thought so at the time it happened.  He was backpedaling from having loose lips while in StL.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 11:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A quote from Buehrle
... on the occasion of signing his '03 deal with the White Sox:

"I hope the fans realize when you sign for three years -- and it could be four years -- we can stop that talk about the Cardinals."

Here's hoping, but doubting, the quote will be different this off season.

by bgodar on Jun 12, 2007 11:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He wasn't ever a free agent
Arbitration...sole negotiating rights.
Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on Jun 12, 2007 12:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My mistake
Thanks for the correction, joker24.  The Sox controlled Buehrle through '06 regardless - the '03 deal avoided future arbitration and gave them a club option for '07.  So that deal doesn't really shed any light on what Buehrle might do as a free agent.

by bgodar on Jun 12, 2007 1:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If they can sign him to an extension
before they pull the trigger on the trade, I don't see using Rasmus as the centerpiece of a trade as insanity.  I'm inclined to think that the June offense is the real offense.  If the rotation gets stabilized, then the team really isn't that bad.  John Jay is continuing to hit at Springfield, and he makes Rasmus a little bit more expendible

Getting Buehrle isn't that horrible of a move for 2008 (once again, if he can be signed to an extension)--we would start out 2008 with a rotation of Carp, Buehrle, Mulder, Wainwright, and a fifth guy who should be Reyes.  The offense will still largely be in order.

But yeah, losing a package of players, and then losing Buehrle would be pretty crushing.

by Valatan on Jun 12, 2007 10:59 AM EDT   0 recs

I have to disagree
Even if they could get an extension done prior to the deal, I would still hope they wouldn't let go of Rasmus.  Jay looks like he may be a nice player, but he definitely doesn't have the overall upside of Rasmus.  

I think Colby could be the sort of CF you can really build around.  I'm not sure I feel the same way about Jay.  He seems a little better suited to be a complementary player, as opposed to a centerpiece.  

Also, I don't think that giving up a prospect of Rasmus's magnitude is worth the slim chance that the Cardinals could really contend this season.  I know the division is weak, but if you have a good chance to get the player without giving up anything, (short of a draft pick) I think that would be much better than letting a big part of the team's future go.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 12, 2007 11:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not saying that Jay is as good as Rasmus
that's clearly insane.  I'm saying that having Jay makes losing Rasmus sting significantly worse.  Getting Buehrle or any other starter in the offseason is a crapshoot,a nd if a deal could be made that would a) allow the cardinals to contend this year, b) shore up the rotation for next year, and a few years to come and c) sap the minor league system at its strength--outfield prospects; you'd have to think long and hard about it.

Perhaps it's just that I value prospects less than a lot of other people around here but if he agrees to an extension before the fact, I'd probably trade Rasmus, a bullpen arm like Kinney or Johnson, and a Skip Schumaker for Buehrle.

by Valatan on Jun 12, 2007 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs