confronting mortality

by lboros on May 3, 2007 9:17 AM EDT in News Comment 93 comments

it's a day of mourning, and a great many cardinal fans' thoughts will be in tupelo. the comments thread is open for expressions appropriate to the occasion, if anybody wants/needs an outlet. but --- today only --- i will censor any and all discussion about the possible cause(s) of the fatal crash. that conversation can be resumed another day, for those who are interested; i hope any further dialogue will give rise to less aggravation than we saw yesterday morning.

the thread is also open for regular ol' baseball talk --- which, of late, has been a form of mourning unto itself around here. think back just one week, to last thursday --- the cards rallied from a 4-0 hole to beat the reds, 7-5, and win their second straight series. they were back within a game of .500 and beginning to look like themselves. the following night they rallied again, shaving 2 runs off a 3-run deficit and putting the tying run on 3d with nobody out in the 8th inning with rolen and edmonds due up. we were all feeling pretty good at that instant, no? that was only 6 days ago. alas, they couldn't get the runner home, zambrano beat them the next day, hancock died, and now the whole season is being written off.

i still think it's too soon to do that --- and i say so without cardinal kool-aid on my lips or rose-colored lenses over my eyes. i've watched every game; you don't need to tell me how awful the cardinals have been. they're having to confront their mortality in a baseball sense this year, as well as in the literal sense --- the cardinals as we have known them might very well be dead. but don't forget, they looked dead last year too, when they played four months of baseball as brutal as the one we've just endured. then, just as october began, jim edmonds got healthy. . . .

nobody is confronting his baseball mortality quite as starkly as jimmy. i wrote at the beginning of the season that "the fate of the st. louis offense may well rest in [edmonds'] hands" (see the last sentence of question no 2), and so far its fate has indeed mirrored his fate. if it's up to edmonds to bail them out, the outlook ain't so bright. at sports illustrated yesterday, albert chen had this statement from an unnamed scout:

Bottom line: they're not going to finish .500 without a healthy Jim Edmonds. It's pretty clear that his shoulder is still bothering him. His swing isn't right. I know they're hoping he can play himself into shape, but that may not be realistic. This team is toast without him.

i agree with the scout: the team is toast without edmonds, and it may not be realistic to think that he can play himself into shape this year. the more i see of him, the more i am convinced it won't happen. but i have to say, i didn't hear many shouts of protest when the cards re-signed him back in november. on the contrary, if the cards had failed to bring him back, i think the fan base would have stormed busch III and torn it down brick by brick. collectively, we wanted him to "retire a cardinal" --- and the owners gave us what we wanted.

and the truth is, there weren't many other options. there were only two viable centerfielders on the market --- gary matthews and dave roberts, the latter of whom i wrote about a few days after the season. matthews is past 30 and signed for too much money; roberts is only a couple of years younger than edmonds, and so far this year he's got a .655 ops. there was also some talk of shifting encarnacion to center field and signing a corner outfielder, but there were really only three good hitters on the market: carlos lee, alfonso soriano, and moises alou. all three are on the wrong side of 30 --- hell, alou is on the wrong side of 40 --- and lee and soriano both signed massive contracts that drew scorn throughout the baseball world. guys like dave dellucci and trot nixon and craig wilson were out there; they, too, are all older than 30. the indians signed dellucci for 3 years at $4m per --- an absolute steal --- but if the cards had signed dellucci to the same deal, dumped edmonds, and moved juan'cion to cf, how loud and long would the fans have howled "cheapskates!"?

the time to get younger was the 2005-06 off-season. it was the last time the cardinals had a surplus from which to trade --- a surplus of starting pitching. st louis was returning four "established" starters --- carp, marquis, supps, and mulder --- and had two rookies in the pipeline, reyes and wainwright. the plan going into the winter was to sign a pitcher and then trade marquis for a 20something outfielder --- names like kevin mench and brad wilkerson were being bandied about. but when the best pitcher the cardinals could afford was sidney ponson, they didn't feel they had sufficient depth in the rotation to deal from it. they also didn't feel comfortable handing a starting outfield job, or even a platoon role, to their 28-year-old reclamation, john rodriguez --- so they tapped the pool of so-so 30somethings and signed encarnacion.

the cardinals also may have toyed with the idea of trading edmonds to the yankees for robinson cano and chien-ming wang in november 2005, before the yankees landed johnny damon and while brian giles was still on the free-agent market. no telling how credible that rumor ever was; in light of subsequent events, i think there might very well have been some truth behind it. but even if that's the case, the rumor i heard is that the cardinals made the offer, and the yankees turned it down . . . . the precipitious drop in edmonds' skills may not have been entirely unanticipated.

if that's the case, then the front office's biggest mistake this off-season was in failing to acquire an adequate backup for a player they knew was at serious risk of washing out. they knew last november that edmonds and encarnacion were both ailing and might need significant help; their solution was to bring back spiezio wilson taguchi and schumaker, with the first pair supposed to provide offense off the bench and the latter two there to play defense. a month into the season, those solutions look pretty inadequate.

but they're not really the problem. edmonds is the problem.

is he a lost cause? at this time last season (ie, after 26 games) edmonds was nearly as bad as he is this season:

	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	BB	SO	\|	AVG	OBP	SLG
2006	79	12	16	4	0	4	12	24	\|	.203	.304	.405
2007	76	5	16	1	1	1	9	19	\|	.211	.294	.289

the rest of the way last year, edmonds went .273 / .364 / .491. it's a different season and he's a year older; there's nothing to say he's going to heat up again, as he did in 2006. the odds are probably against it. but if he doesn't, we'll have all summer and fall to lament the fact and to discuss how best to untangle the knot for next year. why give up 26 games into the season? just a week ago things were looking hopeful; a week hence, maybe they'll be looking hopeful again.

0 recs | Comment 93 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

What the team goes thru this long thursday ...

will hopefully be a watershed event of bonding - and catharsis - that they can move positively forward from.

by Urban Pawnee on May 3, 2007 9:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Musings

Great column. I agree that it's far too early to write off the Cardinals' season because 1) it's a long season that just got going; 2) April can be very fluky 3) there are too many variables at play in St. Louis to make any definitive prognostication.

Still, based on early returns, the Brewers and Cubs will be battling for supremacy in the NL Central come September. I like the Brewers pitching, but I wonder if the defense might eventually betray them. The Cubs have a very good lineup, but the pen is scary and the bad Jason Marquis is lurking somewhere.

Re Jimmy, we have to remember how long it takes to recuperate a surgically-repaired shoulder. They are complex, fickle joints with many moving parts. But I agree that the brass could have hedged their bets better last winter. The Delucci deal makes me wonder if Walt was napping on this one.

by Hungry Jack on May 3, 2007 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

They'll play better baseball in May

They can't get much worse, right? With the combination of the WS hangover, significant injuries, horribly slow starts, and "get your head out of your ass" defense - this team deserves to be in the hole that it's dug itself into.

I can easily see Jimmy "breaking out" like he did at this time last year. My concern is that his shoulder is worse than what he lets on. Chances are he won't have the power that we're all accustomed to.

As far as this team goes - it may not happen this weekend, but they'll get re-focused. What happened to the "hard nine" boys? I just don't see a focused, tough-as-nails, grind-it-out mentality in this team. And the same core group of leadership is there.

Things will change for the better. Carpenter will pitch next week. The staff will have the stabilizing force back; hopefully to stay. I think that's a bigger lift than any of us can imagine. Who is the voice of reason in the rotation? Who can you count on right now, to every 5th day, give you the legit possibility of throwing a CG SO?

I just hope this team hasn't dug too deep a hole.

by silent_bob on May 3, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

mourning

I will keep all of "my boys" in my prayers today, this is going to be tough. Thanks for putting an end to comments about the cause of the accident for this one day. That said, I agree w/ Larry. It is too early to write this team off. They will get better, but only if they regain some focus. I've been reading along all winter (thanks for getting me through the off-season of NO Baseball!), but this is my first post. This is the best place for intelligent talk about the game (and team) I love.

by cardsgirl95 on May 3, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Blame Game

I'm not really sure it's fair to blame Edmonds, not that you really are. I agree wholeheartedly that the front office doesn't have an adequate "backup plan".

I really appreciate everything that Edmonds has done for the Cardinals, but realistically, he's been in decline ever since that monster month (July?) he had in 2004. 2007 Edmonds is not the same as 2002 Edmonds, and should be treated as such, especially since he is coming off of two surgeries and possible lingering post-concussion effects.

They really need a better fourth outfielder that can regularly platoon with Jimmy, who right now is really looking like he could use some rest. I wouldn't be surprised if this is another case of bringing back a player from surgery/injury too soon, not that that has happened in recent memory. ;)

Seriously, I have to wonder if we'd be much better off shutting him down for a while, let him get the cranky shoulder back into shape, and then bring him back for the rest of the season. Yeah, it may be too late by then, but what is he really contributing now?

It definitely is too early to write everything off, but it doesn't look especially good either, pinning our hopes on our aging centerfielder. Jimmy and Scotty play so hard, I wonder what their play-adjusted ages really are?

Maybe we should just hook Jimmy up with Barry Bond's guys...

by sgfcards on May 3, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds

I've no problem with them bringing Jimmy back. But, as we've all discussed before, they should've just exercised the option they had on him, rather than devote two years of salary to him. I love Jimmy, but if he can't play, who really thinks he's going to retire at the end of this season and pass up the extra $$$?

by raisin on May 3, 2007 9:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually

I think he might. Otherwise I believe he will bust his ass to come back next year in great shape and go out on a good note. He has too much pride to do it any other way IMHO.

by Zubin on May 3, 2007 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds' shoulder

In this column it talks about Edmond's shoulder having "discomfort". Hindsight being 20/20, maybe the DL would have been the best place for JE to have started the season.

by bdief on May 3, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, exactly

They should have just picked up the option.

Adding a second year at 8MM was a big risk. Even if they get to defer a chunk of this years salary.

The hope now has to be from THIS POINT forward that Edmonds can have a .750+ OPS and play very good defense. That is possible and the Cardinals could win the weak NL Central with that contribution from CF.

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on May 3, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm wondering how much Edmonds'

production this year is due to his shoulder. He is, unquestionably, the biggest problem with our offense right now and people are probably tiring of reading my writing about it. But he just can't pull the ball with any authority right now. I just don't know whether playing will help rebuild the strength or what needs to be done to get him right, but he's no better than So right now, offensively or defensively.

That said, I was behind his being re-signed this offseason. I saw no viable alternative and a $3M buyout and decided that he's going to be worth the extra $16M over 2 years. At the time, I thought it was the right call though it may turn out to have been a bad decision. As I see it, the Cards main problem right now is age and lack of productivity from our CF, our RF, and our SS and, unfortunately, I just don't see any help coming. I don't know how they're going to get out of this hole so they're just going to have to ride Edmonds and Eckstein for this season and cross their fingers.

by chuckb on May 3, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree w/ CardsGirl95...

I agree w/ everything CardsGirl95 stated. There is still PLENTY of baseball left to play. Let the team get through today, and reflect on the positives rather than the negatives. Maybe they should watch the WS games from last year! I haven't missed watching and/or listening to a game yet, and I don't plan on it anytime soon. They're still a great team.

by CardsGirlInTX on May 3, 2007 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

encarncaion

When we signed Juan I thouhgt that either this year if the declined Edmonds option or next year if they did not he would be our starting centerfielder. His 275 20 80 line would look a lot better in center than in right. I know he gets hated on a lot but he can play a good enough center field. I am starting to think they should blow up this team. The only problem is since they are so bad they will not get much return.

by gocards80 on May 3, 2007 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Play Wilson everyday

If he was good enough to start 3 world series games, play him, bat him in front of Pujols, he has some pop and is fast.....I think Miles should play almost everyday as well...gets on base, runs well, and please get Duncan batting 5th behind Rolen and bat edmonds 7th for a while, with a healthy Carp, Loop, and Reyes is oh so close, I still think we will be ok, 85-90 wins

I was there, Ice cold Busch stadium, section 597, row 10, seat 4...October 27, 2006 when Wainwright nailed down long awaited #10

by MississippiCardMan on May 3, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wilson is not an everyday player

and he's certainly not an everyday player that belongs at the top of a lineup card.

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on May 3, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sigh

preston wilson "has some pop"

2007: .203/.242/.305
career: .263/.328/.468

and "is fast"

SB/CS, 2004-2007: 21/10; average of 5.25 steals/year.

so, whether you think his career "pop" will return or not, that obp has absolutely no business whatsoever in the 2 slot. none. at all. and if he "is fast" at this point in his career, he certainly isn't using it to steal bases.

aaron miles "gets on base"

career obp: .321

so yes, he does get on base. but not very often. by comparison, career obp of the two guys he would be replacing:

kennedy .331
eck .349

aaron miles also "runs well"

career SB/CS, in basically three full seasons:

18/11.

so, aaron miles, much like preston wilson, does not run either often or well, if we are measuring by stolen bases. maybe he hustles those three steps over to second for the flip on double plays?

i agree that rf and 2b/ss are areas needing improvement. preston wilson and aaron miles are not the right answers.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 3, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just trying to think of something

maybe we should bench rolen again for a few games and see if he hits like he did in the world series

I was there, Ice cold Busch stadium, section 597, row 10, seat 4...October 27, 2006 when Wainwright nailed down long awaited #10

by MississippiCardMan on May 3, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot someone

A free agent corner outfielder with a career OBP of .392 and OPS of .900. 31 years old coming off his second best season. Of course, you forgot the stud name a J.D. Drew.

PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on May 3, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well...

I don't think Drew should really count. We all know what Tony thinks of him so he wasn't really a realistic option for us. If it wasn't for his history with the team I would have been in favor of taking a run at him though, I think he's kind of gotten a bad rap and .300/.400/.500 guys don't grow on trees.

by mikedallas23 on May 3, 2007 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I get no pleasure at all seeing

our boys play like this, or seeing JEd in his current condition. But as a strong believer in youth, if this is what it takes to force this team to give its young talent a chance to play, so be it.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 3, 2007 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Down here in Springfield

This afternoon is the "2007 Major League Baseball Forecast Luncheon" presented by the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame. Josh Kinney and John Rooney were the scheduled guests/speakers. I called yesterday to see if they'd still be there since Thursday is the funeral. They said Rooney was still coming but Josh Kinney was "unconfirmed." I'm not expecting to see him today. In fact I hope he's not here.

It's from 11 to 1 today. Should be interested to hear what Rooney has to say about everything, though I'm not really sure what the speaking part is focused on. I imagine there will be some talk of JH32. I'll post a diary if it's worth repeating. (I doubt it'll be anything controversial.)

by effin fisk on May 3, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds was only part of the puzzle

I was OK with the Edmonds re-signing, because it provides a nice bridge to Colby Rasmus, our supposed Centerfielder of the Future. My expectations were that Edmonds could still play above-average defense and still get on base at a good clip, qualities which are still uncommon in a replacement centerfielder.

But my expectations were also that they'd go find a bopper to replace his waning power, either in RF or (less likely) at 2B. Obviously in retrospect it's not only his power that has waned, but I still felt the signing could be justified at the time.

by Hastur on May 3, 2007 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i don't have it in front of me

but jed was quoted in on of the last couple of weeks sporting news regarding the team's overall complacency, or lack of sense of urgency having won the championship. perhaps he was reflecting his own feelings?

that having been said, my heart is no more in the outcome of this week's games than the team's appear to be.

by sdesserman on May 3, 2007 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with Urban Pawnee

Knowing what little I know about LaRussa and the players, I think there's a real chance that the team comes together and makes a nice run after today. I also agree that it'd be nice if Edmonds could pull himself together, but I don't think that all is lost if he doesn't. A productive Duncan-Pujols-Rolen and a calmed-down pitching staff will still carry this team a long way.

by Archaeopteryx on May 3, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Toast?

If we are toast without Edmonds...I'm afraid we are toast. I desperately hope I am wrong, but nothing I've seen from the guy leads me to believe he'll ever be productive again.

Larry makes a pretty good point when comparing Edmonds start last year to this year. Except look at the huge difference in SLG. He can't drive the ball anymore. If you can't run, and can't drive the ball you are going to need an extremely high line drive % to be effective.

I hope he comes around, but I won't be the "blue guy" waiting for him to do so.

DFA Wils....Arghhh!!! I can't even figure out who I hate the worst right now.

by bobbyballgame1 on May 3, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The DL

I know we all want to see Walt make a big play for a great outfielder to either replace Jimmy or Juan, but in all likelihood it isn't going to happen. But with how Edmonds is playing and how Juan's been hitting at Springfield, I don't really see any other way of saving any offense from the outfield other than Duncan, who NEEDS to be moved down to protect Scott.

by 3rdgencardsfan on May 3, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not The DL

I was originally going to say something about Jim going on the DL when Juan got back. Sorry about the botched subject, I'm still kind of new here.

by 3rdgencardsfan on May 3, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just talked to a customer in tupelo

said the streets are blocked off, kmov is down there as well as a whole media circus....so sad, also said that dean hancock is a great guy and is involved in lots of fundraising...just sad sad sad

I was there, Ice cold Busch stadium, section 597, row 10, seat 4...October 27, 2006 when Wainwright nailed down long awaited #10

by MississippiCardMan on May 3, 2007 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Tavarez

A little off topic I know.. my thoughts are with the Cardinals, Josh Hancock, and his family today... I'm decked out in Cardinal red here in Chicagoland trying to show all the support I can.

However, I read that when Lester comes back from the DL for the Red Sox, they will need to get rid of a pitcher via waivers or a trade since none of their pitchers have options left. Tavarez is listed as the main candidate to be let go and the Cards were listed as a team that would possibly interested in him.

What do you guys think? I've been impressed with the little I've seen from Jiminez and Dove so far but Tavarez would definitely give a boost to our bullpen. Plus, I always liked the intensity he brought to the ballpark everyday.

Thoughts?

President of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club. : D

by stltrav09 on May 3, 2007 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Isn't he

a LOOGY?

Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on May 3, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nope

Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on May 3, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like it

bring some fire to the team.

Call up Ankiel!!

by jeff abs on May 3, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please do not

bring back Tavarez. He may have been reliable in the regular season when he was here, but what happened in the NLCS when we really needed him? The nitwit punches a dugout phone/wall and breaks two fingers. Could we really expect a guy like that to help stabilize the bullpen?

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by TurdFerguson on May 3, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The bullpen is already stable

We need to stabilize the rest of the team--find a partner that has a dearth in the bullpen and a logjam of outfielders

by Valatan on May 3, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds isn't the only problem

Edmonds hit .257 last year and played in 110 games.

Now if this is the player this team hinges upon, we were in deep trouble before the season started.

One starter batting over .300.
Our middle infieldres at .220 and .219
The void in right field.

The complete lack of any ability to hit a sac. fly or sac. bunt.

And let's face it... our team relied on Albert to win a lot of games last year. He's not the same this year. Maybe the Albert from last year will return. Maybe the organization will admit some Pujols injury. Whatever.

If you ask me, our trouble is not with Edmonds... its with a different person: Hal McRae.

by redbird2006in on May 3, 2007 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Walk your dog AND Pujols, AND Edmonds

Long time reader, first time poster. I wanted to feel more a part of the community, especially in the middle of a tough day and what might be a tough season.

I think Larry hit on it in one of his earlier posts---our batters' walk rate is alarming, isn't it? I don't blame opposing pitchers--if no one other than Duncan, Pujols, or Rolen are going to take you deep, then why not just come after everyone? We do need Edmonds in the middle of the lineup to be a threat to hit one out of the park, but I think that pitchers right now know that they can come after him, and even if he does make contact, he's not going to hurt them.

From the stats I have, it appears that Pujols is walking about 1 of every 10 plate appearances, where in the previous few years, it's been closer to 1 every 7. I would expect the opposite--people giving Albert the Bonds treatment until Rolen goes through a prolonged mashing period. I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg comes first here (do guys start getting walked because the rest of the team finds its power stroke, or do we start scoring and hitting for power because we're looking at more pitches). However, I just wish we had a little more discipline and could tire pitchers earlier and have more people on base to play small ball when necessary, or any ball, really, at all.

Maybe just a naive sentiment, but can't Hal just universally decree to work counts deeper? Just seems to me that everyone is very jumpy, and that, save Chris Duncan (whose plate discipline has been a delight to watch, IMO--it just feels like he works every count 3-2), everyone is up for their at bat looking to hit the first pitch.

Anyway, just curious if anyone else wanted to develop this discussion/saw the same thing. Also, thanks to all who make this site possible, it's one of my favorites.

by BrummerFanInStChuck on May 3, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here is a photo of Eckstein tagging out

Hart. Pretty obvious:

http://images.sportsline.com/u/ap/photos/WIDH104050215_1024x768.jpg

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 3, 2007 1:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

solid

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 3, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

was cuzzi the ump?

Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 3, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

great picture

It's tough to be too angry, since even if the call had been made correctly we still would have lost the game due to our complete lack of offense, but at least it would have kept us from looking quite so much like little leaguers (and maybe saved us from another Bill Hall interview somewhere down the line).

Still, it seems like almost every game there is a terrible call made against us. It's getting really old, and I feel whiny to even mention it, but it's so frigging consistent- I can't even think of a single play like this that has gone our way. At some point that has to change, right?

Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 3, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lboros

i think the decision to limit the topics today is a very good one, i have personally not been very happy with the post's coverage of this, and while i am not saying they should be censored, it just seems to me they were jumping out there with stuff that maybe could have waited a bit, as far as nationally, everything i have heard said was quoted from the post, so it isnt as if the national news was running with it

as far as this team, i just cant seem to care about these games, yesterday when speez and bennett were up with the bases loaded, normally i would be riveted, but yesterday, i just didnt care, i didnt even get excited when bennett hit the ball, even though for a sec it looked gone

i am sure that at some point i will care again, and i dont want people to think i am this way because of the losing, it is simply as lboros said the other day, we watch this to escape reality, and when reality creeps in as it did with hancock, and previously kile and buck, it just doesnt seem right to get excited about this game for a while

as far as the memorial today, i hope the players are able to get a little closure, not that any of their feelings will go away, but in my personal life, once a day like today is over, the healing can begin

if somehow this team is able to rally and play better baseball, great, but if not, that is ok too, they are in my mind a middling team at best, and after this, if they perform at that middling point or worse, they will get a pass from me

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on May 3, 2007 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

When was the last time

Hal McRae took an at bat? Fact is, our lineup lacks punch and is largely ineffective.

Its time to bring up Ryan Ludwick. The guy has had a great start down in Memphis. He can potentially add the pop that this lineup is missing. He could also add an ingrediant that this team is severely lacking, hunger. The guy has something to prove. He's had some monster seasons in the minors and you'd think that he'd be itching to get another legit chance in the majors.

If called up, LaRussa could use a modified platoon between him, Edmonds and Encarnacion once he returns. Having Encarnacion play CF and Ludwick play in RF against lefites. At this point I would think that it would be worth a shot. Especially since Edmonds' better days appear to be behind him.

I just hope the resigning of Edmonds doesn't come back to bite the team in the butt. And his contract is used as an excuse as to why they can't afford to pursue quality free agents.

by MarTeezy on May 3, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Today...

My thoughts and prayers are with the Hancock family, the Cardinals, and any other Cardinals fans that are mourning his loss.

Re Edmonds, it would sadden me to see him go like this. I remember the days when he and Big Mac combined for over 80 home runs. I miss those days.

I think we probably should move Edmonds to the 2 spot and Duncan to the 5 spot. If TLR is going to shake up the lineup, that may be the way to do it.

Edmonds probably became my fav player when Mac retired. Now the MV4 plus Duncan are my fav players.

In the meantime, I hope that our offense starts producing.

In 2002, we won the division without our staff ace. Let's win it again this year for Josh.

While I want to give the team a free pass for this week, I just can't.

They've played poorly all year. Would it be the same with a healthy Juan, I have no clue.

Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 3, 2007 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Also a longtime reader...

... and first time commenter. But I'm a huge JEd fan so I thought I'd at least chime in. (So yes I'm biased towards Jim)

I've got hope that Jimmy will come back around. Obviously with his age and the two surgeries it's only a glimmer of hope but hope nonetheless.

Why?

Besides, the obvious factors, he's had a relatively slow start the past 3 years now and he didn't get much of a spring training at all this year. In fact, most of April was his spring training.

He's a proud ballplayer and I can pretty much guarantee that he knows he's not getting the job done and feels like crap about it. He wants to retire a Cardinal yes, but he doesn't want to go out like this. Like Zubin said above, he's going to do whatever it takes to bust his ass and get back in shape and if not, he may hang them up early.

Yes his swing is off, his power is diminishing and he doesn't have the hustle he once had, but there are signs of life. He's hit some balls pretty hard lately, (although to the opposite field) and can still take a walk (even though he has twice as many strikeouts).

If can goes .250 w/ 18 Hr's and 60 RBI's and an OBP of about .350 for the season, I'm a firm believer that his defense and leadership will make up for his lack of offensive production.

It's not looking so good right now, but if his body can get healthy again, he'll get there. It doesn't help that the whole team is in a funk right now and there's nobody hitting behind him.

Jimmy-woo-woo is not the only problem on this team right now, although I will conceded that he is a one of the larger ones.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on May 3, 2007 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I've been meaning to ask....

should we just sit J Ed for a week or 2?

I guess we'd have to bring someone up if we do that, and that may not be in the cards.

Man this Instant Breakfast wrist issue is affecting a lot of outfield stuff.

by sdrone on May 3, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

see signature

Call up Ankiel!!

by jeff abs on May 3, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jimmy Baseball

Agreed. I want to see him retire a Cardinal, but not like this. Hopefully he can pull himself together, but if not, I don't think the team is "toast". Wishful thinking on my part? Maybe.

by cardsgirl95 on May 3, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There seem to be a lot of rookie commenters

nice to see some young blood around the ol' blog. Welcome.

by effin fisk on May 3, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

...I've been reading all the Cards blogs for few years now . I actually posted a picture on your Playoff beard site last year.

Everyone around here seems to be so damned knowledgeable about the game, I was a bit intimidated to post anything actually. I'm not really a stat guy although I've been a die-hard Cards fan since I was born (except in the dark years in the 90's when I was a teenager). I am finally getting around to reading Moneyball though so that's a start.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on May 3, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

great to see you

and please don't be intimidated, most people who post here are drunk and/or making it up as they go along. that goes double for statheads.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 3, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know anything

I just like watching baseball and I don't like to shave.

by effin fisk on May 3, 2007 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

as much as we all want change

I don't see alot coming. I don't see them giving up on vets this early in the season even if they are batting 200. So guys either need to get it right or we will be saying "promote so and so" until june or later.

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

How pathetic am I?

I just q-ed up Game 2 of the 2006 NCLS and have it streaming on my cpu. Clinging to the past, like a warm, comforting blanket -

"oh, 2006 playoffs, you make me forget the troubles of today....soooo soothing...thank you for making me remember the happy times", he says while shaking back and forth in the fetal position.

by cardsfaninmass on May 3, 2007 3:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Joe Buck....

...just said, "It's your duty, Judy" Referencing those HILARIOUS Tommy Lasorda commercials.

Ohhhhhh....Good times!

by cardsfaninmass on May 3, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You have this saved to a file?

I'm jealous.

by sdrone on May 3, 2007 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No...

...it's available 'on demand' on mlb.com (if you have a subscription!)

by cardsfaninmass on May 3, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Media

I don't get too aggrivated much by them, but since last season I have become more discontent with the STL media. Some of the stuff they print at times seems harsh. these are just my opinions.

I stopped going to the STLtoday threads cause they were way to neg, i think some not all of it has to do with Bernie at least in his forum...sometimes he would rant like a little kid on these guys epsecially AP.

I really didnt like his Article today. I get what he's saying about teams owning responsibility. However is it appropriate to list all those names today? why not do a great piece on Josh? It's nto like the alchol angle is being overlooked.

Also really Is a footbal team responsible for a player they cut getting hammered and then getting hurt in a car accident? Perhaps its todays society. Don't blame the individual blame thsoe he worked for, they should have been aware of this or that. In some cases probably in all probably not.

It is the medias job to give us the scoopand news etc, but should the families like those in the VT tragety really ahve to ask NBC tostop playing the vid over and over just days after the massacre?

Just my opinion kind of in response to someonewho talked about STLmedia earlier then i went and read Bernie.

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hancock Memorial Service

streaming video:

http://media.myfoxstl.com/live

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 3, 2007 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

thanks

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not seeing Albert

I wonder where he is.

Very touching service.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 3, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nevermind

he's next to Yadi

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 3, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

strauss

his article was pretty good...http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/F1084DB53EC6C95A862572D0000E434D ?OpenDocument

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

nice the pastor

just changed scripture to say wings like cardinals

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, Hardcore Legend

Thanks for the link to the feed of the memorial service. Randy Flores had some great stories about the panks the bullpenners would pull on "new guys". Also, Josh's sister, Katie, made a great quote (don't remember the source), "God gives us memories so that we can have roses in December." Very moving service.

by cardsgirl95 on May 3, 2007 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

memorial, edmonds, and what not

First off, Larry - excellent post today, sir. I agree with you and with the other posters - it's not all a wash just yet.

Watching the memorial service for Josh - very touching and nice - a good sendoff. Perhaps this is what they need. Perhaps now with the final goodbyes (so-to-speak), they'll regain some focus, get some of that drive back, etc. In Edmonds case, I'm sure the loss has him thinking about DK... not saying that's the excuse, but I'm sure it plays at least a small role. Like you said Larry, next week they just might start looking hopeful again.

As for Edmonds, the offense (or lack thereof) and the lineup... I don't think it's SO terrible. Problematic, yes, but not completely hosed, as some might say. Edmonds is aging. That's a fact. Does he HAVE to drive the ball to right field? Couldn't he use his veteren knowledge to his advantage and become a solid RBI guy - Spraying the ball to all fields, going the opposite way more often, getting singles and doubles and driving in runs? Duncan is there, waiting in the wings to take his place as the "power." If you moved Duncan to the 4-spot, based on his much improved patience at the plate, you'd get some youth and offense back in the heart of the order. Then move Edmonds down to the 6-hole - make him your RBI guy - not so much raw power, just getting base hits to get those guys on base in. I don't have the offical numbers or stats on his "clutch" performances of past... maybe I just like the look of a 3-4-5-6 of Pujols, Duncan, Rolen, Edmonds... Or bat him 2nd - let him see some better pitches batting in front of Pujols. Either way, moving Duncan down might help spark some of that drive into coming back.

Just my two cents.

by SmashedAtoms on May 3, 2007 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

oops...

"...it's not all a wash just yet."

Meant to add to this before posting - If we're still in last place (let's say 10 games or so behind) by the All-Star Break - then I'm officially concerned.

by SmashedAtoms on May 3, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

JEd

Jimmy would become an "RBI guy" in a heartbeat - if he only could. I don't think, based on what we've seen, he has much choice in the matter. He's having a damn hard time making any significant contact, much less adjusting his stroke so that he's able to "spray the ball to all fields" ... When he's going good, fans in both right and left field bleachers are liable to catch a souvenir.

I think he'd be the first to tell you that.

by Urban Pawnee on May 3, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well....

I guess I got a little over-zealous in my ideas.... really all I was going for was that, when you've got men on base, a single or double can score a run just as well as a home run - Jimmy's power doesn't have to completely return, base hits are ok, too.

You are correct though, and I agree: the key is to make decent contact first.

by SmashedAtoms on May 3, 2007 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

at this point ...

I think that if Jim knew how to bunt for a hit, he'd do it.

by Urban Pawnee on May 3, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Back in his prime,

one of Jimmy's main advantages was his ability to spray the ball to all fields... with power. Perhaps he'll find his stride again, he is about the streakiest player in the majors. Maybe not. Let's hope he does.

by Valatan on May 3, 2007 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My $0.02

It is too early to write any club off- especially in this division. Then again, I wouldn't bet that the Cards can go the 18 or so games above .500 that they will need to stay competitive.
J'Ed may be the cog that decides if we finish above or below .500, but quite frankly every position player save Dunc, SoTag and possibly Yadi has under-performed.

by Zubin on May 3, 2007 4:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

feels wierd to talk about baseball

On a day like today. In case you missed it, the post dispatch has a really good slide show of Josh Hancock in action. It can be found here: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/cards . After clicking the link or copying and pasting, scroll down to the "Josh Hancock" section in the middle of the page and click the link that says "Photos: Josh Hancock Memorial" then a flash window will pop-up with the slide show. Since it's a flash window I can't post a hard link to it, sorry. Anyway, make sure you have your in-browser pop-up blocking system disabled from the PD website so you can view them.

RIP: Jack Buck, DK57 & JH32

by gibbons on May 3, 2007 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Direct Link

For those interested, that slideshow is here.

by liam on May 3, 2007 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thanks

RIP: Jack Buck, DK57 & JH32

by gibbons on May 3, 2007 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't really feel like talking baseball

just wanted again to send out my thought and prayers to all the Hancock family and the Cardinal family. today was a gut renching, and emotionaly draining day. GOD bless you all. may Josh rest in peace.

I think after today the season starts over for the Cards. they just have to get through today.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 3, 2007 5:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ryan Ludwick didn't play today in Memphis

just a regular day off or is he on a bus to Busch III?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 3, 2007 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe?

Could the Yankee's and their need for starting pitching be a viable trade partner? (Example Abreu and prospect for Wainwright?) It doesn't seem likely, but the Yankee's are desperate and always want a contender, so this might be feasible. Thoughts?

Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on May 3, 2007 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Abreu is terrible right now

he's hitting under .100 for the last two or three weeks i believe. I know that won't last, but it seems like he's changed since that stint in the HR derby a while back. Maybe it's just me. At least he can draw a walk and occasionally steal a base.

by effin fisk on May 3, 2007 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not necessarily

saying I want Abreu. All I'm saying is do we have something to give? (Here's another idea. Rolen and Reyes for A-ROD.) I can't help but think that Mulder can replace Reyes or Wainwright in the rotation. (The trick is to guess which of the two is going to be worse over time.) Mulder-bashing commence!

Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on May 3, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Yankees would be stupid to trade ARod

he's going to get paid and they can offer him the most money.

He is the team's best hitter, even with FA coming it isn't like Andruw Jones in Atlanta where they have literally no shot of resigning him.

The Cardinals 'midseason' pick-ups in years past were to make a contending team a 'winner'. This team isn't contending right now. If the Cardinals made a trade, it'd have to be for someone who isn't a soon-to-be FA or else they are just dumping prospects/known quantities for no reason.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 3, 2007 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

the only way something like that would make sense would be if it were a rolen-type deal, where they were pretty sure they were going to bring him in and then sign him long-term. not sure any team could do that with arod.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 3, 2007 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

um, p.s., remember that time

when philadelphia couldn't WAIT to get rid of rolen because they thought he was a clubhouse cancer and possibly a sissy who couldn't play through pain?

good times.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 3, 2007 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

really feel the need to throw this in

Trading Wainwright would be absolutely the dumbest thing this team could do. I personally am following the Bill Simmons logic of after a WS title, this team gets a 5-year pass. Besides, we all realized '07 might be a tough year.

I'm saying it might be tough to make the playoffs this year, especially if the Brewers keep playing the way they do. But I think that Jock doesn't need to do anything drastic (i.e. trading Wainwright, or Reyes, honestly). When I look at Wainwright, I see the next Chris Carpenter. Good, clean kid, got great stuff. He just needs to learn how to be a starter in the bigs. Give him (and Reyes!) some time.

Just watch. Suffer through this year, stick with Wainwright and Reyes, get them some seasoning and maybe trade some of the bullpen for some younger position players, as well as give Ludwick and Ankiel some more time in Memphis, this will be a TOUGH team in '08.

by Jhusk on May 3, 2007 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really

I'm not saying do anything. I just want to "escape reality" for a second and talk about baseball. During the offseason, we heard trade Rolen for Ervin Santana. I don't understand how we can't get a big name for Reyes or Wainwright. Isn't it essentially the same thing? Santana is a cheap young pitcher with plenty of upside but not great in the ERA dept last year. The Yankees have a need, is there a deal or no deal?

Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on May 3, 2007 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trades

no way would I...I..trade AW, and I don't see anyone making a BIG move that involves rolen...he'd have to produce this year to be involved in any trade.

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mather Who?

Anybody have any insight or scouting report on Mather at AA? Put up a heck of a month in April. I guess he is a little old for that league, but not too bad:

"Mather, 24, ripped 10 home runs in April, batting .324 with a .797 slugging percentage at Double-A Springfield"

by OCCardsFan on May 3, 2007 7:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

pay my respects

rest in peace, josh hancock.

by sjoshi on May 3, 2007 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

ESPN

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2859277

says Jimmy got them all back loaded up on buses afterwards..Only Flores Spoke this team is hurting real bad..

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2007 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Tony and veterans

It's all fine and good to say "Sit Edmonds" or
call up "Rookie X" to replace So. But the truth seems to be that Toni has an unnatural man love for his veteran guys and will play them all the way to the bank or bankruptcy.

I state my case with one name: Jeff Fassero

by saladdin69 on May 3, 2007 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My case

Adam Wainwright - Game 7 NLCS

Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on May 3, 2007 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Forget?

He stayed with Iffy until his hip snapped like my Grandmother's. Remember the collapse that almost cost the Division?

If Iffy would never have spoken up and had surgery who do you think would have been pitching to Beltran?

Do you really think if Iffy had been on the roster Adam would have seen a save situation?

Even Ray Lankford got atbats in '04.

by saladdin69 on May 3, 2007 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

you need to look at the roster that surrounded Jeff Fassero. It's not like Tony had a bunch of options. WHo would he call up from Memphis? Ankiel? I mean when you have a rotation with the name Andy Benes(02) in it or Garret Stephenson(03), Jeff Fassero at least gave TOny the option of starting or relieving.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/fasseje01.php

In regards to Lankford, you can't really say he was that bad as a bench player in 04.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lankfra01.php

Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on May 3, 2007 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care

that the team is not good now or in the near future. Jimmy is going to retire a Bird which he should. In a few years Albert will be playing for the Secret Weapon (if he can stomach not playing for Tony). We are the champions more times than everyone but the Yankees (for now). I actually am looking forward to a year where we aren't in the mix because its a bit relaxing. I love the Birds on the Bat, but I think that letting a year slide without being competitive might be good for the team. Commence trashing me now.

Jimmy steps in to lead off the bottom half of the inning... with nobody on base... It could happen... just not tonight.

by Hollywood15 on May 4, 2007 3:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs