Reyes down

by Bowen on May 27, 2007 1:20 PM EDT Comment 40 comments

I just heard this on the radio and it's not on the Card's website or on here anywhere besides the game thread yet so I'll let this fly. Anthony Reyes has been optioned to Memphis and Troy Cate has been called up. The strangest part is that Cate will be put into the bullpen and Wellemeyer will be starting on Wednesday night in what would've been Reyes spot.

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I wonder how long it will be before we see

Anthony Reyes again. If his 8 game losing streak was a strain on his mental accumen, imagine what getting demoted from a hodge-podged rotation will do.

I wouldn't be suprised if this isn't the last we see if one Anthony Reyes.

Wellemeyer is being discussed as going into the rotation. Please spare us.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on May 27, 2007 1:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

cats and dogs living together

I said the other day in Larry's thread on Welle not to hand him a setup job. And they didn't. . .

Instead, they hand him a freaking rotation spot.

by azruavatar on May 27, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

tragically Reyes has the best WHIP

and a comparable ERA to rotation mates Wainwright and Wells.

by azruavatar on May 27, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

FIP

Reyes: 4.32
Wells: 4.37
Wainwright 4.84

by azruavatar on May 27, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

bizarre move

Obviously, the brain trust has lost faith in Anthony Reyes. For the kid's sake, I hope we trade him for a bat. Wellemeyer has looked stellar in the pen since he arrived in STL (but was previously released by KC of all teams). Why not let Wellemeyer settle into his roll in the STL pen instead of asking him to do start, which he has never done in the big leagues? Bizarre or desperate, take your pic.

by jjray on May 27, 2007 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

We are just trying to fill our entire rotation with guys from the pen. Loop, WW, Thompson, now Wellemayer. Watch out Kip Wells, Russ Springer may be gunning for your job!

by El Hombre on May 27, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Izzy began his career as a starter...

by Valatan on May 27, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

which

radio station did you hear this on?

the cubs spent HOW much to be able to lose again?

by dunc4life on May 27, 2007 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

sorry

many many hours too late I will report that I heard it on KFNS 590 The Fan.

Now the story of a wealthy family who lost everything, and the one son who had no choice but to keep them all together...it's Arrested Development.

by Bowen on May 28, 2007 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

on cardinals website!!

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070527&content_id=1988974&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

god, why don't they just go ahead and concede this season? I don't see why they don't try Franklin in the rotation, and have springer be setup!

bring in Torii hunter!!

by dunc4life on May 27, 2007 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I just don't get this at all

A couple of days ago I got into a pretty good discussion about LaRussa's post-game comments on Reyes' start. Others felt that LaRussa sugar-coated Reyes' start too much and I made the point that I thought that LaRussa was probably concerned about Reyes' confidence and there was no need to run him down in the press.

So then why is he sent down? Why would LaRussa pull any punches if they're simply going to send him down? Could they have sent him down to avoid getting lit up in Colorado this week -- fly ball pitcher, thin air, etc.? Why wouldn't Tony just come out and say "He really needs to follow the game plan" or whatever? This is really a bizarre move unless it is to try and avoid Coors Field. Does he have anything else to learn at AAA?

by chuckb on May 27, 2007 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

TLR's radio interview

Even in his interview with Mike Shannon (on KTRS before the game), TLR was totally complimentary of Reyes and talked about how he was a better pitcher than the record showed. So, maybe they do think it's a confidence problem and he needs to return to AAA to get it back.

by cardsgirlinAR on May 27, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your theory

That they're protecting Reyes from Coors field may have some merit, and carrying three lefties in the bullpen to handle four games of Helton, Hawpe, and Finley might be a smart move, given how much work TJ and Flores have gotten lately.

by liam on May 27, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It

doesn't sound like this was LaRussa's decision at all . . .

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 27, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tony

TLR is the master of misdirection / propaganda. The fact that he is heeping praise on Reyes after sending him down pretty much assures that Tony was the one who stabbed the kid.

by jjray on May 27, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

On StlCardinals.com now

Reyes optioned; Cate recalled

I saw this disturbingly harsh comment from Bernie Micklasz last night:

If there was an IQ test for pitching acumen -- [Anthony Reyes] would flunk it.
He makes Marquis look like a Mensa member.
--B

Agreeing with the discussion here last night, I don't see that he's got much to learn at AAA and Wellemeyer (as good as he's looked in the bullpen) probably isn't going to be winning the games the offense scores a run or two either.

by liam on May 27, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He got sent down to AAA

so that he could work on his knuckleball.

Seriously, I don't understand this. Unless they are thinking about converting him into a bullpen guy or something.

by Valatan on May 27, 2007 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Trade him

they're wasting his potential. It kills me to see it.

by TICY on May 27, 2007 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

trade him for a SS prospect!

If there's a baseball heaven, Albert Pujols is God.

by kyle man on May 27, 2007 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

there's some logic in this

he still has value, lots of it. Hawksworth should be ready next year, along w/ Carp, Mulder, Wainer and Looper. We need a SS badly. We should be able to get a good, young SS for him.

by chuckb on May 27, 2007 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ryan church

The Nationals desperately need starting pitching. They have treated Ryan Church very similarly to A. Reyes in the past. Why not swap players? Make Church our everyday right fielder. If A. Reyes had been dealt during the offseason, we could have gotten a load for him but his value is now depressed. If it takes more than Reyes, flip a reliever into the mix.

by jjray on May 27, 2007 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

enc's doing okay

and he's like 28 or 29 and left handed, 4 lh batters in the lineup, no thanks. good idea but we need a SS prospect

If there's a baseball heaven, Albert Pujols is God.

by kyle man on May 28, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep!

I want that guy from Colorado. not Tulwutski the other guy.....

If there's a baseball heaven, Albert Pujols is God.

by kyle man on May 27, 2007 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

not barmes either

brandon wood can play SS too right:)

If there's a baseball heaven, Albert Pujols is God.

by kyle man on May 27, 2007 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brandon Wood isn't on the Rockies

Nor does he play shortstop, although he might have the ability to do so. He's a third base prospect for the Angels.

Sparks of Dementia Still Demented.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on May 27, 2007 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wood was a ss

Now he is playing third. However the angels also have another top SS prospect Erick Aybar. Supposedly he is a high average, low power type guy. However the Angels don't like to trade away any prospects.

by OCCardsFan on May 28, 2007 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know he's on the Angels

I just threw him into the mix. should have clarified that, my bad.

If there's a baseball heaven, Albert Pujols is God.

by kyle man on May 28, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

"The Nationals desperately need starting pitching."

Then why would they trade for Reyes?

by cardsrul on May 27, 2007 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

reyes

>>"The Nationals desperately need starting pitching."

Then why would they trade for Reyes?<<

Come again? He's cheap with a ton of talent. The Nationals have Jason Simontacchi in their rotation. A. Reyes's got a plus fastball with a plus changeup and won a WS game at such a young age. Look at his WHIP. Look at his AAA stats. A. Reyes is a bundle of potential that D. Duncan has not been able to unlock (some may say that D. Duncan has sabotaged Reyes). I personally believe a change of scenery will do wonders for Anthony. There will be bidders if A. Reyes is put on the market. Look what Chicago paid for Jason Marquis after he lost 16 games last season ($21M over 3 years). Reyes won't land us a proven big leaguer but should get us an equivalent hitting prospect who is ML ready.

by jjray on May 28, 2007 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

who in the nat org

fits that bill?

Future Redbirds

by erik on May 28, 2007 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

who

said he's cheap?

I'm sure we wouldn't give him up for nothing.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 28, 2007 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

TRADE REYES for felipe lopez

we could put him at short and sign him for a few years or so. but he's also like 31

If there's a baseball heaven, Albert Pujols is God.

by kyle man on May 28, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know we here on VEB defend Reyes quite a bit

but it is hard to defend a young guy with options from getting sent down when he has an 0-8 record and a 6.00 ERA+, who can't complete 6 innings if it was his one mission on this earth.

If he was 32 and a FA doing this, we'd be clamoring for him to be DFA'd.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on May 27, 2007 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The point is

he's not 32. He's a developing pitcher who got replaced in the rotation by a reliever who was released by Kansas City.

by TICY on May 27, 2007 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reyes isn't a kid

he's a 25 year old pitcher who is struggling epically.

If you leave Reyes in the rotation, he's got a VERY real chance of losing 20+ games. Take him out for a turn or two and at the very least, you reduce the chances of that.

Wellemeyer is only 28. It's not like he is some old, tired mop up arm. If he can bring the heat like he has shown he can, what is to say that Duncan can't teach him to be the next Braden Looper?

If Reyes had the arm that Wellemeyer does, they'd never ask him to throw the 2-seamer so much.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on May 28, 2007 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This just freaking baffles me

Yes. In the relief role Wellemeyer throws hard. But when he gets to try to throw 6+ innings you think he'll still be throwing 97? When that MPH drops to the low 90s, will they teach him a 2 seamer? I've seen nothing in his arsenal that even comes close to Reyes' change.

I think Reyes every bit has the arm that Wellemeyer has. We've all seen, or at the very least heard accounts, of him hitting 95.

by TICY on May 28, 2007 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not for awhile

if Wellemeyer can throw in the 97-95 mph range for the first 2 or 3 innings, maybe he can then throw bad curveballs and iffy sliders for 2 innings anytime someone gets on. That's what Reyes does, without the 95mph fastball to start the game.

In all seriousness though, how effective has Reyes changeup been this year?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on May 28, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kinda

only once Reyes gets out of the first 2-3 innings, he's usually effective. And I think the change has been effective this year; he's made a lot of good hitters look foolish. Maybe I'm making excuses, but I feel like his mechanics are out of whack from the switch to the 2 seamer, and he is having trouble getting the change over.

Remember the playoffs when they had him throw strictly out of the stretch because he was tipping the change? IIRC he almost exclusively threw the fastball the rest of the game. Maybe the 2 seamer in conjunction with the stretch makes it hard for him to get the change over.

by TICY on May 28, 2007 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bring on Luhnow.

This move combined with the consistant over-valuing of players of the Miles/Wilson/Encarnacion ilk makes me think I'm ok with WJ moving on. I seriously doubt a sabr-minded GM would handle Reyes this way...or JRod for that matter.

I'm ready for change.

I'm so mad right now I'm going to take a 2 week hiatus from this team.

by RedbirdRay on May 28, 2007 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Can this be seen as a positive?

Comparing Reyes' demotion for poor performance this year, versus Marquis' lack of demotion for poor performance last year:

After 7 games last year, Marquis had an equally poor 6.00 ERA, and a well-earned record of 3-4 (he pitched pretty well in the three wins, but had four consecutive terrible losses). Marquis stayed in the rotation come hell or high water, until the stakes got high enough that TLR couldn't bear to run him out there any more - in the NLCS.

To some extent I believe it's because the Cardinals had essentially given up on Marquis - he was deemed to be "unfixable" - but lacking in better options (due to a lack of faith in Reyes, and then Mulder's injury) we were stuck with him. The team was never capable of generating a sustained pattern of success from him, but he was what he was.

By comparison, the Cardinals have generated some level of sustained success from Reyes, albeit in triple-A. There may be sentiment within the organization that he is "fixable" - even if that opinion is not held by Duncan and La Russa. It makes sense on this level to return him to the environment in which the team has gotten some sustained success from him, and see if we can do it again.

However...

Another difference between Marquis and Reyes - Marquis did throw well in nearly 50% of his starts. (His game scores were above 50 in 16 of 33 starts, and above 60 in 9 of 33). His team was in a pennant race, and he did give his team a good chance of winning nearly half the time.

Reyes brought his game score above 50 in only 3 of 9 starts, and above 60 only once. It could be argued that he only deserved to win one of his starts this season, May 7 vs Colorado. His team is, realistically, not in a pennant race and would seem to have little to lose in trotting him out there to figure it out against major league hitters... and they still banished him.

It could be read that Duncan and La Russa see Reyes as not only unfixable, but unreliable, where at the very least they could rely on Marquis to take the mound and go six innings plus in every start, even if they had no hope of getting consistent results from him.

The glass is half full of theories, half empty of answers.

by taiko on May 28, 2007 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs