The team's family.

by Valatan on May 23, 2007 10:49 AM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News

Well, it's nice seeing the offense and the defense play decent baseball at the same time for once, even if it is against the pirates. Even Rolen had something to build off of last night--a 2/3 performance with an RBI.

But that doesn't matter, at least for a little bit. This team requires a different type of fandom than we've been used to during most of the Cardinals' run during the post-McGwire years. It requires a different sort of "rooting for the home team."

I was born in 1980. This means that I was seven for the Cardinals-Twins series. This also means that my earliest memories of the St. Louis Cardinals consist of a dimly remembered golden age followed by years of struggling. The thing to sustain my interest through those dark ages was more familiarity than it was an actual expectation of victory. It was seeing Bernard Gilkey, Ray Lankford, and Ozzie every day, and wanting them to succeed, even if the team wasn't quiiite built for them to contend with the big boys.

Baseball is truly built around being less fickle than the other major sports. There are over a hundred players on a NFL roster-you only stand out if you are a superstar, and if you are not, then then fans are begging to get you outta there for someone better. Hockey can be so dominated by goalies that a lot of the process of seeing the offensive players try to succeed is tucked away behind the goalie's struggles (I once had a hockey fan friend of mine ask me how many no hitters an excellent pitcher could expect to throw in a year). Both face the problem that the players face, and thus a lot of the emotion and struggles facing them, is hidden underneath a helmet. The NBA is so beset with troubles and a regular season that is almost completely irrelevant that I won't even bother to try to list them here. All three are beset with a tendency to try to make the game a "big event" or a "spectacular struggle" filled with testosterone and obnoxious theme music.

Baseball isn't like that. Baseball is a lazy party at your best friends house after work. You've done it quite a bit, but you realize that it's a lot more fun than the enormous bash at the frat house, or that 'exclusive' party downtown where you are going to be paying $10 for a martini that you don't even like that much.

Baseball is about familiarity with the roster--a recognition of a players' batting stance, route to the ball, pitching mechanics, etc. It's about cheering for the guys and enjoying the game as much as it's about wanting your team to win at all costs. I think this might be the origin of why the steroids scandal means so much more to baseball than it does to the NFL, where, after all, it is a lot more obvious how steroids could help you out. The culture of NFL fandom doesn't focus as much on tradition and continuity as MLB fandom does.

So, my suggestion for the rest of this season, at least until the team actually gets back into contention--enjoy the individual stories--Scott's struggles to get back to respectability, Reyes' and wagonmaker's efforts to become the solid #2 starters we know that they can be. And we can see what happens as Albert struggles to be the leader of a middle-of-the-pack team, rather than the MVP on one of the best teams in the league. These stories, for me, will probably have a lot more to do with what I remember about the team 30 years from now than the won-loss records of the individual teams, even from the La Russa years.

And if they find a way to win, it makes it all that much more exciting, in the end.

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Comments

well said

Well said, Valatan. I was born in 1977 and remember both good and the bad run. We've been spoiled with the great run of the last 6-7 years. I still want to win every game badly and the loses don't hurt any less. But I'd take our organization over most and there are many story lines to follow and appreciate (especially all the young talent...as you said).

by ChadEliot on May 23, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions

well said

My memories of the Cardinals go back much farther, but I appreciate your perspective. I remember listening to the Cards on the radio with my father, including Bob Gibson's no-hitter
(tension until the last pitch, when he got Willie Stargell on a slider). Knowing the roster, and tracking individual successes, is part of baseball fandom.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the team playing with spirit and confidence, and if that takes a roster change or two, that would be OK with me.

by madridbend on May 23, 2007 11:05 AM EDT reply actions

Lost in the Rolen struggles is

that he is playing Gold Glove defense. He has yet to commit an error. Unless his glove completely betrays him from here on out, he's got an 8th Gold Glove all but locked up.

We aren't very good.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2007 11:12 AM EDT reply actions

He's committed at least 2

that should have been errors, but got the "Gold Glove" benefit of the doubt I guess. Poor Anthony Reyes.

by RedbirdRay on May 23, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions

When?

What plays?

We aren't very good.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

The thing that drives me nuts about Rolen

is that he's contributed all of the "intangibles" that Eckstein supposedly does, complete with the scrappiness, and with a couple of MVP caliber seasons to boot, yet he somehow gets about half of the press that Eck does.

by Valatan on May 23, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Find me another Cardinals player

willing to sacrafice his body to turn a misplayed single into a double? The guy has had his shoulders surgically repaired twice, can't hit worth a lick right now but certainly doesn't look to be collecting his $12m not trying.

We aren't very good.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds leadership

I couldn't agree more. That's why this is such an enjoyable site compared to most sport web pages. One thing I'd add is watching how they relate to one another during this time of struggle. I was really struck by Strauss' assessment of Edmonds influence over Wainwright's pitching last night--he basically called it transformative.

STRAUSS: "After center fielder Jim Edmonds approached [Wainwright] between the second and third innings to say his delivery had become forced and rushed, Wainwright concentrated on slowing his mechanics. The effects were as dramatic as the pitch that struck out Pirates first baseman Adam LaRoche looking to end the fourth inning with the bases loaded."

I recall a similar account of how Edmond's helped Schumaker between innings earlier in the season that led him to change his stance and timing at the plate. Afte that talk, Schumaker had a milti-hit game and led the Card's to victory.

So to your list of players I want to add the often unseen, and almost 'managerial', contributions of Jimmy ballgame.

by nycardfan on May 23, 2007 11:16 AM EDT reply actions

"intangibles"

I've been seeing a lot of little tidbits about Jimmy's leadership contributions and helpful hints to other players lately. It's nice, because it makes me more comfortable with the fact that we extended his contract. Even if his age continues to show offensively, and he doesn't quite put up All-Star numbers, he's at least contributing elsewhere.

by john vb on May 23, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions

Jimmy Intangibles

He also seems to be really sharp at picking up when an opposing pitcher is tipping his pitches. I remember he and Larry Walker on the top step, staring at the pitcher each AB the last two years. Thought it was excellent leadership. Showing the young guys how to prepare for your next at-bat.

by liam on May 23, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions

when hes gone

im really gonna miss jim, they call him flashy, but i see a guy who has given us some of the best catches ive seen in my 34 years
between he and rolen we have been extremely spoiled in this city and albert is on par with them, he and yadi make watching this team fun because theyre so aggressive on defense....
bad team or not theres a lot to watch here

and as much as i usually trash the guy
how about Izzy's comeback....its been a great story as well

RESIGN JIMMY BALLGAME....HE SHOULD RETIRE A REDBIRD!

by benstl on May 24, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions

nice

No matter what the outcome of a game you can always find something positive. It's what makes baseball the perfect sport.

http://whiteyball.wordpress.com

by whiteyball on May 23, 2007 11:17 AM EDT reply actions

i'd amend that to "interesting"

it might not always be "positive," but i can always find something interesting --- something i can relate to. watching these guys struggle to get the most out of their ability, watching them fight for opportunities to succeed --- and then to capitalize on the opportunity when it comes --- in a sense, isn't that what we're all doing with our lives? we're not all champions (most of us aren't), but we still battle like crazy and we take the small triumphs and we believe that our efforts are worth it. when we blow an opportunity, we try to learn from our mistakes and do better when the next opportunity comes around.

2007 might be one of those "learning" seasons. if that's how it plays out, hopefully there are enough small triumphs to keep us engaged --- and enough lessons to make the team better next year.

by lboros on May 23, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions

It's true...

How many times have I seen a lopsided loss on the scoreboard for the Cards and gone straight to the box score to see how individuals fared, who got a few hits, who got some outs in the bullpen. It's no doubt been said better elsewhere many times, but part of what makes baseball great -- and perhaps, um, 'American'? -- is the way in which, in the flow of numbers, it's not really a team sport, or it's the least team-oriented sport of all the major ones. So many of the functions involved in the sport are relatively discrete -- throw the pitch, hit the ball, field the ball, throw it to a base (and made discrete-er every year by the invention of new SABR stats). No way to break down individual performances like that in basketball, hockey, or even football.

by jfs on May 23, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

Gotta disagree with the last point

Pro Football Reference does some really impressive statistical analysis of professional football and Ken Pomeroy has provided an enormous amount of analytic depth to college basketball. Football can be discretized to a sequence of plays; basketball to a sequence of possessions (either team or player possession).

But there's truth to what you're saying. Since baseball's an everyday game, we're blessed with enough data to draw fairly significant conclusions from a season's worth of data. The everyday aspect of baseball is hands-down my favorite part of the whole thing—a football fan has one game per week and if that game is lost, they have a long, miserable week ahead of them with 1/16th of the season down the drain. We only have to endure some playful razzing for one workday.

Baseball fans can't get too upset about losing a game, since the game is 1/162nd of the season. Being a baseball fan inspires a healthy attitude towards success and failure, I believe&151;it teaches us the wisdom behind the This Too Shall Pass story of many attributions.

by liam on May 23, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Duncan -

I think he is progressing incredibly fast - knowledge of the strike zone, defense, hitting against LHP, taking walks...

It gets lost in the shuffle how incredible his transformation has been.

He has started to struggle more against lefties, now at .257, but I'm still very impressed.

It's time to put this guy in an RBI slot. last year he hit 22 dingers with only 43 RBI's to show for it.

My ideal lineup against RHP would be:
Eck
JEd
APu
Dunc
Rolen
JuanE/Yadi
JuanE/Yadi
Miles
SP

I have no real solution for the lefty problem.

by silent_bob on May 23, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree

both offensively and defensively, he's obtained the "everyday" player status incredibly rapidly.

What's impressed me most is his patience at the plate - against both righties and lefties, he waits for his pitch and lets the pitcher make a mistake.

I like the lineup - For a while now, I've been wishing they'd move Duncan down to the 4 spot - let him produce with a table set for him for once.

I wish they'd just take the chance and see what he can do (i.e. more than one game). I'll add that in that game, he had great at-bats - took some deep counts, didn't change his approach at all - very commendable IMO.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on May 23, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Keep him at 2

Not because I don't want to see him in a "better" spot, but because that IS the best spot. Nothing to do with protection: he gets more AB's, a better hitter in front of Albert. Who bats 2nd if he doesn't? Tony will be having Enc or Miles or Kennedy or some other crazy idea...Big Baby Dizzle as I've come to call him is the 2nd best hitter on the team and getting the 2nd most AB's while getting on in front of the Puj is the best spot for him.

Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on May 23, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions

2nd most AB's

with only 1 of 3 guys producing behind him (at best). The AB's argument doesn't stick, especially since Tony sits him 1/3 to 1/2 of the time a lefty is facing the Cards.

Duncan is not driving guys in like he could be. His numbers tell me that he's ready to hit cleanup against RHP right now.

Against LHP - I'd keep him at the 2 hole.

by silent_bob on May 23, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds bats 2nd

in my lineup against RHP.

by silent_bob on May 23, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Great thread

All good stories and all indicative of what makes this sport great.

I live in western PA, home of many a Bucco fan and today at work we've had a blast just discussing the hidden victories and struggles our sub-par teams face. It's all good.

We sure as hell weren't going to discuss the NBA lottery.

by paCardsFan on May 23, 2007 11:29 AM EDT reply actions

Many of my friends are Bucco fans

and everytime they bellyache about their offensive struggles, I just give them this look "You're serious, right" and they realize it's all abit comical complaining to a fan of the worst offensive team in baseball.

Last night, they were upset about leaving the bases loaded 3 out of the first 4 innings. I said, 'kinda like leaving runners at 3rd base 4 of the first 5'?

Misery loves company.

Now let's sweep 'em!

We aren't very good.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions

Great Post!

Excellent post Valatan. Born in '79, so I match up pretty well with you, memory-wise. I'd say that the fuzzy 80's memories were only fuzzy in that I was younger and didn't realize the meaning behind everything - I was just a kid who loved baseball. And in that respect, fuzzy or not, there are many great memories: Ozzie doing his backflips, Vince Coleman and the Jaws theme, and I remember some rain delay where players were "body surfing" out on the tarp like a Slip n' Slide.

My Dad's cousin used to be an usher at Busch II, and Joaquin Andujar himself used to give her tickets, which she gave to my Dad, and of course, I got to go to some of them. I guess you could say that St. Louis Baseball "has been betty betty good to me" as well.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on May 23, 2007 11:46 AM EDT reply actions

stros gmen review

in case you missed it in last nights thread...

Well i did my review of oiur A's game now to our SFgame. It is a great park, and we had great seats. Got hteir early again and went to bp. I got nervous of how it would go when liek 5 min to gates opening my daughter filled her pants. Shes 9 months old and I wanted to have her with me to get some autographs. I went down byt the stros dugout. For some reason visiting teams always seem to sign more. I went and stood by some cool local guys.

We explained that we were visiting from WA but my wife grew up in h-town. Hunter pence came ove rand we got his auto. By this time my wife rejoined with the baby. one guys starts yelling o players hey their from hosuton and they got their baby would you sign? Lidge said no caus ehe had to do therapy(physical)guess he got hurt night b4. Garner came over afterseeing my daughter and signed.

All in all we got Hunter Pence,Palemro,Loretta,Phil G,and Matt Albers...I got screwed out of jason lane when i gave my spot to a girl he went to high school with i said hey just take care of me and well she didnt everyone but me got his auto.

Was a greatpark, they all taunted C Lee, and he played it up as they chanted carlos sucks...waiving his arms like saying louder louder as he laughed..very cool of him. oh and we think my duaghter may have been on FSN cause she got on camera but it nevercame on the stadium cam...

another note that lincecumguy can deal other than a few moments...but that name really

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 23, 2007 11:53 AM EDT reply actions

Good thoughts...

I don't always watch the entire game, every game, but Valatan brings up great points about how we watch OUR team for many reasons.

Last night, I found myself watching the game mostly to see how Adam pitched - finding flaws in his mechanics, etc. I was actually riveted when he found his long-lost curveball - then all the sudden started baffling hitters again.

by silent_bob on May 23, 2007 12:12 PM EDT reply actions

Thanks Valatan

I love the Party analogy - it's so true & a great way to put into words how we feel about the sport that we love!

by ArachNerd on May 23, 2007 12:29 PM EDT reply actions

Great work, V

While I dimly recall the hoopla surrounding the '67 WS (I was seven), I really came of age as a Bird fan in the 70's, the dreaded 70's when the Birds were awful, Busch 2 could be so empty it was comical, and everybody knew there was gonna be no postseason fun for quite awhile. What hooked me during the team's worst modern decade? The players. Guys like Gibby and Brock, Joe Torre, Simba, Bake McBride, Reggie Smith, Ted Sizemore, Al Hrabosky, even Mex and Bob Forsch (whom most of you probably recall from the 82 WS). Those guys, and a multitude I haven't mentioned, were my heroes and made it possible to become a rabid fan even without the expectation of postseason accolades. Though many of those guys never became members of the Cardinals' "World Champions Club," they are as much a part of Cardinals' lore as their luckier colleagues, and I think of them with the same love and respect I give to the superior 80's teams. The 80's were certainly more fun, but the 70's had plenty enough star-power to hook me forever.

by rockin redbird on May 23, 2007 12:31 PM EDT reply actions

More perspective

I agree wholeheartedly agree. Rockin' Redbird and I had the privilege of falling in love with the Birds in 67 and 68 (at the age of 7)only to wait 14 years for another playoff appearance.

So, trust us, one bad year (if that's what we indeed have) is not the end of the world. I love the 82, 85, 87, 96 and recent teams but I also loved the non-champion teams of the 1970s.

And may I add..........Lynn McGlothen, Rick Wise, Reggie Cleveland, Scipio Spinks, Silvio Martinez, Bobby Bonds, Matty Alou, Jose Cruz Sr, Ken Reitz, Mike Tyson, John Denny and a thousand others.

Winning is nice but Cardinal baseball is always awesome.

by Hinkster on May 23, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions

May I add...

...a couple more names to this great thread. Heity Cruz and Pete Falcone.

I, too, grew up on the 70s Cards and was too young to realize how bad they were. I remember in '76 when they traded Reitz to the Giants (for Falcone) and installed Hector (Heity) Cruz at 3B. He was dreadful, so they brought Reitzie back the next year and moved Cruz back to the outfield.

Strange the things that lodge in a Cardinal fans' mind.

by 10worldchamps on May 23, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

My memories

Nice symmetry to my family and Cardinal baseball - I was 6/7 in the 1967/68 glory years, and my two older boys got to experience their first Cards WS victory last fall at ages 6 & 8. Cool way to begin the adventure and joy of being a Cardinal fan.

Adding to the 1970's memories above would include listening to Jack Buck with my dad in the twilight of a summer evening. I clearly remember Bob Gibson being nails just about every time out - any kind of bad streak never seemed to last too long when you had the joy of him pitching every 4 or 5 days. I think Torre must have been slower than Yadier - I remember him hitting the ball off the wall for singles. If he could have run I think he could have hit .400 and added significantly to his slugging pct. I also have a clear image of Dick Allen and how hard he hit the ball - it just seemed to explode off his bat.

by wildman on May 23, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions

and may I add

Ray Busse, Bernie Carbo, Harry/Eric Rasmussen, Jerry Mumphrey, Luis Melendez, Alan Foster, Joe Hague, Rich Folkers amd Moe Drabowsky (RIP)

by Hinkster on May 23, 2007 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions

True...

I think age does give us a bit of perspective. We survived, even enjoyed, Cardinals baseball thru the 70's as well as the '88-'96 drought. If this season does tank, to me it's a mere bump in the road. Look how the bad the '86 Birds looked sandwiched in between the '85 and '87 pennant winners. The boys will be back--if not in the second half of this season, then in '08 or '09. Sit back and enjoy seeing guys like Edmonds and Rolen--even if they are in decline, they are legends, and their influence on Cardinals' history goes way beyond one year's batting average. I'll miss them a lot when they're gone, regardless of their performance this year.

by rockin redbird on May 23, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Amen

Great thoughts, Rockin. Well said. This team won't be down long, even if it's three years before a return to the playoffs. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the ride.

by 10worldchamps on May 23, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Very well put...

I am over here in the UK and have watched a few games with a guy from England and a guy from Germany. Unfortunately, they were both low scoring losses and the other guys could not figure out why I could do this every night till 3 or 6 am. (I made sure to watch the world series last year alone so they would not ask 'So, is it better if it goes over the wall in outfield, or if it stays in?' mid way through =)
I will have to forward your article to them and maybe they'll understand a bit better. After all, they've got cricket over here and that's just as slow and one game lasts five days...

by davethebutcher on May 23, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions

Did you remind them...

that in "futbol" often times the games end 0-0?

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on May 23, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, but...

scoring aside, futbol is beautiful. Baseball on the other hand is a bunch of guys kicking dirt and spitting.

by guayzimi on May 23, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Hmmm....

While I am big fan of futbol (soccer, etc...); that's simply not true. Flopping has taken much of the beauty away from that game.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on May 23, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah...

that was said tongue in cheek.

As far as I'm concerned soccer involves the fastest 8-year-old running like hell with the ball while the other 20 kids swarm after him like a cloud of hornets... Not much beauty in that, especially when it's your runt of a kid that's getting trampled.

by guayzimi on May 23, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

The latin america influence

on soccer is great for beauty of the sport - but it will never fly in America as a spectator sport because of the diving.

Soccer players look like complete girlymen out there, wailing and crying (real or fake) over getting kicked in the freakin' shin.

And I play soccer. It's ridiculous.

by silent_bob on May 23, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions

First Post

Thanks for the wonderful website guys. I read everyday and I'm obviously more educated for it. I moved from STL to MD because of the Nav and will always be a Cardinals fan. I miss going to Busch II after skipping classes at Vianney....there is nothing like sitting in the bleachers (beer in hand of course) watching the birds play. I'm going to have to defend the soccer players here. I played on the national team....at that level, they are not trying to just kick you in the shin, they are trying to take your leg off. After a couple ankle surgeries and shins that feel like a washboard I know. Your point is well taken with the dives though...fakers!

by Section8 on May 23, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Again, I play-

But you can tell a real hack from a dive when watching it on TV.

The problem is that the overdramatic wailing and rolling on the ground is the rule, rather than the exception.

And the stretcher stuff in the World Cup - Come on...Walk off with a teammate or trainer like the rest of manhood does.

I would assume that football/hockey fans would be all over this topic right now. Most baseball fans could care less.

Comparing sports, I think that baseball players are least conditioned when you compare them to hockey/soccer/football/basketball players. Especially bullpen pitchers. But there is something to be said for "perceived toughness" and Americana. And soccer just doesn't have the respect of most of American sports fans.

by silent_bob on May 23, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

The problem is...

American sports fans (young men, basically) believe their own culturally based notions of manhood to be a universal standard to which everyone should aspire.

If a guy helps his team by behaving like a wuss, isn't that preferable to the Texas-bred tough guy who internalizes?

by guayzimi on May 23, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

I have a response to this

but it is probably best to not really go into it. Let's just say that this notion of 'seeming tough' has hurt Americans quite often in the past.

by Valatan on May 23, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Bad rap

Agree with the overdramatic wailing and stretcher points, however, that is why the refs have cards for the diving. Anyway, to your point about football,hockey fans I tend to disagree. There is no difference betwwen a "Soccer" diving in the box to get a free kick then "hockey" or "football" diving to get a penalty or a foul. All are trying to get an edge for their team. You could even include someone acting like they got hit by a pitch to get on base in the same arguement. I think soccer players have received a bad rap. The bottom line is that the refs should be handing more cards out for the acting or just don't allow the player to come in for that half if they act like a cry baby. In baseball, how many times do we see a player foul a pitch off their foot, stay down for 10 minutes, hit a single and then steal a base?

by Section8 on May 23, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

right on

great post. i was coming to a similar realization after the tiger's sweep, but V said it much, much better.

by bdub78 on May 23, 2007 12:51 PM EDT reply actions

Some sick part of me mind

kind of longs for the bad old days.

I'm pretty sure that time can make just about anything look good.

Everybody off the bandwagon!

by Alxfritz on May 23, 2007 1:11 PM EDT reply actions

One thing...

How bad does the decision to extend Edmonds for another year look right now? We could have had him for this year and then been able to part ways with him. Any chance Edmonds retires after this season? And if he does...do we owe him money from his contract?

by lopey986 on May 23, 2007 1:12 PM EDT reply actions

It looks pretty bad...

the whole thing was odd. I got the feeling they were rewarding him for past acheivements.

They had a $10 million option, so in order to save $2 million in '07 they put themselves on the hook for another $11 million, eight of which is to be paid in '08.

I don't have an MBA or one of those Country Day educations, but that seems like quite a bad business move.

It gets even worse when his power deteriorates to that of Aaron Miles.

No way he retires and walks away from guaranteed money. There's sort of a Player's Association rule against doing that. Even Albert Belle got paid long after everyone forgot about him.

by guayzimi on May 23, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

If they were rewarding him for past achievementsq

which is very well possible.. then I'm all for it. Nothing wrong with a little loyalty. As some here have pointed out, Edmonds is THE leader of this team. The benefits of Jimmy go beyond what he does in the batters box and out in CF.

by stltrav09 on May 23, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds

While I agree - the 2 year deal was probably pushing it and didn't make 100% business sense in and of itself, I think the bigger picture needs to be considered.

Edmonds really and truly took less money to play in St. Louis when he extended. And I know he deferred salary at least once, and maybe twice, to help the team win during a season. Throw in his obvious leadership in the march to the World Championship, and you have a team leader. In fact, one could argue that he's the face of the Cardinals during this run. (Longest tenure, outstanding hitter, outstanding fielder.)

So...the Cardinals could have let him walk, let him retire somewhere else - but they didn't. They wanted him to retire as a Cardinal. What's more, I think they rewarded him financially now for things he did in the past, like you said. While that may not make a ton of business sense, it's a great move in the long run. After all, the opposite message to free agents would have been "don't bother taking less to play here or deferring salary, because the team isn't going to thank you for it, ever."

by Robb on May 23, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with most...

of what you said, except that when he signed his extension he wasn't really taking a below market deal because there was no market for him: the Cardinals had exclusive rights to him with their option. If he hadn't signed, he was looking at a one year/$10 million contract for '07, then taking his chances for '08.

Plus, if they wanted to show everybody how nicely they treat their vets, they could have just picked up his option in July or August and avoided the nasty little spat that erupted between Edmonds and the club late last year. I distinctly remember him saying in the P-D in August sometime, I want my option picked up.

The part that's confusing about this is that not only did they give him what he wanted, but they gave a whole bunch more.

by guayzimi on May 23, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds

I'm not talking about when he extended this year - I'm talking about when he extended back in 2001. He was making chump change for a gold glove, 40 home run hitting center fielder in 02 through 05, but he did it to play in St. Louis.

by Robb on May 23, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds

Check that - it was May of 2000 that he signed his extension.

by Robb on May 23, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions

My bad...

yeah that was a great deal for the club, and it probably isn't such a terrible thing to indulge him a little now. My point is just that picking up the option seemingly would have made him equally happy, while being a much better deal for the club.

by guayzimi on May 23, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes

I can't disagree with that. It certainly would have made more sense financially. I think they thought he'd bridge the gap nicely to Rasmus (which he still may.)

by Robb on May 23, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions

But where would the money have gone?

I mean, next year, the $8 million in payroll...who were they going to spend it on? Is it really going to cost them getting the free agent they want out there on the market?

The Cardinals needs are another starting pitcher (if they aren't truly believing in Looper as an MLB 5th starter) assuming Mulder and Carpenter aren't going to have their arms fall off. Even then, there is alot of money already put into those two. Should the front office commit even more for another 30 something starter?

The other needs will be atleast 1 more outfield bat and a SS. I could guess that $8 million Edmonds is going to make could possibly go to a guy like Andruw Jones or Torii Hunter, however even in that case, Edmonds comes off the books after 2008. Structure whichever of those marque OF's contracts so that Edmonds $8 million in 2008 is taken into account.

More than likely, the front office took a look at the state of MLB outfielders, saw the Sarge Jr.'s of the world getting ridiculous contracts and decided to reward Edmonds with a little more than he was probably worth now, basing on what he has done for the franchise and that he could be an adequate stopgap in CF.

And, as long as he stays healthy, his contract isn't that bad of an idea. As long as he gets out there 4 out of every 5 games and provides solid defense and the occasional clutch hit he's not really blocking anyone. He's just bridging the gap to Rasmus.

That's the way I look at it though.

We aren't very good.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Great post, Valatan...

Baseball is truly a unique sport and you communicated that well.

What a refreshing post in an otherwise uninspiring season thus far. There ARE things to watch the Cardinals for even if they are losing. And, if they start winning, the fact that we were able to find enjoyment and purpose in the turbulent losses will make those games that are won even more satisfying.

by AndyB83 on May 23, 2007 1:53 PM EDT reply actions

Minor League Fun

Yes, that's a wonderful post!

Another great thing about baseball is the minor leagues. There are few people who don't live within a short drive of a minor league team. Those parks usually offer a nice, intimate atmosphere and are fairly reasonable on the wallet.

Some of my favorite childhood memories involved the Fourth of July at the old Ray Winder Field in Little Rock. Often my parents couldn't take off more than just that one day, so we had to find something local to do. We would catch a double-header and some fireworks and all was right with the world. I don't remember the scores of those games; I remember sharing baseball with my family.

While I still love minor league baseball in LR, it was more fun when we were still a Cardinals farm team. You could really connect with the players when you literally saw them come up through the ranks.

Baseball's farm system puts the game right in your own community -- makes them part of the family, if you will. The players in the Majors are so much fun to watch when you remember them as a skinny young kid in AA.

by cardsgirlinAR on May 23, 2007 3:30 PM EDT reply actions

A lot of

good thoughts here.

The 70's are when I came to love this team too. Read every book I could find on the Gas House Gang and teams of the 60's.

This team could still turn it around, but it needs to start now.

by cards13 on May 23, 2007 3:57 PM EDT reply actions

Sorry, Val

but I'm going to have to disagree.

I'm not saying everyone else should, but I'm going to keep rooting for the team like I always have.

Yes, it's great to look for individual accomplishments, but the fact is that we are still not out of this division, and we are definitely capable of playing better baseball (which we are beginning to show signs of). No one is seizing the division (Brewers had a chance, but have been falling back down to earth as of late), and with the schedule ahead of us, 9 games back in May is not too much. Call me optimistic, but I think our team still has a chance.

Look at the Astros a couple years back.
Look at the Twins last year.

Sure, their teams weren't the same as our, but they were back a comparible amount of games.

Think about it, if Scotty picks up (which we all know he's capable of doing), Pujols keeps becoming himself again, and Duncan continues to produce, we will have 3 (potential 30-100 area) sluggers in the middle of our order. Put that with an Eckstein that is finally hitting above .250, a late-blooming Molina, and a 70-80 RBI JEnc, and that's a pretty solid team, despite what Edmonds does at the plate.

Then look at our pitching -- Reyes has not been doing poorly, just getting no offensive support. But we're finally hitting! Carp will be back for the final stretch, and possibly even old-Mulder. Looper could continue his success and Wells, well, he honestly can't do much worse. As for Wainwright, I think we all have hope for him. Not to mention, our bullpen has been much overlooked by the poor play of everywhere else.

We can enjoy individual success stories, but we should still be optimisitic about the team as a whole. It's what we've always done, and there's no reason to change our ways . . .

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 23, 2007 4:31 PM EDT reply actions

Optimism

I agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't give up on them and that we should remain optimistic until it becomes mathematically impossible to pull off an upset. Milwaukie certainly didn't play as well as I thought they would in their last few series (not to mention that they've had easier matches so far). And everyone else in the division has been eneven.

But I also think with so many baseball stories and chat sites centered on winning as the only important payoff in baseball, we need to be reminded frequently of the more important goal of just plain enjoying the game and our team, whether they are winning or not.

Gordo in a P-D live chat today said something like St. Louis Fans have been and should be spoiled by a champpionship team--that, he said, is what makes St. Louis "the best baseball fans" in America. No, that makes them no different from New York Yankee fans.

I think this site has expressed extremely well what makes St. Louis Fans such great baseball enthusiasts. Maybe Gordo needs to read this thread!

by nycardfan on May 23, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Correction

That wasn't Gordo but Strauss' live chat. Sorry Gordo!

by nycardfan on May 23, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Definitely

"the more important goal of just plain enjoying the game and our team, whether they are winning or not."

my second team to the Cardinals is the Devil Rays, so I know exactly what you're saying.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 23, 2007 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Great post, Val

Gotta agree. Sometimes it is easy to lose sight of how great we have had it in this century (and I mean 2001 and forward) when the team doesn't look very good RIGHT NOW. But we have 100+ years of history which tell us that things will be better again. And that trumps nearly 100 years of futility, like (insert the name of any Cubs fan you know here) has endured. I also enjoy the individual successes too, like Yadi's 14 game hitting streak after last regular season's .216 BA.

by cardsgirl95 on May 23, 2007 8:16 PM EDT reply actions